帝亚吉欧（Guinness 所有者）的未来走向如何？

这档BBC播客在英国以外的地区由广告支持。

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside The UK.

我们正面临这个时代最严峻的挑战，这些挑战考验着我们的极限。

We face the greatest challenges of our time, challenges that test our limits.

有一个地方，我们可以找到答案，那里旅程开创新天地，联系解锁机遇，创新引发真正的改变，而我们的行动能推动世界前进。

There is a place where we can find answers, where journeys break new ground and connections unlock opportunities, where innovation can spark real change and our actions can push our world forward.

新加坡，商务活动能带来持久影响的地方。

Singapore, where business events can create lasting impact.

美国长期以来一直被怀疑干预他国选举，但如今是否有什么更肆无忌惮的行为呢？

The US has long been suspected of trying to sway elections in other countries, but is something more brazen going on these days?

我是阿斯玛·哈利德，是BBC《全球故事》播客的主持人之一。

I'm Asma Khalid, and I'm one of the hosts of the Global Story podcast from the BBC.

巴西指责美国干预其即将举行的投票。

Brazil has accused The US of meddling in its upcoming vote.

美国驳回了这一指控。

The US has dismissed the allegation.

但这些说法在美国长期干预他国选举的历史背景下，究竟意味着什么？

But how do these claims fit into the long legacy of American electoral interventions?

欢迎收听BBC官网或各大播客平台的《全球故事》节目。

Check out the global story on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

大家好，欢迎回到《商业日报》的“权力玩家”栏目。

Hello, and welcome back to power players from Business Daily.

这里面有你最爱的那款酒吗？

Now is your favorite tipple among this lot?

戈登。

Gordons.

我们开始吧？

Shall we?

不。

No

难怪健力士啤酒这么好喝。

wonder the Guinness is great.

配混酒的话，斯米诺是首选。

For every good mixer, there's only one Smirnoff.

百利甜。

Bailey's.

百利甜俱乐部。

Bailey's club.

大海召唤时，只有唯一的船长会回应。

When the ocean calls, only one captain answers.

摩根船长朗姆酒。

Captain Morgan's spiced rum.

第一款豪华龙舌兰酒，唐胡里奥，该你选了。

The first luxury tequila, Don Julio, make your move.

搭配完美的添加汤加雷和苏打水。

With the perfect taste of a Tanqueray and Sonic.

如果

If

如果威士忌能说话，尊尼获加黑牌就会唱歌。

whiskey could talk, Johnnie Walker Black Labels would sing.

对。

Yeah.

这些大牌饮品以及几十个其他品牌背后的公司就是帝亚吉欧，我们今天要聊的就是它，因为之前销售不佳、股价下跌，公司在新老板的带领下进行了一次大调整，这位老板的外号叫“大刀戴夫”。

The company behind all of those massive drinks brands and dozens more is Diageo, and we're looking at it today because after poor sales and a falling share price, it's only gone a bit of a reset under a relatively new boss whose nickname is Drastic Dave.

那么今天的问题是，大刀阔斧的改革能让这家酒业巨头重新增长吗？

So today, can a drastic touch get a drinks giant growing again?

对。

Yeah.

欢迎回到节目。

Welcome back to the program.

今天和你一起在英国的还有贝恩。

Bain again with you here today in The UK.

我是拉胡尔·坦登，也在英国，不过和我不同，我在另一个演播室。

I'm Rahul Tandon, also in The UK, but in a different studio from me.

而今天，我们请到了来自美国蒙大拿州的凯特·伯内特。

And today, we are joined from Montana in The United States by Kate Burnett.

凯特是记者，也是Feel Goods Insights的消费者洞察分析师，那是份酒业通讯。

Kate is a journalist, consumer insight analyst at Feel Goods Insights, a drinks industry newsletter.

她对帝亚吉欧很熟悉。

Knows Diageo well.

美国占了帝亚吉欧约40%的销售额，所以这也是今天故事的重要部分。

The US accounts for up to 40% of Diageo sales as well, so an important bit of the story today.

凯特，早上好。

Kate, morning to you.

这么早就要讲话，真是辛苦了。

Very early to be talking.

我知道你爱喝好酒，但你最喜欢的酒里面有没有帝亚吉欧旗下的？

Favorite boozes, I know, but have you got a a Diageo tipple among your favorites there?

在美国或北美，他们产品里有没有卖得最好的款？

Is there a bestseller in The United States or in North America from their range?

嗯，既然现在是我的早上，感觉确实应该在咖啡里加点百利甜。

Well, given that it's morning for me, it does feel like I should have some Baileys in my coffee.

