319 · 萨姆·盖尔：从铜矿坑到加密衍生品：交易优势如何演变

然后我再次与文尼合作，创建了一家名为Tregara Alpha Partners的交易公司。

And then I partnered with Vinny again and built a trading firm called Tregara Alpha Partners.

Tregara Alpha是一个能源套利系统，回顾我在NYMEX的日子，以及我对Globex系统和NYMEX系统基础设施的了解，我能够将一些关于裂解价差、脚本以及其他我在交易大厅曾做过的事情拼凑起来。

Trogara Alpha was an energy arbitrage system where looking back at my NYMEX days, and also what I knew about the infrastructure of the Globex system and NYMEX systems, I was able to kind of piece together some, some ARBs around crack spreads and scripts and all the other things I used to do on the trading floor.

因此，电子交易尤其是高频交易的本质演变是这样的。

And so how it evolved is the fundamental understanding of electronic trading and specifically high frequency trading is this.

这正是我们过去在交易场里所做的，只是速度更快，并且在多个市场中实现了规模化。

It's exactly what we used to do in the trading pits, just way faster and at scale across many markets.

于是，我把这个理念记在心里，开始从事高频交易，那时高频交易还以毫秒为单位，而非微秒或纳秒。

And so I took that thesis and put it into my head, and that's how I started doing some high frequency trading at a time when people were high frequency trading was expressed in milliseconds instead of microseconds and nanoseconds.

期间，我去了FINRA工作了几年，担任首席信息官。

In between, I went after this, I went to FINRA for a couple of years, became the CIO.

那也是一段有趣的经历，但可能不适合这个播客讲。

That was also an interesting journey, but maybe not for this podcast.

但可以说，这是一次关于监管、领导力和技术的深刻探索。

But suffice to say, was a really interesting deep dive into regulation, leadership, and technology.

我就说到这里。

And I'll leave it at that.

我离开FINRA是因为我依然有创业的冲动，我不想等到五十岁，甚至快五十岁时还是一名监管者。

And I left FINRA because I still had this entrepreneurial drive and I didn't want to wake up and be in my 50s or even in my late forties and be a regulator.

我比FINRA的大多数人更具创业精神，我只是想走出去，追求效率。

I wanted to I I was just much more entrepreneurial than most folks at, at at at FINRA should be, right, in terms of, I just I I wanted to go out and, be efficient.

我想走出去，去创造。

I wanted to go out and and and create.

所以，你某时决定从传统的华尔街产品转向这个被称为加密货币的可怕领域。

So at some point, you decided to transition from traditional Wall Street products to this, scary world called cryptocurrencies.

是的。

Yes.

离开FINRA后，我创建了一家名为Katana Financial的公司，后来它发展成了一家对冲基金。

So after FINRA, after FINRA, I created a firm called Katana Financial and which eventually became a hedge fund.

我决定亲自上手，自己编写了每一行代码，建立了一家高频交易公司，最终其交易量占VIX期货市场的约10%。

And I decided I'm gonna get my hands dirty, and I wrote every line of software myself and created a high frequency trading firm that which eventually accounted for about 10% of VIX futures.

2018年，由于与CME的关系以及认识那里的人等，我开始交易CME的以太坊和比特币期货，是2018年最早参与这些产品的做市商之一。

In 2018, due to relationship with CME and knowing all the people there, etcetera, started trading CME, Ethereum, and Bitcoin futures, one of the first market makers in those products in 2018.

突然间，我意识到加密货币这个东西的潜力，变得非常感兴趣。

And all of a sudden, the light the light bulb went off about this crypto thing, and I got very interested.

几年后的2021年，我说：好吧。

A couple of years later in 2021, I said, alright.

我要全身心投入加密货币领域。

I'm I'm gonna go I'm gonna go in I'm gonna go really into crypto.

我把资金退还给我们的有限合伙人，自筹资金创办了自己的自营交易公司，开始独立交易加密货币。

I returned money to our LPs and financed my own basically, bootstrapped my own prop trading firm and started trading crypto on my own.

所以

So

究竟是加密货币的什么特质，让你离开了那些你早已熟悉的传统市场？

What what what was it about what was it about crypto that would draw you away from, you know, the the regular markets which we're so accustomed to?

你知道，当像查理·芒格这样的人会说：不，不行。

You know, when you have people like Charlie Munger and others would say, oh, no.

你知道，比特币和加密货币比老鼠药还糟，全都是骗局。

You know, Bitcoin and crypto is worse than rat poison, and it's all a scam.

那为什么还要转投加密货币呢？

And it's like, why why why move over to crypto?

到底是什么让加密货币对你特别有吸引力？

What what is it about crypto that was especially attractive for you?

所以，有几件事让我在2023年底或2024年初彻底投入了。

So so a couple of things really made me take a the huge plunge in late late twenty three or early twenty four.

对吧？

Right?

那就是我彻底放手、不再回头的大转折。

This was the huge plunge where I just kinda gave gave it all up, and and I'm not looking back.

我坐下来想了想，我已经有成年孩子了。

And I sat down and I realized I have children who are I have adult children right now.

我意识到他们都已经二十多岁了。

And I realized they're in their twenties.

我说，他们的每一个朋友以及他们自己，都对虚拟支付非常适应。

And I said, every one of their friends and them are really, really comfortable with virtual payments.

他们从未成长在一个没有比特币或某种形式加密货币的世界里。

They've never grown up in a world that hasn't had Bitcoin or some some form of cryptocurrency.

同时，我对选举有一套理论：无论谁赢得选举，比特币都会受益。

At the same time, I had a thesis on the election that no matter who won the election, Bitcoin was gonna benefit.

第一，如果拜登赢了选举，进程不会那么快，但核心观点是，华盛顿的加里·根斯勒不受待见，而那些在竞选中投入数百万美元的加密游说团体，最终会设法让他下台。

One, if Biden won the election, it it wouldn't have it wouldn't have been as fast, but the whole idea was that, basically, in Washington, Gary Gensler was out of favor, and the crypto lobby that was pouring millions into the campaign would figure out a way to get him out.

但真正的理论是，特朗普会赢，这是在2024年初。

But the real thesis was that Trump wins, and this was early twenty four.

我当时想，如果特朗普赢了，那就毫无保留了。

And I'm like, if Trump wins, it's no holds barred.

那就是全面拥抱加密货币。

It's full on crypto.

