Jason Su: The Joy of Poker

传奇扑克冠军、新一代新星，以及扑克运动的坚定推广者，将分享他们的智慧，助你在绿色牌桌上追求卓越。

Poker's legendary champions, next generation stars, and tireless ambassadors of the game, sharing their wisdom and guiding your journey to high achievement on the green felt.

欢迎收听《追逐扑克的伟大》，我是主持人布拉德·威尔逊。

This is Chasing Poker Greatness with your host, Brad Wilson.

好久没见了。

It's been a while.

你刚开始推出《专注扑克》那会儿，我就在场了。

I was there when you were first releasing Poker with Presence.

书还没正式出版，你就寄给我了，后来你还上过我的播客，我们一直保持联系好多年了。

You sent me the book before I think before it was it was published, and you came on the podcast, and we've been in contact for many years.

首先，真的很高兴你再次回来。

Just, I guess, great having you back on, first and foremost.

那你最近都在忙些什么？

And then what have you what have you been up to?

过去三四年，你的生活有什么变化吗？

What what's changed in your life over the past three or four years?

谢谢，兄弟。

Thanks, man.

是的。

Yeah.

能回来真好。

It's good to be back.

我记得你几年前就邀请我回来，当时我也想来，但我总觉得得先做出点像样的东西，再回来谈自己。

I remember you invited me back, like, maybe a few years ago, but I was like and I wanted to, but I was like, I I wanna make something substantial first before I come back and talk about myself some more.

现在，我终于有了。

So now now I have it.

我的新书出版了。

I got the new book.

书出来了，质量特别棒，读者反响也非常好。

It's out and it's really, really good and the people love it.

这下我回来聊天，也算是名正言顺了。

So now I'm I'm, like, justified to to come back and hang out.

所以，这算是发生在我身上的一件大事：五年来，我每天都在一线做教练，跟人打交道，不断摸索哪些方法有效、哪些无效，什么样的方式能激发人的潜能，让人真正投入、感到有目标和满足，然后根据这些经验，持续调整我的教练方式、教学方法，还有我的生活方式。

So so that's that's one of the the big things that happened is, you know, five years of just in the trenches coaching every day, hanging out with people, learning so much stuff about what works, what doesn't, what creates high performance, what makes a human being present, what makes a human being feel purposeful and fulfilled, and then constantly just updating how I how I coach, how I teach, how I live based on everything that I'm learning.

这是第一点。

That's number one.

另外，个人生活上，我们家现在有个小宝宝到处跑。

And then, yeah, personally, we we have a small child running around the house now.

我都不记得是怎么发生的了。

I don't know how that happened.

不过，其实我知道是怎么发生的。

Well, I do know how that happened.

但确实，有了孩子之后，对时间的体验完全不一样了，我相信你也能懂。

But but, yeah, it makes the experience of time, as as a human being completely different, which I'm sure you know.

当然。

Definitely.

这简直是彻底改变了人生。

It it it it's a game changer.

我记得那时候，约翰，我的商业伙伴，他妻子怀孕了，他正在制定计划。

I remember when, John, my, business partner, was his wife was pregnant, and he was putting a plan in place.

他跟我说，我觉得吧，我知道这听起来有点疯狂，但我觉得生活不会发生太大变化。

And he told me, I think like, I know this sounds this sounds crazy, but I don't think it's gonna change very much.

我觉得我已经有一套应对的方法了。

I think I've got a system.

我当时就回应说，对。

And I'm like, yeah.

对。

Yeah.

当然。

Sure.

没问题。

Sure.

好的，兄弟。

Sure, buddy.

事情就会这么发展。

That's that's how it's gonna how it's gonna work out.

真是太好了。

It's so great.

真是太好了。

It's so great.

后来我有六个月没见他，他跟我说：老兄，事实是这样。

You know, then I didn't see him for, like, six months, and he's like, dude, this.

我根本没什么计划。

I did not have a system.

结果跟我想的完全不一样。

It did not work out the way I thought it would.

孩子有个特别有意思的地方，就是他们根本不按你的想法来。

You know, it's funny thing about babies is they don't care about what you want.

是啊。

Yeah.

说来也挺有意思，几年前我们孩子出生的时候，她刚满两岁，我就跟所有客户说，我要休息一阵子，大概几个月吧。那些没孩子的客户都回我说，好的，知道了，你什么时候回来通知一声就行。

It's it's it's funny because I I when when we had the kid a couple years, she just turned two, was I I told all my clients, alright, I'm going on break for a while, probably a couple months and the the clients I have who did not have kids were like, alright, yeah, just you know, let me know when when you're back.

我们迟早会再回来做的。

We're we're gonna get back to it.

而那些有孩子的客户则直接说，对。

And the clients who did have kids were like, yeah.

你尽管安心休，别着急。

Just take as long as you need, man.

没关系的。

It's fine.

两种反应差别可真大。

It was a very different response.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

是的

Yeah.

我带的学员大多在二十多岁来找我，之后就会经历一系列重大人生变化：谈恋爱、结婚、买房，然后生孩子。

One of my I I guess I'm I'm at this funny the people that I coach tend to be going through these major life changes because they come to me in their mid twenties, and then they get in a serious relationship, and then they get married, and they buy a house, and then they have a kid.

所以，我见过很多次这样的循环了。

And so, like, I've I've seen this cycle many times through my players.

每次都是这样，事情的实际难度都会比你想象的更大。

And, yeah, it's every time, it's like, it's gonna be harder than you think.

