CD197：MATT AHLBORG - PPQ.AI - AI代理、隐私与支付

然后你需要找到一些简单的指标来降级。

And then you have to find simplistic indicators to downgrade.

对吧？

Right?

这样就能在一定程度上保证，虽然不能完全保证，但能获得更高的准确性。

And that that would kind of guarantee that you're getting that maybe not guarantee, but much stronger accuracy.

但路由并不容易。

And but the routing is not easy.

我目前的做法只是基于基本的关键词启发式规则，完全不科学。

The way I'm doing it right now, it's just like basic keyword heuristics, which is like not scientific at all.

它对于当前的用途还算凑合，但未来会更加复杂。

It does a decent job for what it is, but the future it's gonna be much more.

我认为，整个AI研究领域都会投入到这个方向。

I think I can see a whole field of AI research going into this area.

这不仅意味着你必须做出这些决策，还必须极其迅速地做出。

Is this not only that you have to make these decisions, but you have to make them super fast.

你实际上是在执行查询之前先运行了一次查询。

You're basically running a query before you run the query.

对吧？

Right?

关于我既想省钱又想保持能力这件事，你怎么看？

What are your thoughts on like, so in my quest to save money, but also have competence.

因为我已经完全放弃了订阅模式。

Cause I've, I basically opted out of the entire subscription model.

在我的整个自学过程中，我一直按令牌付费，一开始非常昂贵。

So I've been paying per token my entire self learned education experience, and it was very expensive at first.

我越来越喜欢Gemini Flash 3了。

I've really grown to love specifically Gemini flash three.

它速度快、价格便宜，而且能力相对可靠。

It's fast, it's cheap, and it's relatively competent.

它不会犯像Mini Max那样的灾难性错误，甚至不会犯像Kimmy那样的错误，而且比Kimmy还便宜。

Like it doesn't make disastrous mini max mistakes or even Kimmy level mistakes and it's cheaper than Kimmy.

未来的模式会不会是使用像这样的模型，它相对胜任、相对快速、相对便宜，先做一次预筛选，然后像四分卫一样做出最终决策。

Is the future something like using a model like that that's relatively competent, relatively fast, relatively cheap, and that's like pre screening stuff and then making the it's like the quarterback.

而不是像基于关键词那样的基础操作。

Then it's like making the executive decision rather than a basic keyword type of thing.

我不知道。

I don't know.

再说一遍，我说过，这是一个复杂的问题。

Again, like I said, I I think it's a complicated question.

所以我真的不知道，但很高兴你喜欢Flash。

So I really don't know, but I'm glad you're enjoying Flash.

它确实非常便宜。

It is very cheap.

而且它实际上是我们的一个模型，价格比你支付给谷歌的还低30%，因为我们有一大笔免费积分正打算用掉。

And it's actually one of the models that we have 30% off even below what you pay Google, because we have a bunch of free credits that we're trying to burn through.

所以这大概就是它特别便宜的原因。

So that's why it's probably especially cheap.

但说实话，我真的不知道。

But yeah, I really don't know.

正如我所说，这需要快速完成。

Like I said, it needs to be done quickly.

对吧？

Right?

所以，如果你在执行真实查询之前先运行一个闪查，就会引入延迟，对吧？

So like, if you have to run a flash query before your real query happens, you're introducing latency, right?

所以这 definitely 是一门艺术。

So it's definitely an art.

在所有这些因素中，对吧？

Out of all the things, right?

比如，当你在搭建系统时，成本、能力、延迟可能是三个主要的权衡因素。

Like if you have cost, you have competency and you have latency, Like maybe those are the three main trade offs when you're like trying to do your setup.

我认为对最终用户来说，延迟可能是他们最愿意妥协的一点。

I think for end users, probably latency is the one they're most willing to take a hit on.

有很多任务，说到底，我只要启动它们，然后就去继续生活，照顾孩子之类的，或者去做别的事情。

There's a bunch of tasks that like, at the end of the day, I just send the thing running and then I go live my life and, you know, take care of kids and whatnot, or do another task.

是的。

Yeah.

我愿意省钱，但保持能力。

I'd be willing to save money, but maintain competency.

我完全愿意做出牺牲。

Like I would a 100% be willing to sacrifice.

是的。

Yeah.

几分钟。

Minutes.

是的，你可能会

Yeah, you might

就在那里。

be right there.

而且在一个你设置好就不管它、过十五到二十五小时后再回来的世界里，让那个所谓的笨模型尝试一下是有道理的。

And also in a world where you're, where you're setting it and forgetting it, and you're coming back fifteen, twenty five hours later, then it does make sense to let the dumb model, so to speak, have a crack at it.

因为现在我们已经到了可以甚至用笨模型以无懈可击的方式测试笨模型的地步。

Because now we're getting to the point where you can even use the dumb models to test the dumb models in, you know, foolproof ways.

对吧？

Right?

所以如果你能让笨模型构建一些东西，然后你为它写测试，或者它自己写测试。

So if you can have the dumb model build something, and then you can write tests for it, or it will write tests for it.

如果它通过了所有测试，那它就认为自己做得不错。

And then if it passes all the tests, then it determines that it did a good job.

如果它没通过测试，也许它会升级模型再试一次，对吧？

And if it doesn't pass the test, and maybe it upgrades the model and tries again, right?

所以是的，我同意。

So yeah, I agree.

也许延迟是所有这些因素中价值最低的。

Maybe latency is the least valuable of all those.

你知道，某些任务，比如自动驾驶，显然延迟很重要。

You know, certain tasks, like if it's self driving, then obviously, latency matters.

因为如果系统有延迟，就可能发生车祸。

Because then you're in a car accident, if the thing has latency.

但我认为，对于很多情况，人们愿意接受这种延迟带来的影响。

But I think for a lot of things, people are willing to take the hit for it.

你最近推出的另一个让我很兴奋的功能是，你加入了在安全围栏中运行的模型，类似于Maple一直在做的。

The other big feature you launched recently that I was excited about is you added these models that are run-in secure enclaves similar to what Maple has been doing.

你如何在你的整个产品体系中看待这一功能，以及你们是如何实现的？

How do you think about that in your full product suite and how you implemented

我很高兴我们能使用一个能抽象掉很多复杂性的提供商。

I think it's I'm glad that we were able to use a provider that abstracts away a lot of the complexity there.

因为PPQ正试图在很多方面都做得很好。

Because what PPQ is trying to do many different things at a pretty good job on many things.

所以我们没有时间去深入研究安全围栏是如何工作的这些细节。

And so we didn't have time to dig into how the secure enclaves work and this and that.

所以我们找到了一个帮我们完成大部分工作的供应商。

And so we found a provider that did a lot of that for us.

因此我们能够顺利推出这个功能。

And so we were able to get that out the door.

到目前为止，它实际上相当受欢迎。

So far, it's actually quite popular.

通过API设置起来很困难。

It's hard to set up through API.

