盖尔·金：他与我的密友出轨

没错。

Exactly.

我挺放松的。

I'm relaxed.

说得太对了。

That's exactly right.

哦，有意思。

Oh, interesting.

康涅狄格州。

Connecticut.

她在芝加哥。

She's in Chicago.

所以我打电话问她：你穿什么呀？

So I called to say, what are you wearing?

几点？

What time?

啰啰嗦嗦一大堆。

Blah blah blah blah blah.

她说：不行。

She goes, no.

你知道的，我还有好多事要处理。

I you know, I I have x, y, and z to do.

那不是我的生活方式。

That that is not how I live.

如果我有一次千载难逢的机会，那确实是一次千载难逢的机会——不过后来她还真在王宫里和戴安娜公主单独吃过一顿午餐。

If I have a once in a lifetime experience, and that is a once in a lifetime experience, except later on, she did have a private lunch with princess Diana at the palace back in the day.

所以，没错。

So there yes.

这叫炫耀。

There's there's that's called flex.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

等等。

Like, hold on.

等等。

Hold on.

我怎么没收到邀请？

Where's my invite for that?

等等。

Hold on.

我不会错过任何一生只有一次的机会。

I am not passing up once in a lifetime experiences.

我明白。

I get that.

但有时候我比她自己还为她高兴，而我也有过

But I am happier for her sometimes than she is for herself, and I had my

自己的生活也是。

own life too.

最美好的地方就在于，当你和朋友都在努力追求成功的时候。

That's what's so beautiful is, like, when you have a friendship where you're both trying to succeed.

没错。

And Yes.

我最近经常和朋友们聊这个，因为我们每个人走的路都不一样。

And I've been talking about this a lot with my friends because we're all on different paths.

对每个人来说，成功的模样也不一样。

Success also looks different to everyone.

对吧？

Right?

就是这样。

Exactly.

是工作吗？

Is it job?

是成功吗？

Is it Yeah.

是家庭吗？

Family?

不管是什么，比如友情。

Is it whatever it be, friendship.

但我觉得，说到这个，人们对女性的关注特别强烈，而男性根本不会这样。

But I think there's so much intense fixation specifically on women when it comes to this, and it just isn't for men Nope.

不知为什么。

For some reason.

你觉得我们有没有取得进展，比如一个人的成功不会削弱他人的成就？

Do you think that we've made any progress that, like, one woman's success doesn't take away from the others?

你觉得人们是不是开始慢慢接受这个观念了？

Like, do you think people are starting to be more acclimated to

这个观念？

that concept?

希望如此吧。

Like to think so.

对。

Yeah.

我愿意这么想。

I would.

我愿意这么想，因为事实就是，空间是足够的。

I would like to think so because the truth of the matter is there really is room.

你拥有什么，并不会剥夺我什么。

And so just because you have something, it doesn't take anything away from me.

当你对自己感觉良好，我也是，只有当你觉得自己不够好，才可能会嫉妒别人。

When you feel good about yourself, and I do, when you feel good about yourself, it's only if you don't feel that you measure up that maybe you're jealous of somebody.

我还觉得，说到这五十年，你们俩应该一直都在彼此身边。

I also just feel like, speaking of fifty years, you both have probably been there for each other

是的。

Mhmm.

在最黑暗、最艰难的时刻。

In the darkest, hardest moments.

是的。

Yeah.

她也曾经低落过。

And she's been down.

通常她低落的时候，你就是那个振作的人。

And usually if she's down, you're up.

而你低落的时候，她就会站起来。

And if you're down, she's up.

这就是真正的友谊——当一个人陷入低谷时，另一个人必须在那一刻成为他的支柱。

And that is friendship where it's like someone has to, in the moment, be the anchor when the other person's going through it.

而且这种角色应该不断交替，因为生活本来就是这样。

And it always should be flip flopping because that's life.

对吧？

Right?

如果总是一个人在不断需要帮助，那这段友谊可能就不太平衡了。

And if it is always one person that's needing it, needing it, needing it, then that's probably not as balanced of a friendship.

说得太对了。

Absolutely true.

你们俩能一起走过几十年，就这样彼此交替着支持对方，真好。

And it feels like you guys have been able to navigate decades together in this beautiful push and pull of Yep.

你需要我。

You need me.

我在这儿呢。

I got you.

我需要你。

I need you.

我在这儿呢。

I got you.

就是这样。

It's Mhmm.

事情本来就是这样。

That's just how it is.

五十周年纪念会办派对吗？

Will there be a party for this fiftieth anniversary?

我知道。

I know.

你别说，大概一个月前，她提到过，好像说她正打算办个友谊派对，让大家都带着自己的奥普拉或者盖尔来。

You know, the other day, about a month ago, she said, I think she said, I'm thinking about having a friendship party and telling everybody to come and bring their Oprah or bring their Gayle.