然后我说，好吧。

Then I said, alright.

特朗普之后的未来五到十年，谁来做决策？

And who's gonna be making the decisions after Trump in the next five or ten years?

就是我孩子那个年纪的人。

People that are the age of my kids.

那些才是真正的决策者。

Those are the decision makers.

所以这是一场不进则退的时刻。

And so it was an evolve or die moment.

我转身了。

I turned around.

我在我所谓的‘科特兹时刻’卖掉了我的软件。

I sold my software in what I call my Cortez moment.

我把我的高频交易软件卖给了芝加哥的一家公司，从此再没回头。

I sold my high frequency software to a firm in Chicago, and I haven't looked back since.

我称之为科特兹，是因为当科特兹抵达新大陆时，他给部下下达的第一道命令就是烧掉船只。

And I refer to it as Cortez because when Cortez came to the new world, the first order that he gave to his men was burn the boats.

所以这表明已经没有回头路了。

So there's signifying there's no way back.

是的。

Mhmm.

那么你在交易中具体涉足了加密货币和去中心化金融的哪些方面？

So what aspects of of crypto and in DeFi did you get into specifically in your trading?

你有没有参与流动性池、收益耕作、永续合约、金库这类东西？

Did you get into the liquidity pools, yield farming, perps, vaults, that kind of thing?

对。

Yes.

永续合约、金库，特别是凸性策略。

Perps perps, vaults, specifically convexity.

加密货币的期权市场蕴含着非常丰富的机遇，直到今天依然如此。

The options market is very, very rich in opportunity in crypto and still is even to this day.

这一观点的另一部分是，机构资本将涌入这一领域。

And the other part of the thesis was that institutional capital is going to be coming into the space.

现在是时候引入更多机构风格的资本管理，而不是典型的加密对冲基金模式了。

And it's kind of time for it's kind of time to have some more more institutional style management of capital rather than typical in the typical crypto hedge fund.

如果你在2018年投资了典型的加密对冲基金，你的回报会增长230%。

If you invested in typical crypto hedge fund in 2018, you'd be up 230%.

如果你在2018年投资了比特币，你现在会获得大约400%的回报。

If you invested in Bitcoin in 2018, you'd be up about well now about 400%.

但对冲基金的表现仍然严重落后于市场。

But still, there's a massive underperformance by hedge funds.

原因在于，它们会像市场一样经历繁荣与萧条的周期：某一年上涨300%，下一年却下跌80%。

The reason why is they go through these boom and bust cycles much like the market does, where they're up three hundred percent one year and down 80% the next year.

而机构投资者厌恶这种回报模式。

And institutions hate that sort of return profile.

我想要开发一种更符合机构需求的产品，提供更低调、更稳定的收益流。

And I what I wanted to do was develop a product that caters more to institutions with a more discreet and consistent return stream.

对。

Mhmm.

你提到了‘凸性’这个词，它是应用于期权的。

You mentioned the word convexity as it applies to options.

能为我们解释一下这是什么意思吗？

What describe for us what does that mean?

这个词听起来挺复杂的。

That's complicated sounding word.

它到底是什么意思？普通交易者该如何利用这一点？他们又该寻找什么？

What does that mean, and how can the average trader potentially take advantage of this, or what what would they even look for?

这一切到底意味着什么？

What what does it all that mean?

凸性指的是期权价格随标的资产价格变动的表现。

So convexity is how option price performs as the underlying price moves.

例如，为了获得我所说的加密货币的右尾凸性，你应当买入一些价外期权，这些期权能带来所谓的高伽马值。

So for example, to avail yourself of what I call right tail convexity in crypto, you wanna buy some out of the money some out of the money options, which give you what's called a high amount of gamma.

德尔塔是期权价格相对于标的资产价格的变化率，而伽马则是德尔塔的变化率。

Gamma is the delta is the rate of change of the options price in comparison to the underlying, whereas gamma is the rate of change of delta.

所以在当前这种高波动性的情况下，你希望持有伽马。

And so you want to own gamma in high volatility situations like we have right now.

你希望成为伽马的持有者，因为当市场朝任一方向剧烈变动时——无论是价格分布右侧的大幅上涨，还是左侧的大幅下跌——如果你持有的是高伽马、高凸性的期权，其价格会以加速的方式上涨。

You want to be an owner of gamma because what happens is as markets move one way or the other, if you have a sharp move on the right side of the price scale, which is up, or the left side of the price distribution scale, which is down, If you have those sharp moves, what happens is the price of the option of a high gamma option, which is high in convexity, the price increases at an increasing rate.

因此，你获得了这种内置在期权中的自然杠杆效应，这就是为什么你如果看CNBC，会看到有人说：‘我投资了100美元在这个期权上，结果赚了1万美元。’

So you get this natural gearing or leverage effect, that's built into the option, which is how you see you know, if you watch CNBC, you see people, oh, I invested a $100 in this option, and I made $10,000.

这就是它发生的原因。

That's how that happens.

你是如何注意到加密货币市场中这类期权与传统市场之间的差异的？

How did you notice the, the differences in these type of options in the crypto market versus the traditional markets?

比如，与你熟悉的传统市场相比，这些期权的定价偏差有多大？

Like, how much mispricing was there in these options compared to what you were used to in the traditional markets?

当然。

Sure.

衡量定价偏差其实有几种不同的方式。

So there's there's a couple of there's a couple of ways that you can you can consider mispricing.

对吧？

Right?

经典的定价偏差是将期权价格与布莱克-斯科尔斯公式进行比较。

So the classic mispricing is you compare the price of the option to the Black Scholes formula.

如果两者不一致，存在所谓的套利空间，那么期权要么太便宜，要么太贵。

And if it's not aligned with it, if it's there's a quote, unquote arbitrage there, then the options either cheap or expensive.

我认为加密期权存在定价偏差，因为做市商未能认识到加密资产价格分布中我所说的那种显著的右尾风险，这在一定程度上将价格分布的中心向右推移。

I viewed crypto options as being mispriced because of market makers failing to recognize the the inherent big fat right tail, as I call it, of the price distribution in crypto, which kind of moves the center of the price distribution a little bit to the right.

这导致看涨期权相对便宜。

And what that does is it essentially makes upside options relatively cheap.

此外，加密市场的动态特性表明，特别是对比特币而言，比特币本身不产生收益。

In addition, the dynamics in the crypto markets are such that in Bitcoin in particular, Bitcoin does not generate a native yield.

