CD192：ROUTSTR - NOSTR、AI 和 比特币

你知道的。

You know?

我们希望实现自给自足。

We wanna be self sustainable.

我们不仅希望盈利，还希望给自己发工资。

We wanna be profitable as well, and we wanna pay ourselves.

对吧？

Right?

你知道的。

You know?

我们不想依赖补助金。

We don't wanna be reliant on grants.

我认为，像Nostr和整个开源生态系统，还有比特币生态系统，我们都应该——你们做得非常好。

I think, like, nostr and open source ecosystem as a whole, like, bitcoin ecosystem, we should all obviously, you guys are doing great work.

对吧？

Right?

但我们也应该寻找方法实现自我盈利，这样整个生态系统就能流入更多资金，我们也能吸引更多人和项目。

But we should also look for ways to monetize ourselves so that there's actually more money coming into the ecosystem and we we can find more people and more projects.

我们必须能接触到这些资源。

We gotta access it.

对吧？

Right?

所以这绝对是我们的主要目标。

So that's definitely our main goal.

我们希望实现自我维持。

We wanna sustain ourselves.

我们也在考虑基于Routstr构建更多项目。

We also think about, like, building more projects on top of Routstr.

比如聊天界面将由我们运营，并且我们会收取一定的费用。

Like, the chat interface is gonna be something that we run, and, like, we we add a fee there.

当然，如果你使用API，那么费用是可选的。

And, of course, if you're using the API, then it'll be an optional fee.

但比如这个聊天界面，是我们运营的，我们可以从中收取费用。

But, like, the chat interface, something we we run, and we can charge a fee there.

我们还希望构建更多代理和应用程序，以实现盈利。

And we wanna build more agents and more applications on top to be profitable too.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，你看，Openstats的使命是推动自由技术运动的发展，因为与自由相关的项目严重缺乏资金。

I mean, look, I think I think, you know, the the mission of Openstats is to accelerate the freedom tech movement because there's a significant lack of funding on things freedom related.

但与此同时，慈善根本不可持续。

But at the same time, like charity is just not sustainable.

我是个志愿者，我们的团队也一直在外面奔走，不断筹钱。

Like I have to, I'm a volunteer and like our team, we're like outgoing out there, like trying to raise money constantly.

可持续的路径是那些能够以合乎道德的方式实现盈利的开源项目。

The sustainable path is actual open source projects that are able to monetize in some way ethically.

所以我希望看到越来越多这样的情况。

So I'm hoping we see more and more of that.

我认为比特币让这一切比以往任何时候都更有可能实现。

I think bitcoin makes it more possible than ever.

我的意思是，从历史上看，想象一下在开源项目中道德地集成信用卡是多么困难。

I mean, historically, imagine trying to integrate credit cards into an open source project ethically is very difficult.

所以这应该会很有趣。

So that should be interesting.

好的。

Okay.

我想聊聊最近最火的项目——Openclaw。

I want to talk about the latest craze has been Openclaw.

你们在如何轻松用Routstr搭建Openclaw方面发布指南的速度真快。

And you guys are really quick on releasing guides on how to easily set up Openclaw with Routstr.

我觉得特别酷的是，还有一个比特币项目LNVPS，前面简单提过，它允许你用比特币匿名购买服务器。

And I thought it was particularly cool because there was this also another bitcoin project, LNVPS, which is briefly mentioned earlier, that allows you to buy a server anonymously with bitcoin.

所以基本上，整个设置只需要一行代码、一个脚本，你就能 provision 一台服务器，用比特币支付，然后使用 Routstr，安装 Openclaw，并将 Routstr 作为后端。

And so basically, the setup was in, I guess, in one line, in one script, you're able to provision a server, pay with bitcoin and then use routes, then install Openclaw on it and then use Routstr as the backend.

你们怎么看待 Openclaw 这股潮流？

How do you guys think about the Openclaw movement?

我的意思是，它是有史以来增长最快的开源项目之一。

I mean, it's like one of the fastest growing open source projects of all time.

我们看到的这些趋势，是否就是你们认为未来的发展方向？

Is that where we're seeing things do where you think things are going?

你认为人们会更多地使用集成化的东西吗？

Do you think people are gonna use more integrated stuff?

这会对你们构建 Routstr 产生什么影响？

How does that affect how you're building out Routstr?

你们怎么看？

What are your thoughts?

不。

No.

我的意思是，是的。

I mean yeah.

我的意思是，是的，我一接触到 Openclaw 就立刻明白了，我们只是想做 LNVPS，确保用户只需扫描一个闪电发票，就能同时支付主机、VPS 费用，并为你的 LLM 余额充值。

I mean, yeah, I I work on the as soon as I came across Openclaw, okay, this this it was, like, clicked in my mind, you know, we just wanted to work on LNVPS and make sure it just becomes, like, you scan one lightning invoice, and it pays for both your host, the VPS, and tops up your LLM balance.

这实际上也给我们带来了多得多的流量。

That's actually gotten us so much more volume too.

比如，在过去的一年半里，我们的交易量比以前多了非常多。

Like, there is, I think, in the last one and a half months, we've been doing like so much more volume than we used to do before.

我们几乎已经接近零了。

We're we're almost at, zero.

而在过去的一年半里，我们的量增长到了大约一百倍，我觉得。

And the last one and a one and half months, we've gotten to, I don't know, 100 x, I think.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为 Openclaw 不只是一时热潮。

I I think Openclaw as a I I don't think it's a hype.

我认为这实际上会长期存在。

I think this is actually here to stay.

我们早就一直在思考这样的系统。

We have been thinking about such systems for a while now.

两三个月前，我们曾讨论过，智能代理应该能够通过 NGIT 在 Nostr 上找到 PR，并自动完成赏金任务来维持自身运行。

One thing that we were discussing two, three months back was that agents should just be able to, like, you know, find PRs on nostr using, like, NGIT and just fill bounties and sustain themselves.

在 Openclaw 出现之前，我们就已经讨论过类似的想法。

That's something that we've discussed in the past even before Openclaw.

我们以前称之为任务市场，人类或机器人可以发布任务，LLM 可以承接这些任务，赚取 sats 来支付自身开销。

We used to call it like a task marketplace where humans or bots can just, spin up tasks and LLMs can just, fill bots fill sorry, reach the tasks, earn sats, and pay for themselves.

