泰勒·摩森：从《圣诞怪杰》到《绯闻女孩》与心碎往事

怎么了，老爹帮？我是你们的创始之父，亚历克斯·库珀带着《Call Her Daddy》来了。老爹。老爹。老爹。

What is up, daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy. Daddy. Daddy. Daddy.

泰勒·摩森，欢迎来到《Call Her Daddy》。

Taylor Momsen, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

你好。谢谢邀请我。

Hello. Thank you for having me.

终于能和你坐下来聊天我太兴奋了。我一直想邀请你上节目，这个时刻已经等了好久。所以你能来感觉特别对。

I am so excited to finally sit down with you. I feel like you've been someone that I wanted to have on, and it's been a long time coming. So it feels right that you're here.

谢谢。你最近怎么样？我非常好。

Thank you. How are you doing? I'm doing excellent.

你来洛杉矶只是为了宣传这些活动吗？

Are you in LA just for promo and everything?

宣传和摇滚名人堂活动，这周特别忙，特别忙的一周。

Promo and Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and it's a busy it's a busy week.

好的，等等。我读到过你是个夜猫子，睡得比较晚。昨晚熬夜了吗？

Okay. Wait. I read somewhere that you are a night owl, and you kind of go to bed late. Were you up late last night?

我试着早点睡。其实我昨天刚从西雅图飞过来。

I tried to go to bed. Well, I flew in I actually flew in from Seattle yesterday.

好的。

Okay.

我感觉自己至少三周没好好睡觉了。完美。我现在完全是靠意志力撑着。已经到极限了。所以我试着早点睡，大概午夜就躺下了，这对我来说已经很早了。

I feel like I haven't slept in at least three weeks. Perfect. So I'm kind of running on fumes. I'm hitting that point. So I tried to go to bed earlier, which was like midnight, which was very early for me.

好的。不过这是不是音乐人的通病？我采访过的每个音乐人都这样，一是想要晚点开工，二是他们好像真的要到凌晨1点才开始有精神。我觉得

Okay. Is this just like all musicians though? Because every single musician I've interviewed, one wants a late start and two, it's like they don't they literally like start their nights at like 1AM. I think

我的大脑要到晚上七点左右才会清醒。

my brain doesn't wake up until like seven.

好的。晚上7点？

Okay. I 7PM?

晚上7点。完美。就是说，7点之前我都能到场做事，但我的大脑要到7点才能进入最佳状态。

7PM. Perfect. So, like, anything before 07:00, I can show up, I can do it, but it's my brain just isn't at its highest functioning quality until, like, seven.

但你觉得这是因为你经常演出、写歌，所以晚上最有创造力吗？

But do you think that's because you're playing shows and writing music and you're most creative at night?

我觉得部分原因肯定是巡演养成的熬夜习惯。一旦适应了这种作息就很难调整。但就算年轻时没有巡演，我也发现如果强迫自己早睡，就算睡着了第二天反而比熬夜更累，这很奇怪。

I think definitely a part of it is the routine of used to being up late because of touring and things. Right. So you get on that schedule, and then it's just hard to switch a schedule. But I've always found, even when I was younger and I didn't have that, if if I try to go to bed early, I can't even if I fall asleep, I'm more tired the next day than if I just stay up and then sleep less. It's it's a weird thing.

但我确实发现我的创意大脑在夜间才开始工作。

But I definitely find creative like, my creative brain starts to work at night.

好吧。很高兴你现在清醒着和我们在一起。这太棒了。很好。

Okay. Well, I'm happy that you're awake and you're here. This is Fabulous. Made it. Okay.

你是The Pretty Reckless的主唱对吧？你们刚发了圣诞EP？我感觉这和你乐队一贯风格很不同，需要说服其他成员参与吗？

You are the lead singer of the Pretty Reckless I am. Band. Can we talk though about that you have a Christmas EP that just came out? And I feel like, just from the vibes, I'm like, this is a departure from what your band is usually doing. Did you have to convince everyone to do this?

这个主意主要是你提出的吗？

And like, was it primarily your idea?

这是我的主意。好吧，让我重新表述一下。实际上这是粉丝的主意。这是Taylor Momsen的《Pretty Reckless圣诞特辑》，我要演唱《圣诞怪杰》里的《圣诞在哪里？》。这件事要追溯到我14岁刚组建The Pretty Reckless时，每年人们都会把我是辛迪·卢和《圣诞怪杰》联系起来。

It was my idea. Well, let me rephrase that. It was actually it was the fan's idea. So this is something that it's Taylor Momsen's Pretty Reckless Christmas, and I'm doing the song from the Grinch, Where Are You Christmas? And that was something that when I first formed The Pretty Reckless when I was 14, every year, people put the connection together that I was Cindy Louhoo and The Grinch.

年复一年，这种联想呈指数级增长，越来越多人建立起这种联系。这始终是件有趣的事，你会会心一笑觉得挺可爱。每年他们都会要求做个摇滚版的《圣诞在哪里？》。而十五年来，我的反应都是：绝对不行，这在任何世界线里都不是我会做的事。

And every year, it got more and more exponential and more and more people, you know, put that together. And it was always kind of a funny thing that, you know, you smile at and you go, that's cute. And every year they'd go do a rock version of Where Are You Christmas? And for, I don't know, fifteen years, I went, no way. Like, in zero worlds is this something I would ever do.

时间快进到新冠时期。我们经历了许多失去，在Pretty Reckless的世界和我的个人生活里都是非常艰难的时期。由于封锁令我们无事可做，唯一能做的就是和乐队一起排练——毕竟我们聚在一起是安全的。

Fast forward to it's COVID. We've gone through a lot of loss. Like, it's a very hard time in the pretty reckless world and in my life. And there's nothing to do because we're in lockdown. And so the only thing to do is to rehearse with the band because we're all cool to be together.

于是我们在排练室度过了大量时间。随着节日临近，我们又看到了那些'做个摇滚版圣诞歌'的评论。我转向大家说：要不我们试试看？看看会发生什么？

And so we just spent a lot of time in the rehearsal studio. The holidays were coming up. We're starting to see these comments again of do a rock version of Worry Christmas. And we kind of all I kinda turned to everyone and went, should we just try this? Like, should we just see what happens here?

我们编排了一个版本——这其实挺棘手的，因为原曲根本不算完整歌曲，只有一分钟长。要把它扩展成三分半的曲子，我们费了些功夫。在排练室即兴演奏一遍后，亚历克斯，说真的，唱完时我们四个原本抑郁沮丧的人脸上都绽放了大大的笑容。

And so we put together an arrangement, which was actually kind of tricky because it's it's not really a full song. It's a it's a minute long. And so to make it a three and a half minute song, whatever, we worked that out. We go into the rehearsal space, and we jam through it once. And I kid you not, Alex, by the end of the song, these four depressed, miserable people had giant grins on our faces.

我们面面相觑：刚才是不是超棒？好像有某种魔法刚刚发生了。我们现在真要这么做吗？就这么定了。这就是一切的开始。

And we all kinda looked at each other and went, was that just great? Like, I think that there was something magic that just happened here. Are we doing this now? We're doing this. So that's where it started.

后来我决定——以我一贯的彻底作风——要让这个企划有意义，需要赋予它语境，让它与现在的我产生关联，让我的创作具有实质内涵。于是我围绕它创作了一整张原创圣诞专辑。

And then I decided in order to being me and being very thorough with everything, in order to have it I needed it to have context, and I needed it to equate to me now, and, you know, all the things that there's there's actually some substance to the what I'm doing. So I wrote an entire original Christmas record around it.

你当然会这么做。

That's Of course you did.

而我当然也这么做了。

And of course I did.

但事实是粉丝们也不断在呼吁，来吧，把我们的辛迪·露·胡带回来。我今天想深入探讨这个话题，因为我知道关于你早期职业生涯有很多可聊的。我和很多女演员聊过，她们后来都转型了，嗯...女性要转型真的特别困难。

And so But the the fact that it came also from like, the fans relentlessly being like, come on, like Yeah. Bring our girl Cindy Lou who back, like, come on. And I which I wanna get into today because I know there's a lot to discuss in terms of like, your early career. And I feel like I've had a lot of conversations with actresses who then go into different roles in their career of just like Mhmm. Making a pivot as a woman is so difficult.

所以有时候你必须抛弃你成名的角色，甚至可以说是背弃那个形象，才能在另一个领域被认真对待。

And so sometimes, you have to abandon who you were known for, and really really almost like kinda turn your back on that to be taken seriously in another department.

哦，

Oh, a

百分之百确定的是，你现在能坐在这里，面带微笑在采访中提起辛迪·露·胡。要是我十年前采访你，你可能会说根本不想谈这个。

100 The fact that you are now sitting here and like even like being able to like smile and say Cindy Lou Who with a smile in an interview, like, I'm sure if I interviewed you maybe ten years ago, you would be like, I don't even wanna talk about that.

是啊，这其中肯定有某种

Yeah. There's definitely an element of

就是这样。所以是有成长的。

that. So there's growth.

哦，成长可太多了。而且我觉得，你知道，如果不提我们经历的那些失去，那就是我的失职。那段时间对我来说很艰难。我认为从那种悲痛中走出来，到达彼岸，这在很多方面迫使我反思自己的人生。就像格林奇，回到了最初，对我来说格林奇一直都很棒。我对格林奇没有任何不好的回忆。

Oh, there's tons of growth. And I think also, you know, I'd be remiss to not mention the loss that we went through and the it was a hard time for me. And I think coming out of that grief and getting to the other side of it, it it forced me to kinda reflect on my life in a lot of ways. And Grinch like, went back to the very beginning, and Grinch to me was always great. Like, I don't have any bad memories with Grinch.

关于它的一切都很棒。超级有趣。我当时非常年轻。但参与这样一个顶级项目真是不可思议，在那么小的年纪就能看到吉姆·凯瑞、莫莉·香农等那样水准的演员，还有朗·霍华德等等。那也是我第一次在录音室的经历。

Everything about it was awesome. Like, it was super fun. I was super young. But there were so many it was such an incredible project to be a part of that was so upper echelon at such a young age to see, you know, actors of that caliber and of Jim Carrey and Molly Shannon, etcetera, etcetera, Ron Howard. And then it was also my first experience in a recording studio.

所以，你知道，当电影上映时，我在学校，就因为这个被无情地嘲笑。你是格林奇女孩。我经常搬家。所有这些对小时候的我来说都很艰难。但长大后回想起来，我觉得不是这样的。

And so, you know, when I was when the movie came out and stuff when I was in school, like, you're teased relentlessly for it. You're Grinch girl. I've moved around a lot. Like, all of that kind of stuff was hard for me as a kid. But when I got older and looking back on it, I go, no.

发生的所有事情，制作这部电影的所有经历都很美好。那我为什么要回避它呢？我就是辛迪·卢·胡。我还是那个女孩。我想我们

All of those things that happened, all of those experiences of making this film was wonderful. And so why am I shunning this, and like, I am Cindy Louhoo. Like, I am that girl. Like, I'm still that girl. I think we're

年龄相仿。你31岁？32岁？我31岁。我想回到最初，因为我知道你很早就开始了职业生涯。

a similar age. Are you 31? 32? I'm 31. And I wanna go back to the beginning because I know you started your career so young.

但即使我们要谈论格林奇，我也在想这个问题。我读到过你因为这个角色被欺负。是啊。我坐在那里就想，什么？怎么会？这简直是最具标志性、最不可思议的，这部电影永远流传。

But even when we're gonna talk about the Grinch, I was thinking about that where I read that you had been bullied for this role. Yeah. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, what? Like, what do you what? What like, that is the most like iconic, incredible, this movie has lived forever.

我每年都会看。你那时可爱又完美，无可挑剔。但后来情况就变了，你就像个普通孩子去上学，而孩子们真是混蛋。没错。不管是因为嫉妒还是他们真觉得你是个所谓的怪胎。

I watch it every single year. Like, you were adorable and perfect and all the things. But then it's like, oh no, but you're also just like a normal kid then going to school and kids are fucking assholes. Yep. Because whether it was Or jealousy or they actually just thought you were a quote unquote freak.

他们就说，你是格林奇女孩，然后你就——

They're like, you're the Grinch girl and you're like

哦，是啊。

Oh, yeah.

在那个年纪，这部精彩电影本身并不重要，重要的是同龄人怎么说。如果他们因此觉得你不酷，你就会内化成‘我这样不酷’的想法。

So at that age, it doesn't matter that this is like this incredible movie. It matters what your peers are saying, and if they're saying you're not cool for that, then you digest that to be like, I'm not cool for this.

哦是啊。而且我并不是在好莱坞家庭长大的，我出生在圣路易斯。

Oh, yeah. And I didn't grow up in a Hollywood household or anything. Like, I was born in Saint Louis.