该休息多久就休息多久。

Take as much time as you need.

等你觉得自己准备好了，自然就会回来，到时候我们再继续。

And when you're ready, you'll know that you're ready and just come back and and we'll get to work.

这确实是唯一正确的做法。

That that's really the only way that you can you can play it.

对

Yeah.

等你准备好了，最棒的是，你会发现自己身上藏着远超想象的潜力，这种力量是当了父母之后才会真正体会到的。

And then when you're ready, the cool part is, you get you get the the the dad superpowers of of just there's a lot more in the tank than you thought, which is just kind of this awesome thing that comes with becoming a parent.

是的。

Yeah.

你会真正了解自己有多坚强，能承受多少。

You you learn what you're made of, and what you're capable of.

这确实是个很大的收获。

That's definitely a big benefit.

没错。

Mhmm.

太棒了。

Awesome.

你提到的这一点特别吸引我，因为这也正是我 coaching 方法的核心——通过不断试错，弄清楚哪些方法行不通，我觉得这是成长过程中必不可少的一步，虽然我猜不是所有教练都这么做。

Talk talk to me about something you said is really interesting to me because it's also a part of my coaching methodology, and I would hope the process of coaching for all coaches, although I I suspect it's probably not, but that iterative process of learning what doesn't work, which I think is almost it's mandatory if you're going to grow.

对你来说，这个过程是怎样的？

And what does that look like for you?

你平时是怎么通过尝试、失败、再调整，来持续提升自己的教练能力的？

What is, learning what doesn't work, testing something out, that iterative, process to regularly upgrade your coaching ability look like for you?

嗯，我觉得你说得对，确实如此。

Well, yeah, it starts with the idea that I think you're right.

大多数人根本不会这么做，因为他们已经被训练得只想避开失败带来的痛苦——比如试了新方法却搞砸了，或者当众出丑。所以我一开始跟每个人打交道时，都会直截了当地说：咱们得学会把这种事看淡。当你觉得某件事是对的、是直觉告诉你要做的，你就去做，不再害怕失败带来的不适和痛苦。一旦你不再逃避这种感觉，人就真正自由了，才能大胆去尝试。至于我本人，我根本没有什么固定的教练流程或清单，不会按部就班地一套套走。每次对话都完全不一样。

Most people don't do this because they're just they they become so conditioned to want to avoid the pain that comes with something happening that involves you falling flat on your face or you trying something new and and it doesn't work out and and so for for me what I work with everybody on, you know, point blank when when we start is like okay we we need to learn how to make that not a big deal for you of of okay, you go for something that feels right and and that feels intuitive and instinctive and it's like, just this is what I wanna do and you you're able to do it because you no longer are afraid of or needing to avoid the discomfort, the pain, the feeling that comes with failing and and when you remove that obstacle all of a sudden everybody is freed up to just start trying stuff And and so for me personally, it just comes with this idea that I don't have a coaching script or agenda, I don't I don't have a specific point by point thing, go down the list with people on when they come to work with me, it's it's much different.

我就是静下心来听对方说什么，然后想到什么就说什么。有时候话说出来效果没那么强，但恰恰是这些看似随意的回应，反而让我更快地帮人找到突破。相比之下，太多教练——不管是练技术、心理还是其他方面——都太死守自己的那一套方法了，结果反而错过了真正有用的东西，因为他们只愿意重复过去的做法。可成长根本不是这么来的。

It's I'm just gonna listen to what's happening and then I'm gonna open my mouth and and then whatever comes out is what's going to come out and sometimes it doesn't hit as hard but but then that's also how I've found the big breakthroughs and stuff with people much faster than I ever could have with a script of like, we're gonna do this and then we're gonna do this and then we're gonna do this and and I think way too many coaches both technically and working on performance or mental game or whatever you wanna call it are are way too married to this is how I do it, and as a result, they're not able to find cool stuff because they're just needing to do it in the way that they've always done it, and and that's not how you grow.

是的。

Yeah.

过去四到六个月，这个理念一直让我着迷。

That it's a concept I've been obsessed with over the past four to six months.

我的思维就像钟摆，一直在各个方向来回摆动。

My pendulum has it it just is continuing to swing back and forth in in many directions.

但当我刚开始做CFP时，我的重心完全偏向了数据——数据催生出固定、僵化的流程。而我最近最着迷的概念，就是动态与静态质量的区别。

But when I started my CFP, my pendulum shifted really hard into data, which data gives birth to hard protocols or static quality, which is the the concept I've been obsessed with is dynamic and static quality.

我知道你在最新书里引用了蒂莫西·加尔韦的话，顺便说一下，我到现在只读了一半你的书。

You I know you you quoted Timothy Galway in your your latest book, which is, and just in full disclosure, I've read half of of your book so far.

不错啊。

Oh, nice.

这本书排在我现在读的四本书里之一。

It's in the rotation of, like, four.

我最近在读《网球的内心游戏》《禅与摩托车维修艺术》，还有《 wherever you go, there you are》。

I'm currently reading, the inner game of tennis, zen, and the art of motorcycle maintenance.

无论你走到哪儿，你都跟着你。

Wherever you go, there you are.

还有一本跟这些完全无关的奇幻小说。

And then a fantasy book that has nothing to do with any of those.

你的书也在我的阅读清单里。

And then your book is also in the rotation.

