与Snap首席执行官埃文·斯皮格尔探讨智能手机之后是什么

但传统的支付系统并不是为这种跨境资金的持续流动设计的。

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我想聊聊你的核心业务。

I want to talk about your core business a bit.

你主要的竞争对手是谁？

Who do you compete with?

你是跟其他主打移动端的社交应用竞争，还是跟Netflix这样的娱乐平台竞争？

Is it you narrowly compete with other mobile first social apps or is it you're competing with other entertainment forums like Netflix is actually a competitor?

毕竟，人们花时间看Netflix，也是一种选择。

Because it's, like, also a thing that you could do with your time.

我只是好奇，你是怎么看待你面临的竞争对手的？

I'm just curious how you think about the set of competitors that you have.

我们的主要竞争对手是聊天类应用。

Our competitors are primarily messaging services.

我觉得，这本质上就是我们服务的核心——聊天。

So I think that's, you know, the core of the service is messaging.

我们刚推出 Snapchat 时，根本没有任何其他社交功能。

When we launched Snapchat, it had no Yes.

除了聊天之外，什么都没有。

Social features beyond messaging.

这一直是推动我们服务增长的关键。

I mean, that's always driven the growth of the the service.

其次，我觉得还有相机功能。

And I think then secondarily, the camera as well.

当你眼前发生一件事时，你会选哪款相机来拍？

So, you know, if there's a moment happening in front of you, which camera do you choose to use?

你是

Do you

用Snap相机还是手机自带的相机来拍照？

capture with a Snap camera or your Lockstring camera?

我觉得这也是我们非常关注的一点。

And I think, you know, that's another thing that we think a lot about.

很多人可能没意识到，比如自拍的数量规模到底有多大。

I I don't think people realize, the scale of, you know, the the number of, you know, selfies, for example.

这事儿特别逗。

It was so funny.

我记得苹果去年公布过一个数据，说今年iPhone上拍了几千亿张自拍之类的。

I think Apple announced last year, they were like, there's been 500,000,000,000 selfies captured on iPhone this year or something like that.

我当时就给我们团队发了条消息。

And I, like, I sent a message to our team.

我说，这数字看着也太少了吧。

I was like, that seems so small.

我是说，你想啊，这得多离谱啊？

I mean, like, what you know, that's how weird is that?

结果他们回复说，哦，Snapchat上拍过的自拍照已经超过一万亿张了。

And sure enough, they came back, they're like, oh, well over a trillion selfies have been captured on Snapchat.

对吧？

Right?

所以我觉得，在同样的这段时间里……

And so I think when you you know, in in the over the same period.

所以当你们

And so when you

数量太多了。

So many.

真的太多了。

It's so many.

是的。

Yeah.

我们公开宣布的数字，其实还压低了不少。

And we we, you know, low low balled what we announced publicly.

所以我觉得。

So I think

对。

Yeah.

有趣的是，

You know, what's funny about

不好意思。

I'm sorry.

平均每个活跃用户拍一千张。

That's a thousand per MAU.

lifetime 呢。

Per Like, lifetime.

如果算上所有用户一生中拍过的自拍，总数已经达到了一万亿张。

If there's been a trillion selfies lifetime.

超过一年。

Over a year.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

一年的时间。

A year period.

月活跃用户接近十亿。

Almost a billion monthly active users.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我觉得，这数量已经相当可观了。

So I think, like, that's a lot.

是的。

Yeah.

但我觉得很多人并没有意识到 Snapchat 摄像功能的规模和用户参与度有多高。

And so I but I think, like, people don't realize the scale and the engagement in the Snapchat camera.

明白了。

Okay.

所以聊天服务才是竞争对手。

So messaging service is the competitor.

那它的商业模式是怎样的呢？

And then how does the business work?

其实我对它的商业模式了解不多。

I actually don't know that much about how the business works.

所以你们的月活跃用户快达到十亿了，收入主要靠广告吗？还是其他收入来源是怎么分布的？

So you've you're approaching a billion MAUs, and then monetization is mostly advertising for them, or how do your different revenue streams break down?

我们主要有两大收入来源。

We've got two major revenue streams.

一个是广告。

One is advertising.

另一个是直接收入。

The other is direct revenue.

直接收入这个业务对我们来说还比较新，大概就是过去两三年才开始的。

The direct revenue business is relatively new for us, I think, over the last, like, two or three years.

我们刚宣布，Snapchat Plus的订阅用户已经达到了两千五百万，直接收入业务的年收入超过了十亿美元。

We just announced we had 25,000,000 Snapchat Plus subscribers, over a billion run rate on the direct revenue business.

是的。

Yep.

这项业务最近增长得非常不错。

So that's been growing really nicely for us.

至于广告，当然，不管是地图上的广告，我们有个产品叫‘推广地点’，而且我们还有一套非常强大的闭环效果追踪系统。

And then advertising, of course, you know, whether that's on the map, we've got a product called Promoted Places, you know, and and actually, you know, really powerful closed loop measurement around that.

很多人现在关心怎么把用户引到实体店，而‘推广地点’在这方面起着至关重要的作用。

So we know, a lot of folks care right now about driving folks into their retail and and promoted places, you know, plays a huge role in doing that.

我感觉现在有个普遍趋势，就是企业越来越倾向于直接变现，尤其是借助AI，因为推理成本确实不低。

There's been a general trend, I think, of businesses directly monetizing the like, having their equivalent of direct revenue be more relevant with AI because the inference costs are real.

以前的公司可能严重依赖广告收入，但你看ChatGPT、Claude这些产品，都得推出不同档次的订阅服务，比如每月20美元或200美元，因为你用的计算资源多寡不同，收费也不同。

And so if you are like, you know, maybe the prior generation of companies were very heavily ad dominant, whereas if you look at, you know, ChatGPT or Claude or something like that, they have to have the various tiers of, you know, subscriptions, $20 a month and $200 a month, because you can just use a small amount of compute or a lot of compute.

所以，你有没有觉得，未来Snap的直接收入会变得越来越重要？因为你们的产品会越来越消耗计算资源。

So do you see similarly direct revenue becoming a bigger deal for Snap in future because you're just gonna have more computationally expensive products?

比如你大量使用计算密集型的Lens Studio功能，作为用户，你可能真的会消耗大量算力。

You know, if you're using a lot of computationally expensive Lens Studio stuff, like, you can potentially burn a lot of compute as a user of Snap.

是的。

Yeah.

这确实是我们需要考虑的一个方面。

I mean, that that's one one consideration for us.

我觉得，当然，我们有一个 Lens Plus 的订阅层级，让你能使用更多的 AI 工具和编辑功能。

I I think and and, you know, of course, we have a a Lens Plus tier of our subscription service, which gives you access to more of our AI tools and editing tools.

我是说，很多人可能没意识到，Snapchat 的相机其实是全球最大的图像和视频生成平台之一。

Mean, I don't think people realize that the Snapchat camera is one of the largest, like, image and video generation Mhmm.

这主要得益于它极高的用户互动频率。

Platforms in the in the world, just given the the frequency of engagement.

而我们实现变现的方式之一，就是通过 Lens Plus 这个产品。

And, you know, one of the ways we do monetize that is with the Lens Plus, product.

不过对我们来说，如果看我们的订阅业务，它其实非常契合公司的理念，也符合我们的核心能力。

But I think for us is if I look at our subscription business, it actually just really aligns with, like, our company's ethos and also our core skill set.

你想想看，Snapchat过去十年最擅长的是什么？就是做出大家真正喜爱的产品。

If you think about, like, what Snapchat has been good at over the past, you know, decade, it's been making products that people really love.