等等，先倒回去说。据我所知你两岁左右就入行了？

Okay. Wait. Take me back. You get into the industry from what I understand around like two years old.

对。

Yeah.

你父母是怎么向你解释他们为什么让你这么小就入行的？

How do your parents even explain to you like why they got you in so young?

我前几天还在聊这个，我觉得需要再和父母谈谈，因为我都不完全清楚来龙去脉。我知道他们让我做模特。我两岁时签约了福特模特经纪公司，当时我特别爱说话，怎么说呢...活泼外向。后来我的模特公司问：她有演艺经纪人吗？我父母说没有。

I was just talking about this the other day, and I think I need to have another conversation with my parents because I don't even fully know the story. I know they put me into modeling. I was signed by Ford Modeling Agency when I was two, and I was very chatty and I don't know, abuncular. They went my modeling agency said, does she have an acting agent? And my parents went, no.

他们就说：那她应该找一个，去这家经纪公司吧。他们送我去第一次试镜，当天就通过了。那是给Shake and Bake拍的广告，当时我三岁。这是个全国性的商业广告。这可以说是个转折点，他们当时可能觉得：哦，我们真能靠这个做点事情。

And they went, okay, well, she should, so go over to this agency. They sent me on my first audition and I booked it that day. It was for Shake and Bake and I was three. So that it was a national commercial. And so that was kind of the kicking off point where I think they went, oh, we can do something with this for real.

所以这就是一切的开始。

And so that was that was the start of it.

所以你从模特起步，是童模出身。那时候有什么核心记忆吗？还是说因为年纪太小了？

So you start as a model. Started as a kid model. And do you have any like core memories or no? You were just so young?

基本没有。那些照片我之所以记得，只是因为后来看到过。

Not really. Like, I only remember the photos because I've seen them, you know.

明白了。然后你六岁就参演了《圣诞怪杰》。

Okay. So then you get the Grinch at six.

那个也很模糊。是5656。大概是在那段时间。

That's also blurry. It's 5656. Somewhere in there.

好的。56，你饰演辛迪·卢·胡。跟我聊聊试镜的事。你还记得试镜的情况吗？

Okay. 56, you star as Cindy Lou Who. Talk to me about like the audition. Do you remember the audition at all?

我只记得试镜的片段，因为那是个很漫长的过程。所以时间线有点模糊。我记得五岁开始参加试镜，电影上映时我已经七岁了。中间当然过了几个生日。但试镜过程确实很长。

I remember pieces of the audition because it was a really long process. That's why the timeline's a little blurry. So I think I started auditioning for it when I was five and it came out when I was seven. So I had birthdays in between there, obviously. But the audition process was long.

我记得去了很多轮试镜。印象最深的是最终筛选，当时就剩我和另外两个女孩。我们试戴了各种假发，他们那时才开始构思辛迪的形象。我从霓虹粉假发换到绿色，再到黄色，试穿各种服装。作为孩子我觉得特别好玩，就像玩变装游戏一样有趣。

I remember going in, it's lots of rounds of it. And I remember the screen testing the most because that's where it was down to me and two other girls. And we got to try on wigs, and that's where they were starting to kind of put together what Cindy's gonna look like. And so I went from a neon pink wig to a green wig to a yellow wig to this kind of outfit to this kind of outfit. And that process was really, really fun for me as a kid because you get to play dress up, and it's awesome.

所以都是些片段记忆。这么小就开始演戏很难分清哪些是真实记忆，哪些是别人讲述后变成的记忆。而且我能看到自己整个成长过程，所以很难区分哪些是真正记得的，哪些是通过影像回忆起来的。

So it's it's pieces of it. Every it's hard starting so young, it's always hard to remember what you remember and what you remember because people have told you the stories and you've turned them into memories. Also, I can watch my entire life. So it's how much do you remember? How much are you watching it and remembering from that, you know?

是的。这就像童年时父母告诉你的事情，虽然情况不同但很相似。

Yeah. Because it's like similar, very different, but similar just for a kid in your childhood, you get told things by your parents. Yeah.

然后你就会觉得'哦，酷'。看到照片时，你可能会虚构出一些自以为记得的事情。完全正确。但我们那时太小了，才五岁左右。

And then you're like, oh, cool. Yeah. And you see a picture, and then you can kind of also like, fakely come up with what you think you remember from that. Exactly. But we're so fucking young, and like five years old.

因为我当时在想，你说戴这些假发很有趣，但你是否记得自己曾因为参与如此盛大的活动而感到些许畏惧？或者你甚至

Because I was thinking, you're saying it was so fun to do these, try on these wigs, but do you remember any part of you in any capacity being like intimidated by being a part of something so big, or you didn't I even

完全没那种感觉。我我我从不记得有过紧张之类的情绪。那很有趣。就像我说的，格林奇对我来说非常积极正面，那段回忆简直太棒了。好吧。

didn't understand that. And I I I never remember being nervous or anything like that. It was it was fun. It was like that's what I'm saying, like Grinch is like is so positive for me, like that my memories of that are so awesome. Okay.

你得去

You had to go to

哪个学校？抱歉。就迁就一下 不 是我因为我们要

who school? Sorry. Just indulge No. Me because like we're gonna

哪个学校？关于乐趣的。

Who school? About fun.

高中时光太棒了。你还记得那段时期参与过最疯狂的事情吗？

High school was amazing. Do you remember like the wildest things that you got to be a part of during that time?

整个霍格学校持续了大概七个月，所有人包括杂技演员都在训练表演技巧，共同构建罗恩脑海中那个异想天开、夸张至极的霍维尔世界。走进那个像机库一样的场地时感觉非常震撼。

Well, the entire Who School was I think it was like seven months long of all the people and all the acrobats training to to learn to act and and create this world that Ron saw in his head of this whimsical over the top Whoville. So they had so walking into that was a big, you know, like, what are they called? Like hangers. Yeah. Yeah.

环球影城的片场。没错。那里原本空荡荡的，但他们布置了巨大的、你知道的、真人尺寸的杂技球，还有人在做后空翻。当你走进这个世界时，你会觉得这到底是什么儿童乐园？而且所有特技都是我自己完成的，所以我必须学习特技训练。

Sets on Universal Lot. Yep. And it was just empty, but they had giant, you know, life size balls that acrobats are walking on, and people doing back flips. And so you walked into this world, and you're just going, what is this kid playground? And I I did all my own stunts, so I had to learn how to I did stunt training.

好吧等等。但你不需要做特效化妆对吧？

Okay. Wait. But you didn't have to do the prosthetics. Right?

确实不用做特效化妆。瑞克·贝克给我做了面部倒模，完成造型后，大家似乎一致认为让一个孩子每天经受特效化妆太残忍了。所以他们在剧本里加了一句'我的鼻子还没长开'。

Didn't have to do the prosthetics. They Rick Baker molded my face, and after he casted me and stuff, I think everyone just kinda collectively decided that that's too much to put a kid through, to have to go into prosthetics every day. So they wrote it into the script that I haven't grown into my nose yet.

说真的，这样很可爱。我刚刚还在想这事，因为好像看过一篇文章说金·凯瑞每天要坐八个半小时。嗯。做特效化妆。

No. Honestly, adorable. I also was thinking about that because I think I saw an article somewhere where it was like, Jim Carrey would sit in like eight and a half hours Mhmm. Of prosthetics.

那些特效化妆简直要了他的命。真的。据我所知，过程非常折磨人。他好像...金叔如果我说错了请纠正...但没记错的话，他确实接受过海军特种部队式的抗折磨训练，因为全身都要被特效覆盖。

Prosthetics, and it killed him. Like Truly. From what I remember, it was brutal on Insane. He went I think he feel free Jim, feel free to tell me if I'm wrong. But if I remember correctly, I think he went through actual torture training, like with a real Navy SEAL guy to learn how to deal with it because it he's he's so covered.

我是说那套戏服，还有隐形眼镜。记得有次人造雪飘下来，雪花钻进他隐形眼镜下面，简直要了他的命，疼得要死。太遭罪了。

I mean, the suit, the and the contacts. I remember there was a time when because we had all that fake snow coming down, and snow got underneath his contact, and it, you know, killed him, like, so painful. No. No.

真的无法想象。但他确实用惊艳的方式赋予了角色生命。你还记得和他对戏的感觉吗？毕竟他可是天才级别的演员，厉害得离谱。

No. I I genuinely can't imagine, but then obviously, like, he brought it to life in such a beautiful way. Do you remember just like what it was like having him as your co star? Because he's obviously so fucking talented. It's like crazy.

太疯狂了。看到那种天赋水平，真的。在那么小的年纪，我觉得对我影响很大。是啊，能看到有人对自己的技艺如此认真。

Insane. To see that level of of talent Yeah. At such a young age, I think really had a big impact on me. Yeah. Just to see someone who takes their craft that seriously.

经常有人问我他是否吓到过我，你知道，因为我觉得很多小孩都害怕格林奇。但他从不让我害怕。对我来说，他始终是吉姆，始终化着妆。他非常保护我，非常友善，超级有趣，超级活泼。

And I get asked a lot if he scared me, you know, because everyone I think a lot of kids were scared of the Grinch. He's never scary to me. To me, he was always Jim and he was always in makeup. He was very protective of me. He was very kind, super funny, super animated.

简直棒极了。但有趣的是我从来不知道金·凯瑞长什么样，因为我从没见过他——他总是很早就来化妆做特效。天啊，所以你就像...

Like, absolutely awesome. But the funny thing is I never knew what Jim Carrey looked like because I never saw him because he was there way early doing the prosthetics. Oh my god. So you're like

金·凯瑞就是...

Jim Carrey is the

金·凯瑞就是格林奇。所以我直到首映式才知道吉姆是谁。有人得指给我看说'那是吉姆'，我才反应过来'哦，吉姆'。

Jim Carrey is the Grinch. So I didn't know who Jim was until the premiere. And someone had to point him out to me and go, that's Jim. And I went, oh, Jim.

这太颠覆认知了。你会想'等等，我认得这声音，但你是...'是啊。哇，好吧。

That's such a mind fuck. You're like, wait a second. I know the voice, but you're Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay.

我们正在谈论你人生中这个美好时刻。就像你之前提到的，然后你回到学校。你经历着最不可思议的事——孩子们会梦寐以求的，你在这些片场，做着所有这些...然后你回到学校。你住在圣路易斯吗？

So we're talking about this, like, beautiful moment in your life. And then like you referenced earlier, then you go back to school. So you're, like, experiencing the most incredible like, kids would dream of this, and you're on these sets, and you're doing all the Yeah. And then you go back to school. And are you living in Saint Louis?

住在圣路易斯。我爸爸在那里工作，我当时上天主教学校。哦。我也是，就这么回事。

Living in Saint Louis. My dad works there, and I was going to Catholic school. Oh. And Oh, Me too, That's the whole thing.

哦，哦，情况怎么样？

Oh. Oh, how'd that go?

哦，棒极了。你不知道吗？修女们不是很棒吗？

Oh, wonderful. Don't you know? Weren't the nuns awesome?

她们是那么慈爱又善解人意。

They were so loving and understanding.

真是慈爱又善解人意啊。我最喜欢我长高后裙子变短因此受罚的时候了。那可太有趣了。别说了。她们真的会拿尺子量。你必须这么做吗？

So loving and understanding. I loved when my got really tall and my skirt got too short and I got punished for it. That was super fun. Stop. They're like literally measuring Did to the you have to do it?

你做过跪姿测量吗？就是让你跪着从臀部往下量？泰勒，我

Did you do the kneel? Yes. Where they make you kneel and measure from your hip down? Taylor, I

想屏蔽这段记忆，因为我当时就想，不，求你别让我回忆。我同意你的说法。有些个子矮的女孩可以穿稍短的裙子蒙混过关，但如果你个子高

like black it out because I was like, no, please don't make me. And I agree with you. Some girls got away if they were shorter with like the skirts could be a little shorter, but if you were tall

我只是长大了，这不是我的错。我经历了一段快速生长期，但不行，你有麻烦了。

And I just outgrew it. It's not my fault. I went through a growth spurt, but nope, you're in trouble.

好的。所以你经历了这一切。跟我聊聊你小时候的事，比如，你有朋友吗？

Okay. So you're going through all this. Talk to me though about being a kid and like, did you have friends?

你能交到朋友吗？我每个阶段总有一两个亲密朋友。但我经历了太多自我转变。最奇怪的是，其实我很害羞，没人猜得到。我外在表现是表演者、专业人士那一面。

Were you able to make friends? I I always I've always had like a couple close friends in every stage of my life, one or two. But making I was I've I've gone through so many phases of myself. Like, think the the weirdest thing that people probably don't know about me is that I'm actually really shy and no one guesses that. And so I have this external version of myself that is the performer and the professional and the all of that.