你们俩会不会来？

Wouldn't you guys come?

这主意不错。

Like that idea.

盖尔？

Gayle?

对啊。

Yeah.

我从来没问过别人这个问题，因为我觉得没必要问。

I actually have never asked anyone this because I wouldn't.

不过，我真的很想收到那份邀请。

But, yeah, I would love an invite to that party.

派对。

Party.

不用了。

No.

不管是男生还是女生，只要是朋友，我都会支持。

The friendship party, whether whether it's male, female I would sister yes.

就是为了庆祝友情。

To celebrating friendship.

真正拥有知心朋友的人，都懂这意味什么。

And, you know, people that have a true friend understand what this is.

那些不懂的人呢，就只会说些无关紧要的话。

You know, the other people that don't, they go, well, you know, they're blah blah blah blah.

你随便说说，填个空也行。

Fill in the blank about whatever you wanna say us.

真正有深厚友谊的人，尤其是女性，特别能理解这一点。

But people who have a true friendship, women in particular, really get it.

她们真的懂。

They get it.

她们真的懂。

They really get it.

所以我特别想跟你聊聊这个，因为我觉得现在很多听众——可能二十多岁、快三十岁、或者三十出头——当大家都在找另一半的时候，友情常常就被搁一边了。

And that's why I was so excited to talk to you about this because I feel like a lot of my listeners right now are at this impasse where they're in their maybe twenties, late twenties, thirties, and friendship sometimes can put get put on the back burner when everyone's trying to find their person.

对吧？

Right?

而且有些人压根儿就没朋友，亚历克斯。

Or they don't have friends, Alex.

现在有太多人连一个朋友都没有了。

They so many people these days don't even have friends.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

这种感觉真的很孤单。

And it feels it can feel so isolating.

你会觉得特别脱节。

You can feel really disconnected.

我觉得我生命中最美好的关系，当然我爱我的家人和丈夫，但真正能挺你、支持你的，还是那些闺蜜。

And I find that the most beautiful relationships in my life of course, I love my family and my husband, but, like, really having that girlfriend or those girlfriends that can have your back.

没错。

Mhmm.

几年前芭芭拉·沃尔特斯采访奥普拉的时候，她说起你，那番话让我特别感动。

It made me emotional for you when Oprah said this about you when Barbara Walters interviewed her a few years ago.

她说：‘她是我从未有过的母亲。'

And she said, she is the mother I never had.

她是每个人都想拥有的姐妹。

She is the sister everyone would want.

她是每个人都配得上的朋友。

She is the friend that everyone deserves.

我找不到比她更好的人了。

I don't know a better person.

是的。

Yeah.

她说她以前从没真正表达过这一点。

And she said she never really expressed that before.

比如，她到底

Like, what did

你看到那一幕都哽咽了。

you got choked up watching that.

我坐在那儿看芭芭拉·沃尔特斯采访，嘴里还吃着爆米花，然后我立刻给她打了电话，说：天啊。

I'm sitting there watching Barbara Walters eating my popcorn, and then I I called her and I said, oh my god.

你刚说的我简直不敢信，我从来没把自己当成过那样的人，从来没想过自己对她能有这么多意义。

I can't believe what you just said because I never thought about myself in that capacity, all those things to her to her.

但我们之间确实有一种特别的纽带。

But but we do have a very unique bond.

我以前说过一句惹麻烦的话，因为我是单身、清醒、随时准备开始新恋情。

I got in trouble once when I said, you know because I'm single, alert, and available.

我说，要是能遇到一个像奥普拉那样的男人，我就心满意足了。

I said, if I could meet a guy that was like Oprah, I'd be done.

结果大家像往常一样，把这话断章取义了。

And then people took that all out of context as they often do.

我的意思是，我说过，等我死了，真希望来世能做她的狗。

I mean, I said, you know, when I die, I'd like to come back as one of her dogs.

她们出行特别方便，亚历克斯。

They travel very well, Alex.

坐的是开司米私人飞机。

Cashmere private planes.

算我一个。

Sign me up.

想再回来。

Wanna come back

简直了。

as fuck.

肤浅。

Shallow.

是的。

Yeah.

我肯定要投胎到奥普拉的狗群里。

I am so coming back in front of Oprah's dogs.

我跟你一样想。

I'm right there with you.

我才不在乎那是不是肤浅。

I don't care if that's shallow.

好的。

Okay.

等一下。

Wait.

有两件事。

Two things.

第一，当你听到奥普拉那样说你的时候，你为什么从来没想过或没觉得自己是那样的？

Number one, why do you think that you never thought or saw yourself like that when you heard Oprah say that about you?

因为我们只是在过自己的日子。

Because we're just living our lives.