这些书的共同点都是关于动态品质，这个概念我让你来给听众解释一下吧，毕竟这是你的专长。

But they all all of those have that the commonality of dynamic quality, which I'll let you share your definition of, you know, static and dynamic quality for the listener because this is your area of of expertise.

你这么说，是因为你给了我这个词。

When you say that because you give me that term.

这可是我的专长。

This is my area of expertise.

好吧，我明白了。

I'm like, okay.

你能不能解释清楚点？我可能用的是不一样的说法，得知道你具体指什么。

Please define it so I know exactly what you're talking because I probably use different words given that.

我没听懂你刚说的那部分。

I don't know what you just said.

我平时也总用不一样的词。

And I've always used different words too.

我觉得打扑克的人特别能理解这个，这个词是我从乔什·韦德采访安德鲁·休伯曼的对话里听来的。

And it's a thing that I think poker players are very familiar with, and the terminology hit me in, or was given to me in a Josh Wade skin interview with Andrew Huberman.

那时候我正在散步，突然有了一种像里克·鲁宾那样的顿悟时刻——我跟约翰刚聊过这事儿，结果就听到了一个我从没听过的词。

And I was on my walk, actually, and I had, like, a Rick Rubin type of moment where me and John had been talking about this exact thing, and then I heard a term I didn't know.

所以我一边散步，一边想：这到底是什么意思？

And so I'm on my walk, and I'm like, oh, what does that mean?

然后我上网搜了一下，结果一下子就明白了。

And I I Google it, and then boom.

这说的不就是我们刚才讨论的那件事吗？

It was the exact thing that we were talking about.

这就是那种玄之又玄的直觉，那种说不清道不明却总在引导你做出超常决策的感觉——你没法解释，也没法量化，但它就在那儿。

But it's it's the it factor that intuition, the gut feeling that seems to come out of nowhere that is guiding you to making above the rim decisions that you cannot explain, you cannot quantify, but there it is.

这本质上就是动态品质。

And that's essentially dynamic quality.

而另一方面，静态品质就是一套死板的规则。

And static quality on the other hand is hard protocols.

就是你照着做的策略。

It's a strategy that you just follow.

就像一个食谱一样。

It's a recipe.

你什么都不改，不管发生什么，都一直照着做。

You don't change anything, and you just always do this no matter what.

动态品质有趣的地方在于，它根本没法被固定下来。

And the interesting thing about dynamic quality is that it can't be contained.

只要你一把动态品质变成静态品质，它就不再是动态品质了。

As soon as you turn dynamic quality into static quality, it's no longer dynamic quality anymore.

所以在比赛中，你突然灵光一现，事后你就会静下来琢磨。

So you have a, you know, lightning bolt of a revelation in game, and then afterwards, you sit with it.

你思考为什么那个举动感觉那么好，然后把它总结成规则。

You think about why it was that that, that action felt so good, and then you quantify it.

下次再遇到类似情况时，它就不再是动态的了。

It's the next time you're in that situation, it's no longer dynamic.

因为它已经被你框住了，变成了静态的。

It's static because you've you've contained it.

对。

Yeah.

不错。

Cool.

我喜欢这种说法，真棒。

I like that's cool.

我喜欢你刚才说的这个描述。

I like that in the description you gave in.

没错，这正是我最喜欢做、也最愿意聊的事情。

And, yes, this is this is, what I love to do and and talk about as it turns out.

我觉得，你必须先有静态的部分，得有扎实的理解基础，才能真正进入动态的、即兴发挥的境界。

What what I think is that you you need the the static part, you need that foundation of understanding in order to get to the the dynamic part of of able to being able to improvise.

对吧？

Right?

因为所有出色的即兴发挥，背后都离不开扎实的基本功。

Because all great improvisation is grounded in in strong fundamentals underneath it.

问题出在那些过于死板、死守所学基础的人，他们反而无法突破到最高层次。

Where it gets messy is the people who want to be really strict and adhere to the the foundations that they learn, they they don't get to access that that last level.

他们最后就成了中层管理者，对吧？就是只负责执行命令、照着吩咐做事。中层管理确实能让你赚到钱，买得起房和车，过上体面的生活，但你总会有一种挥之不去的感觉：我本可以做得更好，我还没发挥出全部潜力，生活不该只是这样——这就是过这种生活要付出的代价。

They they end up essentially becoming middle management, right, of of just I'm just here to carry out orders and and do what I'm told, which middle management, you can you can make your living, you can get your house and your car and and you know, live live in a decent place, but you always end up living with this constant feeling of I could be doing better, I'm I'm not realizing my full potential, there there's more to it, and and so that's that's the cost you pay in with with living like that.

你迟早会碰到彼得原理。

You you eventually always hit you always get Peter principled.

你会到达一个自己根本不够格胜任的层级，怎么都干不好。

You you end up hitting a level that you're not qualified to to get into and and succeed at.

这就是它的代价。

So that's that's the cost of that.

而另一种活法是去探索动态的一面，把每个情境都看作独一无二的，就像现在这样。

So living in this other way of of exploring the dynamic qualities of seeing every situation as unique of, like, this is this is it.

这是唯一一次会发生的事，我正真切地感受到：这就是对的。

This is the only time this is gonna happen, and I'm having an experience of just feeling like this is right.

它建立在我长期积累的基本功上，但我并不需要死守那些规则。

It's grounded in in fundamentals that I've learned over time, but I don't need to stick to them all the time.

