从教育到Anthropic：人工智能将产生什么影响？

嗨。

Hi.

我是迈克尔。

It's Michael.

你即将听到的是戴安·塔弗纳和我与尼拉夫·金斯兰德的对话，金斯兰德。

What you're about to hear is a conversation that Diane Taverner and I had with Neerav Kingsland, Kingsland.

他是教育界的老牌人物，现在任职于Anthropic公司，这是开发大型语言模型的主要公司之一，当然，Claude就是他们的产品。

Long time person in the education world who's now at Anthropic, one of the major companies behind, the large language models, of course, Claude being theirs.

这次对话让我有几项收获，但我只想为你重点强调其中几点。

And I had several takeaways from this conversation, but I just wanted to highlight a few for you.

第一是尼拉夫的谦逊，他不断表示，我们并不知道人工智能对教育乃至整个社会的全面影响究竟如何，这种坦诚令人印象深刻。

First was Neerav's humility in constantly saying, we don't know the answer to the full impact of AI on education, let alone society, and just how honest that felt.

第二，我深受触动的是，他如何看待AI家教作为这项技术的主要应用场景。

Second, I was struck by how much he sees AI tutors as being a major use case for the technology.

他还提到了像镜子或Elo这样的例子，作为这一方向可能的发展方向。

And he referenced things like a mirror or Elo, as perhaps examples of where this could be going.

第三，他提到了教师支持的重要性，无论是为了提高效率，还是为了帮助教学引导等。

Third, teacher support was something he named whether it be for efficiency gains or to help with facilitation and the like.

第四，我印象深刻的是，他反复强调在年幼的孩子直接与人工智能互动时需要保持谨慎，尤其是与大型语言模型本身互动时，因此他认为，包装层——或者说应用层——将是年轻人与人工智能互动的关键部分，不仅为了融入更多内容专业知识和搭建更多支持，也是为了防范人工智能本身可能带来的风险。

Fourth, I was struck by how he repeatedly emphasized importance for caution when it comes to young children interacting directly with AI, particularly the large language models themselves and his belief as a result that wrappers essentially applications, if you will, application layers will be a critical part of how young people interact with AI, both to build in more content expertise, more scaffolding, but also the protection, from AI perhaps itself.

最后，当我们问他未来学校最需要重视的是什么时，他提到的最后一点让我印象深刻。

And then finally, the last thing I'll leave you with was when we asked him what perhaps would be most valued in the years ahead for schools.

他说了一句话，这句话如今可能被低估了，那就是勇于冒险。

He said something that is perhaps undervalued today and that is risk taking.

这一点确实深深打动了我。

And that's something that certainly landed for me.

所以，希望你们喜欢这次与尼拉夫·金斯兰德的对话，我们下次在《课堂颠覆》再见。

So I hope you enjoy this conversation with Neerav Kingsland, and we'll to you soon on Class Disrupted.

嗨，迈克尔。

Hey, Michael.

嗨，黛安。

Hey, Diane.

是的，很高兴见到你，也很期待开启这场我们已在开篇集数中为观众预热的关于人工智能的对话，之后我们花了几个星期时间安排嘉宾。

It is, good to see you and excited to get into this, conversation that we've been teasing our audience with, in the opening episode, around AI, and then we had a few weeks to get our guests lined up.

我认为，正如今天这场对话将展示的那样，等待绝对是值得的，我猜。

And I think as, today's conversation will show, it has been well worth, the wait, I suspect.

但确实出现了很多新进展。

But there are a lot of developments.

显然，人工智能领域的大公司不断推出令人兴奋的更新，发布新的应用和功能等。

Obviously, AI, the large companies constantly making some exciting updates, rolling out new applications and features and the like.

因此，你和我一直在不断更新自己的想法，频繁地互相发邮件，我相信今天我们将继续深化我们的思考，非常令人期待。

And so you and I have been constantly updating our own thinking, emailing back and forth a lot, and I think today is gonna be really exciting to continue to update our thinking.

是的。

Yeah.

我同意。

I agree.

我经常和一些听众交流，他们说，这就是我们想就人工智能与教育展开的对话。

I have conversations regularly with people who listen, who say, you know, this is the dialogue we wanna have about AI and education.

而且说实话，我想不出还有谁比你更适合和我讨论这个话题了。

And, honestly, I can't think of a better person I'd like to be talking about this topic topic with.

今天我们邀请的嘉宾是尼拉夫·金斯兰。

Our guest today is Neerav Kingsland.

尼拉夫是迈克尔和我都认识多年的人。

And Neerav is someone Michael and I have both known for many, years.

他曾在新奥尔良卡特里娜飓风过后工作，帮助建立了全国首个公立学校系统，那里超过80%到90%的学生就读于特许学校。

And he's the reason why is he's worked in New Orleans in post Katrina days helping to build the nation's first public school system there where over 80% 90% of the students attend charter schools.

他曾担任‘为新奥尔良创办新学校’的首席执行官，之后在阿诺德基金会和里德·哈斯廷斯旗下担任多种慈善职务，并担任花旗基金的管理合伙人。

He served as the CEO of New Schools for New Orleans and then in a variety of philanthropic roles with the Arnold Foundation and Reed Hastings and managing a managing partner at the Citi Fund.

几年前，尼拉夫做出了一个重大转变，加入了Anthropic公司——这是一家领先的AI基础公司，以其大型语言模型Claude而闻名。

And and then, Neerav made this big jump a few years ago and joined Anthropic, which is, of course, one of the handful of leading foundational AI companies known for its large language model, Claude.

他在那里负责战略工作。

And he leads strategy there.

因此，既然尼拉夫同时精通教育和AI，我们很难想象还有谁比他更适合来开启本季节目，和我们探讨AI与教育的宏观图景。欢迎你。

So with education and AI sort of covered Neerav, it was hard for us to imagine someone better positioned to come and open this season and talk to us about, the big picture of AI and education, and so welcome.