别人总问，你们平时都做些什么？

People say, what do you guys do?

你们平时聊些什么？

What do you talk about?

我说，什么都聊，也什么都没聊。

I go everything and nothing.

你知道吗，你打电话来的时候，其实也没什么正经事可聊，就只会说你在干嘛。

You know, don't you call in you don't even have anything really to talk about other than what you doing?

你就是躲在食品储藏室里吃东西。

You're, like, eating in the pantry.

你就在厨房里晃来晃去。

You're walking around your kitchen.

不是。

No.

我的情况是，直接从罐子里挖 Betty Crocker 的巧克力糖霜吃。

Mine is Betty Crocker chocolate frosting out of the can.

太棒了。

Love.

真的太棒了。

Love.

你就跟对着奥普拉那样，大口吃着糖霜，她呢，就对盖尔说。

You're just, like, eating your frosting like to Oprah, and she's like, Gayle.

你是不是在想，你到底在干嘛？

You're like, what are you what are you doing?

你懂的。

You know?

可能是大事。

So it could be big things.

也可能是小事。

It could be little things.

但你不觉得挺有意思吗？有时候，我们生命中最亲近的人，反而不说这些话。

Isn't that interesting, though, that sometimes the closest people to us in our life, we don't say those things?

对。

No.

我确实没想到，我居然也是这样的人，或者我到现在还是这样，但我也对她有同样的感觉。

I I but it took me aback to think that I I was that or I am that, but I feel that about her too.

你只需要知道，她第一点就清楚，我绝不会背叛她。

You all you need she number one, she knows I would never betray her.

人们都会来找我。

People come to me.

我觉得，只要你曾经进入过核心圈，哪怕今天我们闹翻了，我也不会说出去。

I also think once you've been in the inner circle, even if we had a falling out today, I I would not I would not say.

我不会写书。

I would not write a book.

我不会做那些我见过别人做的事。

I wouldn't do any of that stuff that I see people do.

因为一旦你进入了任何人生活的核心圈，那是一种非常珍贵的待遇，我把它看得特别神圣。

Because once you've been in the inner circle of anyone's life, it's a really privileged place to be, and I I hold that very sacred.

我知道，无论什么事我都能信任她。

I know I can trust her with anything,

她也一样信任我。

And she me.

每个人都有这样的关系。

Everyone has it.

程度不同而已。

Different degrees.

当然，作为公众人物是一回事，但每个人都有这种情况，不管是高中、大学，还是在工作中。

Obviously, being public people is one thing, but everyone has it, whether it's high school, college, you're at your job.

只要是关于忠诚和信任，这种事都存在。

Like, anything when it comes to loyalty and trust, there is such.

对。

Yes.

有些人就是愿意毫无保留地信任，愿意相信人性中的善意，相信眼前正在建立的那些联系。

There are people who want to blindly trust and want to believe in the good and humanity and believing in people and the connection that you're building right in front of your face.

没错。

Exactly.

当你发现某些事在背后发生，而你又无意中得知了，那种感觉特别混乱，会让你重新审视身边很多事。

And when you find out something happened behind closed doors that you somehow find out about, it's so disorienting, and it makes you really rethink a lot of things going on around you.

确实如此。

It

确实如此。

does.

但这并不会让你重新质疑那些一直陪在你身边的人。

But it doesn't make you rethink those people that have always been your day ones.

这就是为什么奥普拉的直觉特别准。

I mean, that's why, you know, Oprah has such a good spidey sense.

我记得高中时有个男朋友，我觉得他简直帅到没边儿。

I can remember when I I had a boyfriend in high school who I just thought was the cutest, da da da da da.

我二十年没跟他联系了，他突然联系我，说想见我一面。

I hadn't talked to him in twenty years, and he reached out to me and said, you know, he would like to see me.

我当时就答应了。

And I was like, yes.

我当然想见你。

I would love to see you.

但奥普拉说，别把他带回家。

And Oprah said, don't bring him to your house.

我问，为什么？

I go, why?

她说，因为你二十年都没跟他联系了。

And she said, because you haven't talked to him in twenty years.

你根本不了解他了。

You don't know him.

我说，是啊。

I go, yeah.

但他以前可是……

But he was da da da da da.

她跟我说，我跟你说，别带他回家。

She goes, I'm telling you, don't bring him to your house.

你带他回家了吗？

Did you bring

当然带了，我让他来我家了。

of course, I brought him to my house.

我在纽约见了面，当时我就说，这进展还挺顺的。

So I met in New York, and I said, I met in New York, and I said, I like how this is going.

回来吧。

Come back.

那时候我住在康涅狄格州。

I lived in Connecticut at the time.

于是我们把他带回家，她打来电话问，怎么样？

And so we brought him back to the house in Connecticut, and, she called and said, how'd it go?