我完全允许自己去追随当下最吸引我的选择，就算摔得惨，我也能坦然面对，不会因此怀疑自己是不是够格，失去信心，或者觉得我不配成功。

I'm I give myself full permission to to go for the thing that appeals to me right now, and if I fall flat on my face, I am able to deal with that in a healthy way that's not going to prevent me from feeling like I'm a good player or feeling confident or or feeling like I don't deserve to win.

如果你能真正做到这些，你就打开了通向最高水平游戏的大门——在我看来，这才是打扑克唯一值得玩的部分。因为我们玩扑克，本来就是为了不用听命行事、打卡上下班、重复做同一件事，可偏偏大多数职业玩家最终还是陷入了同样的模式，只是波动更大而已。

See if you can do all of that, then you open up that gateway to the highest level of play which to me is is the only part of poker worth playing because if you're we we get into poker so that we don't have to carry out orders and and clock in and clock out and and just do the same thing over and over and yet so many most professionals end up doing exactly that just with a lot more variance.

对。

Yeah.

这正是打扑克的艺术，根据我的经验来说。

It's the it's the art of poker, of playing poker in my experience.

我完全同意，这正是扑克对我而言还保持吸引力的唯一原因。

And I I'm 100% agree that it's the only reason why poker is still interesting to me.

如果每次打牌都走同样的路子，那简直太无聊了，根本提不起劲儿。

If if there were essentially just paths that I went down every single time that I played, then that would be pretty boring and just not not very stimulating.

我得说，昨天我们在狼群教练小组做了一个练习。

I will say there like, we were, doing exercise in in wolf group coaching yesterday.

我问大家，作为人，你是更偏向安全，还是更偏向即兴？

I was asking everyone if they were more biased towards, safety or spontaneity, right, just like as as human beings.

很多人其实更倾向安全。

And a lot of them were biased towards safety.

我偏向于随性，而且是那种极端的偏向。

I am biased towards spontaneity in, an ex I feel like an ex an extreme way.

他们的想法是，其实他们也更希望偏向随性一些。

And their thoughts were, you know, that they would rather be more biased towards spontaneity.

但我跟他们说，这并不总是好事。

And I told them, like, it's not it's not always a great thing.

总是随性、毫无章法地做事，确实有风险，搞不好就会把自己毁了。

Like, there there are definitely pitfalls of always being spontaneous and operating in an unstructured way where you can just blow yourself up.

我觉得，初学者的打法和所有行动，根源就在于随性。

I would say that spontaneity is at the root of beginning poker players' strategy and everything that they do.

他们完全是凭感觉行事，缺乏结构，结果往往不太理想。

They are pure spun spun purely spontaneous, and that doesn't tend to work out super well for them them lacking structure.

我常这么想：如果说动态是瓶中的闪电，那静态就是那个瓶子。

And I guess the way that I think about it, as far as, like, static and dynamic qualities that, you know, if dynamic quality is lightning in a bottle, then static quality is the bottle.

你得有这个瓶子，才能把闪电接住，对吧。

And you kind of need the bottle to catch Oh, yeah.

抓住那道闪电。

Catch the lightning.

不过，我完全同意，在我看来，扑克里依然有魔力。

But, yeah, I'm in a 100% agreement that in my opinion, there's still magic in poker.

还有很多没人关注的路子等着被发现。

There's still undiscovered paths that nobody's looking at.

大家都在盯着一个方向，其实该看这边。

Everybody's looking one way, but they should be looking this way.

或者也可以试试别的方向，慢慢观察效果如何——这正是我们项目里常做的事：没有什么是不能动的。

Or they could be looking another way, and they could test that and and see how that goes over time, which is another thing that that we do in my program is nothing is sacred.

一切都可以讨论，我们会做实验，看结果，再追踪这些结果长期的变化。

Everything is up for debate, and we will experiment and look at the results and see how those results kinda track over time.

对。

Yeah.

太棒了，兄弟。

That's beautiful, man.

没错。

Yeah.

所有东西都只是建议。

Everything's just a suggestion.

有些建议比别的更好，但对玩家来说，一切终究只是建议，因为你得自己做主。

Some suggestions better than others, but everything for for people when when they play is really just a suggestion because you need to be at the controls.

不然就别玩了。

If not, don't bother.

就像你说的，如果新手是凭着直觉在玩，那到底是在什么时候，你真正爱上了这个游戏？

And and like you said, if if the beginning player is operating from the place of spontaneity, well, at which point are you falling in love with the game?

是在你随性发挥的时候，还是在死记硬背、一遍遍重复相同策略的时候？

Is it when you're doing that or when you're memorizing and and carrying out the exact same strategies over and over?

前者让你爱上这个游戏，愿意花所有时间去玩。

And so so one makes you fall in love with the game, wanna spend all your time doing it.

后者却让你想放弃，再也不碰它。

The other one makes you want to quit and never do it again.

游戏本身没变。

It's the same game.

关键在于你怎么玩。

It's how you approach it.

游戏本身既不特别出色，也不糟糕。

The game is is neither amazing nor horrible.

它只是让你展现内心这两面的一个工具。

It's just a vehicle for you to express these two sides of yourself.

没错，你确实得学这些规则，但要是太较真，把自己完全束缚住，一点自主空间都没有，那简直是一种折磨。

And, yes, you do need to learn this stuff, but to take it so seriously that that you leave no room for yourself to make any decisions, have no agency, that's that's torture.

当然。

Sure.

没错。

Of course.