所以当你使用我们的用户界面时，情况是这样的：用户在将内容发送给我们之前需要先加密。

So when you come to our UI, we do so the thing is, is the user needs to encrypt their content before they send it onto us.

对吧？

Right?

因此当他们在浏览器中使用PPQ时，我们可以帮他们完成加密。

And so when they're using, you know, PPQ in the browser, we can do that encrypting for them.

但当他们通过API使用时，我们必须构建一个特殊的代理，他们基本上需要克隆自己并部署它。

But when they're using it through the API, we had to build out this special proxy that they basically clone themselves and deploy.

所以现在每次他们通过我们发起API请求时，都会先经过这个代理来加密所有内容。

So now every time they run an API request through us, it's running through that proxy first to encrypt everything.

因此，在API端需要多做一些设置。

So it's a little bit extra setup on the API side.

但，是的，我对这些模型非常兴奋。

But, yeah, I am very excited about these models.

我认为，特别是OpenClaw，向我们展示了当AI能够开始解决个人问题时，它就会真正进入主流。

I think that OpenClaw especially shows us that AI is like gonna really hit mainstream when it can start solving personal problems.

对吧？

Right?

但个人问题正是你最需要隐私的地方。

But personal problems are where you want the most privacy.

因此，这些模型除了人们当前的使用方式外，还会有许多其他应用场景。

And so, these models, there are gonna be many use cases for them beyond what people are currently using them for.

我认为这将非常强大。

And that's gonna be very powerful, I think.

你可以将这些功能应用于大量的个人应用数据。

You'll be able to run this stuff on a lot of your personal app data.

而且你可以相当有信心地认为，只有你自己才能访问这些数据。

And you will be able to do so with relative confidence that only you will have access to it.

所以，我对这些模型非常看好。

So yeah, I'm very bullish on these models.

而且，我们一直对人们采纳这些模型的速度感到惊喜。

And yeah, we we've been we've been pleasantly surprised by how quickly people had adopted them.

是的。

I yeah.

我的意思是，我觉得这对我来说很有道理。

I mean, look, I think that makes a lot of sense to me.

我不确定，像我这样的人有多少意识到这个问题的存在。

I don't know how I like I'm kinda interested, like, how many people are even aware of the concern at this point.

我觉得很多人只是把他们的生活数据上传到专有模型，通常是在一个订阅账户下，每一次搜索、提示和数据都与同一个用户绑定。

Like, I think a lot of people are just, like, uploading their lives specifically to the proprietary models, usually under a subscription account that every search and prompt and data is all tied to the same user.

但我确实认为这个愿景与Maple团队的看法不同。

But I do think the dream and I disagree actually with the Maple guys on this.

这个愿景是把所有东西都集中在一个地方。

The dream is to have it all in one place.

你知道的。

You know?

我认为这里存在不同的观点。

I think there's different schools of thought here.

但我确实喜欢你们在PPQ上做的这种方式。

But I do like how you did it with PPQ.

我的意思是，我注意到Venice——可能是你们最大的竞争对手之一——也做了类似的事情。

I mean, I noticed Venice, which is probably one of your bigger competitors has done similar.

但我喜欢你们能够使用那些能力更强的专有模型这一理念。

But I like the idea that you have the ability to use the proprietary models that are significantly more competent.

然后在同一界面中，还能使用运行在这些安全围栏中的开源模型来处理更私密的内容。

And then you in the same interface, be able to use the, you know, open source models that are running in in these tees, the secure enclaves for more private stuff.

我认为这又回到了之前关于成本、能力和延迟的讨论。

And I think it goes back to the earlier conversation with cost and competency and latency.

我的理想是有一个类似四分卫的角色在后台自动运作，它会判断哪些任务应该私有化，哪些应该使用专有且更昂贵的模型，而哪些甚至应该本地化，对吧？

Like my dream is that I have some kind of quarterback that's just automating in the background and is probably a model, I think, which things are going private, which things are going proprietary and more expensive and less private, maybe even local, right?

你知道的，把本地化也融入其中。

You know, like mixing local in there.

也许这个四分卫是本地运行的，但所有这些功能都应该整合在一个界面、一个平台上，默默地为我完成一切。

Maybe the quarterback's local, but it should all be kinda in one interface, one platform that is kind of doing it all in the background for me.

是的，我以前从未这么清晰地思考过这个问题。

Yeah, I've never thought about it that clearly.

但我认为你说得完全正确。

But I think you're absolutely right.

这对我来说非常有道理。

That makes a lot of sense to me.

这些模型各有不同的能力和权衡。

These models have different capabilities and different trade offs.

而且大多数人将因能够使用所有这些模型而受益。

And you should most people will benefit from having access to all of them.

没错，真正的秘诀在于有一个小小的‘四分卫’为你做出这些决策。

And yes, the secret sauce will definitely be when there's a little quarterback making those decisions for you.

这样你就无需了解每个模型的具体功能了。

So you don't have to have all this competency about what each model is doing.

你始终需要有

You'll always need have

有些情况是，正如你所说，许多用户甚至没有意识到，当他们放弃这些数据时，自己承担了怎样的成本。

some of You'll always need to have the users, as you say, many of them are not even aware of the costs that they are bearing when they give up this data.

但我认为，人们会越来越意识到这一点，而且他们已经开始意识到了。

But I think, you know, people will become more aware of that and they already are.

因此，未来几年，这将成为每个人逐渐形成的思维框架。

And so, yeah, it's going to be this mental framework that everyone evolves to in the coming years.

我的哪些数据是仅本地使用的？我的哪些数据被发送到了云端？等等。

What data of mine is local only what data of mine is, am I sending to the cloud, etc?

是的，我的意思是，这对我来说已经超出了人工智能的范畴，它关乎我更广泛的自由科技运动经验，包括构建项目、进行用户教育以及直接与终端用户打交道。

Yeah, I mean, like, this is a bigger this goes bigger than AI to me, you know, it's, it's my greater experience in the freedom tech movement and building projects and doing user education and dealing with users, end users directly.

比如，无论是比特币、Nostr还是Tor，这些加密通信技术历来都需要用户承担极大的个人责任。

Like our biggest, whether that's bitcoin or Nostr or Tor, you know, message encryption, all these things historically have required immense personal responsibility.

而结果就是，个人责任总是更难做出的决定，因为你必须自己承担责任，而不是让别人替你做。

And then the result is personal responsibility is always a more difficult decision because you have to take responsibility, you don't have someone else doing it for you.

所以，这些工具在使用过程中充满了大量摩擦。

So what happens is we have a ton of friction throughout these tools.

由于存在摩擦，我们永远无法达到那些受控且被监控的替代方案那样的规模，因为那些方案实在太简单了。

And then because there's a friction, we'll never hit the level of scale that the controlled and surveilled alternatives have because they're just easy.