我说，挺好的。

I go, it was great.

她说，你没让他进屋吧？

She said, you didn't bring him in the house.

我说，没有。

I go, no.

我没让他进屋。

I didn't.

你明明告诉过我别带他去。

You you told me not to.

当然了，我没把他带回家。

Of course, I didn't bring him back to the house.

她说，这倒挺有意思。

She goes, well, that's interesting.

你没带他去？所以你根本没带他回家？

You didn't so you didn't bring him?

我说，没有。

I go, no.

我没带他。

I didn't.

你干嘛问这个？

Why are you asking?

她说，因为《国家问询报》打来电话，说他们接到一个爆料，提到他的名字，说他周末跟你待在一起，还说他去过你家，甚至说你家有个奥普拉的神龛——这完全是胡说八道。

She said, because the National Enquirer has called, and they said they have a a they're calling with a story from and said his name, that he said he spent the weekend with you and that he was at your home and that there is a shrine to Oprah in your home, which is absolutely not true.

你说你家有个奥普拉的神龛，他还拿出了证据。

There's a shrine to Oprah in your home, and he has evidence of that.

他们想问我对此有什么看法。

And they wanted to know if I had a comment about that.

这下我彻底露馅了。

So I was totally busted.

盖尔。

Gayle.

彻底露馅了。

Totally busted.

结果一查才知道，亚历克斯，他其实是

Only to find out, Alex, he was

一个可卡因成瘾者。

a cocaine addict.

盖尔。

Gayle.

所以当时呢，

So there was

我有一次睡着了。

a time that I'd fallen asleep.

我们吃了汉堡，

We had we had had burgers.

那感觉真不错。

It was great.

我们在烤架旁做饭，

We were cooking on the grill.

后来泡在热水浴缸里，我就睡着了，因为觉得特别安心。

We were in the hot tub, And I did fall asleep because I felt safe.

曼先生转了一圈，拍了我睡觉的照片，还打算卖给《国家问询报》。

Mister Mann had gone around taking pictures, had pictures of me sleeping, and was offering to sell it to the National Enquirer.

奥普拉啊，她真是把我安排得明明白白。

Oprah but Oprah she set me up so beautifully.

她说，你没把他带来？

She said, so you didn't bring him?

没带。

No.

因为你之前说别带他。

Because you said no.

别带他来。

Don't bring him.

没带。

No.

她说，我们

She's like, we

我们去看了一场戏，然后去了餐厅。

we went to a play, I said, and then we went to a restaurant.

我还提到我们坐马车逛了中央公园。

I named all we went for a carriage ride in Central Park.

她就说，

She's like,

你昨晚没穿那件蓝色睡衣，也没睡在十一点正左方，因为他拍了你，然后你还说，天哪。

so you weren't wearing your blue nightie last night, and you weren't sleeping to the left side of exactly eleven because he took a picture of you, and you're like, shit.

所以，说到底，这条规矩就是：永远相信奥普拉。

So the goal basically, the whole rule is always trust Oprah.

对。

Yes.

这规矩真不错，实实在在的。

Oh, that's a good rule, literally.

永远相信奥普拉。

Always trust Oprah.

等等，盖尔。

Wait, Gayle.

不对。

No.

我明白。

I know.

而且就算如此，首先就是完全没有隐私，完全被侵犯了

Also but even that, first of all, the lack of privacy and the complete invasion

哦，我懂。

of Oh, I know.

完全没边界感，这种理所当然的态度，是的。

The complete lack of boundaries, the entitlement Yes.

他的动机根本就不对劲。

The like, the intentions are so off.

很明显，他那天晚上早就打好了自己的算盘。

Clearly, he had a vision of what he wanted to do that night.

你真可怜。

Poor you.

亚历克斯，我觉得他不喜欢我。

Alex, I don't think he liked me.

Alex，我觉得整件事都是早有预谋的。

Alex, I think the whole thing was a setup.

我当时觉得自己蠢透了。

So I felt stupid with two o's.

我会说，不行。

I would say, no.

不行。

No.

但那个祭坛的评论呢？

But the shrine comment?

你当时就是觉得，

You're like,

他早有目的。

he had an agenda.

对。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

他说奥普拉的神龛其实疯了。

He had an A shrine of Oprah is actually psychotic.

然后

And then

他参加了十二步康复计划，就是那种要给被你伤害过的人打电话什么的，具体术语我也记不清了。

he went through the 12 step program where you're supposed to call people that you've offended or something or whatever the word is.

他打电话是想向我道歉。

He called because he wanted to apologize.

就是那时候我才知道，他当时是可卡因成瘾者，只是想跟我道个歉。

That's when I heard he was a cocaine addict at the time, and he just wanted to apologize to me.