我特别赞同你刚才说的，说是因为那种即兴发挥，人才会真正爱上这个游戏。

And I I I love what you said there about falling in love with the game due to the spontaneous nature.

每件事都是新的。

Everything's new.

你正在解决的问题，以前从来没见过。

The problems that you're solving, you've never encountered before.

要在当下为一个陌生的问题找到精准的解决方案。

And to come up with the exact solution that you need in the moment to a a foreign problem.

这才能真正激发你的热情。

I mean, that's that gets you going.

我觉得，这正是当初让人投身扑克世界的原因。

I think that that that's what gets people who are pulled into the world of poker going in in in the first place.

所以你会发现，哪怕到了现在，我依然会遇到一些答不上来的问题。

And so to realize that, like, even after all this time, I still see problems that I don't know the answer to.

除了靠自己去思考，我没有任何现成的答案可以套用。

I don't have an answer to pull anywhere from other than internally and then to come up.

是的。

Yeah.

我手头的工具比以往任何时候都好得多，但解决问题、自己琢磨出答案，这些工作还是得自己来做。

I have bet much better tools than I've ever had before, but you still have to do the work of of problem solving and being able to figure it out.

对我来说，这正是打扑克最有趣的地方。

Like, that that to me is just, it's the fun part of poker.

正是它让这游戏充满吸引力。

It's what makes it exciting.

所以，你的新书叫《扑克的快乐》，这名字真贴切，也自然地承接了之前的话题——《扑克的快乐》。

And so all of that, you know, your new book is The Joy of Poker, which is a very apt title and I think segues pretty well from there into, The Joy of Poker.

为什么选这个书名？

So why this title?

在《专注的扑克》之后，你为什么选择这条路作为下一部作品？

Why this path for your your follow-up after Poker With Presence?

是的。

Yeah.

我本来没打算写第二本书。

I I wasn't planning to write a second book.

我本来以为这本书就到此为止了。

I really thought I was gonna it's gonna be it.

大概两年前，我突然意识到，这本书已经不能代表我如今对扑克的理解，也不能体现扑克真正能带来的可能性。

Maybe two years ago, I I had a moment of realization where I thought, you know, this this book is no longer representative of what I know is possible and and what poker can be.

我依然喜欢它。

It's I still like it.

它不错，但跟我现在学到的新东西比起来，根本没法比。

It's good, but it's not even close to all the new stuff that I've learned since then.

所以我真心希望整个扑克圈能少一点痛苦，别一上桌就愁眉苦脸的。

And so one of the things that I I really wish for the poker community as a whole is for everybody to stop being so damn miserable all the time when they're when they're at the table.

我深信不疑，而且我带过的每个人也都验证过：你根本不用在赢钱和享受乐趣之间做选择。

I strongly believe and I've I've seen this backed up over and over with everybody that I work with that you don't have to choose anymore between winning and having a good time.

大家都觉得非此即彼，要么赢，要么开心，但事实恰恰相反。

Everybody seems to think there's a choice either either I either I get to win or I think I have a good time, but it's actually the opposite.

你越玩得开心，赢钱就越容易。你得重新找回当初爱上这个游戏时的那种感觉——那种自发的、开放的心态，愿意去探索所有可能，勇敢追求自己想要的，尽情享受高光时刻；当低谷来临时，也别躲着，就坦然去感受那份痛苦，而不是一味地控制每一个动作，生怕出错。而很多认真玩牌的人，恰恰就陷在了这种过度防范的模式里。

The more fun you have, the easier it becomes to win and and so you've got to recapture the part of you that fell in love with the game, that kind of spontaneous nature, that openness to just seeing all possibilities, that going after what you want, that really celebrating the highs and, you know, when the lows hit feeling the pain instead of micromanaging every action you take to avoid the pain which which is tends to be what serious players end up doing.

所以，对，让我们找回那份初心和热情，把它重新注入到你体内，而且这次是带着你从大量学习中积累的结构化思维。

And so, yeah, let's recapture the the thing, the spark, and put it back and get put it back in you now from the place where you've learned so much structure.

你看，现在你已经掌握了结构化的部分。

See, now you've done the structured part.

那么，现在让我们把最初的那部分找回来，这样你就能把游戏水平和表现提升到全新的高度。如果你一直待在那种看似冷静、实则痛苦的境地——就像现在走进任何扑克室时大家表现出的那样——否则你是无法达到这个高度的。

Well, now let's put that first part back in so that you can take your game to a whole another level, your your performance to a whole another level that currently you you otherwise cannot if you're operating from that kinda stoic, miserable place that everybody seems to, you know, look like when you walk into any poker room now.

你如何帮助人们摆脱这种过度结构化呢？

How do you help folks remove the structure?

这感觉就像走钢丝或者玩空中飞车的演员，把安全网给撤掉了。

Or it's almost like a trapeze artist or a a tightrope walker kind of removing their safety net.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得对于那些在高度结构化环境下打牌的玩家来说，就是这种感觉，不管是数据驱动的结构，还是GTO驱动的结构。

I think that's how it feels for players that operate in high structure, whether that be a data driven structure, or GTO driven structure.

不管哪种方式，核心都是结构。

Either way, it's it's structure.

依我经验，人天生就很难放下安全网，独自行动并为自己的牌桌决策承担责任。

And in my experience, human beings are very resistant to removing their safety net and kind of operating on their own and having to take responsibility for the actions that they take at the poker table.

