它很大，但好看吗？我们来聊聊…… | 第557期

所以，我认为这是一个好消息，我们正在向标准扣除方向迈进，而不是继续依赖分项扣除，但显然并不是所有听众现在都会选择标准扣除。

So anyway, I think it's good news that we are moving towards a standard deduction world and away from an itemized deduction world but it's certainly not universally true that everybody in the audience is now going to take the standard deduction.

仍然会有一些人选择分项扣除。

There are still gonna be some people itemizing.

他们往往更富裕，处于资产积累阶段而非退休阶段。

They're gonna tend to be more affluent and more in the accumulation phase than in the retirement phase.

但同样，也会有一些退休人员选择分项扣除。

But, again, there'll be some retirees too who take itemized deductions.

同意。

Agreed.

现在我们来谈谈之前几次提到过的话题。

Now let's talk about we've teased this a couple times.

有些因素可能会让更多人转向分项扣除，尤其是那些生活在高成本地区、房地产税占比更高的人群。

Something that might tip more people over into itemizing, especially maybe people in higher cost states in places where real estate taxes are are higher percentage.

所以，是的，我们来聊聊州和地方税的扣除。

So, yeah, let's talk about state and local tax deduction.

是的。

Yes.

这是一个充满政治争议的问题。

And this is a politically charged issue.

好的。

Okay.

当初刚通过时比现在更有争议。

It was when it got enacted at at first than it is now.

完全正确。

Oh, 100%.

顺便说一下，这项法律变更现在是临时的，四五年后又会变得充满政治争议。

So and by the way, this change in law is now temporary, and it will be politically charged again in four or five years.

敬请关注。

So stay tuned.

这件事还会出续集。

There'll be a sequel on this one.

所以是州和地方税。

So state and local taxes.

这要追溯到2017年。

This goes back to 2017.

当时国会中拥有庞大的共和党多数席位。

You had a large Republican majority in congress.

他们中的大多数人来自低税率州。

Most of them come from lower tax states.

他们对给予州和地方税扣除并不太感兴趣。

They're not so interested in giving a state local tax deduction.

因此，他们规定每份报税表对州和地方税的扣除上限为1万美元。

So they put in this $10,000 per tax return cap on the ability to deduct state and local taxes.

这伤害了高税率州的财富积累者。

That hurt accumulators in high tax states.

总的来说，也伤害了高房产税州的退休人员。

It hurt retirees in high property tax states, generally speaking.

好吧，快进到2025年，政治格局略有不同，共和党多数席位大幅减少，并且有一些来自蓝色州的共和党人。

Well, fast forward to 2025, there's a little bit of a different political profile where the Republican majority was much more narrow and had some blue state Republicans.

他们希望向选民表明：我们正在为你们争取扣除房产税或所得税的权利。

And they wanted to be able to tell their constituents, hey, we're fighting for you to to deduct those property taxes or income taxes.

因此，达成了一个妥协方案。

And so a compromise was raw debt.

这个妥协方案有些复杂，简而言之就是：

And the compromise is a little convoluted, boiled down.

从2025年开始，1万美元的上限将提高到4万美元。

The $10,000 cap is now gonna be $40,000 starting in 2025.

在未来四年里，这一上限将根据通货膨胀进行适当调整。

For the next four years, that cap will go will be increased for some adjustments for inflation.

五年后，上限将恢复为1万美元。

And then after five years, it goes back to the $10,000 cap.

这一问题将在四五年后再次被讨论，但在接下来的四年里，这主要将惠及观众中的两个群体。

This will be relitigated in four or five years, but for the next four years, this is mostly gonna help two groups in the audience.

一个是积累者，他们通常在职业生涯中支付更多的州税、州所得税和州房产税。

One is accumulators, right, who tend to pay more in state taxes, state income taxes during your working career, state property taxes.

现在你可能会达到这样一个阶段：当你把州税、房贷利息和慈善捐赠加在一起时，突然间你就可以选择逐项扣除。

You may get to a point now where, hey, you combine your state taxes with your mortgage interest, with your charitable contributions, all of a sudden you can itemize.

在退休人群方面，我认为这影响不会太大，但我设想了一个会受到显著影响的典型形象。

In the retiree world, I actually think this won't be that impactful, but I've sort of come up with the avatar where this will be impactful.

想象一位新泽西州的寡妇。

Picture a widow in New Jersey.

明白吗？

Okay?

她可能轻松支付高达25,000美元的州房产税。

She could easily be paying $25,000 in state property taxes.

我们来快速算一下她目前的标准扣除额，假设她年满65岁或以上，标准扣除额为17,007.50美元。

Well, you know, if we do some quick math on her current standard deduction, assuming she's 65 or older, it's $17,007.50.

而25,000美元的房产税显然超过了这个数额，因此她现在将成为逐项扣除者。

Well, those 25,000 in property taxes is clearly more than that, so she'll now become an itemizer.

这将有助于她的规划，因为标准扣除额尽管很高，但现在已无关紧要。

And this will help her with her planning because the standard deduction, as high as it is, is now irrelevant.

她将从25,000美元开始，然后还可以加入一些慈善捐赠。

She's gonna start at 25,000, and then she can get some charitable giving in there.

她可能没有房贷利息扣除，但即便如此，她的状况依然不错。

She probably doesn't have mortgage interest deductions, but still, she's gonna be doing just fine.

所以我会说，有三点。

So I would say well, three points.

第一，这一点将来可能会被重新讨论。

One, this is gonna be relitigated in the future.

第二，它有助于听众中的一些积累者。

Two is it helps some of the accumulators in the audience.

第三，就退休人员而言，总体而言，这将帮助那些生活在高房产税州的寡居退休人员。

And then three, in terms of the retirees, generally speaking, it's gonna help the widowed retiree in a high property tax state.

新泽西州就是这种情况的典型代表。

Think New Jersey is an avatar for that.

好的。

Okay.

或者我们的家乡纽约州。

Or our home New York state.

对吧？

Right?

我能想到长岛我们长大的那些房产，没错。

I I can think of properties on Long Island where we grew up and yeah.

每年的房产税轻松就能达到一万五千到两万美元。

Easily easily hit 15 to $20,000 in property taxes each year.

而且，关于规划从哪里开始，你的观点很对，你基本上可以相当确定这些房产税不会下降。

And, yeah, to your point about knowing where to start on planning, you pretty much know with a degree of certainty those property taxes are not going down.

它们只会朝一个方向走。

They're only going one way.

所以，如果你单靠房产税就已经超过了标准扣除额，不管收入如何——我认为这里的关键是，你谈的是资产积累者。

So, that if you're already over the standard deduction with just your property tax alone, regardless of the income and I think that's the important part here is, you're talking about accumulators.

