An Anthropological Lens On Leadership In Life Sciences With Bunka's Monika Sumra, Ph.D.

其实有好几方面。

So there's there's a couple of things.

首先，文化不只是你刚才说的那些价值观宣言，它体现在具体的行为上。

Firstly, culture isn't just, you know, the value statements that you were just talking about are visible behaviors.

就像我之前说的，文化是建立在更深层的东西上的。

It's really built, like I said earlier, from deeper layers.

它来自人们的假设、信念、理解、行为和行动，所有这些方面。

It's built from assumptions, beliefs, interpretation, behaviors, actions, all those things.

而这些层面都深受人们所处环境的影响。

And all of those layers are are really shaped by conditions that people are operating in.

对吧？

Right?

所以经常有人问我这个问题。

So I always say people ask me this question often.

Monika，你该怎么改变企业文化呢？

Monika, how do you change culture?

我也写过一篇关于这个的文章。

I wrote an article on this too.

我总说，想改变文化，根本别想着去‘修复’它，因为文化是没法直接改变的。

And I always say you don't fix the best way to change culture is don't fix it because you can't change culture directly.

文化是一种自然涌现的东西。

Culture is an emergence.

它会自己冒出来。

It emerges.

对吧？

Right?

你真正该做的，是去调整那些塑造信念和行为的条件。

So what you have to do is you've gotta work on the conditions shaping beliefs and behavior.

对吧？

Right?

当你去改变这些条件，等它们慢慢变了，文化自然也就跟着变了。

When we work on those conditions and those conditions start to shift then, then culture shifts.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

So Mhmm.

一旦文化变了，绩效就会变得更可预测、更持久。

When culture shifts now, not per the now performance becomes more predictable and sustainable.

这正是每家公司都在追求的。

And that that's what every company is looking for.

我一进门，

I walk in the door.

就知道接下来几天会怎样。

I know how many days it's gonna go.

我知道它能为市场带来什么。

I know what it can deliver to the market marketplace.

我知道团队的能力有多强。

I know what my people are capable of.

这正是每个人都想要的确定性。

It's that a surety everybody's looking for.

但当你想改变文化时，其实文化根本不是个具体的东西。

But when you're trying to change culture because culture doesn't actually exist as a thing.

它只是其他所有东西的产物。

It is a product of everything else.

所以你根本没法直接去改变它。

So you really can't change that.

我常拿果冻来打比方，想塑造好的文化，你的输入就得像果冻一样。

I I often the analogy I often use about culture is when you're trying to create the right culture or your inputs, your culture has to be kinda like Jell O.

对吧？

Right?

你想想果冻，你得先做个模具，再倒进去。

And if you think you think about Jell O, like, you make you make a mold on Jell O.

它才会成型。

It has a form.

对吧？

Right?

它确实有个形状。

It's got this form.

你能看到，但它会晃动。

You can see it, but it it wobbles.

对吧？

Right?

它里面本身就掺了弹性。

It has flex doped into it.

所以文化也得有这种弹性。

So culture must have flex doped into it.

很多时候，我觉得人们总想把文化定义成固定不变的东西。

And a lot of the times, I think people are looking to define culture as something fixed and permanent.

但文化本质上就是动态的。

And by its very nature, culture is dynamic.

它一直在变。

It changes all the time.

所以我总说，文化本身不是你能去改的东西。

So I always say it can't be a thing that you change.

得变的是你带进去的那些东西。

It's the things you bring into it that have to change.

对。

Yeah.

我给你举个特别清楚的例子。

I'll give you a very clean example.

你想想看。

Think about it.

新来的领导，想法不一样，经历也不一样。

A new leader comes on board with a different thought process, different experience.

他们自然会带来一套全新的视角。

They're gonna bring a different lens into the mix.

对吧？

Right?

这肯定会带来变化。

And that's gonna change things.

人们会说：这可不是我们的文化。

And and people will say, well, that's not our culture.

我们一向不是这么做的。

That's not the way we do it.

我们一直都是这样做的。

We do it like this.

文化的核心就是变化。

The culture is all about change.

就是要不断调整、与时俱进。

It's all about moving and grooving.

所以一旦你建立了它，就回到我开头说的了。

So once you create it goes back to what I said right at the beginning.

得先打造出这样的环境。

It's the environment that has to be created.

文化自然就会从这环境中长出来。

The culture will emerge from that.

所以我们在招聘、调整流程、做各种组织调整的时候，都得问自己：这些做法是不是都在支撑我们想要的环境？

And so when we're hiring people, when we're changing processes, when we're doing all these things for the organization, we've gone to ask ourselves, is are all these things that are being serviced in the environment that we want?

因为正是这个环境，才会孕育出能带来我们想要的业绩的文化。

Because it is that our environment that's gonna create the culture that's gonna give us the performance we're looking for.

所以这就是我——作为一个人类学家——思考问题的方式，你懂的。

So that's how it you know, I guess, the discipline to think about how I as an anthropologist think about it.

不只是作为人类学家，作为我自己这个创业者、企业领导者，我就是这么想的，这对我而言就是真理。

And not just as an anthropologist, as a business leader myself, as someone who's operates my own business, this is the way I think, and this is the way it is for me.

对吧？

Right?

这就是我们最看重的视角。

And that's the that's the lens we love.

所以，你说说你对这个怎么看？

And so, yeah, I wonder what you have to say about that.

对。

Yeah.

其实我想问问你，你之前提到过民族志，我记得大学上社会学入门课的时候，就特别被民族志吸引。

Well, I mean, I I wanted to actually ask you about you mentioned ethnography earlier, and I I remember, you know, being in a kind of sociology one zero one class in in college, and I was always really taken by ethnography.