我总是说，我喜欢本，但如果你得看两个小时的BTC教程视频才能用一个工具，那我们已经完蛋了。

And I always say, I love Ben, but if you have to watch a two hour BTC sessions video to use a tool, like we're already fucked.

你已经输了。

Like you're already screwed.

对我来说，人工智能最酷的一点在于，我们可以通过使用开源模型、将模型部署在安全围栏中，来大幅减少整个技术栈中的摩擦，从而把大量决策从用户手中移走。

And to me, one of the coolest aspects of AI is that we could reduce a lot of the friction across the stack by using open source models, by using models that are in secure enclaves to kind of remove a lot of that decision making from the user.

但当然，仍然会存在一定程度的个人责任。

But of course, there's still going to be a level of personal responsibility.

我只是觉得我们可以大大减少这种责任。

I just think we can reduce that significantly.

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

对，我同意。

Yeah, I agree.

是的，我的意思是，我不确定你是怎么想的，我们刚才简单提到了 OpenClaw。

Yeah, I mean, I don't know how are you thinking about I mean, so we briefly mentioned OpenClaw.

我的意思是，自从我们上次录制以来，这可能是今年最大的亮点之一。

I mean, I think that was probably one of the big highlights of the year since we last recorded.

我的意思是，你显然对它有一些担忧，但从宏观层面来看，一个能在你电脑上运行、可配置的开源代理——而且它还是我们见过增长最快的开源项目之一——这种景象非常令人振奋，也彻底改变了这个领域的讨论和叙事。

I mean, you didn't you clearly have your concerns about it, but I think as on a high level, just the idea of a open source configurable agent that lives on your computer and has, I mean, one of the fastest growing open source projects that we've ever seen is pretty cool to witness and changes a lot of the conversation and narrative around the space.

你觉得这会是昙花一现吗？

Do you think it's a flash in the pan?

你认为这实际上是未来趋势的预兆吗？

Do you think it's actually a taste of what's to come?

你怎么看这个问题？

How do you think about it?

是的。

Yeah.

不，我认为这绝对不是一时的热潮。

No, I don't think it's a flash in the pan at all.

我对它的抱怨只是它太容易出bug，以及给我带来了多少客户服务上的问题。

My gripes with it are just how buggy it is and how much customer service problems it causes me.

这是个好问题，因为人们正在逐渐接受它。

It's a good problem because it's it's people are warming to it.

他们在尝试，他们想要，他们想要一个AI个人助手。

They're trying they want to they want an AI personal assistant.

这就是每个人想要的。

That's what everybody wants.

所以，不，这些东西只会变得越来越好。

And so, no, these things are only gonna get better.

它们会变得更少bug。

They're gonna get less buggy.

它们会变得更强大。

They're gonna become more capable.

而且，普通人将用他们的AI助手做令人难以置信的事情。

And, I mean, normal people are going to be doing incredible things with their AI assistants.

它将大大减少每个人生活中的各种麻烦。

And it's going to be removing a tremendous amount of friction in everybody's lives.

当你能有一个东西，帮你预订航班，并且真正正确地完成时。

When you can have something, schedule your flights for you, and actually do it correctly.

这些所有的梦想都还尚未实现。

And like, these are all the dreams, but it's not happened yet.

但你知道，帮你预订Airbnb并正确完成。

But, you know, book your Airbnb for you and do it correctly.

我最大的愿望是，每天早上能有一个为我生成的播客，包含所有我关心的内容，只需五分钟。

Give you a the my my big want is I want a morning podcast that's generated for me with all the things that I care about, five minutes every morning.

这算是我个人的一个小项目。

That's kind of my little personal project.

但世界上有这么多类似的想法，对吧？

But there's so many of these ideas out there, right?

而这只会让我们有更多时间去做自己真正想做的事。

And it's only going to make us able to live our lives doing more of the things that we want to do.

而AI助手会帮我们处理很多琐事。

And the AI assistants are gonna, you know, handle a lot of the for us.

所以，不，我认为这将是一场巨大的变革，无论是否由OpenClaw主导，也许它会是。

So no, I think that it's going to be a huge, huge movement, whether it's OpenClaw specifically, maybe it will be.

但目前已经有一打以上的个人助手代理存在了。

But there's already a dozen other personal assistant agents out there.

所以我们拭目以待，看哪些能胜出。

So we'll see which ones win out.

但这其实并不重要。

But it doesn't really matter.

我们知道这一切都会变得好得多。

We know that it's all going to get much better.

即使在六个月后，我也无法想象它们会变得多么出色。

Even in six months, I can't imagine how much better they're going to be.

是的。

Yeah.

不，我的意思是，我同意。

No, I mean, I agree.

这就是我喜欢这种节奏的原因。

That's why I like this cadence.

哦，希望我们一年后再做一次。

Oh, you know, hopefully we'll do it again in a year.

发生的事情太多了。

So much happens.

真有趣，你提到了个性化播客来为你更新信息。

The it's funny you mentioned the personalized podcast to update you.

事实上，我做的第一件事就是建立了一个AI新闻台，给我推送更新，然后我把它公开了。

Cause one of the first things I did was like, I built a AI news desk that is giving me updates, and then I made it public.

它在colyr.com上。

It's at colyr.com.

但它显示的是基于文本的。

But it says text based.

OpenClaw？

OpenClaw?

是的。

Yeah.

我有好几个。

I have I have multiple.

我有一个顶级新闻台代理，下面还有多个子代理。

I have a top top news desk agent, and then he has sub agents underneath him.

他觉得自己就像沃尔特·克朗凯特那样的人物。

And he thinks he's like a Walter Cronkite type of individual.

他正在收集各种不同的数据。

And he's like pulling in a bunch of different data.

然后每三小时，他们会通过Nostr发送更新。

And then every three hours, they're sending out updates on Nostr.

这些是经过签名和哈希的Nostr帖子，内容非常简短。

So they're signed, hashed, hashed and signed Nostr posts, just very brief text.

有趣的是，每三小时他们都会生成一份新的新闻简报并保留所有历史记录。

And what's cool is every three hours they're making this newswire that they're sending out, and they're keeping all the old ones.

因此，他们正在不断学习并随着时间推移变得越来越先进。

So they're learning and getting more advanced over time.

起初，我敢肯定他们以为——我说的是他——这些没有灵魂的机器人奴隶以为这是有史以来的第一场战争，因为他们一出生就身处伊朗冲突之中。

At first, I'm pretty sure they think, say he, I'm pretty sure these soulless robot slaves like think this is the first war ever that's ever happened, because they were born into the Iran conflict.

所以他们觉得，在战争时期，黄金价格正在暴跌。

So they're like, they're like, gold is crashing in the war era.

那里确实还有一点工作要做。

Like, there's a little bit of work that needs to be done there.

但这相当酷。

But it's quite cool.

对我来说，这很有趣，对吧？

And to me, it's interesting, right?