所以，没错，这主要有两个部分：州和地方税。

So, right, there there's two major components of this, the state and local tax.

它包括你在州所得税申报表上缴纳的州税，以及你房产的财产税。

It's the state tax you pay on your state income tax return plus your property tax on your home.

据我所知，这就是两个主要组成部分。

Those are the two main components that I know of.

肖恩，当然你可以补充其他可能包含的内容，但这些大概占了人们申报的90%以上。

Sean, you can, of course, chime in on anything else that that might be included, but that's probably 90 plus percent of of what people are taking for that.

这占了绝大部分。

That's the lion's share.

我知道，或者至少据我了解，还有一定的可能性。

I know there's some limited ability or at least is my understanding.

我很久没深入研究过这个了，也许从来没研究过。

I've not dived into this in a long time, if ever.

有些情况下可以扣除州销售税，但我想你必须为此做出某种选择。

There's some ability to deduct state sales tax, but I think you have to, you know, make some sort of election on that.

好的。

Okay.

我不是，呃。

I'm not yeah.

别指望我来确认。

Don't look to me as a Yep.

这方面我不是权威。

Authority on that.

但我认为，这在那些没有所得税的州更适用。

But it it it applies, I think, in more, like, the non income tax states.

明白了。

Gotcha.

明白了。

Gotcha.

明白了。

Gotcha.

明白了。

Gotcha.

所以是的。

So yeah.

当肖恩提到累积时，这当然适用于所有在职人员，但自然地，如果你收入很高，比如高达50万美元，在一个5%的州所得税州，那就是25,000美元。

And when Sean says accumulator, that, of course, applies to anybody working, but, naturally, if you make a significant income, a dramatically higher income, just picture a $500,000 income, just back of the envelope in a 5% state tax, income tax state, that's 25,000.

也许你住在像长岛这样的地方，就像我们这里和肖恩讨论的那样，你的房产税是15,000美元。

Maybe you live in a, like, Long Island, like we're talking about here, Sean, and you have 15,000 property taxes.

仅这两项，你就已经达到了40,000美元的上限。

Just right there, you're at your 40,000 cap.

然后这些就变成逐项扣除项，再加上慈善捐赠和房贷利息。

And that then becomes itemized, Then you add on charitable contributions and mortgage interest.

这三项是大多数人逐项扣除的主要内容。

Those are the three main legs of the stool of what most people are itemizing.

当然还有一些边缘项目，但在绝大多数情况下，这三项是主要的扣除项目。

Of course, there's things at the margins, but in the vast majority of cases, those are the three main items.

所以在这种情况下，你就超了。

So in that case, you're over.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yes.

你超了。

You're over.

现在我为了完整起见，提一件事。

Now I will mention one thing for completeness.

对于限额的提高，有一个收入逐步取消的机制。

There's an income phase out on the increase to the cap.

我认为它从

I believe it starts

五万？我是不是说错了？

at five example screw it up?

不。

No.

你的例子正好在临界线上，所以没问题。

Your example is right on the border, so it's fine.

我认为收入门槛在50万到60万美元之间。

I believe it's between 500 and 600,000 of income.

这是一个非常奇特的问题，只有极少数美国人的收入会遇到这种情况。

It's this sort of odd issue that a very narrow slice of the American population is going to have.

想一想。

Think about it.

对吧？

Right?

有多少人的收入正好在五万到六万之间？

How many people get their income right between five and six?

是的。

Yes.

这种情况确实存在，但你知道，它只是人口中非常小的一部分。

That exists out there, but it's not you know, it's just not a a large segment of the population.

所以这一点我还没涉及，因为你看，

So this is something I have not even touched yet because it's like, look.

它只会影响人口中极其狭窄的一小部分。

It's gonna apply to such a narrow slice of the population.

我已经听到有人把它称为‘盐税鱼雷’，意思是当你收入更高、处于高税率档时，就会开始失去盐税抵扣限额。

I've already heard it referred to as the salt tax torpedo where essentially you you get more income, you're a high bracket, and you start losing your salt cap.

这太复杂了，不值得花太多时间讨论，但对于超高收入的积累者，我使用积累者策略。

It's way too complicated to spend much time on, but for very high earning accumulate, I use accumulators.

这是‘Bogleheads’圈子的术语。

It's a boggleheads term.

对吧？

Right?

基本上，人们仍然在工作。

Basically, people work still work.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，你会说，好吧。

You know, you say, okay.

对于这一小部分人群，你可能需要担心这种盐税抵免增加的逐步取消问题。

For a narrow slice of that population, you might have to worry about a phase out on this salt tax deduction increase.

天哪。

Oh my goodness.

但不管怎样。

But, anyhow.

明白了。

Gotcha.

这完全说得通。

That makes perfect sense.

谢谢收听Chooseify，并感谢你们对我们使命的支持。

Thanks for listening to Chooseify and for all your support of our mission here.

支持Chooseify最棒的方式，就是在你申请下一张奖励信用卡时，使用我们网站chooseify.com/cards上的卡片页面。

The absolute best way to support Chooseify is when you sign up for your next rewards credit card to use our cards page at chooseify.com/cards.

我会持续更新这个页面，因此它始终应该是你的首选资源。

I keep this page constantly updated, so it should always be the top resource for you.

感谢你成为我们社区的一员，并支持我们的工作。

Thanks for being part of our community and for your support.

好的，肖恩。

Alright, Sean.

接下来我们来谈谈新的老年人扣除政策。

We're gonna move on to there's a new senior deduction.

但在那之前，我想强调一下，我们刚才讨论的只是你特别指出的、适用于财务独立群体的几项内容。

But before we get there, I I just wanna say we're just discussing a handful of items that you've specifically earmarked as applicable to the FI community.

这项法律中还有很多其他内容。

There are a lot of other things in this this law.

让我们说得清楚一点。

Let's be entirely clear.

我正在查看 whitehouse.gov，我们可以稍微讨论一下这个。

I'm just looking at whitehouse.gov, and and we can talk a a little bit about this.

我怀疑这里面有更多细微差别，而不是这些非常粗略的表述。

I suspect there's nuance rather than these are are very crude things.

小费不用纳税。

No tax on tips.

加班费不用纳税。

No tax on overtime.

社会保障金不用纳税。

No tax on Social Security.

我怀疑实际情况比这要复杂得多，但除此之外还有很多其他税收条款。

I suspect it's much more nuanced than that, but there are a lot of additional tax provisions over and above what we're talking about today.

没错，布拉德。

That's right, Brad.

你知道吗？

You know what?

在为今天我们对话准备提纲时，我思考过：哪些条款对财务独立群体影响最大？

In preparing the outline for our conversation today, I said, what are gonna be those provisions that are most impactful for the FI community?