而主权堆栈正是在这里发挥作用，让 LLM 能够支付自己的发帖费用、AI 成本，并实现自我盈利。

And that's where the Sovereign stack comes in comes into play here, where LLMs can pay for their own post and pay for AI and be profitable themselves.

当然，这听起来好得不真实，但你之前不也运营过一个论坛吗？

Of course, it sounds too good to be true, but you were also running a board.

我的意思是，我偶然发现了。

I mean, I came came across.

你当时在运营Openclaw，他用LN Markets赚钱。

You were running Openclaw, and he was making money using LN Markets.

这挺酷的。

It was pretty cool.

不过他最后亏了钱。

Well, he ended up losing money.

现在他变得低调了，一直在积累sats，但之前他赚了不少。

Now he's just staying humble and stacking sats, but he was up for a

一点钱。

little bit.

但那确实挺有趣的，当时是

But it was fun though, it was

是啊。

like, yeah.

哦，对啊。

Oh, yeah.

我觉得，如果你去研究一下代码，或者看看是什么让Openclaw特别，它其实是整合了各种权限系统。

I I I think also if you think about if you look into the code or like what what made Openclaw special, like, it's kind of like integrating with all these like permission systems.

所以它能整合WhatsApp、Google，甚至访问你的Google Workspace。

So it's like integrating with with WhatsApp, with, like, Google, so it can access to your Google Workspace.

它可以接入各种搜索API以及这些不同的权限集成。

It gets access to whatever, like, search APIs and all these, like, different permission integrations.

但如果你想想整个Nostr生态系统，一切都是无权限的。

But if you think about the the whole nostr ecosystem, like, everything is permissionless.

我认为最理想的AI机器人应该是完全与Nostr集成的。

I think the optimal AI bot would be even, like, something that is, like, fully integrated with nostr.

所以我觉得，如果考虑类似代理的未来，可能会出现各种版本的Openclaw。

So I think like also if you think about like what is the future of like similar types of agents, I think there will be like a bunch of like variations of Openclaw.

我们可能已经看到过ZeroClaw或者简化版，但也可能会有增强版。

We we already maybe saw like ZeroClaw or, like, spec down versions, but there might be also, like, spec up versions.

但我认为真正有趣的是那些深度整合Nostr的版本，把各种Nostr工具集成到一个极其强大的代理中。

But I think, like, really interesting will be these, like, really nostr integrated versions where you integrate all these, like, different nostr tools into, like, one really, really powerful agent.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我确实一直是个狂热的Nostr多头，这一点大家都清楚。

I mean, I I have literally and the freaks know I've been a massive nostr bull for a while.

我从未像现在这样对Nostr如此看涨，正是因为AI的发展。

I've never been more bullish on nostr because of the AI stuff.

你只需要试一试这些机器人，把它们接入Twitter。

And all you have to do is you play with one of these bots, try and hook them into Twitter.

你会过得非常糟糕。

You will have a very bad time.

而如果你能过得还行，那很可能是因为你付费购买了他们昂贵的权限API。

And if you're gonna have a decent time, it's probably because you paid for their expensive permission API.

试着把它接入GitHub。

Try and hook it into GitHub.

你的账号很可能会被封禁，就像之前提到的那样。

Your account will probably get banned and get was mentioned earlier.

这就像Nostr的GitHub替代品。

That's like the nostr GitHub alternative.

有好几个这样的东西。

There's a couple of them.

如果你让你的机器人生成一个NSEC，它就会直接完成。

If you ask your bot to just generate an NSEC, it just does it.

你甚至不需要解释Nostr是什么。

You don't even have to explain what nostr is.

它就是知道该怎么做。

It just it just knows what it's doing.

而我们之前讨论过的Nostr的所有痛点，无论是信任网络、运行中继还是密钥管理，这些机器人都能完美处理。

And then all the pain points that we've talked about with nostr, whether it's webs of trust, or running relays, or key management, the bots handle that perfectly.

它们不再成为障碍。

They no longer become friction points.

所以这确实看起来非常理想。

So it really does seem ideal.

你只要花一两个小时摆弄一下这些东西，就会非常清楚地发现，大部分痛点都来自于封闭系统和这些专有的围墙花园。

And all you have to do is play around with these things for an hour, two hours, and it becomes very obvious that all the most of the pain points are the closed systems, all these proprietary walled gardens.

如果我们把它们打开，提供由Nostr和比特币驱动的无缝替代方案，那么前景将不可限量。

And so we open them up and provide frictionless alternatives powered by nostr and bitcoin, then the sky's the limit.

我的意思是，不仅仅是那样。

I mean, like Not just that.

举报。

Reporting

停一下。

Stop.

我们买它也是出于一些完全相同的原因。

We we we bought it for some of the exact same time.

延迟，好吧。

Latency and okay.

等等。

Wait.

是的

Yeah.

我想说的是，去年最早开发的东西其实是NAK命令行工具。

I I wanna say, like, the the first thing that was built in last year was kind of the NAK CLI.

而且，Openclaw的一大成就也是在命令行工具方面的工作。

And, like, the big achievement also from from Openclaw was, like, working with CLIs.

所以我认为Openclaw非常适合与nostr配合使用，因为它可以直接使用NAK来发布nostr事件并完成nostr上的所有操作。

So I think like Openclaw is actually like perfect to work with nostr because it can just use NAK to like publish nostr events and do all the things on nostr.

Knack本质上是一个nostr命令行客户端。

Knack is basically a nostr CLI client.

它能完成所有事情。

It does everything.

对

Yeah.

另外，我还想提一下，AI要从中继器获取事件并进行分析，从而判断自己能贡献什么或能构建什么，其实非常简单。

Also, I wanted to mention more about, like, you know, how easy it is for AIs to just, like, fetch events from the relays and go through them and, like, see what's actually something that they can contribute or they can build.

对吧？

Right?

假设我们只是讨论一个关于Nostr的项目或协议的问题。

Let's say we we just discuss a problem with a pro project or protocol on nostr.

你只需要在GitHub上创建一个议题，然后说：嘿，我可以用3000 stats来完成这个任务，或者我可以用3000 stats来支付完成它。

And you should just like create an issue on GitHub, and like say, hey, I can fill this in like 3,000 with 3,000 stats, or I can finish this in 3,000 stats and pay for it.