大家对放下这个安全网都特别抗拒。

They're we're we're we're very, very resistant to removing that.

在我的经验里，很多情况下，我作为教练最大的失败，就是遇到那些极度抗拒改变的玩家，根本没法建立有效的教练关系，我也束手无策。

And in some cases, in my experience, and I I think it's quite likely, my my biggest failures as a coach have come from players who are so resistant to doing that that it just doesn't work from a a coach and player relationship standpoint, and I wasn't able to solve that problem to move past it.

这些是我最遗憾的事。

I those are my biggest regrets.

我最深的遗憾，是没能帮他们安全地完成这个过渡。

What I feel are my biggest failures as a coach is not being able to handle that transition in a way that they felt safe.

他们既要感到安心舒适，又得愿意承担更多个人风险。

They they continue to feel safe and comfortable while also taking on more personal risk.

那你怎么解决这个问题？

So how do you go about resolving that?

你怎么帮人学会在没有安全网的情况下打球？

Help helping folks operate without that safety net?

这根本不是你的责任，非要让每个人都做到这一点。

Well, it's definitely not your job to to make sure everybody, is is able to do that.

我觉得不是。

I don't think.

说实话，很多人就是不愿意走这一步，那你再说什么、做什么都没用。

See, because the truth is a lot of people are just gonna be unwilling to to go there, and then there's literally nothing you can say or do.

所以，有很大一部分人根本就会说：不，我不干。

So that that's a good chunk of the people who just are gonna be like, no.

我就是不去那儿。

I'm not not gonna go there.

如果换作是我，我的做法就是：好吧。

And then and then, if it were if it were me, my job would be like, okay.

那咱们就到此为止吧。

This is where this is where we part ways then.

对吧？

Right?

与其试图说服他们，说这对你有好处，因为有些人就是还没准备好。

And and so and rather than try and convince them that, hey, this would be good for you because some people are just not ready.

这主要是时机的问题。

It's it's a timing thing.

可能是人生阶段还没到，还没准备好，或者就是不愿意。

So it's just not the right time in life, not ready to do it or or just refusing.

这完全没问题。

And and that's totally fine.

我要说的是，恰恰相反。

What what I will say is that it's the opposite.

我想打造的是一个安全网。

Like, I want to build the safety net.

你要成为自己的安全网。

You become your own safety net.

对吧？

Right?

比如说，如果你仔细分析一下，就会发现有些人总是习惯性地过度折叠。

Like, if we because if you break it down and you take, say, some bias somebody has towards they they always like to overfold.

让我想想。

Let's see.

根据数据，你这么操作每年要多花这么多钱，你一展示给他们看，他们就会说，好吧。

Based on the data you're overfolding, this is costing you this much money, you show them, and they're like, okay.

明白了。

Cool.

可他们转身还是照旧。

And then they go and they keep doing it.

那如果你再深入一点，他们到底在逃避什么，才导致这种行为呢？

Well, if you break it down, okay, well, what is the thing that they're needing to avoid that drives this behavior?

对吧？

Right?

如果你拆开来看，其实就是，我怕一打电话，就会输掉。

If you break it down, okay, it's like, okay, if I'm I'm I'm afraid if I call, I'm gonna lose.

好的。

Okay.

对。

Yeah.

但我们还没到那一步。

But we're not quite there yet.

好的。

Okay.

打电话失败有什么问题？

And what's the problem with calling and losing?

好的。

Okay.

我的账户余额会变少。

My bank will be lower.

好的。

Okay.

那有什么问题呢？

What's the problem with that?

那我就得为钱发愁了。

Then I would have to worry about money.

那又有什么问题呢？

What's the problem with that?

好的。

Okay.

那感觉会特别糟。

It would feel really crappy.

然后呢，问题就在这儿。

And then there, that's that's the thing.

对吧？

Right?

那感觉会非常糟糕。

It it would feel awful.

那感觉会特别糟。

It would feel it was terrible.

那又有什么问题呢？

And then what's the problem with that?

我不想有那种感觉。

I don't wanna feel that.

好吧。

Okay.

所以，现在这确实是唯一能让那些表面上忙忙碌碌、看起来一团糟的人继续下去的原因。

So now that's that's literally the only thing that keeps somebody who's doing all this stuff on the surface and and it looks really bad.

让他们坚持下去的，就只是我不想有那种感觉。

The only thing that's keeping them there is I don't want to feel that.

对吧？

Right?

为什么呢？

Because why?

你为什么不想感受那种情绪？

Why do you not want to feel that?

因为那种感觉太难受了。

Because it doesn't feel good.

就这么简单。

And that's it.

如果把问题简化到这一步，那我们总算能真正着手解决了。

If you break it down into that, okay, now we can actually work with this.

明白了。

Okay.

那如果还是不舒服，但你并不觉得这是个问题，因为你知道自己该怎么应对这种不舒服的状态呢？

Well, what if what if it still didn't feel good, but it wasn't a problem that it didn't feel good because you knew how to handle yourself when it was not feeling good.

你知道怎么在那种时候依然保持平静。

You knew how to still feel okay.

你知道怎么在那种时候依然保持自信。

You knew how to still feel confident.

你知道怎么继续前进，因为那种感觉本身已经不再是个大问题了。

You knew how to still feel ready to keep going because the feeling itself is no longer a huge problem.