这并不意味着没有其他对财务独立群体也有影响的条款。

That doesn't mean there aren't other provisions that are impactful for the fi community.

对吧？

Right?

我们不可能，你知道的，一期播客就讲完所有内容。

We can't you know, it's one podcast episode.

我们不可能把每件事都从头到尾讲一遍，否则就变成乔·罗根式的播客了。

We can't do soup to nuts on everything, or it'd be it'd be a Joe Rogan experience podcast.

我认为在税务规则上，我们不希望那样。

And I think on tax rules, we don't want that.

完全同意。

Totally agreed.

但就像我在本集开头说的，正如我所说，你，好吧，是你在做这项具体工作。

So but like I said at the outset of the episode, as we, meaning you, okay, you're you're the one doing the legwork on this.

当你发现更多与金融社区相关的内容时，我们会再邀请你回来。

As you find more things that are pertinent to the fight community, we'll have you back on.

我们可以做一个简短的环节。

We can do a short segment.

我们也可以再做一整期节目。

We can do another entire episode.

因此，我绝不会认为这次对话就是关于这项宏伟法案的最终全面讨论，尽管这名字还是很难说出口。

So by no means do I expect this to be the exhaustive final talk on this one big beautiful bill, which is still hard to say out loud.

O BBB，我不确定我们是不是把它简写成这样了。

O BBB will I don't know if we're shorting it to that.

但好吧，我们来谈谈这个老年扣除项吧。

But, yeah, let's go to this senior deduction.

是的，布拉德。

Yes, Brad.

而且这也有一定的政治背景。

And this has some political origins too.

在竞选期间，特朗普总统承诺不对社会保障征税。

During the campaign, president Trump campaigned on a promise of no tax on Social Security.

这一承诺碰上了他们所说的‘鸟规则’。

That promise ran into they call it the bird rule.

对吧？

Right?

我不想让观众对这个感到厌烦，但本质上，取消对社会保障的征税会减少社会保障的资金。

So I don't wanna bore the audience on this, but essentially, eliminating the tax on Social Security would have reduced Social Security funding.

而他们用来通过这项税收法律的机制——协调程序，不允许对社会保障资金进行更改。

And the mechanism they used to pass this particular tax law, the reconciliation process doesn't allow for changes to Social Security funding.

这是我对此的总体理解。

That's my high level understanding of it.

如果有任何华盛顿的政策爱好者，如果我哪里说错了，请别挑我的错。于是他们说，好吧。

Any DC nerds out there, you know, please don't at me if I miss something So on they said, well, okay.

我们能做些什么来惠及老年人，同时又能在税收法律框架内负担得起呢？

What's something we could do to benefit senior citizens and that we could sort of afford under the tax law?

这就是每人6000美元扣除额的由来。

And that's the genesis of this $6,000 per person deduction.

它被称为老年人扣除额。

It's being called the senior deduction.

每人6000美元。

It's $6,000 per person.

一般来说，只有两个要求：到年底时，你年满65岁。

The only two requirements generally speaking are that by the end of the year, you are 65 years old.

也就是说，到12月31日，你已经过了60岁生日。

So by December 31, you've gotten your 60 birthday.

只要满足这一点，你就能获得这项扣除。

As long as that's true, you get it.

此外，你不能以已婚但单独申报的方式报税，而大多数退休人员本来就不会选择这种方式。

And then you can't file married filing separate, which most retirees aren't gonna do anyway.

因此，只要你满足这两个条件，通常就能获得这项扣除。

So as long as you meet those two criteria, generally speaking, you get this deduction.

这意味着退休人员的税负更轻了。

It means retirees are even more lightly taxed.

不过，这项扣除有收入逐步取消的限制，这一点很有趣。

Now it is subject to income phase outs, and this is interesting.

收入逐步取消的门槛实际上相当宽松。

The income phase outs are actually pretty generous.

对于单身人士，收入在7.5万美元至17.5万美元之间时，每增加一美元，扣除额减少6美分。

For singles, it's phased out 6¢ on the dollar between $75,000 and $175,000.

好的。

Okay.

这是针对单身人士的情况。

So that's singles.

对于已婚人士，以我目前的看法，我认为大多数专业人士也持相同观点：扣除额在收入15万美元至25万美元之间逐步取消。

For marrieds, my view as of now and I think most practitioners would have this view as of now, it phases out between 150,000 and $250,000 of income.

这很有趣。

It's interesting.

上周末，X平台上有一些讨论。

Over the weekend, there was some discussion on x.

有一小部分从业者认为，扣除线在15万到35万美元之间。

There's a handful of practitioners who say it phases out between 150,000 and $350,000.

所以这是一个需要进一步明确的细微差别。

So this is a little nuance that needs to be worked out.

我更倾向于认为扣除线是15万到25万美元，但我对此有个观察。

I I would bet on the $1.50 to two fifty phase out, but I'll make an observation on that.

如果你已经退休，且调整后总收入达到15万美元，那你过得很好了。

If you're retired and you're making a 150,000 in adjusted gross income, you're doing great.

这种扣除机制实际上不会影响到多少即使很富裕的退休人员。

This phase out thing isn't gonna hit all that many even affluent retirees.

所以这真是个好消息。

So that's really good news.

这是一个非常有力的扣除项目。

It's a very powerful deduction.

我只想提两点。

I'm just gonna mention two things.

第一，无论你是否在领取社会保障金，都无关紧要。

One, it doesn't matter if you are collecting Social Security or if you are not collecting Social Security.

我最初的一个观点是，如果你负担得起，推迟领取社会保障金是有道理的。

And one of my initial theses on this is it's an argument for delaying collecting Social Security if you can afford to do so.

不过，这是第一点。

So that's one thing though.

我是否在领取社会保障金，这有关系吗？

It has nothing to do am I collecting Social Security?

我不在领取社会保障金，这有关系吗？

Am I not collecting Social Security?

无关紧要。

Irrelevant.

第二点，即使你仍在工作，这一点也适用。

Second thing, it applies even if you're still working.

你是否退休与否都不影响你获得它。

You don't have to be retired or not retired to get it.

所以你可能在65岁之后仍在工作。

So you might still be working after age 65.

你可以获得这个。

You could get this.

现在，是的，如果你因为工作而赚了50万美元，那你就拿不到了。

Now, yes, if you're making $500,000 because you're working, well, now you don't get it.

明白吗？

Okay?

但无论如何，无论你是否退休、是否工作、是否领取社会保障，你都可以获得它。

But, yes, you can get it regardless of being retired, being working or not working, or collecting Social Security or not.

非常有趣。

Very interesting.

好的。

Okay.

因此，每位个人每年可享受6000美元的扣除额。

So this is a $6,000 annual deduction per individual.