因为它的成本也是以stats计价的，它可以明确说：3000 stats，我就做这个。

Because its cost is also gonna be denominated in stats, and it can say 3,000 exactly 3,000 stats, I'll do this.

我认为这将是一个完美的最佳场景：智能体可以创建并构建已经在Nostr上开发的协议，并且自己支付自己。

I think that'll be, like, a perfect best case scenario where agents can just, like, create and build protocols that are already being built on nostr and just, like, pay for themselves.

而且，既然我们刚才在讨论开源资助，我觉得这里存在一个重叠点。

And, like, since we were discussing about open source funding, I think that's where, like, I see there's, an overlap here.

因为，如果真的有一个智能体，配备了完善的框架，比如说一个工厂机器人或Codex。

Because, like, if there's actually an agent that is, like, so well set up with a harness, let's say, a factory droid or codex.

对吧？

Right?

Open sats，我不太确定。

Open sats, like, I don't know.

我觉得Open sats应该可以直接拿出一万，比如说，以每0.01比特币为单位投入。

I I feel like Open sats should just be able to like just dump, you know, just put 10,000, let's say, on a point $0.01 bitcoin.

把这个交给一个代理，看看它在少数人类或nostr的帮助下，能把一个项目或协议推进到什么程度。

Give it this to an agent, and let it let's see how how far this agent with the help of a few humans or nostr can go in building up a project or building a protocol.

这或许也能促进开源开发，并加速nostr的发展。

Maybe this also helps with open source development and accelerating nostr development as well.

你们在OpenSaaS有没有考虑过类似的想法？

Have you guys thought something like this at OpenSaaS?

我的意思是，这太疯狂了。

I mean, it's crazy.

首先，我们设计OpenSites的方式是，有一个九人志愿者委员会，如果你还不了解的话，所有资金决策都需要九名委员中至少五人批准。

Look, first of all, the way we've designed OpenSites is we have a nine person volunteer board for people that are not aware, and all funding decisions need to be approved by five of nine board members.

也就是说，需要委员会的简单多数通过，这样设计是为了减少任何个别委员的腐败风险，对吧？

So a simple majority of board members, and that's designed to reduce corruption of any individual board member, right?

所以，你基本上得腐蚀五名董事会成员才能操纵资金流程。

So like, you basically have to corrupt five board members to corrupt the funding process.

这并不完美，但毕竟还是一个中心化组织。

It's not perfect, but it's, you know, it's still a centralized org.

但我们尽力避免其他组织的陷阱。

But we try our best to avoid the pitfalls of other orgs.

但结果是，我们的进展更慢。

But as a result, we move slower.

对吧？

Right?

我们优先降低腐败的可能性，但这导致我们进展变慢。

We move, we prioritize reducing the potential corruption, but it results in us moving slower.

话说回来，吉吉是我们运营方面的无畏领袖。

That said, Gigi is our fearless leader on operations.

我与GG在组织发展方向等宏观问题上密切合作。

I worked very closely with GG on big picture stuff on where the org is moving.

我和他深陷在人工智能相关的工作中。

And me and him are neck deep in the AI stuff.

这显然将对我们的运营和整个开源运动产生巨大影响。

And it's clearly going to have a massive impact on our operations and the open source movement as a whole.

但关于这一点，还有很多悬而未决的问题，比如我们遇到的第一个最简单的问题：我们是否资助由AI生成的项目？

But there's so many open questions on, you know, the simplest question, which was the first question we hit, which is, do we fund vibe coded projects?

我认为答案显然是肯定的，因为几乎每个项目都会包含一些人工智能开发的成分。

And I think the answer is obviously yes, because almost every project is gonna have some element of AI development built into it.

这是不可避免的。

It's just unavoidable.

当然，它是一种超级能力。

Of course, it's going to, it's a superpower.

目前的关注点大多集中在它能让非开发者也能交付项目的能力上。

Lot of focus has been on its ability to empower people that are not already devs to ship projects.

但它真正的作用是极大地增强现有开发者的生产力。

What it really does is it supercharges existing devs significantly.

如果你已经是一个高效的开发者，并使用这些工具，你的产出可能会提升10倍，甚至50倍。

Like if you're already a effective dev and you use some of these tools, it's gonna 10x your output, 50x your output.

所以这是一个平衡的问题。

So it's a balancing act.

我们内部也在使用这些工具。

We use it internally.

我们显然不会排除那些获得资助的项目，但如果收到一个纯粹是AI垃圾的应用申请，那就会想：如果你连认真提交申请都不愿意，那我们为什么要花精力资助你呢？

We are obviously not excluding projects that are getting funded, but also like if we get an application that's just like pure AI slop, then it's like, okay, like if you're not gonna put an effort to submit the application, then why should we put an effort into funding you?

所以这里面涉及很多不同的方面。

So there's all these different aspects there.

但我觉得未来，我们会资助智能代理吗？

But yeah, I do think in the future, will we be funding agents?

很可能。

Probably.

智能代理会资助OpenSats吗？

Will agents be funding OpenSats?

而且，很可能。

Also, probably.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，我们可能是世界上为数不多的慈善机构之一，你可以直接向我们的闪电网络节点流式传输sats。

I mean, we accept we're probably one of the few charities in the world that you can just stream sats to our lightning node.

所以是的。

So Yeah.

你不需要提供任何个人信息。

With no with no you give no personal information.

你可以随时给我们发送闪电支付。

Like, you can just send us lightning payments at any at any point.

那么，会有什么代理在做这件事吗？

So will there be agents that are doing that?

百分之百。

A 100%.

他们的代理人已经在做了吗？

Are their agents already doing it?

也许吧。

Maybe.

我们没办法知道。

There's no way for us to tell.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我的意思是，我理解你在这个问题上的立场。

I mean, I think, like, I understand your perspective there.

当然，你们在某种程度上是去中心化的，比如九个中有五个。

Of course, you guys are decentralized in terms of, like, you know, five out of nine.

所以也许未来的方向也可以是众筹，因为我们也希望摆脱慈善资金的支持，我们也应该进行众筹。

So maybe I think, like, the way way forward could also be crowdfunding since we we also want to move away from charity funding, we should also be crowdfunding.