所以我们经常收到用户的邮件，要求增加新功能、不同的功能，比如更个性化的应用主题之类的，但我们当时根本没资源去开发这些。

And so we would always get emails from customers asking for, you know, new features, different features, you know, more bespoke features like app themes, for example, and we never had the resources to work on it.

我们当时也只能说，哎呀，真没办法。

We were like, oh, gosh.

我们不可能只为社区里一小部分人开发功能，哪怕他们对产品和我们的创作充满热情。

Like, we can't build something for, you know, a tiny subset of our community, you know, even though they're so passionate about about the product and and about what we're creating.

所以我觉得Snapchat Plus特别有意思的地方在于，我们终于能集中资源，做出这一长串最忠实用户真正想要、也愿意付费的功能。

And so I think what's been so fun about Snapchat Plus is that we've been able to, you know, dedicate the resources to build this long list of features that our most passionate Snapchatters really want and are willing to pay for.

这真的和我们热爱做的事、擅长做的事完全契合——和用户一起打造酷炫的新功能，满足他们的需求。

And so it really aligns, I think, you know, what we love to do and I think what we do best, is making cool new products with our community and what they want Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

也就是一些更个性化的功能。

You know, which are more bespoke features from us.

不好意思。

I'm sorry.

付费用户和免费用户的需求有什么不同吗？

Is there a difference between what your paid customers tend to want versus what your free customers tend to want?

不一定，但最忠实的Snapchat用户总是会提出各种让产品变得更好的建议。

Not necessarily, but I think the most passionate Snapchatters always have requests for how we can make the product better.

我们不可能每次都为所有需求分配资源。

We can't always resource all those requests.

但现在有了 Snapchat Plus，我们有了一个渠道，用户对这项服务真的非常热情。

But now with Snapchat Plus, we have an avenue where, you know, folks are really passionate about the service.

他们想要一个新的功能。

They want a new feature.

他们会告诉我们，可以为订阅用户开发这个功能。

They let us know we can build that for our subscribers.

我觉得这真的非常令人兴奋。

I think that's been really exciting.

用户通常能提出好点子吗？

Do people have good ideas generally?

用户提出的点子都很棒。

People have great ideas.

源源不断的好点子。

An endless Yeah.

是的

Yeah.

源源不断的好点子。

Endless number of great ideas.

你们怎么从用户群体中获取产品创意？

How do you expose yourself to product ideas from the community?

我的邮箱是 evansnap dot com。

Well, my email is evansnap dot com.

所以我收到的邮件也不少，特别是当

So I I get my fair share of Especially if

你在播客里提到的时候。

you say it on podcasts.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

来自优秀客户的邮件。

Of great customer emails.

不过，你知道的，还有网上的评论。

But, you know, online, on comments.

我是说，我每次发视频，都会收到评论，大家告诉我我们应该在哪些方面做出改变。

I mean, every time I post a video, I'm getting comments with people, you know, telling me what we should do differently.

所以我觉得，与社区互动是其中一大好处。

So I think that's one of the great things about engaging with with our community.

大家通常把社交网络和即时通讯应用看作具有网络效应的商业模式，因为用户的朋友都在上面，所以规模越大，产品体验和商业价值就越好。

People think of social networks and messaging apps as network effects businesses, where the bigger they are, the better they work as products and businesses because you're friends are there.

它们简直就是商学院里讲解网络效应时最经典的教科书案例。

Like, they're almost the they are the textbook example used in, you know, business school discussions of network effects.

这话对了一半，但社交网络其实也存在反向网络效应，以及规模不经济的问题。

And that is somewhat true, but there's also an element where you have anti network effects and diseconomies of scale as a social network.

比如，用户越多，面临的欺诈和垃圾信息问题就越严重。

One is, as you get more popular, there's more kind of fraud and spam problems and things like that.

但还有一个问题，就是社交网络的本质到底是什么？

But there's also a question of, you know, what is the id of the social network?

比如，青少年用某个产品时，可能并不希望自己的叔叔阿姨也在上面，因为氛围完全不对；或者硅谷圈内的人更喜欢用Quora。

And so, you know, maybe, you know, teens using a product don't necessarily want their, like, aunts and uncles on it because, like, the vibe is all wrong or, you know, maybe Silicon Valley insiders preferred Quora.

你还记得吗？我们刚起步那会儿Quora就存在了，那时候它纯粹是硅谷圈内的小众产品，但现在它已经变得非常大众了。

You remember Quora was around when we were first starting out, and it was originally, like, a very Silicon Valley insider product, and, you know, now it's a much broader product.

所以说到Snap，你们做得很棒的一点就是一直保持着酷劲儿，避免了那种因为太大而变得俗气的感觉——这正是很多社交平台后来踩的坑。

And so as I think about Snap, one the things you've done well is kinda you've kept it cool, and you've avoided the ick of it feeling like it's too big, which, again, sometimes social networks run into.

你能谈谈这种现象吗？你是怎么看待这种风险的？

Maybe you can comment on that phenomenon and how you think about the risk in general.

这很有趣，因为你抓住了社交领域里两个最重要的洞察，或者至少是两个最关键的发现。

It's fascinating because you've you've tapped into two of the most important kind of ideas in social or or at least two of the most important findings that that we've had.

第一个，我觉得可能是最重要的，就是我们刚开始做Snapchat的时候，你说得对。

The first one, is, I think maybe the most important, was that when we were starting Snapchat, you're right.

那时候普遍认为，网络越大，价值就越高。

The belief was that the bigger the network was, the more valuable it was, sort of.

而且当时大家对这个问题都有自己的完整理解模型。

And and, you know, folks had a whole model for that for how they thought about it.

Snapchat 所证明的是，真正重要的不是你的社交网络有多大，也不是你能联系多少人。

What Snapchat proved was actually that it's not about the size of your network or the number of people you can contact on your network.

关键在于你真正会交流的是哪些人，而这些人通常远少于你整个社交网络的规模，甚至少于你所有的朋友，对吧？

It's about who you actually talk to, and that tends to be a much smaller group than the total size of the potential network or even your total number of friends, right?

事实上，我猜你每天的大部分对话，都是和你的伴侣进行的吧？

In fact, most of your conversations, I would guess, right, on a daily basis are like with your wife, right?

可能还有一些亲密的朋友，或者最亲近的同事，但真正和你频繁交流的，其实就那么一小撮人。

Maybe with some of your close friends, maybe some of your closest coworkers, but it's actually a very small group of people that you talk to the most.

这彻底颠覆了社交媒体的传统逻辑——以为朋友越多，互动越多，价值就越大。

And that broke the model of social media, right, which was the more friends you have, the more you engage you have, the more value there is.

我们当时就觉得，这说法根本不对。

And we actually said, That doesn't sound right.

我觉得人们花最多时间聊天的，始终是那些对他们最重要的人。

I think people spend most of their time talking to the folks who are most important to them.

所以我们设计了一个服务，专注于让你和最重要的人——比如亲密朋友——聊天，而且把这个功能做得特别特别好。

So if we design a service that's all about talking to people who are most important to you, your close friends, and we design a service that's really, really great at that.

对吧？

Right?

你可能不会一整天都给第四百个好友发 snaps，但就我而言，我特别喜欢看我们两岁孩子一整天都在干嘛。

You may not send, Snaps all day to, you know, your four hundredth friend, but certainly for me, I love seeing what our two year old is up to throughout the day.

我老婆会给我发一些小视频，真的让我一整天都心情很好。

My wife sends me little Snaps, and it makes my day.