我觉得这事儿特别有意思，但感觉现在文化上我们好像越来越偏向大数据了，对人类学的关注反而少了。

I thought it was super interesting, but I I feel like culturally, we've kind of moved away from anthropology with more of a focus, I think, on large quantitative data sets.

我提这个是因为，想请你，Monika，给不太了解民族志的人解释一下，这到底是什么，它又是怎么跟你们在生命科学公司做的工作联系起来的。

And the reason I bring this up is I would love to have you, Monika, explain what ethnography is for folks that that maybe aren't don't don't know what what that particular field is and kind of how that plugs into the work that you do, with life sciences companies.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

不过我也想说，定量数据真的特别重要。

And I do wanna say, though, that the quantitative data is extremely important.

当然了。

So Sure.

没错。

Absolutely.

这不是非此即彼的事。

It's not a one or the other.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yes.

正是如此。

Exactly.

传统的社会文化人类学家，他们一直关注的是你刚才说的那些社会行为和相关的东西。

And I traditional anthropologists, if you look at socio socio cultural anthropologists, they're always looking at, you know, the social, the behavior, all that stuff that I talked about.

但我们做民族志的方式有点不一样。

But we we do ethnography a little bit differently.

我们两者都做，因为我们是做生意的。

We do both because we're business people.

我们明白，归根结底，关键还是看钱袋子。

We understand that the numbers you know, at the end of the day, it's about the dollars and cents.

关键是利润。

It's about the profit.

关键是把订单拿下来。

It's about getting that order.

关键是把货及时送到客户手里。

It's about getting stuff out to the client.

还有召回风险和偏差问题，这些都很重要。

It's about potential recalls and and deviations.

这些当然很重要，但我们看它们的时候，心里想着的是：嗯，

Those things are very important, but we look at those through the through the lens of saying, okay.

这其实透露了更多关于行为和趋势的信息。

This is telling us a lot more about the behaviors and shape.

所以我们把这两者结合起来。

So we we take them together.

说白了，民族志就是系统地观察工作实际是怎么开展的。

So ethnography really in very simple terms, it's really the systematic observation of how work actually happens.

这就是我们看待问题的方式。

That's how we may look at.

对吧？

Right?

对我们来说，实际发生的事，就等于那些数字。

So for us, it's actually, what happens means it means the numbers.

意味着数据收集。

It means the data collection.

意味着我们怎么看待这些数据。

It means how we look at the data.

我们该怎么解读这些数据？

How do we interpret the data?

它指的是定性和定量的结合。

It means qualitative quantitative.

就是全部都要包括。

It means all of it.

对吧？

Right?

所有这些加一块儿。

The whole shebang.

所以我们不只是从民族志的角度来看问题。

So we're not just looking at things ethnographically.

我们谈的是民族志本身。

We're we're talking about ethnography.

我们不是只看纸上写的那些设计流程。

We're not looking just at how things are designed on paper.

我可以想象一个流程图。

So I could think of a process flow.

我们关注的不是理想流程该是什么样，而是每个环节实际发生了什么，每个步骤的环境是怎样的，人与人之间在行为上、科学上、社会层面上怎么互动，甚至从流程本身来看，合规性是怎么落实的。

We're not just looking at, you know, what is the ideal process, we're looking at what happens in each step in the process, what was the environment in each of the steps of the process, what happens in between behaviorally, scientifically, socially, you know, and even from a process perspective, you know, regulatory compliance.

所以我们团队会把这一切都摸清楚。

So our team looks up all that.

对吧？

Right?

我们不是让你只在纸上画个流程图就完事了，而是要搞清楚人们实际是怎么做的。

So we're not just letting you design a paper from point to point and not how people say it happens, but what actually happens.

明白吗？

Okay?

尤其是那些容易产生歧义、人们得自己想办法补漏的环节。

Especially and though at those points, you know, where interpretation really creeps in or people compensate for ambiguity.

对吧？

Right?

如果某个地方不明确，他们到底会怎么处理？

So if something's unclear, what is it that they do?

他们会往上反映吗？

Do they escalate it?

他们会绕开这个问题吗？

Do they work around it?

你懂的。

You know?

他们会抬头求助吗？

Do they do they do they put their head up?

他们会去问更有经验的人吗？

Do they ask somebody who's more experienced?

他们到底怎么应对这种模糊不清的情况？

What are they doing to get past that ambiguity?

对吧？

Right?

所以你看，虽然我讲的都是行为层面的事，但影响可不小。

So you can see that even though what I'm telling you is behavioral in itself, it has a very big impact.

对吧？

Right?

这其实很有力量，根本不是什么软性的东西。

It's powerful, so it's not really soft.

实际上，这可能非常关键。

It's actually probably very critical.

对吧？

Right?

对我们来说，这就是发现系统中那些看不见的摩擦，以及那些看不见的卓越之处的方式。

So for us, that's the way we we surface this invisible kind of friction in the system and also the invisible areas of, you know, greatness in the system.

对吧？

Right?

我们发现的可不只是摩擦。

It's not just friction that we we find too.

我们还发现，天啊。

We find, wow.

这会不会是一个最佳实践？

This could this be a best practice?

比如，其他地方也有这样的做法吗？

Like, is this repeated somewhere else?

这儿做事的方式真的太厉害了。

This is really incredible the way things are done here.

所以我们不是只从一个角度去看。

So we're not just looking at it from one lens.

而是要全面看。

It's the whole thing.

所以这就是为什么我们做民族志研究时，会用一种不太传统的方式——如果只从行为角度来想的话，我们得把所有东西都看全。

So this is why when we do ethnography, I will say is is I would say the nontraditional way, if we were to think about it in terms of how it would be done just behaviorally, we need to look at it all.