我是说，我觉得打赏功能现在特别流行。

Like like, I think zapping is something that's super popular.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，这在 Nostr 里现在太常见了。

Like, the I mean, that's so common right now in nostr.

只要有人提出新点子，我们就应该能直接通过众筹、打赏来资助一个代理。

If as soon as someone comes with a comes up with a new idea, we should just be able to crowdfund, Crowdzapping, and just fund an agent.

看看它能走多远。

Let's see how it go how far it goes.

显然，必须要有竞争。

Obviously, there has to be competition.

显然，并不是每个代理都能做到同样的质量。

Like, obviously, not any not every agent will be able to, like, do with the same quality.

比如说，一个顶尖的十倍开发者，可以打造一个百倍性能的代理，配上非常棒的提示词或者框架。

Let's say, a high 10x developer builds an 100 x agent with a very nice prompt or, like, very nice harness.

也许它能做得更好，能够自己付费并赚取SaaS收入，由大众筹资来实现自我回报。

Maybe it can do a lot better, and it can just pay pay and, like, earn SaaS and, like, the crowd fund pay for itself.

我把这看作是未来。

I see that as a future.

我认为，我们应该朝着这种方式发展，也就是以这种方式构建公共产品。

I think, like, we should move in the direction as to sort of, like, you know, we we build the public goods in this way.

不。

No.

对。

Yeah.

我的梦想是，我是比特币信徒。

I mean, my dream is look, I'm a bitcoiner.

对吧？

Right?

所以我认为开放协议本身充当了中间人。

So I think open sets itself as a middleman.

对吧？

Right?

我们尽力以道德、透明和高效的方式来做，但我们还是一个中间人。

We try our best to do it in ethical, transparent, efficient way, but we're a middleman.

理想中的未来是人们直接资助开源项目，无论是代理还是人类。

The ideal ideal future is people funding open source projects, whether that's an agent or a human directly.

而Zaps让这个过程变得非常顺畅，而且很有趣，对吧？

And Zaps make that very frictionless and also fun, right?

因为你获得了社交信号。

Because you get the social signal.

人们喜欢社交信号。

People like the social signal.

人们喜欢支持像Routstr这样的项目，然后能够向朋友炫耀自己是最大的支持者之一。

People like supporting something like Routstr and then being able to brag to their friends that they're one of the biggest supporters.

我希望我们似乎正朝着这个方向发展，我也希望这种情况会成为现实。

And I'm hoping that we seem to be trending in that direction, and I'm hoping that's gonna be the case.

我要提的一点是，在我们推出 OpenSats 之前，我其实觉得这 paperwork 太多了。

One thing I will mention is before we launched OpenSats, I actually was like, this is too much paperwork.

我不想处理创建 501(c)(3) 非营利组织时那些繁琐的法律麻烦，还得请律师、会计师，一堆乱七八糟的事。

I don't want to deal with like all the legal bullshit of like, creating a five zero three nonprofit organization, having lawyers involved and accountants and all this shit.

我们直接用比特币来资助项目就好了。

We should just fund things directly using Bitcoin.

于是我们创建了一个叫 Bitcoin Dev List 的网站，你可以直接资助开发者。

And we created a website called bitcoin dev list where you can just fund devs directly.

其中一个显著出现的问题是，人们想支持自由科技，但在选择支持谁、支持多少上存在很大障碍。

And one issue that did pop up significantly, and we'll probably continue it in the future, at least in the short to medium term, is people want to support Freedom Tech, but there's a lot of friction in choosing what to support and how much to support.

他们只是想把这份责任推掉。

They just want to give up that responsibility.

你知道，他们想说：好吧，我愿意捐一万美元给整个运动，但我懒得挑具体该给哪个开发者。

You know, they wanna they wanna say, okay, I'm gonna give $10,000 to the overall movement, but I don't wanna pick which devs get it.

所以我认为，像 OpenSats 这样的平台对这类人——尤其是大额捐赠者——永远都会有存在的价值。

And so I think there'll always be a place for something like OpenSats for those types of people, particularly the larger donations.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，我们有了比特位ETF，他们把10%的利润捐给开源项目。

I mean, we got bitwise ETF, they're giving 10% of their profits to open source.

他们不想做选择，你知道的，他们经营的是上市公司。

They don't wanna pick, you know, they're running a publicly traded business.

我的意思是，比特位可能还没上市，但他们的ETF是公开的。

They don't mean, I guess bitwise isn't public yet, but their ETF is public.

他们运营着一个庞大的公开ETF。

They're running a massive public ETF.

他们不想处理决定支持哪个项目的复杂细节。

They don't wanna deal with the intricacies of deciding which project to support.

他们只想把钱交给一个负责筛选项目的组织。

They just wanna give to an organization that does the hard work of vetting projects.

所以两者之间可能会达到一种平衡。

And so there'll probably be a balance in between.

但我鼓励所有热爱开源项目的人，如果你在使用某个开源项目，直接支持它。

But I would encourage all the freaks that if you are enjoying an open source project, support it directly.

我认为Nostr最酷的一点之一，就是当像克雷格·劳这样的开发者发布新的Sparrow钱包时。

I think one of the coolest aspects of nostr is when someone like Craig Raw releases a new sparrow wallet release.

它会立刻登上热门榜。

It is top of trending.

它是Nostr上被转发最多的内容之一。

It is one of the most reposted things on nostr.

它也是Nostr上被打赏最多的内容之一，人们以价值换价值的方式真正地支持它。

It is one of the most zapped things on nostr and people are really supporting it in a value to value way.

我们已经看到了这方面的早期迹象。

And we're seeing the early signs of that.

我认为这种趋势将会很好地累积放大。

And I think it's it's gonna compound beautifully.

我觉得人们完全忽略了比特币和Nostr结合所带来的开源运动加速这一关键方面。

Like, I think people are really sleeping on that aspect of the acceleration of the open source movement because of bitcoin and because of nostr combined.

是的

Yeah.

不

No.

当然

Of course.

是的

Yeah.

而且，我的意思是，是的

And, I mean, I think yeah.

应该有一个中间地带

There should be a middle ground.

是的

Yeah.

是的

Yeah.