但我觉得我还是选健力士吧。

But I think I think it'll be a Guinness for me.

我正想说，Tandon先生，估计你也是这么想的吧。

I was gonna say, mister Tandon, think you're probably on that stretch as well.

好吧，我得跟你说实话。

Well, I've gotta be honest with you.

你放那段片段的时候，我全都想要。

When you played that montage, I want them all.

今天天气很热。

It's a hot day.

节目期间你能喝多少？

And how many could you get through during the program?

你看，说实话。

Mean, look.

这些品牌在全球各地都是饮品的代名词，对吧？

They're they're brands that are so synonymous with drinks all over the world, aren't they?

嗯，所以我们觉得今天这个话题挺合适的，因为这是一家真正的全球性消费品公司，对吧，各位？

Well, that's why we thought this might be a good topic for today because this is a truly global consumer company, isn't it, guys?

不管你在哪里收听，比如在中国，可能喜欢他们的威士忌；或者在南非，经常喝他们的啤酒，比如Tusker或者Guinness，就像刚才大家开玩笑说的那样。

Whether you're listening in China and perhaps you like some of their whiskeys, perhaps you're listening to us in Southern Africa and you drink a lot of their beers like Tusker or Guinness as the guys have been joking about.

对。

Mhmm.

当然，还有欧洲，公司总部就在那里，还有北美。

Or, of course, Europe where the company's based from North America.

从名人龙舌兰酒品牌，到当地酒吧里的生啤，应有尽有。

Everything from celebrity tequila brands right down to beers on taps in your local pub.

我得插一句。

I'm gonna interject.

你们注意到Will没有回答这个问题吗？

Did you notice that Will didn't answer the question?

他最喜欢的饮料是什么？

His favorite drink?

别这样。

Come on.

我们有时候得催催他。

We gotta prod him at times.

你最喜欢的饮料是什么呢

What's your favorite drink out

在早上喝的？

of the morning?

威尔。

Will.

威尔。

Will.

我会和凯特一样选吉尼斯黑啤，肯定的。

I'd be with Kate on the Guinness, definitely.

凯特，要不你先来开场，带我们稍微回顾一下？

Kate, why don't you kick us off taking us back a little bit?

因为接下来我们会聊很多关于帝亚吉欧这家公司目前陷入的困境，以及他们最近几天一直在讨论的扭亏为盈计划。

Because we're gonna talk a lot about the sort of pickle Diageo, I guess, has got itself into as a company and the turnaround plan that company's been talking about in the last few days as a result.

但长期以来，它一直是全球酒类销售领域的绝对巨头之一。

But this was and has been for a long time one of the absolute giants of alcohol sales right around the world.

那么，我们是怎么走到今天这一步的呢？

So how do we kinda get here?

顺便提一下历史背景，还有疫情期间公司经历的那段爆发式增长。

And a bit of the history, I suppose, and that boom during the pandemic too that the company saw.

这家公司的全球规模真的难以用言语完全形容。

The scale of this company globally is really hard to overstate.

它在各大洲、众多市场以及酒精饮料的各个领域都有布局。

Presence on so many continents, in so many markets, in so many sectors of alcohol.

疫情期间，这家公司度过了非常不错的几年。

There was a great couple years for this company during the pandemic.

那时我们都在家，重新燃起了对酒的喜爱，可能现在想想有点后悔。

All of us were at home reconnecting with our love of alcohol in a way that perhaps we regret

几年后都还在为此付出代价。

all years later.

后来只能去健身房努力消耗掉。

Came to try and work off in the gym later.

对。

Yes.

大家都重新开始调酒，当然还有疫情解封后餐饮业的火爆。

We all got back to our cocktail making and of course the boost in the on premise after lockdowns lifted.

现在全球情况慢慢恢复正常了，经济环境也不太好，我们就看到明显的放缓。

And now that conditions have sort of normalized around the world and economics are less favorable, we see some real significant slowdowns.

显然，帝亚吉欧不是唯一面临经济困难的酒类公司，但他们的产品组合和公司本身有一些特殊情况，让他们比其他公司感受到更大的压力。

Obviously, Diageo not the only liquor company facing difficult economic conditions, but there are some specific things to their portfolio and their company that have made them feel those a little harder than others.

嗯，确实。

Well, right.

拉胡尔，凯特说得对，对吧？

Rahul, Kate's spot on on that, isn't she?