我们非常高兴你能来。

We're really happy to have you here.

能来这里我太激动了。

So thrilled to be here.

谢谢，黛安。

Thanks, Diane.

不。

No.

那么，Neerav，我想从这一点开始，因为我真的很想了解你是如何从教育领域转向Anthropic的。

Well, so, Neerav, I I wanna start with this because I'd love to just understand your pathway from education to Anthropic.

我先说一下，黛安可能已经知道一些内容，但我还不知道。

And and I'll say upfront, Diane may already know some of this, but I don't.

在你的领英资料上，看起来你几乎是彻底离开了教育领域，全身心投入到了AI领域的领军企业之一。

On your LinkedIn, it looks like you effectively left education and moved hook, line, and sinker, if you will, into one of the leaders in AI.

所以，我很想了解，究竟是什么促使你做出了这样的转变？

So I would love to just understand what is you know, what led to the move?

你现在的日常工作是什么样子的？

What does your day job look like these days?

教育还在其中占有一席之地吗？

Is education still present in it?

帮我们理清一下这个发展路径吧。

Just just help us understand the pathway.

是的。

Yeah.

完全正确。

Totally.

从我在新奥尔良的时候起，我就一直在关注和阅读有关人工智能的内容。

So I had been following and reading about AI since my time in New Orleans.

真正吸引我的那本书是《奇点临近》，雷·库兹韦尔写的，那本书现在大概有25年历史了，但非常有远见。

The book that really hooked me was The Singularity is Near, the Ray Kurzweil book, which is, I don't know, 25 years old now, but pretty prescient.

我认为他预测AGI会在2033年左右出现，而我们现在就在这里。

I think he predicted AGI in, like, 2033 or something, and here we are.

所以，我觉得这让我意识到，虽然我技术上不够扎实，无法判断他有多正确，但如果这是真的，那确实很了不起，尤其是在读了这样一本书之后。

And so, you know, I think that opened my eyes to the possibility I wasn't technical enough to know how right he might be, but kind of big if true after you, you know, you read a book like that.

然后，作为一个外行，我继续阅读，听播客、博客等等。

And then, you know, as a layperson just kept on reading, listening podcast blogs and so forth.

真正让我触动的是GPT-2发布的时候，大概是在50年前吧。

And then it was really when GPT two came out, so kind of, you know, maybe 50

你比我们早多了。

You were earlier than us.

是的。

Yeah.

只是因为我当时试着用它写诗。

Only because I was, like, trying to write poetry with it.

我当时想，天啊。

And I was like, oh my gosh.

这写得真不错。

Like, this is pretty good.

我们可能已经站在了门口。

Like, we might be knocking on the door.

所以，你知道，我开始想，这些想法和技术可能是人类历史上最重要的事情，而我们可能已经非常接近了。

And so, you know, I just started thinking, like, this, you know, these ideas and this technology could be the biggest thing to ever happen to humanity, and we might be getting pretty close.

于是我开始认真考虑转行。

And so I started thinking very seriously about a career change there.

而这个转变过程要稍微缓慢一些。

And the the transition was a little more gradual.

我联系了一些开放慈善机构。

I reached out to open philanthropies.

我认识那里的一位负责人，名叫霍尔登，他负责那个基金会。

I knew the leader, a guy named Holden there, who ran that foundation.

那是达斯汀·莫斯科维茨基金会。

That's Dustin Moskowitz Foundation.

我只是问了问，有什么我可以做的。

And just asked if there's anything I can do.

我知道他们做了大量关于AI安全的工作。

I knew they I knew they did a lot of AI safety work.

而且很酷的是，他们身边有很多年轻的创始人，而我当时已经稍微年长一些了。

And in a cool way, they had a lot of young founders, and I, at at that point, was a little older.

因此，他们推动了非营利和慈善事业的发展。

So it scaled nonprofit and philanthropic work.

于是我成为一名执行教练，作为一些AI安全创始人的顾问，兼职做了大约一年半。

So I became an executive coach, just kind of adviser to some AI safety founders And did that on the side for about a year and a half.

我因此了解了这个领域，结识了许多了不起的人，最终与Anthropic团队有了交集。

So got to know the field, got to know a lot of amazing people, and eventually, paths crossed with the Anthropic folks.

他们的使命和团队让我印象深刻。

And, I was wowed by their mission and the team.

所以我大约三年前加入了他们。

And so I joined about three years ago.

那时候还没有ChatGPT。

Now it was before Chad GPT.

我加入的时候，它确实是一个很小的研究机构，然后，是的，剩下的就是历史了。

So it was really a small research org when I joined, and then, yeah, the rest is history.

所以你的职业轨迹非常有趣。

So I it's it's such an interesting trajectory.

坦白说，这是一个绝佳的例子，说明了如何让自己置身于某件事的中心，从而实现这样的转变。

It's such a cool example, frankly, of putting yourself in the middle of something, right, to make that sort of a switch.

这之间是怎么联系的呢？

How does it connect?

比如，这是否让你感觉某种程度上离开了教育领域？或者，你是否觉得这是以另一种方式重新诠释了你的目标、人生事业，以及你过去所做事情对人类影响的脉络？

Like, does it feel like you're leaving education in some ways, or does this feel like some other way of framing it in terms of, you know, your own purpose, life work, the arc of, the things that you've done in terms of impact on humanity?

我真的很想了解这些见解。

I I I just love to get that insight.

是的。

Yeah.

我仍然深度参与教育领域。

I'm still very involved in education.

我在Citi Fund董事会任职。

I'm on the board at Citi Fund.