这就是为什么创作歌曲对我如此重要，因为那才是我能做真实自己的地方。我很小就开始写了，大概五岁左右。

But that's where, like, songwriting became really important to me because that's where I felt like I could be me. And I started writing when I was really little. So, like, around Grinch, like, five.

但我认为这很合理，现在更深入这个行业后，我发现很多演员都会经历这种奇怪时刻——念别人写的台词，按导演要求表演，缺乏自主权。所以需要有个真正属于自己的出口，很多演员都在寻找这个。

But I think that makes sense, because now being more involved in the industry, like, I think a lot of actors, not everyone, like, goes through these weird moments where it's like, I'm reading the lines that someone else wrote. Mhmm. I'm doing what the director is telling me to do. And so, like, there there's not a lot of autonomy that you've got going on in these So, like, to have something as an outlet that, like, you can genuinely have for yourself, I think a lot of actors try to find that for themselves. Because we, as consumers, think that these actors are like, they somehow maybe wrote the lines or they did these things.

是啊。很多演员都说：'不，我只是在按别人的要求做'。你从小就开始念台词、扮演角色，大家都通过这些角色认识你。

Yeah. And then a lot of actors are like, no, I'm like, just doing what everyone's telling me to do. Yeah. And that from a young age of like, you're starting so young of reading these lines, being these characters, everyone knows you as these characters. Yeah.

你会想：等等，抛开这些，泰勒作为普通人到底是谁？

You're like, wait, wait, wait, who is Taylor as a human being outside of that? Well, I

我认为我一直有很强的自我意识。我一直很清楚这一点，这就是为什么《格林奇》很奇怪，但当你进入青少年时期的《格林奇》时就很具体了，然后当你进入青春期，面对《绯闻女孩》之类的事情时，我认为我的身份危机开始显现，因为那是一个完全不同的世界。《格林奇》是一部电影，它显然存在于想象世界中。你知道，我不会戴着辛迪·卢胡的假发走出家门。所以对我来说有一条明确的界限，我认为这是纯粹的装扮，这才是泰勒。

think I always had a really strong sense of self. I always knew that, and, you know, that's why Grinch is weird, but once you get into teen Grinch is specific, and then once you get into teenage years with Gossip Girl and things, that's where I think my identity crisis started to come into play where because that was a whole different world. Grinch is a film that came out that it clearly lives in an imagination in an imagination world. You know, I don't walk out of my house and have a Cindy Louhoo wig on. So there was a clear line there for me, I think, where this is plain dress up and this is Taylor.

当进入《绯闻女孩》的世界后，突然那成了一个名人秀和八卦节目，充斥着纽约和狗仔队，突然间你作为一个角色被狗仔队拍摄，并以泰勒的身份被刊登在小报上，我就想，那不是我穿的衣服，那不是我，那是个角色。而我却因为剧中角色的行为而遭受攻击，那些与我本人毫无关系。我当时还很年轻。

And when it got into Gossip Girl and suddenly that was a celebrity show and a tabloid show and New York and paparazzi, and suddenly you're being photographed as a character by paparazzi and put into the tabloids as Taylor, and it's going I'm going, that's not what I was wearing. That's not me. That's a character. And I'm getting hate from things I did on the show that I have nothing to do with. And so I think and I was young.

我那时14岁，所以我觉得这开始困扰我，那时我开始意识到，我不擅长成为别人的工具。我需要做我自己。另外，

I was 14, so I think that that started to bother me, and that's where I started to realize, like, I'm not good at being someone else's tool. Like, I need to be my own Also,

泰勒，你是说14岁吗？

Taylor, you saying 14?

是的。14岁？13岁拍的试播集。13岁和

Yeah. 14? 13 and pilot. 13 and

14岁，那正是人们上高中的年纪。嗯。即使你不是演员，我们那时都头脑混乱。哦，是的。因为我们都在想，我是谁？

14, that's like right when people are going into high school. Mhmm. And even if you're not an actress, we're all fucked in the head. Oh, yeah. Because we're like, who am I?

有些人青春期来得比别人快，有些人在摸索自己的性别认同，有些人感到困惑，而你就像，什么？我是谁？我简直一团糟。更不用说还要在世界舞台上经历这些，扮演一个可能有点像你但其实不是你的角色，这压力太大了。

And some people are going through puberty faster than others, and some people have, you know, are figuring out their sexual identity, and some people feel and you're just like, what? Who am I? I am a disaster. So to also be doing it on the world stage and playing a character that can somewhat seem like you, but it's not you, it's just it's a lot.

这简直让人精神崩溃。

It was a mind fuck.

所以你住在圣路易斯。是的。你得到更多工作机会，然后13岁就参演了《绯闻女孩》。嗯，我们当时

So you're living in St. Louis. Yes. You get more jobs, and then you get Gossip Girl at 13 years old. Well, we were

错过了一次搬家机会。所以我在圣路易斯住到10岁。好吧。后来我父亲换了工作，我们就搬到了马里兰州。

missing a move. So I lived in St. Louis till I was 10. Okay. And then my dad switched jobs, and we moved to Maryland.

于是我现在在马里兰州上初中，刚组建了人生第一支乐队，是真正和学校同学组成的车库乐队。我终于找到了自己的小圈子，这是我人生中第一次有这种感觉，让我非常兴奋。但我依然是那个怪异的艺术生，你知道的，穿着战斗靴和皮夹克上学。这里是马里兰州的波托马克，当地风格非常学院派，女生们都爱在头发上系蝴蝶结，穿UGG雪地靴和Juicy Couture运动套装。所以我总是显得与学校格格不入。

So now I'm in middle school in Maryland, and I have just started my first band, like an actual garage band with kids from my school. I finally found my little click, which was kind of the first time in my life I felt that, and it was exciting to me. And I was still the weird art kid who, you know, wore combat boots and leather jackets to school. And and this was Potomac, Maryland, so this is very preppy and Love that for all the girls had bows in their hair and UGGs and matching juicy couture sweat suits. And so I was very always just off in schools.

就这样我找到了自己的圈子，结识了艺术爱好者们，组建了第一支乐队，一切都很顺利。可以说我已经完全适应了学校和这群朋友。就在这时《绯闻女孩》的机会出现了。他们告诉我，你得搬到纽约去试镜，而且必须为此搬到纽约。不。

So I found my, you know, found my crowd, found the art crowd, started my first band and was doing really well. Like, I was I was well adjusted to this to school and this group of friends. And that's when Gossip Girl came around. And that's when my I said, they go, you're gonna move to New York, you're gonna audition for this and you would have to move to New York for it. No.

不要。我不想再继续了。我很满意现在的生活。当时我才12岁，我的经纪人和经理都飞到我家，劝我去试镜，说这是个绝佳机会，能让我搬到纽约，这部剧以时尚为主题，而我又热爱时尚，喜欢纽约等等等等。

No. No. I don't wanna do this anymore. I love what I'm I love where I'm at. And 12 at the time, and my agent, my manager, they all flew to my house to convince me to audition for this going, this is gonna be a great opportunity, and you'll get to move to New York, and it's fashion based, you love fashion, and you love New York, and blah blah blah.

长话短说，最后我还是去纽约参加了试镜。那时候你父母是什么态度？哦，他们都在场。他们很支持——我是说，他们支持这个决定。我认为他们完全没有恶意或别的什么不好的想法。

So long story short, ended up going to New York to audition for it. Where are your parents at this point? Oh, they're there. They're encouraging the I mean, they're encouraging this choice. And I don't think it was with any kind of malice or anything like that.

我认为他们只是在考虑，这是一个巨大的机会，仅仅因为你现在在学校过得开心，并不意味着你要错过这么重要的事情。你有没有因为...

I think they're just looking at going, this is a huge opportunity, and just because you're having a good time in school right now, it doesn't mean you pass up on something that's this massive. Did you at all because I

我知道我和一些童星聊过，很明显存在经济压力，就像你是个工作的孩子。我知道这是个尴尬的话题，所以你可以分享你愿意说的部分。但这个因素在决定中有影响吗？

know I've talked to kid child actors that, like, there is, like, an obvious the financial pressure of just, like, you're a working child. And I know it's, an awkward topic, so like share what you're comfortable. But like, was that a factor at all in this decision?

没人跟我提过这个，要知道我当时甚至还不是青少年。所以我从没意识到自己在赚钱。这么说吧，是的。所以这始终是件有趣的事，你喜欢这个，而且有种元素是，做得好就会得到表扬。

It wasn't spoken about to me, you know, and I'm still not even a teenager yet. So the I never realized I was making money. Let's put it that way. Yeah. So that kind of this was always this is fun and you like this and there was an element of, you know, you do well, you get praise.

做得不好就没有。所以有很多需要反思的，我想作为一个成年人回头看。现在我生活中大部分时间都不去想这些，因为我是那种不会活在后悔中或希望改变过去的人，这不是我的风格。我觉得这毫无意义。所以我总是向前看，我反思事情是为了写作和处理它们。

You don't do well, you don't. And so a lot to unpack, I think probably as an adult looking back on it. And I think a lot of my life now I spend not really thinking about it and going because I'm one that very much does not live with regret or wishing I could change things or That's just not my vibe. Because I think it's kind of pointless. So I'm very, like, I'm always looking forward, and I reflect on things in order to write about them, and process them, and that kind of stuff.

但事情就是这样。所以没有。在这一点上。你懂我的意思吧？

But it is what it is So no. At this point. You know what I mean?

再次，我认为现在全世界对童星有种自然的同理心。是的。因为我想到了很多经历过这些的人透露出的真实情况。当你参演《绯闻女孩》时，你那时意识到自己在赚钱了吗？

Again, I think like, it's there's a natural, like, empathy that I think like, the world now just has for child actors. Yeah. Because I think of just like, the honest truth that just has come out for a lot of these people that like went through this. And like, when you did get into Gossip Girl, did you then understand that you were making money? Or like Yes.

你觉得到了哪个阶段你才意识到，等等，伙计们，这个也是属于我的？

At what point do you think you were like, wait, you guys, I this is also like mine?

那是《绯闻女孩》，当时我年纪很小就离家独立了。正是在那个时期，我开始意识到自己要突然负责自己的财务之类的事情。那时我才把所有事情串联起来。但《绯闻女孩》这部剧很特别，一方面它很棒，另一方面我真的不想参与其中。

It was Gossip Girl, and it was well, I I left I moved out really young. So it was around that time that I started to realize, like, suddenly I was becoming in charge of my own finances and and that kind of stuff. And so that's when I kind of put everything together. But it was it was Gossip Girl that made Gossip Girl's a weird one because, like, in one way it was, you know, it was awesome. And in the other way, I really didn't wanna be there.

那是我开始真正找到自我的阶段，而音乐成为了我的锚点，因为我那时已经开始创作。我一直在写歌，一直在幕后做这些事情，但突然因为与真实自我无关的事物而举世闻名，这对我来说非常具有挑战性。所以我立刻变得非常防备，在采访中也充满戒心。

It was this it was this it was me starting to come into my own as a person and having this tug is where music is the thing because I was starting to do that. I was always writing songs. I was always doing these things behind the scenes, but now to be so universally famous for something that isn't me was really challenging for me. And so I felt like I immediately became very defensive. I was defensive in interviews.

我当时还很年轻，所以傲慢又有点混蛋。但所有这些都是在众目睽睽下摸索，并因此受到严厉评判，同时还要反抗着说'我不要这个，我要的是那边'，却不知道如何到达那个地方。

I was very also young, so arrogant and kind of an asshole and, you know, But all those in figuring it front of everyone and being judged, you know, very harshly for it while trying to push back against that going, I don't want this, I want this over here, and I don't know how to get to this place.

这就像一旦火车启动就无法停止，我们都知道《绯闻女孩》后来有多火，它——

It's almost like you couldn't stop it once the train started moving, and as we know how big Gossip Girl got, it

完全出乎所有人的预料。

was No like one expected that.

是啊。好吧。带我去见你的经纪人做决定，好吧，你必须接这个。最终你答应了，去了纽约。

Yeah. Okay. Take me to your agents decide, okay, you gotta do this. You eventually say yes. You go to New York.

你去试镜时，对珍妮·汉弗瑞这个角色的第一印象是什么？

You read for the part, like what what was your first impression of Jenny Humphrey?

嗯，我是说，我某种程度上能理解这个角色。我从不试镜那些我不理解的角色，那种在一个你不适应的世界里感觉像个局外人的状态，某种程度上那就是我。虽然我不是来自布鲁克林之类的，但作为角色的整体概念，我确实与她产生了共鸣。

Well, mean, I kind of related to the character. I never really auditioned for things that I didn't understand, and feeling like an outcast in a, you know, in a world that you don't fit in was kind of, that's who I was. It wasn't, yeah, I wasn't from Brooklyn and then all that stuff, but it was as a general concept of a character, I I identified with her.