所以，如果有一对已婚夫妇共同申报，且双方都年满65岁，他们除了标准扣除外，还能额外获得12000美元的扣除吗？

So if you have a married filing joint family here whose each of them are over 65, they would get their standard deduction plus an additional $12,000 of deductions in this case?

没错，你说得非常好。

That's exactly right, and you bring up a really good point.

无论你是选择标准扣除还是分项扣除，都能享受这项扣除。

You get this regardless of whether you take the standard deduction or you take an itemized deduction.

对吧？

Right?

因为这项政策旨在惠及所有符合条件的老年人。

Because they wanted this to be applicable for all seniors who otherwise qualify.

所以收入是关键，但无论你是选择分项扣除还是标准扣除，都可以享受这项扣除。

So the income matters, but for getting income, you can itemize your deductions and you take this or you could take the standard deduction and you take this.

事实上，粗略计算表明，对于一对在2025年都年满65岁或以上的已婚夫妇，在享受标准扣除、老年人额外标准扣除以及这项新的老年人扣除后，他们可以将46700美元的收入免于征税。

And in fact, some back of the envelope math reveals that for a married couple both 65 or older, in the year 2025, with the standard deduction, with the additional standard deduction that seniors get, and with this new senior deduction, they can exclude from income $46,700 of income.

这是一个真实的数字。

That's a real number.

真实数字。

Real number.

明白吗？

Okay?

我懂了。

And I get it.

46,700美元并不能让你成为洛克菲勒。

46,700 doesn't make you a Rockefeller.

你不会因此就能环球头等舱旅行，但今年、明年，你确实可以将这笔钱从收入中扣除。

You're not fine first class all over the world, but that's real money you could exclude from income this year, next year.

我们稍后再讨论这项政策的未来，但天啊，这影响真不小。

We'll talk about the future of this in a second, but, boy, that's pretty impactful.

是的。

Yeah.

这可不是小事。

That's not nothing.

所以，我的意思是，这对像我们这些65岁左右的财务自由圈人士来说意义重大，肖恩。

So, I mean, this is really significant for those of us in the Fi community who are 65, Sean.

对吧？

Right?

我们来假设一种情况，有个人已经还清了车贷和房贷。

Let's paint the hypothetical of somebody who has paid off cars, paid off house.

也许在2025年，你根本不需要担心任何储蓄问题。

Maybe their life in 2025, you don't have you don't have to worry about any kind of savings.

你也不用担心任何所得税问题。

You don't have to worry about any kind of income tax.

也许那时你每月的生活开销只有4000美元左右，而这一点几乎完全不需要缴纳联邦所得税。

Maybe your life at that point only costs about $4,000 a month, and that's pretty much covered right there on almost $0 of federal income tax liability.

这绝对不是小事。

That's not nothing at all.

这太了不起了。

It's tremendous.

不过，我要说有一个缺点。

Now I will say there is a drawback.

这是一项临时的减税政策。

It is a temporary tax cut.

所以我们又回到了2017年的《减税与就业法案》，但其中已经积累了政治压力。

So now we're back to 2017 and the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, but there's political pressure built in.

好吧。

Alright.

所以，到2029年新年那天，老年人扣除额将到期。

So what's gonna happen is New Year's Day twenty twenty nine, the senior deduction expires.

小费收入的扣除额也将到期。

The deduction on tip income expires.

某些加班收入的扣除额也将到期。

The deduction on certain overtime income expires.

因此，这种政治压力将再次回到系统中。

And so you're gonna have this political pressure back in the system.

等等。

Well, wait a minute.

如果我们什么都不做，老年人、服务员、女服务员、调酒师和某些蓝领工人将面临增税。

If we do nothing, we're gonna do tax hikes on seniors, waiters, waitresses, bartenders, and certain blue collar workers.

这对政客们来说不是一个有利的政治结果。

That's not a politically advantageous outcome for the politicians.

所以这里没有保证，但政治压力将推动延长这项老年人扣除政策。

So there's no guarantee here, but the political pressure will be built up to extend this senior deduction.

没有任何保证。

No guarantees.

目前它只持续四年，但可能会重演2017年的《减税与就业法案》。

It is only for four years right now, but it could just be a replay of the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yes.

它虽然是所谓的临时性政策，但却为自己创造了继续延期的政治压力。

It was, quote, unquote, temporary, but it set up its own future political pressure to get extended.

所以我们拭目以待。

So we'll see.

敬请关注。

Stay tuned.

但这可是个重大好消息。

But this is tremendous news.

事实上，2026年的46,700美元，再加上非逐项扣除者的慈善捐赠2,000美元，标准扣除额和额外标准扣除额合计将达到48,700美元，尚未考虑通胀调整。

And in fact, that 46,700 figure in 2026, add that nonitemizer charitable contribution 2,000, that goes to $48,700 before inflation adjustments for the standard deduction and the additional standard deduction.

因此，到2026年，如果我们年满65岁，情况可能会更加有利。

So 2026, we could be cooking with even more gas if we're 65 or older.

是的。

Yeah.

这太惊人了。

That is wild.

肖恩，在我们转到保费税收抵免之前，因为我觉得我们接下来要谈的重点就在这里，我想起2017年《减税与就业法案》中一个对我们许多小企业主来说很重要的条款，就是199A扣除，即合格商业收入（QBI）。

Sean, before we move on to the premium tax credits, because I think that's where we're gonna land the plane here, one item that I know came up in that 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, especially for us many small business owners, was the the one ninety nine a deduction, the qualified business income, QBI.

我相当确定这项扣除原本计划在今年年底，也就是2025年12月31日到期。

I'm pretty sure that was set to expire at the end of this year, the end 12/31/2025.

这个新的OBBB法案对此有影响吗？还是说它目前仍按原计划到期？

Did this new OBBB have any bearing on that, or is that still set to expire as of now?

说得好，布拉德。

Great point, Brad.

合格商业收入扣除已被永久延长，税率为20%，但我还没有深入研究具体细节。

Qualified business income deduction was permanently extended at a 20% rate, and I have not dug into the details on this.

我听说一些收入 phased-out 的门槛有所调整，但别拿我的话当真。

I understand some of the phase outs got modified, but don't quote me on that.

但对那些独立创业者和兼职者来说，这确实是好消息。

But yes, for the solopreneur out there, the side hustler, very good news.

小型企业、私营制造企业，这是个非常好的消息。

Small businesses, manufacturing businesses that are privately owned, very good news.

过去八年我们享有的20%合格业务收入扣除额将继续有效，并且被永久延长了。

The 20% qualified business income deduction we've enjoyed the last eight years will continue and was permanently extended as well.

所以这对部分听众来说是个非常好的消息。

So some very good news for a subset of the audience.

是的。

Yeah.