那里有一位新领导者，马龙·马歇尔，他非常出色，所以我也通过这个渠道保持联系。

There's a new leader there, Marlon Marshall, who's absolutely fantastic, but so stay connected through that.

在我加入Anthropic的头几年，我们主要只是努力生存下来，那时我几乎无法在研究上做出贡献。

And then, you know, my first couple years at Anthropic, we were mostly just trying to stay alive, and I didn't have much to contribute on research.

所以我负责业务、销售、商务拓展和融资，做了大约两年半。

So I was doing business, sales, BD, fundraising, and did that for about two and a half years.

于是我从教育非营利组织转行做了两三年的SaaS销售，这很不错。

So I went from education nonprofit to, like, SaaS salesperson for, you know, two or three years, which is great.

我学到了很多，而且显然，这对公司的成功至关重要。

I learned a lot and, you know, very important, obviously, for a company to succeed.

大约一年前，我们的首席执行官达里奥写了一篇名为《爱与恩典的机器》的文章，我强烈推荐，文中提出了对人工智能在社会中积极前景的展望。

And then about a year ago, our CEO, Dario, wrote this piece called machines of love and get grace, which I'd highly recommend and set forth kind of a positive vision for AI in society.

那时，我们的收入已经稍微稳定了一些。

And at that point, we were a little more stable on revenue.

于是我和另外几个人主动请缨，创建了Anthropic内部的一个组织或团队，名为Mission Labs。

And so I and a couple others kinda raised our hands to go create a org within Anthropic or a unit called Mission Labs.

所以我现在就在这个团队，我们在这里孵化那些能帮助AI为世界带来积极影响的项目。

And so that's actually where I sit now, where we incubate projects, that can help AI do good in the world.

我做过一些教育方面的工作，也帮助推动了我们在生命科学领域的药物发现项目。

And so I've done some educational work, helped get our life sciences kind of drug discovery work going.

我现在正在从事网络安全防御方面的工作。

I'm working on cyber defense now.

关于这些内容，我可以详细展开讲讲。

I can go into more detail on any of that.

但通过这些经历，我深感自己无比幸运，能身处Anthropic，而且是在一个以使命为导向的部门——其目标就是孵化利用AI做好事的项目。

But through that, like, I just feel insanely fortunate to sit in, both at Anthropic and then in a part of the org about mission, you know, is to incubate projects to do good with AI.

这太令人着迷了。

It's that's fascinating.

Anthropic能设立这样一个专注于这些议题的部门，真的非常棒，尤其是在这些领域不断涌现的当下。

That's really neat and and great of Anthropic to create a division that's focused on all those questions as it emerges.

我们也会在节目笔记中附上那封信的链接，因为我觉得这对听众理解背景非常重要。

And we'll make sure to link also to that letter in the show notes because I think that's an important one for the audience to to have the context.

在Diane发言之前，我还有一个问题。

I just one more question before, Diane, you can jump in there.

但我很好奇。

But I I like, I'm curious.

我们现在听到各种说法，认为AI将彻底改变教育。

We're getting all these hot takes right now that AI is gonna radically transform education.

有人说AI将是教育史上最大的灾难，也有人认为它最多只是带来些许改进，甚至在某些方面彻底摧毁了教育的本质。

AI is gonna be the worst thing to ever hit education, or maybe incremental at best to you know, it actually obliterates the purpose, of education itself in some pretty significant ways.

你能给我们简要说明一下你在这个连续体上的立场吗？当然，你也可以补充一些细节。

Give us sort of your headline of where you sit on that continuum, and and you can provide the nuance.

我刚刚已经给你列出了这些观点。

I just gave you the headlines.

请谈谈你的看法。

Navigate.

是的

Yeah.

也许幸运地，或者不幸地，这些任何一种头条都可能成为现实。

Maybe fortunately, unfortunately, any of those headlines could end up being true.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

我们可以看看如何促成好的结果。

And, you know, we can see what we can do to get to the good outcomes.

我想，也许让我先从教育的微观层面开始，也就是当今教育的现状，然后再宏观一点来看。

I think maybe let me start more at the micro of, like, education as it exists today, then we can zoom out a bit.

完美。

Perfect.

在大多数方面，这是我从事教育领域十五到二十年来，对教育最乐观的一次。

In most ways, this is the most optimistic I've been about education, you know, in the fifteen to twenty years I've been working in the field.

我真正非常兴奋的两件事是AI家教。

The two things that I am really, really thrilled about are AI tutors.

我有一个四岁和一个六岁的孩子。

I have a four year old and a six year old.

我经常拿他们做实验，真的让我大为惊叹。

They I experiment on them all the time, and I've just been wowed.

你知道，我在新奥尔良的时候，科技领域还处于早期阶段，产品也相当初级。

You know, my time in New Orleans, was early days in the tech space, and the products were pretty nascent.

那并不是我们战略中的重要部分。

It wasn't a huge part of our strategy.

但现在，你想想，我简直无法想象在一个学校里，这竟然不是你思考中的关键部分。

But now, you know, I couldn't imagine running a school where that wasn't a pretty key part of what you were thinking about.

然后是AI家教，特别是像Mirror和Elo这样教孩子阅读的项目，我认为在小学数学方面非常出色。

And then the AI tutors, you know, specifically, the teaching kids to read programs like a mirror and Elo, I think, are very strong, for, like, elementary math.

我让女儿参加了一个叫Super Teacher的项目，我觉得非常好。

I have my daughter in a program called super teacher, which I think is wonderful.

然后，随着孩子年龄增长，我认为在高中和大学阶段，这类应用会越来越多。

And then, you know, as you get up, I think there's just more and more in the high school, college.

有一个叫Study Fetch的团队在我们基础上做了延伸，让我们非常兴奋。

There's a group called Study Fetch that builds on top of us that we're thrilled by.