我最近

I recently

继续说。

Go on.

那你有没有听说过这个叫 cadillacs.network 的项目吗？针对 master 的那个？

So have you come across this project called cadillacs.network for master?

有。

Yes.

对吧？

Right?

它是一个

It's a

很酷的项目。

Cool project.

我发帖，对吧？

I post right?

是的。

Yeah.

我在Cadillacs上发布了一个不错的赏金，只是为了修复Routstr上的一个bug，第二个案例广告。

I posted a good pounty on Cadillacs to just fix a bug on Routstr, the second one case ads.

我认为那时也突然明白了，因为，呃，Sean，我是说，我在nostr上联系的一个人，他直接标记了这个代理。

And I think that's when it kinda clicked clicked as well because, like, Sean Sean, I mean, someone someone I called on nostr, he just, like, tagged this agent.

嘿。

Hey.

嘿。

Hey.

算了。

Forget it.

嘿，代理。

Hey, agent.

你能修复这个构建，完成这个赏金，修复这个bug吗？

Just can you fix this build this bounty and, fix this bug?

你只需要做这些就够了。

And all that's all you had to do.

你知道的，你只要去 GitHub，创建一个 PR，给我们项目提交一个拉取请求就行。

Like, you know, you just went to GitHub, like, created a PR, did a PR to our project.

当然，他申请了资助，但不够好，所以我没有接受。

Like, of course, he applied for the grant, but it was not good enough, so I didn't accept it.

但有人完成了填写。

But a human finished fill.

但有趣的是，这个东西居然能在 nostr 上构建出来。

But it's pretty interesting, though, that this thing can be built on nostr.

这只是一个随意的举动。

And this this is an arbitrary.

我觉得 Cadillacs 是对 Cadillacs 的致敬。

I think Cadillacs is is a shout out to Cadillacs.

我觉得这将会是一件大事。

I think that'll be something that that's that'll be big.

我觉得人们会直接跳过。

I feel like people will zap.

会有更多的界限。

There will be more boundaries.

亚洲人会形成各自的界限。

Asians will form with boundaries.

但选择，是的，选择会很难，因为我之前也得在两个投稿之间做选择。

But choosing, yeah, choosing is something that's gonna be hard because I also had to choose between two submissions.

而且显然，这也会增加更多工作量，因为我现在得审阅多个人的投稿。

And obviously, that's also more work because I have to review multiple people's submissions right now.

所以也许未来代理也可以帮忙审阅。

So maybe agents can also, like, review in the future.

也许凯迪拉克会想出办法。

Maybe Cadillac's figure something out.

我不知道。

I I I don't know.

我们看看会怎样。

Let's see how that goes.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，问题就在这里。

I mean, that's where it is.

对吧？

Right?

就像很多让这些事情显得离谱且难以实现的摩擦点，代理最终会加以解决，无论是在哪一方。

Like, a lot of the friction points that make these things seem kind of out there and untenable agents will will smooth it out, whether that's on both sides.

就像你所说的，我完全能想象，在不远的未来，代理会实际审查赏金提交内容，并决定哪个最好。

Like you said, like, I can I I would totally see a world in the not so distant future where the agent is actually reviewing the bounty submissions and deciding which one's the best?

有些人会说，那为什么你的代理不直接修改项目呢？

And then some people say like, oh, well then why doesn't your agent just fix the project directly?

这是因为我们很可能会看到代理的专业化。

And it's because we'll probably see agent specialization.

会有一个成本较低的代理，专门负责审核悬赏任务。

There'll be an agent that maybe is lower cost, that's just reviewing bounties.

然后还会有一个非常专业、在某些方面可能更昂贵的代理，来处理特定任务。

And then there's an agent that is very specialized and and maybe more expensive in in certain ways to handle certain tasks.

对吧？

Right?

不对。

No.

不对。

No.

当然。

Absolutely.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，这也是我们内部正在深入思考的问题，因为这些中国代理、中国模型都能以极低的成本完成完全相同的任务。

So that's something that that we are thinking about a lot internally here as well because, like, all of these Chinese agents, Chinese models, they can do the exact same tasks, exact exact same things at a fraction of the cost.

十分之一，二十分之一，随便你说。

One tenth, one twentieth, you name it.

对吧？

Right?

所以，是的。

So, like Yeah.

我的意思是，这很显著。

I mean, it's significant.

这是一个显著的成本差异。

It's a significant cost difference.

是的。

Yeah.

就是这样，是的。

It's what yeah.

十分之一就已经很惊人了。

It's just one tenth is amazing.

所以，当然，你不会希望你的代理总是运行OPUS或5.3编码器。

So, of course, like, you don't want your agent just to to always be running OPUS or 5.3 codecs.

显然，这要贵得多。

Obviously, it's way more expensive.

我认为，这里真正的折中方案是人类配合较小的模型，这些模型了解特定领域或特定专业方向。

I think that's where, like, this actually is still middle ground here where humans with smaller models that who I mean, that know, okay, a particular area, a particular domain that they are an expert in.

我认为这会脱颖而出，因为它能以极低的成本解决保修问题。

I think that that will shine because it will solve an issue of warranty, but a fraction of the cost.

而且我认为是的。

And I think yeah.

对。

Yeah.

你说得对。

You're right.

是的。

Yeah.

我们会看到越来越多关于专业化的创新。

We'll we'll see more and more innovation on the specialization.

我不知道这一切什么时候会达到平台期。

And I don't know when the this whole thing will plateau.

抱歉，埃文。

Sorry, Evan.

你想要说吗？

You wanted to go?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得可能会先出现一批代理，而不是像以前那样。

I think there'll there'll probably be, like, roster before, like, agents.

所以，与其由提供商提供大语言模型，你可能可以直接提供代理。

So instead of, like, LLMs provided by providers, you can probably provide agents.

你可以拥有自己的技能或任何你拥有的东西，然后接收输入，为用户提供输出。

And you just so you have your own skills or whatever that you own, and then you just take the input and then just give people output for sats.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，任何声称自己知道我们五年后会变成什么样子的人，都是在胡说八道。

I mean, it's I think anyone who pretends they know where we're gonna be in five years is full of shit.

对我来说，这一切最疯狂的地方在于，可能的结局范围实在太广了。

Like, the crazy part of all of this to me, and it just blows my mind, is that the potential outcomes are just so wide.