这简直是我一天中最开心的时刻，看看他在做什么、玩得怎么样。

It's the best part of my day, you know, seeing seeing what he's doing and what what he's up to.

所以我们打造的服务，特别适合和亲密朋友互动，但这并不意味着你非得拥有最大的社交网络。

And so we've really built a service that's great for your close friends, and that doesn't necessarily mean, that you need the largest possible network.

你只需要里面有最重要的人就够了。

You just need the most important people in it.

所以我觉得，这正是 Snapchat 能够成长起来的原因之一。当初我们刚起步的时候，人人都说：你们根本不可能跟 Meta 竞争。

And so I think that that was one of the the reasons why Snapchat was able to grow because when we were first getting started, we just heard from everyone, you're never gonna be able to compete with Meta.

对吧？

Right?

根本不可能，毕竟他们的用户基数大得多。

There there's no there's no way because they've got a bigger network.

我觉得第二个教训其实是从这一点延伸出来的，因为我们发现，随着Facebook和Instagram不断壮大，大家压力特别大，总得不断加更多好友，你还记得吧，当年他们的整个商业模式都依赖信息流，对吧？

And then I think the second lesson is sort of a follow on from that because the other thing that we found is that as Facebook grew and Instagram grew, there was so much pressure to add more friends because if you remember back in the day, their entire business was based on the newsfeed, Right?

要想信息流里有内容，你就得有好友。

In order to have content in the newsfeed, you needed to have friends.

所以为了有更多内容，你就得不停地加好友，让信息流里帖子更多，广告机会也更多。

So in order to have more content, you needed to to, you know, add more and more and more friends to have a a newsfeed that had, you know, more posts and therefore more advertising opportunities.

这就带来了一个很棘手的问题，因为很多人发现，加到一定数量的好友后，反而不知道自己到底和谁是好友了。

That created a really precarious problem because I think what folks found is after they added a certain number of friends, they got to a place where they actually didn't know who they were friends with

是的。

Yeah.

在Facebook上。

On Facebook.

他们根本不知道谁会看到自己发的内容。

They didn't know who was going to see their content.

对。

Yeah.

这就好比压垮骆驼的最后一根稻草，导致大家不敢再发帖，这非常危险。

There's a straw that broke the camel's back type phenomenon where then it inhibits posting, which is very dangerous.

是的。

Yeah.

他们觉得，大家也都觉得特别不自在，对。

And they felt and people felt really uncomfortable Yeah.

发帖子的时候感觉特别不自在。

Felt really uncomfortable posting.

我觉得这反过来又加速了引入公开内容的需求。

That then accelerated, I think, this need to bring in public content.

对吧？

Right?

不再是朋友的内容了。

No longer friend content.

社交网络很快就变了样，更多变成 BuzzFeed 之类的新闻媒体发帖，而不是你朋友的动态。

And very, very quickly, the the social network morphed into something that was much more about, you know, posts from BuzzFeed or something like that or other news providers than it was content about your your friends.

这一直是我们重要的经验之一，也是 Snapchat 更注重私密性的原因之一。

And so think that's been another one of our sort of key learnings over time and one of the reasons why Snapchat is a much more private service.

对吧？

Right?

在 Snapchat 上，你不会因为姑姑评论而尴尬，因为你的动态没有公开评论。

You can't be embarrassed by your aunt on Snapchat because there are no public comments on your story.

对吧？

Right?

你可以放心地跟朋友分享，不用担心出丑。

And you can share with your friends and feel comfortable doing that without, you know, the risk of being embarrassed.

因为这个服务围绕着亲密朋友设计，所以我们不会有同样的问题。

And because the service is oriented around close friends, we don't have those same Yes.

这些同样的问题在公共信息流里也存在。

Many of those same challenges with a public newsfeed.

所以你的看法是，如果从产品体验和好友数量的关系来看，传统观点认为好友越多体验越好，但你说其实一开始是零，因为没人用这产品就没意义。

So your view is that if you think of a payoff curve for how good the product is relative to the number of friends you have on it, again, the textbook view is that it just kinda goes up monotonically, whereas you're saying, you know, it starts off at zero because the product's no use if no one's on it.

然后你认为，好友数到十来个的时候体验会快速提升，但之后可能就停滞了，甚至开始下降。

And then you're saying goes up pretty quickly to, you know, 10 or 20 people, but maybe hits a plateau and starts decreasing it.

这个我不太确定。

So I don't know.

那具体数字是多少呢？

What are the numbers here?

可能还要更少。

Potentially even less.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Yeah.

那么，社交网络在什么情况下，新增用户反而会带来负面体验呢？

So when does it start when does a social network start to having anti utility from the incremental user?

我觉得我们得小心区分社交网络和即时通讯工具。

And I think we we have to be careful to differentiate a social network from a messaging service.

明白了。

Okay.

对吧？

Right?

本质上，因为Snapchat是个即时通讯工具，哪怕只有一个、两个或三个朋友，你也能获得绝大部分价值。

So so at its core, because Snapchat's a messaging service, you can get the vast majority of the value even by having, like, one friend, two friends, three friends.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

那些才是你最常联系的人，这种联系对你来说特别重要。

Those are the folks you talk to the most, and that that connection is really, really important to you.

我觉得，正如我之前提到的，社交网络面临的一个大问题是，为了有足够的内容来推动用户参与，从而支撑广告业务，就必须不断添加更多好友，因为信息流完全依赖新内容。

I think, know, as I mentioned, one of the big challenges of social networks was that in order to have enough content to, you know, drive enough engagement to grow the advertising business, there was a need to add more and more and more friends because the news feed was really reliant on new content.

所以，我们很早就意识到一件事——虽然我们执行得怎么样还可以讨论，但关键在于，我们很早就发现需要引入非好友的内容，比如媒体和创作者发布的内容。

So I think one of the things that we did very very early on, and we can argue about how how well we executed on this, but one of the things we identified very early on was that we needed to open up to non friend content, right, publisher content, content from creators very, very early on.

这样一来，当用户看完了好友发的内容，就不必非得去加好友，而是可以直接看媒体或创作者的内容。

So rather than driving people to add friends, right, they could watch content from publishers when they ran out of content from their close friends.

而且我们对这些内容进行了审核。

And so we moderated that content.

我们是最早一批用人工智能来排序这类内容的公司之一，就是我们的‘发现’功能。

We were one of the first companies to actually rank that content with AI, you know, with our service called Discover.

核心理念很简单：别逼着用户加好友才能看到更多内容。

And the the fundamental thesis was like, let's not force people to add friends so they can watch more content.

直接给他们展示媒体或创作者的内容就行了。

Let's just show them content from from publishers or from from creators.

这很有意思。

Oh, that's very interesting.

明白了。

Okay.

所以你的看法是，错误的做法是去加更多人。

So your view is that the mistake would be one should add more people.

比如在领英上多加联系人，好让动态里有内容可看。

You know, you should get more connections on LinkedIn so that there is, you know, content in your feed.

而你的观点是，想互动的人和让你有事可做的内容，这两者其实是完全不同的，混在一起非常危险。

And your view is that you should separate out the people you want to interact with and having stuff to do in the app, and those are actually pretty separate concerns, and it's very dangerous to mix them.

我记得大概在2016年或2017年的时候，我们就说过，最重要的一件事是把社交和媒体分开。

And that know, I think back in it may have been 2016, 2017, we said the most important thing you need to do is separate social from media.

最大的错误就是把它们混在一起，这会带来很多扭曲的动机。

The biggest mistake was combining them, and it creates a lot of perverse incentive.