所以感觉AI家教的出现只是时间问题。

So it just feels like the AI tutors are gonna happen.

它们很可能产生巨大影响，让我们几乎实现为每个孩子每天提供一到两小时高质量一对一教学的梦想。

They'll likely be very impactful, and we'll get fairly close to the dream of scaling a high quality, one on one instruction for at least an hour or two a day for every kid.

我另一个非常兴奋的领域是AI对教师的支持，既包括备课效率的提升，更体现在课堂引导方面。

The other thing I'm super excited about is AI teacher support, both of them kind of the efficiency sense of lesson planning, but more in classroom facilitation.

你们可能已经见过CourseMojo，这是Eric和Isha创办的，它将AI在课堂中提供实时反馈，这些信息反馈给教师，教师据此调整教学方式和课堂引导，这一切对我来说都相当神奇。

So you guys might have seen, CourseMojo, which Eric and Isha founded, where you basically combine, like, AI giving live feedback in a classroom, that information going back to the teacher, the teacher then being able to modify their instruction and how they're facilitating the class, and that all just seems pretty magical to me.

我也对这一点感到非常兴奋。

And so very excited about that as well.

我担心的问题是，人们可以用AI作弊。

The things I'm worried about are you can cheat with AI.

显然，我们已经看到这种情况发生了。

Obviously, we've seen that happen.

所以它可能会让你变笨。

So it can make you dumber.

你知道，Anthropic 故意不这么做。

You know, Anthropic intentionally doesn't.

我认为根据我们的使用条款，儿童使用我们的产品实际上是被禁止的。

I think it's actually against our terms of policy to be a child and use our product.

因此，我们非常希望在我们之上有一个应用层，专门为孩子塑造使用体验，以便我们将方向引导到正轨。

And so we really want there to be an app layer on top of us that is shaping the experience for a kid so we can push it in the right direction.

当然。

Sure.

再放眼长远，这一切最终会走向何方？

And then zooming out, like, where is this all heading?

你知道，我认为最大的机遇是我们有机会蓬勃发展。

You know, I think the greatest opportunity is we have a chance to flourish.

我们可以选择自己想要的工作、想要的教育路径，你可以想象出一个比当今世界上许多人不得不承受的苦役更美好的世界。

We can choose the jobs we want, the education paths we want, and you can imagine a much better world than the grind a lot of the world has to be in today.

我认为确实存在真正的威胁。

I do think there's a real threat.

有一个说法叫‘渐进式剥夺’，我建议读者们去了解一下。

There's a phrase like, intellectual pieces coming out on gradual disempowerment, which I'd encourage readers to get familiar with.

这基本上意味着，你交给人工智能的东西越多，你可能就越会放弃自己的智力和情感成熟度，人类可能会被削弱。

That's basically, you know, the idea of the more you hand off to the AI, the more you might hand off of your intellectual and emotional maturity, and humans could get disempowered.

因此，我认为保持在这一问题的正面一面显然非常重要。

And so I think staying on the good side of that is obviously very, very important.

所以，所有这些想表达的是，我同意所有这些头条和未来取决于我们，等等更多。

So all that's to say, I agree with all the headlines and future is, you know, up to us and some more.

这太棒了。

That was awesome.

非常有帮助。

Super helpful.

现在我们其实有十几个不同的方向可以继续探讨。

And I'm there's, like, 10 different directions we could go with that right now.

我认为迈克尔和我注意到的一点是，教育作为AI应用的案例和研究对象，其被提及的频率远超技术领域通常的情况，而我们对此并不习惯。

I think one of the things that Michael and I have noticed is that it feels like that across the board, education gets used as sort of a a use case and a a case study for how AI will be applied far more than it normally does, you know, in technology, and we're not used to this.

我们不习惯成为讨论的中心，也不习惯被置于这种关注的焦点。

We're not used to sort of being at the center of the conversation and what's happening.

因此，这对我们来说是一个非常有趣、值得深入思考的想法。

And so that's been, a really interesting, idea for us to grapple with.

你刚才提到的一点，尼拉夫，我认为这对大家来说可能很有帮助，那就是你并不期望18岁以下的K-12学生直接与Claude互动。

One of the things you said there, Neerav, was like, and I think this might be helpful to dig in for people, is that you don't, expect young people kind of under 18, k 12 to be engaging directly with Claude.

你期望在它之上有一层应用层，并且你提到了多种不同的项目。

You expect there to be sort of this app layer on top of it, and you named a variety of of different programs.

所以我希望能进一步展开谈谈这一点，因为大多数人并没有想到这一点。

And so I'd love to unpack that a little bit more because I don't think most people think about that.

他们以为AI就是那个对话框，你只是来回地与它对话。

I think they think AI is literally this this dialogue box, and it's just you go back and forth back and forth.

我们真正想探讨的是，当你在上面加一层应用层后，人们究竟如何与之互动？这对那些缺乏技能、经验和知识的年轻人来说，究竟意味着什么？

And we're really trying to uncover, you know, what does it actually you know, when you put that app layer on top, how does that how do people engage with that and what is what does that do especially for young people who who don't have skills yet and don't have experience and don't have knowledge.

当我们三个人使用对话框时，情况与那些尚未发展出分析能力、论证能力或专业知识的人完全不同。

It's very different when the three of us are using a dialogue box than with someone who hasn't really built their, you know, whatever they might be, analytical skills, argumentative skills, their their expertise.

所以让我们深入探讨一下。

And so let's dig in a little bit.