你看，最后人们总是反复提醒自己：我不要有这种感觉，我不要有这种感觉，结果逃避的行为反而比原本想躲开的感受伤害更大。

See, what ends up happening is that people build up that experience so much like oh I don't want to feel that, I don't want to feel that, and and then the behavior ends up being far more damaging than the actual experience that they're looking to avoid.

所以这才是关键。

So that's the work.

对吧？

Right?

真正的挑战在于，你怎么学会安住在这种不适里，完全接受它正在发生，同时还能对自己说：我还在，我没事。

That's the work is how can you learn how to just be in that discomfort to accept completely that it's happening in a way that still feels like, hey, I'm still here.

我挺好的。

I'm okay.

其实没我想的那么糟。

It's not as bad as I thought.

我平时跟人打交道，第一步就是让他们明白：你一直紧张回避的那些事，咱们现在就来面对它。

And and that's kinda day one for what I always do with people is show them, hey, everything that you've been freaking out about that you've been managing your life to avoid, let's do it now.

我现在就让你感受一下。

I'm gonna make you feel that now.

对吧？

Right?

你现在就会感受到，只要做这几件事，就没你想象的那么糟。

You're gonna feel that now, and I'm gonna show you it's not that bad if you just do these few things.

对吧？

Right?

然后总是会说，哦，确实如此。

And always are like, oh, yeah.

其实也没那么严重。

It wasn't that bad.

只是我在脑子里把它放大了。

I was just building it up in my head.

一旦你卸下这层心理负担，你就能成为自己的依靠，因为你明白，不管发生什么，都只是个不舒服的感觉，你不必喜欢它，但你可以学会在它存在时安然处之，而且它不会永远持续下去。

So once you remove that layer, you are your own safety net because you know that no matter what happens, it's just an uncomfortable feeling and you don't have to like it, but you can learn how to be okay while it's there, and it's not gonna stay there forever.

不错。

Nice.

所以，我想在你开始感受情绪的第一天之后，接下来该怎么做呢？

So I guess I guess after kind of day one in in your process of feeling the feelings, where do you go from there?

在师生关系中，下一步该是什么？

What's the the next step in student teacher relationship?

对。

Yeah.

接下来就是最有趣的部分了，但你得先学会和自己的情绪相处，才能做这些有趣的事。

Well well then we get to do the fun stuff because you don't get to do any of the fun stuff until you you learn how to be present with your feelings.

一旦你做到了，天啊，所有精彩的事情都会接踵而至——那些高难度的、让人惊艳的时刻。因为当你真正面对情绪时，你会对眼前的局面有全新的理解，能看到更多机会，想到更多可能性，甚至觉得‘这主意不错’。

But but once you are, man, all the fun stuff happens that above the rim stuff because feeling your feelings opens you up to have a different experience at the table, being able to see different openings, being able to see different possibilities and consider that this could be a good idea.

它能让你更清楚地察觉自己的直觉，然后去信任它。

It allows you to recognize your instincts and and then trust them.

再说一遍，就像你看到一个超远距离的精彩配合，或者一个神级假动作、绝妙骗术，你心里想冲上去试试。但大多数人不敢行动，只是因为怕万一结果不如预期，自己会受不了那种难受的感觉。

And because again, it's like if you see an above the rim play and you see some, you know, sick call down, sick hero call, or sick bluff that you might wanna go for, Again, what keeps people from going for it is just I don't I don't want to feel how it feels in case this does not turn out how I would like it to turn out.

这确实是阻止人们发挥出最高水平、触及让扑克变得精彩的那个自我的唯一原因。

That's that's literally the only thing that keeps people from accessing their highest highest level of play, accessing the parts of themselves that make poker amazing.

但一旦去掉这一层障碍，你就会突然准备好跳进去，相信自己的直觉，去尝试一些大胆的举动，因为你明白直觉不可能每次都对。

So but again, if that layer is removed, now all of a sudden, you're you're ready to go jump in, trust your instincts, go for some stuff because you understand that your instincts are not like a 100 going to be correct.

但它们通常很靠谱，比你选择别的做法要强得多。

But they're gonna be pretty good, much better than if you did the other thing.

你得学会接受那种疯狂的诈唬被对手顶牌碾压后的后果，能坦然面对那种体验，接受别人说你蠢、说你手牌这么强还 bluff，说你根本没资格这么打，你没有合适的阻断牌等等。

And and so your ability to deal with the fallout of having that sick bluff just run into the top of somebody's range that time and being able to be okay having that experience, being okay having other people feeling, hi, you're so stupid.

那手牌明明该弃的。

That hand is a pure fold.

你居然敢全下？真不敢相信。

I can't believe you shoved that, right?

你能听进去这些指责，感受自己的情绪，却依然相信自己，毫无悔意，这才让你有机会等到诈唬成功、胜率飙升的那一刻。

Your hand's too good to bluff, blah blah blah, you're not supposed to do that with that, you don't have the right blockers to see being able to hear all that and then feel all your own feelings and still be okay trusting yourself and being happy with no regrets, that allows you to have the other thing where the sick bluff gets through and your win rate starts to skyrocket.

如果你不敢蹚这趟浑水，就永远别想得到那些好结果。

So you don't you don't get the good stuff if you're not ready to go through the the mud.

就是关于这种冒险的过程，那种冲进去的体验。

About the mud and the the process the process of of going for it.

对吧？

Right?

我们新来的一只小狼加入后，我们那位高注额玩家正好在打一局，就把自己的压力分享给了这只小狼。

One of my one of one of our new wolves came in, and, our high stakes player was playing a session and offered up a sweat to the the wolf pup.