所以，你只需要加那些对你重要、关系亲近的人，用这个平台来聊天，想分享的时候就发个动态之类的。

So instead, just add the friends that are important to you, who are close to you, use the service for messaging, share with them if you want to with stories or things like that.

如果你还想看更多内容，那当然没问题。

Then, you know, if you wanna watch more content, great.

现在你面前有整个内容世界，来自各种出版方和创作者。

We've got this whole world of content available to you from publishers and creators, etcetera.

是的。

Yeah.

这很有意思。

That's very interesting.

好的。

Okay.

从产品角度来看，我一想到 Snapchat，就会想到它的短暂性——内容不会持久。

The other thing that from a product point of view I really associate with Snapchat is obviously persistence or lack thereof, the ephemeral nature.

就连我这一代人，对这种规范的理解也发生了很大变化。

And the norms around this have shifted a lot even over the course of my lifetime.

我记得刚接触互联网的时候，大家的共识是——如果你还记得的话——千万别用真名上网。

Like, I remember when I started using the Internet, the norm don't if remember this, but that you do not use your real name on the Internet.

那时候大家都觉得互联网是个危险的地方，用真名会很不安全。

You know, the Internet's a, like, scary place, and it'll be dangerous for you to have your real name out there.

后来我们就慢慢接受了这种做法。

And then we got okay with that.

接着就进入了一个时代，所有东西都会被永久保存在社交媒体和其他平台上。

And then there was the era where everything got posted in perpetuity through, you know, social networks and everything else.

然后我们才意识到，把所有东西都永久存下来可能并不是个好主意。

And then we realized, maybe everything being posted in perpetuity is not a great idea.

我觉得现在人们还在摸索该怎么处理这些问题。

And I feel like people are kinda still trying to figure this stuff out.

所以我想再问问你，从长远来看，你希望有一个地方存着你拍过的每一张照片吗？

And so I'm curious again what you think the long term equilibrium is of, do you want a central store of all the photos you've ever taken in your camera roll?

你希望所有内容都转瞬即逝吗？

Do you want everything to be ephemeral?

如果一切都很快消失，你可能会后悔没留下几年前那张生日照。

If things were ephemeral, maybe you really wish you'd kind of, kept that birthday snap from a while ago.

那么，从整体来看，人们到底该怎样看待和处理网上的数据呢？

And so what is the long term equilibrium here just online in terms of how people reason about data?

我们是不是需要在一次性消失的消息和永久保存之间，多加一些更细致的控制选项？

Do we need more fine grained control between a one off disappearing message and, you know, kept forever?

也许我们需要一些新的产品设计？

Maybe we need new product inventions?

我觉得，总的来说，这可能会跟我们几千年来的生活方式一样——大部分生活本来就是转瞬即逝的。

I think, like, my general thesis would be that it will probably mirror the way that we've been living for thousands of years, which is the vast majority of life is ephemeral.

只有真正重要的东西，我们才会留下来。

And then you save the things that are important.

对吧？

Right?

你没必要把每个想法都记下来。

I mean, don't write down every thought you have.

你当然也不会录下每一次对话，虽然我们现在正在录这一段。

You certainly don't record every conversation you have, although we're recording this one.

对吧？

Right?

所以我觉得，随着时间推移，技术的发展很可能会朝这个方向走，Snapchat 就是个很好的例子。

And so I think for me that's likely how, you know, things will evolve over time with technology, certainly what we've seen with Snapchat.

当初我们说，人们把每一场对话都永久保存下来，这其实说不通，而且这种做法还影响了人们表达和分享的方式。

I mean, when we said, hey, it doesn't make sense that everyone's recording everything forever in terms of our conversations, and in fact, that has an impact on the way people express themselves and share with one another.

那时候听上去简直荒谬，因为所有人觉得所有东西都该永远保存着。

That sounded crazy at the time because literally everything was saved forever.

早在2012年，我们就谈到隐私的重要性，以及隐私和自我表达之间的关系。

And we were talking about things like the importance of privacy, right, and the relationship between privacy and self expression back in 2012.

当时大家都说：你在说什么呢？

And people were like, what are you talking about?

那时候人人都在说，未来一切都该开放、互联，对吧？

This was at the time when everyone was saying that, you know, we're gonna be everything's gonna be open and connected, right?

你得把自己的一切都分享给所有人。

You're gonna share everything about yourself with everybody.

但几千年来，人类从来就不是这么生活的。

And I that's just not how humans have lived for thousands and thousands of years.

所以我觉得，未来很可能会延续现在已经发生的事——你现在用的大多数通讯产品，都默认会自动删除你的聊天记录，除非你特意保存。

So I think what's very likely looking forward is what's already happened, right, which is the vast majority of communication products you use now, you know, have retention settings that delete, you know, your conversations unless you wanna save them.

Snapchat 也是这样，发 Snap 的时候也是这个逻辑。

I think that's true for, you know, Snapchat in terms of, you know, making Snaps as well.

有时候你就是想给朋友发个搞笑的东西，但如果是重要回忆，比如我们两岁的孩子在那儿跑来跑去特别可爱，那我就会特意保存下来。

Know, you may just wanna send something that's silly to your friend, but if it's an important memory or if it's our two year old running around doing something cute, I'll just save it.

所以我觉得，人们会用技术的方式，就像他们对待真实世界一样：说重要的，扔掉其他的。

So I think people are gonna interact with technology the same way they interact with the world, which is say the things that are important and discard the rest.

对。

Yes.

没错。

Yes.

有意思。

Interesting.

那聊天应用接下来会往哪儿发展？

Where do messaging apps go?

对我来说，最关键的问题是，我们该怎么在智能眼镜上实现最好的沟通方式。

To me, mean, I I the big question that that I think we need to to solve is what is the best way to communicate on specs.

我觉得现在这事儿特别有意思。

I think that's what's really interesting to me right now.

有趣的是，未来的社交网络其实就是在现实中聚在一起，戴着智能眼镜互动。

And I think, like, what's fascinating is that, you know, this social network of the future is actually hanging out together in person and using specs together.

这才是让我对数字沟通的未来感到兴奋的地方。

So that's what excites me about the future of digital communication.

我觉得聊天应用当然没问题，但很难比得上和朋友家人真正待在一起的感觉。

I think, you know, messaging is fine, but it's hard to compete with actually being together with your friends and your family.

如果我们能做出一种技术，既有趣又保留了科技的所有好处，还能让你和亲友在一起，那绝对是巨大的进步。

So if we can build technology that makes it that fun, that gets you all the benefits of technology but with your friends and family, I think that's a huge positive.

你不让孩子用电子屏幕吗？

You don't let your kids use screens.

你打算等孩子多大才开始允许使用？

What age do you think you'll start?

我们十五岁的孩子早就完全离不开屏幕了，那艘船早就开走了。

Our 15 year old is fully on That screen ship sailed a long time ago.

说实话，大概是在疫情期间就彻底开始了。

In fact, probably in COVID for sure.

你知道的，比如那个两岁的宝宝，我们让他理发的时候看YouTube。

You know, the the the baby, for example, the two year old, like, we we let him watch YouTube when he's getting his haircut.

他特别喜欢工程车，所以喜欢看那些施工类的视频。

He's big into construction, so he likes to watch, you know, construction.

两岁大的孩子玩积木特别有意思。

Year old construction is pretty dope.

真的很棒。

It's awesome.

我是说，其实不管多大年纪，玩积木都特别有意思。

I mean, by the way, it's awesome at every age.

不过，透过两岁孩子的眼睛去看，那种感觉特别好玩。

But, like, to see it through a two year old's eyes is, like, so fun.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

简直太震撼了。

It's, like, mind blowing.