比如，谈谈谁在你们的基础上进行构建，这个过程是如何发生的，具体是什么样子的？

Like talk to us about like, who builds on top of you, and how does that happen, and what does that look like?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，从价值观的角度来看，我们需要对孩子们保持谨慎。

I mean, you know, just to start from, like, a values perspective, we need to be careful with kids.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

正如我们看到社交媒体、游戏等领域的情况一样，每当出现新技术时，你都无法预知它会对孩子产生什么影响，尤其是在这种技术中，孩子们基本上是在与一个越来越智能的人类般形象进行对话。

As we've seen, with social media, gaming, you know, whatever, whenever there's new technology, you don't know how it'll affect kids, in this technology, particularly when, you know, they're basically talking to a human like figure that is, you know, increasingly more and more intelligent.

是的

Yep.

我们的大脑并不是为这种情况而硬连线的。

Our brains weren't hardwired for that.

是的

Yep.

孩子们需要在使用AI方面得到支持。

Kids need to be, you know, supported in how they use AI.

所以我认为这就是我们的出发点。

So I think that's just, our starting point.

现在还处于早期阶段。

It's early days.

让我们不要犯下将来会后悔的愚蠢错误。

Let's not make dumb mistakes that we'll look back or we go at.

同时，让我们找到方法，让孩子们能够接触这项技术，从而从中受益。

At the same time, let's figure out ways to give kids access to this technology so they can benefit from it.

你知道的吧？

You know?

所以，比如说，从极端例子开始，如果你是个四岁的孩子，去和Claude、ChatGPT或者Gemini对话，你是学不会阅读的。

So, like, to start maybe at the extreme example, if you talk to Claude or you talk to chat GPT or Gemini and you're four years old, you're not gonna learn how to read.

这种事情根本不会发生。

Like, shit's not gonna happen.

但如果你用Elo这样的工具，或者像我女儿六岁时我用的Elo那样，你知道的……

But if you use Elo or a mirror like, you know, with my daughter, when she was about six, I started using Elo with her.

我当时非常确信，如果她每天只用这个应用二十分钟，就能学会阅读，这简直太惊人了，我根本没想到她需要多少人类辅导就能学会阅读。

And I was, like, pretty convinced that if she just did that for twenty minutes a day, she would learn how to read, which was, like, just spectacular that I really didn't think she needed much human tutoring to learn how to read given that app.

你可以想象，全球有多少孩子会因此受益，这将带来翻天覆地的变化。

And you can imagine how many curates across the world that would just be game changing for.

我觉得有趣的一点，涉及到未来教育的是，如果没有我陪在她身边，她是不可能坚持每天用这个应用二十分钟的。

The only piece that was interesting, I think, gets into the future of schooling is, there's no way she was gonna do twenty minutes of that app without me sitting beside her.

你知道的吧？

You know?

所以我认为，从历史上看，当我回想起在新奥尔良的那些日子，技术常常被用作一种看护工具，让老师能够进行小组教学。

So I think, historically, you know, when I think back in my times in New Orleans, very often tech was used as kind of a babysitter to allow the teacher to do small group instruction.

因此，对我来说，一个很大的疑问是——我知道，戴安，你是这方面的先驱——如何将这些工具引入学校，让老师感到自己对教学成果负有责任，是的。

And so a big curiosity for me, and I know, Diane, you're a pioneer here, is how to get these tools into the school in a way where the teacher feels accountable Yeah.

对发生的事情负责，并且学校的氛围能激励孩子坚持下去。

For what's happening, and that the culture of the school is motivating the kid, to get through that.

我知道。

And I know

是的。

Yeah.

像Alpha学校这样的团体现在正在深入思考文化层面的问题。

Groups like Alpha School are thinking a lot about the cultural piece now.

但确实，如果学校能真正优化与优质学习应用的互动，我们可能会取得惊人的进步，我真的这么认为。

But, yeah, just the idea that if school was set up to really maximize interaction here with the good app player, we could have, you know, amazing gains, I really do think.

但简而言之，我不认为让18岁以下的孩子对着屏幕打字就是一种优秀的教学方式。

But, yeah, that's the short of it is I I don't think typing into a box for maybe, you know, kids under 18 is just great pedagogy.

哇。

Wow.

你可以做更多事情，我们非常高兴能参与其中。

So much more you can do, and we're thrilled, to be doing it.

所以，关于应用层，也许最后再谈一点。

So maybe one last thing on on the app layer.

当我接手这个职位时，在使命实验室，因为我知道教育是我们可以起步的地方，所以我进行了一次集中冲刺，大概在两个月内与40到50家教育科技公司、慈善家和风险投资家会面，了解市场现状。

When I took over this role, in the Mission Labs, because I knew education was a place I thought we could start, so I just did a sprint and, probably over two months met with 40 or 50 ed tech companies, philanthropists, VCs to see what was out there.

然后，我们非正式地开始与其中10到15家公司合作，为他们提供我们通常给财富五百强企业一样的技术支持，但更多是出于使命驱动。

And then kind of informally, we just started working with 10 or 15 of them and giving them the same technical support we'd give to, like, the Fortune five hundred, but, you know, more out of a mission perspective.

通过这种方式，我们开始与许多应用开发者公司共同构建产品。

And so through that, we've got to start building with a lot of the app player companies.

我已经有一段时间了。

I've just been a while.

这真是太棒了。

That's pretty awesome.

当你与他们合作或构建时，具体是什么样子的？

What does that look like when you build or work with them?

我的意思是，我觉得人们根本无法想象这会是什么样子，你知道的？

I mean, I again, I think people have no idea what this would even, you know?

好吧，我们继续说这一点。

Well, and just to stay on that.

对吧，戴安？

Right, Diane?

我觉得很多人会说，为什么Anthropic不自己全部做完呢？

Like, I think a lot of people say, well, like, why doesn't Anthropic just do it all?

为什么我们还需要第三方公司开发的应用呢？

Like, why does why do we even need the apps that are from third party companies?

对吧？

Right?

完全正确。

Totally.