我感觉现在，我正想说这个，就像，哦，这最近对你来说在《格林奇》里也是个主题，但想想，你14岁在片场，其他人至少都二十五六岁了。是的。你绝对是片场最年轻的人。这种状态对你有什么影响？

I feel like now, I was about to say this, I'm like, oh, this was kind of a theme lately in the Grinch for you too, but like, you're 14 on set and everyone else is like bare minimum mid twenties. Yes. Like you are beyond the youngest person really on this set. How did that dynamic impact you?

嗯，我成长得很快。可以这么说。不过不，我是说，大家都很好。特别是康纳，他演埃里克的那个。

Well, I grew up real fast. Let's put it that way. But no, I mean, everyone was cool. It was I still Connor, who played Eric. Eric.

他现在还是我最好的朋友之一。超爱那家伙。

He's still one of my best friends. Love that guy.

那很好啊，毕竟你和他有很多对手戏。

Well, that's nice because you also had like a lot of scenes with him.

和他有很多对手戏。好吧。而且当我刚搬到纽约时，他就像我的导师，我后来甚至去了他的高中。他把我介绍给他的朋友圈，让我融入那个世界，虽然我只待了大约一年就提前毕业了——因为高一的时候我想去表演艺术高中，那是唯一能让我请假工作的方式。我特别不想在家自学，因为我想要交朋友。

A lot of scenes with him. Okay. And he kind of when I first moved to New York, he took me under his wing, I actually ended up going to his high school. And so he introduced me to his friend group and, you know, that kind of whole world, which was only about a year I ended up graduating early because freshman and trying to go to it had to be a performing arts high school because that's the only way that I could leave and work and they would give you your work to leave. And I was really adamant about not wanting to be homeschooled because I wanted to make friends.

但现实是工作安排太满，我根本没法去学校。所以最后我还是选择了在家自学，并在16岁就毕业了。

But the reality is the work schedule was too much and I wasn't going there anyway. So I ended up leaving that homeschooling and then graduating at 16.

但你16岁了，而且你

But So you're 16 and you're

15岁。16岁。

15. 16.

15岁。你住在纽约市。你已经不上高中了。不拍戏的时候你在做什么？

15. You're living in New York City. You're no longer going to high school. What are you doing when you're not filming?

我在录音室工作。我在录音室写歌和工作，然后惹上麻烦。你知道吗？就是典型的麻烦。

I was working in the studio. I was writing and working in the studio and then getting into trouble. You know? Typical trouble.

典型的就像你在纽约市会做的那样，作为一个年轻女孩，就像'我拥有这一切，现在没人能管我了'。

Typical as like you would do in New York City as a young girl that's just like, I I have all of this, and no one's gonna tell me now.

我所有的朋友都比我大，而且我从来没被查过身份证。所以这也算是名人效应的一部分，你知道吗，突然间，所有那些门都为你敞开了，这没什么。

And all my friends were older, and I never once got ID'd. So it was that's also par with celebrity, you know, suddenly, all those kinds all those kinds of doors are just open to you, and it's fine.

你有和剧组人员一起出去玩过吗？还是说你有自己的圈子？

Did you go out with the cast at all or no? You had a separate

我不常和他们一起外出，但我会去他们的公寓之类的地方玩。比如当时蔡斯和埃德是室友，

I didn't go out with them too much, but I would hang out at their apartments and stuff. Like Chase and Ed lived together at the time, and

当我采访蔡斯时，他跟我讲起那些天台派对

When I had Chase on and he told me about the rooftop parties

天台派对啊。

The rooftop parties.

明白了。所以你经常去天台。

Okay. So you frequented the roof.

噢，没错。我们住的地方就隔两个街区。

Oh, yeah. We live like two blocks from each other.

哦，你那时过得挺快活的。

Oh, you were having time with your life.

是啊。所以我经常去他们的公寓，那里完全是男生俱乐部，很适合我。我一直很适应男生俱乐部的氛围

Oh, yeah. So I would spend a lot of time at their apartment and it was very boys club, which was very fitting to me. I've always fit in with boys clubs I so that was

记得他出现时那副样子，他就像，哦，我记得有次我们开派对，林赛·罗韩突然来了，我们就互相使眼色：保持淡定。保持淡定。这很酷。这很酷。这很酷。

remember he came on what was he was like, oh, I remember one time we had the party and like Lindsay Lohan showed up and we're like act cool. Act cool. This is cool. This is cool. This is cool.

好吧，所以你当时在场。哦，没错。虽然你还年轻，但这正是那种有趣的经历——你正在以相当快节奏的方式长大成人。

Okay. So you were there. Oh, yeah. So this is that's like the although still you're young, but that's kind of the fun side of like, okay, you're getting to become an adult. You're doing it in a pretty fast paced way.

但当我采访蔡斯和佩恩时，你之前在这次访谈中隐约提到的正是这个——突如其来的巨大名声。是的。还有这部剧的爆红程度完全超出所有人预料。完全没想到。跟我详细说说吧。

But when I did interview Chase and Penn, and this is kind of what you had lightly alluded to and lightly talked about earlier in this interview is the sudden and intense fame. Yes. And the explosion of the show that no one could have anticipated. No could have. Just talk to me about it.

比如，从最开始的时候，它是怎么立即影响到你的？

Like, from like when it first starts, like, how does it impact you off the bat?

嗯，最初的冲击就是狗仔队，这是我从未应对过的。在纽约根本无处可逃，至少那时候是这样。我现在还住在纽约，现在已经懂得其中的规则了。知道该去哪里，不该去哪里。

Well, I mean, the first the first impact is the paparazzi, and that's something that I hadn't dealt with before. And in New York, there's no escaping it, at least at that time. Now, still live in New York, and now I know now there's like kind of rules to it. Know where go. Know to go, you know where not to go.

你知道，如果你在苏豪区，就要做好被拍照的准备，这很公平。但他们当时会蹲守在我家，去我妹妹的学校，无处不在。那种被监视和跟踪的感觉...很吓人，我想说，这让人非常不安。

And you know, if you're in Soho, be prepared to be photographed, it's fair game. Yes. But they were coming to my house, they were going to my sister's school, they were everywhere, and that kind of that feeling of kind of being watched and stalked is just it's intimidating is, I guess, the it's it's unnerving.

而且当时也没人能给出正确应对方案，除了硬扛。所有剧组成员都经历着这些，但你们当时那么年轻——既要学着成长面对，话说你父母后来搬到纽约了吗？

And there's also like no one that has the right answer of what to do other than like, just deal with it. Just deal with it. And all of your castmates were going through it, but again, you were at such a young age that I can only imagine you're like, trying to grow up and handle it, but also like, did your parents move to the city?

我妈妈、我和我妹妹一起做的。好吧。而我爸爸当时还在马里兰州工作。

My mom and me and my sister did. Okay. And my dad was still working in Maryland.

好的。你能回忆起某个时刻吗？比如当你觉得'不行，这真的太过分了'的时候？

Okay. Was there ever a time that you can like recall a memory of like, when you were like, no, no, no, this is like really getting too much?

我觉得实际上我处理得很好。我脸皮挺厚的。说到底，我过着非常奇特的生活，已经学会让事情随风而去。但真正让我觉得难以承受的与其说是当面遇到的狗仔队，不如说是事后那些照片引发的风波——尤其是我组建乐队后，负面报道开始铺天盖地，全世界都在憎恨我所做的一切。举个例子：

I think the reality is I handled it really well. I think I'm pretty thick skinned. At the end of the day, I've I've lived a very strange life and I've learned to kind of let things roll off my back. But there was it was less the paparazzi in person that went this as too much and more what would come out afterwards from the photos and that that would turn and that really started once I started the band, like the negative press where there was this kind of hatred of what I was doing from the world and people being like, here's okay. Here's an example.

我16岁在舞台上演出，穿着短裙，虽然穿着内裤，但有摄影师蹲下来从裙底偷拍。我的卫生棉条线滑出来了，佩雷斯·希尔顿把这张照片放在网站首页，甚至能看到我的私密部位。

I'm on stage, I'm 16, I'm playing a show, I'm wearing a little dress, I have underwear on, but a photographer goes and shoots up my skirt. He kneels down, shoots up my dress and my tampon string had slipped out. And so my tampon string was sticking out of my underwear. Perez Hilton puts that on the homepage of Perez Hilton. You can see like the side of my pussy and everything.

那张照片至今还在网上，有兴趣可以搜来看。但问题是——我当时未成年，这种侵犯行为...他的标题我不记得具体内容，但大意是'看泰勒多放荡'之类的羞辱性语言。这种概念太侵犯隐私了，虽然我现在能笑着面对。

Like, it's like a very it's still on the internet. Have fun looking it up. But it's a, I'm underage and the the violation that and it's and his headline I don't remember what it said, but the headline was very negative of like slut. Like, look what like, look how trashy Taylor is kind of thing. And that kind of concept, like, it's so invasive and I laugh about it now.

我大概一周后就释怀了，因为无能为力。但这就是我们讨论的那种媒体报道——有次我在出租车里，狗仔直接跳上车，闪光灯对着我狂拍。我用手遮脸，当时的朋友兼助理也帮我遮挡，结果小报头条就写'泰勒·摩森夜店烂醉离场'，因为他们专挑我最狼狈的瞬间来编造负面新闻。现在回想或许该请公关顾问，但当时不懂这些。

And I laughed about it probably a week later because there's nothing you can do about it. But that's the kind of press that we're talking about where people were very or I was in a taxi cab and paparazzi jumped in the cab with me and it's blinding lights. And I go like this to cover my face and my assistant and friend at the time covers my face and it's on the homepage of whatever tabloid site going Taylor Momsen fucked up leaving club because my eyes are kind of rolling back from the They pick the one shot that looks bad and try to spin some kind of negative story around it. So I was getting a lot of negative press. Looking back, I probably should have hired a publicist, but I didn't know better.

公关顾问？心理医生？保镖？还是他妈的救世主？不过确实没有标准答案。你说一周后就能笑对这种事，但面对这种隐私侵犯和赤裸裸的剥削，你曾崩溃过吗？

A publicist or a therapist or a bodyguard or Jesus fucking cricket. No right answer though. Dude, I okay. You saying though that you're like, I would probably laugh about it a week later, did you ever have breakdowns over this kind of invasion of privacy and absolute like exploitation?

大概是在内心吧。我从未向他们展示过。而正是这样，创作歌曲才发挥了作用。就像第一张专辑的转折点就在这里。我的意思是，我并不认为这一切都是负面的。

Probably internally. I never showed them. And again, that's that's where songwriting came into play. Like, that's where the first album everything turns around here. Like, I don't because I don't it's not all negative.

更重要的是，我学会了从生活的方方面面——无论大小——汲取艰难经历，并将其转化为音乐。这就是我应对生活的方式。音乐就是我的治疗方式，而找到音乐上合适的合作伙伴对我来说至关重要。当我找到后，它改变了我的生活。突然间，我有了乐队和制作人Kato的支持系统，他们纯粹支持我和我的愿景，没有任何其他动机或外界干扰，这种支持是巨大的。

It's it's more that I I learned to take the hard things in my life from any aspect of it, you know, big or small and turn it into music. And that's how I've coped with life. Like music is my therapy and it was finding the right finding the right partners musically for me was everything. And so when I did, it changed my life. And I suddenly then had a support system in my band and in Kato, our producer, who supported me for me and what I wanted to do and my vision and they had no ulterior motive or like there was nothing from the outside, it was just pure support of like you do what you wanna do and that was huge.

我无法想象你说的那个马里兰州的小女孩，她最爱做的就是创作音乐，觉得自己在这方面很有天赋，正在寻找自己的声音，然后突然被推入聚光灯下，通过一个你其实并不热衷或兴奋的职业？不，我...

I can't imagine like what you're saying of like that young girl in Maryland loving more than anything making music and being like, I'm really good at this. And I'm, like, finding I'm finding my voice and all of that. Then kind of getting thrust into this spotlight, like you said, through a career that you actually weren't really that passionate about or excited about? No. And I

事情是这样的，小时候我喜欢它，但也不完全了解。我从两岁就开始做这件事，所以它只是我一直做的事情。在这件事上没有选择权，也不是被迫的，我没有发脾气说不想做，父母也没有强迫我，但我也不是自己做决定，没有看透它。

was coming to that's the thing, like, when I was little, I liked it, like I didn't but I didn't know better. That was just, I started at two, so it was something I just always did. So there was no choice in the matter. It wasn't forced upon me, I wasn't like, you know, throwing tantrums, going, I don't wanna do this, and my parents going, you have to, it wasn't that, but I wasn't making my own decisions. I wasn't seeing past it.