对。

Yeah.

所以他特别喜欢看建筑类视频。

So he's big into his construction videos.

至于六七岁的孩子，偶尔也会看部电影，其实TBPN那帮人送了我一个复古游戏机，是掌机版的《Game Boy》重制版，所以……

And then, you know, the six and seven year olds will watch, like, a movie from time to time or something like actually, the TBPN guys gave me the mod retro, like, video game the Game Boy remake And so

咱们看看这个。

Let's check that

好的。

out.

对。

Yeah.

他们就是为了这个买的。

They got those for Yeah.

太棒了。

Awesome.

没错。

Yeah.

他们是圣诞节买的，所以偶尔会玩一玩。

They got those for for Christmas, so they play they play those a little bit.

我意思是，现在社会上有个大讨论，就是该怎么对待孩子和青少年，而一般来说，成年人怎么用手机和社交媒体，大家觉得都行。

I guess what I'm sort of getting at is there's this big society wide debate right now as to what you do with kids, teens, and well, in the general view, adults can kinda do what they want when it comes to phones and social media.

你觉得该怎么定这个政策才合适？

What do you think is the right policy position there?

我觉得真正的问题在于一刀切的政策，因为每个人都不一样。

I think the real danger is blanket policy when everybody is different.

你知道的。

You know?

孩子的发育阶段都不一样。

Kids are different developmentally.

对吧？

Right?

每个孩子的情况都不一样，发育进度、兴趣爱好，这些都不一样。

Each of our kids, you know, are different in in, you know, where they are developmentally, what they're passionate about, you know, their interests.

所以不管怎样，父母都得努力帮孩子找到健康的平衡，根据每个孩子不同阶段的需求来调整做法。

So I think no matter what, I think parents need to work to cultivate a healthy balance, with their kids and do what's appropriate for each of their individual kids at different times.

比如我们家15岁的弗林，小时候经常在爸爸家和我们家之间来回跑。

You know, Flynn, for example, our 15 year old, he was going back and forth between his dad's house a lot when he you know, and our house when he was younger.

所以他很早就需要一部手机，对吧？

And so he needed a phone earlier, right?

不然根本没法协调安排，这事儿确实挺关键的。

It was otherwise impossible to coordinate, And so, you know, that was something that was important.

这是我跟我妻子一起决定的，比我们原本计划的更早给了他手机。

That was a decision that my wife and I made, you know, to give him a phone earlier than maybe we would have otherwise.

我觉得他那时候需要手机，所以比我自己小时候得到手机的时间要早得多。

I think earlier than I, you know, got a phone when I was growing up because it was important for where he was at.

所以我觉得，作为父母，我们最了解自己的孩子，对吧？

So I think, you know, being a parent, we know our kids, I would argue, best, you know?

因此，关键是要考虑清楚，什么样的安排才真正符合你孩子的成长阶段。

And so it's really important to think about what's developmentally appropriate for kids, your own kids.

不过总的来说，最让我担心的是公众情绪的剧烈摇摆。

I think, generally speaking, though, what concerns me the most is, like, the massive swings in public sentiment.

对吧？

Right?

你记得疫情期间，大家都说科技拯救了我们所有人。

If you remember during the pandemic, it was like technology is saving us all.

整天盯着屏幕都没关系，随时都可以用。

Use screens all day long, all the time.

对吧？

Right?

现在大家又开始担心屏幕了，干脆完全不用了。

And now we're in a moment where people are worried about screens and don't use them at all.

我觉得，生活中任何事情，真正健康的应对方式都是找到平衡。

And I think the healthy response to really anything in life, right, is like achieve achieve a balance.

对吧？

Right?

我们家十五岁的孩子特别喜欢艺术。

You know, our 15 year old, he loves art.

他很有天赋，真的。

He's, you know, amazingly talented.

他也喜欢和朋友待在一起。

He likes hanging out with his friends.

当然，他也想放松一下，看看奈飞上的节目，或者在色拉布上和朋友聊聊天。

And then, you know, of course, wants to unwind and watch something on Netflix or chat with his friends on Snapchat.

这没什么问题。

Like, no problem.

我觉得关键就在于这种健康的平衡。

I think it's all about that healthy balance.

对我来说，真正让我担忧的是，在人工智能发生如此剧烈变化的当下，年轻人必须学会如何使用这些工具。

So I think for me, like, what I'm really watching with a lot of concern, is that in this moment of such dramatic change with artificial intelligence, young people need to be learning how to use these tools.

年轻人必须掌握这些工具，这绝对是至关重要的。

It is absolutely imperative that young people learn how to adopt these tools.

而且，让年轻人把脑子里的想法快速变成现实，这件事本身就很鼓舞人心。

And by the way, it's so inspiring for young people to take an idea in their head and see it made real so quickly.

而所有这些进步，恰恰发生在人们对科技、对人工智能充满怀疑和担忧的时期。

And all of these advancements are happening at a time when people are incredibly skeptical about technology or concerned about technology and are concerned about AI.

所以，我觉得整个行业还有很多工作要做，得建立起信任，确保年轻人愿意使用这些对他们未来至关重要的工具。

And so, you know, I think the industry has a lot of work to do to build trust, to, you know, make sure that young people are adopting these tools, which are just so vitally important to their future.

相关的是，澳大利亚刚刚全面禁止了16岁以下青少年使用排名前十的那些社交媒体应用。

Relatedly, Australia just blanket banned under sixteens from the top 10 or some number like that social media apps.

禁令实施之后，你看到什么变化了吗？

What have you seen post the ban?

澳大利亚孩子们的行为变化，而不是像

In kind of the behavior of kids across Australia as opposed to,

是啊。

you know Yeah.

大概日志里就全是零了吧？

Presumably just a lot of zeros in the logs?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这项禁令的执行方式存在不少问题。

I I think there are a lot of challenges with the way that the ban was implemented.

正如你提到的，它只覆盖了少数几个应用。

As you as you mentioned, it only applies to a small number of apps.

所以，如果你是个年轻人，想继续用Snapchat这类服务，完全可以改用一些没被禁的仿制应用，它们并不在限制范围内。

So, you know, if you're a young person, you wanna, you know, continue to use services like Snapchat, you can just use a clone service that isn't under you know, fall doesn't

结果冒出了一大堆直接的仿制应用，对吧？

fall a bunch of direct clones popped up, basically?

我没去细查到底有多少个克隆应用，但替代品确实不少。

I haven't, you know, followed the exact number of clones, but there are plenty of alternatives.

应用商店里有上百万款应用，所以我觉得只针对极少数几款服务实施禁令，而且不在操作系统层面去落实，这就带来了很多难题，对吧？

There are millions of apps in the App And Store, so I think to only apply the band to a very small number of services, to not implement it at the operating system level just creates a lot of challenges, right?

你可以用面部识别来解锁。

You know, you can use facial ID scans.

你也可以用政府发放的身份证件，但很多年轻人手里并没有这类证件。

You can also use, you know, ID ID government IDs themselves, but a lot of young people don't have government IDs.

所以我觉得，实施起来确实有不少难点。

So I think, you know, there's some real challenges in implementing a

禁令

band

在应用层面执行这样的规定。

like this at the app level.

我觉得家长最需要了解的是，他们其实已经可以通过手机操作系统，在孩子的手机上进行相关设置了。

I think what parents need to know, what's so important for parents to know is they can already configure this on their teen's phone using the operating system.

苹果提供了大量很棒的设置功能。

So Apple's got a ton of great settings.

我们在家就用这些设置来管理我们15岁孩子的手机，可以精确控制他能用哪些应用、用多长时间。

We use them at home for our 15 year old where we can decide exactly what apps he can use, how long he can use them.