当时确实有这么一段时期，帝亚吉欧试图顺势而为，大量收购知名名人品牌，尤其是在凯特提到的那段时期里，大幅扩充了他们的烈酒产品线。

It was the fact that there was that time there, and Diageo was trying to ride that wave, buying up a lot of big celebrity in particular, really increasing his portfolio in spirits in particular right through that period that Kate was talking about.

是的。

Yeah.

他们确实这么做了。

They did.

他们推出了乔治·克鲁尼代言的那款，我平时喜欢小酌几杯的，对吧？

They brought the George Clooney one that I like to have a little tipple with, didn't they?

卡美罗、伊戈龙舌兰酒。

The gasamer, ego, tequila.

不过我觉得帝亚吉欧的故事特别有意思，因为中国面临的问题和北美的问题不一样。

But I think that the story of Diageo is such an interesting one because the problems in China are different to the problems in North America.

印度的增长情况和欧洲也不一样。

The growth in India is different to the growth in Europe.

好，那我们就来说说人吧。

Well, let's take on the people then.

多年来，我在世界广播电台采访过很多次的一位人士就是伊万·梅内塞斯，他是一位英国商人，掌管帝亚吉欧十多年，但很快公司就换了两任老板，先是美国人黛博拉·克鲁，她在疫情后那段时期上任不久就离职了，现在则是英国金融界所称的“大刀戴夫·刘易斯”。

For years and years and years certainly someone I interviewed many times here on the World Service was Ivan Menezes, the British businessman who had been the boss of Diageo for more than ten years and then very quickly then now had two bosses, the American Deborah Crewe, who came and went quite quickly in that post pandemic period, and now Drastic Dave Lewis as he's known in the British financial press.

叫他“大刀”是因为他做重大决策时喜欢精简业务，而这次他被请来似乎就是要干这个的。

Known as Drastic because he makes big decisions about slimming down businesses, and it seems like what he's been brought in to do here.

要不要听听他上周在伦敦市中心对帝亚吉欧投资者说的话？

Should we have a little of him speaking in Central London last week to Diageo's investors?

老实说，我们起步时，组织供应端和需求端之间存在相当大的脱节。

If I'm candid, where we started from, really quite a big disconnect between the supply side of the organization and the demand side of the organization.

很多重复劳动、浪费和低效。

A lot of duplication, lot of waste, lot of inefficiencies.

凯特？

Kate?

和帝亚吉欧的前员工聊过之后，有些人会指出公司内部存在重复和低效，但产品组合也面临困境。

Having spoken to former Diageo employees, some of them will flag duplication inefficiency within the company, but there are also struggles for the portfolio.

美国的一些主要品牌多年来一直在下滑。

Some of the lead brands in The US have been in decline for years.

我是说，所以斯米尔诺夫和皇摩根，特别是这两个，真的需要重点重振旗鼓。

I mean, Smirnoff and Captain Morgan, in particular, really need to be restored.

近年来，卡萨米戈斯和唐胡里奥这些品牌的信任度有所下降。

Trust in the Casamigos and Don Julio brands has declined in recent years.

去年，这些品牌因为产品中使用非纯龙舌兰添加剂而遭到了一些集体诉讼。

They were the subject of some class action lawsuits last year regarding the use of non agave additives in those products.

所以，再次提醒大家，龙舌兰是关键原料，如果你要喝正宗的龙舌兰，就是那种真正意义上的龙舌兰。

So, again, just for people to to be aware, agave, the kind of key ingredient if you're having, like, a proper tequila, you know, a tequila that actually is a tequila.

没错。

Correct.

所以我觉得去年的这些诉讼真的让消费者开始怀疑这些产品的品质，尤其是在价格这么高的情况下。更重要的是，他们想努力在即饮鸡尾酒市场上迎头赶上。

And so these lawsuits last year, I think, really had drinkers questioning the quality of these products, especially at such a premium price point, and then most significantly, trying to make up ground on ready to drink cocktails.

在美国，如果不算即饮鸡尾酒，烈酒销量其实并没有增长。

In The US, spirits have not grown if you remove RTDs from the equation.

所以酒精饮料的真正增长其实都靠预调鸡尾酒，而帝亚吉欧在推出这些产品方面比其他竞争对手慢了不少。

So really growth in spirits is RTDs, and Diageo has been quite slow to bring those to market compared to some other competitors.

卡萨米戈斯到现在才推出现成的玛格丽特预调酒，这简直就是白白丢钱。

The fact that Cosamigos is just launching an RTD margarita now, I mean, this is just money left on the table.

帝亚吉欧北美区CEO约翰·奥基夫也承认了这一点。

And John O'Keefe, CEO of Diageo North America, has acknowledged that.

预调鸡尾酒。

RTDs.