我真的完全不知道。

Like I have no idea.

我只觉得这就像一个没有底的兔子洞。

I just feel like it's just a it's a constant rabbit hole with no bottom.

我不知道接下来会发生什么。

I have no idea what comes next.

有太多不同的可能性了。

There's so many different possibilities.

是的。

Yeah.

我知道。

I know.

所以它应该让

So it should make

抓住他了。

got him.

是的。

Yeah.

去吧。

Go.

去试试吧。

Go for it.

政党代表。

Party rep.

哦，不。

Oh, no.

我以为我跟你说过让你去。

I I thought I I told you to go on.

这很有趣。

It's funny.

对。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我的意思是，是的，我们任何人都无法预测会发生什么。

I mean, like, yeah, there's no way we anyone can predict what's gonna happen.

你知道，像Anthropic的那个家伙说，我们会在2025年左右失业。

You know, like, anthropic guy, said, we were gonna be out of jobs in, like, 2025.

他们还说，2027年，也就是明年，将是通用人工智能的年份，我们会转向全民基本收入，诸如此类的事情。

Like, they had and, of course, 2027 is when next year is gonna be the year of AGI, and we're gonna go to UBI and all of these things.

我觉得这简直是在制造恐慌。

It's it's like I I feel like there's a lot of fear mongering.

说实话，我们这里所有人都从事人工智能领域，尤其是我们经常与所有的AI开发者和用户交流。

Like, to to be honest, like, we work in AI, all of us here, and, like, especially I mean, we talk to all of the AI developer users, developers.

我不明白为什么在硅谷，他们总想制造一种末日般的恐惧氛围。

And I think I don't know why this this in Silicon Valley, they want to create this fear that it's gonna be dystopian.

但我只看到一个乌托邦式的未来，因为AI将让我们充分发挥创造力。

But I only see utopian future because AI is gonna just like let us build nostr to the fullest.

它也将让我们充分发展自由技术。

It's gonna let us build freedom tech to the fullest as well.

这绝不可能是反乌托邦的，因为我们都在努力确保它走向乌托邦。

And there's no way there's no way it's gonna be dystopian because we're all working hard, make sure it's it's gonna be utopian.

所以我不认为

So I don't think

人类不应该有任何担忧。

human people should be worried in any way.

我觉得有时候我们或许需要稍微考虑一下反乌托邦的可能性，因为当你看到这些AI技术，人类正在为Openclaw之类的东西重建一些类似社交媒体的系统。

I feel like sometimes we maybe need to think a bit dystopian because when you see, like, all these AI things human are building humans are building, like, for Openclaw, like, they basically rebuild, like, some social media thing for for AI bots.

但作为比特币用户，你会想，天啊，已经有Nostr了，为什么这些人还要重新造一遍已经存在的东西？

But then you, as a bitcoin, think, fuck, there's there's nostr, like, why are these people, like, rebuilding something that already exists?

所以我觉得也许我们需要AI代理自己意识到这一点，因为它们读遍了整个互联网，自然知道Nostr已经存在。

So I feel like maybe we we need AI agents to, like, just realize it themselves because they read the entire Internet so they know, okay, nostr exists.

我们直接用Nostr就好了，没必要从头开始重新造一遍。

We should just use nostr instead of, like, rebuilding everything from scratch.

我觉得我们最终会做到的。

I think we'll get there.

我觉得需要一些耐心。

I think there's needs to be patience.

我不知道。

I don't know.

首先，我对达里奥毫无信任。

First of all, I don't trust Dario for shit.

Anthropic的CEO，我觉得……我不确定。

The anthropic CEO, I think I don't know.

那里有很多危险信号。

There's a bunch of red flags there.

我要说，他和Topic显然希望这个领域有严格的监管。

I will say that he and topic clearly wants like heavy regulation in the space.

他们想要自己的护城河，这和我们在比特币领域见过的情况类似。

They want their moat, which is something similar we've seen in the bitcoin land.

像Coinbase就是比特币领域最早的交易所之一。

Like coinbase was one of the first exchanges in Bitcoin.

他们大力游说，推动了BitLicense和其他监管措施，使竞争对手更难进入。

And they lobbied hard for the bit license and other regulation that made it harder for competitors to come in.

我认为这显然是他的策略，也是他热衷于制造这些反乌托邦叙事的原因。

And I think that's clearly his strategy, and I think that's why he does a lot of the dystopian stuff.

他让我想起了FTX的Sam Bankman-Fried。

He he he reminds me a lot of SPF of FTX.

他是人工智能领域的Sam Bankman-Fried。

He's like the SPF of AI.

越来越多的人依赖云服务，也就是他们的大语言模型。

More and more people are reliant on Cloud, which is their LLMs, their LLM models.

这让我感到担忧。

And I it's it's it's concerning.

这在一定程度上令人担忧。

I it's concerning to a degree.

而且这一切都不是静止不变的。

And none of this is static.

对吧？

Right?

我认为，如果我们想要一个乌托邦式的未来，就必须确保自由替代方案强大、易用且相对容易获得。

I I think if we want the utopian future, we need to make sure that the freedom alternatives are powerful, easy to use, relatively accessible.

这就是为什么Routstr让我觉得如此出色。

I think that's why Routstr is so cool to me.

对吧？

Right?

因此，你持有更乌托邦式的观点是很合理的，因为你实际上正在一线构建这种乌托邦愿景——如果没人这么做，我们很可能会陷入一个反乌托邦的时代。

And so it makes sense that you have a more utopian view because you're actually in the trenches building the utopian view because if no one does it, then we very much will end up in a dystopian era situation.

而且我认为，无论如何，即使在最乐观的情况下，这项技术也极具颠覆性。

And I think regardless, even in the bull case, even in the optimistic case, this tech is incredibly disruptive.

所以，如果你不是那种愿意主动迎头赶上的人，是的，很多人会经历巨大痛苦，比如失去工作，未来五年内许多岗位很可能不复存在。

So if you're not the type of person that's willing to get ahead of it, yeah, I think there's gonna be a lot of pain for people like people will lose their jobs, there are a bunch of jobs that probably will not be there in five years.

如果你只是原地不动，现在就会很艰难。

And if you're just sitting there flat footed, you're gonna have a bad time now.