我当时就想，拜拜了您内。

And I was like, boy, bye.

你当时是不是说，你知道吗？

You're like, you know what?

是的。

Yeah.

真希望当年在高中时我就把你拦下来，你本该留在那儿的，这到底算怎么回事？

I wish I kept you back in high school, and you should have stayed there because what the hell?

但他确实挺帅的。

But he was cute.

他还拍了你睡觉的照片。

And he was taking pictures of you sleeping.

这就不太帅了。

Not so cute.

好吧。

Okay.

等一下。

Wait.

盖尔，也是为了纪念那个神龛，还有你提到过，有人真的觉得这不可能只是普通关系，他们都说这明显是恋爱关系。

Gayle, also in memory of, you know, the shrine and also you saying that people people literally to the point have made comments that they are like, there's no way this isn't a romantic relationship.

我知道。

I know.

我知道。

I know.

我知道。

I know.

我都不想替你说话，但你跟我说说，你们面对那些头条、那些流言、那些猜测的时候，心里是什么感觉？

I I don't even wanna speak for you, but like, tell me how that feels when you guys have had to handle those headlines, handle those rumors, handle that speculation.

你告诉我。

Tell me.

我跟你说吧。

Well, I'll tell you this.

以前真的特别让我困扰。

It used to really bother me.

我最近刚离了婚，《国家问询报》还写了一篇文章，说我们离婚就是因为你们俩其实是同性恋。

I I was recently divorced, and there was the National Inquirer did a story about that's the reason for the divorce because they're secretly gay.

第一，如果我们是同性恋，我们早就告诉你了。

Number one, if we were gay, we would tell you.

因为说实话，这根本没什么大不了的。

Because believe me, there's nothing wrong with it.

我只是更喜欢男人。

It's just I prefer a man.

我就是更喜欢男人。

I prefer a man.

所以我们肯定会告诉你的。

So so we would tell you.

然后我会跟她说：你得在节目里说点什么，毕竟我周六晚上约个人都够难了，现在别人还觉得我是女同性恋。

And then I would say to her, you've got to say something on your show because it's hard enough for me to get a date on a Saturday night, and now people think I'm a lesbian.

你得说点什么。

You've got to say something.

她却说：不行。

And she said, no.

咱们就别管了。

We should just leave it be.

我说了，不行。

I said, no.

你得说她也说了不行。

You've gotta say she she said, no.

别去碰它了。

Just leave it alone.

别管了。

Leave it alone.

你当然说得轻松了。

So, well, that's fine for you to say.

你有伴儿。

You have somebody.

我没有。

I don't.

以前这事真让我很困扰。

So it used to really bother me.

直到今天，还是有人会说，说实话，我根本不关心。

And now even today, there's still people that say, well, you know, the truth is I don't care.

我现在已经到了一个境界，很少有什么事能影响我了。毕竟，你上社交媒体，仇恨情绪会被放大得特别快。

I've I've now gotten to the point in my life that very few things get to me Because, you know, when you go on social media, it is an accelerator on hate.

只要我自己觉得踏实，而且我尊重和信任的人觉得没问题，比如我妈会说‘你可能不该这么做’，或者某个我看重的人的意见。

As long as I feel good about what I'm doing, the people I respect and trust are okay with it, who will say, well, mom, maybe you shouldn't have done that or somebody whose somebody whose opinion I value.

否则，你迟早会被逼疯。

Otherwise, you'll drive yourself nuts.

所以现在我真的不在乎了。

So now I really don't care.

我

I

真的不在乎。

really don't.

不过你得面对这些，我真觉得这恰恰说明了那些人是什么样的。

Sorry though that you have to deal with that because I also just feel like that is a clear indicator, the people who are saying that.

无非就两种情况。

There's two options.

第一种，他们这辈子从来没经历过真正美好、真诚的女性友谊。

Number one, they have never had a genuine, gorgeous female friendship in their life.

你懂我的意思吧？

But do you know what I mean?

第二种呢，就是他们纯粹为了猎奇，这太性别歧视了，简直太离谱了。

And then the other one is, again, it's for the salaciousness, and it's so sexist, and it's so Yeah.

把你放在这种境地，真的太糟糕了。

It's it's just horrible that they put you in that position.

但这事儿本身也挺怪的。

But it is also a weird thing.

说到底，我们还是应该听奥普拉的。

And, again, I guess we always should just listen to Oprah.

但关键是怎么把握该说什么、不该说什么。

But it's like when to speak up and when not to.

对吧？

Right?

这确实是个难题，我敢说你在职业生涯中也一直得面对，因为那一刻，我完全理解。

And that's a hard thing that I'm sure you've had to navigate in your career because in that moment, I agree.

你可能会说：‘嘿，各位。’

You'd be like, hey, guys.