在英国我们也给这东西起了个很贴切的绰号。

We put a great nickname in The UK for that as well.

就叫‘金酒加罐子’，什么都涵盖进去了。

Gins and Tins is the catch all for that.

老天爷。

Oh god.

其实就是罐装鸡尾酒呗。

Cocktails in a can, basically.

完全没有。

At all.

所以那个叫‘疯狂戴夫’的家伙喜欢大幅降价。

So Drastic Dave likes to slash.

他有很多东西可以大幅降价。

He's got a lot that he could possibly slash.

凯特正在讨论美国的那些数据。

Kate's talking about those figures for The US.

咱们来把这些数据放到一个大背景里看看。

Let's put those into perspective.

在帝亚吉欧上一轮财报中，其在北美最大市场的销售额下降了百分之八。

In the last round of figures in Diageo, biggest market in North America, their sales fell by eight percent.

所以你看，在最重要的市场出现这种数字，Dave面临的挑战可不小。

So, you know, when you're seeing those numbers in your biggest market, Drastic Dave has a big challenge ahead of him.

顺便提一句，据说他本人特别讨厌这个外号。

We should make the point, by the way, that he absolutely hates this nickname, supposedly.

据说，我们有两个

Supposedly, we're two

到三个。这可不是我的外号，

to three It's not in my nickname,

对吧？

is it?

某种程度来说。

Some point.

所以我们到时候就直接问他这个问题。

So we will ask him exactly that.

但这正是转型的原因，对吧，凯特？

But that was the reason for the pivot, wasn't it, Kate?

他们请来了黛博拉·克鲁，她本身就是北美人士。

They went to Deborah Crew, a North American herself.

她被请来就是为了应对美国瞬息万变的消费趋势。

She was brought in to address really rapidly changing trends in The US.

那你有没有看到美国那边饮酒习惯的变化？

So do you been seeing those that changing kind of drinking habits in The United States?

当然有。

Absolutely.

有一段时间，一些饮酒习惯的变化，特别是高端化和龙舌兰酒的兴起，确实让帝亚吉欧受益不少。

And for a period of time, some changing drinking habits, particularly premiumization and the rise of tequila beverages really benefited Diageo.

但后来风向变得很快。

And then tides changed very quickly.

我们都从疫情中走出来了。

We all came out of the pandemic.

我们恢复了正常的生活习惯。

We resumed normal habits.

经济变得不太稳定。

The economy got shakier.

情况变化很快，而帝亚吉欧这艘全球巨轮，在这些新变化面前没能及时调整过来。

Things changed rapidly, and Diageo, this huge global ship couldn't quite right itself fast enough in these new winds.

你知道吗，当我跟儿子还有他的朋友一起出去的时候，我经常在晚上结束的时候发现我喝了不少，而他们几乎没怎么喝。

You know, when I go out with my son and I go out with his friends, I often look at the end of the evening and realize that I've been drinking a fair bit, and they've hardly been drinking at all.

所以现在确实有那种争论，对吧？

And so there is that debate, isn't there, at the moment?

年轻人是不是和上一代人喝酒的方式不一样了？

Are young people drinking differently from previous generation?

让我们听听两位来自伦敦的年轻戒酒者最近在接受BBC《世界怎么了》节目采访时的说法。

Let's hear from a couple of young teetail fillers in London speaking recently to the BBC's What in the World program.

现在呢，我完全不喝酒了。

Today, I don't drink at all.

对。

Mhmm.

但在我二十出头的时候，我确实感觉到一些社会压力，比如工作上的应酬或者大学里大家都以喝酒为常态。

But when I was in my early twenties, I think I felt maybe a bit of, like, societal pressure, you know, work drinks or being at uni where it was the norm.

而且我觉得新冠封锁让我有了点信心去说，好吧。

And I think COVID lockdown just gave me a bit of confidence to say, okay.

让我远离这个。

Let me step away from this.

这不一定是我想要做的。

It's not necessarily something I wanna do.

我大约八年前，26岁时戒酒了，那是因为酒精对我的心理健康产生了影响。

I stopped drinking about eight years ago now when I was 26, and that was because the effect that was having on my mental health.

所以我二十多岁时心理健康问题很严重，陷入了酗酒和借酒消愁的恶性循环。

So I really struggled with my mental health in my twenties and got into a real cycle of, like, binge drinking and drinking to feel less anxious, etcetera.

是的，我到了和酒精关系很成问题的地步。

And, yeah, I got to a point where my relationship with alcohol was quite problematic.

所以在2018年，我决定到此为止。

So in 2018, I decided that was it.