你可以质押以太坊并获得收益。

You can stake Ethereum and get a yield.

你可以质押Solana并获得收益。

You can stake Solana and get a yield.

比特币不会。

Bitcoin doesn't.

所以，如果你持有比特币，想要获得收益，只能通过期权市场，比如执行备兑看涨策略。

So if you hold Bitcoin, the only way that you're gonna get yield in using options markets, for example, is you do a call overriding program.

这在历史上抑制了加密货币的上行波动性，从而在市场低迷时为你提供了以低价买入波动率的机会。

And and so what this has done historically, it's dampened upside volatility in crypto, which gives you an opportunity to to buy vol cheap when markets are down.

因此，我立刻意识到了这些机会，同时也要看到，这是一款所谓的超高波动性资产。

And so I kind of instantly recognize the opportunities there, as well as, look, this is a what's called a hyper volatile asset.

对吧？

Right?

目前比特币的波动率历史处于低位，我们当前的波动率交易在50%左右。

Bitcoin volatility is historically low right now, and we're trading at a 50% volatility rate.

对吧？

Right?

当初刚出现时，隐含波动率高达90%到100%。

First When came in, it was 90%, 100% implied volatility.

当你拥有这种波动率特征的期权时，即使波动率只有50%，价差也相对宽广，曲线上的定价错误有可能发生。

When you have options that have that sort of vol profile, even at 50%, the spreads are relatively wide, there's the ability for mispricing to happen on the curve.

所谓的凸性微笑，有时会倒挂，经常出现反向市场，换句话说，我称之为波动率或凸性正在打折。

The convexity smile, if you will, sometimes goes into back, it frequently goes into a backwardation, where essentially, what I call it is volatility or convexity is on sale.

因此，你可以以几乎比短期更便宜的价格买入远期合约。

So you can buy further out on the calendar almost cheaper than you can buy near term.

许多密切关注加密货币的人提出的一个大问题是：为什么在有史以来最支持加密货币的政府领导下，出台了大量亲加密货币的监管措施，Genius法案也已通过，所有利好因素齐备，市场却在重大下跌前突然走弱？

The big question that many people who follow crypto closely, have is how is it that with the most pro crypto administration ever with lots of pro crypto regulation and the passing of the Genius Act and you have all these tailwinds, you think the best possible environment gone down recently ahead of, you know, big plunge.

这让我想起我在《市场奇才》一书中读到过的一段话。

And this reminds me of a of a something I read in the market wizard's book.

当一个资产类别或一只股票在利好消息公布后反而下跌时，这是一个危险信号。

When an asset class or a stock goes down on good news, it's a red flag.

所以我很好奇，想听听你的看法：这种情况为什么会发生？

And so I'm curious to get your comment on how has this happened.

我的意思是，既然宏观环境如此有利，为什么这个市场反而下跌了？

I mean, why why has this market declined given the favorable backdrop?

当然。

Sure.

正如你所能想象的，这一直是Monarq内部以及加密社区热议的话题。

So as you can imagine, this has been quite the topic of conversation both internally at Monarq, but also within the crypto community.

就在几个月前，我们还在新加坡，那时比特币的价格是12600美元。

I mean, it was just a couple of months ago we were in Singapore and and Bitcoin was trading one twenty six.

自那以后，发生了一些变化。

And so a couple of things have happened since then.

对吧？

Right?

我以前常说，现在是投资加密货币的好时机，因为我们从未像现在这样拥有如此强劲的经济和监管顺风。

So my my saying used to be, it's a great time to be investing in crypto because we've never had we've never had the the economic and regulatory tailwinds that we do now.

但在过去几个月里，这种情况发生了一些变化，再加上加密市场内外发生的一些外部事件。

Well, that's changed a little bit in the past in the past couple of months, combined with some exogenous events that happened both inside and outside of the crypto markets.

我们在10月10日经历了一次去杠杆事件，我们称之为‘1010’，当天有200亿美元的加密资产被清算，这严重打击了许多做市商。

We had a deleveraging event on October 10, we call it ten ten, when $20,000,000,000 of crypto got liquidated in a single day, and that hurt a lot of market makers.

这损害了订单簿的流动性。

It hurt order book liquidity.

为了让你有个量级上的概念，这次清算规模是FTX事件单日清算规模的十倍。

And it just to give you just to give you an order of magnitude context here, this was 10 times larger than the liquidation that happened around FTX in one day.

在十月整个月里，发生了价值400亿美元的加密货币清算。

In that during the month of of October, there was $40,000,000,000 of crypto liquidations that occurred.

现在，对于那些不了解什么是清算的听众来说，这与传统市场不同，在传统市场中，你会收到追加保证金的通知，然后可以存入资金来满足保证金要求；而在加密货币市场中，如果你使用了杠杆，你就知道自己的清算价格。

Now crypto liquidations, for those of your listeners that that don't know what that is, is unlike traditional markets where you get, like, a margin call and then you can put money up to meet a margin call, crypto has if you're on leverage in crypto, you will receive a you'll you know what your leg liquidation price is.

如果你没有在事前主动向账户追加保证金，也就是说，在清算发生之前不采取行动，那么你就会在那个价格被强制平仓。

And if you don't put margin into your account on an active basis, in other words, like, right now before it happens, you will get liquidated at that price.

因此，许多交易员实际上把清算价格当作止损点。

So a lot of traders actually use liquidation prices as stops.

他们会选择离场，或者赌一把，等等。

They just they'll they'll they'll get out, or they'll roll the dice, etcetera.

所以，10月10日事件发生了。

So ten ten happens.

订单簿几乎被摧毁了。

Order books are kind of decimated.

与此同时，我们整个行业原本期待《清晰法案》在九月通过。

At the same time, we, as an industry, were expecting the Clarity Act to be passed in September.

《天才法案》通过了，而《天才法案》在很多方面都非常出色，我们稍后可以详细讨论。

The Genius Act got passed, and the Genius Act is genius for a whole number of reasons that we can go into later.

所以我们原本期待《清晰法案》，该法案不仅为监管提供了明确性，还允许银行等机构赚取利息，以及为去中心化金融（DeFi）提供了各种其他规定。

And so we were expecting the CLARITY Act, and the CLARITY Act gives clarity to regulation as well as providing the ability for banks, etc, to earn and stablecoins to earn interest, different provisions around DeFi.