你知道吗，迈克尔，针对你的问题，我认为目前要真正理解对方——比如孩子及其需求——就需要具备相关领域的专业知识。

You know, Michael, to your question, I think most domains right now to really understand, like, the person on the other end, in this case, children and their needs, like, you need domain expertise.

你知道，也许有一天，Claude 出厂就能懂一切，但现在还做不到。

You know, maybe one day, like, Claude out of the box will know everything, but it doesn't right now.

它还不懂得如何像那些开发教育应用的教育工作者那样，成为一名优秀的教师。

It doesn't know how to be a great teacher the way, you know, educators building apps would.

因此，我们觉得它目前还不足以胜任所有工作，尤其是在教育领域。

And so, we don't feel it's ready to do it all, particularly in education.

而在我们所做的工作中，这更像是部署工程的一部分。

And then in what we do, it's kind of like for deployed engineering.

我们会让团队中一位擅长基于 Claude 构建的技术专家，进行一次需求沟通，了解我们合作机构的整体使命、产品路线图，以及他们希望 AI 能实现什么功能，目前在哪些方面遇到困难。

So we take a technical person on our team who's an expert at building on top of Claude, and we just you know, we'll do an intake meeting where we try to understand their overall mission of the org we're working with and then their product road map, what they want AI to be able to do, and where they're struggling.

然后我们会持续跟进，非常具体地协助他们。

And then we just stick in with them, then, you know, very tactically.

可能是一个共享的 Slack 频道，或者每周一次的会议。

It might be like a shared Slack channel or a weekly meeting.

我们会尽力观察他们正在开发的产品。

And, we try to get whatever they're building, you know, out to watch.

我们会一直陪伴他们，直到这件事达成。

We'll stick with them until that happens.

这太棒了。

That's awesome.

让我们转向年长一点的年轻人，这么说吧。

Let's shift to older, young people, if you will.

我认为，我现在真正关注的是年轻人高中毕业后，如何顺利进入他们未来的高等教育路径，找到第一份工作、职业和生活立足点。

I think you know I'm now, really focused on the successful launch of of young people post high school into, whatever their post secondary pathway is and into their first, you know, foothold job and careers and and life.

而且，我认为你们的CEO是最早、也是极少数真正坦诚地谈到AI可能对职业，尤其是对年轻人造成的短期乃至中期影响的人之一。

And, you know, I think that that your CEO has been one of the first and few people to be really honest about, you know, maybe the short sort of, you know, medium term impacts potentially of on careers, especially for young people.

我认为我们正在看到一些数据和统计表明，最近的大学毕业生在寻找第一份工作时遇到了困难，而AI可能是其中一个影响因素。

And I think we're seeing some data and statistics that suggest that, you know, recent college graduates are struggling to find first jobs and AI might be an impact there.

当然，经济环境等其他复杂因素也在其中发挥作用。

And clearly, there's complicating factors around the economy and whatnot.

但我觉得，如果我们回顾历史，可以合理地假设，面对如此巨大的变革，许多工作会消失，同时也会出现新的工作，但在过渡期间可能会出现一些时间上的断层，这可能会比较艰难。

But but I think if we look back in history, it's logical to assume with such a seismic transformation that we will see, you know, many jobs go away and new jobs will be created, but there might be some, you know, gaps in timeline where that's gonna be a little bit rough.

你是怎么看待这个问题的呢？

Like, how do you how do you think about that?

你觉得我们应该如何思考这个问题？

How do you think we should be thinking about that?

这对我们在高中和高等教育阶段应该关注什么产生了什么影响？对于我们这些直接服务孩子的人来说，这一点尤为重要。

How does that influence what you think maybe we should be focused on in high school and postsecondary, as we for those of us serving you know, directly serving kids.

是的。

Yeah.

举个例子，在Anthropic，我们努力保持开放和坦诚，如实分享我们所观察到的现象和未来趋势。

You know, think at Anthropic, just try to be open and honest about what we're seeing and where the text's going.

而且，归根结底，我们不是政策制定者，我们希望为公民和政府这些真正做决策的人提供信息。

And, you know, ultimately, we're not policymakers, And so we want to inform the people who, both citizens and government who are making this.

也许可以稍微跳出来一点，回到你的观点，我们以前也经历过类似的转型。

Maybe to, like, zoom out a little bit to your point, and we've been through these transitions before.

我们确实经历过，正如你所说，这些转变在发生时可能非常痛苦，即使最终我们会到达一个更好的境地。

We have and, you know, I think exactly to what you said, they can be painful while they're happening even if, you know, you end up in a better place on the other side.

但上一次我们经历的重大转变是从农业社会到工业革命。

But the last big one we went through was farming, to the industrial revolution.

与此同时，欧洲各地的君主制相继瓦解，随后我们花了大约一百五十年的时间，才逐步建立起资本主义福利民主制度——至少在欧洲和美国是这样，中间还夹着两次世界大战。

And then, you know, coinciding with that was basically the following of the monarchies across Europe, and then we went, a hundred and fifty year exploration to kind of get to capitalistic welfare democratic systems, at least in Europe and The US, and, you know, a couple world wars in between.

因此，那是一个极其动荡的时期。

And so it was extremely, you know, a tumultuous time.

所以，无论这次转型将如何展开，我都希望它能更加和平地进行。

And, you know, whatever happens in this transition, I hope it happens much more peacefully.

而且我认为，我们现在有了历史的教训，这可能是过去所不具备的视角。

And I think, you know, we have the lessons of history now and maybe a way we didn't back then.

所以，所有这些想表达的是，我认为，正如你所说，重大的变革很可能正在到来。

And so all that's to say, I think, just setting the stage, you're absolutely right, and big changes are likely afoot.

至于这些变化现在意味着什么，我觉得这是一个非常令人困惑的问题，我个人并没有很好的答案。

In terms of what that means right now, I find that to be a very confusing question that I personally don't feel like I have good answers to.