因为很多人一上来就想着，哦，要监控局势。

Because a lot of people have approached it, oh, monitoring the situation.

我们需要用人工智能来监控局势。

We need to monitor the situation with AI.

他们推出了像World Monitor这样的工具，还有许多分叉和其他东西。

And they release like World Monitor, and there's a bunch of forks and all this other stuff.

但它提供的信息量太大了。

And what it does is it's all it's like gives you way too much information.

在我看来，这项技术令人振奋的方面恰恰与此相反。

And to me, the cool liberating aspect of this tech is actually the opposite of that.

我不想花几个小时去看那些船运模式之类的乱七八糟的东西。

I don't wanna spend hours looking at, you know, ship patterns and all this other shit.

我想让我的代理直接告诉我：嘿，你需要知道这个。

Like, I want my agents to just tell me, yo, you need to know this.

你不需要看任何广告，也不用折腾这些玩意儿，然后你就可以去好好生活了。

You don't have to watch any ads or go through any of this stuff, and then you can go live your life.

所以我从完全相反的角度来看待这个问题。

So I kind of looked at it from the exact opposite of that.

让它们处理所有信息，然后给我一个精炼的简报。

Let them deal with all the information and then let them give me a distilled kind of brief on it.

但是关于

But on

所以你的Newswire项目下一步可以使用我们的TTS模型。

So you could use the next step could be for your Newswire thing, you could use our TTS model.

我们有11 Labs和Deepgram，你可以把它们用来填补这个完整播客生成流程中缺失的一环：你可以生成一个播客文件，但它很难直接接入Spotify、Apple Music或其他平台。

We have both 11 Labs and Deepgram, where you could convert that to the thing that's missing, there's still a missing link in this whole awesome podcast generation thing is you can create a file of of a podcast, but it does not easily plug into Spotify or Apple Music or whatever.

所以需要有人来创建这个功能，我已经有名字了，叫RSSify。

So there needs somebody needs to create, I already have a name for it, RSSify.

它基本上会把一个文件转换成一个私密的RSS订阅源，只有拥有链接的人才能访问。

So it basically takes a file and then it puts it into some RSS feed that's kind of private where only the person with the link can access it.

但这样你就可以直接让它自动上传到Spotify，所有的麻烦都会消失。

But then you could literally just have it auto uploading into your Spotify and and all of the friction would be gone.

这正是阻止我真正真正地……嗯，还有机器人任务的问题。

That's what's prevented me from, like, really, really Well, there's the bot tasks.

是的。

Yeah.

你先说。

Go ahead.

我的意思是，当你开始使用这些东西时，你会逐渐意识到开放协议更容易交互。

I mean, I think when you start playing with these things, you start to realize that open protocols are way easier to interact with.

而且好处是，RSS是一个开放协议。

And what's nice is RSS is an open protocol.

Nostr 这些东西和 Nostr 配合得非常好。

Nostr is it's all these things work really well with Nostr.

当然，如果你想要隐私就不行了，但如果你只是让它们把 MP3 上传到 Blossom——这是 Nostr 的视频、图片和音频文件规范——那么将 Nostr 频道转换为 RSS 频道就非常简单。

Obviously not if you want privacy, but if you just have them upload the MP3 to Blossom, which is the Nostr media spec for videos, pictures, and and audio files, MPP threes, it's really easy to turn a Nostr feed then into an RSS feed.

比如，Gigi 有一个简单的工具，他觉得特别棒，能直接把任何 Nostr 频道转换成 RSS 频道。

Like, Gigi has a simple tool that he vibed that just turns any Nostr feed into an RSS feed.

好处是你不需要存储或分发这些内容。

What's nice is then you don't have to store it or distribute it.

你可以和别人分享。

You could share with other people.

我觉得挺酷的是，我那个小小的新闻台，我父母也在用。

Like, I think it's kind of cool that my little news desk, my parents use it.

你知道，我只要发个链接给他们就行。

You know, I can just like send them a link.

显然，任何使用 Oster 客户端的人都能使用它。

Obviously, anyone in an Oster client can use it.

所以这只是个值得思考的问题。

So just something to think about.

但对，我理解你为什么想把它放在普通的播客应用里。

But yeah, I understand why you would want it in your regular podcast app.

但你甚至可以，我不知道，用 Spotify。

But you could even like, I don't know Spotify.

Spotify 在播客领域就像是邪恶帝国。

Spotify is like the evil empire in terms podcasting.

是的，他们允许你直接输入一个原始的 RSS 订阅链接。

Yeah, they let you just put in a bare RSS feed.

但像 Apple 播客，我认为 Android 上的播客应用也允许你

But like Apple podcasts let you I think you can apply on Android lets you

是的，我认为只要是在 RSS 订阅上，你就能把它添加到 Spotify。

Yeah, I think I think if it's on an RSS feed, you can get it into Spotify.

是的，你提到的这个 Blossom 东西。

Yeah, I is the Blossom thing you're mentioning.

那是一个我可以在手机上安装的应用吗？它能自动把内容加载到我的手机里？

Is that something that is, is that an app I can have on my phone where it automatically just loads into my phone?

因为这对我来说才是关键。

Because that's the thing for me.

Blossom 是一种用于哈希和复制媒体文件的协议。

Blossom is a protocol for hashing and replicating media files.

所以你不需要自己托管这些文件。

So you don't have to host them.

好的。

Okay.

那应用在哪里？

So where's the app?

我能直接点击使用的应用在哪里？

Where's the app that I can just press Well,

最酷的地方在于，当然，你可以在 Nostr 应用里收听，但 Gigi 有一个工具。

that's the cool piece is that, I mean, obviously, you could listen to them in a Nostr app, but Gigi has a tool.

我忘了那个东西叫什么了，就是能把这个直接转换的？

I I forget what it's called that converts any so like this right?

所以，Sale Dispatch，你可以在任何播客应用里搜索它。

So sale dispatch, you can search for it in any podcast app.

对吧？

Right?

它就像一个普通的 RSS 订阅一样托管。

It's just hosted like a normal RSS feed.

但我还会使用 Blossom 将签名并哈希过的音频文件上传到 Nostr。

But I also upload the signed and hashed audio files to Nostr using Blossom.

对吧？

Right?

我有一个 Nostr 账号：primal.net/citadel。

So I have a Nostr account primal.net/citadel.

它有自己对应的公钥之类的。

It has its relative, know, end pub or whatever.

GG 的工具可以将这个 Nostr 频道转换成一个完全不同的 RSS 频道，不依赖于单一的 RSS 主机。

GG's tool can convert that Nostr feed into a completely different RSS feed that is not reliant on a single RSS host.

比如我用 Pod Home 作为我的 RSS 主机。

Like I use pod home as my RSS host.

我用的是一个比特币爱好者。

I use a bitcoiner.

这是一个较小的 RSS 主机。

It's a smaller RSS host.