这是一项真正具有前瞻性和里程碑意义的立法，整个行业从2024年11月唐纳德·特朗普当选起就一直期待它落地。

And it really is progressive and landmark legislation that the industry was really counting on happening as far back as the election of Donald Trump in November 2024.

那么，你会说《清晰法案》是最重要的立法吗？尽管过去也有一些支持加密货币的举措？

So would you say that this this Clarity Act was the most important piece of legislation even though you had some, stuff going on in the past that was all supportive of crypto?

这项立法是否是一个关键性的转折点，许多机构会根据它的通过与否来决定是否入场？

Was this legislation kind of a key, legislation where many institutions would decide yes or no based on the passage of this.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为机构们早就期待这项法案已经通过了，因为机构们究竟想要什么？

I think institutions were counting on this being passed already because, again, institutions, what do they want?

他们想要明确性。

They want clarity.

他们不喜欢风险。

They don't like risk.

因此，他们希望确保，比如当我投资加密衍生品时，我能知道监管机构是谁。

And so they want the ability to ensure that, hey, if I'm investing in crypto derivatives, for example, I want to know who the regulator is.

是证交会吗？

Is it the SEC?

是商品期货交易委员会吗？

Is it the CFTC?

还是其他人？

Is it somebody else?

我想知道这样做是被允许的。

I wanna know that it's okay for me to do that.

所以这件事还没发生。

And so this hasn't come yet.

它仍然被反复推来推去。

It's still kind of being battered around.

而它现在对伊恩来说，几乎变成了一场对特朗普政府推动立法及其自身议程能力的公投，而不仅仅是关于加密货币。

And what it's become, Ian, is it's almost become this referendum on the Trump administration's ability to push legislation and its own agenda outside of crypto forward.

所以你想一想，我称之为无关事件的云团，但这些事件单独来看其实都不算重大，可当它们全部叠加在一起时，就共同促成了最近这次加密货币抛售，同时也加剧了市场的巨大不确定性以及加密货币的价格走势。

So think about, you know, think about things I I call this the orthogonal cloud of events, But they all, you know, any one of these events individually isn't really material, but all taken together kind of contributed to this latest crypto sell off, but it's also contributing to this big cloud of uncertainty and the price action of crypto.

让你知道一下，所有选举带来的溢价，以及选举以来我们获得的所有涨幅，都消失了。

Just so you know, all of the election premium, all the gains we've had since the election, gone.

原因就在这里。

And here's why.

玛乔丽·泰勒·格林公布了 Epstein 文件，这跟加密货币有什么关系？

Marjorie Taylor Greene with the Epstein files, what does that have to do with crypto?

对吧？

Right?

安德鲁王子，这和加密货币有什么关系？

Prince Andrew, what does that have to do with crypto?

你可以继续往下看，这一长串事情都列出来了。

And and you can go down you can go go go down this this whole list of things.

但事实上，市场想说的是：嘿。

But in reality, what what the market is saying is, hey.

听好了。

Listen.

我们不确定这个政府能否推动其议程。

We're not certain that this administration is going to be able to push forward its agenda.

他们在中期选举中会输。

They're going to lose the midterms.

去看看Polymarket。

Look on polymarket.

他们会输掉中期选举，而民主党也明确发出信号，他们不喜欢加密货币。

They're going to lose the midterms, and the Democrats are signaling very, very clearly that they don't like crypto.

他们正在针对加密货币，还质疑为什么在特朗普政府上台后，所有这些加密执法案件都被撤销了？

They're coming after crypto, and they're questioning things like, well, why are all these crypto enforcement cases dropped when you got when when when the when the Trump administration, took power?

所以目前市场上存在大量不确定性，而这种不确定性在很大程度上已经反映在了市场当前的表现中。

So there's a lot of uncertainty in the market right now, and it's and a lot a lot of a a lot of a lot of this uncertainty is being priced in to the to what you see going on in the market.

是的。

So Uh-huh.

所以，即使有了比特币ETF、以太坊ETF以及相关期权，这本身还不足以让机构说：嘿。

So so even with the availability of Bitcoin ETFs, Ethereum ETFs, and so forth and options on those, That by itself is not enough for institutions to say, hey.

我们直接去买IBIT，或者买卖IBIT的期权吧。

Let's just go buy, IBIT or or, you know, sell or buy some options on IBIT.

它就在那里。

It's right there.

它是一个ETF。

It's an ETF.

它已经获得批准了。

It's been approved.

这很简单。

It's easy.

我们为什么需要这个清晰法案？

Why do we need this clarity act?

我们就直接买入ETF吧。

Let's just go buy the ETF.

哦，不。

Oh, no.

ETF方面，我们已经经历了巨额资金流出。

The ETFs are well, we've had massive outflows on the ETFs.

对吧？

Right?

巨额资金流出。

Massive outflows.

但为什么会这样呢？

Why why is that, though?

是的

Mhmm.

所以目前在传统金融领域的交易团队中，一个重要的交易策略是：我会买入IBITETF，同时卖出CME期货，因为这里存在一个现金与远期基差交易。

So part of what so so part of a a big trade that goes on right now specifically in TradFi pod shops is I'll buy the IBIT ETF, and I will sell CME futures because there's a there's a cash and carrier basis trade that goes on there.

这种交易已经持续了好几年，而这个基差已经从大约17%下降到了5%。

And that's been happening for several years, and that that basis trade has collapsed from about 17% to 5%.

这是导致近期2月5日崩盘的众多因素之一，我曾发表过一篇论文，详细分析了这次崩盘。

This was a contributing factor to one of the contributing factors, and I published a paper dissecting the the the recent crash on February 5.

这是导致近期加密货币下跌的因素之一。

This is one of the factors contributing to the to the recent decline in crypto.

所以你看到的是，当市场开始下跌时，那些做空伽马的交易商被迫抛售。

So what you saw is as the market started moving down, people dealers who were short gamma were forced to sell.

这是一场伽马风暴。

It was a gamma storm.

他们被迫抛售一家在香港的对冲基金，该基金通过日元套利交易融资，而这一交易现在正在平仓。

They were forced to sell a hedge fund in Hong Kong, which had levered itself funded by the Japanese yen carry trade, which is unwinding.

他们杠杆押注了两样东西。

They levered themselves into two things.

IBIT期权和白银，结果都不理想。

IBIT options and and silver, both of which ended poorly.

