CD187：安詹·桑达拉姆 - 独立新闻业

首先，你们是什么时候成立Stringer基金会的？

So first of all, when did you start the Stringer Foundation?

我们去年成立的。

We launched it last year.

好的。

Okay.

就在我五月份做完TED演讲之后。

Right after my Ted talk in about May.

这一年过得非常忙碌。

It's been, it's been a whirlwind of a year.

就像我提到的，我们已经获得了CNN、纽约客、纽约时报等主流媒体机构领导层的支持。

You know, as I mentioned, we've gotten these major media organizations, the leaders of them to support us.

还有保护记者委员会，以及这个领域的许多其他组织。

CNN, New Yorker, New York Times, Committee to Protect Journalists, whole bunch of organizations in this space.

我们当然也获得了501(c)(3)非营利组织资格。

We've obviously got our five zero one(three) status.

我们正与世界自由大会、人权基金会（HRF）等组织建立合作伙伴关系，这些关键支持正是我们相遇的地方。

We're building partnerships with organizations like the World Liberty Congress, the Human Rights Foundation, HRF, where we met, all kind of pivotal support.

我们已经启动了申请程序。

We've launched our applications.

我们的截止日期是两周后的12月31日。

Our deadline is December 31 in two weeks.

我们已经收到来自全球300多位申请者。

We've already got more than 300 applicants from around the world.

已有非常优秀的记者完成了申请流程。

We have really amazing journalists have gone through this.

这太棒了。

That's awesome.

这些真正杰出的人值得获得支持。

Really outstanding people who deserve support.

我们的评审团包括一些非常资深的专家，他们将负责最终评选。

And we have our jury, including some very prestigious folks who will choose.

我不会选择获奖者。

I won't choose the winners.

我建立了这个项目。

I built this.

我在这件事上插手太多了，无论如何都插手太多了。

I have a hand in this too much of a hand in this anyway.

所以将由一个独立评审团来选择获奖者。

And so it'll be a jury, an independent jury that chooses the winners.

我们有一位锚定捐赠者，他承担了我们的运营成本。

And we have an anchor donor who's covered our operational costs.

基本上我现在在外奔波主要筹集两样东西。

And basically I'm on the road raising two things.

我正在筹集资金发放给记者，我们的承诺是筹集的每一美元都将直接给到记者。我们正在探索传统募资和比特币募资，我们的网站接受比特币捐赠和传统捐赠。我们还在筹集像OpenSets那样的捐赠基金。

I'm raising money to hand out to journalists, you know, with the pitch that every dollar we raise will go straight to the journalists and we are, you know, exploring traditional fundraising, Bitcoin fundraising, our website accepts Bitcoin donations and traditional donations, and we're raising an endowment like OpenSets.

这是我们的长期可持续模式：筹集5000万美元，以4%的收益率产生200万美元的年度预算，用于维持我们精干的团队运营，并向记者直接发放100万美元现金。

That's our long term sustainable model where we raise $50,000,000 at zero at 4% that produces a $2,000,000 annual budget that funds our lean team and a million dollars in direct cash to journalists.

你是

Are you

要做什么？

gonna do?

打算投入国债吗？

Are putting in treasuries?

不知道。

Don't know.

你的4%。

Your 4%.

你打算怎么获得4%的收益？

How are you gonna get your 4%?

嗯，如果你投资比特币，收益应该超过4%，但具体要看捐赠者的情况。

Well, if you put a Bitcoin, it should be more than 4%, but probably, you know, it depends on the donor.

开放集合的捐赠基金每周波动幅度高达15%。

Open sets endowment moves up and down like 15% every week.

我不知道。

I don't know.

每个人都能承受那种波动，但我强烈推荐。

Everyone can stomach that volatility, but I highly recommend it.

确实如此。

Exactly.

我认为，无论是在传统股市还是比特币市场，如果你愿意承受那种波动并且有足够的缓冲资金，它会对你很有利。

I think, you know, if you're I think both in the traditional stock market and Bitcoin, if you're willing to stomach that kind of volatility and you have enough of a buffer, it can serve you well.

所以我会说，这取决于捐赠者。

So I would say, you know, depends on the donor.

我们接受比特币捐赠。

We are accepting donations Bitcoin.

我们将用比特币支付记者报酬，这比通过银行系统向全球记者付款要方便得多。

We will pay journalists in Bitcoin, it's just gonna be far easier than going through the banking system to pay journalists around the world.

方便太多了。

Way easier.

所以比特币，是的，它

So Bitcoin, yeah, it's

如果我是你，我会全力推动比特币。

Bitcoin's I would such a force it if I were you.

100%同意。

A 100%.

你知道吗，我们甚至制作了一个宣传视频，我在全球六个国家拍摄，成功招募了很多人。

And you know, we even made a sizzle video and I was filming in six countries around the world and it was just, I on boarded so many people.

OpenSats有严格的政策。

OpenSats, we have a strict policy.

一旦获得资助批准，就用比特币支付。

You get approved for a grant, you get paid in Bitcoin.

这有点不同，因为很多受助者是比特币开发者，但也有不少不是。

It's a little bit different because a lot of the recipients are Bitcoin developers, but a lot aren't as well.

我们资助的开源软件可以是间接相关的，不一定直接与比特币挂钩。

We fund open source software that is tangentially, it doesn't have to be directly Bitcoin related to be funded.

我们从没遇到过有人抱怨说‘天啊，你们直接转给我4000美元，这钱该怎么用？’

We've never had a single person complain be like, oh, you just sent me $4,000 How do I use it?

他们自己就能搞定。

They figure it out.

他们对获得资金支持感到非常高兴。

They're very happy for the financial support.

我们每月向40多个国家发放资助，惠及200名受助者。

We're sending out grants to 40 plus countries, 200 recipients a month.

通过银行汇款根本做不到这一点。

We can't do that with wires.

我甚至不确定银行汇款是否可行。

I don't even know if it's possible.

效率绝对远不及我们的方式。

Definitely not nearly as efficiently as we do it.

100%同意，我们情况完全一样。

A 100% and the same for us.

制作这个视频时，我在缅甸到乌干达等六个国家支付摄影师、协调人和制作人员的费用。

Made this video, I was paying cameramen and fixers and production people in six different countries from Myanmar to Uganda.

传统金融系统会吃掉他们所有的报酬作为银行转账手续费，这根本行不通。

There was no way the traditional system would have eaten up all their pay in bank transfer fees.

我把他们全都接入了Blue钱包，先发了一美元测试，他们都成功收到了。

And I onboarded all of them onto blue wallet, sent them a dollar, they received it.

然后我把剩余的款项都转给了他们。

I sent them the rest.

他们非常激动。

They were thrilled.

转账几乎是瞬间完成的。

It was just instantaneous.

现在他们用上了比特币，能看到自己的资产涨跌，但长期来看总体是上涨的。

And now they're on Bitcoin and they can see their portfolio go up and down, but you know, over the long term generally up.

我认为这是教育的一部分，支持人们摆脱金融体系的束缚，实现全球范围内的财务自由和可持续自给。

And I think it's education, it's supporting people to make themselves free of the financial system and sustainable, self sustaining across the world.

是的，我们将用比特币来支付记者报酬。

So yeah, we will use Bitcoin to pay journalists.