但如果 Pod Home 崩了，你通过我正常的 Citadel 发布频道收听就会中断。

But if Pod Home goes down, my normal Citadel dispatch feed you lose.

如果你是通过由 Nostr 频道生成的 RSS 频道收听，那些 Blossom 文件实际上被托管在六七个不同的 Blossom 服务器上。

If you are listening through the RSS feed that is made from the Nostr feed, those Blossom files are actually hosted in like six or seven different Blossom servers.

由于这些文件经过哈希和签名，你可以无限复制，而无需担心可验证性，因为它们是经过哈希的。

And because they're hashed and signed, you can replicate them to infinity and not worry about verifiability, right, because they're hashed.

是的。

Yeah.

这对我来说相当有趣。

So it's kind of fascinating to me.

因此，这使得Dispatch在摆脱单一RSS主机方面具备了更强的弹性和鲁棒性。

So it gives Dispatch, for instance, some resilience and robustness from having a single RSS host.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

有道理。

Makes sense.

但不管怎样，我想再多聊聊OpenClaw。

But anyway, we kinda, I wanted to talk about OpenClaw a little bit more.

我的意思是，我不认为这只是个一时兴起的计划。

I mean, so the reason so I don't think it's a flash in the plan.

我同意你的看法。

I agree with you.

我觉得看到这一点真的很酷。

And I think it was really cool to see.

对我来说，这简直是一个瞬间的顿悟：也许这件事的开源部分真的能胜出。

And to me was kind of an moment on, oh, maybe the open source side of this thing can really win out.

但我说它是昙花一现，是因为我们已经看到，Anthropic先是给他发了停止函。

But why I say a flash in the pan is we're already seeing, you know, Anthropic has just been well, first they sent him a cease and desist.

然后他去了OpenAI，好像被Aqua聘用了，我也不太清楚具体怎么回事。

Then he went to OpenAI, he got like kind of Aqua hired, kinda, what I don't even know.

这是一个开源项目，所以有点奇怪。

It's an open source project, so it's a little bit weird.

但我理解他为什么这么做。

But I get why he did it.

然后Claude那边一直在不断发布新版本。

And then Claude, they've just been releasing left and right.

基本上都是OpenClaw的专有替代品。

Basically, proprietary alternatives to OpenClaw.

显然，我们刚才在讨论个人助手。

Obviously, we were talking about personal assistants.

很多年前，十年前，这正是Siri的卖点。

This is what the selling point was for Siri all those years ago, ten years ago.

Siri现在还是挺蠢的，但当初的设想是Siri能帮你预订预订之类的事务。

Siri's still retarded, but the idea was Siri was supposed to book reservations for you and stuff.

谷歌显然在开发Gemini相关产品，已经让很多人用上了G Suite。

Google's obviously working on Gemini stuff, already has people all in G Suite.

所以当我提到‘昙花一现’时，我不是说它会完全消失，而是你怎么看待这种二元对立？

So when I say flash in the pan, I don't mean disappearing completely, but how do you think about that dichotomy?

我觉得绝大多数用户都会选择苹果的中心化专有替代品、Claw的中心化专有替代品，或者谷歌的替代品，而不是开源的方案，比如OpenClaw或者其他开源项目。

I feel like the overwhelming majority of users are gonna use whatever Apple's you know, centralized proprietary alternative is, whatever Claw centralized proprietary alternative is, whatever Google's alternative is versus, you know, an open source, whether it's OpenClaw or something else out there.

是的。

Yeah.

我不确定。

I don't know.

我要说的是，我对此唯一了解的角度是，如果我们所谓的OpenClaws或其他名称的系统需要支持多种模态，对吧？

I will say that my one angle of knowledge on this is that if our OpenClaws or whatever you're going to call them, if they require many modalities, right?

如果现在它们主要依赖聊天，但刚才我告诉过你，你可以使用语音合成、语音识别、视频生成、图像生成等技术。

If, you know, right now they're just chat heavy, but I just told you, like, you can use TTS, you can use STT, you can use video generation, image generation.

有各种各样的模态。

There's all sorts of modalities.

而我在运行PPQ时发现，没有一家公司能在所有方面都做到顶尖。

And what I've discovered running PPQ is that no one company is best in class.

甚至就连其中的几项功能也是如此。

And even even a few of those things.

Anthropic的编码模型是最好的，但他们根本没有媒体相关的模型，对吧？

Anthropic has the best coding models, but I don't even, they don't even have any media models, right?

OpenAI的聊天模型可能是整体表现最好的。

OpenAI kind of has maybe the best all around chat model.

但它的媒体功能现在已经不怎么样了。

But its media is not that great anymore.

事实上，他们刚刚放弃了Sora 2，我想是一天前

In fact, they just scrapped Sora two, I think a day

或者两天前。

or two ago.

他们在这上面亏了大量资金，是的。

They were losing a shit Yeah.

在

Ton of money on

所以我的观点是，如果未来的最佳个人助手是高度多模态的，那么最佳的个人助手将是能够整合多家公司技术的那个，而不是仅依赖一家公司。

So my point here is that if the best personal assistants are very multimodal in the future, then the best personal assistant will be the one that can connect to the technologies of many companies instead of one company.

因此，这支持了开源或自己构建助手可能更占优势的观点，对吧？

And so, that's an argument to say that maybe open source or, you know, build your own assistant kind of wins, right?

你可以从每个类别中选择最优的方案。

Where you can just choose the best from each category.

是的。

Yeah.

在这个论点上，这仅是我了解的领域。

That's my only one area of knowledge in that argument.

我也这么认为。

I think so.

我觉得这是一个相当有力的论点。

I think that's a pretty I think that's a solid argument.

那么问题来了，我们能降低成本吗？

I think the question then becomes, can we get the cost down?

我认为答案很可能是肯定的，因为显然在使用订阅制专有产品的人群中存在巨大差异。

And I think the answer is probably yes, because obviously there's a big discrepancy between people using the proprietary stuff on subscriptions.

但这很合理，我认为开源相比专有产品有一个独特的优势。

But that makes sense to I think there's a unique advantage there that open source has that the proprietary stuff doesn't.

我也认为，人们并没有意识到供应商锁定的问题没那么严重。

I also think there's not as much vendor lock in as people realize.

是的，我也同意这一点。

Yeah, agree with that too.

可以更灵活地移动。

Can move around more.

你可以，是的。

You can, yeah.

正如我所说，Claude 拥有最好的编码模型，但现在已经有好几个模型表现非常接近了。

Like I said, Claude had the best coding model, but now there are several models out there that are pretty close.

我们还了解到，这不仅仅是模型的问题，还涉及工具和其他因素。

And we also learned that it's not just the model, it's also the tooling and stuff.

新推出的专有技术出现得如此之快，几天内就出现了强大的开源竞争者，这真是令人惊叹。

And it's amazing how fast some new proprietary thing comes out and then there's a very strong open source competitor within a few days.