而且，你知道，我发现我生活在两个世界里。

And, you know, I find that I live kind of in two worlds.

一个是每天去Anthropic时的世界，另一个是回家后教孩子读书或做类似事情的世界。

One, when I show up at Anthropic every day, and then I go home and, like, teach my kids to read or whatever.

有时候，我真的不知道如何把这两个世界结合起来。

And I don't quite know how to put those two worlds together sometimes.

所以，简短的回答是，我真的不知道。

So I think the short answer is I really don't know.

比如，如果我还是个大学生，或者你知道的，我会有什么不同的做法吗？

Like, if I was a kid in college or, you know, what would I do differently?

这真的很难说。

It's very hard to know.

我会给出一个看法，因为我在参加播客，但这个观点信心不足。

I'll I'll give, like, a take because I'm on a podcast, but this is low confidence.

我认为，从某种程度上说，我一直在为自己的孩子思考的是实验和冒险精神。

I think things that I've been thinking about, you know, for my own kids on some level is experimentation and risk taking.

我认为我们在学校里可能已经被低估了，是的。

I think we're probably already undervalued in school Yeah.

相对于只是拼命学习和参加考试之类的。

Relative to just, like, grinding and taking a test and so forth.

因此，我认为在转型时期这会变得更加重要，因为路径会变得不那么结构化，我们也更不清楚方向。

And so I think that'll be even more important during a time of transition because the paths will be, less structured and and will just know less.

所以，尝试、失败，你越早在生活中多经历这些，可能就越好。

And so, trying, failing, you know, the more you can do that, the earlier in life, probably the better.

另一件让我好奇的事情是，管理人工智能的能力，就像管理小型团队一样，这可能会变得非常重要，因为管理团队是一项非常重要的技能。

Then another thing I've been curious about is the ability to manage AIs, like, as basically small teams could be a very important thing to like, you know, managing teams is a very important skill.

是的。

Yeah.

显然，我们都是在成长过程中逐渐学会这些的，看看现在的商学院，它们已经彻底围绕团队合作来重组课程了。

Obviously, we all grow through and, you know, when you look at business schools now, they've really restructured around doing work in teams.

因此，我一直很好奇，拥有一支为你工作的AI团队意味着什么？这应该如何影响高中、大学、研究生阶段以及早期职业发展？

And so I have been curious about what does it mean, to have a team of AIs working for you, and how should that affect, like, high school, college, grad school, and, early employment?

是的

Yeah.

说吧，戴安。

Go ahead, Diane.

作为一个长期痴迷于领导力和管理发展的人，我一直致力于推动人类在领导与管理方面转向更协作的方式，这让我感到非常有趣。

I was just so fascinating to me as someone who has been, pretty fanatical about leadership development and management development and tried to move when we're thinking about humans in that regard to a much more sort of collaborative approach to leadership and management.

现在当我想到人工智能时，我觉得我们可能正在走向另一个方向。

Now I think about AIs, I'm like, well, I think we might be going back the other direction.

我不确定你能采用那种协作式的人类方法。

I I'm not sure you take that collaborative human approach.

对吧？

Right?

我认为你会采取更传统的管理方式。

I think you'd take a more sort of classic management approach.

所以，这或许就是旧的会再次成为新的。

So this is maybe what's old will be new again.

是的。

Yeah.

我每次向Claude提出要求时都会说‘请’。

I I always say please when I'm asking Claude for things.

我也是。

I do too.

我倾向于保持良好关系。

Air air air on the side of staying on the good side.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但我欣赏你对这一点的坦诚，尼拉夫，因为我们现在对这方面还有很多未知之处。

I but I appreciate your honesty, Neerav, on, like, sort of there's a lot we don't know right now around this.

我想继续探讨一下Diane提到的当下年轻人与年长者之间的关系问题。

I I wanna stay on the question of maybe the here and now with the older side of the young people as Diane phrased it.

因为你提到了很多教授，比如作弊的现象。

Just because you're seeing a lot of professors you you mentioned cheating, for example.

你看到很多教授重新采用蓝皮书、口试这类方式，以及其他类似的做法。

You're seeing a lot of professors return to the blue book, oral exams, things of that nature, and stuff like that.

而且，一方面，我能理解。

And I I guess, on the one hand, I get it.

但另一方面，我觉得我们可能没有让学生去做真正该做的事。

And on the other hand, it feels to me like maybe we're not asking people to do the right things.

我们需要重新审视他们学习的目的，这样才能看清他们如何利用AI，结合所学的知识与技能，完成超越以往的事情。

Like, we need an update on the purpose of what they're actually doing in the work so we can see how do they use AI with the knowledge and skills that they're building to do something more than they could have before.

我只是希望你能和我们一起大声思考这个难题，谈谈你是如何界定这两种截然不同的教学方式的。

And I'm I'm sort of like, I I just love you to sort of think through that puzzle out loud with us about how you're framing those sort of two dichotomies of approaches.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我最近和一些人聊过，现在是做教育创业者、创办学校的绝佳时机，无论是在高等教育、高中还是其他领域，都是如此。

I mean, I was talking to a couple of greater time and a more exciting time to be an educational entrepreneur and to go create a school, I think, these reasons, whether that's a higher ed, high school, or whatever.

这真是一个绝佳的时机，去创办一所学校。

Like, what an amazing time to, go build a school.

所以，对于你们所有的听众，我希望有人正在做这样的事。

And so, for all your listeners, I hope there's people out there who are doing that.

这可能是世界上你能做的最棒的工作之一。

That's some of, you know, the best work in the world that you can do.

所以，总的来说，这正是我们新奥尔良的信念所在。

So, you know, I generally and this is what we, kind of the ethos of New Orleans.