赶紧说点什么吧。

Like Say something.

是啊。

Yeah.

有时候噪音太大了，我至少得表达一下自己的看法，不管是不是跟这事有关，好让别人知道我的立场。

Sometimes when the noise gets too much, I I I feel at least let me say my piece, whether it's about that or something else just so I'm on the record of it.

但大多数时候，我真不想掺和，你知道的，以前也出过不少新闻，都说TMZ冲在最前面。

But most of the time, I just I'm not going to you know, there have been news stories, and they say TMZ is out front.

你想从后门出去吗？

Do you wanna go out the back door?

我说不了。

I go, no.

我真的不想。

I don't.

我不想看起来像个罪犯，头上还蒙着东西。

I I I don't wanna look like I'm some criminal with my thing over my head.

我的原则就是时刻做好准备。

Or I I so my thing is always be prepared.

有时候你完全可以直接说，你知道吗？

Sometimes you can just say, you know what?

我不想谈这个，或者我没什么可说的，又或者只是简单打个招呼。

I don't wanna talk about that, or I don't have anything to say, or good to see you.

但我不想看起来像在躲什么。

But I don't wanna look like I'm running from Yeah.

躲着点什么，是吧。

Running from something Mhmm.

当我明明没做错任何事的时候。

When I know I haven't done anything wrong.

我觉得这个观点特别好。

I think it's a great point.

今天能问你几个关于友谊的问题吗？给我们的听众。

Can I ask you a couple questions about friendship for our listeners today?

好的。

Yes.

好的。

Yes.

好的。

Yes.

现在网上，尤其是关于女性的话题，正在热烈讨论友谊中的诚实与建议。

There is a really big conversation online, especially around women right now, about honesty and advice in friendship.

我很想听听你的看法。

And I would love your take.

你觉得在什么情况下，直言不讳会变得过头？

At what point do you think being brutally honest can become too much?

在友谊中，会不会有些底线是不能碰的？

And, like, is there a line you can cross with friendship?

我觉得这要看是哪位朋友。

I think it depends on the friend.

我觉得这要看是哪位朋友。

I think it depends on the friend.

如果是特别亲近的人，我就会说。

So I would tell if if it's somebody I was really close to.

如果关系没那么近，我就不会插嘴。

If I'm not so close, I'm staying out of it.

关键还是看你们之间的友谊有多深。

So it really does depend on the type of friendship that you have.

我

I

我同意。

agree.

人们总问奥普拉，如果你抓到盖尔和斯蒂德曼在床上，你会怎么办？我就老拿这个开玩笑。

To joke with Oprah all the time when people said, you know, what would you do if you caught Gayle and and Stedman in bed together?

因为我真的抓到过一个朋友和我丈夫在床上。

Because I did catch a friend in bed with my husband.

你会怎么处理？

What would you do?

我总是跟她说，你根本不该生气。

And I always say to her, you shouldn't even be mad.

你只管说，哦，看来你快崩溃了。

You should just say, oh, I can tell you're having a breakdown.

我送你去医院吧。

Let me get you to the hospital.

我能看出来，你状态不对劲。

I can tell there's something very wrong.

这不像你。

This is not you.

你这是崩溃了。

You're having a breakdown.

来，亲爱的，我陪你去医院，得让你好好看看，换作是我，早就疯了。

So here, hon, let me take you, and let's go to the hospital together to get you some help because I would have lost my freaking mind.

有些底线，真的不能碰。

I I that's just there's some lines you just don't cross.

没错。

Right.

你心里清楚，不行。

You're like, no.

我肯定得住进医院，这事儿根本没法接受。

I would be I would have to be admitted because I there's just no way.

但是

But

我真的撑不住了

I done lost my

疯了。

mind.

对。

Yes.

好吧。

Okay.

这样挺好。

That's good.

在一段友情里彻底坦诚，有没有让你吃过亏？

Has being radically honest in a friendship ever backfired on you?

但凡真重要的友情，都没出过事。

Not a friendship that mattered.

这就是关键所在，亚历克斯。

That's the difference, Alex.

不是那种重要的友谊。

Not a friendship that mattered.

我觉得任何友谊都该算数。

I'm feel should matter.

就像你刚才说的那样。

Kinda what you said.

这还得看是哪个朋友，而且表达方式也特别重要。

Like, there it also depends on the friend, and it's very important also your delivery.

没错。

Like Yes.

你得懂得察言观色，看对方处在什么状态。

You need to read where the friend is at.

对。

Yes.

如果你知道他们刚经历了一件特别糟糕的事，她其实该和男朋友分手，只是还没准备好。

If you know they just went through this horrible thing and that she you know she needs to break up with the boyfriend, but she's not ready yet.

你这时候跑过去说，‘你赶紧甩了那个混蛋男友’，

You going in and being like, he you said dump your not shit boyfriend.