所有因素都得考虑进去。

It's it's all of it has to be taken into consideration.

最终我们得出的结论，之所以这么独特，就是因为这个。

That's what the outcome we gave is very unique at the end of the day.

对吧？

Right?

因为我们实际上是在展示这种行为和这个结果是有关联的，而大多数人之所以能理解，是因为你跟他们讲了事情是怎么发展到这一步的。

Because we're actually showing this particular behavior is connected to this result, and that in most people, like, because you tell them the story of how it got there.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Right.

这可不是什么软性的东西。

That's not soft.

这是一条非常清晰的路径。

That's that's a clear path.

你必须深入下去才能理解这一点。

And you have to go deep to understand that.

我的意思是，当我想到民族志的时候，我想到的是人类学家跑到一个小部落里，一住就是好几个月，把那里每一个细微的行为都记录下来，就为了搞清楚那个特定情境里到底发生了什么。

I mean, I when I was thinking about ethnography, you know, I'm thinking anthropologist who goes and lives with a small tribe for months at a time and really catalogs every tiny little behavior that's happening in that dynamic to try to understand what's happening in that specific example.

所以当你谈到理解环境、理解领导力，再把大规模的定量分析和深入的民族志研究结合起来，去剖析公司里那些个体行为和变量时，我觉得这招特别有力。

And so, when you talk about understanding environment, understanding leadership and combining kind of a larger quantitative analysis with a really deep ethnographic study of the, you know, the variables, you know, the individual actors within a company that strikes me as powerful.

我想换个话题，聊聊你能给莫尼卡举些例子，看看公司里哪些职能部门能用上这套方法，还能量化出效果。

I I wanna move on to some of the examples that you might be able to offer Monika on functional areas within a company, you know, where you can apply this kind of framework and then measure results.

我们或许可以谈谈制造部门，不过你要是有别的更合适的例子，也完全没问题。

And maybe we can talk about manufacturing, but I'll leave it up to you if there's a different example you want to use.

之前我们聊了领导力和环境这些大方向，但我想能不能再具体一点，比如在生物制药公司里，看看怎么用这套框架来提升制造环节的效率。

You know, we've talked a little bit about leadership and environment broadly, but I wonder if we could kind of narrow in a little bit and look at a functional area at a biopharma company and, you know, how you how you think about using that framework to improve, you know, efficiencies in manufacturing, for example.

对。

Right.

说到职能部门，我们其实跟所有部门都合作过。

I I mean, as far as functional areas goes, it it's a we work with every single area.

嗯。

Okay.

我们重点盯哪个部门，主要看实际需求，但你必须有全局视角，光盯着一个部门是不够的——因为每个部门都是整个系统里的一部分。

The area where we would focus on would be based on really the need, but you really need that broad brush to understand because focusing on one area only will never be enough because even the area that functional area is is performing within a system.

如果有一个部门做得特别好，但跟系统其他部分脱节了，那问题就大了。

So if you've got one area working really, really well, but it doesn't connect to the other parts of that system, it's it's gonna be challenging.

对吧？

Right?

我们一般刚介入时，客户最常要求我们重点解决的，就是让质量部门和运营部门对齐。

But, typically, when when we we come in, usually, the the areas we're really focusing on, we get asked in right at the beginning is aligning quality and operations.

对吧？

Right?

通常我们最关注的是让维护、运营和质量这三个部门真正达成默契，彼此听得懂对方在说什么，这特别关键。

That's typically maintenance, operations, quality, like getting that triad, that trusted triad to really speak each other's language is is very is very important.

我们特别想强调的一点是，质量本身并不是一个独立的职能部门。

And one of the things that we really are to really, really kind of focus on is is that quality itself isn't a functional area.

质量不该是单独的一项工作，而应该是你做每件事的方式。

Quality shouldn't be, must be the way you do the work.

对吧？

Right?

尤其是在生物技术领域，这一点特别重要。

So so and especially in biotech, this is very important.

很多时候，你想想，该怎么定义这个呢？

So a lot of the times, you know, how do you how do you define that?

这到底是个什么样子？

What does that look like?

帮助这些机构建立起这种机制。

Helping helping the organizations create that.

但通常，当我们进入制造环节时，会涉及方方面面。

But typically, you know, when we're going into manufacturing, there's all these different aspects.

比如设备维护。

You know, there there's maintenance.

还有质量管控。

There's there's quality.

再就是工程团队。

There there's engineering.

然后还有运营本身。

Then you have operations itself.

所以有这么多不同的职能部门——供应链、仓储，所有这些都得协同运作，才能把活儿干好。

So there's all these different functional areas, supply chain, all warehouse, all these things that have to kind of work in a system to to to get the work done.

我们也会关注销售方面。

But we also look at sales too.

对吧？

Right?

如果看各个职能部门，客户投诉其实能告诉我们很多信息。

So if they go function functional area, customer complaints are telling me a lot.

对吧？

Right?

客户投诉到底在暗示什么？

What what's that customer complaint telling me?

我们会把这些反馈拉回来，说：好吧。

We'll bring it back and say, okay.

那这跟我们车间里实际在做的事有什么关系呢？

Well, how does that relate to what we're doing here on the shop floor?

所以我觉得，这正是关键所在。

So that's really, I would say, you know, where this to breathe.

而且，不管哪个行业都是这样。

And and and, really, it's in any industry.

你想想，咱们之前说的那些量化数据，是谁做出来的？

If you think about it, if we go back to what we're talking about the quantitative data, who developed that quantitative data or those data?

是人做出来的。

The human beings did.

对啊。

Right.

就是人做的。

Humans did.