所有这些在一周内接连爆发。

And so all of this kind of cascaded within a week.

同时，如果你在这些当铺里持有多头头寸，做的是现金与期货的基差交易——即多头IBIT、空头CME期货，你的经理或风控人员就会拍你肩膀说：赶紧平仓。

And at the same time, if you were long at one of these pawn shops and you had this you you were long the the the cash and carry or the basis trade where your long IBIT and your short CME futures, your manager, your risk manager tapped you on the shoulder and said, get out.

你必须退出。

You gotta you gotta you gotta exit.

我们在数日内目睹了IBITETF的连锁赎回潮。

We saw cascading redemption cascading redemptions in the in the IBIT ETF over the course of days.

CME的基差实际上因这次平仓飙升至9%。

The CME, actually, the CME basis actually went soar to 9% based on that unwind.

为什么？

Why?

因为人们在卖出IBIT，同时平掉他们持有的IBIT多头头寸，并买入CME期货，这人为地推高了基差交易。

Because people were selling IBIT and buying back selling the IBIT that they were long and buying back the CME futures, which pushed that basis trade out artificially.

因此，那里确实存在一些不确定性，但关于机构参与和机构采用，我想说的是。

And so there's a little bit there, you know, there's a little bit of a cloud of uncertainty there, but here's what I will say regarding institutional participation and institutional adoption.

IBIT期权的未平仓合约量仍然高于Derabit，后者是一家加密原生期权交易所。

IBIT options open interest is still higher than that of Derabit, which is, an options an the crypto native options exchange.

Derabit的未平仓合约量加上IBIT的未平仓合约量并没有减少。

The Derabit open interest plus IBIT open interest hasn't shrunk.

换句话说，IBIT并没有从Derabit那里抢走市场份额。

In other words, IBIT did not take away market share from Derabit.

IBIT的未平仓合约量完全是新增的。

IBIT open interest is all new.

这是一个更大的市场。

It's a larger pie.

因此，机构仍在交易期权。

So institutions are still trading options.

他们仍在交易ETF。

They're still trading the ETF.

人们仍在投资。

People are still investing.

大型银行目前在其业务中已布局区块链和稳定币项目。

Major banks have blockchain and stablecoin, projects on their books right now.

因此，机构采用仍然存在。

So institutional adoption is still there.

代币化，正如我确信你看到的关于德克萨斯证券交易所24/7链上交易的新闻，可能是我们接下来在加密市场中看到的机构参与的下一波浪潮。

Tokenization, as I'm sure you saw some of the headlines around Texas stock exchange, twenty four seven on chain trading, tokenization is probably gonna be the next wave of what we're seeing in the crypto market in terms of institutional participation.

但从投机角度来看，很多人在那两次10%和25%的下跌中遭受了损失。

But lot of people from a speculative standpoint got hurt in both of those ten ten and two five declines.

说到代币化，我注意到标普500、特斯拉和英伟达的代币现在可以通过加密交易所购买，但它们的市值很小，只有数千万美元。

So speaking of tokenization, I noticed that the S and P five hundred and Tesla and Nvidia are available to purchase through the crypto exchanges, but their market cap is quite small, you know, in the tens of millions of dollars.

但我发现一个资产表现出非常强劲且稳定的增长，而且似乎是目前最大的现实世界资产，那就是黄金，仅在两只基金中就达到了50亿美元。

But one asset that I've noticed that have seen very strong steady growth and is the largest seems to be the largest real world asset is gold now at $5,000,000,000 in just two two funds.

所以问题是，最近有很多关于货币贬值交易的讨论，而比特币也被归入其中，与黄金一起被视为一种不会通胀、对抗美元贬值的保护资产。

And so question is that there's been a lot of talk about the debasement trade, and then Bitcoin was put into that with gold, gold and Bitcoin considered, you know, because they don't inflate, protection against a dollar decline and so forth.

但如今，人们可以在交易所购买代币化的黄金，并将其发送到世界任何地方，你认为黄金长期以来难以随身携带的主要缺点，是否因为代币化而被消除了？

But yet, now that, people can buy tokenized gold on the exchange and then send it to wherever they want in the world, What do you think about has, gold's major, downside, that which you can't easily carry with you, been eliminated because we can tokenize it?

因此，人们就没有那么迫切需要转向比特币了，因为你看——

And then, therefore, there's less of an urgency to get into Bitcoin because, like, hey.

我已经有链上的黄金了。

I got my I got my gold here on chain.

这是个很好的问题。

That's a great question.

对此我想说的是——

And what I would say to that is is this.

关于黄金，我不确定，你知道，我职业生涯初期就是做黄金交易的。

Uncertain about gold, as you know, I started my career as a gold trader.

黄金确实有其优势，你不能否认它的表现，但我想说的是，在过去五年里，表现最好的资产并不是黄金。

The the thing the thing about gold and you can't you can't deny gold's performance, but what I would say is over the past five years, the highest performing asset is not gold.

是比特币和以太坊。

It's Bitcoin and Ethereum.

在过去五年里，这两者的表现都超过了其他资产。

Those those two over the last five years have outperformed.

在过去一年、两年里，是的，我承认这一点。

Over the last year, last two years, yes, I'll give it to you.

黄金的表现远远超过了比特币。

Gold gold gold has trounced Bitcoin.

在过去十年里，从未有其他资产能像比特币这样取得如此高的回报。

The the over the last ten years, there's never been another asset that's had the returns that Bitcoin has had.

因此，在历史上，它是回报率最高的资产。

So in in history, it's been the highest returning asset.

话虽如此，作为一名前黄金交易员，我可以告诉你的是：

Now that being said, as a former gold trader myself, what I can tell you is this.

生产商总能找到更多的黄金来出售。

Producers always seem to be able to find more gold to sell.

所以如果我们认为黄金的供应是固定的，那其实并不是。

So if we're thinking that gold is is fixed in in in supply, it's not.

总会有更多的黄金以某种方式被拿出来出售。

There's always more gold somewhere somehow to sell.

关于黄金代币化的便携性问题，确实存在。

The portability problem in terms of tokenizing gold, yes.

我明白你确实解决了这个问题，但你也创造了一种近乎无限的纸上黄金供应。

I get you do you do solve it, but you also create this you know, you're you're creating home almost an infinite supply of gold on paper.

我想说的另一点是，比特币仍然是一个相对年轻的资产。

The other thing I would say is Bitcoin is still still relatively young asset.