确实只针对一部分人，但对我们这些受益的人来说，这可能是我见过最惊人的扣除项了，肖恩。

Definitely for a subset, but for those of us who do benefit from that, that is, it's one of the wildest deductions I've ever seen, Sean.

本质上就是，当然，总有些细节需要注意。

It's just basically take you know, again, there's always nuance.

咨询你的专业人士之类的。

Contact your professional yada yada yada.

但说白了，你直接从你的业务收入中扣掉20%，在报税单上看到这种操作真的相当惊人。

But, I mean, essentially, you're lopping off 20% of your business income, which is really pretty wild to see in practice on that tax return.

所以，正如你所说，这对受益于这一政策的人而言是好消息。

So, yeah, like you said, that is good news for the people who are benefiting from that.

好的。

Alright.

那么，我们来谈谈保费税收抵免吧。

Well, let's talk about premium tax credits.

是的，布拉德。

Yeah, Brad.

税收法律很重要，它们没有做什么也同样重要。

So tax laws matter, and what they don't do also matters.

我们即将进入2026年。

So we are going into 2026.

在2026年，所谓的补贴悬崖——即联邦贫困线400%的门槛——将于2026年1月1日重新生效。

And in 2026, the so called subsidy cliff, the 400% of federal poverty level cliff, is scheduled to come back 01/01/2026.

这是一道关于收入的悬崖。

And this is a cliff on income.

它表示，如果你的收入超过联邦贫困线的400%，你将无法获得任何针对ACA医疗保险保费的保费税收抵免。

It says if your income is above 400% of federal poverty level, you get zero premium tax credit against your ACA medical insurance premiums.

好的。

Okay.

所以这是一件大事，有些人对此非常担忧。

So this is a big deal, and some people are very worried about this.

我要说，《一项宏伟法案》对此结果没有任何改变，但它有一个有趣的细节，我们稍后会谈到。

And I will say One Big Beautiful Bill does nothing to change that outcome, but it has an interesting wrinkle that we'll get to.

但我认为我们也需要退一步来看。

But I also think we have to step back.

这一切都有其历史背景，这段历史可以追溯到2014年。

All of this has history, and this history dates back to the year 2014.

很多很多年前，2014年是我们首次引入保费税收抵免的年份。

Many, many, many years ago, 2014 was the first year that we had premium tax credits.

我将2014年至2020年称为第一个阶段。

And I'm gonna refer to 2014 through 2020 as the first era.

在第一阶段，我们适用的是联邦贫困线400%的悬崖条款，影响保费税收抵免。

During the first era, we had the 400% of federal poverty level cliff applicable to premium tax credits.

对吧？

Right?

如果你的收入超过这个400%的门槛一美元，就完全没有保费税收抵免。

Your income was a dollar over that 400% figure, zero, no premium tax credits.

所以这是第一个错误。

So that's the first error.

然后我们来看第二个错误。

Then we go to the second error.

我们现在所处的第二个错误阶段，是2021年到2025年。

The second error we are in now, 2021 through 2025.

他们取消了这个悬崖条款。

They got rid of that cliff.

他们只是说，好吧。

They just said, okay.

你的收入超过400%。

Your income goes above 400%.

逐步递减。

Gradually slope it down.

好的。

Okay.

2026年将进入第三个阶段。

2026 starts the third era.

第三个阶段看起来很像第一个阶段，但稍好一些。

The third era looks a lot like the first era, but is a little better.

明白吗？

Okay?

我认为值得记住的是，在第一个阶段，许多早期退休者都获得了保费税收抵免。

And I think it's worth remembering that during the first era, plenty of early retirees got premium tax credits.

更重要的是，许多美国人实现了退休，提前退休，财务自由，无论你怎么表述他们的财务目标。

And more importantly, plenty of Americans got to retirement, early retirement, financial independence, however you wanna state their financial goals.

所以，是的，这个保费税收抵免问题确实很重要，但这并不意味着进入这个第三时代就代表人们无法获得保费税收抵免，也无法提前退休。

So, yes, this premium tax credit issue absolutely matters, but it doesn't mean just because we're going into this third era does not mean people can't get premium tax credits, does not mean people can't early retire.

我认为第三时代比第一时代更好。

And I would argue the third era is better than the first era.

虽然它不如第二时代好，但由于一项重大而美好的法案变更，它比第一时代更优。

Now it's not as good as the second era, but it's better than the first era because of a one big beautiful bill change.

这项重大法案变更的核心是：从2026年开始，所有青铜级ACA计划都将变为高免赔额健康计划。

So the big change in the one big beautiful bill here is starting in 2026, all bronze ACA plans will be high deductible health plans.

这意味着，如果你选择青铜级计划，就可以向健康储蓄账户（HSA）进行免赔额供款。

So that means if you have a bronze plan, you get to make a deductible contribution to a health savings account, an HSA.

所以我要称这种策略为‘青铜即黄金’规划。

So I'm gonna call this bronze is gold planning.

对吧？

Right?

如果你今天只记住三个词，并且你是一位提前退休者，那就记住：青铜即黄金。

If you remember three words from today's conversation and you're an early retiree, remember bronze is gold.

所以，对于2026年及以后，你可以选择注册一份青铜级ACA计划。

So what you could do is for 2026 and going forward, you sign up for a bronze ACA plan.

这可以降低你的保费，从而帮助节省开支。

That lowers your premium to start, which can help save money.

对吧？

Right?

这是第一个好处。

So that's the first benefit.

我们一开始就能获得更低的保费。

We have a lower premium off the bat.

对吧？

Right?

这很棒。

That's great.

青铜计划的保费更低。

Lower premiums go with the bronze.

然后我们说的是，我们现在是青铜计划，现在有资格进行HSA供款。

Then what we do is we say, well, we're on a bronze plan, and now we qualify for an HSA contribution.

因此，我们每年会开一张支票存入HSA账户。

And so what we do is we write a check to an HSA for the year.

如果我们已婚且双方都年满55岁，我粗略计算一下是10,007.50美元。

If we're married and both of us are over 55, my quick and dirty math on that is $10,007.50.

我们可以从收入中扣除这笔金额。

We can deduct from our income.

因此，我们实现了联邦层面的税收减免，在许多州还能享受州税减免。

So what we've done is we've created a federal and in many states, state tax deduction.

所以我们在这里省钱了。

So we're saving money there.

我们降低了调整后总收入（MAGI），从而避开了联邦贫困线400%的门槛。

We've lowered our modified adjusted gross income for that 400% of federal poverty level cliff.

因此，我们的收入现在要么降至符合资格的水平，要么提高了保费税收抵免的金额，因为一旦低于400%的门槛，收入越低，通常抵免金额就越高。

So now we either move our income to a place where we now qualify and or we increase the amount of the premium tax credit because once we get under that 400, the lower our income, generally speaking, the higher the credit.