这些数据都是人开发的。

Humans developed that.

所以我们得理解它，因为这些都是人为了特定目的开发出来的。

So we have to understand it, because it was developed by people for a specific reason.

这么说吧，归根结底，它到底想告诉我们什么，这就清楚了。

So with that, that tells us what it's what it what it you know, what it's supposed to to tell us at the end of the day.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得，就功能模块这块，我能想到的就这些了。

So that's that's really, I think, everything that I can think of in terms of, you know, what functional areas.

说真的，这事儿根本没边界。

Really, there's no limit.

你之前提到，现在大家都不太去想这个理念了，反而开始搞摄影和行为层面的东西。

And you said earlier, you know, people have gotten away from thinking about this belief, you know, and have to start a photography and the behavioral piece.

但我得说，其实每天都有不少人正在关注这个。

I I will say that I see actually 10 bits of that everyday people are thinking about it.

他们确实在做这些事，也在思考行为方面的问题。

They are doing these things, and they are doing they are thinking about behaviors.

他们其实都在想这些事。

They are thinking about all these things.

难就难在，他们没个抓手，也没个框架能把这些东西撑起来、显出来。

What's challenging is they don't have something to hang it on or framework to to give it space and to make it visible.

这正是我们做的事。

And that's what we do.

等我们做完了，或者甚至还在做的过程中，你就能看得清清楚楚了。

By the time, you know, we're done or even in process, you can see it.

那个框架，一眼就能看明白。

You can see that framework.

但每个人其实都有一些零散的部分。

But everybody does have bits and pieces of it.

毕竟，人嘛，都是人。

Because human beings have human beings after all.

说到底，他们心里其实都明白自己在干嘛。

They they they really know what they're doing at the end of the day.

所以当你去看的时候，只要你用他们能理解的方式把他们自己其实能看到的东西呈现出来，事情就会容易得多。

So when you when you look at it, you end up seeing when you show them what they can see, but you show it in a form that's understandable, it makes it a lot easier.

在生物技术领域，每家公司都不一样，取决于你所在的行业，取决于你生产的是哪类产品，或者哪一类医疗器械制造。

And in biotech, it's different from it's different from company to company too depending on the industry you're in, depending on what class of form of product you're making or class of medical device, you know, manufacturing.

这个框架在不同环境下会变，但到了那个环境里，它自然会变得清晰、有道理。

It's gonna that that that framework is gonna change, but it'll become visible and and it'll make sense to you within that environment.

希望我说得够清楚了。

So I hope that makes sense.

不，说得太棒了。

No, that's excellent.

我想再顺着这个话题多问几句。

I wanna just maybe follow-up on that.

你之前提到过，跨业务部门的协同，还有人与人之间的对齐。

You talked about alignment across business functions at times, certainly between individuals.

Monika，你能再多说说吗？怎么让团队成员之间在心态和信念上真正对齐？你平时是怎么做的？

What more could you say, Monika, about aligning mindset or aligning beliefs between individual team members and kind of you know, you do that.

你还提到过一个例子，比如新来的领导，跟前任的风格、理念可能都不一样。

You know, you also mentioned the example of, you know, for example, you know, a new leader coming into a company that maybe has a different perspective than the former leader has a kind of different way of doing things, maybe a different set of beliefs.

关于团队成员之间这种心态的契合，你有什么建议？怎么去推动这件事？

What can you say about that mindset connection between individual team members, and and, how do you work on that?

这是个特别棒的问题，答案其实挺深的。

Very, very good question, and it's a very deep answer.

领导者必须主动负责，把整个团队的信念和行为统一起来。

Leaders are leaders must be responsible for, you know, aligning those beliefs and behaviors across the entire operation.

对吧？

Right?

归根结底，这事就得靠他们自己去推动。

That's mainly it really it's really up to them at the end of the day their effort.

他们得主动去做。

They have to actively do it.

得主动去做。

Actively do it.

对吧？

Right?

因为不同视角这个概念，或者我常说的视角多元主义，就是说你得欣赏别人的观点。

Because the idea of different perspectives or what I like to call perspectivism, right, which is, you know, appreciating the perspectives of others.

就算你不认同，你也能欣赏它。

Even if you don't agree with it, you're appreciating it.

你去理解它，把它纳入进来。

You're understanding it, you're bringing it in.

这种差异，我才把它叫做真正的差异。

That difference, we that's what I would call difference.

对吧？

Right?

只有当环境能融合这种差异时，它才成为优势。

The difference is only an asset if an environment can integrate it.

所以领导者，首要的，必须能做到这一点。

So lead leaders, first and foremost, must be able to do that.

对吧？

Right?

所以他们的职责不该是制造一致，而是营造一种共同的归属感。

So their role shouldn't be in not creating sameness, right, but creating shared me.

因为一致性就是照着固定方式做事罢了。

Because sameness needs it's just getting done this way.

我们都得同意这套做法，然后赶紧推进。

We all have to agree on this and we'll get going.

这时候，别人的想法就开始悄悄冒头了。

And that's when other people's thought processes start to creep in.

这时候，真正的创新才开始出现。

That's when the work arouse come in.

当人们不再拘泥于流程，开始寻找别的解法，那往往是因为我们没真正重视不同的视角。

That's when not following a procedure comes in or finding a different solution comes in because we're not appreciating the perspectives.

对吧？

Right?

在生物技术领域，有些手术必须严格按照特定方式来做，这我们都知道。

We have to obviously in biotech, there are surgeries you must do in a certain way.

这种时候绝对不能随便改动。

You cannot deviate from that.

对吧？

Right?

既然我们明白这一点，就得考虑到：万一有人就是想改呢？

So if we know that, we have to build the fact that it's possible that somebody could deviate.