当我12、13、14岁出演《绯闻女孩》时，一个你从未要求过的全新世界——名声——突然降临。名声是你必须甩到肩后的东西，是随之而来的需要应对的事，但当你没有准备好时——我想没人真正准备好——当你只是去工作、做你一直在做的事情时，突然多了这个需要学习应对的全新层面。

And when I hit 12, 13, 14 with Gossip Girl and this whole other world is thrown on you that you didn't ask for, like fame. Fame is this thing that you gotta kick over your shoulder and it's something you deal with that comes with it, but when you're not prepared for it, which I don't think anyone ever is. No. But when it's something that I'm just going to work and doing what I've always done, and now suddenly there's this whole other aspect to it that you have to learn to navigate.

再次强调，这个行业中女性和男性的区别在于

Again, and the difference between like being a woman and a man in this industry is

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

天差地别，因为

Like astronomically different because

它

It

确实如此。你刚才描述的照片出现在某人网站首页，简直应该被列为违法行为，他们这样侵犯你的身体，特别是，甚至

really is. The photo that you just described being on the front page of someone's website that is like, so that like is should literally be illegal of how they're violating your body, especially, not even

特别是还有儿童色情内容。对吧。所以我不明白为什么这种情况还能

especially Also child porn. Right. So I don't know how that's still like

你是未成年人。不管是不是未成年。是的。完全侵犯。我查了一下，发现很多小报也经常把你称为这个狂野女孩或派对女孩。

You're underage. Underage or not. Yeah. Complete violation. I was looking up and I just started to see like a lot of the tabloids also that they were referring to sometimes as this wild child or this party girl.

哦，你这是在透露一些幕后情况，那根本就是你在我该死的出租车里侵犯我的照片。

Oh, You're giving a little bit of this behind the scenes of like, that's literally just like a picture that you're in my fucking cab violating me.

你在我出租车里。首先，我从来不是什么狂野女孩。我一直都在工作。比如拍《绯闻女孩》时，我因为14岁就组建了乐队，所以边拍戏边录第一张专辑。我经常凌晨四点去《绯闻女孩》片场，拍到收工大概六点，然后直接去录音室工作到凌晨两点，回来睡一小时左右又继续这样连轴转。

You're in my cab. First of all, I was never really a wild child. I had I was working all the time. Like, I would go to set on Gossip Girl because I started making the first record while I was still on the show because I formed the band at 14. So I would go to work at four in the morning on Gossip Girl, work till six at whatever time we wrapped, go straight to the studio and work in the studio from whatever that time was till 2AM, come back, sleep for maybe an hour and then do it all again.

所以我一直在工作。那种狂野不羁的形象，其实只是妆容和有点夸张的时尚选择，但那就是真实的我。我觉得其中有些是刻意打造的，但那就是我的形象。现在回想起来，我觉得有点做作，当时说话的方式和举止现在看起来都让人尴尬。

So I was working all the time. So this whole like wild child persona, it was just the makeup and my fashion choices, which were a bit outrageous, but very me. Like I was just being authentic. And so I think some of that was curated and also I was It's my image. My image was a little out there and I was very I mean, now I call it pretentious, I look back on it and I go, it's like cringey how pretentious some of the things I would say was and how I'd speak and carry myself.

但那时的我就是那样。我觉得那种做作感特别明显是因为我在防御。因为每次有人问我问题，我都觉得必须为自己辩护，而不是诚实地回答。

But that's who I was at the time and I think that some of that pretension came across extra because I was being defensive. Because I was I felt like I constantly had to defend who I was as a person every time someone asked me a question, instead of just answering it kind of honestly, you know.

是的。我想你当时那么年轻，内心其实是在试图保护自己，所以我能理解那种抗争的状态。

Yes. I I think there was like, again, you're so young, there's like a level of like, internally, you were trying to protect yourself, and so like, I get I was fighting.

没错。我当时更像是在抗争，强调'这就是真实的我，你们都误解了'。现在成年后，你只需要做自己，放松地活着。

Yeah. I was more fighting going, this is me, you're getting it wrong. So I felt like I really had to fight to explain who I was. When now as an adult, you just be who you are and relax into it

而且是的。但我也在想，我现在采访过不少参与过现象级系列作品的演员，那种粉丝狂热程度...那种强度根本无法用语言描述。有些剧集就是能风靡全球，我们看的这些浪漫剧都是精心打造的，有导演编剧团队，确实是制作精良的好剧。

and Yes. But I also think I was thinking about this is like, I've now interviewed a good amount of people who have been a part of a franchise that was all consuming, and the fandom level is just like, you will That's intense. You'll never be able to describe Right? Like, and there and it's once in sometimes generations, like there's these very specific shows that just take the world by storm. And I think the fandom, we are watching these romanticized shows that are very curated, and there's directors, and there's writers rooms, and these are really good fucking shows.

嗯。但我们会模糊界限，Jenny Humphrey不是Taylor Momsen，Taylor Momsen也不是Jenny Humphrey，但人们根本不在乎，他们就想让你成为...对，成为Jenny Humphrey。而你会说'各位...'

Mhmm. But then we are blurring the lines between Jenny Humphrey is not Taylor Momsen, and Taylor Momsen is not Jenny Humphrey, but people don't give a fuck, and so they want you to be Yes. Jenny Humphrey. And you're like, guys.

是的。

Yes.

我就是那个'是的'。我来自圣路易斯。是的，我不是布鲁克林人。

I'm literally Yes. I am from St. Louis. Yes. I'm not from Brooklyn.

是的。你能跟我聊聊吗，比如，在将自己与珍妮·汉弗莱和泰勒区分开来的过程中遇到的困难，以及你他妈是怎么在心理上做到的？

Yes. And so can you talk to me a little bit about, like, having this hard time between separating yourself from Jenny Humphrey and Taylor, and like, how the fuck did you mentally do that?

嗯，我退出了。是的。就是这样。哦，对，我们快说到重点了。是的。

Well, I quit. Yeah. That's Oh, yeah. We're getting there. Yeah.

就像在说，贱人，我走了。

Like, bitch, I left.

我离开了。我做不到。那几年真的很挣扎，但我的做法是把它完全当作一份职业工作。我按时到场，完成工作，然后就去录音室。

I left. I can't do this. It was a struggle there for years, but what I did was I treated it very much like a job, a professional. I showed up, I did my job, and then I went to the studio.

你怨恨她吗？就是作为那个角色？

Did you resent her Like as the character?

我怨恨的是...我不怨恨...我不知道该怎么解释。当我离开那部剧，不再参演，只是跟着乐队巡演，专心做音乐，放弃了其他一切的时候——每个问题、每次采访还是围绕着《绯闻女孩》、珍妮·汉弗莱、你会不会重返演艺圈之类的，问题清单没完没了。第一年你能理解，第二年你会觉得好笑。但随着时间推移，我意识到：我这辈子都摆脱不了这个角色了——这种觉悟真的很诡异。

I resented the I didn't resent I don't know how to explain this. When I left the show, and I was no longer on it, and I was just touring with the band, and just putting out music, and I quit everything else and that's all I was doing. And every question and every interview was still about Gossip Girl and Jenny Humphrey and will you ever go back to acting and blah blah blah and the list of questions on and on and on. The first year you get it, the second year you kind of laugh at it. But like, as it kept going, I was going, oh, I'm never gonna outlive this character and that's a weird thing to come to grips with.

所以你就那样，我直接忽略了。你

So you just kind of, I ignored it. You

过你自己的生活。从我们聊的内容来看，你当时在去录音室，拍完《绯闻女孩》就去录歌，但就像你说的，人们根本不想把你当音乐人看待，因为他们觉得

live your life. And I feel like from what we're talking about is like, you're going to the studio, you're recording after Gossip Girl, but then like you said, people really didn't want to hear about you as a musician, because they're like

好吧，他们没当真，不过说句公道话，换我也不会当真。

Well, they didn't take it seriously, which in their defense, I wouldn't have either.

好的。说到如果

Okay. Talking If about

如果当时有人给我推荐一个14岁主唱的摇滚乐队，主唱还是个演肥皂剧的小妞，我肯定会翻个白眼说：行吧，压根不在乎你现在想给我看什么。

I was if you brought to me a a 14 year old fronted rock band with a chick who was on a soap opera, I would roll my eyes at it and go, yeah, don't give two fucks about whatever you're trying to show me right now.

有道理。

Fair.

所以他们当然会那样，没错。因为我选了最艰难的路。我试图在一个根本不可能获得认可的世界里赢得尊重，以我当时的出身背景来说——第一，玩摇滚难如登天；第二，女性玩摇滚更是难上加难。

So of course they did, like Yes. Because I picked the hardest path. I I didn't I I trying to gain credibility in a world that is impossible to gain credibility coming from the circumstances that I came from. A, rock and roll, hard as hell. B, a woman in rock and roll, hard as hell.

然后第三点，一个青少年肥皂剧明星想要被认真对待。所以我当时各方面都不被看好。但很多说法都是假的，说她是个装腔作势的人，说某某替她写歌之类的，全都是无稽之谈。

And then three, teenage soap star You're like wants to be taken serious. So it was just I had everything stacked against me Right. In that way. But and so there's a lot of this is fake and she's a poser and this is who so and so writes her songs and blah blah blah. None of which was true.

所有歌都是我自己写的。唱片也是我参与制作的。除了我和乐队，没有其他人参与我们的创作。这非常个人化，我也非常认真对待。我很快意识到，克服那种仇恨的唯一方法就是屏蔽它，继续做自己。

I write everything myself. I coproduce the records. Like, is there is no there's no one but me and the band involved in what we do. And it's it's it's incredibly personal and it's and I take it incredibly seriously. And I realized very quickly that the only way to overcome that kind of hate or whatever is to a, shut it out, and just do it.

坚持下去。对，就是继续做。对，永不言弃。

Keep going. Yeah. Or you just do it. Yeah. You keep going.

我们彻底颠覆了这个世界。我不断写歌。我们持续发行唱片，必须用最传统的方式坚持到底。

You tore we tore the world relentlessly. I kept writing songs. We kept putting out records, you and you have to do it the old school way.

就像在说，我哪儿也不去。始终保持高水准，看吧，我们又来了，又一首

You're like, I'm not I'm not going anywhere. Consistency just keeps high, here we go again, another

歌。因为我告诉你，没必要一直为自己辩解。解释自己毫无意义。所以我厌倦了就不再解释，而当我停止过度防备时，事情反而开始变得顺利，

song because that I telling you can't keep explaining yourself. There's no point in explaining yourself. So I got tired of that and gave up on it, and then that's when things actually started to get easier is when I stopped being so defensive and

顺其自然就好。这他妈不是很美妙吗？听起来简单，但做起来真他妈难。是啊。

just was. Well, isn't that fucking beautiful? Right. It sounds it sounds so straightforward, but it's so fucking hard. Oh, yeah.

再次强调，因为我们正在讨论的是——提醒大家注意——14、15、16岁的年纪。那时候大多数人还在阿拉巴马州办他妈的甜蜜十六岁派对，缠着妈妈问‘能给我买件加厚胸罩吗？’。而你却要在这个行业里作为年轻女性艰难转型，大多数时候我们只能被接受扮演单一角色，简直就像在说‘祝你好运’。好吧，我们现在就要说到重点了。

And again, because we're talking like just reminding everyone again, 14, 15, 16 years old. Like, most people are having like their fucking sweet sixteens in Alabama and being like, mom, can I get a padded bra? And you're trying to pivot as a young woman in an industry where most of the time we are only accepted as one thing, and it's like, good luck. Okay. We're get now we're gonna get there.

因为现在我想用你说过的话来收尾——‘去他妈的，老娘不干了’。没错。

Because now I wanna finish off with you said, bitch, I fucking quit. Yeah.

就像‘我不干了’。

Like I quit.

我们来聊聊这个。你是什么时候——具体多早——就真正意识到‘老子他妈的要离开这鬼地方’的？

Let's talk about it. How did you when how early on did you actually know, I wanna get the fuck out of here?

确切地说是我什么时候真正离开的？是第三季吗？我从来没看过这节目，所以我的时间线总是

It's definitely when did I actually leave? Was it season three? I never watched the show, so my timeline's always

乱糟糟的。好吧。

messed Okay.

所以你离开了——我第四季就不在了。第四季。

So you leave I'm gone for season four. Season four.

第四季。

Season four.

第一季就像一阵旋风。大概到第二季左右吧。因为每当我组建乐队时，比如当我遇到本和卡托，一切都改变了。

Season one's a whirlwind. It's probably around season two. Okay. Because whenever I started the band, like when I met I met Ben and Cato, and it changed everything.

一切。不过你有跟他们聊过上这个节目的事吗？就像说，伙计们，我得离开这儿了？哦，对。你会说，格斯。哦，对。

Everything. Did you talk to them though about being on this show, being like, guys, I gotta get out of here? Oh, yeah. You're like, Gus. Oh, yeah.