这等于往人家伤口上撒盐。

Like, you're just pouring salt in the wound.

对啊。

Right.

你得特别用心，仔细考虑怎么跟她说，因为现在她明显状态不好。

It has to be a very concerted effort to be thoughtful about the way that you're approaching it and how you're delivering this to them because they're clearly the ones that are not in a positive situation right now.

没错。

Right?

你可以说，‘你别误会，我这话是为你好。’

And you say, you know, please take this in the spirit in which it's intended.

坦率和刻薄，完全是两回事。

And there's a difference between being radically honest and being cruel.

说得太对了。

Such a good point.

这需要你懂得察言观色，做个有分寸的人，知道什么时候该说实话。

And that just takes reading the room and being a good person to know when to go in and be honest.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Yes.

确实如此。

Yes.

我知道奥普拉对你前夫有过看法。

I know Oprah had an opinion on your ex husband.

天哪。

Oh, lord.

对。

Yes.

她确实有。

She did.

我想再多聊聊那段婚姻。

I wanna talk a little bit more about that marriage.

对。

Yes.

我知道，因为你刚提到不忠是这段婚姻结束的主要原因之一。

I know because you just mentioned infidelity was one of the major reasons that it ended.

是的。

Yeah.

我想深入谈谈这一点。

And I wanna get to that.

但在出轨之前，你对这段关系感觉怎么样？

But first, before the affair, how were you feeling about that relationship?

你是开心的吗？

Like, were you happy?

这是个好问题。

It's a good question.

我当时挺开心的。

I was happy.

你听过那句话吗？说妻子总是最清楚的。

And you know how they say the wife always knows?

我发誓，我真的没察觉。

I swear to god, I did not.

我真的没察觉。

I did not.

别人都说，这还用说吗，肯定知道啊。

And people say, well, of course, know no.

我真的一点都没发现。

I really didn't.

我们当然也吵过架，但完全没想到关系已经糟到他外面有人了。

Now it it's not like we hadn't had arguments or anything, but I didn't think that it was in such disrepair that he was boinking around.

我真的不知道。

I did not.

我压根没这么想过。

I did not think that.

既然你当时挺开心的，那你觉得是什么时候开始变化的？

When, if you were happy, do you think it shifted for you?

说白了， hindsight 总是特别清楚。

Well, I mean, you know, hindsight is always twenty twenty.

我要是写本书，第一章开头一定是‘啪’——网球击中的声音。

I always say if I was writing a book, the first line in my book would be whack, the sound of a tennis ball.

她说：‘打得不错啊，比尔。’

And she said, nice shot, Bill.

她说话的语气里有种特别亲密的感觉，我后颈的汗毛都竖起来了，心里就纳闷：我怎么会有这种反应？

And the way she said it, there was such a intimacy in her voice that I had a the hair stood up on the back of my neck, and I thought, why am I feeling that way?

这事儿挺怪的。

It was weird.

我之所以这样，是因为她也结婚了。

Why am I because she was married too.

我们都结婚了。

We were married.

我们各自有两个孩子，所以孩子们是朋友。

We both had two little kids, so our our kids were friends.

我们的配偶之间也挺熟的。

The spouses were friends.

但她喊‘好球，比尔’的时候，那种语气让我觉得不对劲，我后来仔细一看，确实有点异常。

But there was something about the way she said, nice shot, Bill, that I and then I I looked, and it looked.

我心想，我是不是看到他们互相看对方了？

I thought, did I see them looking at each other?

后来我在车里问他，你到底在说什么？

And when I asked him in the car, what are you talking about?

顺便说一句，他们经常会故意让你怀疑自己的感觉。

They try to gaslight you, by the way.

你在说什么？

What are you talking about?

他就说，绝对没有这回事。

And so he goes, absolutely not.

我当时还真想，我是不是对什么事反应过度了？

So I I did think, oh, you're just overreacting to what?

但我确实有很强的直觉反应。

But I did have a visceral reaction to that.

不过话说回来，我那时候还是没多想。

That said, I still didn't think anything.

奥普拉总说，有时候你会听到一个细微的提醒，如果你忽略它，它就会变成一颗小石子。

And and Oprah always says, you know, sometimes you get a whisper, and then when you ignore the whisper, then it becomes a little pebble.

再忽略这颗小石子，等你反应过来，它已经越滚越大，最后变成一场大灾难。

And then you ignore the pebble, and next thing you know you know, it keeps growing, and then you have a full blown catastrophe.

我的情况是，我提前回家，撞见他……我本来不该那么早回去的。

Mine was I came home and caught him unexpect I wasn't due home.

但你知道吗， therapists 说，可能得闹到这么极端，你才会相信这事是真的。

So but, you know, people say, the therapist said, it probably had to be that extreme for you to believe it.