关于实际捐赠基金的结构，某种程度上这将取决于捐赠者。

I would say on the actual endowment, the structure, it's going to depend on to some degree on donors.

一些传统捐赠者、老派人士仍然非常非常担心比特币，但我们会尽可能推动比特币方向并在这方面保持积极态度。

Some traditional donors, old school folks are really, really still worried about Bitcoin, but I would say we would push in the direction of Bitcoin and be aggressive in that direction as much as we can.

我们不想排斥任何人。

We don't want to exclude anybody.

你有这个

You have that

有道理。

makes sense.

所以你们这里有两部分。

So you have two pieces here.

一个是资助金，另一个是奖项奖金。

I, you have the grants and then you have the, the prize, the award.

那么这300名申请人，他们是申请资助还是申请参与奖项评选？

So the 300 applicants, are they applying for grants or are they applying to be considered for the awards?

他们一直在全面申请。

They've been applying for across the board.

我们只是询问

We just It's asked

一份申请。

one them application.

这是一回事。

It's the same thing.

只需提交一份申请。

It's one application.

我们不想让流程变得繁琐。

We don't want to make it onerous.

我是一名记者。

I'm a journalist.

我填写过数百份毫无结果的申请。

I filled out hundreds of applications that went nowhere.

我不想做，我是个记者。

I don't want to, I'm a journalist.

我正在为记者们搭建这个平台。

I'm building this for journalists.

所以这是一个15到二十分钟的申请表，之后我们会内部评分。

So it's a fifteen to twenty minute application that we then score internally.

申请者来自不同经验背景的记者，从三年到二十年从业经验的都有。

It's from journalists across a range of experience like from three years of experience to twenty years of experience.

所以我们用这个来大致区分他们处于职业旅程的哪个阶段，以及他们符合什么资格。

So we use that to separate roughly where they are in their career journey and what they're eligible for.

经验较浅或资历较浅的记者更有可能获得资助，除非他们真的特别优秀；而经验更丰富的记者则有资格角逐奖项。

The earlier, the inexperienced journalists or less experienced journalists are more likely to win grants unless they're truly outstanding and the more experienced journalists will be eligible for the award.

所以这里有一个流程：有资助金、初级研究员项目、高级研究员项目，然后是奖项，也就是一系列荣誉。

So there's a pipeline, there's grants, there's a junior fellowship, there's a senior fellowship, and then there's the award, the string of prize.

这些工作我们内部完成。

And so we do that internally.

我们不会把这个负担加在他们身上。

We don't put that burden on them.

而且我们很灵活。

And we are flexible.

如果有位十年经验的记者做出了极其杰出的工作，他们当然有资格获奖。

If there's a journalist with ten years of experience who's just done incredibly outstanding work, then of course they're up for the price.

我们在申请中会评估他们如何利用现有资源开展工作。

You know, we measure in our application, we measure how much they've done with the resources that they have.

美国记者拥有丰富资源，不太可能面临监禁、账户冻结或家人遇害的风险，他们的评审标准自然比安哥拉记者高得多——后者每天都要面对入狱、断粮、账户被封等现实威胁。因此我们的评分系统设有勇气指数，考量记者面对危险时的坚持精神、报道类型、问责权力的方式、报道范围和故事规模。

You know, an American journalist who has access to a lot of resources, who's unlikely to be thrown in jail or have their bank accounts frozen, or, you know, their family members killed just has a higher bar than an Angolan journalist for whom that's a daily risk and reality to be thrown in prison, denied food and bank accounts shut down and stuff like that, and so if the scoring system that we have it's a courage index that weights you know the persistence of the journalists in the face of danger, the kind of journalists, the journalism they're doing, how they're holding power accountable, the scope, the scale, the story.

我们欢迎全球各地的申请者。

We invite applications applicants from around the world.

我们希望保持包容性。

We want to be inclusive.

我们不想排除任何人。

We don't want to exclude anybody.

我们不希望最终获奖者只是最佳女性记者、最佳全球南方记者、最佳安哥拉记者或最佳非洲记者。

We don't want to end up with prize winners being the best, you know, female journalist or the best global south journalist or the best Angolan journalist or the best African journalist.

不，我们只想要最优秀的记者，仅此而已。

No, we would just want the best journalist period.

这就是我们的主张。

And that's our, that's our pitch.

这就是我们为新闻界带来的价值。

That's our value add to the world of journalism.

而且我认为我们也将激励和推动全球北方记者，比如美国记者，提升他们的专业水平。

And I think we're also going to inspire and push global North journalists like American journalists to up their game.

要知道，与柬埔寨记者相比，你们拥有如此多的安全保障。

Know, you have so much security relative to a Cambodian journalist.

你们打算如何利用这些优势？

What are you doing with it?

你展现出足够的勇气了吗？

Are you showing as much courage?

要知道，推动、推动并报道那些需要被讲述的故事，那些许多媒体机构和当局不愿被发表的故事，为这些故事而奋斗。

You know, push, push and get these stories that need to be told that, you know, many media institutions and authorities don't want to be, don't want published push for those.

而我们将是那个认可你、表彰你并资助你的平台。

And we are the forum that will recognize and honor you and finance you.

因此获奖者将获得相当于半个诺贝尔奖的荣誉。

So the prize winner will be half a Nobel prize.

奖金是50万美元。

It's half $1,000,000.

高级研究员职位是15万美元，初级研究员是7.5万美元，而资助金则是一次性1万美元的拨款。

Senior fellowship is 150 ks junior fellowship is 75 ks and the grants are like one off 10 ks grants.

有些捐赠者提供的资助确实针对特定类型的受助人，比如他们会说我们有5万美元。

You know, some donors, the grants are really for certain specific kinds of donors that say, oh, we have like 50 ks.

就想直接给你们。

Just want to give it to you.

我们觉得太棒了。

We're like, great.

知道吗，尽管投进来。

Know, throw it in.

我们会通过我们的渠道，用同样的基础设施和流程来处理。

We'll send it through our pipeline, our same infrastructure and process.

资金会经过独立筛选的记者评审，我们会顺利发放款项，完全没问题。

It'll be vetted independently chosen journalists and we'll hand out the money, no problem.

钱进钱出，简单利落。

Money in money out.

是

Are

你打算用50k资助五名记者，每人10k一次到位对吗？

you going to, so 50 ks, that would be like five journalists, 10 ks one Exactly.

到时候你会给他们寄个小册子吗？

Time Are you going to send them like a little pamphlet?

这些就是你收买的记者吗？

Like these are the journalists you bought?

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yes.

而且我认为其中一些捐赠者是刚开始参与的，不是收买，抱歉。

And I think some of these donors are starting, not bought, sorry.

这些是

These are the

你支持的记者。

journalists you supported.

我认为其中一些捐赠者想从5万开始，但你知道，他们目前只有5万，或许随着时间推移能筹集到更多资源。

And I think some of these donors want to start with 50 ks, but you know, you know, the, or they have only 50 ks, but maybe over time they could bring together far greater resources.

所以我想给他们一个参与方式，而不是直接拒绝。

So I want to give them a way to participate without, without saying no to them.