这小狼就看着，你知道的，我们那位今年在10/20级别上每百手赢13个大盲的K级高手——那个据说没人能赢的平台。

And the wolf pup watched, you know, our our our two k crusher who's winning this year at, like, 13 big blinds per 100 at at ten twenty on the site that that nobody can win on, allegedly.

是的。

Yeah.

这小狼被他吓到了。

The pup sweated him.

打完之后，我和他聊了聊，他说，关键是他根本没做任何疯狂的事。

And after the session, you know, him and I talked about it, and and he said, like, you know, the thing is he wasn't doing anything insane.

他的体会就是，整局牌下来，他根本没做任何出格的举动。

Like, he like, that that was sort of his takeaway was, like, he he wasn't he wasn't doing any anything crazy, like, throughout throughout the play.

没什么是我看不懂或者没预料到的。

There was nothing that, like, I didn't understand or I didn't really see coming.

我和约翰聊过这事，我觉得他不是在讽刺，但有些人说‘这人挺稳，从不干疯狂的事’的时候，确实带着点贬义。

And me and John had a conversation about that, and I think that I I don't think he meant it in a derisive way, but I think some people do when they're like, oh, this guy, he's just like he's he's solid, doesn't really do anything insane.

不过我和约翰听了都笑了，我们说，你知不知道在一场牌局里，不干点疯狂的事有多难？

But me and John kind of had a had a laugh, and we're like, like, do you know how hard it is not to do insane things in a session?

对我来说，内心总在拉扯：一方面，我想做点什么，就为了看看会发生什么——我自己也明白，这可能是某种原始、不太靠谱的冲动。

Like, to me, it there's competing impulses of the thing that I want to do, which I, sometimes I recognize as, potentially, like, fishy, primitive part of myself that just, like, wants to do something just to see what would happen, but don't doesn't really think it's super great.

另一方面，更理性的那部分我知道该走哪条路。

The part the the more rational part of me that knows there's a path.

但有时候，我又会感觉，我就想这么做，因为直觉告诉我，这才是对的。

And then sometimes there's that feeling that I'm just going to do this because I because I feel like it is the right thing to do.

要分辨这些情绪冲动，真的特别难，因为它们的感觉太像了。

And being able to navigate those emotional impulses, I think it is extremely tricky because the feelings can feel very similar.

想放手一搏的冲动，和那种充满张力的正确行动，感觉上几乎一模一样。

The feeling to punt can feel very similar to dynamic quality in action.

我觉得，如果我一直跟着这些冲动走，长远来看并不会带来好的结果，因为我实在有太多突如其来的想法了。

And I I I do think that engaging in those impulse, at least for me all the time, would not equal great things over the long run, because I have too many too many spontaneous impulses.

所以，我只是想听听你对这个的看法。

So, yeah, just just wanted to get your thoughts on that.

在一款选项无限多、却只能选一个的游戏里，总会有那么一片让你觉得特别有吸引力的范围。

Just that that thought of, you know, in a game with limitless options and you can only choose one, there's always going to be a spectrum that you find appealing.

所以，我觉得关键在于控制住冲动，别一股脑儿全干了，也要学会分辨什么时候该相信自己，不去做那些你心里清楚可能有害的事。

So I guess reigning in the impulses and not blasting away or knowing when to trust yourself to not do something that you think could be detrimental or that you believe probably would be detrimental if you did go through with it.

是的。

Yeah.

这中间的分寸很难把握，所以保持对所有情绪的觉察才特别重要，因为人总是想同时做很多事情。

It's very fine line and and that's why the the the prioritization of being present with all your emotions is so so valuable because there's there's always a pull to do multiple things at at once.

不止一个选择对我都有吸引力，这本来就是人的天性。

More than one solution appeals to me, that's that's how humans operate.

这本来就是很自然的事。

That's that's just kind of what happens.

我想做这个，那个看着也挺酷的。

I I wanna do this one and this one looks kinda cool too.

这正是扑克牌的核心所在——当你有这种感受时，你到底会怎么做？

That's that's the crux of of everything in poker and where what are you gonna do when that's the experience you're having.

对吧？

Right?

你能接纳这种体验吗？能觉察、感受并接受那一刻涌上来的所有情绪？

Can you be with that experience, acknowledge all the emotions and feel them and accept them that come in that moment?

如果你能做到，你做出的决定通常都不会让你后悔。

If you do, you'll tend to make decisions, make choices that you're you're not gonna regret.

不管是选择更激进的打法，还是走稳妥常规的路线，都不重要，因为你清楚，这个决定是源于你当时真正想感受到的状态。

Whether it is going for the more spicy play or the more standardized normal routine play, it won't matter because you you'll know that you made that choice from a place where you felt how you wanted to feel when you made the decision.

但如果你不主动关注自己的情绪，那就不同了——无论你选哪个决定，哪怕是最安全的那个，你也会想：‘我本该那次冒险一把的’；如果你真去冒险了，又会说：‘唉，那步棋其实不该这么走。’

Now it's when you're not actively prioritizing being present with the emotions, that's when you'll start to no matter which decision you make, even if it's the safe one, you'll be like, yeah, I should have done I should have gone for it that time or if you if you go for it, you're like, oh, that that was that was not the best play.

即使赢了，你也会觉得：‘这次不过是侥幸罢了。’

Even if it works, it'd be like, I kinda got away with one there.