那我们该怎么在流程里提前留出余地？毕竟规矩又不能破。

So how do we how do we build that into the process because we can't deviate from that?

因为我们知道，他确实得这么干。

Because we know he would need to work like that.

这正是我想说的——得这么去想。

So it and that's what I mean by thinking about.

我是说，流程里要留空间，但同时也要承认，这种可能性确实存在。

I'm saying build it in, but understand that that's a possibility.

所以，领导者的角色，就像我说的，是要在不同团队之间建立共识，让不同的观点和想法能提升决策质量，而不是制造矛盾。

So a leader's role, like I said, is to share you know, create that shared meaning across groups so that the differences of opinion and differences of thought improve decisions rather than create friction.

对吧？

Right?

而这，正是领导者最需要拿捏的微妙之处。

And and that is that is really the the delicate role that a leader plays.

我总是说，新来的领导者一进公司，第一件事就是先去走一走、看一看。

And I always say when a new leader comes into an organization, the first thing they need to do is wander.

你脑子里肯定有一大堆好点子。

You have great ideas.

你是被请来的。

You were brought in.

你在自己的领域里特别出色。

You are amazing at what you do.

也许董事会心里还想着：嘿。

Maybe the board of directors thought, hey.

你一来就想把在公司X那套做法直接搬过来，帮我们照着做或者达到那个状态。

You're gonna come and bring that stuff you did in company x and help us to come like that or or get there.

对。

Yes.

我们当然可以这么做。

We can do that.

但你得先搞清楚，哪儿能推，哪儿能试，哪儿千万别碰。

But you could only do that if you know where you're gonna get pushed out, where it might be okay to to do it, where it might not be okay to do.

说不定某个地方已经在做了，你还能借力打力。

Maybe it's already happening somewhere and you can leverage that.

所以你得先到处走走，花时间了解业务——哪怕你自以为懂，其实你并不懂这儿的业务。

So you've got to wonder, spend the time wandering, spend the time understanding the business, even if you know the business because you don't know that business.

真正搞明白这个环境是怎样的。

So really understand what the environment is.

这环境到底什么样？

What is the environment?

那我该怎么去塑造或改变它，才能最终拿到我想要的结果呢？

And how am I going to be responsible for shaping it or changing it so that I get the results that I need at the end of the day?

对吧？

Right?

他们一来就直接上手，这事真不容易。

And that's hard to do when they just come in.

一来就面临巨大压力。

They're put under pressure right away.

对吧？

Right?

赶紧把这个做完，大概就是这种感觉。

Get this done, I guess, get this done.

所以我们这时候就能帮上忙了。

So, you know, that's where we come in and and we could help you.

但其实你自己也能找到办法，比如说：你看啊。

But but but even you can find your own help and say, look.

我得先慢下来，好好理清楚情况。

I gotta I gotta slow down here for a minute.

我得真正搞明白现在的局面。

I gotta really understand the lay of the land.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

So Right.

你得主动进去，让别人接纳你。

You gotta go in and and let people take you.

他们可能会把你推开。

They'll push you away.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Right.

你会学到很多东西。

You'll learn so much.

现在都2026年了。

What about it's it's 2026.

我老收到这方面的邮件。

We're hearing I'm getting emails about it.

每天都能听到越来越多关于人工智能在生命科学领域应用的消息。

We're hearing more and more about different types of AI implementations in the life sciences sector every day.

说到环境、文化、领导力，生命科学公司在引入AI工具之前，该在领导力和组织文化上考虑哪些事儿？

Thinking about environment, culture, leadership, what are some of the things that life sciences companies should think about in terms of leadership and organizational culture before, you know, implementing AI tools?

你一般会怎么建议公司处理这个问题？

How how do you advise companies on that?

我一直觉得，咱们得把AI当不了万能药，不是插上就能用的。

I always think, you know, we need to think about AI not as a plug and play fix.

对吧？

Right?

我们通常一想到任何工具，都是这么想的。

Often, that's what we we think of any tool.

你要是想在公司里引入什么工具，就觉得它能一劳永逸地解决问题。

Any tool that you wanna introduce into, your organization, it's like, like, it's gonna fix this.

或者我们干脆把它往那儿一放，就当是解决了。

Or we just put it in here instead of fix.

我总说，AI更像一个放大器，能把你现有的环境状况放大出来。

I always say it's important to think of AI as a magnifier, right, of whatever environment already exists.

我这话是什么意思呢？

So what do I mean?

在全面采用AI之前，你得搞清楚，到底是什么在影响着员工的工作方式、他们怎么理解信息、怎么做决策。

Before you adopt, you know, AI broadly, it's very important to understand what's actually shaping how people work, how they interpret inter information, or how do they make decisions.

不是你嘴上说的那些价值观，而是大家实际感受到的东西。

Not just what you say you value, but what people actually experience.

对吧？

Right?

如果领导者只空谈意图，却不了解员工真实的工作状态，那任何战略工具——包括AI——都可能让团队背离原本想达成的目标。

So if leaders elevate, you know, intentions without, you know, examining the lived conditions that that people are in, that any strategic tool, you know, including AI, can actually caused them to drift away, from the outcomes that they were trying to support in the first place and achieve in the first place.

那这到底意味着什么？

So what what does that mean?

你懂的？

You know?

如果你打算引入AI，我觉得一开始就得问几个关键问题。

I would say it's important to kind of ask some questions, right, right off the bat if you're if you're thinking for the AI in there.

员工有没有安全感，敢不敢说真话、敢不敢面对风险和不确定性？

You know, do people feel safe, right, to share truth, risk, and uncertainty?