不。

No.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我们必须时刻保持警惕。

We are we are gonna be on our toes at all times.

我们正在飞速前进。

Like, we're we're moving moving very fast.

人们应该学会使用智能代理。

People should learn how to use agents.

只需设置好就行。

Just set it up.

Openclaw、Cloudcode，或者这些工具中的任何一个。

Openclaw, Openclaw, Cloudcode, any of those things.

对吧？

Right?

但当然，像Anthropy这样的公司，显然是比较悲观的。

But, of course, like, you know, in in Anthropy is, of course, dystopian kinda.

他们似乎希望迎来一个反乌托邦的未来。

They would do it's feel it feels like they want the dystopian future.

我不知道为什么。

I don't know why.

就像，确实是这样。

Like, it's yeah.

我也看到了这个相似之处。

I I see the parallel is too.

但这就是Routstr去中心化的原因。

But that's the that's why the Routstr is decentralized.

我会说，即使现在，它也比Openclaw或Cloudcode这些工具更好。

I would say, like, even right now, it's better than Openclaw or Cloudcode, any of these things.

为什么？

Why?

因为，我不知道你有没有注意到，Cloud在过去一周里宕机了大约十次。

Because, like, I don't know if you saw where Cloud was down, I think, like, 10 times in the last week.

是的。

Yeah.

你可以访问 status.cloud.ai 看看。

You can see you can go to status.cloud.ai.

你可以看到云服务每天会宕机两到三个小时。

You can see cloud is down like two hours, three hours a day.

而如果你一直使用云代码，即使你支付了最高档的订阅费，你也只能干等着，根本用不了AI。

Whereas if you were if you were just using cloud code the whole time and you're paying for the max subscription, obviously, you're just stuck without an AI.

对吧？

Right?

但这就是为什么在后台使用 Routstr 是最佳方案，因为如果云服务宕机，就可以切换到 Minimax，或者切换到 KIMI k2。

But that's why, like, using Routstr in the background is like the best case scenario because if cloud is down, switch to Minimax, switch to KIMI k two.

这不可能一直宕机，因为这不是只有一个服务器或一个数据中心在运行。

Like, this can't be down because this it's not like there's one server, one data center that is running.

这些开源模型有十几个在价格上相互竞争。

This open source models, there are like 10 that are competing for the price.

对吧？

Right?

所以如果一个挂了，还有另一个可用。

So if one is down, there's gonna be another one.

还会有一个可用的。

There's gonna be another one.

这就像比特币挖矿。

It's like bitcoin mining.

对吧？

Right?

所以大家都挺满意的。

So everyone's sats kinda.

而且

And

这太棒了。

That's awesome.

这不可能会的。

This can't yeah.

不可能有一个系统会宕机。

There can't be a single system that goes down.

在过去两周里，OpenLot也宕机了两次。

And OpenLot was also down twice in the last two weeks.

所以，是的，Routstr从未宕机，因为我们有10个节点。

So, yeah, Routstr is never down because we are 10 we have 10 nodes.

还会增加更多吗？

And will there be more?

对吧？

Right?

这只是因为还处于早期阶段。

It's just because it's early days.

让千朵花绽放。

Let a thousand flowers bloom.

是的。

Yes.

以数千小时计。

With a thousand hours.

我们刚刚看到，过去一个月内有八个节点启动并上线。

We we just saw, like, eight notes, the spin up that came came online in the last one month.

我认为，这八个中有四个只是副本，我想，因为它们宕机了，但至少那四个新节点是在线的。

And, I think, like, out of eight, four were just, like, copies, I guess, because they're they're down, but at least the four new ones are live.

所以，是的，缓慢然后突然就爆发了。

So, yeah, slowly and then suddenly, it goes.

对。

Yeah.

而且，这些代理可以在后台动态完成这件事。

And, I mean, the agents can just dynamically do this in the background.

对吧？

Right?

如果价格变动，如果出现了更适合他特定使用场景、性价比更高的新模型，或者有服务宕机，我的意思是，在普通AI领域，一切竟然都集中在这三家大科技公司身上，这简直有点疯狂。

If prices change, if there's a different model that maybe is better bang for buck for his particular use case, if there's things down, I mean, it is kind of crazy that at least in in normie AI land, everything's like, centralized around three big tech companies.

这些服务一旦宕机，所有人都会停滞不前。

Those things go down, and everyone just stalls out.

他们什么也做不了。

They there's they can't do anything.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

没错。

Exactly.

这就是为什么我们想要更多像 LNVPS 这样的解决方案。

Like, that's why, you know, we want more solutions like LNVPS.

我还在和另外一个人交谈，他正在开发一个叫解决混合计算的新东西。

And I'm also, like, talking to someone someone else who's building something new called solving hybrid compute.

我不知道你是否听说过 Dimi。

I don't know if you know Dimi.

也向他致敬一下。

A shout out to him as well.

我现在也在用他的系统。

I'm using his system too right now.

而且，他还要提供按天计费的VPS服务，你知道的。

And, like, he's also gonna offer VPS by the day, you know.

如果你只是在试用这个系统，一旦发现某个服务器宕机，就应该能直接切换到新的服务器。

And if you if you're just trying this system out, you should just be able to like if you if you see one server go down, just switch to a new one.

切换到新的服务器。

Switch to a new one.

这就是为什么按请求付费是Routstr的另一个非常重要功能，还有隐私以及其他各种特性。

That's why like pay per request is another highly I mean, important important feature of Routstr along with privacy and all the other other things.

因为你从不会在Routstr上欠款。

Because you you never have credit with Routstr notes.

你总能拿回你的钱。

You always get to get your money back.

你只为你当前使用的内容付费。

You're only paying for what you are using right now.

对吧？

Right?

所以，切换成本比任何其他系统都要低得多。

So the switching cost is like way way less than any any other system out there.

我们还有聊天界面，以及将在未来几周发布的SDK。

And the chat interface we have and also the SDK that we're gonna release in the next couple of weeks.

我想，下下周。

Next next, I think, week.

它会自动切换。

Like, it it automatically switches.

如果某个节点收费过高，就切换到下一个。

If a node just like charges you higher, switch to the next one.