加密货币是一个年轻的资产类别。

Crypto is a young asset class.

如果你看看的话，我并不一定知道比特币，让我们这么说吧。

If you look at you I I don't necessarily know that Bitcoin well, let's put it this way.

由于我刚才提到的外部因素，比特币在过去几个月里的表现并没有达到预期。

Bitcoin has not performed the way that it was supposed to perform in the past several months due to the exogenous factors that I just mentioned.

话虽如此，比特币目前的市值约为2.1万亿美元，而黄金的市值约为30万亿美元。

That being said, Bitcoin has a market cap of about 2,100,000,000,000 right now, and gold market cap is about $30,000,000,000,000.

那么，比特币是否找到了某种价值储存的地位？

So does Bitcoin find some sort of value store status?

这占黄金市值的百分比是多少？

And what what percentage of gold's market cap would that be?

会是4%吗？

Is it gonna be 4%?

会是30万亿美元中的4万亿美元吗？

Is it gonna be or is it gonna be 4,000,000,000,000 out of 30,000,000,000,000?

会是5万亿美元吗？

Is it gonna be 5,000,000,000,000?

我们还不知道。

We don't know.

但这是个很好的问题。

But great question.

显然，我希望比特币能如预期般表现。

Obviously, I would like to see Bitcoin perform as it is supposed to.

但它并没有。

It is not.

在这些大规模的市场抛售中，人们常常会查看反向指标，看看情况如何。

Often in these huge market flushes, people look at contrary indicators to see, okay.

这是不是底部？

Is this a bottom?

这是否是一个极端水平，就像在金融危机期间，《时代》杂志封面文章宣称大萧条来临，或者关于油价暴跌的著名封面报道那样。

Is this an extreme, you know, level sort of akin to, you're in the great financial crisis, front cover articles on, Time magazine saying the end is, you know, great depression era or articles about, you know, oil being down there, you know, these famous contrary articles on front covers.

那么，你通常会关注哪些指标，来判断市场是否处于极端底部？

So do you see like, where do you look for and what indicators do you look at to see indications of extreme like, an extreme bottom?

最近，比特币或加密货币的整体恐惧与贪婪指数降至我认为低于10的水平。

The fear of greed index for Bitcoin recently or for crypto in general hit, I think, below 10 recently.

这几乎是历史最低点。

It was like an all time low.

还有其他像五五这样的指标吗？

Any other indicators like five five.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

那么，你都会关注哪些方面呢？比如杂志文章或者期权交易？

So was there what what are some of the things that you look at, whether, whether it's magazine articles or in the options trading?

我们在Monarq收集大量数据。

We collect a lot of data at Monarq.

我每天都会发布一份每日简报。

I publish a daily call every day.

我们还大量使用人工智能。

We use a lot of AI as well.

我想说的是这一点。

And what I will say is this.

由于加密货币仍然是一个年轻的市场、年轻的投资资产类别，而比特币也相对年轻，它一直被这些所谓的四年周期所定义。

So as crypto is still a young market young a young asset, a young asset class, and Bitcoin is also young, it's been defined by these, quote, unquote, four year cycles.

但更具有决定性的是这些所谓的生存性事件——我用引号强调‘生存性’——在加密货币发展历程中发生的重大事件，尤其是FTX和Luna的崩盘。

But what's been more defining have been these kind of existential, and I say existential with air quotes, these existential events that have happened over crypto's lifetime, notably FTX, Luna.

我们，你知道的，我们可以继续列举下去。

We, you know, we we can go on.

而每一次事件似乎都呈现出一种相似的模式，我们现在正目睹这种模式再次发生。

And each one of them, there seems to be a similar pattern that's emerging that we're seeing right now happening.

正如你提到的，恐惧与贪婪指数会急剧下滑。

And that is, as you mentioned, fear and greed index, absolutely craters.

每个人都预测比特币会走向终结。

Everybody predicts the end of Bitcoin.

现在有多少文章在谈论比特币会归零？

How many articles are out there right now talking about Bitcoin going to zero?

这样的文章有很多。

There are a lot.

我们来看未平仓合约。

We look at open interest.

目前衍生品的未平仓合约处于历史最低水平之一。

Open interest is at some of the lowest levels on in terms of derivatives right now, at some of the lowest levels we've seen.

然而，IBITETF仍然是历史上最成功的ETF发行。

And yet still, the IBIT ETF is still one of the most is the most successful ETF launch in history.

我已经提到过恐惧与贪婪指数。

I already mentioned fear and greed.

你还可以看看永续合约交易所上的资金费率。

You can also look at what we call funding rates on the perpetual exchanges.

目前资金费率是正的。

Funding rates are positive right now.

它们是正的。

They're positive.

这基本上表明市场相对健康。

So that's basically telling you market is relatively healthy.

卖方并没有你想象的那么多，因为正向资金费率实际上是在付钱给做空者让他们保持做空。

There aren't as many sellers as you think there are because they're essentially, a positive funding rate pays short pays people to be short.

负向资金费率则是付钱给做多者。

A negative funding rate pays people to be long.

但其他人会不会反驳说，资金费率为正说明系统中仍然存在过度杠杆，我们必须彻底清理所有这些杠杆和交易者，才能最终触底？

But wouldn't the the other people would counter and say, oh, well, because the funding rate is positive, that shows there's still excess, leverage in the system, and we have to really wash all of that out and flush out all those traders to finally get to the final bottom.

你认为

What are

对此有什么看法？

your thoughts on that?

我的回应是，我认为在过去几个月里，我们已经看到了相当多的杠杆被清理。

And my, yeah, my response to that is I think we've seen quite a bit of flushing out of leverage happening over the past couple of months.

我们目前仍在看到这一过程持续发生。

We're still seeing it happen.

市场正在横盘整理。

The market is going sideways.

它正在努力找到自己的立足点。

It's really trying to find its footing.

我认为伯恩斯坦发布了一份报告，这一点很有趣，我也在我的比特币崩盘报告中提到了这一点，称这是比特币有史以来最弱的熊市观点。

I think it's interesting that Bernstein came out and had a and published a note, which I also included in my Bitcoin crash note about this being the weakest bear market case ever for Bitcoin.

其中的关键点之一是，这里没有任何结构性触发因素，对吧？

And key points there were, number one, there are no structural triggers here, right?