我彻底戒了，一直到现在。

I was stopping altogether, and here we are.

这就是你在美国看到的情况吗？

Is that what you're seeing then in The States, really?

因为世界各地情况不同，在美国，你得到21岁才能合法喝酒。

Because it it's different in different parts of world because in the in The US, you can't drink till you're 21 officially.

所以我们说有些地方的年轻人不喝酒，其实他们本来就要等到更晚才能喝酒。

So when we're saying that young people aren't drinking in some parts of the world, they can't drink till later anyway.

没错。

This is correct.

而Z世代群体中，在美国只有大约一半的人

And the Gen z cohort, only about half of them in The U.

在美国

S.

已经到达法定饮酒年龄。

Are of legal drinking age.

实际上在美国，

Actually here in The U.

未成年饮酒的比例多年来一直在大幅下降。

S, rates of underage drinking have been in drastic decline for decades.

自1984年以来，这个数字基本上减半了，所以年轻人喝酒的时间更晚了。

They've basically been cut in half since 1984, so young people are waiting longer to drink.

他们一直等到21岁，即便是到了那个年纪，也得慢慢适应。

They're waiting till they're 21 and even then they kind of have to ease into it.

另外，我注意到酒精饮品价格不便宜，而且我们还在等这一代人真正进入收入稳定期。

Also alcohol is expensive, I've noticed, and we're waiting for that generation to really mature into their earning.

有一些很好的数据显示，随着他们进入二十多岁，饮酒率正在趋于正常，但我们对这一代人还有很多不了解，还不知道他们未来会怎么做。

There's some good data to show that their drinking rates are normalising as they kind of move into their twenties, but again we still have so much of this generation that we we don't know how they're gonna behave yet.

您正在收听的是BBC世界服务的《商业日报》之《权力玩家》节目。

You're listening to power players from Business Daily on the BBC World Service.

美国长期以来一直被怀疑试图影响其他国家的选举，但最近是不是有更明目张胆的行为呢？

The US has long been suspected of trying to sway elections in other countries, but is something more brazen going on these days?

我是BBC《全球故事》播客的主持人之一。

I'm, and I'm one of the hosts of the Global Story podcast from the BBC.

巴西指责美国干预其即将到来的投票。

Brazil has accused The US of meddling in its upcoming vote.

美国否认了这一指控。

The US has dismissed the allegation.

但这些说法在美国干预选举的长期传统中又该怎么看？

But how do these claims fit into the long legacy of American electoral interventions?

去 bbc.com 或者在你听播客的地方找《全球故事》吧。

Check out the global story on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

今天，我和拉胡尔邀请了凯特·伯纳特，她是美国蒙大拿州Feel Good Insights的记者和消费者洞察分析师。我们来聊聊全球酒业巨头帝亚吉欧那十亿美元的转型计划，这个计划就是针对刚才所说的那些饮酒习惯的变化。

Today, Rahul and me are in the company of Kate Barnott, journalist and consumer insights analyst at Feel Good Insights in Montana in The United States, and we're looking at the global alcohol brand Diageo's billion dollar turnaround plans in the face of those changing drinking habits they've just been talking about.

我们聊了不少烈酒，但啤酒一直在涨，尤其是帝亚吉欧啤酒系列里最有名的那个品牌。

We've talked a lot about spirits, but beer has been booming, particularly its biggest name, I guess, in its beer portfolio.

对吧？

Right?

你是那种喝啤酒时会分G的人吗？

Are you one of these people who splits the g?

我试过分G，成不成功就不一定了。

I've tried to split the g to varying degrees of success.

如果大家还不知道我们在说什么，这里有一段来自美国NBC《今日秀》节目的片段，讲的就是这个“分G挑战”。

Just if no one doesn't know what we're talking about, here's a little bit from the Today program on NBC in The United States about the splitting the G challenge, I guess.

我们来聊聊现在TikTok上最火的啤酒潮流之一，叫做“分G挑战”。

Let's talk about one of the biggest beer trends on tiktok right now it's called split the G.

这个潮流可能会让健力士的销量大涨，从艾德·希兰到现在的霍恩都在参与。

This trend it it might be spiking sales of Guinness everyone from Ed Sheeran and now Horn.

他们都在加入这个挑战。

They're they're hopping on the challenge.

这个挑战就是，喝黑啤的人先喝一大口，然后试着让杯中的酒和泡沫正好对齐健力士标志中字母G的中间。

This is where stout sippers take a big first goal and try to get the liquid and foam in the glass perfectly aligned with the middle of the g in the Guinness logo.