在建设开放站点时，我们内部经常争论的一个问题是：大型慈善机构确实存在，而且是以一种糟糕的方式存在。

That's something that fight with a lot internally while building out open sites is that big charity is a real thing and in a bad way.

那些真正大型慈善机构的标准是，你知道的，他们会给你发——我举个例子来说吧。

The standard for the really large charities is, you know, they're sending you, mean, I'll use an example.

几年前我父亲生日时，我以他的名义向一个资助扫雷鼠的组织捐了款。

For my dad's birthday, couple years ago, donated in his name to an organization that funds mind clearing rats.

好吧。

Okay.

因为这听起来很疯狂，但也是为了做好事。

Because it was just crazy, but also it's for good cause.

但这些老鼠出去后，它们不会在地雷上爆炸。

But like these rats go out and they're not blowing up on the landmines.

它们实际上能嗅出地雷。

They actually can sniff the landmines.

它们经过训练可以嗅探地雷，然后告诉人类操作员去拆除地雷。

They're trained to sniff the landmines, and then they tell the human handler to go and remove the landmine.

而且它们体重很轻，碰到地雷时不会引爆。

And they're light enough that they don't blow up when they touch the landmine.

这就是为什么他们不用狗之类的动物。

That's why they don't use dogs or something like that.

它们足够聪明，又足够轻巧，能探测到地雷。

It's smart enough, but light enough to detect the landmines.

然后我们

And we get

其实在柬埔寨跟拍过这些排雷小队，他们

all these followed these crews in Cambodia actually where they're

这真的很酷。

like, it's pretty cool.

是啊，不过

Yeah, but

最酷的部分是，我爸爸能收到所有进展更新。

like, and like part of the cool part is like, my dad gets all the updates.

就像，你可以给老鼠起名字。

It's like, you get to name the rat.

然后老鼠被起名叫鲍勃。

And it's like the rats named Bob.

就像，鲍勃刚上幼儿园学前班，今天去上课学了这些东西之类的。

And it's like, Bob just went to pre K and then Bob went to class today and he learned this or whatever.

我们收到了所有这些邮件。

And we're getting all these emails.

显然邮件底部有个捐款按钮，收到这些邮件，巴拉巴拉。

And obviously there's like a donate button on the bottom and getting all these emails, blah, blah, blah.

鲍勃，今天要清空思绪。

Bob, clear your mind today.

你收到了所有这些更新。

You're getting all these updates.

这些东西成本很高，光是人力成本就花费巨大。

And that stuff costs like it costs a lot of money, like from like labor, just human labor alone.

我正在整理这些东西并发送出去。

I'm like putting together this stuff and sending it out.

以开放集合为例，我们已经选择退出大部分这类活动。

And so with open sets, for instance, like we've opted out of most of that.

我们没有那些光鲜亮丽的报告。

Like we don't have the glamorous reports.

我们不举办盛大的晚会。

We don't have the galas.

我们不做那些事情，以保持更高的效率和更精简的运作。

We don't do all that stuff to try and keep it more efficient and more lean.

你知道，按设计我们不会从捐款中抽成，但这确实在短期内影响了我们。

You know, by design, we don't take a cut of donations, but it kind of has, it definitely has hurt our at least short term.

这影响了我们筹集大规模捐款和获得更多捐赠的能力。

It has hurt our ability to raise scale donations and get more donations.

这是一个有趣的平衡术。

And it's an interesting balancing act.

我不确定你是否深入思考过这个问题，但若处理得当，这种做法确实有其道理。

I don't know if it's something you've thought about a lot because there's, there's definitely, credence to it when done properly.

我认为这种做法也容易滋生效率低下的问题。

But I think there's also a lot of room for inefficiency to kind of move into that.

是的●●●是的，我们正在准备年底的首次正式进展汇报，这是面向所有人的。

Yeah, we're actually putting together our end of the year update our first, you know, real update to everybody.

●●●你会收到一份。

You're going to receive one.

●●●我们正在精心制作。

We're crafting that.

●●●我尽量让所有流程自动化，同时保持内容的个性化和定制化。

I'm trying to automate everything as much as possible, but still customize and personalize it.

●●●这样人们才能真正感受到与我的联系。

So people really feel like there's a connection with me.

●●●我觉得我们的模式其实和你们的很相似。

I think it's, you know, our model is similar to yours.

我们希望尽可能精简节约。

We want to be as lean as cheap as possible.

我们希望200万美元年度预算中的大部分资金能直接给到记者。

We want the majority of money to go to the journalists out of the $2,000,000 annual budget.

其中100万美元是直接以现金形式发放给记者。

1,000,000 is straight cash to the journalists.

另外50万美元用于为记者提供程序化支持，包括心理健康、法律援助等各类支持。

Half 1,000,000 is programmatic support to the journalists, mental health, legal support, other kinds of support.

而我们团队的运营经费是50万美元。

And our team is half 1,000,000.

这非常精简。

It's super lean.

赛义德，你做得很好。

Said, you're good.

墨西哥城近期的污染问题，现在对我来说不是一年中最好的时节。

Pollution in Mexico City these days, and it's not the best time of the year for me.

但就是这样了。

But that's it.

我们是一家媒体机构。

We are a media organization.

作为一名关注这项事业的记者，我自然在媒体界有很多人脉。

I have naturally a lot of connections in the media being a journalist who care about this cause.

你知道，我在《纽约时报》的一位朋友说，我们可以探讨如何在《纽约时报》上宣传你们的决赛选手和获奖者。

You know, a friend of mine in the New York Times was like, yeah, let's explore how we can publicize your finalists and your winners in the New York Times.

我正在邀请克里斯蒂娜·阿曼普尔上我们的节目，至少让获奖者或决赛选手亮相。

I'm pitching Cristina Manpour to be on our show, at least have the winners or the finalists on show.

这些人脉对我们来说非常自然。

And these connections are very natural to us.

想想很多组织会花钱买宣传，而我们很幸运，因为我们天然拥有这些人脉。

Think where a lot of organizations would pay for publicity, we're lucky in the sense that we have those connections naturally.

所以我正尽力充分利用这一点。

So I'm trying to leverage that as much as I can.

不用付钱给公关公司。

Not pay PR firms.

前几天我遇到一个人，他们为另一个正在设立的奖项支付了50万美元用于媒体宣传活动。

I met someone a few days ago that paid half $1,000,000 for a media publicity campaign for another prize they were setting up.

太疯狂了。

Insane.

太疯狂了。

Insane.

这还是打了折的价格。

And that was at a discount.

他们雇了苹果公司。

They hired Apple.

那是个骗局。

That was a scam.

我也这么认为。

I think so.

因此，我相信要有机地发展，从小规模做起，缓慢建设，保持低运营成本，这样才能经受住风雨，创造出真正有价值的东西。

And so, I believe in building organically, building small, building slow, being able to low overhead so you can weather the storms that come your way and creating something.

这次成功的关键在于持久性。

The success of this is going to be longevity.

关键在于年复一年地坚持同样的流程、同样的声望标准、同样的诚信原则，持续筹集资金。

It's going to be doing, being consistent year after year, the same process, the same prestige, the same integrity, raising the funds.

随着时间的推移，它终将获得应有的声望，成为持久的基业。

And, over time it's just gonna gain the prestige prestige that, that, that it deserves and be a lasting infrastructure.