所有这些功能其实都内置在操作系统里，这才是实施这类管控更稳固的方式。

All of these settings are available to parents at the operating system level, which is a much more resilient way to implement this sort of policy.

所以我觉得，现在生态里这么多喧嚣和担忧，反而掩盖了一个事实：这些工具早就对家长开放了。

So I think a lot of the noise in the ecosystem today and a lot of the concern obfuscates the fact that, like, these tools are already available for parents.

它们已经存在很久了，我真希望政府能多花点时间告诉家长这些功能的存在，而不是只靠少数几个应用来实现，这根本解决不了问题。

They've been available for a very long time, and I wish the government would spend more time teaching parents or at least telling parents that these tools, are available because the app level implementation with a handful of apps just doesn't really make a lot of sense.

是的，我同意。

Yeah, I agree.

列出具体应用名单的做法显得很笨拙，就像你说的，App Store里有那么多应用。

The list of named apps feels like quite a clumsy implementation where, as you say, there are lots of apps in the App Store.

尤其是聊天类应用，彼此之间替代性很强，结果只会让用户转去别的应用，根本达不到预期效果。

Especially with messaging apps and stuff, there's you know, various substitutability between things, and so it seems like it will obviously lead to people going to other apps, and it's not clear what you've accomplished.

说到青少年的使用习惯，很多国家都在讨论青少年的心理健康问题。

As you think about teen usage in general, there's for for example, there's lots of debates in lots of countries about kind of teen mental health.

我总是不太确定该怎么分析这些数据，因为很多都依赖自我报告的心理健康指标，这种指标本身就很难用，毕竟报告标准一直在变。

And I'm never quite sure how to pick through the data where, like, a lot of it's reliant on self reported mental health data, which is just kind of a hard index to use because you get changed in reporting standards and everything like that.

但同时，你也能想象，有些产品设计确实容易让人沉迷，或者走向错误的方向。

But at the same time, you can imagine maybe bad engagement wells in which to draw people, and you can conceive of bad product directions to go in.

所以我很好奇你怎么看——青少年其实正在自己摸索很多事，他们的生活本来就很复杂，这时候把责任全推给社交媒体或聊天应用，是不是太简单了？

And so I'm curious how you think of this, where do you think it's teens are figuring out a lot, and they have complex lives with lots going on, and it's easy to pick on social media apps or messaging apps as a scapegoat?

或者你认为，

Or do you think, look.

这些产品本身就有设计得对与错之分，我们花了很多时间去思考这个问题，

There's, like, a right way or a wrong way to design these products, and we spend a lot of time thinking about,

不对。

no.

那样做其实不是一个好的产品设计，因为它会带来负面的结果。

That actually wouldn't be a great product affordance to have because it would lead to some bad outcomes.

你是觉得在应用层面能做些什么，还是说这纯粹就是个方便用户进入的门槛？

Like, do you think there is stuff to do at the app level, or do you think it's just a convenience gate to it?

我觉得，首先我们肩负着巨大的责任，要打造一款我们认为能对世界产生积极影响的产品。

I think, first and foremost, we have an enormous responsibility to make a product that we think can have a positive impact on the world.

我觉得挺有意思的是，你刚才提到了更广泛的社交媒体，有很多研究都是针对社交媒体整体做的，对吧？这些研究通常把 Snapchat 和 Instagram、TikTok 或者其他平台混在一起看。

I think what's really interesting, you know, you you mentioned sort of social media more broadly, and there are a lot of studies that look at social media broadly, right, and include Snapchat together with Instagram or TikTok or whatever.

也有少数几项独立研究，是我们没有资助、也没有参与过的，它们试图去搞清楚不同应用具体带来了什么影响，并尝试区分不同应用之间的差异。

There are a small number of independent studies, you know, that we have not funded or or otherwise been involved with that have tried to understand actually the impacts of different apps and tried to differentiate between different apps.

我觉得特别有意思的是，现在已经有至少三项研究了，分别来自澳大利亚、荷兰和美国，结果显示Snapchat实际上对人们的幸福感和人际关系有积极影响。

And I think what's so fascinating, I think now there's been maybe three or or more of them, one out of Australia, think one out of The Netherlands or something, one in The US that show that Snapchat actually has a positive impact on people's well-being and relationships.

这和TikTok或Instagram不同，后两者实际上与人们的幸福感呈负相关。

And that's different than TikTok or Instagram, is actually negatively associated with people's well-being.

所以我认为，因为Snapchat是围绕与朋友和家人的沟通构建的，而人际关系是预测积极心理健康结果的首要因素，对吧？比如你从抑郁情绪中恢复的能力。正因为Snapchat聚焦于你现实中的朋友以及与他们建立联系，所以当研究人员对其进行研究时，发现它带来了积极的结果，这并不让我感到意外。

And so I think because Snapchat is built around communication with your friends and family, because relationships are the number one predictor of positive mental health outcomes, right, about of your ability to recover from a negative depressive event, It it doesn't surprise me that because Snapchat's oriented around your real friends and connecting with your real friends that it has positive outcomes when it's studied by by researchers.

所以我认为我们面临的一个挑战，显然就是确保人们能正确理解Snapchat的角色，而不是把我们和其他社交媒体混为一谈，因为人们使用Snapchat的方式非常不同，它主要是一个通讯服务。

So I think one of the challenges for us, obviously, is to make sure that people are understanding Snapchat's role and not just lumping us in with social media because people use Snapchat very differently and primarily as a communications service.

所以我们真的希望对这个世界产生积极的影响。

And so we really wanna have a positive impact in the world.

这对我们来说非常重要。

That's really important to us.

我们很自豪，独立研究一再证实了这一点。

We are proud of the fact that independent research continues to show that.

大家对科技过度使用的担忧是有道理的。

You know, concerns about overuse of technology are warranted.

正因如此，我觉得保持健康平衡特别关键。

And that's why I think that healthy balance is so important.

以前关于电视的研究可不少吧？

I mean, were plenty of studies back in the day with television, right?

看太多电视确实和负面健康影响有关。

If you watch too much television that's associated, you know, with negative health outcomes.

所以我觉得，再好的东西，要是过头了，也未必好。

So I think too much of a good thing, you know, can be

那你觉得社交应用是不是存在一种从孤独到连接的连续谱？

So do you think there's like a loneliness connectedness spectrum with apps?

你说如果一个人陷得太深，比如刷着无尽的动态，刷到第四个小时，那可能不是个好状态；而你们想鼓励的是更偏向连接的那一端，认为这样对青少年或其他人会有更好的结果。

And you're saying if you go too far into the loneliest direction where you're kind of going through the endless feed and you're in hour four, that's maybe not a great place to end up, whereas what you guys are trying to encourage is more in the connectedness direction, and you think that will lead to pretty good outcomes for teens or anyone else.

就我们从独立研究中看到的情况来看，确实如此。

Just in terms of, like, what we've seen with the with the independent research Yes.

我觉得 Snapchat 被发现和积极的幸福感、良好的人际关系相关，是因为它连接的是朋友，对吧？

I think the reason that Snapchat shows up as being associated with positive well-being and positive relationships is because it's connecting friends, right?

而且是在一个让人能自由表达、做真实自己的环境里，发个搞笑的照片也没关系。

And doing so in an environment where people feel like they can express themselves, be their true self, send a silly photo, right?

不用非得在社交媒体上装完美，也不用非得把东西永久保存，等着别人点赞评论那一套。

Not feel the pressure to look perfect on social media or not save something forever, you know, and receive public likes and comments and that kind of thing.