所以我们想……

So we thought

我想澄清一下，这个“分G挑战”不是帝亚吉欧发明的。

I would like to clarify that splitting the g, Diageo didn't invent this.

对吧？

Right?

这是那种自然而然就火起来的东西，

This was something that kind of organically bubbled up and

但他们倒是狠狠地抓住了这个机会。

had Except they rode it pretty hard.

是吧？

Right?

他们确实抓住得很紧。

They rode it hard.

但他们能利用这个机会，是因为在美国和全球范围内，几十年来他们一直专注于酒吧体验，用对的杯子和正确的倒法。

But the reason they were able to capitalize on that is because in The US and globally, they've, for decades, focused on that bar experience with the right glassware and the proper pour.

他们和生啤有很强的关联，所以当这件事自然发生时，他们位置很好，有现成的条件去利用它。

They have this very strong association with draft beer and so when this naturally happened they were well positioned, they had the infrastructure to capitalize on it.

话虽如此，健力士在美国

That said, Guinness in The U.

算是家喻户晓的品牌，但并不是主流标配。

S, it's kind of a household brand but it's not the standard.

你不可能随便走进一家街角酒吧就能看到健力士。

You cannot walk into just any corner bar and expect to see Guinness.

这向新一代人介绍了健力士，他们可能以为它又黑又浓又粘又烈，而这种方式是品牌自己策划的任何广告活动都无法做到的。

This was introducing a new generation who probably thought it was dark and heavy and sticky and alcoholic to Guinness in in a way that no ad campaign that the brand thought up ever could have done.

而且我觉得社交媒体已经成了其中非常重要的一部分。

And I think that social media thing has become such a huge part of it.

对我来说，我真的不敢相信眼前发生的这种变化，这种老男人的饮品现在竟然成了地球上最时尚的饮品之一。

And for me, I I just can't believe the change that has unfolded in front of me that this old man's drink has now become one of the most fashionable drinks on this planet.

当我们谈到帝亚吉欧遇到麻烦时，健力士的销量在最近的数据中上涨了10.9%。

When we're talking about Diageo having problems, Guinness sales up 10.9% in its last figures.

考虑到他们其他产品的表现，这真是非同寻常。

That's extraordinary when you look at the backdrop of what's happening with the rest of their products.

嗯，Grain，你是帝亚吉欧负责全球健力士营销的IRS高管。

Well, Grain, you wafer is the IRS executive at Diageo responsible for marketing Guinness worldwide.

虽然我们在全球150多个国家销售，但在世界许多高端啤酒市场上，我们的份额非常小。

Although we're sold in over a 150 countries around the world, we are very small in many of the premium beer markets in the world.

而且在很多市场，我们其实根本没有进入。

And in many markets as well, we're actually not represented at all.

即便在美国，健力士在精酿啤酒中也只排第12位，所以我们在这些市场还有很大的增长空间。

Even in The US, Guinness is only number 12 within premium beer, so significant headroom for us to grow further within those markets.

我们的目标是让健力士成为美国排名前十的精酿啤酒品牌，同时进一步巩固我们在欧洲关键市场的地位。

And our ambition is for Guinness to become a top 10 premium beer brand in The US and to further strengthen our position in key European markets.

此外，我们也看到了在印度和巴西这样的增长型精酿啤酒市场上进一步拓展的绝佳机会。

Beyond that, we obviously also see further exciting opportunities to expand in growing premium beer markets such as India and Brazil.

好的，我们一会儿再聊印度。

Well, we'll come to India in a moment.

这是针对你说的美国市场，凯特。

That's to your point there about The US, Kate.

确实。

Absolutely.

而且即便是在美国，这个我们认为已经很成熟的市场里，显然还是有增长空间的。

And there is clearly room for growth even in what we might consider mature markets for that brand here in The US.

这正好引出了戴夫·刘易斯和帝亚吉欧团队在这个十亿美元转型计划中可能会采取的行动。

Well, that takes neatly, doesn't it, to what Dave Lewis and the team at Diageo might do in this billion dollar turnaround.

那我们再来听听戴夫·刘易斯怎么说，然后再展开讨论。

Let's hear from Dave Lewis then again on exactly that, and then let's expand on that.

我们今天分享给大家的计划，是一个由内而外的转型。

The plan that we're sharing with you today is an organic turnaround.

我们很清楚市场上有各种猜测，很多人也在写一些东西。

Very aware of lots of speculation, lots of things that people write in the marketplace.

说清楚一点，我们既不买，也不卖。

Being clear, we're not buying, we're not selling.