与过去的熊市不同，这里没有系统性崩溃、隐藏的杠杆清算或连锁破产，对吧？

So unlike past bear markets, there are no systematic collapses, hidden leverage unwinds, or cascading bankruptcies, right?

完全没有。

None.

其中并没有提到这些情况。

There's nothing in there about that.

第二，我们之前讨论过的黄金背离，更多是由流动性驱动，而非失败所致。

Two, the gold divergence that we spoke about is driven more by liquidity and not failure.

第三，正如我之前提到的，机构一致性依然保持。

Three, institutional alignment is intact, as I mentioned before.

强制抛售的风险是可控的。

Forced selling is risk contained.

因此，市场上还流传着一种说法，认为像MicroStrategy或Bit Miner这样的公司会因强制抛售而陷入困境。

So there's also kind of this narrative that's floating around about forced selling coming out of stocks like micro strategy or bit miner.

但这是一个错误的叙事。

And that's actually a false narrative.

迈克尔·萨勒已经竭尽全力证明它们会挺过去。

And Michael Sailor has gone through extraordinary lengths to prove that that they'll be okay.

即使比特币跌到8000美元，它们也会没事。

Even if Bitcoin hits $8,000, they'll be okay.

它们手头有足够的现金。

There's plenty of cash on hand.

它们已经预留了现金。

They put cash aside.

它们有足够的资本来偿还优先股义务。

They've got plenty of capital to pay off their preferred stock obligations.

最后，尽管说了这么多，我们仍然处于66,000美元的高位，高于之前的纪录，而且伯恩斯坦维持其预测，我也同意他们对比特币15万美元的预测。

And finally, with all this being said, we're still sitting at $66,000 above previous records, and they're maintaining Bernstein is maintaining, and I would agree with their $150,000 Bitcoin forecast.

哦，什么时候？

Oh, by by when?

这个预测是什么时候？

When when is that forecast?

指的是哪一年底？

By what end of what year?

他们说的是哪一年？

By '20 what did they say?

他们说是2033年。

'20 they they say 2033.

我觉得这会比那快得多。

I'm saying it's gonna come way quicker than that.

哦，明白了。

Oh, okay.

嗯，那离现在还有很多年。

Well, that's that's many years from now.

那确实是很多年。

That is that is many years.

但我认为，到今年年底，你会看到比特币价格突破10万美元。

But I I'm I may I maintain I still believe by the end of this year, you'll see north of a $100,000.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

好的。

Okay.

所以我听说过一些人谈论DATs，也就是数字资产金库。

So I've heard people talk about DATs, otherwise called digital asset treasuries.

什么是DATs？为什么投资者应该考虑它们，而不是直接购买比特币ETF？

What are DATs, and why should an investor even consider them instead of just buying the Bitcoin ETF?

DATs是一个非常好的想法。

So DATs were a really, really great idea.

DAT是一种数字资产 treasury 工具，即DAT。

DAT is a digital asset treasury vehicle, DAT.

这个想法是，这些公司进来后，会收购一家空壳公司或与另一家公司合并，从投资者那里筹集资金，然后购买代币——比特币、以太坊、索拉纳等，将代币纳入公司金库，并利用这些代币产生收益或收入，同时获得代币的增值。

And the idea was that these companies come in and they would buy a shell company or merge with another company and raise capital from investors and then buy a token, Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana, others, buy a token and put it into the corporate treasury and then use that token to generate yield or generate income and also get appreciation from token.

我们最初所谓的DAT 1.0理念，大致遵循了迈克尔·塞勒在MicroStrategy的做法，也就是他们所说的‘飞轮效应’。

And the initial what we call DAT one point zero thesis was kind of following loosely what Michael Saylor was doing at micro strategy, which was this, what they called the flywheel like this.

我们有一个所谓的‘平价二次发行注册’，即ATM二次发行注册，目前处于激活并随时可执行的状态。

We have a we we we have what's called an ATM secondary, at the money secondary shelf shelf registration, which is active and ready to go.

随着底层代币比特币价格上涨，我们所持比特币的净资产价值也将随之上升。

As the underlying token Bitcoin goes higher, then the net asset value of, you know, of the Bitcoin that we hold is going to go higher.

随着净资产价值上升，股价也会上涨。

And as the net asset value goes higher, the stock goes higher.

我们会通过ATM出售股票，然后用所得资金购买更多比特币。

We'll sell stock with the ATM and then buy more Bitcoin.

价格持续上涨，我们就持续这样操作。

And it keeps on going higher, we keep on doing that.

这一切都建立在你获得一个倍数的基础上，也就是他们所说的NAV倍数。

And this is all predicated on you getting a multiple, what they call MNAV, a multiple of NAV.

当时，许多这类资产负债表工具推出的NAV倍数是2、3、4。

And at the time, a lot of these, treasury vehicles came out with MNAV of 02/03, four.

作为一名场内套利交易员，我清楚地意识到，这纯粹就是套利陷阱，对吧？

And it was really plain to me as a floor, as an arbitrage trader, that that was just, you know, that's just arbitrage bait, right?

等等。

Wait.

让我再确认一下。

Let me let me get this straight.

你现在的股价是净资产价值的三倍。

You're trading at three times your net asset value.

让我仔细想想这一点。

Let me think about that for a second.

伊恩，真正的问题是，这些公司仓促推出，由从未运营过上市公司的人员发起和管理。

And and the issue really, Ian, is that these companies were launched very hastily, and they were launched by people and run by people who'd never run a publicly traded company before.

他们的商业计划本质上是市场持续上涨，所以我们不断卖出股票并买入更多代币。

Their business plan was essentially the market keeps going up, so we'll keep selling stock and buying more tokens.

而正如我们都知道的，市场也会下跌。

And as we both know, markets go down.

所以现在，许多这些股票的交易价格远低于其净资产值。

So right now, a lot of these lot of these stocks are trading far below their NAV.

为什么？

Why?

因为他们没有考虑到我所说的DAT 2.0。

Because they didn't think about they didn't think about what I call DAT two point o.

DAT 2.0是指像一家有经验的上市公司那样运营上市公司，你的唯一指标不是MNAV。

DAT two point o is actually running a publicly traded company like a publicly traded company with some experience, and your sole metric is not an MNAV.

你的唯一指标是如何增加每股的代币数量。

Your sole metric is how you want to increase the number of tokens per share.

那么，你该如何做到这一点呢？

So how do you do that?