所以我觉得这正是 Snapchat 的不同之处，我们也特别希望继续明确一点：我们的服务就是这么设计的。

So I do think that's a difference with Snapchat, and I think it's so important for us to just continue to make clear, like, built our service differently.

事实上，Snapchat 早期的很多灵感，就来自我们不喜欢 Facebook。

In fact, a lot of what inspired Snapchat in the early days was that we didn't like Facebook.

对社交媒体没什么好感。

Didn't like social media.

我们不喜欢那种庞大的好友列表，还有发帖时总得担心要够酷、够热门、够好看之类的压力。

We didn't like that you had this huge public friends list and all this pressure around, you know, posting things that would be cool and popular or pretty or whatever.

我们是在社交媒体环境中长大的，所以特意做了些不一样的东西，就是想和朋友一起用得开心。

We grew up with social media, we built something different, many ways, in response to have something fun that we could use with our friends.

是的，没错。

Yeah, yeah.

你觉得内容方面会不会有问题？因为一旦你开始往下深挖，就容易越陷越深。

Do you think there's an issue because as you think then about the content side of the business, there's a criticism that if you start down a rabbit hole, you get pulled further down the rabbit hole.

对吧？

Right?

比如你一开始对主权公民的阴谋论感兴趣，结果就越看越深。

You know, if you start interested in sovereign citizen conspiracy theories, you'll get pulled further into that.

要是你一开始接触的是厌食症相关内容，也会越陷越深。

If you start with anorexia, you know, content, you'll get pulled further into that.

你们在内容方面，是不是得平衡一下，别让大伙儿陷得太深？

Is that something you think about that you have to balance people not getting pulled too far into rabbit holes on the content side?

我觉得你刚才说的特别有意思的一点是，大家把太多注意力放在算法上，却忽视了内容本身。

What I think is so fascinating about what you said is that people have focused far too much on the algorithms and not enough on the content itself.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得大家之所以盯着算法不放，是因为担心触犯第一修正案的保护条款，也就是怕平台展示的内容违规。

And I think part of the reason why that folks focus on the algorithm is because they're wary of tripping the first amendment protections, right, around what content you can display on your service.

但自从我们推出发现页面，也就是开始在 Snapchat 上提供内容产品以来，我们就一直在对内容进行审核。

But since we launched Discover, since we ever offered a content product on Snapchat, we have moderated that content.

刚开始的时候确实很难，因为那时候还没有人工智能，所有内容都得靠人工来审核。

Now in the early days, it was really hard because human beings had to moderate all the content before the days of of artificial intelligence.

所以当时我们合作的出版商数量非常少，这确实影响了我们的增长速度，因为我们没有足够丰富的内容库。

And so we only had a very small number of publishers, and that actually impacted our ability to grow because we didn't have a huge corpus of content.

不过现在，我们依然对所有在 Snapchat 上公开显示的内容进行严格审核。

But now today, we continue to moderate the content, all the content that, you know, is appearing publicly on Snapchat.

所以我觉得这一点必须继续保持关注，毕竟这是提供安全、负责任的内容体验的关键。

And so I think that really needs to continue to be the the focus, you know, for, you know, for delivering a safe and responsible content experience.

但大家不关注算法，难道不是因为对普通用户来说，算法本身就成了内容吗？

But don't people focus on the algorithm because for an individual user, the algorithm is the content?

比如，一篇内容如果没意思，和另一篇特别有意思的内容相比，浏览量可能会差出好几个数量级。

Like, there'll be several orders of magnitude difference in the views between an uninteresting piece of content and a really interesting piece of content.

所以我用这些App的实际感受是，算法其实就定义了我个人的电视频道。

And so my lived experience of any of these apps is that the algorithm defines my, you know, personal TV channel.

不过我觉得你举的那个例子，就是关于厌食症内容的这种恶性循环，我的观点是，厌食症内容或者推广厌食症的内容违反了我们的规定，所以不应该在我们的平台上出现。

But I think in the example that you use, you know, a rabbit hole of anorexic content, like, my view would be like that anorexic content, you know, or content promoting anorexia runs afoul of our guidelines, therefore should not appear on our platform.

明白了。

Okay.

所以你是想从内容审核这一层就把它拦截掉？

So you wanna stop it at the moderation level?

对，在内容层面就处理。

At the content level.

我觉得这正是讨论应该聚焦的地方。

And I think that's really where the the conversation Yeah.

讨论就该在这里进行。

Needs needs to be.

而且，你知道，在美国这确实很难，因为涉及第一修正案的问题。

And, you know, again, it's hard in The United States Of America because that's a First Amendment issue.

所以确实更难一些。

So that's much harder Yes.

去进行监管。

To regulate.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

有意思。

Interesting.

关于内容审核，有什么值得说的吗？

Is there anything interesting to say on moderation?

我觉得这几十年来，大家一直在摸索怎么做好这件事。

I mean, I presume that's just been a multi decade's journey of getting that right.

我觉得关键在于，这很重要。

I guess what I would say is it's important.

我觉得我们社区所体验到的内容质量非常关键。

You know, I think the content experience that our community has is really important.

我们一直都有公开、一致的内容规范，让所有人都清楚哪些行为是被允许的。

We've always had fair, consistent content guidelines that we share with everybody so that they understand the rules of the road.

我们的理念就是，网络空间也得有基本的规则。

And our concept has been there should be rules of the road.

五年前、十年前，情况还不太一样。

And I think, you know, five, ten years ago that was different.

现在越来越多的人开始意识到，线上平台应该对发布的内容设定更明确的界限。

I think now more people are are appreciating that that there should be more guidelines around the types of content displayed on services online.

现在大家经常讨论这个领域的分发问题，你们马上就要突破十亿月活跃用户了，这带来了很多优势——你们可以把发现页的内容推给原本就用你们聊天功能的用户。但反过来，竞争对手也能用你们发明的功能，把它们推给自己的用户群。

People talk a lot about distribution dynamics in this space and the fact that you guys, now that you're soon passing a billion MAUs, there's a lot of advantages you have where you have you can promote the Discover content in the existing app that first became popular with messaging, but also your competitors can do that with your functionality where you invent functionality, and they can distribute it to their user bases.

我只是好奇，你们其实同时站在了分发的两边，这该怎么看？

I'm just curious how the distribute like, you're on both sides of that.

对吧？

Right?

你们自己有分发渠道，但同时也要和那些用户基数更大的对手竞争。

You have your own distribution, but you also compete with others who have, you know, even more distribution.

目前这场分发之争，局面到底怎么样？

Just how is the distribution battle playing out at the moment?

我觉得这一切里最重要的一点是，分发在今天变得越来越关键。

I guess perhaps the the most important thing in all of this is distribution is getting more and more and more important, right, in this day and age.

随着现在用AI工具开发软件、打造公司变得越来越容易，分发的价值反而更加凸显了。

And I think as it becomes easier to build companies, to build software, to to innovate using AI tools, I do think there's a real premium on distribution.

我觉得未来，人们会把更多资源从软件工程这类领域，转向分发，以便更快地增长。

And I think people are gonna reallocate more resources away from things like software engineering, for example, to distribution in order to grow faster.

所以我觉得，现在渠道的重要性真的非常高。

So I think distribution is at a real premium.

如今作为一个品牌，想获得曝光、赢得用户，真的很难。

It's hard as a brand, you know, today to get visibility, to, you know, get traction.

像Snapchat这样的平台，对任何企业的发展都至关重要，而且这种价值还在持续上升。

And so places like Snapchat, I I think, are a really important part of growing any any business, and that's only becoming more valuable at this moment in time.