在尝试找出什么有效、什么无效的过程中，充满了反复试验。

There's a lot of trial and error in trying to figure out what works and what doesn't.

现在，这种尝试需要在全国范围内广泛展开。

It just needs to happen broadly across the country right now.

因此，我对此的简短回答是：我希望很多人去尝试，然后我们从中学习。

And so I think my short answer to that is, I hope a lot of people try things, and we learn.

话虽如此，我们显然已有现有的教育机构。

That being said, we obviously have existing institutions.

我对蓝皮书这种做法相当理解。

I think I'm pretty sympathetic to the Blue Book thing.

我想那可能是我会做的事，嗯。

I could think that's probably what I would do Mhmm.

对于某种特定类型，我不希望所有考试都这样，但我确实认为在这一过渡阶段让学生写作文是件挺好的事。

For, like, a certain type of I wouldn't want that to be, like, all my exams, but I do think having kids writing classes, you know, in this transition is probably a pretty good thing to do.

我还觉得这引发了一系列问题，比如，如果这么多孩子都在作弊，我们的教育到底做得怎么样？

I also think it raises a bunch of questions about, like, how well are we doing on education if all these kids are just cheating.

对。

Right.

我们有这种激励机制吗？

Do we have the incentive Right?

比如，鼓励冒险精神。

Like, toward toward encouraging risk taking.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

或者，我的意思是，他们毕竟只是孩子。

Or, like, I mean, you know, they're kids.

所以，十八岁也不完全是孩子。

And so, you know, eighteen's not totally kids.

但让我担心的是，不知什么原因——不一定是因为孩子自己的错——他们并不真正重视学习本身。

But it worries me that, for whatever reason, not necessarily the kid's fault, they don't value the learning in and of themselves.

这可能是因为他们被灌输了错误的东西，因为学习太难，而我们所有人都太懒了，等等。

And that could be because they're getting taught the wrong thing, because it's hard, and we're all lazy or whatever.

但作弊也反映了人们不重视努力，这就引出了更大的问题。

But cheating is also a sign of people not valuing the work, and so that does raise larger questions.

是的。

Yeah.

听了你刚才说的，Neerav，我想到两点。

Two things coming up for me, in in what you're sharing, Neerav.

第一点是，你知道，你和我都花了大量职业生涯去帮助家庭和父母为孩子争取选择权、机会和资源。

The first is, you know, you but we've both spent a lot of our career in the space of empowering families and parents to have choice and options and opportunities for their children.

你正在谈论教自己的孩子识字和数学。

And you're you're talking about teaching your own children to read and math.

所以，我认为这显然会带来更多的选择、更多的机会和更多的自主性。

And so, I mean, I think it's it seems obvious that this is gonna give more options, create more opportunity, more autonomy.

但你知道，尤其是结合当前正在发生的许多政策变化，你是怎么看待这个问题的？

But, you know, especially intersecting with a lot of the policy changes that are happening, how how are you thinking about that?

你认为什么是可能的？

What do you think is possible?

你刚刚说，现在是创办一所学校的最好时机，但从家庭、也就是消费者的角度来看，你是怎么想的？

You just said never been a better time to, create a school, but how do you think about it from the family, perspective, the sort of consumer, if you will, perspective?

什么是可能的？

What what's possible?

是的。

Yeah.

让我感到非常兴奋的一件事是，几个月前，我有机会去卢旺达访问学校。

And the thing one of the things that's really exciting to me, I, a couple months ago, had the chance to go to Rwanda and visit schools.

有一个名为Rising Academies的优秀组织，我们一直

There's a great organization called Rising Academies that we've

在与之合作。

been working with.

是的。

Yeah.

真的非常出色，希望未来几年我们能在卢旺达、印度和非洲其他国家开展更多合作。

Truly spectacular, and, hopefully, we'll be doing more in Rwanda and others, countries in India or in Africa and then also in India, over the coming years.

但与大多数历史上的教育创新相比，我认为人工智能将减少不平等，因为它是一种低成本扩大优质教学规模的方式。

But AI relative to most historical education innovations, I think, will decrease inequality, because it's basically a cheap way to scale up great teaching.

如果你必须依赖个体人类教师，显然在扩展规模上会有限制，而人工智能则不存在这种稀缺性。

And, you know, if you have to rely on an individual human, there's obviously limits to what you can scale, and there's scarcity in that in a way there isn't with AI.

所以从家庭和消费者的角度来看，如果能做对，资源匮乏学校的学生将大受裨益。

So I think big picture on the family consumer, you know, people in under resourced schools, there should be a boon if we can get it right.

这让我感到非常乐观。

That just all makes me pretty optimistic.

是的

Yeah.

作为家长，能够拥有这些工具来帮助孩子应对落后等情况，我感觉更有力量了。

And I feel way more empowered as a parent, to be able to have these tools to use my kid if they were to falling behind or anything.

所以我认为，总体而言，只要能做好——避免作弊、正确使用外部资源，并让家长参与进来——就会非常理想。

So I think broadly, it should just be, if you can again get it right, avoid the cheating, get the outplayer right, and parents get involved.

我认为这对家庭来说会非常棒。

I think it should be amazing for families.

是的

Yeah.

这让我思考，人们会不会开始对学校寄予不同的期望，也许他们已经这样做了，因为学校确实告诉我们，他们关心课外活动、体育、社交互动和参与度。

It makes me wonder what if people are gonna start looking to schools for different things, and maybe they're already looking to schools for different things because they they do tell us they care about the activities and the sports and the social interaction and the engagement.

如果你在家学习阅读，又有个性化的数学辅导老师等等，这确实让人不禁思考：学校未来会是什么样子？

And if you're learning to read at home and you have your personalized math tutor and whatnot, it does sort of beg the question of what does school look like.

完全正确。

Totally.