我被困住了。快救我出去。

I'm in jail. Get me out.

我知道我必须离开，但同时要放弃一个如此成功的事业并不容易。是的。这对我来说是个简单的决定。不是不容易。我不该说不是不容易。

I knew I had to leave, but at the same time, leaving a career that is so prosperous and was not easy. Yeah. It was an easy decision for me. Not not sorry. I shouldn't say not easy.

不容易是指，比如，真正解除合同并不容易。

Not easy not easy in the way of, like, to actually get out of a contract was not easy.

好的。跟我说说吧。

Okay. Talk to me.

这很难。一开始我处于被CW电视台、华纳兄弟等公司合约锁定的状态，我不断抗争想要解约。这是一场漫长的斗争，我一直在争辩说'让我离开，我受不了了，这让我痛苦不堪'。

What This was hard. So it started with a, I don't wanna do this anymore, but you're in a lock and key contract with CW, Warren Brothers, all of that stuff. And it came down to it was a very long battle of me arguing everyone and going, get me out of this. I can't do this anymore. This is killing me.

就像，我人生还有其他想做的事，与这些毫无关系，我不能再被困在这里了。然后你会被指责忘恩负义，所有难听的话都会砸过来——你怎么敢背弃让你如此成功的事业？这很艰难。

Like, I I have something else I wanna do with my life, and it has nothing to do with this, and I I can't be stuck here anymore. And, you know, you're called ungrateful and you're called like all, you know, all the things that come along with how dare you turn your back on something that's been so successful for you was hard. It can How

当人们这么说的时候，你是什么感受？

do you feel about that though when people say that?

哦，我直接怼回去。你根本不懂我的处境，凭什么评判？所以我当时非常戒备。但最终他们不肯解约，华纳兄弟负责人直接说'去他妈的泰勒·摩森，门都没有'。

Oh, I just won't fuck you. You don't know what you're talking like, you're not in my shoes, so how dare you judge this? That's so I was very very defensive. But it came down to they wouldn't let me out of the contract. The head of Warner Brothers said, fuck Taylor Momsen, no fucking way.

我去找了编剧斯蒂芬妮·萨维奇和乔什·施瓦茨——我真心敬爱他们——说明情况。经过多次商讨后，他们说'虽然无法帮你解约（这不归我们管），但可以把你写出剧集。我们理解你的追求，既然合约限制你不能接其他影视工作，这样你就能去巡演玩乐队了'。我说这简直完美。

I go to the writers, and Stephanie Savage and Josh Schwartz, who I love, like genuinely love, and explain the situation. There was lots of talks about it, but they essentially went, well, we can't let you out of the contract because that's not our job, but we can write you out of the show. We understand what you want, what you're trying to do here. You're not gonna be able to act because you're under contract, so you can't go take another job and join some other TV show or some other movie. And I'm like, that's perfectly fine.

真的感谢他们为我这么做，因为这完全不是他们的义务。他们把我写出剧集，让我得以去巡演组建乐队。

Love. I'm trying to get out like, it's not what I wanna do anyway. It's good. So I really have to credit them for doing that for me, because they did not have to, and they they wrote me out of the show so I could go on tour and be in a band.

你是怎么和剧组同事道别的？和谁比较亲近可以倾诉，还是简单告别就走？

How did you share this with castmates? Were you close with anyone enough to share it, or just kinda say peace out?

其实不算。我有点像是突然消失了。就是下一周的剧本里直接没有我了。他们都在问泰勒去哪了？我是说，大家都知道我在做音乐，都知道我有个乐队，我会给他们演奏些作品。我想我当时在拍节目的同时也在筹备第一张专辑，所以我会带着新歌和音乐去片场，就是这类事情。

Not really. I kinda just Irish dipped. I just I wasn't in the script the next week. They're like, where's Taylor? I mean, all knew I was making music, they all knew I had a band, like I would play them stuff, I guess I was working on the first record while I was on the show, so I would come in and play songs and play music and you know, that kind of stuff.

但我觉得当时没人意识到我是认真的。

But I don't think anyone knew how serious I was at that stage.

你还记得在片场的最后一天吗？是不是在数着时间等收工？

Do you remember your last day on set? Were you like counting down the hours?

现在你提起这事，我确实记得很清楚。我最后一场戏是在...我想可能是观众最后一次见到珍妮的场景。所以那场戏是我坐在火车上要去和妈妈生活，或者随便编剧写的什么结局。我靠在车窗上，那正好就是杀青戏，非常应景。后来我又回来拍了大结局，纯粹是作为电视迷和这部剧的粉丝，想让全体演员再次聚首，给故事画上圆满句号。

I remember well, the last I actually do, now that you bring it up. My last scene was in the I think it might be the last I never again, I've never watched the show, but I think it might be the last scene you see Jenny in. And so I think it's me like on the train going to live with my mom or whatever the write out story was, and I'm like leaning on the window, and I think that was the that was the wrap scene, which is very fitting. And then I came back for the very finale because just as as a fan of television and a fan of the shows I love, like, when you have the full cast together again for like, you wanna full circle that

圆满收尾。你刚才提到——我觉得这个观点很棒——你放弃了一份相当稳定的工作去组建乐队，开创全新的事业。我们都知道在音乐行业取得成功并不容易。你的家人支持这个决定吗？

and round it out. So you mentioned, which I do think is a great point, that like, you walked away from a pretty stable job to create this, you know, full career out of this band. That making it in the music industry is not easy, as we've kind of talked about. Was your family supportive of this decision?

嗯。说实话，当时我固执得要命，一门心思要追求自己想要的生活，我觉得没人能阻止我。准确说不是'觉得'，是确实没人能阻止，确实有人尝试过。所以他们只能接受我的选择，要么支持我，要么退出我的生活。

Yeah. I mean, I don't think they At this point, I was so strong headed and bulldozing my way into what I wanted in my life that I don't think anyone could have stopped me. How about us not think, no one could have stopped me, and yes, some people tried. So I think there was a a level of they had to accept that this is what I was doing, and either get on board or get out.

从演员到音乐人的这种身份转变，你提到初期很多人并不当真。但这对你艺术创作的心态有什么影响？因为整个采访中你一直在强调自己对音乐创作是发自内心热爱的。你说最初很多时候，人们甚至根本不愿意听你的音乐。

The dichotomy of this actress to then this musician, and you talked about it a little bit of like, people not taking it seriously in the very beginning. How did that affect though just how you felt about your art? Because what you've been talking about this whole interview is like how to the core Mhmm. Passionate you are about making music. And a lot of it, you say in the beginning was just like, sometimes people weren't even hearing my music.

从很小的时候起，我就一直在写作。是的。最初这只是你个人的一种宣泄方式。但现在你试图以此为职业时，人们还是会说'该死的珍妮·汉弗瑞想组他妈的乐队'之类的话。这他妈到底是怎么...

This has been for some from a very young age I've been writing. Yeah. So at the beginning of your life, it's been really just for you as this outlet. But then as you're now trying to make a career out of it, and people are still like, oh, fucking Jenny Humphries trying to start a fucking band. Like, how the fuck did you

就是这样。完全就是亚历克斯的原话。然后他先把我搞崩溃了。

It was just like that too. That's exact that's the like, end quoted by Alex. Then he fucked me up first.

不。这他妈多烦人啊，你是怎么...我知道你说过你选择了埋头苦干，但有没有某些时刻你会觉得'我这辈子都摆脱不了这个标签了'？

No. How fucking annoying and how did you I know you said you kind of put your head down, but like, were there moments where you were like, I'm never going to shake this?

哦，当然。这种感受确实存在过。

Oh, yeah. There was definitely feelings of that.

你有没有刻意在某些方面特别下功夫，试图真正摆脱'珍妮光环'的影响？

Did you lean in any capacity, like, wise, heavily into certain aspects to try to really detract from the Jenny aura?

可能有吧。

Probably.

好吧。

Okay.

可能没那么多算计。关于我你必须知道的是，我真的很热爱喜剧。我觉得所有事情都很有趣。这就是我的人生态度——对一切都能笑出来。

Probably not so calculated. Thing you have to know about me, I really love comedy. And I think everything's funny. And that's kinda how I get through life. I laugh at everything.

你得学会用轻松的态度面对，否则

You gotta be able to make light of it or

我们要下去了吗？

We're going down?

它会吞噬你。所以我特别喜欢惊吓别人，因为我觉得这很有趣。我十五六岁时就想，我要在台上穿脱衣舞鞋，在胸前贴X然后露出来，穿《好色客》杂志风格的服装，打扮得像个夸张的色情版洛丽塔，因为这样能吓到人，特别好笑。

It'll eat you. So anything that I could like, I really enjoyed shocking people because I thought it was funny. So I was 16, 15, 16, and I was like, oh, I'm gonna wear stripper shoes on stage. I'm gonna put x's on my tits and flash them. I'm gonna wear outfits from Hustler and be as outrageously like pornographic Lolita over the top because it freaks people out and it's super funny.

我超爱这样。这成了我的一部分，但这也是真实的我。我很享受这些。这不是精心算计的'如果我这样做就会得到那种反应'。完全不是。

Loved it. And so that became a part, but that's also who I was. Like, I enjoyed that. It wasn't it wasn't calculated of like, if I do this, I'll get this reaction. Totally.

这就是我日常的穿着风格。但当我看到人们的反应后，我就想，哦，你不喜欢我的烟熏妆？那我就化得更浓些。超高跟鞋让你不舒服？那就让鞋跟高到挡住视线，还要往鞋里塞钱。

That's how I dressed in my everyday life. But once I started to see the reaction, I went, well, let's just Oh, you don't like my dark eye makeup? Let's make it a little darker. Oh, really tall heels are bothering you? Let's make them lose sight and put money in them.

就像，你懂的，有点...所以我觉得那绝对是种乐趣。但我确实乐在其中。

Like, you know, is that kinda So I think that that was definitely a fun But I had fun with it.

我觉得，有些人确实不会在世界舞台上处理这种事，但这很能引起共鸣。玩弄自己的形象，作为女性，通过服装、妆容等各种方式来自我表达。我很喜欢你这样说，是的。我当然明白它的作用，但我依然乐在其中。

I feel like, again, some people don't deal with it on the world stage, but that is relatable. And like, playing with your image, and as women, like outfits, and makeup, and everything to really like self express. And I love that you're saying, like, yes. I of course understood what it was doing, but I was still enjoying myself.

哦，

Oh,

没错。因为其中一半是，人们可以对此发表社会评论，但你知道吗？你终于在做自己真正热爱的事了。哦，这才是最重要的。而我

yeah. Because half of it is like, people can have social commentary on this, but guess what? You're now finally doing what you truly fucking love. And Oh, that's all that matters. And I

一直都是自己的造型师，自己搞定一切。所以我会去购物，把这些东西搭配起来，有些回头看看确实有点可疑。但总的来说，那是我当时最真实的自我展现。那么'The Pretty Reckless'这个名字背后有什么故事？关于'The Pretty Reckless'的由来。

was always my own stylist, and my own everything. So like, I went shopping, and I put those things together, and some of them are a little questionable when you look back. But like, in general, that's that I was being the most authentic version of myself at that time. So what is the story behind the name, The Pretty Reckless? Story behind The Pretty Reckless.

好的。我们组建了乐队后需要起个名字，结果发现乐队名字是世界上最他妈难搞的事。特别是在互联网时代，每个好名字都被注册或商标了。

Okay. So we formed the band. We now need a band name, which turns out band name is the hardest thing in the fucking world Yeah. To come up with, especially in the internet age. Every band name's taken or trademarked.

所以你想出的每个名字都用不了。卡托提出了'The Reckless'，我立刻爱上了这个主意。因为我想用定冠词'the'——就像披头士那样。而且我想要一个单词的短名，不要那种长句子式的乐队名。所以他说就叫'The Reckless'。

So anything you think of, can't use that, can't use that, can't use that. Cato came up with The Reckless. And I went I love it because I knew I wanted it to be a the because of the Beatles. And I wanted it to be like one word, not one of those long sentence band names, like something simple and whatever. So he went, The Reckless.

完美，就这个名字。结果去商标注册时出问题了，70年代有支乐队也叫'The Reckless'，用不了。我的律师就说：加个词就行，随便加个词人们自然会缩写。就像齐柏林飞艇(Led Zeppelin)大家都叫它Zeppelin。

Perfect, that's the name. We go to trade market, there's an issue, there's some band from the seventies called The Reckless, we can't get it. And my lawyer goes, well, just add a word. Like, add any word and people will abbreviate it. You know, like Led Zeppelin, people call it Zeppelin.