这是一个基于自身业务的转型。

This is an organic turnaround.

我们有足够的资源来推动公司转型。

We have what we need to turn the business around.

这里说的是整个烈酒品类，不只是国际烈酒或高端烈酒，而是包括即饮酒在内的全价格带。

Total Spirits, not international spirits or premium spirits are, total spirits, full price ladder, including RTDs.

这是帝亚吉欧未来最重要的市场。

That's market number one for Diageo going forward.

高端啤酒方面，健力士排第二。

Premium beer with Guinness market number two.

凯特，那你预期会怎样呢？

Kate, what do you expect then?

刘易斯先生能搞定这场翻身仗吗？具体会呈现什么局面？

Can mister Lewis pull this slim down off, and what does it look like?

用“大幅削减”这个词，程度到底有多深？特别是针对烈酒产品线的精简，可能会做到什么地步？

How how drastic to use that that word once again, doing that slim down, particularly the spirits portfolio might be?

他说他们不会出售资产。

Well, he says they're not selling.

所以我认为在美国市场，我真正需要看到的是核心品牌实现企稳。

So I think here in The US, what I'm really needing to see is stabilization in the core brands.

如果摩根船长、唐胡里奥、卡萨米戈斯和斯米诺这些品牌继续下滑，那未来的路真的很难走。

If Captain Morgan, and Don Julio, Casamigos, and Smirnoff maintain these declines there's really very little path forward.

所以我们真的需要看到这些核心品牌稳定下来，同时也要快速响应消费者现在的需求，比如即饮产品、有趣的口味、合适的包装形式。

So we're gonna really need to see stabilization in those core brands alongside quick response to where consumers are at now with ready to drink, with interesting flavors, with the right kinds of formats.

他们需要很快跟上节奏。

They need to get up to speed really quickly.

所以如果内部重组能让核心品牌稳定下来，并且创新能跟上消费者的需求，那我认为转型就能实现。

So if the internal restructuring allows stabilization of core brands and innovation that meets where consumers are, then I think the turnaround happens.

但这同时要处理的事情太多了。

But that's a lot to take on all at once.

还有在非洲，我觉得他们想发展健力士。

And I think in Africa, want to develop Guinness.

那里增长非常快。

It's growing so rapidly there.

我觉得在印度，他们也想发展健力士。

I think in India, they want to develop Guinness as well.

他们也知道尊尼获加是个大品牌。

They know that they've also got a huge product in Johnnie Walker.

目前龙舌兰酒在印度确实增长很快。

Tequila is really growing in India at this point in time.

给你举个例子吧。

Let's give you a flavor.

孟买是我最喜欢的城市之一。

Mumbai is one of my favorite cities.

那里有很多家人。

Got lots of family there.

我们的财经记者阿克莎娜·舒克拉采访了当地一些人，聊了聊他们的饮酒习惯。

Our business correspondent, Akshana Shukla, spoke to a few people there about their drinking habits.

你好。

Hi.

我是内哈·基尔纳尼。

I'm Neha Khilnani.

我喝龙舌兰酒，加水加冰，心情好的时候，不在乎体重的话，也会喝啤酒。

I drink tequila, water, ice, and on some good days when I don't really care about my weight, beer.

印度现在确实在经历这种趋势，我们既在升级消费，也在支持本土品牌。

India is actually observing this whole pattern where we are trading up, but we are trading local as well.

以前我们喝酒是为了显得国际化，但现在说实话，全世界都在喝我们的东西。

So where we used to drink to feel international, now honestly the world is drinking us.

在龙舌兰酒方面，我还是喜欢我的Don Julio，但其他时候，我喝印度本土的，比如伦敦淡啤或者普通日子里的Kingfisher，甚至和办公室同事一起喝也是。

In the tequila space, I still like my Don Julio, but otherwise I drink India like a London Pilsner beer or maybe a Kingfisher on regular days even with office colleagues.

那还是我们的首选。

That is still our go to.

我叫Lokinondan Burua，是一名电影制作人，35岁。

My name is Lokinondan Burua and I'm a filmmaker, 35 years old.

我以前是喝威士忌的，但来到孟买后，我喝威士忌少了很多，原因有两个。

So I used to be a whisky drinker and after coming to Bombay, I have reduced drinking whisky a lot because of two reasons.

一个是价格太贵，在孟买威士忌价格高得离谱，而且孟买的天气更适合喝啤酒，你知道的，啤酒是冰的，而孟买总是很热。

One is price is very expensive, exorbitant in Bombay and also in Bombay weather beer suits more to people, it's sort of you know it's chilled and Bombay is always hot.