所以当其他方面越来越容易时，渠道的护城河反而变得更关键了？

So you end up having distribution defensibility, especially as other things get easier?

我觉得这 absolutely 至关重要。

I think it's just critically important.

就我们自己来说，展望未来，我们一直不缺好点子，对吧？

I think even for us, as we think about the future of our business, we've always had a ton of great ideas, right?

好点子多得是，但能投入的资源却远远不够。

Many more great ideas than resources to actually execute on those ideas.

每当我们讨论要不要做个新App，就会觉得：天啊，我们哪能抽出15个人去启动一个新项目啊。

And so every time we kicked around, oh, we got an idea for a new app, it's like, oh gosh, I don't think we can spare 15 people to spin up a new app.

不可能。

No way.

现在，只要花半个人的时间，也就是半个团队成员的时间，我们就能开发出一个全新的服务，并通过 Snapchat 推广出去。

Now, with half a person's time, half a team member's time, we can build a totally new service and distribute it through Snapchat.

所以，当我们思考公司未来的时候，能够打造多款应用或更多服务，这种分发能力加上人工智能的进步，对我们来说意义重大。

And so that, I think, us, as we think about the future of the business, being able to build out, you know, a multi app strategy or more services, that distribution coupled with these advancements in artificial intelligence are a really big deal for us.

我们之前聊到过，Snap 能一直保持酷炫，这在即时通讯应用或社交网络里可不容易。

We talked earlier about Snap managing to remain cool, which is hard for a a messaging app or a social network.

你们是怎么做产品的？

How do you run products?

就是说，日常都怎么运作？

Like, just what's the day to day?

会请设计师来展示他们的方案吗？

Are you having designers come present to stuff?

还是说你们自己在想点子？

Are you coming up with the ideas?

有人会向你提想法吗？

Are people pitching ideas to you?

你们的评审流程是怎样的？

What's the review process?

你们会评审正在运行的功能吗？

Are you reviewing working features?

你们会看线框图吗？

Are you reviewing wireframes?

我特别想了解一下，Snap的创意流程到底是怎样的。

I would just love to hear what the creative process looks like at Snap.

首先，不追求潮流其实挺好的。

Well, first of all, it's cool to be uncool.

我们从来不是在刻意追求‘酷’。

So we're never trying to focus on cool.

我们更关注做出真正有用、能让用户感受到价值的东西。

We're trying to focus on making things that are useful that our community will really get value from.

我觉得最重要的是，我们的北极星应该是持久的价值。

And I think that's so important that like the North Star is durable value.

我特别喜欢设计。

I love design.

这真是我最享受的事情。

That's really my happy place.

我每周都会花几个小时和设计团队一起，就是看各种东西，形式可以是任何样的，对吧？

I spent a couple hours a week with our design team and all we do is look at stuff and it can it can be really in any form, right?

可能只是一张草图。

It can be a sketch.

也可能是白板上的东西，或者一个完整的原型，甚至只是幻灯片上的内容，等等。

It can be something on the whiteboard, it can be a fully functioning prototype, it can be, you know, on a slide or whatever.

但关键是我们会看大量的创意点子。

But the important thing is just that we're looking at a huge volume of ideas.

所以，每周我们大概要看几百个点子，比如怎么优化产品，或者全新的功能。

So, I mean, I think, you know, on a weekly basis, we're probably looking at hundreds of ideas, you know, ways to evolve the service or new new products.

这些都还只是概念阶段。

These are at the concept level.

这些是草图。

These are sketches.

是的。

Yeah.

很多都是画出来的，或者原型之类的。

Lot of them are drawings, yeah, or prototypes or whatever.

现在越来越多的设计师开始直接写代码了，这真挺让人惊讶的。

Know, now increasingly our designers are shipping code, which is really wild.

明白了。

Okay.

自从有了AI，你看到的可运行演示多了不少，因为做起来太容易了。

So post AI, you're seeing many more working demos just because it's easy to make them.

是的。

Yeah.

或者更重要的是，设计师们会说，你知道吗？

Or more importantly, designers are like, you know what?

我真是对这个功能烦透了。

I've just I've been so frustrated about this feature.

这事儿在待办列表里拖了好久了。

It's been in the backlog forever.

我特别想把它做出来。

I'm really passionate about it.

看，我的代码提交在这儿呢。

Like, here's my PR.

明白吧？

You know?

我觉得这真的很棒。

And I think that's pretty awesome.

好的。

Okay.

那你们怎么从这么多好点子中筛选呢？每周肯定有太多想法，根本忙不过来。

And so then how do you how do you down select between people probably come pitch you tons of good ideas in a week more than you have bandwidth to implement.

而且我猜你们还受限于用户对现有功能的熟悉程度。

And also, I presume you're limited a little bit by users have familiarity with functionality.

就算能全部开发出来，也不能一股脑儿全塞进应用里，那样用户会受不了的。

And even if you could build it all, you can't just, like, throw all this functionality into the app because it'll overwhelm users.

所以你们面临两个限制因素。

So you have two limiting factors.

一方面，你们能不能做出高质量的版本？

It's like, can you build good versions of all this stuff?

另一方面，用户能接受多少新功能？

And also, what rate can users absorb?

是的。

Yeah.

有时候，一个特别好的点子其实是：我们应该把这个功能删掉。

And sometimes a great idea is actually we should get rid of this thing.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

这同样是创意过程中非常关键的一部分。

Which is also a really important part of the creative process.

是的。

Yeah.

那你们的筛选流程具体是怎样的？

So So what does the selection process look like?

过程中会有很多讨论，我觉得特别有意思。

It involves a lot of debate, which I think is really fun.

我们的会议，大家全程都在笑，我觉得这对创意过程来说特别重要。

I mean, our our meetings, like, I mean, everyone's laughing the whole time, and that's I think that's one of the most important things to the creative process.

必须得有趣才行。

It has to be fun.

对吧？

Right?

不然的话，我们到底在干嘛呢？

Otherwise, like, what are we doing anyways?

我觉得我们就是尽量讨论、探索各种想法，互相补充完善。

You know, I think we just we try to debate and explore ideas and build on each other's ideas.

而且，我们根本不会设什么过滤机制。

And, you know, there's no filter process.

如果你有什么想法想在设计会上提，尽管说，我们一起来聊聊、试试看。

Like, if you've got something you wanna bring to design meeting, like, have at it, and we'll we'll talk about it and and play around with it.

没错。

And Yeah.

有时候，我们也会说，这想法挺有意思。

You know, sometimes, you know, we also are like, oh, that's interesting.

不过，可能改天再说吧。

But, like, maybe another time.

而且你知道，过了两三年，我们又会突然想起来，哎呀。

And it comes up another you know, two years later or three years later, we're like, oh, man.

还记得我们之前讨论过的那个点子吗？

You remember that thing we were kicking around?

比如，也许现在可以把它落实了。

Like, maybe we should build on that now.

所以我觉得这其实就是一个不断迭代、探索新想法的过程。

So I think it's really just an iterative process of of exploring new ideas.

Brian Armstrong 之前提到过，当他第一次向别人提出 USDC 这个想法时，对方的反应是：‘我不太确定。’

Brian Armstrong talked here about how when the USDC idea was pitched to him, he was like, I'm not sure.

‘听起来有点傻，不过行吧。’

Sounds kind of silly, but sure.

‘如果你们真想搞，那就放手去干。’

If you guys want to do it, then go for it.

显然，这后来成了 Coinbase 最成功的项目之一。

And obviously, that's become one of the biggest things out of Coinbase.