这就是我大致的方向。

And so that's my general, you know, drift.

这就是我的生活方式。

That's how I live.

正因如此，我才能以每篇报道500美元的微薄收入坚持新闻工作这么久，低成本生活的同时建立起一个具有广泛影响力的体系。

That's how I've been able to do journalism, you know, at $500 a story for so long, I've been able to live cheap and, you know, build an infrastructure that, that has a lot of impact.

影响力相当深远。

There's a lot of reach.

我的报道能触达数百万人，但成本却有意保持在非常低的水平。

My stories reach millions of people, but the costs are kept intentionally very low.

我认为我们支持的许多记者也是如此。

And I think the same thing is true of many of the journalists that we support.

这对我来说很有道理。

And that makes sense to me.

我的意思是，另一部分我想请教你见解的是——我在构建开放统计时一直在思考的问题，我称之为终身制问题，就像教师终身制。

I I mean, so the other piece, the other piece that I wanted to get your, your insight on or how you think about it, when I'm building out open stats is, that I've been thinking about a lot as I build out open sets is something I liked.

在我看来这是个双重问题。

I call the tenure problem, like teaching tenure.

第一个问题是很多人听到学术界的终身制时想到的——工作伦理的缺失开始出现。

And it's a twofold problem in my mind.

人们会变得懒惰，比如获得终身教职五六年后。

The first problem is I think what a lot of people think when they hear tenure in academia, which is that you have just a lack of work ethic happens.

人们会变得懒惰，比如获得终身教职五六年后。

People get lazy, like after five years, six years of being on tenure.

我是说，有些获得终身教职的教师非常优秀，但也有一部分教师基本上有了工作保障后就停止展示工作成果了。

I mean, there's some amazing teachers that are on tenure, but there's also a group of teachers that basically have job security and they just stop showing proof of work.

他们不再真正从事能推动实际进展的工作。

They stop actually doing real work that is actually moving the needle.

所以，这是问题之一。

So, that's one piece.

然后第二个问题是，我认为这会造成依赖性。

And then the second piece is I think it creates a dependency.

对吧？

Right?

这会形成对支付他们薪水的组织的依赖。

It creates this dependency on the organization that is funding their bills.

从本质上说，他们开始逐渐丧失独立性。

That at its core, they kind of start to lack independence.

至少在积极性和推动事务方面是如此。

I'm at least in in motivation and making things happen.

那么我为什么要提出这个问题呢？

And so why do I bring this up?

我提出这个是因为我们经常讨论，比如，假设我们达到了顶尖水平。

I bring this up because we talk about a lot of times, like, okay, we get like this, let's say top of the top.

因为我们资助的开源贡献者范围很广，从非常小的项目到那些互联网依赖却鲜为人知的传奇贡献者。

Cause we have a whole wide variety of open source contributors that we fund from like very small to just like really legendary contributors that the internet relies on and people don't realize the internet relies on.

大概有20个这样的人。

There's like 20 of them.

太不可思议了。

Incredible.

那么总结一下，你对长期资助获得者有什么看法？

Do you think about, okay, so just to sum this all up, how do you think about people getting long term grants?

因为另一方面，如果你是一位非常杰出的密码学家或开源贡献者，我们希望你能专注于开源软件开发。

Because the opposite side of that too is if you are an incredibly impressive cryptographer or open source contributor, We want you working on open source software.

我不希望你还要操心下一笔资助什么时候能拿到。

I don't want you to have to think about when you get the next grant.

比如，'我的资助六个月后就要结束了？'

Like, Oh, does my grant end in six months?

我需要续签并提交更多申请吗？

Do I need to renew it and add more applications?

我还能付得起房租吗？

Am I going to be able to afford my rent?

你肯定不想为这些事操心。

You don't want to have to think of all that.

你希望他们能真正自由地去做重要的事，专注于他们的技艺。

You want them to be like free to actually do what's important and focus on their craft.

这就是长期支持的好处。

So that's the benefit of long term support.

弊端就是我说的这个十年问题，你觉得该怎么看待？

The negative would be this ten year problem that I'm saying like, how do you think about that?

我觉得情况完全如你所说。

I think it's exactly as you described.

确实存在一个精英群体，他们值得这样的支持，并在新闻事业中证明了他们的奉献精神——世界上还有一群未被认可的精英，这就是当今的问题所在，尽管面临监禁、威胁、家人遇害或银行账户被冻结等困境，他们依然坚守新闻事业。

There's an elite group of people who are worth that and who've proven their commitment in journalism for certainly there's an elite group of people who are unrecognized in the world and that's the problem today, who have persisted in journalism despite you know being imprisoned and being threatened and having family members killed or bank accounts frozen and so on and still they persist.

他们仍在从事这项工作，我认为尽职调查的责任在于我们。

They still do this work and I think that burden of due diligence is on us.

我们必须选择那些值得获得这种无限制支持的坚定人士，我同意对绝大多数人来说，这种无限制支持可能导致结果参差不齐，因此要从小额资助开始，给予鼓励，告诉他们终身职位是为精英群体准备的，邀请他们加入这个精英行列。

We've got to choose the committed people who deserve that kind of unrestricted support and I agree for the vast majority that kind of unrest or for a lot of people that unrestricted support might lead to very variable outcomes and that's why you start with smaller grants and you you know give them some encouragement and you tell them that tenure is there for a very elite group come join and be part of that elite group.

过程中可能会遇到几个害群之马，我认为这是挑选真正 committed 记者所必须承担的成本，但我认同这种选拔已证明其奉献精神者的模式。

Maybe you get a couple of bad apples along the way I think that's the cost of doing this kind of work of picking these really committed journalists, but I would, I liked that model where you pick the people who've proven their commitment.

选择这些人的责任在于我们。

The burden is on us to choose those people.

他们无需再证明什么。

They don't need to prove anything.

他们已经向世界充分证明了自己，我们资助他们。

They've already proven themselves amply to the world and we fund them.

我认为对他们而言，你所谈论的这种无限制支持确实具有变革性意义。

And I think to them, the kind of unrestricted support that you're talking about is truly transformative.

而且我不认为是的。

And I don't think yeah.

不要

Don't

这真的完全不是我的专长领域。

it's not it's not my wheelhouse really at all.

但我有点好奇，从我的角度看，如果有那么10位真正优质的独立记者能不受约束地自由发挥。

But I'm like, I'm kind of curious, like from my perspective, like, I feel like if there's like, like 10 really quality independent journalists that are just allowed to cook, like, just run with it.

比如，你不用担心，你知道，你每年能拿到15万左右，相当于一份真正的薪水。

Like, you don't have to worry, you know, you're getting 150 ks a year or something like a real salary.

你每年能拿到一笔无附加条件的真实薪水，然后尽情创作，做出真正优质、无广告的独立新闻报道。

You're getting like a real salary per year with no strings attached and just cook, like make, just produce really good independent ad free journalism.

那样会产生显著的影响。

Like that would move the needle significantly.

感觉并不是这样。

Feel like that it's not.

我错了吗

Am I wrong

关于这点？

in that?

百分之百。

100%.

我觉得麦克阿瑟奖学金是个很好的类比。

I think a good analogy is the MacArthur grants.