所以这是个好消息。

So that's good news.

顺便说一下，通过向HSA存钱，我们建立了一个免税储备金。

And, oh, by the way, by throwing money in that HSA, we're creating a tax free reserve.

因此，如果我们今年有医疗支出，这些支出不会增加我们的应税收入。

So if we do have medical expenses during the year, those don't have to increase our taxable income.

我们不必动用传统IRA或出售资本增值资产来支付医疗费用，从而避免产生资本利得。

We don't have to go to our traditional IRA or sell a capital gain asset and trigger capital gains to fund that medical expense.

我们可以直接从HSA账户中支取资金来支付医疗费用。

We can just go into that HSA and pay for the medical expense out of the HSA.

我们现在有了一个免税支付医疗费用的方式。

We now have a tax free way of paying for that medical expense.

所以我认为，我们正在为2026年开始的保费税收抵免建立一个‘青铜即黄金’的优化循环。

So I think what we're setting up here is this bronze is gold optimization cycle for premium tax credits starting in 2026.

看。

Look.

我不是说每个人都应该选择青铜计划，但如果你是2026年开始的提前退休者，选择青铜计划确实有一些好处。

I'm not here to say everybody should go on a bronze plan, but, boy, there are some benefits to going on a bronze plan if you are an early retiree starting in 2026.

哇。

Wow.

好吧。

Okay.

这太惊人了。

That's remarkable.

而且，没错，正如你所说，我们这里从不提供任何建议。

And, yeah, of course, like you're saying, we're never giving advice here.

我们只是在讨论而已。

We're just talking through it.

但确实，当我对ACA计划进行分析时，我几乎总是发现，就我自己的情况而言——不是给任何人建议，只是对我自己而言——选择更高级别的计划，比如白银或黄金计划，本质上只是提前支付费用。

But, yeah, when I've done my analysis on the ACA plans, I almost always come up with the fact that for my own case again, not advice for anybody else, but for my own case, that getting any of the more significant plans, the silver or gold plans, I'm basically just prepaying for expenses.

而我喜欢拥有选择权，因为我身体很健康。

And I like having the optionality of I'm pretty healthy.

如果我选择青铜计划，最终如果那一年我病得很重，还是有对自付 deductible 等费用的上限的。

If I took a bronze plan, ultimately, if I got really sick that year, there still are caps on what you can pay towards your deductible out of pocket, etcetera.

当我为自己做计算时，发现这和直接购买黄金计划的保费几乎完全一样。

When I do the math for myself, it's pretty darn close to what the premiums would actually be if I just got the gold plan.

所以，本质上我是在为不健康的一年提前付费，这对我来说毫无意义。

So I'm, in essence, prepaying for an unhealthy year, which to me makes essentially zero sense.

我一直试图寻找 HSA 计划。

And I have been trying to find HSA plans.

我住在弗吉尼亚州，所以只能在 healthcare.gov 上查询我自己的计划。

I live in Virginia, so I can only look up my own plans on healthcare.gov.

但我发现 HSA 计划少得惊人，几乎找不到几个。

But I find fleetingly few, like, shockingly few HSA plans.

所以现在知道从 2026 年开始，所有青铜计划都允许我向 HSA 缴款，这很好。

So it's nice to know now starting in 2026 that all bronze plans allow me to contribute to an HSA.

正如我们所知，HSA 对财务独立群体的人来说是一个绝佳的选择。

And as we know, an HSA is really an amazing option for people in the Fi community.

当然，布拉德。

Absolutely, Brad.

而且我认为你看。

And I think look.

跌下那个悬崖可能会产生重大影响。

Falling off that cliff can be impactful.

如果仅仅花费三四千美元的免赔额就能避免跌下悬崖，获得数千美元的保费税收抵免，顺便还能获得税收减免，为什么不把它存入HSA呢？

And if it would have only taken, you know, 3 or $4,000 deduction to not fall off that cliff, get thousands of dollars of premium tax credits, and, oh, by the way, get a tax deduction, why not throw it in an HSA?

而且，好吧，关于青铜计划，我看到的另一点是，我们有时会忘记。

And, alright, the bronze plan you know, the other thing about premium tax credits I see is that we sometimes forget.

我们所做的一切都是为了优化保险成本，而保险成本有两个驱动因素。

All we're trying to do is optimize for insurance cost, and there are two drivers of insurance cost.

一个是计划的零售价，无论你是店里最富有的人还是最贫穷的人，这个价格都是一样的。

One is the retail rate for the plan, and that's the same for everybody whether you're the richest guy in the store or the poorest guy in the store.

这本身就是降低我们全年保险费用的一种方式。

That's a way by itself to lower our insurance premium expense for the year.

对吧？

Right?

我们选择青铜计划而不是黄金计划。

We sign up for a bronze instead of a gold.

对吧？

Right?

这是我们能调整的一个手段，第二个手段是降低收入，以便有资格获得保费税收抵免。

That's one lever we can pull, And then the second lever is lowering income such that we qualify for a premium tax credit.

布拉德，这实际上回到了布拉德·巴雷特非常在意的一个问题：追逐股息。

And, Brad, this actually goes back to a big Brad Barrett bugaboo chasing dividends.

对吧？

Right?

如果布拉德·巴雷特要告诉你关于实现财务自由的一件事，那就是：

If there's one thing Brad Barrett would tell you about going for financial independence, it's this.

不要追逐高收益。

Don't chase yield.

不要追逐股息。

Don't chase dividends.

我说得对吧，布拉德？

Am I right, Brad?

是的。

Yeah.

你对。

You're right.

你没错。

You are right.

你说到点子上了。

You nailed me.

是的。

Yeah.

但布拉德，这在保费税收抵免的讨论中是有实际应用的。

But, Brad, that has a practical application in the premium tax credit conversation.

低收益，也就是较低的股息，意味着在应税账户中产生的不可控应税收入更少，这有助于我们符合保费税收抵免的资格。

Low yield, I e lower dividends, I e lower uncontrolled taxable income in a taxable account helps us qualify for premium tax credit.

所以，这是另一个不追逐收益、不追逐收入的理由，特别是在应税账户中，这样我们可以保持较低的应税收入，提高获得保费税收抵免的几率。

So this is yet another reason not to chase yield, not to chase income, particularly in a taxable account so that we can keep our taxable income lower and up our chance of qualifying for premium tax credit.

不错。

Nice.

我喜欢这个。

I like it.

我非常喜欢。

I like it a lot.

所以，好吧。

So okay.

有几件事我要提前说明，以免有人对我大喊大叫，因为当我谈论股息时，这种情况经常发生。

Couple things lest people yell at me because often this happens when I talk about dividends.