所以，确实很值得关注。

And so, yeah, it's very interesting to watch.

今天刚有Anita Posh说她正在……我猜你也读过这个了吧。

Just today, Anita Posh was saying how she is I'm guessing you read this also.

今天在Nostr上，这是最重要的几条动态之一。

It's one of the bigger, bigger notes today on Nostr.

但确实，Anthropic 因为她在非洲而封了她的信用卡。

But yeah, Anthropic was blocking her credit card because she's in Africa.

所以现在她无法使用 Clock Cowork。

And so now she can't use clock co work.

她还说，PPQ 无法用于 Claw Cowork，我查了一下，发现确实如此。

And she's like, PPQ doesn't work for Claw Cowork, which I looked into, and it seems that is true.

你不能将外部的 API 密钥导入 Claw Cowork。

You cannot bring in outside API API key into Claw Cowork.

但我刚快速搜索了一下，发现有个叫 OpenWork 或 OpenCowork 的仓库。

But then I just did a quick search, and there's, like, a repo out there called OpenWork or OpenCowork.

开源代码？

Open code?

这不一样。

This is different.

OpenCowork。

OpenCowork.

OpenCowork。

OpenCowork.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我认为它大概有Claude Cowork95%的水平。

And so that is like, I would say probably 95% as good as Claude Cowork.

关键在于，她能不能快速部署起来？

And it's just a matter of, can she spin it up quickly?

这才是挑战所在。

And that's the challenge.

开源工具总是稍微难一点才能运行起来。

Open source tools, they're always a little harder to get up and running.

那么，我们能不能把入门门槛降低 enough？

So can we lower that barrier of entry enough?

对。

Yeah.

这对我来说很有道理。

That makes sense to me.

我看到你刚才在谈论一些我不太清楚的事情。

I saw I saw you popping off about I don't know.

你打算怎么称呼它呢？

Would you what to call it?

是比特币原教旨主义，还是因为你接受了太多不同类型的支付方式？

Bitcoin maximalism or something about the fact that you accept too many different payments.

我想我们上次也聊过这个话题。

I think we talked about it last time too.

我对这个问题可能有很多强烈的想法。

I may have a lot of strong thoughts on that.

是的。

Yeah.

你想简要讨论一下什么？

What do you wanna discuss that briefly?

我的意思是，你现在基本上接受所有类型的支付方式。

I mean, you're you're accepting basically every payment under the sun right now.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

我们接受一切支付方式。

We we accept everything.

我们的重点是比特币。

Our focus is bitcoin.

我们更愿意把开发时间花在构建新的比特币技术上。

We like to spend our development time building out new bitcoin tech as much as possible.

你不会看到我们去开发Solana或者以太坊之类的东西。

You're not gonna see us, like, building out Solana this or Ethereum that.

我们会加上Solana和Ethereum的支付方式，因为这很简单。

We will slap on Solana and Ethereum payment methods because it's easy.

但没错，我的观点和感受在这个问题上非常强烈，因为我认为比特币支持者或者纯粹的比特币信徒……

But, yeah, my my my argument, my feelings are, yeah, very strong in this area because I think that bitcoiners or bitcoin only types of people.

这对比特币有害。

It's harmful to bitcoin.

我可以举出非常具体的例子来说明这一点，这是我多年来在工作中积累的经验。

And I can give very concrete examples of this, as I've learned over the years in my work.

所以我一开始并不是在BitRefill工作，但我曾在BitRefill工作了好几年。

So I started off well, I didn't start off at bit refill, but I worked at bit refill for several years.

大多数人知道他们是一家比特币优先的公司，但他们也接受几乎所有支付方式。

And most people know that they are kind of a bitcoin first company, but they also accept pretty much everything.

我待得足够久，也分析了数据，发现比特币支付的占比在逐年下降。

I was there long enough and I was analyzing the data to see that the share of bitcoin payments was gradually going down over years.

而其他山寨币、稳定币之类的支付占比却在上升。

And the share of altcoins and stablecoins and whatever was going up.

如果BitRefill选择只支持比特币，我认为BitRefill现在可能已经不存在了。

And so if bit refill had made the choice to be bitcoin only, I don't think bit refill would be around anymore.

我认为他们会因为竞争对手接受所有其他币种而被吞并。

I think they would have been subsumed by competitors that accept all of these other coins.

那么，你是想要一个以比特币为先、能对此做出理性决策的公司吗？

So do you want, you know, kind of a bitcoin first company that makes rational decisions about this stuff?

还是想要一些非常纯粹、却举步维艰的公司？

Or do you want kind of just like very purist type of companies out there who kind of struggle.

我在推广PPQ时多次面临过这种情况。

And I faced this several times in marketing PPQ.

所以当PPQ刚推出时，它实际上只支持闪电网络。

So wanted to so when PPQ first came out, it was actually Lightning only.

这从来不是我的原计划。

That was not always my plan.

我一直知道其他支付方式迟早会加入，因为我曾在BitRefill工作，了解现实情况。

I always knew that the other payment methods were gonna come because I worked at BitRefill and I understood the reality.

但我一开始用的是闪电网络，因为我以为闪电网络是PPQ最酷的使用场景。

But I started with Lightning because I I thought Lightning is the coolest use case for PPQ.

但最初我把这个信息发布到比特币Reddit上时，前六个月根本没人理睬。

But I tried to post it on the bitcoin Reddit at first, and it was just completely ignored for the first, like, six months.

而到那时，我已经开始加入其他支付方式了。

And then by that time, I had started adding in other payment methods.

于是我重新发了一次。

And so I went back.

所以当我们获得一轮融资时，我想我再次提出了这个问题。

And so when we got our round of funding, I think, is when I asked again.

然后那个人终于回复了我。

And then the guy finally answered me.

我不知道谁在负责这件事。

I don't know who's in charge of it.

但他回复我说：不，不行。

But he answered me and said, well, no.

你在推广山寨币，所以我不会发你的东西。

You're you're pedaling shitcoins, so I'm not gonna post your your thing.

于是我去了加密货币版块 r/cryptocurrency。

And so then I would go over to the cryptocurrency redditr/r/cryptocurrency.

他们不喜欢我，因为我坚持比特币优先，所以他们也不发我的内容。

And they don't like me because I'm bitcoin first, So they're not posting me either.

这个故事已经上演了好几次。

And and this story has played out several times.

我曾经试着在 Bitcoin Jobs 上发帖，因为我想要招聘比特币开发者。

I've tried to like, I tried to make a posting on bitcoin or jobs because I want to hire bitcoiners.

对吧？

Right?

但他们不肯在我的 Bitcoin Jobs 帖子里发布招聘信息，因为我推广山寨币。

But they won't post my jobs on bitcoin or jobs because because I I pedal shitcoins.

尽管像 Strike 这样的公司，他们的应用里多年来一直有以太坊代币，我想是这样。

Even though some of the companies like strike, for example, they've had, you know, they they coins on Ethereum in their app for years, I think.