这点特别重要，因为你得搞清楚。

That's really important because you wanna know.

决策有没有得到支持？

Is, judgment supported?

当你说‘判断’的时候，这种判断有没有得到权威支持和责任追究？

When when people like you said, judgment, is it supported with authority and accountability?

激励机制呢？它们真的和你嘴上说的、心里想的一致吗？

Do are the incentive structures you know, for example, do they align with what you say and with what you want?

对吧？

Right?

我们必须明白，AI会把现有的模式放大。

We have to understand that that what AI will do is it'll amplify patterns.

明白吗？

Okay?

好的坏的，都会放大。

Good and bad.

对吧？

Right?

而且它比任何东西都快，毕竟它是AI。

Faster than anything else because it is AI.

对吧？

Right?

你给它什么，它就输出什么。

What you feed it, it's gonna feed on what you feed it.

对吧？

Right?

然后它就会把那些东西还给你。

And and give give you give you that.

如果一开始的条件就不靠谱，那我们只会让混乱变得更严重。

So if the conditions are solid to begin with, then we are just gonna just simply steal the confusion even more.

偏见和错位会越来越多。

There's gonna be more bias and more misalignment.

所以关键根本不是先挑工具，而是要深刻理解环境和文化，确保领导层、环境和人的体验都经过精心对齐，之后再往上叠加技术。

So really, it's not about choosing tools first per se, it's really about understanding the environment and the culture very, very deeply and ensuring making sure that leadership, environment, and human experience are really intentionally aligned before you start layering any technology on top of it.

否则，只会被放大。

Otherwise, it's gonna amplify.

你还会纳闷，哎，我们明明引进了这东西，怎么就没帮上忙呢？

And you'll wonder why, hey, we got this in, it's not really helping us.

那是因为咱们根本没回头去看看，人们到底是怎么实际使用它的。

Well, because we didn't go back to see, you know, how people are actually creating of this.

这种话我听得太多了。

I I hear this a lot.

大家都怕AI。

People are afraid of AI.

很多人觉得自己的工作迟早要被取代。

People think many people think their jobs are gonna be obsolete.

外面各种说法满天飞。

There's lots of stuff out there.

所以公司得明白，哪怕有人嘴上说‘好啊，用AI’，领导们也未必真不害怕。

So companies need to understand that even though somebody might say yes, you know, leaders will say yes, AI, use AI, even they have some form of fear.

他们心里其实也有不确定，只是因为那事儿太未知了。

Even they have some sort of it's uncertainty, but it's the unknown.

当人面对未知的时候，我们该怎么办？

And what any human being is based within the unknown, what do we do?

我们会上网搜一搜。

We Google things.

上网查一查。

Google things.

我们试着去找答案、去解决。

We try to find and fix.

我们总想赶紧上手做点什么，但这些举动其实都源于缺乏实际经验。

We we try to implement things, and all of that is coming from a place of not experience.

但你真正该去问的、真正有用的信息，是亲自下去看看实际情况的人。

But your true Google or your true information is the people going down and finding out what's going on.

你要想知道真相，就得去现场了解。

That's really where you're gonna get everything you need to know.

所以，AI确实非常强大。

So AI is very powerful.

它会是个很棒的伙伴，但我们得确保它是能长久相伴的，而不是一时兴起的关系。

It's gonna be a great partner, but we wanna make sure that it becomes a partner that's going to be lifelong, and not a temporary relationship.

没错。

Right.

对。

Yeah.

我就是这么想的。

That's what I would say.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且说实话，我觉得AI还有个不确定的地方，它每天都在进步。

And, I mean, I think the other uncertain piece about AI and and it's improving every day.

它变得越来越厉害，但偶尔还是会出错，甚至会瞎编。

It's getting better and better, but it does make mistakes, does hallucinate on occasion.

我想问一下，关于人为失误，公司该怎么设计流程呢？不管是制造、临床研究、金融，还是其他领域，都要考虑到人真的会犯错。

I wanna ask though about human error and how companies, you know, can think about designing processes, whether, you know, it's manufacturing, clinical research, finance, elsewhere that that account for actual human errors.

所以，应对人类犯错的最好办法，就是改变一个假设。

So the best way to account for a human is making errors is mutated one assumption.

我不太喜欢做假设，但我觉得我们唯一该假设的是：人总会犯错。

I I don't like to make assumptions, but the one assumption that I think we should make is that humans are human.

是的。

Yeah.

他们肯定会出错。

They'll make errors.

对吧？

Right?

我知道我肯定会。

I know I will.

对。

Yeah.

这正是我们学到的。

That's what we learn.

对吧？

Right?

就算我们接受了训练，还是会犯错。

We will make mistakes even when we're we're trained on something.

我们每天都在犯错。

We do it every day.

有没有人说过‘对不起’，或者‘我不是那个意思’？

Have has anybody ever said I'm sorry or, well, I didn't mean it that way.

当然有。

Of course.

我们每天生活中，这种事屡见不鲜。

Constantly, we we we do that in our lives every day.

所以我们得记住，错误不是随机的。

So we've we've gotta remember that error isn't random.

你懂的吧？

You know?

这其实是个模式问题。

It's it's it's pattern.

如果我们这么想，就得好好看看这些模式。

So if we think about it that way, wanna really look at the patterns.

我们要理解这些模式，然后设计系统来预防错误，而不是出了事再补救。

We wanna understand the patterns and then design systems that reduce error instead of reacting to it.

我觉得，这正是我们现在看到的情况。

And I think that that's that's what we're seeing.

我们总是在事情发生后才反应，说：好吧。

We're doing it later in the game and saying, okay.

都是人为失误。

Human error.