他们挑选杰出人才，每年给予16万美元，持续五年，这对他们具有变革性意义

They pick outstanding people and they give them 160 ks a year for five years and it's transformative for

这个项目的背景是什么？

What's the background on that?

我不太了解这个

I'm not familiar with that.

麦克阿瑟天才奖是由麦克阿瑟基金会设立的——该基金会拥有巨额捐赠基金，每年会精选一批人才授予80万美元奖金，分五年发放

So the MacArthur Genius Award is, know, MacArthur Foundation has a huge endowment and they give 800 ks grants to a select group of people chosen every year, 800 ks grants spread over five years.

每年16万美元。

That's 160 per year.

这些资助面向艺术家、作家、诗人以及一些研究人员。

These are for artists and for writers and for, you know, poets, some researchers.

这对他们中的许多人来说具有变革性意义。

And it's transformative for a lot of them.

尤其对艺术家而言更是如此。

It's especially for the artists.

我可以作证，要知道，艺术家、记者群体确实如此，可惜该奖项仅对美国公民开放。

I can speak to that, you know, artists, journalists, unfortunately, it's only open to us citizens.

所以我不符合资格。

And so I'm not eligible.

在我的Ted演讲后，有几个人过来跟我说想提名我参选麦克阿瑟奖。

Most of the journalists, after my Ted talk, couple of people came up to me and said, we want to nominate you for MacArthur.

我当时就想，别费心了。

And I was like, don't bother.

我不是美国公民。

I'm not a US citizen.

我没有资格申请。

I'm not eligible.

而这正是我们试图解决的问题。

And that's the problem we're trying to fix.

我认为这些模式存在于小型生态系统中，确实能极大推动职业发展。

I think these models exist in these small ecosystems where it does supercharge careers.

我觉得如果能支持10名记者获得体面工资就很好了——虽然我们目前连10人的资金都没有，但任何时候我们账上都能维持三个人的资助。

I think having 10 journalists on a decent living wage, we don't even have funding for 10, but we'll have funding for three on our books at any given time.

这将具有变革性意义。

It would be transformative.

这不仅对他们具有变革性，对整个领域都是变革性的。

I don't be transformative, not only for them, it would be transformative.

想象一下整个行业都知道这种可能性的存在。

Think for the whole field to know that that exists.

我遇到过一些人

I've had people

拒绝在社会中像我这样追求优质新闻的人

reject And to me in society like getting quality journalism.

百分之百赞同

A 100%.

社会受益于拥有一支可持续、独立的记者队伍，他们不受制于任何人，在独立中蓬勃发展，并已证明能善用这种独立性——提供基于事实、公正深入的批判性爆炸性全球报道，揭露需要曝光的事件，讲述需要被倾听的故事。

Society benefits from having a sustainable, a sustained cohort of reporters who aren't beholden to anybody and who thrive in their independence and have proven to use that independence in a good way, you know, provide fact based even handed deep dive kind of really critical explosive reporting around the world, things that need to be exposed, stories that need to be told.

我真心认为新闻业——就我个人而言，驱使我前进的是在这些世界上最阴暗的角落进行报道时，总能遇见最鼓舞人心的人类。

I really think of journalism, you know, for myself, I think of what drives me is in some of these bleak places, in bleakest places in the world where I've reported, I find some of the most inspiring human beings.

我遇到过那些普通人，他们毫无保护、身无分文，却将自己奉献给了真正崇高的事业。

I found people who, ordinary people who have no protection, have little money, but give themselves to a really noble cause.

而我深感自己工作的重要部分就是记录并传递他们的故事。

And I feel a big part of my job is to capture their stories, transmit those stories.

我笔下描写的许多人，往往很快就离世了。

A lot of these people whom I'm writing about, they die pretty quickly.

他们在我见过后的几周、几个月或几年内就去世了，因为他们从事的是极高风险的工作。

They died like, you know, weeks, months, years after I've seen them because they're doing really high risk work.

我的职责是确保他们的精神不灭，让他们的精神、工作、事业以及所冒的风险能激励后人及未来世代。我认为这正是我所从事的新闻事业的核心——一种极具人文关怀、激励人心并彰显人性光辉的新闻。

My job is to make sure that their spirit doesn't die and that their spirit, their work, their cause, the risk they took inspires people after their past and future generations, and I think that's kind of at the core of what journalism, the kind of journalism that I do, should be about very humane inspiring journalism and elevating the best of us.

我认为我们需要支持并扩大对这类报道的资助。新闻业陷入危机的部分原因在于，记者们总被告知这类鼓舞人心的故事无法变现。

And I think you know we want to support, we want to expand the support for this kind of reporting because journalism, part of the reason why it's in crisis is because journalists have been told that you can't, these kinds of inspiring stories are not what you can monetize.

你们靠信息变现。

You monetize information.

可悲的是，在人工智能时代，信息已成为商品，我们所有人都被商品化了。

And unfortunately in the age of AI information is now commodity and we've all been commodified.

就像AI聊天机器人正在抓取《纽约时报》网站内容，而《纽约时报》已经起诉了OpenAI。

Like the AI chatbots are scraping the New York times website and the New York times has sued open AI.

我们正沦为AI引擎的数据饲料，人们通过这些引擎获取信息。

And we're just like becoming data feeders for AI engines where people are getting their information.

我认为新闻业必须回归核心原则——这也是我最初从事这类工作的初衷：寻找这些鼓舞人心的故事并传播它们，在全球范围内提升这些人性的灯塔，无论它们身处何方。

And I think journalism has to go back to that core principle for why we why I started off doing this kind of work which was which was to find these inspiring stories and transmit them and provide, you know, elevate these beacons of inspiration of humanity around the world, wherever they are.

说得太好了。

Love that.

是啊。

Yeah.

我是说，AI这部分本身就很有意思。

I mean, the AI piece is, is fascinating in its own right.

看看后续发展会很有趣。

It should be interesting to see how that plays out.

我认为没人能真正确定各种不同的结果。

I don't think anyone can be really certain on the different, you know, outcomes.

有太多变量在起作用，而且现在这些工具的运行方式和人们的使用方式都还处于非常早期的阶段。

There's so many different variables at play and it's, it's still so very, it's, it's very early on how these tools are working and people are using them.

还有它们存在的陷阱。

And the pitfalls of them as well.

我想在这里稍微转换一下话题。

I mean, I want to change paces real quick here.

在我们结束之前，我想说，我主要关注的一个方向就是所谓的价值交换模式。

Before we wrap, I mean, so one of my main focuses has been something called value for value.

这既涉及比特币领域，也涉及Noster平台以及在Noster上的建设。

And that's been both on the Bitcoin side and on the Noster side and building on Noster.

这个节目已经持续五年了，没有广告，没有赞助，也没有标题党。

And this show, this show has been going on for five years with no ads, with no sponsors, No clickbait.

我们不做那种夸张的封面图那种垃圾内容。

We don't do the big, you know, open mouth thumbnail stuff bullshit.

我们不会搞那些博眼球的标题，什么紧急广播啊世界末日之类的。

We don't do like the big engagement headlines, you know, emergency broadcast, you know, this is going to end the world.

诸如此类的噱头。

Yada yada yada yada.