因为如果你当时抓到他们，但他们没光着身子，也没穿着我的浴巾，你没亲眼看见，他可能会说，哦，她就是过来坐坐。

Because if you had caught them and they weren't buck naked, Alex, in my freaking towel, if you hadn't seen it, you might he might have said, oh, she was just over here.

我们当时，嗯，正在忙点事。

We were, you know, we were Working on something.

对。

Yes.

在忙一个项目。

Working on a pro something.

好的。

Okay.

等等。

Wait.

你能带我回那天吗？

Can you take me to that day?

你是怎么撞见那一幕的？

Like, how did you walk in on that?

那是以前的事了，那时候我还会自己开车去机场，亚历克斯。

Well, this was back in the day when you would go I used to drive myself to the airport then, Alex.

是的。

Yes.

你

You

对。

did.

是的。

Yes.

你确实去了，盖尔·金小姐。

You did, miss Gayle King.

那时候还没有优步和Lyft，得叫出租车。

Be before Uber and Lyft and when you call it a car service.

但我自己开车去机场，那时候航空公司会打电话通知你：听着。

But I drove myself to the airport, and the airline would call you to say, listen.

你的航班取消了，但如果你赶得上下一班，就能离开那儿。

Your flight has been canceled, but you can get out if you get on the next one, you can get out of there.

所以我当时在华盛顿，你知道的，基尔比和威尔还小。

So I got I was in DC, and, you know, I Kirby and Will were little.

那时候他们才两岁和三岁。

They were, like, two and three at the time.

所以我就说，孩子们，咱们得赶紧了。

So, you know, I said, guys, we gotta hurry.

快走。

Go.

我自己开车去的机场，根本没时间打电话说：喂。

I'd driven myself to the airport, so I didn't even have time to call and say, look.

航班是那个……那个……

The flight was da da da da da.

我回家了。

I'm coming home.

我根本没时间做那些事。

I didn't have time to do any of that.

我们冲进车里，赶到机场，上了车就直接回家了。

We jumped in, jumped got to the airport, got in the car, came home.

警报是开着的，我觉得挺奇怪的，因为你一个人在家啊。

And the alarm was set, which I thought, that's strange because you're in here by yourself.

你都这么大个人了。

You're a big ass grown ass man.

他从来都不设警报的。

He never sets the alarm.

我正想着，他突然从房间里冲出来，身上裹着条毛巾。

And next thing I know, he comes flying out of the room, and he's got a towel on.

他说：你不能进来。

He goes, you can't come in.

你什么意思？我为什么不能进来？

What do you mean you can't I can't come in?

你在说什么呢？

What are you talking about?

他说，你不能进这儿来。

He goes, you can't come here.

进来吧。

Come in.

有人在这儿。

Someone's here.

我问，谁啊？

I go, someone like who?

这儿根本没人。

There's nobody here.

我当时真是完全没反应过来。

I mean, I was so oblivious.

这儿没人。

There's nobody here.

让开点，比利。

Get out of the way, Billy.

这儿没人。

There's nobody here.

他说：‘真的吗？’

He goes, really?

你不准进来。

You can't come in.

于是我开始在房子里找，因为我根本不信他的话。

And I so I start searching the house because I didn't believe him.

我不信他的话。

I didn't believe him.

我蹲下去一看，他们就在那儿。

I get down, and there they are.

或者她就在那儿，裹着我的浴巾，躲在门后，亚历克斯，那条浴巾挺好的，裹着我的浴巾，就裹着我的浴巾。

Or there she is, cowering behind the door in my towel, Alex, was a nice bath sheet, in my towel, in my towel.

你刚才说什么？

What did you say?

我说，我真不敢相信你居然在这里，还干出这种事。

I said, I can't believe that you are here and that you are doing this.

我真不敢相信你居然干出这种事。

I can't believe that you are doing this.

她可是你的朋友。

She was your friend.

是的。

Yes.

我还说，我以为我们是朋友呢。

And I even said, I thought we were friends.

听起来真是可怜。

It sounded so pitiful.

我以为我们是朋友。

I thought we were friends.

所以你的孩子当时在家。

And so your kids were in the house.

你是怎么处理的呢？

How did you manage

我请了位保姆。

Well, I had a nanny.

我请了位保姆。

I had a nanny.

她是牙买加人，而且因为他坚持，我就把孩子留在了外面。

She was from Jamaica, and and I did leave the kids outside because he was so adamant.

你知道的，他们只是小小的幼儿。

You know, they're, know, they're little toddlers.

于是弗吉和孩子们在一起，我就说，弗吉，带孩子们去后面的房间，关上门。

So Virg is within with the kids, and I said, Virg, take the children and go to the backroom go to the backroom and shut the door.