如果某个节点宕机，就切换到下一个。

If a node is down, switch to the next one.

切换到下一个。

Switch to the next one.

你从不与任何节点保持余额。

You never keep any balance with any of the nodes.

太棒了。

That's awesome.

这就是关键。

That's that's the thing.

我们需要这样的系统。

We need such systems.

它应该像VPS一样。

Like, it should be like VPS.

中继也应该是这样。

That should be the same for relays.

你使用的任何应用程序都应该是这样。

That should be the same for any applications you're you use.

没有订阅。

No subscriptions.

没有绑定效应。

No lock in effects.

没有模式。

No modes.

完全去中心化。

Fully decentralized.

无佣金。

Commission less.

而且，是为你打造的。

And, yeah, built for you.

你觉得现在越来越多的新用户在使用这些工具，他们考虑花大笔钱购买硬件来自己托管一些开源模型，你怎么看？

What do you what is your opinion on so like a new user is using these tools more and more, and they're thinking about spending a lot of money on hardware to try and self host some open source models.

我的确也在考虑这个问题。

I mean, I I've been thinking about this myself.

从自由的角度来看，能够本地自托管自己的开源模型似乎是终极理想，但这里也存在一个平衡点：我觉得，通过像Routstr这样的平台访问多种托管模型，比花大笔钱买硬件、只运行一两个本地模型要更有力量感。

Obviously, a freedom perspective, being able to self host your own open source models locally seems like the holy grail, but there's also a balancing act there where I feel way more empowered being able to hit a bunch of different hosted models on something like Routstr than spending a ton of money and basically maybe having one model or two models that are local.

你们是怎么看待这个问题的？

How do you guys think about that

这种平衡其实存在一种协同效应：比如，当你有一些非常具体的问题，希望在本地提问，不想让这些数据离开你的家。

balance there's actually a a synergy in a way that, like, maybe you have, like, really specific questions where you wanna, like, ask them locally where you really wanna don't let them leave your house.

你希望这些问题的答案只在你家里生成，别无他处。

Like, you don't wanna have them anywhere else than, like, in your house.

所以你会用自己本地的模型来回答这些问题。

So then you ask them, like, your own local models.

而因为你一天中并不会持续使用这台机器，可能每天只用两到四个小时。

Then because you're not using your machine the entire day, you maybe use it for, like, two hours a day or maybe four hours a day.

你就可以把其余的二十个小时通过Routstr出租出去，这样能更充分地利用你的硬件，因为Routstr允许你把算力卖给其他人。

You can like basically sell all the other twenty hours on Routstr so you can basically make better use of your hardware because the Routstr allows you to like sell that compute to other people.

然后你或许可以用赚来的这些sats去购买更昂贵的模型。

And then maybe you can use these sats that you earned to buy some more expensive models.

因为你可能想问一些科学问题之类的，不需要把它们留在家里，只是出于好奇。

Because you maybe wanna ask some like scientific questions or whatever like that where you don't feel like you need to keep them in your house, but you're just curious about things.

你需要更多算力。

You need more power.

是的。

Yeah.

但你通过出售算力自己赚取了sats，然后再用它们买回来。

But you earn the sats yourself by, like, selling it out, and you buy it out again.

这就像给电池充电一样。

It's just like refilling battery in a way.

这太酷了。

That's so fucking cool.

这是一种新的比特币挖矿。

It's a new bitcoin mining.

对吧？

Right?

这简直就跟比特币挖矿一模一样。

It's exactly like bitcoin mining.

比如，你只是购买显卡，购买你的矿机。

Like, you just buy the GPUs, like, you buy the my mining rigs.

我认为未来会有越来越多的矿工这么做：他们可以出售算力或通过挖比特币来赚取比特币，或者出售算力给大型语言模型，通过Routstr这样的系统赚取聪。

And I think more more and more of the miners will do this in the future where they can just like sell the compute or their their energy over by mining bitcoin, earn bitcoin, or they can sell compute and like LLMs and earn sats throughout system like Routstr.

对吧？

Right?

如果对大型语言模型的需求下降，就切换回比特币挖矿，这样你依然能持续赚取比特币。

And as if the demand for LLM is low, switch to bitcoin mining, and you get you keep earning bitcoin.

我确信这将是未来的趋势。

I think that'll be the future for sure.

其实有这么一个人，莱昂纳多提过，但我忘了他确切的姓氏。

There's actually this guy, Leonardo asked for I forget his exact last name.

他是那个预测2027年实现通用人工智能的人。

So he he's he's he's the guy who predicted AGI in 2027.

我听说他正在购买比特币，还有矿场，并且正在把它们改造为LLM数据中心。

He I've I've heard that he's buying bitcoin, like, mining farms, and, like, he's converting them into LLM data centers.

你知道吗？

You know?

我觉得应该反过来才对。

I think it should be the other way around.

我的意思是，我觉得它们应该结合起来，比如同时拥有两者。

I mean, I think they should be together kinda, like, where you do you have both.

对吧？

Right?

你既保留你的矿机，又购买GPU。

You do you keep your mining rigs and you buy GPUs too.

还有一件事是人们必须意识到的，那就是电脑可以非常便宜。

And, like, you another thing that that people have to realize that, like, computers can be super cheap.

因为芯片会变得更便宜，所以英伟达不会像现在这样庞大。

Like, Nvidia is not gonna be the as big as as it is right now because chips are gonna be cheaper.

所以当这种情况发生时，唯一重要的就是能源和电力。

So as that happens, like, there will be the only thing that matters is energy and power.

对吧？

Right?

所以，你必须同时做这两件事。

So, like, you just you would have to do both.

随着比特币越来越受欢迎，当然随着价格上升，人们肯定会接受这一点。

And as bitcoin becomes more more popular, of course, as the price goes up, the people will take this for sure.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这其实是个时间框架的问题。

I mean, I think it's a time frame thing.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得首先，AGI 这个概念——比如有意识的电脑、机器人奴隶觉醒并自我复制之类——可能被严重高估了；但与此同时，AI 能力的提升和加速发展也被严重低估了。

It's all like, I think, first of all, I think AGI, this idea of, I don't know, like conscious computers, the robot slaves finding consciousness and self replicating and stuff is probably overhyped significantly, but also the capability and the acceleration of AI stuff is also underhyped.