某种程度上这种方式是有效的。

And it's been working to a degree.

我是说，都已经五年了。

I mean, it's been five years.

你知道，

You know,

有些集数的捐赠收入堪比《纽约时报》的文章，显然这是个非常低的标准，但这也非常明显，对吧？

some episodes earn from donations as much as a New York Times article, which is apparently is just a very low bar, but it's also been very obvious, right?

自从这个节目创立以来，我看到很多节目来了又走，它们在收入和观众规模上都远超我们很多倍。

Like I've seen shows come and go since this was created that have made many, many multiples in terms of money and many, many multiples in terms of audience size.

对吧？

Right?

它们某种程度上是相辅相成的。

And they kind of go hand in hand.

我确实认为，我觉得存在一定数量的人在意识形态上足够一致，以至于不那么在乎金钱。

I do think, I think there's an, you know, I think there are a decent amount of people that are ideologically aligned enough to not care as much about the money.

显然人们需要生存。

Obviously people need to live.

从根本上说他们还是在乎钱的，对吧？

They care about money at its core, right?

金钱作为生存、维持和繁荣的工具。

Money as a tool to survive and sustain and thrive.

但我认为观众这部分可能更难从意识形态上理解。

But I think the audience piece is maybe even that's hard to wrap your head around ideologically.

因为如果你认为自己做得很好，你认为你传播的信号对社会和人们很重要，这就是你这么做的原因，我觉得当人们感觉自己在白费力气，只能触及像Mr.

Because if you think you're doing good work and you think the signal you're spreading is important for society and important for people, and that's why you're doing it, I think it can get quite frustrating for people feel like they're, you know, spinning their wheels and hitting a fraction of the audience that like Mr.

Beast那样的一小部分观众时，会感到相当沮丧。

Beast is hitting or I don't know.

我一时想不出太多例子，但它们无处不在。

I don't really have that many examples on the top of my head, but they're all over the place.

那些顶尖人物，都是顶尖人物对吧？

The top guys all the top guys right?

带着那些狗屁的互动数据。

With the engagement bullshit.

你又不看他们的内容。

You don't watch them.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以我看到了缩略图。

So I see the thumbnails.

我确实认为那里存在真正的机会。

I saw I really do think there's a real opportunity there.

我认为确实存在机会。

I think there's a real opportunity.

所以受众部分可能再次成为关键——我认为如果我们能解决这个问题，这正是像Noster这样的开放协议的魅力所在，众多独立个体能相互叠加网络效应，有点像Substack成功的关键所在——你不是在孤军奋战地建立邮件通讯或播客。

So the audience piece is probably once I get once again, I think if we can solve that piece, which is, is the beauty of an open protocol like Noster, where a bunch of independence kind of compound off of each other's network effect, kind of like an open version of, I think what led to a lot of the success of Substack, which is like, you're not on your own building out an email newsletter or a podcast.

你是一个更大的发现机制的一部分，这个机制能产生叠加效应。

You're part of like a greater discovery mechanism that compounds on top of each other.

混合价值或比特币的价值交换可能开辟一条可持续道路，至少能让部分人从依赖资助和奖金转向直接受众资助。

Mixed or the value for value Bitcoin could lead to a sustainable path where some of these at least, you know, I guess across the spectrum where some people can transition from grants and prize money to just like direct audience funding.

至少从方向上来说，你认同这个观点吗？

Is this something that at least directionally you agree with as a viewpoint?

我认为建立受众群体是我们必须关注的重点，对吧？

I think building an audience is where we have to be, right?

如何将这些受众变现才是关键问题。

How you monetize that audience is the big question.

我记得你之前在节目或对话中提到，这往往会演变成标题党，被受众所左右。

I think your point earlier on the show or in our conversation was that that often devolves into clickbait and you being bought by audiences.

这是个风险。

That's a risk.

几年前我意识到，虽然我的故事能在一些最具影响力的媒体上发表，触达数百万人。

What I realized a couple of years ago was that I'm able to get my stories published in some of the most, you know, in media with the widest reach, it's reaching millions of people.

但我只拿到500美元报酬。

I'm being paid $500.

我的故事就值500美元吗？

Is my story worth $500?

不，我认为远不止这个价值。

No, I don't think it is.

我认为它价值连城，因为能触达这么多人。

I think it's worth a lot because it's reaching so many people.

那么你该如何将其变现呢？

And so how do you monetize that?

能申请到资助吗？

Can you get grants?

能否建立由慈善资金支持的组织来实现？

Can you build organizations that, you know, philanthropically fund that?

Stringer基金会就是这样诞生的。

That's how the Stringer Foundation came to be.

资金支持。

Funding.

没错。

Yeah.

这样做的问题在于——比如你正在享受《纽约时报》网络效应的红利，对吧？

The problem with that is so you're getting, you're getting the benefit of New York times network effect, for instance, right?

他们正在向所有员工分发内容。

They're syndicating it out to all their people.

但实际上你并没有真正获得那些受众，只是短暂地吸引了一些注意力。

But then you're not, you're, you're actually not getting that audience where you're getting them for a brief moment in the sun.

对吧？

Right?

就像这个播客，虽然我认为它对人们非常有价值，但增长速度却比同类产品慢得多。因为当有人分享其中一期节目时，他们会喜欢并分享给亲友，然后点击订阅。

Like even like the beauty, even at least something like this podcast, which once again, like I said, I I think has been very valuable to people, but has grown much slower than its peers is that once someone shares one of these shows, like, they like it, they share with their friends and family, then they click subscribe.

这样他们就成为了Dispatch生态系统的一部分。

And then they're part of the dispatch ecosystem.

是的。

Yeah.

但这种情况并没有发生。

But that doesn't happen.

这种情况并未出现。

That doesn't happen.

比如，如果我错了请纠正，但我认为将其作为启动机制可能更合理，利用他人的网络效应。

Like, Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like it makes more sense to maybe use it as a bootstrap mechanism, taking advantage of other people's network effects.

但理想情况下，你需要一个真正属于自己、能掌控的地方，能把他们带回家的地方。

But ideally, need a place that you actually own, that you control, that you can bring them back home to.

这样你就不必总是像在租用别人的土地一样。

So you're not constantly basically like renting land from someone else.

我同意这个观点。

I agree with that.

我认为最终你必须拥有自己的媒体机构。

I think ultimately you have to own your own media organization.

而且我认为现在已经有工具可以实现这一点。

And I think the tools are out there today to do that.

是的，互联网就是这样，我认为马斯克和比特币为回归互联网最初理念提供了某种希望，因为如今的互联网已变成赢家通吃的环境。

Yeah, it's just again the internet, you know, that's where I think Master and Bitcoin offers some kind of hope for a more, you know, the original going back to the original idea of the internet, because the internet today, what it's become is a winner take all kind of environment.

我看到很多很多记者尝试建立自己的媒体机构。

And I don't see, I see many, many journalists who've tried to build their own media organizations.

坦白说，他们更多依赖于捐赠，而非通过商业广告变现来维持工作。

And frankly, they're more, they're more dependent on donations than from any monetizing, you know, commercial monetizing ads for their work.