印度一直以来主要是喝威士忌的国家，但新一代人，我看到了很多饮酒习惯上的变化。

Predominantly India has always been a whisky drinking country but with the new generation I have seen a lot of change in terms of drinking habit.

很多新一代的人喝金酒，伏特加汤力鸡尾酒现在特别流行，金酒其实正在慢慢占领市场。

A lot of new generation people drink gin, vodka tonic cocktails are very popular nowadays and gin is actually sort of taking over the market.

我也这么觉得。

That's what I see.

我最近去的时候，周围好多人都在喝金酒。

When I was there recently, there was a lot of gin drinking going along around me.

我觉得帝亚吉欧在印度和世界其他地方还面临一个挑战，就是这些国家在打造自己的品牌。

I think another challenge for Diageo in India and other parts of the world is these countries are developing their own brands.

你知道，现在世界上一些最好的威士忌品牌其实是印度品牌，而且以前他们主打的是低端市场，但现在也开始进军高端了。

You know, some of the best whiskey brands in the in the world now are Indian brands, and they are used to operate at the lower segments of the market, but they are coming in at that higher end as well.

所以竞争非常激烈。

So there is huge competition.

所以我觉得这可不是理所当然的事。

So I think it's not just a given.

不能因为非洲和印度的人口基数增长很快，就认为帝亚吉欧一定能从中受益。

Just because the demographics of Africa and India are growing quickly, the Diageo is gonna benefit from that.

他们必须提供当地人想要的产品。

They're gonna have to give products that people want there.

拉胡尔，你花了很多精力在罐装鸡尾酒上。

And Rahul, putting a lot in, making your cocktails in a can.

对。

Yeah.

听着。

Listen.

我其实不太乐观。

I I'm not optimistic.

我的意思是，从我身边的年轻人来看，我自己有两个孩子，也去过世界很多地方，我觉得现在的年轻人更注重健身了。

I mean, from what I see from young people around me, having two kids and, you know, traveling to lots of different parts of the world, I think kids, you know, more interested in fitness now.

他们对自己吃进身体里的东西更加在意了。

They are much more careful about what they're putting inside their body.

所以，Drastic Dave在扭亏为盈方面确实有很出色的业绩记录。

So Drastic Dave has a great track record in terms of what he has done of turning around companies.

但如果市场本身在萎缩，扭转一家公司并不容易。

But it's not easy to turn around a company if the market itself is shrinking.

我认为这将是一个巨大的挑战。

And I think that is going to be the huge challenge.

我们这里说的虽然不完全像烟草行业，但我认为我们正在谈论的行业，即使在新市场，也可能不会像过去那样成功。

We're not quite looking at the cigarette industry here, but I think we are looking at an industry that maybe isn't going to be as successful even in those new markets as it has been in the past.

拉胡尔提到的健康和健身是这一切的重要部分。

The health and fitness that Rahul mentioned is a big part of all of this.

如果你或你认识的任何人受到我们今天讨论的问题的影响，特别是关于饮酒的问题，那么bbc.com/actionline是一个可以找到你所在地区提供建议和支持的组织列表的地方。

And if you or anybody you know has been affected by any of the issues we talked about today, certainly around their use of alcohol, then bbc.com forward /actionline is a place where you can find a list of organizations in your part of the world who can offer advice and support around that.

非常有趣。

Been fascinating.

看看接下来会发生什么会很有趣，他是否会变成只是戴夫，尽管实际上他在英国是爵士。

Be really interesting to see what happens next and whether he just becomes just Dave, although he is sir, actually, here in The UK.

无论是只是戴夫·刘易斯还是“激进戴夫”，或者无论哪种方式，他能否成功。

Whether just Dave Lewis or Drastic or whichever way around can pull it off.

非常感谢今天和我们一起的凯特·贝内特，来自Feel Good Insights。

But big thanks to Kate Bennett who's been with us today from Feel Good Insights.

拉胡尔也一直在这个节目里。

The Rahul is always here on the program.

当然，也感谢你收听《商业日报》的《权力玩家》。

And, of course, to you for listening to power players here on Business Daily.

如果你还没订阅，请记得订阅。

If you don't already, please do subscribe.

如果有机会，给我们一个五星好评吧。

And if you got a chance, give us a five star review.

如果你写了评论，我们都会认真阅读。

And if you write something, we read all of your thoughts.

我们很期待收到你的宝贵反馈。

We would love a lovely bit of feedback on that.

这也能帮助更多人发现这个播客。

It does also help other people find the podcast.

非常感谢您的收听。

Thanks so much for listening.