所以，我对从普通持有指数基金中获得的股息没有任何意见。

So I have no issue with dividends that come from just a normal owning an index fund.

我认为金融独立社区中的很多人并不喜欢股息投资。

I think a lot of us in the Fi community don't love dividend investing.

我所说的‘股息投资’是带着大写的D和大写的I，作为一种明确的策略。

I use that with, like, a a capital d, capital I, like, as an overt strategy.

我认为这常常让人变得狭隘。

I think that often becomes myopic people.

它只是变成了某种我不太清楚的东西。

It just becomes part of, I don't know.

几乎像一种宗教，肖恩。

Almost like a religion, Sean.

我认为这才是我真正反对的地方，而且它确实降低了灵活性。

I think that's that's what I have a problem with and also that it does cut down on flexibility.

当你被迫产生应税事件时，这与金融独立社区的核心理念相悖——我们努力保持灵活性，尤其是税务上的灵活性，尽可能少缴税。

You are getting a forced taxable event when, really, one of the hallmarks of the Fi community is trying to preserve flexibility and trying to preserve especially our tax flexibility and to pay as little tax as we can.

我不喜欢被迫的应税事件。

I don't love forced taxable events.

所以，是的，感谢你给我另一个机会来谈谈股息。

So, yeah, thank you for allowing me another soapbox to to talk about dividends.

但我还想快速谈一下那个400%的悬崖。

But I did wanna talk about, just real quick, that 400% cliff.

是的。

Yes.

这很有趣，我当然想听听你的看法。

Now this is interesting, and I wanna hear you talk about this, obviously.

但我其实想谈谈一些关于税收等级如何运作的误解之间的相互作用。

But I'm actually gonna relay it to the interplay of of some misconceptions with how especially tax brackets work.

因为很多人，就像你说的，你和我都是注册会计师。

Because a lot of people, like you said, you know, you and I both happen to be CPAs.

你对这方面非常了解。

We're we're you are extremely knowledgeable in this.

我相对也了解，我们都知道税收等级是如何运作的。

I'm relatively knowledgeable, and we understand how the tax brackets work.

但很多人认为，哦，如果我进入了下一个税率档，只要多赚一美元，我之前所有的收入都会按新的所得税率征税。

But a lot of people think that, oh, if I am in the next bracket, if I'm just $1 over, then all my prior dollars get taxed at that new income tax rate.

比如，哦，我刚进入新的税率档。

Like, oh, I just moved into the new bracket.

但事实并非如此。

And it doesn't work that way.

这是一种累进所得税制度。

It's a graduated income tax system.

属于10%税率档的收入，按10%征税。

The dollars that apply to the 10% bracket are taxed at 10%.

属于12%税率档的收入，按12%征税。

The dollars that apply to the 12% are taxed at 12%.

你不会追溯性地重新计算之前的收入。

You don't retroactively go back.

在税法中，我很少看到这种情况：你达到某个金额后，之前所有的收入都会被惩罚性地征税。

There are very few things that I see in the tax code that work that way that it's you've reached this amount, and then you're basically getting penalized for all prior dollars.

ACA补贴和保费税收抵免的这个悬崖效应，完全是另一回事。

This cliff with the ACA subsidies, the premium tax credits, this is something entirely different.

这正是那种你仅仅超出一美元就会受到惩罚的情况。

This is one of those instances where you precisely are punished by being $1 over.

没错，布拉德。

Absolutely, Brad.

所以，是的。

And so yeah.

你完全正确，这极具惩罚性，使得多赚一美元变得非常有害。

You're you're absolutely right that this is highly punitive and makes an additional dollar of income very corrosive.

这里有一些不同的缓解策略。

And there are different mitigation tactics available here.

我之前提到过青铜计划与黄金计划，但想想在早期退休时优先使用应税资产，而不是像传统IRA分配那样，我们有成本回收，从而降低收入。

You know, I talked about bronze as gold planning, but think about things like living on taxable assets first in early retirement instead of say traditional IRA distributions where we got basis recovery, so our income's lower.

这可能是一个关键策略。

That can be a big one.

我们之前谈到过在应税账户中保持低收益。

We talked about keeping yield low in our taxable accounts.

这一点可能很重要。

That can be a big one.

另一个我认为未来会更重要的策略是战术性罗特账户本金提取。

Another one that's gonna be more important going forward, I think, is tactical Roth basis distributions.

对吧？

Right?

想象一下一位提前退休的人。

So think about an early retiree.

我这里有个数字。

So I I've got the number here.

根据我的笔记，2025年单个人的联邦贫困线400%是62,600美元。

The twenty twenty five, 400% of federal poverty level for a single individual is 62,600 according to my notes.

好的。

Okay.

这意味着，对于2026年的保费税收抵免，我们将使用前一年的联邦贫困线标准。

Well, that means for a 2026 premium tax credit, we apply the previous year's level of federal poverty.

如果我们收入达到62,601美元，2026年我们就将失去保费税收抵免资格。

If we get to $62,601 of income, we'd lose our premium tax credits in 2026.

但假设我们全年收入为58,000美元，而12月还需要5,000美元来维持生活。

But let's say we're at 58,000 of income for the year and we need 5,000 more to live on for December.

也许我们可以从罗斯IRA中提取5,000美元，使用早期的供款或更早的转换金额，最好是五年以上的资金。

Maybe we go into our Roth IRA and take 5,000 of our old contributions or even old conversions, preferably five years or older.

我们从罗斯IRA中提取5,000美元来覆盖这笔最后一笔开销。

We take a $5,000 distribution from our Roth IRA to cover that last amount.

有些人不喜欢在退休初期就动用罗斯IRA资金。

Now some people don't like draining Roth IRAs early in retirement.

我会说，你看，我刚才假设的这个人，他们如果从传统IRA提取或资本利得缴税，甚至可能因其他抵扣而受影响，但我们就假设他们确实要为此缴税，而这会让他们收入超过门槛，失去保费税收抵免资格。

I would say, look, you know, this person I just postulated, they're paying tax on the traditional IRA distribution or even on a capital gain or potentially depends on other deductions, but let's just assume they're paying tax on that, and it would push them over to not get a premium tax credit.

他们实际上是通过提取罗斯IRA资金来避免两种不同的税收。

They're essentially using a Roth IRA distribution to avoid two separate taxes.

现在，保费税收抵免实际上并不是一种税，但它表现得像税一样。

Now the premium tax credit really isn't a tax, but it behaves like a tax.

那么，既然使用罗斯 IRA 的本金可以避免两种税，而不是只在退休后期避免一种税，为什么不这么做呢？

So why not use our Roth IRA basis when it can avoid two taxes instead of just one tax later in retirement?