那些在广告变现上取得成功的，往往就像你说的，是靠点击诱饵、煽动性内容或各种负面消息，这些都不是我们想看到的。

The ones who tend to be successful with the ads tend to be, like you said, clickbait engagement, rage bait, all kinds of negative stuff that you don't want to see.

我们该如何为互联网解决这个问题？如何解决内容分发难题？很难说。但我希望我之前提到的观点——回归人文新闻，讲述鼓舞人心的故事——或许人们会关心并愿意为此付费，这可能比单纯提供时效信息或通讯社式报道更容易实现商业化。

How do we solve that for the internet how do we solve that distribution problem hard to say hopeful that you know what I spoke about earlier one of my thesis is that you know humane journalism going back to those inspiring stories maybe people will care for and pay for that and that's going to be easier to monetize than information providing timely or information like the wires do.

也许这就是新闻业未来的演变方向。

Maybe that's how the, the news industry is going to evolve.

我

I

意思是，迄今为止最成功的模式是什么。

mean, what's been successful most successful so far.

如果我说错了请纠正我，在我看来最成功的是分析和评论，因为这确实是稀缺资源。

And correct me if I'm wrong in my opinion is like analysis and opinion, because that is actually scarce.

对吧。

Right.

并且基于可信度。

And based on credibility.

对。

Right.

对西方某些特定受众来说。

To certain audience in, in sort of in the West.

是的。

Yes.

分析与评论，这类评论员已成功为自己开辟了一片天地，他们会上CNBC之类的平台，你知道，这其实是一种营销手段。

Analysis and opinion, those kinds of commentators have been able to carve out a niche for themselves and they go on CNBC or whatever, you know, and then, you know, it's a marketing tool.

这是顶端

It's the top

的漏斗，将他们引入自己的Substack。

of funnel to bring them into their sub stack.

正是如此。

Exactly.

因此我认为记者作为创业者、新闻创业者，这类训练还不够普及，好吧，你做得不错并且已经建立了一定品牌。

And so I think journalists as entrepreneurs, news entrepreneurs, that kind of training hasn't been pervasive enough for, okay, you've, you're doing good work and you've gotten certain brand name.

那么，通过什么机制才能让这成为可持续的职业呢？

What is the, what is the mechanism by which you can make this a sustainable career?

是啊，我确信Substack会告诉我们这在他们的平台上可行。

Yeah, I'm sure Substack will tell us that it's possible on Substack.

根据我与许多记者打交道的经验，要获得可持续的受众基础真的很难。

My experience with many journalists is it's really hard to get a sustainable kind of audience base.

这

The

Substack的问题在于归根结底它是个中心化平台，你只是获得许可在那里生存，他们要从每笔收入中抽成，还要决定你的命运。

problem with Substack is that at the end of the day, it's a centralized platform and you're living there with their permission and they're going to take a cut of everything and they're going to choose your destiny.

他们可以随心所欲地封禁你，就像X平台、TikTok或Facebook那样。

They can choose to ban you at will if they want to, just like X can or TikTok or Facebook.

我其实很喜欢你刚才提出的那个框架。

I actually like your framing that you said.

这虽然只是顺便一提，但要让独立新闻业蓬勃发展，我们基本上需要所有独立记者拥有自己的媒体机构。

It's kind of in passing, but the like, for independent journalism to thrive, we basically need all the independent journalists own their own media organization.

也许这就是Noster作为协议的意义所在。

And maybe that's what Noster is as a protocol.

也许Noster是一种协议，能让人们在无需任何基础设施的情况下拥有自己的媒体机构，真正实现零基础设施。

Maybe Noster is a protocol that enables people to own their own media organization without any infrastructure, zero infrastructure.

你完全不需要运营服务器之类的东西。

You don't have to run servers or anything.

没错，正是如此。

Yeah, exactly.

这是个关键部分，对吧？

Which is a key part, right?

很多摩擦就来源于此。

That's where a lot of the friction lies.

我是说，我们都亲眼见证过。

I mean, we've seen it.

我们已经看到很多人尝试拥有自己的网络服务器，做所有这些事情。

We've seen a bunch of these guys try and, you know, own their own web servers, do all this other stuff.

而这真的、真的很难跳过

And it's just, it's a really, really hard way to skip

100%同意。

a 100%.

我认为在Noster中，你拥有自己的受众。

I think in with noster, you own your audience.

与Substack不同，Substack拥有你的受众，他们可以随时切断你与受众的联系。

Unlike with Substack, Substack owns your audience and they can cut you off from your audience at any time.

因此Noster提供的优势在于你拥有自己的受众，并且可以保留你构建的一切。

And so where Noster provides that edge is that you own your audience and whatever you build, get to keep.

所以我认为这项技术显然还处于早期阶段，但激励记者参与，向他们证明这是长期可行的方案，同时让短期激励物有所值，这可能会很强大。

So I think it's early days, obviously for this technology, but getting journalists incentivized, proving to journalists that this is a way longer term that will work, but making those short term incentives worth it can be powerful.

是的。

Yeah.

具体到Nastro这个平台，它本质上就是一个典型的鸡与蛋网络效应和自举机制，无论从内容生产端还是读者消费端、受众端都是如此。

I mean, it's very much with Nastro specifically, it's very much a chicken and egg network effect, bootstrapping mechanism, both on the content side and on the consumer reader side, audience side.

也许再说一次，我对此持中立态度。

And maybe once again, I'm a bit agnostic on this.

可能是其他类型的开放协议，但我认为发展方向应该是这个方向。

Maybe it's some other kind of open protocol, but I think it's that direction that needs to go in.

我之前私下跟你说过，现在公开重申：在引入那些受尊敬、真正高质量且工作独立的记者到Sinostra平台这件事上，只要我能帮上忙，请把我和Freaks团队视为你们的资源。

I've said to you privately, and I'll just repeat it publicly, but anything I can do to be helpful on onboarding, respected, really quality proof of work independent journalist, Sinostra, consider me a resource, consider the freaks a resource.

我觉得你正在击中我们的要害。

I think you're hitting us.

我之前私下也跟你聊过这个。

I've talked to you about this privately as well.

你正赶上比特币市场一个奇怪的时期。

You're hitting us at a weird time in the Bitcoin markets.

对于那些碰巧有财务收益的怪人们，你们可以通过用比特币向Stringer基金会捐款来获得税收减免。

To the freaks that have any of you freaks out there that happen to have financial gains, you can get a tax deduction by donating to the Stringer Foundation with Bitcoin.

但我想说的是，我认为怪人们可以在Nastor上通过转发、打赏、互动、回复等方式提供很大帮助，因为回复和互动确实也很重要，这能创造出人类所依赖的互动元素。

But I will say where I think the freaks can be quite helpful is retweeting on Nastor, zapping, engaging, replying, like replies and engagement really are important as well because it creates that interactive element that I think humans thrive on.

谢谢。

Thank you.

非常感谢你的公开支持。

I really appreciate the shout out.

看到Divine加入Noster让我很兴奋，我认为这类举措会让Noster更加主流化。

I was excited to see Divine go on Noster, and I think initiatives like that will make Noster more mainstream.

我是说，Divine应该还没上线吧，不过确实。

Mean, Divine's not live yet, don't think, but yeah.

方向。

Direction.

好的。

Okay.

我以为已经有很多

I thought there was already a lot of

可能是吧。

It might be.