我们可以通过几种方式来实现这一点。

Well, we do that a couple of ways.

我们可以持有现金，汤姆·李在BitMine对此有非常清晰的阐述。

We can either have cash on hand, and Tom Lee at bit mine actually articulates this very well.

当有人想以低于净资产的价值出售股份时，我们可以用现金回购股份。

We can have cash on hand to buy shares back if people want to sell them below NAV.

同时，如果我们股价高于净资产值，市场愿意出高于净资产的价格时，我们就卖出股票以筹集现金，购买更多代币。

And at the same time, if we go above NAV, if the market gives us more than NAV, that's when we'll sell stock to raise cash and buy more tokens.

与此同时，我们会将我们的代币投入生息项目，让它们发挥作用，确保持续增加我们金库中的代币数量，同时控制好股本规模。

Now, in the meantime, we're going to take our tokens, and we're going to earn yield on them, put them to work, and make sure that we just keep on increasing the number of tokens that we have in the treasury and keeping our share count under control as well.

因此，结果就是，这些净资产值大多远低于其实际资产价值——抱歉，我说的是，大多数DAT都远低于其净资产价值。

So the result has been most of these NAVs are trading far below net asset most of these DATs, sorry, most of these DATs are trading far below their net asset value.

有些低至0.8、0.9倍，但大多数都远低于净资产值。

Some as low as point eight, point 9, but most of them trade far below.

你能给我们举一个 publicly traded DAT 低于净资产交易的例子吗？

Can you give us, one example of a public publicly traded, DAT trading below NAV?

是的

Yeah.

我不能。

I can't.

我可能不该说。

I'm I'm probably not supposed to.

抱歉。

So sorry.

哦，好的。

Oh, okay.

因为我们是投资者，也是FalconX的投资者。

Because we're investors and FalconX's investors.

抱歉。

So sorry.

哦，好的。

Oh, okay.

没关系。

No worries.

太好了。

Great.

所以，总结一下，回顾你三十年的市场生涯，你觉得有什么是始终没有改变的？

So in closing reflections, what would you say what hasn't changed in your thirty five years, in the markets?

抱歉刚才打断了一下。

Excuse the last interruption here.

我是Tessa。

This is Tessa.

希望你们到目前为止喜欢这期节目。

We hope you're enjoying this episode so far.

如果你喜欢这个播客，请在你收听的平台上为我们留下最好的评价。

If you love the podcast, please give chat with traders the best review you can on whatever platform you're listening from.

这将帮助我们持续制作更多节目。

This will help us to keep the episodes coming.

另外，如果你还没有订阅我们的邮件列表，请访问 chatwithtraders.com 并点击订阅，这样我们可以及时向你发送可能重要的信息。

Also, if you haven't subscribed to our email list, please hop on to chat with traders.com and click on subscribe so we can keep you posted of information that may be of importance.

谢谢。

Thank you.

现在回到与嘉宾的对话。

Now back to the chat with our guests.

没有改变的是，市场保持非理性的时间可能比你保持偿付能力的时间更长，但人们似乎忘记了这一点。

What hasn't changed is this, is that, the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent, and people seem to forget that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对。

Yep.

很有智慧的话。

Good words of wisdom.

所以最后，作为交易员或基金经理，你最困扰的是什么？

So to wrap things up, I what what do you struggle with most as someone who trades or manages the fund?

我认为我在加密货币领域最困扰的是需要收集和处理的信息量实在太大了。

I think what I struggle what I really struggle with most specifically in crypto is just the sheer amount of information that you need to harvest and process.

即使有了人工智能，仍然有海量的信息需要处理。

And even with AI, it's still just a ton of information to process.

最终，即使你的机器在替你做决策，你仍然必须在场。

And ultimately, even if your machines are making decisions for you, you still have to be there.

你依然要对全局负责。

You're still responsible at the helm.

所以，正如我之前提到的，我每天都在思考的一个问题是：我们有这么多不同的指标，该如何解读这一切？

So think that's one thing that I really grapple with every day is, as I mentioned to you, we have all these different indicators that we're looking at, and how do you interpret all of this?

我想说的是，我们正在开发的人工智能正在通过将你的思维方式、你对市场和价值的判断方式融入AI，让这一切变得容易得多。

And what I will say is this, the AIs that we're working on are making that a lot easier by being able to kind of download your the way that you think into an AI and the way that you you think about markets and value markets.

它正在扩展我们处理这些信息的能力。

What it's doing is it's expanding our ability to process this information.

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

所以你们是在开发自己的定制化内部大语言模型，还是在使用现成的？

So are are you creating your own kind of custom in house LLM, or or are you using off the shelf?

哦，明白了。

Oh, okay.

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，我们已经从使用现成的模型，逐步转向自主研发内部模型了。

I mean, we've gone from off the shelf, and we're creating our own in house as well.

嗯。

Mhmm.

从月度来看，这些改进真的令人惊叹。

It's it's it's really astounding just from a on a month to month basis what the improvements are.

很好。

Great.

好了，萨姆，非常感谢你来和交易员们聊天。

Well, Sam, I'd like to thank you for coming on chat with traders.

非常感谢你邀请我，伊恩，我也期待下一次的交流。

Well, thank you so much for having me, Ian, and, I look forward to another one.

是的。

Yeah.

我们的听众该如何联系你呢？

And how can our listeners reach you?

当然可以。

Sure.

你可以通过以下方式联系我。

You can reach me.

你可以通过邮箱联系我，邮箱是 Sam@Monarq-am.com，也可以通过我们的网站或 IR@Monarq.com 联系我们。

Either, email is Sam@Monarq,monarq-am.com, and you can also reach us, via our website or, IR@Monarq.com as well.

太棒了。

Fantastic.

感谢你参加这次节目。

Thanks for coming on the show.

非常感谢。

Thanks so much.

您已经听完了本期《与交易员对话》的全部内容，但请放心，更多充满真实市场洞察、毫无炒作的精彩剧集即将上线。

You've reached the end of this episode of chat with traders, but rest assured, there are more episodes loaded with real market insight and zero hype on the way soon.

为了及时获取每一期精彩新内容，请在 iTunes 上订阅本播客，我们也非常希望您能留下评分和评论。

So to stay updated with each great new release, subscribe to the podcast in iTunes, and we'd love it if you'd leave a rating and review.

下次《与交易员对话》再见。

We'll catch you next time on chat with traders.