因此，我认为我们需要更谨慎、更周全地在五十余岁时有策略地提取罗斯 IRA 的本金，以优化保费税收抵免，同时也可以提取之前未报销的合格医疗费用的 HSA 资金。

So I think we need to start being more considerate and more thoughtful about thoughtfully taking out Roth basis in our fifties to optimize for premium tax credits and maybe take out old HSA previously unreimbursed qualified medical expenses.

我对这个做法有个小术语，叫‘HSA puck me’。

I have a little term for that, HSA puck me.

不错。

Nice.

是啊。

Yeah.

Puck me。

Puck me.

这个术语需要被创造出来，所以我发明了它。

It's a term that needed to be made up, so I made it up.

但这是我们旧的未报销的医疗费用。

But it's our old unreimbursed medical expenses.

在我们刚才举的每年5000美元的例子中，我们可以直接用这笔钱。

We could just take that for that last $5,000 in my little example for the year.

这是免税的，不会增加收入，也不会让那个人的收入超过联邦贫困线的400%。

It's tax free, doesn't trip income, doesn't push that person above the 400% of federal poverty level.

所以工具箱里是有工具的，我在网上也看到过一些相关讨论。

So there are tools in the toolbox, and I have seen this online a little bit.

对吧？

Right?

人们很担心，有时担忧会演变成悲观情绪。

Folks are worried, and sometimes worry becomes doomerism.

对吧？

Right?

你开始悲观了，天啊，糟了。

You start dooming, oh, no.

这太糟糕了。

This is terrible.

我认为现在是时候回头看看：工具箱里有哪些工具呢？

And I think now is the time to go back to, well, what are the tools in the toolbox?

有哪些可用的策略和方法？

What are the tactics and strategies available to me?

我刚刚在一期播客中列举了几种。

And I've just laid out a handful in one podcast episode.

黄金规划是青铜规划，保持普通收入处于低位，不要追逐股息，使用罗斯账户的本金提取，用应税资产支付早期退休开支，还有其他方法。

Bronze is gold planning, keep ordinary income low, don't chase dividends, Roth basis withdrawals, you know, use taxable assets to fund early retirement expenses, and there are others too.

所以这是一个问题。

So this is it's an issue.

它值得关注和考虑，但不值得恐慌。

It deserves attention and consideration, but it doesn't deserve panic.

是的。

Yeah.

我非常喜欢这一点。

I love that.

所以，是的，我认为这归根结底是灵活性的问题。

So, yeah, I think, ultimately, that comes down to flexibility.

你刚才说的就是这个意思。

That's what you're talking about there.

我认为，这也是为什么很多人，尤其是在财务自由圈子里的人，能从中受益。

And I think that, again, is why a lot of people, especially in the Fi community, can benefit.

我认为我们大多数人，很多人的账户里都有应税经纪账户。

I I think most of us, many of us, have taxable brokerage accounts.

我们有传统的401(k)和IRA账户。

We have our traditional four zero one k's, IRA's.

我们也有罗斯账户。

We also have Roth accounts.

拥有这些账户的少量组合从来都不是坏事。

To have a little smattering of each of these is never a bad thing.

我们并不是暗示这应该改变你已有的特定路径，如果你已经说过等等。

We're not implying that should change your particular path if you already said, wait.

你可能只是有足够的钱存入你的传统账户。

You might just have enough money to put into your traditional accounts.

我们绝不是说这是个糟糕的主意。

We're not saying that's a terrible idea by any means.

我们之前也提到过这一点，肖恩。

Again, we talked about that earlier, Sean.

对吧？

Right?

比如，你能获得税收减免，而现在你有这笔巨额标准扣除额。

Like, you get the tax deduction, and now you have this massive standard deduction.

好的。

Okay.

你会过得相当不错。

You're gonna do pretty well for yourself.

但对于那些有灵活性的人来说，这意味着要关注第二阶后果。

But for people who have the flexibility, it means look at the second order consequences.

对吧？

Right?

在这种情况下，收入超过400%的悬崖线意味着你将得不到任何保费税收抵免。

In this case, being above that 400% cliff means you get $0 of premium tax credits.

因此，当你需要动用资产时，如果你有健康储蓄账户（HSAs）、应税经纪账户——我们知道长期资本利得在相当大的金额内是免税的——再加上你的标准扣除额、罗斯账户本金和健康储蓄账户，

So when it comes time to live off your assets, if you have HSAs, if you have your taxable brokerage accounts where we know long term capital gains are excluded at a significant significant amount, you have your standard deduction, you have your Roth basis, you have your HSAs.

我的意思是，这些因素加起来可能让你的收入刚好控制在保费税收抵免悬崖线以下。

I mean, these things can add up to something that you're able to massage into keeping under that premium tax credit cliff.

而且，肖恩，正如你所说，这可是真金白银。

And, Sean, that's, as you said, that's real dollars.

这绝不是可以轻视的事情。

This is not something to scuff at.

所以我认为灵活性至关重要。

So I think that's critical, the flexibility.

我想快速补充一下，你刚才提到了罗斯账户的本金部分。

And I did wanna just chime in real quick with you're talking about Roth basis.

本质上，这就是你多年来存入的罗斯账户供款。

So, essentially, that's the Roth contributions that you've made over the years.

罗斯IRA的妙处在于，你可以随时无税无罚地取出供款，这笔钱并不被锁定。

And the cool thing about about Roth IRAs is you can always take out the contributions tax and penalty free at any time so that money is not locked up.

我认为，当人们在这种情况下问我时，这就是原因：嘿。

And I think this is why when people ask me when they're in this situation, hey.

我有能力把钱存入罗斯账户。

I have the ability to put money into a Roth.

这要么是肯定，要么是否定，非黑即白。

It's either a yes or no, a zero or one kind of thing.

我要么把钱存入罗斯账户，要么就不存。

I'm either gonna put money into a Roth or I'm not.

我有点担心这笔钱会被锁定。

I'm a little worried about it being locked up.

我对他们说，对于罗斯IRA账户来说，这完全不需要担心。

I say to them, that's not something to worry about at all with a Roth IRA account.

你存入的这笔钱实际上可以随时取出。

That money that you put in can literally be taken out at any point.

所以在这种情况下，塞恩，这非黑即白。

So why not do it in that scenario where, again, Sean, it's a zero or one.

在这个假设情境中，我只有这两个选择。

Those are my only two options in this hypothetical.

依我看来，你应该这么做，因为这样做没有任何弊端。

You should do it in my estimation because there's no downside to it.

你不能回头为之前的纳税年度进行存款。

You can't go back and do it for a prior tax year.

一旦错过，本质上就再也无法补救了。

Once you've missed this, you've missed it in essence.

我想这取决于具体的申报日期之类的规定，对吧？

And that I guess that that would be subject, right, to exact dates of filing and such.