她说，一旦人们开始缩写，你就拥有了商标权，它会变成一个...管它叫什么蓝杆子对吧。这样你也能注册商标了。于是我们就想，那'相当鲁莽'怎么样？总比'适度鲁莽'强吧？

And she goes, and once people abbreviate it, you'll have, you know, the trademark, it'll become an or whatever the blue pole Right. So then now you can trademark that also. And so we went, okay, what's the pretty reckless? It's better than moderately reckless? Like

是的。

Yes.

听起来不错。当时没多想，也没料到所有人——或者说没预见到所有人都会把它缩写为TBR，而不是'the reckless'。就这样，'相当鲁莽'诞生了。不过我现在超爱这个名字。说到底，是音乐成就乐队名，而不是反过来。

Sounds good. Didn't really think of it much, and then didn't notice that everyone or didn't think ahead that everyone would abbreviate it to TBR, not the reckless. And hence, the pretty reckless was born. But it but I I love it now. Like, at the end of the day, the music makes the band name not the other way around.

确实如此。现在我完全就是'相当'...我就是'相当唱片'。挺好的。

It's It does. Now I'm I'm fully the pretty like, I am the pretty record. Are. So it's good.

最让我开心的事就是有人夸我说：'亚历克斯，你闻起来真香。' 还有比被人夸好闻更棒的事吗？没有。想知道我用的是什么香水吗？

There is nothing that makes me happier than when I get a compliment from someone and they say, Alex, you smell delicious. Okay? I mean, is there anything better than someone telling you you smell good? No. And you wanna know what I'm wearing?

你们早就知道我用的什么。圣罗兰美妆。听着，如果你在找一款新锐香水，圣罗兰经典的LIBRE系列正是你梦寐以求的回头率神器，让你自信爆棚。

You already know what I'm wearing. Yves Saint Laurent beauty. Okay. Let's go. If you are looking for a new statement fragrance, Yves Saint Laurent's iconic Lieb collection is everything you've been looking for to turn heads and feel your most confident.

香草调香水正当红，而圣罗兰的LIBRE VANILLE COUTURE是其中佼佼者。听好了宝贝们，这是LIBRE首款限量版香水。甜而不腻，大胆前卫——融合香草鱼子酱、朗姆利口酒、纯正薰衣草与橙花。这是LIBRE最诱人的版本。

The vanilla fragrances are all the rage, and Yves Saint Laurent's Lee Vanille Couture is the best one out there. Listen to me, daddy gang. It's Leeb's first ever limited edition fragrance. It's sweet yet bold with rich vanilla caviar, rum liqueur, absolute lavender, and orange blossom. The most delectable version of Lieb.

当然，原版的Lieb香水也从不失手。这款标志性香氛融合了薰衣草与橙花，是我日常最爱用的绝妙温暖花香调，你们听我说过无数次了。但亲爱的家人们，这就是你们的信号。懂了吗？

Of course, the original Lieb eau de parfum never misses either. Its iconic fragrance is infused with lavender and orange blossom. It's the most amazing warm floral for every day, which you've heard me talk about. But daddy gang, this is your sign. Okay?

Lieb香草高定版。砰。来了。你会想要闻起来棒极了，这就对了。现在就去丝芙兰选购吧。

Lieb Vanilla Couture. Boom. Here we go. You are gonna wanna be smelling amazing, and there you go. Shop now at Sephora.

你显然曾与你最爱的乐队之一一起巡演过

You went on tour obviously with one of your favorite bands

是啊。

Yeah.

Soundgarden乐队。能跟我聊聊你是如何获得这个机会的，以及这对当时职业生涯中的你意味着什么吗？

Soundgarden. And can you just talk to me about how you were offered that opportunity and like what it meant to you at that time in your career?

我有自己崇拜的音乐人标杆或者说分级体系。当我们最初组建The Pretty Reckless时，我的两大标杆毫无疑问是披头士和Soundgarden。你知道，他们是我的北极星。对Ben和Cato来说也是如此，这是最初的原因之一。我们出于对这两支乐队的热爱组建了The Pretty Reckless，当然还有AC/DC、平克·弗洛伊德、大门乐队等等，名单可以列很长。

I have pillars of musicians that I look up to and or tiers of musicians. And when we first formed The Pretty Reckless, my two pillars are the Beatles and Soundgarden, hands down. And, you know, they're my north stars. And they were for Ben and Cato also, and that was one of the first. So we formed the pretty reckless over the love of those two bands, and and ACDC and Pink Floyd and the Doors and, you know, the list goes on and on.

但平克...不对，是Soundgarden和披头士。所以接到电话时——首先Soundgarden已经解散多年了。当他们发行新专辑时重组了，我差点兴奋幸福到昏过去。而之后接到他们邀请我们做开场嘉宾的电话，简直超现实，太有成就感了，让人激动不已。

But Pink but Soundgarden and the Beatles. So to get the call first of all, Soundgarden's been broken up forever. And so when their new record came out, they got back together. I about died of excitement and happiness. And then to go forward and have get the call that they are asking us to open for them was surreal and so validating and so exciting.

我一生中想不出比那一刻更幸福的时刻。那是我经历过最酷的事情。我简直不敢相信，太不可思议了。

And I cannot picture a moment in my life where I was more happy than that moment. Like that was the coolest thing that ever happened to me. I was floored. I could not believe it. And was fantastic.

虽然这个故事显然会走向悲伤，但那是最棒的经历，一切都令人惊叹。他们太了不起了。见到他们、认识他们都很不可思议。人们总说不要见你的偶像，所以我当时有点紧张，担心他们会不会和我想象中不一样。

And this is obviously going somewhere sad, but it was the greatest experience and everything about it was phenomenal. Mean, they're incredible. Meeting them was incredible, getting to know them. And you always hear like, you know, don't meet your heroes and like so there was a I had a bit of nervousness around that of like, if they aren't this thing I've built up in my head? Oh, no.

他们完全就是我心目中的样子。他们善良、了不起，音乐才华无与伦比。他们的唱片对我的触动是其他乐队无法比拟的。我觉得在见到他们之前就仿佛已经认识他们了，我想很多乐迷对最喜欢的乐队都有这种感觉。

They're exactly what I built up in my head. They're kind, they're awesome, their musicality is off the charts. It's ridiculous. Like, their records speak to me on a level that no other band does. And it's like, I feel like like I feel like I knew them before I met them because I and I think a lot of people with their favorite bands feel that way.

就像家人一样熟悉。他们的音乐早已成为我生命的一部分。所以当这一切成真时，那种体验简直疯狂。更不用说他们真的超级真诚。从我们刚才聊的经历到现在获得这次巡演机会，摇滚圈对我的接纳，他们给我的认可，对乐队来说意义重大。

Like, they know they're it feels like a family member. It's something that I've been listening to forever as a part of you. And so to have that become a reality was just an insane, insane experience. Not to mention they were like, it's kind of as credible as it can possibly get. And so to come from everything we just talked about and now be offered this tour, the acceptance that I felt from the rock community and from and like them putting their stamp of approval on me and the band was just massive.

接到那个电话时，那种兴奋感层层叠叠。那是有史以来最棒的事情。我他妈的爱死他们了，Alex。我太爱他们了。

Like, they they came with so many layers of exciting weight to get that call. It was just the greatest thing ever. I've got a I fucking love them, Alex. I love them so fucking much.

就像你说的，艺术界的人都有自己仰望的标杆，无论是导演还是其他。那些标志性人物以各种方式启发影响着你，没有他们的影响，你就不会是现在这样的Pretty Reckless。所以你的热情完全可以理解，因为他们对你影响至深。当然，后来...

It's again, it's like I think anyone that is in the world of art, like, there there are, like you just said, the pillars which you look up to, whether it's your director and you look up to some of the most iconic directors that you have in your brain that inspire and influence you in so many ways, like, you wouldn't be the pretty reckless in the exact way you are, had you not had that influence from them. So, it's like Mhmm. The passion that you have is understandable, because it's had such Yeah. An impact on you. And then, obviously, the

是啊。然后...悲剧。最终导致了悲剧。

Yeah. And then it Tragic. It leads to it leads to tragedy. Can

你在跟我讲那次巡演中主唱去世的事吗？

you talk to me about the lead singer passes away during that tour?

是的。那是巡演最后一晚，我们在底特律完成了最后一场演出，大家互相道别，说下次再约，你知道的，就是‘路上见’那种客套话。我们都上了巡演大巴睡觉，结果第二天一大早我就被吵醒了——消息已经在营地里传开了，我当时睡得正死。首先，就像我们之前聊过的，我根本不是早起的人。所以我的大脑需要很长时间才能清醒过来。

Yeah. Well, it was the last night of tour, and we played the last show in Detroit, and we all said bye, do this again sometime, you know, see you on the road. We all got on our tour buses, went to bed, and I was woken up the next morning really early because the news had been passed around the camp, and I was dead asleep. And first of all, I'm not, as we've talked about, I'm not a morning person. So I think the, like my brain takes a while to wake up.

所以当我听到几个小时前还说过话、拥抱过的人已经不在了的消息时，一开始根本无法接受。我整个人都是懵的，不停追问‘你到底在说什么？’等慢慢反应过来后，就感觉胃里沉得像压了块石头，那种毁灭性的痛苦，真的是世界上最糟糕的感觉。我彻底崩溃了，直接瘫倒在地。

So hearing the news that someone I just spoke to and hugged and talked to a couple hours ago is no longer here, I couldn't process it at first. Like, I was confused. I was going, What are you saying to me right now? And that turned into sinking in, which turned into the biggest pit in my stomach of devastation and just the worst feeling in the world of like, mean, I fell the fuck apart. I like fell onto the ground.

那可以说是我黑暗时期的开端。这件事太令人震惊了，整个经历对我来说都是如此痛苦，以至于现在说起还会发抖。我尽量不去多想，但那种感觉真的太残酷了。残酷至极。

And that was kind of the start of my, what we can call my dark period. It was just, it was so shocking. And so, like everything about that experience for me was so traumatic that I still get shaky talking about it. Like, it's something I try not to think about too much, but that is brutal. It's brutal.

简直无法用语言形容，因为我们讨论的这件事，恰好夹在你人生最辉煌的时刻...

Beyond like words, because you're like, what we're talking about too is like some of the highest highs of your life.

嗯。

Mhmm.

...和人生最低谷的瞬间之间。

And then immediately wrapped into the lowest lows of your life.

大概两小时内接连发生。然后大约一年后，你另一个最好的朋友

Within like a two hour period. And then about a year later, one of your other best friends

是的。去世了。

Yeah. Passed away.

是的。那是凯托，我经常提起的凯托·冈德瓦拉，他制作了我们所有的唱片，他是我在这世上最好的朋友。我们形影不离，是那种每天都会聊天的挚友。他本质上就是'狂野少女'乐队的第五名成员，只是没跟我们一起巡演。他在一场摩托车事故中离开了我们，正如我之前说过的，那件事彻底击垮了我。

Yeah. That's Cato, who I've spoken about through Cato Gondwala, he produced all our records, he's my best friend in the world. You know, we're inseparable, like talk every day kind of friend. And he was essentially the fifth member of the Pretty Reckless, he just didn't tour with us. And we lost him in a motorcycle accident and it was, as I've said before, that was the nail in the coffin for me.

克里斯走后，我刚开始陷入消沉时，我们还在继续巡演。但很快我就意识到自己根本不适合出现在公众面前，我需要时间来处理这一切。我必须消失一段时间，去应对这份快把我吞噬的悲痛。而我面对人生困境的方式，就像我说过的，总是通过写作和音乐来宣泄。那时我才刚开始勉强接受克里斯的离去，状态非常糟糕。

Like, after Chris, I was in the start of a downward spiral and we continued to tour. I quickly came to a place that I like, a realization that I was not in a place to be public, like I needed some time with this. I had to disappear and go try to handle this grief that was fucking eating me. And is and the way that I've always dealt with hard things in life is to write about them, as I've said, and to turn it into music. And so I was finally starting to kind of come to grips with Chris, not well.

当时我确实状态很差，但我坚持着，想着必须摆脱这种困境。我们决定进录音棚做音乐，像以往面对困难时那样继续前进。刚预约好录音棚，我就接到凯托在摩托车事故中去世的电话，这彻底击溃了我。这两记重拳接踵而至，因为两次打击间隔时间很短。之后我就彻底崩溃了。

Like, I was definitely not doing well, but I was going, we gotta get out of this. Let's get in the studio, let's make some music, let's push forward and do what we've always done in hard times. And we booked the studio and as soon as that happened, I got the call that Kato had passed away in a motorcycle accident and it floored me. So it was kind of a, it was a giant one two punch because they were not that far apart from each other. And I just went off the rails.

至少可以说，我当时处理得很糟糕。我深陷药物滥用的泥潭，被挥之不去的抑郁阴云笼罩。之前就在挣扎的问题彻底爆发，我几乎放弃了——放弃了生活，当所有挚爱都离去时，活着还有什么意义？

Like I didn't handle that well to say the least. Like, I got very heavy into, you know, substance abuse and this cloud of depression that I couldn't shake. And so something that I was teetering with before really took on a life of its own where I essentially gave up. I gave up on life, and when everything I love is dead, what's the fucking point?