是的

Yeah.

我们实际上在全球范围内支持Tron上的Tether。

We support Tether on Tron actually, globally.

这是因为用户在那里。

And that's because that's where the users are.

用户将Tron上的Tether用作美元结算通道。

Users use Tether on Tron as a dollar rail.

在美国，人们使用美国银行。

In America, people use Bank of America.

而在非洲，他们使用Tron上的Tether。

And in Africa, they use Tether on Tron.

我们在那里提供了支持。

We supported over there.

当Strike进入阿根廷时，他们最初也使用以太坊上的USDT。

When strike went into Argentina, they were originally like USDT on Ethereum as well.

但不管怎样，这并不重要。

But anyways, it doesn't matter.

但对的，这种情况我已经经历过好几次了。

But yeah, this has played out several times for me.

而且我认为，真正关心比特币的人其实是企业。

And I do think that that attitude, it it people who actually care about bitcoin are businesses.

我不认为 PPQ 如果只做比特币就能生存下来，尤其是因为 PPQ 是一个规模型业务。

And I I don't believe that PPQ would survive being bitcoin only, especially because PPQ is a scale business.

我们带来的交易量越大，就能从供应商那里获得更大的折扣和其他优惠。

The more volume we bring in, the more volume discounts we can get from our providers and stuff like that.

所以我们必须争取整个市场。

So we have to go for the whole pie.

虽然我表达得不是特别完美，但我的确认为，很多其他比特币公司因为害怕被指责这样或那样，而被吓阻了，不敢采用其他支付方式或做些实际的事情。

And yeah, I'm not articulating it perfectly, but yeah, I I do think that it's I think that a lot of other bitcoin companies out there have been kind of scared into not adopting these other payment methods or or doing practical things because they're afraid of being called out for this or that.

我只是想尽力让我们摆脱这种束缚——我们不该被那些严格坚持只做比特币的人所左右。

And I'm just trying to do my best to get us past that where it's like, I I don't, you know, we we shouldn't be, like, beholden to these people who are, you know, strictly bitcoin only.

而且你知道，我认为对于少数几家企业来说，这样做是可行的，也能奏效。

And, you know, I think maybe for a handful of businesses, you could do that, and it could work.

但对于许多其他企业来说，你必须尽可能多地吸引客户。

But for many other businesses, you just need to go after as many customers as possible.

你需要解决他们生活中的实际问题。

And you need to solve real problems in their lives.

是的，山寨币和稳定币，尤其是稳定币，确实为全球各地的人们解决了实际问题。

And yes, altcoins and stablecoins, stablecoins especially, do solve real problems for people all around the world.

我更把比特币看作一场持续百年的斗争。

I look at bitcoin more as a century long battle.

我相信在我们历史的某个时刻，或者未来的某个时候，我们最终会走向只使用比特币。

And I do think we will end up at bitcoin only at some point in our history or at some point in the future.

到那时，你和我都可能已经不在了。

You and I may be dead by then.

但我确实认为，这是一段非常漫长的旅程。

But I do think that's it's it's, you know, it's a very long journey that we're going on.

我不认为现在应该自我隔离。

And I don't think that the right thing right now is to, like, self segregate.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我更认同你的观点，而不是不认同。

I mean, I think I align with your perspective more than I don't.

我觉得你看。

And I think look.

我认为，面对加密生态系统中如此多的骗局，这是一种自然的反应。

I think it's a natural response to so many scams in the ecosystem, in the greater crypto ecosystem.

这是一个相对简单的测试标准：人们是接受加密货币，还是只接受比特币。

And it's a relatively easy litmus test, like, if people accept crypto versus bitcoin only.

但以你所在行业的一个完美例子来说，比如威尼斯，我前面提到过，他们已经在自己的应用中构建了一整套代币体系。

But a perfect example in your own industry, would say is Venice, who I mentioned earlier, like they have a whole token scheme built into their app.

对吧？

Right?

他们有一个预挖的威尼斯代币，可以产生收益。

They have a pre mined Venice token that offers yield.

它运行在一个类似BNB的系统上。

It's operating on like a BNB style system.

这是他们整个应用的核心部分，而像你这样的人只是把它当作支付方式。

That is a core aspect of their entire app versus someone like you who is merely accepting it as payments.

那里应该有一个明确的区分。

There should be a delineation there.

这是一种完全不同的区分。

Like, it's a completely different delineation.

如果我没记错的话，从我们上次的对话中，你知道你们是一家比特币优先的公司，你们的利润以比特币持有，也提供比特币折扣。

And when I if I remember from our last conversation, you know, you're a bitcoin first company, you hold your profits in bitcoin, you offer discounts in bitcoin.

任何只要稍微深入观察一下的人，都应该非常清楚这两种公司之间的区别。

Like, it should be very obvious to anyone who actually looks more than just surface deep that of the differences between those two types of companies.

是的。

Yeah.

我希望如此。

I hope so.

但你知道，我并不认为Venice在帮助人们。

But, like, you know, I'm not a Venice is helping people.

但我确实认为他们在帮助一些人。

And I do think they're helping some people.

他们为一些人提供了隐私，这很好。

They're providing privacy for some folks, then that's great.

但我可以说是Venice的反对者，原因就是你提到的：他们搞了一个极其复杂的代币机制，整个设计就是为了从无知的投资者身上榨取资金，对吧？

But I am I am I am a Venice hater, I would say for the reason you brought up, they do have this, like, overly complicated token thing that basically is the entire design of it is to just bleed money from ignorant investors, right?

这就是它的目的。

That's the purpose of it.

我亲眼见过Eric本人描述过这个代币的机制等等。

I've seen Eric himself, like describe the token mechanics and this and that.

甚至在他的推文中，他也说，我不知道这个代币资产的价格应该是多少。

And even in his own tweet, he's like, I don't know what the price of this token asset should be.

但在他推文的结尾，他又说，哦，我想价格就应该是AI和资本的成本吧。

Then at the end of his tweet, it's like, Oh, I guess it should just be the cost of AI and then the capital.

那个在你持有一段时间后称为资本成本的是什么来着，对吧？

The what is that called the capital when you hold it for a period of time, the cost of capital, right?

是的。

Yeah.

他还说，估计这就是它的真正价格。

And he's like, guess that's the true price of it.

我只是想回复他：干得漂亮。

And it's I just wanted to reply like, good job.

你搞明白了。

You figured it out.

这正是它的本质。

That's exactly what it is.

其实根本不需要代币。

There's really no need for a token.

但没错，还有像威尼斯这样的公司，它们长期以来一直过度承诺隐私保护。

But But yeah, and then other things like that Venice has been they overly promise privacy and they have for a long time.

他避而不谈隐私问题。

And he glosses over the privacy stuff.

PPQ 的模型本质上和威尼斯的一样，但我们对此更坦诚。

PPQ has essentially the same model that Venice has had, but we're just more honest about it.