可能像Waitlist直播那样，但围绕它的炒作很多。

It might be like Waitlist live, but there's a lot of hype around it.

这是Vine的重启版，Vine是TikTok出现之前的短视频平台。

It's the reboot of vine, which is the short video platform that existed before Tik TOK existed.

没错。

Right.

总之我想说的是，比特币确实是我们支付记者报酬的收入来源之一。

Well, I guess all that to say is yes, I spoke about Bitcoin being source of revenue for us, of a way we pay the journalists.

目前这种方式已经非常实用，但你刚才说的正是未来需要发展的方向。

Already it's hugely useful that way, but I think what you said just now is exactly the direction in which this needs to go.

我认为这些核心价值观——建立自己的媒体组织、拥有自己的受众群体——至关重要。

I think those core values, core principles of build your own media organization, own your own audience.

这是一个技术平台。

Here's a tech platform.

这是一套能让你以可持续方式实现这一目标的技术栈。

Here's a tech stack that allows you to do that in a sustainable way.

这才是新闻业——尤其是独立新闻——能够蓬勃发展的方向。

That is a direction which journalism will thrive, independent journalism.

我认为这只是时间问题，这些工具和价值主张终将变得显而易见，让普通独立记者都能获取，无论他们身处安哥拉还是柬埔寨。

And it's just a question of time, I think, before the tools and the value proposition becomes obvious and available to the average independent journalist, no matter if they're in Angola or in Cambodia.

而我们正是这样的社群。

And we are that community.

全球独立记者组成的这个社群，就是Stringer基金会。

That community of independent journalists globally is the Stringer Foundation.

我们培育、维系并支持这个社群。

We nourish, sustain, support that community.

当这些工具可用时，我们会协助他们快速上手，帮助他们创建自己蓬勃发展的媒体机构，拥有自己的受众，按他们想要的方式开展报道并服务社会。

As those tools become available, we're here to help them onboard, help them create their own, you know, thriving media organizations, them own their own audiences, help them do the kind of reporting and serve society in the way that they want to.

他们从事的新闻报道类型多样。

It's a broad range of the kinds of journalism that they do.

我从事某一类新闻工作，其他人则更多涉足数据新闻或调查新闻等领域。

I do a certain kind of journalism, other people do more, you know, data journalism or investigative journalism.

新闻类型多种多样，我们希望成为一把包容的大伞，为所有类型提供家园，因为目前这样的家园尚不存在。

There's all different kinds and we want to be a broad umbrella that is a home for all of them because that home doesn't exist right now.

是的。

Yes.

我是说调查新闻，感觉我们现在正处于高质量调查新闻的枯竭期。

I mean, investigative journalism, I feel like we're in a we're in a, like a dry spell of really quality investigative journalism right now.

那谁在读这些内容呢？

And who reads this stuff?

比如谁会去读那些详尽的深度报道？

Like who's reading like, you know, detailed in-depth report?

现在所有人都在问聊天机器人。

Everybody's like asking the chat bot.

是啊。

Yeah.

这有点疯狂。

It's a bit nuts.

但从历史上看，如果我错了请纠正，调查性新闻就像是一种亏本赚吆喝的生意，对吧？

But historically, correct me if I'm wrong, but like was investigative journalism, it was like kind of a loss leader, right?

就像是《纽约

It was like New

时报》

York Times

会资助这类报道，仅仅因为能让他们获得像报道水门事件那样的声望。

would fund it, just because it would get them the cache of like, broke, you know, Watergate or something.

百分之百同意。

A 100%.

这始终关乎公众关注度和声望。

It was always, you know, cache publicity, prestige.

而且，是啊，我也说不清。

And it's, yeah, I don't know.

就像世界上许多服务社会的职业一样。

It's like a lot of professions in the world that serve society.

本质上社会必须认定这件事很重要且需要资金支持。

It's fundamentally society has to decide that this is important and needs to be funded.

它并不一定能产生利润。

It's not going to necessarily generate a profit.

我们会搞定的。

We'll get it done.

谢谢您先生，您的工作很重要。

Thank you, sir, for the work It's you important.

我在想，随着你们基金会的发展，我会持续邀请你们，大概每半年或一年左右，我们可以做进度汇报。

I was thinking as you build out the stringer foundation, I'll keep bringing you on, you know, maybe every six months or a year or something, we'll do updates.

那太好了。

That'd be great.

我非常乐意展示我们的决赛选手和获奖者团队，展示我们取得的进展，以及我们在全球范围内支持和维持的优秀记者与新闻事业。

I'd love to, I'd love to show off our cohorts of finalists and award winners and the progress we're making and the cool journalists and journalism that we are supporting and sustaining around the world.

太棒了。

Awesome.

好的，我们就这么计划吧。

Yeah, let's plan on that.

安詹，非常愉快。

Anjan, it's been a pleasure.

在我们结束前，你还有什么想对怪咖们说的吗？

Do you have any final thoughts for the freaks before we wrap?

我想对怪咖们说，要知道，新闻业和比特币传统上很少被相提并论，但马特你说的'这是独立新闻业的开放集'，这句话精炼地概括了这一点。

I would say to the freaks that, you know, recognize that journalism and Bitcoin, traditionally aren't put in the same conversations often, but I think what you said, Matt, that this is an open sets for independent journalism captures that in one succinct sort of phrase.

我认为我们与怪咖们以及新闻从业者之间有着长远的、共同的合作未来。

And I think there's a long future, a shared future of collaboration between The Freaks and Us and journalists.

我很期待这次对话能点燃并滋养这种关系。

I'm excited for this conversation to ignite and nourish that.

太好了。

Wonderful.

各位，你们可以在stringerjournalism.org上了解更多关于Stringer基金会的信息。

Guys, the you can find out more about the Stringer Foundation at stringerjournalism.org.

和往常一样，我会把所有相关链接放在节目说明里。

As always, I'll put all the relevant links in the show notes.

特别感谢一直支持节目的怪咖们。

Huge shout to the freaks who continue to support the show.

谢谢大家。

Thank you, guys.

这真的意义重大。

It really means a lot.

与我及其他怪咖互动最便捷的方式是通过Noster平台。

Easiest way to interact with both me and other freaks is on Noster.

再次推荐，我真的很喜欢Primal这款应用。

Once again, I really like the Primal app.

你可以在你喜欢的应用商店下载它。

You can download in your favorite app store.

但纳赛尔采用的是开放协议。

But Nasser's open protocol.

所以任何纳赛尔应用都能用，而Fountain播客是评论和支持节目的超便捷方式。

So any Nasser app works and then fountain podcasts is a really easy way to comment and support the show.

所有相关链接仍在dispatch.com上。

All relevant links are still dispatch.com.

我想我会试着下周做一期节目，但正好是圣诞周，所以还得看情况。

I think I will I'm gonna try and do a show next week, but it is Christmas week, so we'll see what happens.

如果下周做不了，下下周肯定会有一期。

If not, there'll be a show the week after that.

要是下周没节目的话，提前祝大家圣诞快乐。

But if I don't do a show next week, Merry Christmas ahead of time.

非常感谢各位。

I appreciate you all.

总之，安詹，谢谢您先生。

Anyway, Anjan, thank you, sir.