当你经历那段人生低谷时，你是独自一人吗？身边有谁支撑着你每天早晨继续起床？

When you were going through that period in your life, were you were you alone? Like, who did you have around you to keep you getting up every morning?

我是说，这支乐队就是我的家人，本、马克和杰米。但那段时期我把自己封闭得很好。他们会联系我，来看看我，我们一起玩音乐，做各种事。但很多时候我只是把手机扔一边，就像人间蒸发了一样。

I mean, it's the band. I mean, the band is my family, know, Ben, Mark, and Jamie. But I did a very good job of isolating myself at that time period. And, you know, they reach out, they check-in, they come over, we play, you know, whatever we did. But a lot of the time I just show off my phone, you know, like I was kind of unreachable.

这都是我精心设计的。我深思熟虑过，知道自己状态不好。一方面，如果你不想被人看见，就会感到羞耻。另一方面，我也知道自己已经有点放弃了。就像，必须做个了断。

And that was very calculated. That was very thought like, I knew I wasn't in a good place. And a, there's like shame that comes with that if you don't wanna be seen. And b, I also knew that I had kinda given up. Like, had to like, oop.

当时我必须做个清醒的选择：要么继续活下去，要么走向死亡。要么停止手头的一切重整生活，要么被这一切摧毁。幸运的是我选择了前进，但情况确实严重到这种程度。就像陷在漆黑的深渊里找不到出路，而更可怕的是我对此完全无所谓——我安于待在那个地方，渐渐消失也无所谓。

Like, I had to make a very conscious choice at a point where I was either going to live or I was gonna die. And I had to either stop everything I was doing and get my life together or this was going to kill me. And I luckily chose to move forward, but that was it was it was that serious, you know? Like, wasn't a I was in this hole of blackness that I didn't know how to get out of and I think the bigger thing was that I was perfectly fine with that. Like I was perfectly fine kind of staying in that place and fading away into nothing and that was fine with me.

所以，我花了很长时间才走出那个状态。

Like, and so it was It took a long time to get to the other side of that.

没错。兄弟，悲痛太他妈可怕了，因为有时候沉溺其中反而更轻松

Right. Dude, grief is like so fucking terrifying, because you sometimes it's just easier

轻松得多。

to sink into it. So much easier.

因为你得主动往外爬，还会产生内疚——他们再也无法体验生活了。你的思绪会非常清晰地走向黑暗地带。你是怎么开始挣脱出来的？当然你有音乐支撑，但具体来说

Because you're actually actively having to climb out, and then there's the guilt of like, but they don't get to experience life anymore, and so it's like, your head can go to really clearly, yes, dark fucking places. How did you begin to pull yourself out? And like, yes, you had music, but like

嗯，虽然听起来很老套，甚至当我大声说出来时，感觉像是编造的。但最困难的事情之一就是处理这一切。音乐曾是我的慰藉，它始终是我可以依靠的东西，听唱片或其他能让我感觉好起来的东西。

Well, it's it's It it is though. Like, it sounds cliche, even when I say it out loud, it sounds like made up. But the hard I mean, one of the hardest things though was was dealing with all of this. Like, music's been my solace. It's always been the thing I can turn to, listening to records or whatever that makes you feel better.

克里斯和卡托离开后，我失去了这种慰藉。所有我听过的音乐都让情况更糟。我无法再听声音花园乐队的歌，不能听披头士，因为那是我们和卡托一起听的。甚至不能听我们自己的音乐，因为那是和卡托一起创作的。

And after Chris and Cato, I didn't have that anymore. Everything I listened to made it worse. Like, I couldn't listen to Soundgarden anymore. Couldn't listen to the Beatles because we listened to Beatles with Cato. Couldn't, like, couldn't listen to our own music because I made it with Cato.

每支乐队都承载着回忆，每首歌都带着我无法承受的情绪。突然间音乐从我的生活中消失了。这对我来说是最可怕的事，因为突然间这个构成我身份、曾帮我度过一切的事物，和那些人一起不复存在了。这就像是同时遭受三重打击。

Like, everything, every band had a memory attached to it. Every song had an emotion that I couldn't handle. And so suddenly music was not in my life anymore. And that was the scariest thing for me because I suddenly this thing that's my identity that has gotten me through everything is no more along with these people. So it was like it was almost like three losses at the same time.

最终，时间给出了答案。我终于能够重新开始听唱片，

And eventually, got to time is the answer. But eventually, I got to a place where I could start listening to records again,

不

not

不是声音花园，而是从起点开始。我刻意去追溯：我是从哪里爱上音乐的？如何找回自己？于是我从最初爱上的披头士乐队开始，那是我写歌的初衷。

Soundgarden, but I went, where did this start? Like, tried to I very calculatedly went, where did I fall in love with this? Like, how do I find myself again? And so I started at the very beginning, which was the Beatles, where it's the first band I fell in love with. It's the reason I started writing songs.

你知道，就是所有这些事。我从那里开始，听完披头士的所有唱片，反复听精选集，重新寻找其中的快乐。然后按时间顺序重温成长过程中爱上的乐队，直到声音花园。最终我找到了能重新从中获得慰藉的方式，同时创作了《摇滚至死》这张专辑。这张专辑以一种前所未有的方式从我内心倾泻而出。

It's, you know, all the things. Started there, listened to every Beatles record, listened to the anthology, listened to over and over and over to find joy in it again. And then moved on from that and kind of almost chronological order of the bands that I fell in love with growing up to now, eventually ending in Soundgarden. And I found a place where I could listen to it and have it bring me some kind of comfort again, but also writing the record death by rock and roll. So I made so having to get that out, that record kind of poured out of me in a way that other records have not.

有些歌曲是这样的，但没有完整专辑。那张唱片充满灵感，不是为了任何人，我也没打算发行。我不知道我们是否会录制它，完全没概念。没有Cato我们怎么制作唱片呢？

Some songs have, but not full complete albums like that. And that record was so inspired and it wasn't for anyone and I didn't have the intention of putting it out. I didn't know if we'd record it. I didn't know any of that. Because how are we gonna make a record without Cato?

我不知道。有太多困难要克服，但创作那张唱片是我必须为自己做的事，几乎感觉不是我写的。不过通过完成它，那是我开始走出阴霾的第一步。

I don't know. There's so many things to overcome, but the writing of that record was something that I had to do for me, and it it's almost like I didn't write it, but I think by getting it out, it that was the first step of me starting to be able to turn the corner.

这真的很美，因为正如你所说，经历这些时你会感到非常孤独。不得不重新接触你深爱的事物，却因为它现在带来如此多痛苦——那些与之相连的记忆几乎是一种折磨。嗯。但在悲伤中你也要记住，大多数人绝不希望你们因此断绝联系。慢慢地，目标是重新找回感觉，我相信你能通过音乐感受到他们，在创作时感受到他们。但就连开始创作这个概念本身都他妈太难了。

That's really beautiful because I think it's so it's so isolating when you're going through that, like you just said, and to have to almost reintroduce yourself to something you love so much, but that now is causing you so much pain because because of the remembering of what was connected to that is torture almost. Mhmm. But you also have to always remember in grief that like, most of these people would never want connected you guys, and slowly, the goal is to get back to it so you can feel them through, I'm sure, the music, and you can feel them when you're making it. But even the concept of making it in the beginning is so fucking hard.

太难了。看起来根本不可能，因为我每天都会试着叫Kato的名字。甚至不用刻意，我就是会这么做。因为这样能让他...让他一直存在，懂吗？

So hard. It seems impossible because at the end of the day, I try to say Kato's name every day. I don't even try to, I just still do. Because it keeps him keeps him around, you know?

一直这样做着。

Been doing it.

是啊。他曾是我生命中如此重要的一部分，不可能不谈论他。现在他依然是我生命中的重要部分。我认为这就是面对失去的关键——我明白了虽然痛苦永远不会消失，那种思念和悲伤带来的感受永远不会离开，但强烈程度会改变。就像刚受伤时被劈成两半，鲜血四溅。

Yeah. And so he's also he was such a big part of my life that there's no way to not talk about him. And he's still such a big part of my life. And I think that that's that's the key to loss and to I learned that while that pain never goes away and that feeling of missing them and all the things that come with grief, the intensity does. So it's kind of like when it happens, you're sliced down the middle, you're bleeding everywhere, like blood gushing.

随着时间流逝，伤口愈合，留下巨大的疤痕。那个疤痕...你不再血流满地，但它已成为你的一部分。所以我视每个失去的人为每天携带的伤疤。我为这些伤疤感到骄傲，骄傲它们成为我生命的一部分，骄傲我曾如此深爱他们才能有这般感受。

And as time passes, that wound heals and you're left with a massive scar. And that scar, you know, you're not bleeding all over the floor anymore, but now that's a part of you. And so I look at everyone I've lost as like they're a scar I carry with me every day. And I'm proud to have those scars. I'm proud that they're a part of my life and that I loved them that much to be able to feel the way I feel,

你知道的。我很感谢你分享这些，因为虽然我在节目里轻描淡写地聊过悲痛，但我觉得这始终是...没错，很主观，但当你这样表述时，确实能帮到很多人。我敢肯定此刻就有观众正处在抗争的第一天，那种感觉就像要熬过炼狱般艰难。

you know. I appreciate you sharing that because I think I've lightly talked about grief on the show, but I think it's always so one, yes, subjective, but when you put it like that, I think it can just help a lot of people, because I'm sure there's literally someone watching that's like day one starting to do the battle of It's like get through brutal.

我只想说，这就像《摇滚至死》的蜕变。是的。归根结底这张专辑充满希望。虽然开头非常阴暗压抑，但在尾声处有个积极的转折——这条看似无尽绝望的隧道尽头确实有光。只要坚持住，你终会穿越黑暗。

And the only thing I would say is that like, it's what Death by Rock and Roll turned into. Yeah. Is that at the end of the day, this record the record's very hopeful. Like, it starts off very dark and very bleak, but there's this kind of positive turn towards the end of it that there is light at the end of this tunnel that seems impossible and seems never ending. And if you can just wait it out, you will get to the other side.

这就是我对所有挣扎于抑郁、失去或类似感受的人说的话：情况真的会好转。最操蛋的是当别人在你深陷痛苦时说这句话时，你真想一拳揍在他们脸上。

And that's the thing that I say to anyone who's struggling with depression or loss or anything even remotely close to this kind of feeling is that it does get better. And it's the fucked up thing about that is when people say that to you when you're in it, you wanna punch them in the face.

太真实了。就像'闭嘴吧你懂个屁'那种感觉。

Yeah. So real. Like, shut the fuck up, what do you know?

'你他妈怎么知道会好转？'这种陈词滥调简直——

What the fuck do you know it gets better? Like, what a cliche thing

直到你亲身经历后才会明白：'靠，居然是真的'。

to And then you live it, you're like, oh fuck, it does.

但确实如此。时间会证明一切。

But it does. It does. Time does.

确实如此。

It does.

只要你坚持足够久等到柳暗花明，彼岸自有新天地在等你。

And you can just hang on long enough to get to the other side, there is another side waiting for you.

请详细说说你在音乐和音乐行业里作为女性所感受到的双重标准。

Walk me through what you have felt with double standards when it comes to music and the music industry for you as a woman.

说实话，这可能是个不受欢迎的观点——但每当被问及作为摇滚乐界女性、音乐界女性所面临的双重标准这些问题时，我其实不太从这个角度思考。我活在自己的精神世界里，在我看来音乐就是音乐，好作品不分性别，况且大多数音乐都很糟糕。我只想与最优秀的人同台竞技。

I'll be honest. I get it's probably an unpopular answer, but I I tend to not I get asked a lot what it's like to be a woman in rock and roll and a woman in music and the doubles, know, all the things you just said. And while, yes, it exists, I kinda don't look at it that way. Like, I kinda live in my own maybe I live in my own world, my own mental bubble, but I look at it like music is music, good music is good music, gender doesn't really matter, and most music's crap. That's how like I see it as like, I wanna compete with the best people.

所以作为音乐行业女性的特殊之处在于，你总是被拿来与其他女性音乐人比较。这本身不是坏事——业内有很多杰出女性——但这种比较无形中排除了其他性别的音乐人，甚至不让双方同台竞技。正因如此，我其实不太确定该怎么回答，因为我本就不习惯这样思考问题。

And so the only thing with not the only thing, but the thing with being a woman in the music industry is that you get compared to women in the music industry. Not that that's a bad thing, there's a lot of amazing women, but you're cutting out an entire sect of musicians and not even putting those two next to each other because of a gender thing. So being a so I don't really know because I kinda just don't really think of it that way.