但到底是什么样的环境，才让那个人做出了那样的举动呢？

But what were the conditions that shaped that human hand, Perret?

对。

Mhmm.

我们本来就该预料到人会出错。

We should expect human error.

明白吧？

Okay?

是什么样的环境导致了这种情况？

What were the conditions that shaped that?

行了。

Alright.

我们得改变这些环境。

We need to change those conditions.

可如果我们一出事就说‘是人犯了错’，接下来会怎样？

Because what happens if we say humans made a mistake?

会怎么样呢？

What happens?

那就是人的责任。

It's the human's fault.

对吧？

Right?

都是人的错。

It's the human's fault.

我们怪他们。

We blame them.

可一旦我们开始怪自己或者怪别人，注意力就全跑到个人身上了——要么 fix 这个人，要么不 fix，却没人去解决真正的问题。

And when they blame ourselves or someone else, the what ends up happening is our focus now becomes on the individual, fixing the individual or not fixing the individual and not the problem.

因为这没保证。

Because there's no guarantee.

你就算把这个人换掉，下一个坐这位置的人，照样可能犯同样的错。

There's no guarantee that if you remove that individual, that another person that goes in the same spot won't make the same mistake.

你懂的。

You know?

这其实是科学问题。

And it's science.

你懂的。

You know?

我们做双盲实验。

We do double blind experiments.

我们就是这么做的。

We do this.

作为科学家，我们知道人总会出错，所以得重复两次。

So as scientists, we know that it human, we have to we have to do it twice.

我们得把错误再复现一遍。

We gotta repeat the error.

你懂的。

You know?

这是身体上的偏差吗？

Is it is it a a physical bias?

还是个人的偏见？

Is it a personal bias?

这到底是不是等价的？

Is it is it is it the equivalent?

这到底是什么？

What is it?

你懂的吧？

You know?

在我们搞清楚到底哪些因素会导致这种错误之前，其实我们并不知道。

And we don't know until we most of the conditions we understand the conditions that, you know, cause that error to occur in the first place.

人嘛，犯错是难免的，不管你愿不愿意承认。

Humans are gonna make mistakes like it or not.

所以这一点，我们从一开始就得记牢。

And so that's what we have to remember right off the bat.

我觉得，如果你只记住这一条，而且早有心理准备，生活就会轻松很多，因为你心里会想，对啊。

And I think if that's the only thing that you remember and you expect that, life becomes much easier because you're gonna say, yeah.

当然，这个人犯错了。

Of course, this person made a mistake.

咱们来搞清楚为什么会这样。

Let's let's figure out why that happened.

这样反而简单多了，因为你真正解决的是根深蒂固的人性问题，而不是某个具体人的失误。

And it makes it so much easier because you actually end up putting permanent fixes in there that fix the inherent human behavior, not individual behavior.

对吧？

Right?

这样一来，新做法自然就比旧的更顺手了。

And then the new behavior becomes easier than the old.

这还有个关键点。

And that's the other thing.

我们在想办法防止人为错误的时候，特别重要的一点是，新做法必须比旧的更省事。

I will say that it is very important when we're trying to do these fixes for human error not to occur, that the new behavior must be easier than the old.

非得这样不可。

It's got to.

不然的话，人都是有惯性的。

If it's not, we're creatures of habit.

咱们回到那个舒服的状态吧。

We're gonna go back to our happy place.

以前这么干更省事，那咱们就还是这么干。

It was easier to do it this way before, so that's the way we're gonna do it.

新的方法得花点心思去琢磨。

So the new it's gonna require work to figure out.

新方法必须得更简单才行。

The new one has to be easier.

比如说，有人出错了，我们说：行吧。

So when we layer for example, if somebody makes a mistake and we say, alright.

得把这个步骤加进流程里，防止他再犯，结果一加再加，反而把流程搞复杂了。

We gotta add this to the process now that's going to stop this person from doing this and you add it again, what we're doing is we're complicating it.

我们实际上是在给自己添麻烦。

So we're actually making it more difficult.

现在空中出现的问题就是，因为我们把新做法搞得比旧方法还麻烦。

And that's what we see the air right now because we made the new behavior more difficult than the old behavior.

所以，人们当然会喜欢它。

So, of course, people are gonna like it.

毕竟我们都是人嘛。

We're human beings after all.

谁都想走省力的路。

We want the path of least resistance.

对啊。

Right.

我觉得我们真该好好想想这一点。

And that's and that's that's where I think we need to think about.

这话说得真有道理。

That makes a lot of sense to me.

Monika，最后这一两分钟，我想问问你，关于新公司该怎么起步——想想那些能让公司一出生就走上正轨的环境和条件，让它们以后能真正感到满意。

And our our final minute or two here, Monika, I wanna ask you about kind of prospective company creation, thinking about the environment and conditions that that companies could perhaps start out with, you know, and, you know, set themselves on a kind of trajectory, you know, that they're gonna be happy with.

结合你之前在Bunka的经验，还有现在越来越多的初创生物技术公司，它们都在为未来的创新疗法努力，你怎么看？

And maybe just thinking about your past experiences at Bunka and, you know, the the ever growing number of startup biotechs, you know, that are working to develop innovative therapies for tomorrow.

你对他们能说点什么？

What what can you say to them?

我的意思是，如果你是个领导者，想围绕一项超棒的技术创业，但得先营造对的环境，为成功打基础，你会给什么建议？

You know, what advice would you give to someone, you know, a leader perhaps who is thinking about forming a company around a really exciting technology, but they need to get those kind of get the environment right, set themselves up for success.

你知道的。

You know?

在公司初创阶段，有哪些关键事情是他们该做或该考虑的？

What are what are a couple of things that they could do or or think about in that kind of company formation stage?