我们会告诉客户：嘿，你们得相信我们不会查看你们的查询内容。

We tell our customers like, hey, you need to trust that we're not looking at your queries.

你们必须明白，使用专有模型时，你们的内容会传给那些公司。

You need to know that when you're using a proprietary model, your content is going to those guys.

所以你们自己权衡着用吧。

So just use that as you may.

但威尼斯对这些问题太随意了。

But Venice is just very loosey goosey with those things.

真正让我生气的是，他们这套东西对他们自己有效。

And the thing that really kills me is, like, they it works for them.

他利用自己上百万的粉丝，以及他过去作为加密朋克式人物、换币达人那种声誉。

He's he's leveraging his million followers or whatever, and he his kind of reputation in the space as formerly like cypherpunk ish, you know, swap guy.

我不认为他真的那么在乎用户的隐私。

And I don't think he actually, like, cares about privacy all that much for his users.

他们最近也采用了TEE模型，就跟我们一样。

They recently adopted TEE models just just like we did.

是的。

Yep.

这很好。

And that's great.

正如我所说，我希望我没有显得太刻薄，但事实是他只有在人们大量在推特上指责他那些荒唐行为之后，才这么做的。

Like I said, I I hope I'm not coming on too too bitter, but it's like he only did it after people were really, really calling him out for a lot of the shenanigans that he was saying on Twitter.

对吧？

Right?

所以，是的，我的意思是，看到我这个小人物在这里努力坚持正义，而他却这样，真让我气不打一处来。

So, yeah, I mean, it's a it's it grinds my gears that I'm the little guy over here trying to trying to fight the good fight.

而他呢，就在那里发推文，大肆吹嘘自己的产品。

And then he's just like, you know, tweeting all these very brash things about about his product.

但没错，事情就是这么个事。

But, yeah, it is what it is.

这就是关键所在。

And that's that's the that's the bit.

你得用你手头现有的工具。

You have to use the tools that you have.

他靠的是自己的声誉，而我只能用我手头的任何工具。

He's using his reputation, and I'm using whatever tools I have.

你知道的，我可以批评他，而且我站在正义的一边。

You know, I can criticize him and and I have right on my side.

我没有很大的影响力，但我能一点一点地拆解分析这些问题。

I'm not I don't have a large voice, but I can kind of pick pick apart things.

所以，事情就是如此。

So it is what it is.

我的意思是，关于沃斯，你可以讲很多事。

I mean, you can say a lot of things about Voorhees.

我基本上同意你说的每一点，但他真的很擅长赚钱。

And I tend to agree with pretty much everything you said, but he's really good at making money.

他搞过Satoshi Dice。

He I mean, he had Satoshi dice.

他在交易费用让这个商业模式难以为继之前就把公司卖了，换回了比特币。

He sold it before transaction fees made it an untenable business model all for bitcoin.

然后他在山寨币开始流行之际推出了ShapeShift，赚了个盆满钵满。

Then he launched shapeshift right on the verge of, of shit coins, you know, hitting the populace made bank off of that.

而且他似乎总能出现在对的时间、对的地方，执行力强，还经常走捷径，但看着确实挺疯狂的。

And then he seemed to you know, he's always in the right place at the right time and executes and he takes a lot of shortcuts, you know, but it's kind of crazy to watch.

但我认为这正是那个话题的完美例子，对吧？

But I think that's just a good I mean, it's a perfect example for that conversation, right?

如果你比较一下PPQ和Venice，很明显哪个是真正以用户为中心、秉持道德、努力正确做事的。

Which is, if you can, if you compare and contrast PPQ versus Venice, it's obvious which one is trying to be user focused and ethical and try and do things the right way.

哪个是坚持比特币优先的，而哪个显然是个屎币项目。

And be bitcoin first, versus the one that is clearly a shitcoin operation.

但需要澄清的是，Venice也是个精明的商人，他自托管BTC Pay，接受比特币，同时也接受其他所有支付方式。

And and to be clear, Venice also, because he's a good businessman, like he self hosts BTC pay, he accepts bitcoin, along with every other payment method.

是的，他很清楚自己在做什么。

Yeah, he knows exactly what he's doing.

对。

Yeah.

马特，你曾经一度，我知道你是个数据专家，你有那些有用的郁金香。

Matt, at one point there, I knew you as the you were the data guy, you know, you had useful tulips.

你就是那个数据专家。

You're the data guy.

你有什么数据可以给我们吗？

Do you have any data for us?

关于PPQ这边，这很有趣？

That's interesting on the PPQ side?

我的两个主要好奇点是用户在模型选择上的行为，以及用户在支付方面的行为。

I mean, the two big things that I'm curious about is, like, user behavior on model selection and user behavior on the payments.

比特币支付是你们最常见的支付方式吗？

Like, how are the bitcoin payments your most common payment?

是的。

Yeah.

确实是。

They are.

是的。

Yeah.

我正努力想尽可能多地分享，但我想保留一点信息。

I'll I'm I'm trying I would love to share as much as I can, but I wanna hold a little bit back.

但我会说，感觉

But I will say Feel

免费。

free.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

比特币，特别是闪电网络，占我们交易的一半以上，略高于一半。

Bitcoin, Lightning specifically is our over half, just slightly over half.

门罗币排第二。

Monero's number two.

有意思。

Interesting.

第三和第四名在泰达币和信用卡之间大致持平。

And number three and four are kind of a balance between Tether and credit cards.

其余的则是一些其他的稳定币、莱特币之类的。

And then the rest are just various other stables and Litecoin and stuff like that.

高额度的信用卡或者Tether是指什么？

What's a high credit cards or or Tether?

老实说，我不太清楚。

They I honestly don't know.

它们俩差不多平分秋色，我觉得。

They're they're pretty neck and neck, I think.

这其实取决于每个月的情况。

It depends on the month, really.

我觉得Tether现在比以前越来越受欢迎了。

I think Tether is up and coming now more and more than it was.

但当我查看BitRefill的数据时，我认为BitRefill是加密货币支付最全面的样本。

But I actually look at this kind of when you look at the bit refill stats, and bit refill, in my opinion, is the best cross section of all crypto payments.

它是最大的在线加密货币电子商务网站。

They're the largest online crypto ecommerce website.

对吧？

Right?

所以闪电网络占他们交易量的5%左右。

So Lightning is about 5% of their volume.

可能比那高一点，但也不会高太多。

Maybe maybe higher than that, but not not much higher.

所以如果我想进入他们所占的这块市场。

And so if if I want I wanna get into the pie that they have.

对吧？

Right?

所以我需要提升在闪电网络和Nostr圈子之外的知名度。

So I need to increase my awareness outside of just the Lightning and Nostr circle.

对。

Right.

这就是我正在努力做的事。

So that's what I'm trying to do.

我确实想吸引那些其他用户。

I do wanna bring in those other users.