我觉得最重要的是，得为使命而设计环境，为人而设计。

I think that, first of all and I'm gonna say that the most important thing is to design the environment for purpose and design it for humans.

听起来简单，但当你做的产品涉及那么多流程、科学和技术时，其实很难做到。

That may sound easy, but it isn't when you're thinking about producing a very a a product that requires so many different processes, so much science, so much technology to make.

我们常常只想着怎么让环境匹配技术或流程的需求，对吧？

So often we're designing it, We're fitting it for purpose for for the technology that has to create it, right, or the process that has to create it.

没错。

Yes.

我们也得这么做。

We have to do that too.

但咱们得先为目标设计，更要为人设计，毕竟用这个环境的是人。

But we've gotta be able to design it for purpose, and we better design it for humans because humans are going to use that environment.

那些流程也是人来操作的。

Humans are gonna use those processes.

所以你想过没有，生物科技公司为什么存在？

So if we think about it, why do biotech companies exist?

它们存在的根本，就是解决真实的人类问题。

They exist really to solve real human problems.

对吧？

Right?

这才是它们存在的意义。

That's why they exist.

公司内部的运作体系，也得用同样的用心去构建。

The internal system people operate inside has to be built with that same level of intentionality.

如果我们设计产品是为了解决这些真实的人类问题，那整个系统也得用同样的思路来设计。

If we're designing products to solve these real human problems and the system's gotta be designed with the same thought process.

对吧？

Right?

人类创造这些产品，本来就是为了帮其他人类解决实际问题。

Human beings are going to be creating this product for other humans to solve real human problems.

对吧？

Right?

关键在于，我想说的是，人类在那种只追求控制和速度的系统里根本干不好活。

And the trick is humans the advice that the the thing I would say is that, you know, humans don't operate well inside systems that are built purely for control and speed.

真的干不好。

They they just don't.

他们只有在判断力、权威、责任和意义能协调一致的系统里，才能发挥得好。

They operate well inside, you know, systems where, you know, judgment, authority, and accountability, and meaning align.

就是说，这些东西得对得上才行。

Like, there's there's an alignment to that.

对吧？

Right?

所以在任何人打算扩大规模或起步之前，我觉得我们得先问两个问题。

So before anybody would scale, I would say, or start out there there are two questions I think we need to start asking.

就是这两个问题。

The first two questions.

我首先想说的是，你得问问自己：我们正在打造的是什么样的环境？

And the first thing I would say is, you know, ask yourself, you know, say, you know, what kind of environment are we building?

第一个问题。

First one.

我们正在促成哪些行为？

And what behaviors are we making possible?

这点特别关键。

That is key.

如果现有的设计催生了你不希望出现的行为，那我们真正想要鼓励的是哪些行为？

If there's behavior and the way you do that it's behaviors you don't want to happen, then what are the behaviors you do want to happen?

你具体在做些什么，来让这些行为发生呢？

What are you doing to make those behaviors possible?

不只是说‘我们希望这样’就完事了。

Not just that this is what we want.

不然的话，你指望人自己就能明白，觉得这应该是天经地义的。

Because otherwise, in the we're expecting people to just do it, and it's inherent.

你得想想，我们刚才不是聊过视角这回事吗？

You're creating you know, you're remember we just talked earlier about perspectives.

每个人看问题的角度都不一样。

Everybody has different perspectives.

所以你得建个系统，让大家都能对齐这个视角。

So you've gotta create the system that everybody has aligned to that perspective.

其他东西你都可以认可。

You can appreciate everything else.

给他们一个框架。

Give them a framework.

对吧？

Right?

给他们一个能联结的东西。

Give them something to connect to.

对吧？

Right?

如果你设计一个系统，让人基于清晰的目标发挥判断力，那领导力就能真正高效地运转。

And if you if you design a system, you know, so that people's judgment matters really in service from a clear purpose, then the leadership can function really, really well.

对吧？

Right?

这样一来，绩效才能持续下去。

And then performance becomes sustainable.

这其实才是每个人真正想达成的目标。

That's really what everybody is striving to do.

所以哪怕你开一家生物科技公司，不管做什么，最终都希望实现可持续的绩效。

So even if you're opening a biotech company, whatever you're doing, you want sustainable performance at the end of this.

对吧？

Right?

你得在用户需要的时候，以他们需要的方式把产品交到他们手上。

You wanna be able to deliver the product to the people when they need it, how they need it.

对吧？

Right?

说到底，我们想要的不就是这个吗。

That's that's what we want at the end of the day.

这得从最开始的环境就开始着手。

So it starts way back in the environment.

这也就是我想给的建议。

And that's what I that's the advice that I would give.

太棒了。

Excellent.

在你走之前，Monika，我再问你个事儿，你不是在写一本书吗？

Before I let you go, Monika, really quick, if you can, you're working on a book.

你能先给我们透露一下这本书的主题吗？

I wonder if you could give us a preview of the topic.

你猜猜看。

Take a wild guess.

这本书主要讲的就是环境这个话题，以及怎么管理好环境来实现这些成果。

The the book is gonna be really focusing on this this idea about environment and how to steward that environment to to deliver those results.

没错，我确实在写，而且特别兴奋。

So, yes, I am working on it, and, I'm very excited about it.

之前别人老问我啥时候写书，问了无数遍，我这才下定决心动笔。

It I finally decided to write this book after being asked many, many times, when are you gonna write your book?

你啥时候写书啊？

When are you gonna write your book?

以前每次想写的主题都不一样，但没有哪个像现在这个一样让我这么在意。

But it was always a different topic, and and nothing really mattered to me as much as it does today.

我跟你说说为啥。

And I'll tell you why.