Chris Duffy: How laughter connects us

我是艾伦·阿尔达，欢迎收听《清晰而生动的对话：关于连接与沟通》。

I'm Alan Alda, and this is Clear and Vivid Conversations About Connecting and Communicating.

笑声让我们彼此靠近，最基本的原因之一就是，我们都喜欢和爱笑的人待在一起。

One of the most basic ways that laughter brings us together is that we like to be around people who laugh.

对吧？

Right?

我们特别喜欢和那些能逗我们笑的人在一起。

We love to be around someone who makes us laugh.

就是感觉特别舒服。

It just feels good.

我们经常听到说，人际连接对我们的健康——无论是心理、身体还是精神层面——都至关重要。

You know, we're constantly told about how much social connection is important for our health, mental and physical and spiritual.

所以我觉得，这就是笑声作为一种连接方式的意义之一。

So I think that's one piece of of laughter as connection.

而另一点是，幽默让我们能够坦然面对自己的不完美——我们确实会犯错，会显得古怪，也会有缺陷。

And the other one is the humor allows us to acknowledge the ways in which we are so clearly imperfect, in which we are broken and weird and get things wrong.

它让那些所谓的‘问题’变得有趣又好玩。

And it makes those problems with us, and I put problems in quotes, it makes those funny and fun.

让对方和你一起笑出来。

It makes the other person laugh with us.

那些本该让人羞愧、把你推开的事，反而成了拉近彼此距离的纽带。

Instead of them feeling like shameful and things that push us away, they are things that bring us together.

这是喜剧演员克里斯·达菲，他写了一本关于我特别感兴趣的话题——幽默的书。

That's Chris Duffy, a comedian who has written a book on a favorite topic of mine, humor.

这本书叫《幽默而已》，不仅特别好笑，还深入探讨了笑声如何让我们活在当下、以全新视角看世界，最重要的是，把人连在一起。

The book titled Humor Me is not only very funny, it's an exploration of how laughter can root us in the moment, make us see things in new ways, and above all, connect us.

我真的很期待和你聊聊。

I've really been looking forward to talking with you.

你写的，简直就像在讲我的人生。

You wrote about my life.

幽默一次又一次地救了我。

Humor has saved me over and over again.

我真觉得你整个人就是一种激励。

I absolutely feel like you are are both an inspiration.

而且我所说的这些，说真的，这是我们第一次见面。

And everything that I've I mean, this is the first time we're meeting.

但每次听到你谈幽默，我都觉得我们想法特别一致。

But every time that I've heard you talk about humor, it feels like we are so aligned.

所以我也特别期待这次对话。

So I'm really excited about this conversation too.

是的。

Yeah.

我读每一页书的时候，都在心里说，这说的不就是我吗。

Every page I read in every book, I kept saying, this is me.

我懂这个。

I know this.

我也经历过这些。

I've been through this.

有个鲜为人知的事，我其实是直接从你那儿抄了整本书。

Little known fact is I actually plagiarized the entire book straight from you.

所以你愿意让我来这儿，真的特别慷慨。

So it's really generous of you to have me here.

这话题跟幽默有关。

So it's about humor.

在谈幽默之前，最好先说清楚你指的是哪种幽默，因为这个词能有太多不同的意思。

It's always a good idea to define what you mean by humor before you talk about it because it can mean so many different things.

没错。

Absolutely.

其实我写这本书的一个重要原因，就是觉得很多人对幽默的理解，我根本不同意。

And in fact, I think one of the main reasons why I wanted to write this book is because I thought that so many people have a definition of humor that I don't agree with.

现在有种流行的看法，觉得幽默就是当房间里最抢眼的那个人，大家全盯着你，你一开口就笑，你说话别人全听，好像你就是那个讲笑话的人。

There there's a seems to be a popular idea that humor is about, being the person in the room who everyone pays attention to, and they hang on your word, and they laugh at everything you say, and that you're kind of the the person talking and everyone listens to you.

但我认为，真正有幽默感，是能在生活中找到笑声和喜悦，能笑对世界的荒诞，也能笑对自己的傻气。

And I actually think that having a great sense of humor is about having laughter and, delight in your life and being able to laugh at the absurdity of the world in yourself.

所以很多时候，真正有幽默感的人并不是那个吸引注意的人，而是那个能欣赏世界荒诞之处的人。

And so frequently, that might not mean that you are the person who is getting the attention, but rather you're the person who is appreciating the absurdity of the world.

你不一定非得站在聚光灯下。

You're not necessarily the one in the spotlight.

对。

Yeah.

你说幽默有助于培养美德，让人变得更好，甚至能激发好奇心。

And you say that humor is good for developing virtues, make you a better person, and even curiosity.

你是怎么看待这一点的呢？

How do you see that working in that way?

说来好笑的是，

It's so funny to

我跟你说这些，其实你比谁都清楚。

be telling you this because you know this better than anyone.

但我觉得，我们之所以会笑，是因为我们突然从一个全新的角度看待这个世界。

But I I think that when we laugh, one of the reasons why we are laughing is because we are seeing the world from a slightly new angle.

这事儿我们根本没想到会这样。

It's something that we hadn't quite expected.

现实和预期之间总有个落差。

There's this gap between how things are supposed to be and how things actually are.

所以，接受我们可能并不掌握唯一正确的现实，接受世界可能随时出乎意料，这种心态其实特别棒——它让你愿意承认自己可能错了，也准备好迎接惊喜。

And so being open to that idea that we might not know the definitive version of reality, that the one exclusive way that things are, I think that's a really wonderful way to go through life with the idea that we might be wrong, that we might be surprised.

而很多时候，正是这种落差让我们笑出来，觉得好笑。

And and so often that's where the laughter comes in and the humor.

现在这个世界到处都是干扰，手机、新闻、各种信息，一不留神就容易心不在焉，没法真正活在当下。

And then the other part is, in a world where there are distractions at every turn, right, in our phones, in the news, in just about everywhere, it's, it's possible to not really be fully present in the moment.

笑声和幽默感却能把你拉回这一刻。

Laughter and humor are something that rude us in that exact moment.

当你和别人笑得前仰后合的时候，你就是完完全全在场的。

When you're laughing really hard with someone else, you are just there.

你不会一边和对方笑着，一边心里还惦记着待办事项或者邮箱里没回的邮件。

You are not half in the moment with them and half thinking about what you need to do or or what's going on in your email inbox.

你完全沉浸其中，笑得眼泪都掉下来了，肚子都笑疼了。

You are absolutely there laughing and having tears roll down your cheeks while your sides hurt.

我觉得在当下，这是一件非常重要又美好的事。

And and I think that's a really important and beautiful thing right now.

我注意到，那些有权力的人往往不会像你刚才说的那样开怀大笑。

Something I think I've noticed is that powerful people tend not to laugh at the extreme level that you just described.

对。

Mhmm.

我觉得是因为大笑让人变得特别脆弱。

I think because laughter makes you so vulnerable.

当你从心底笑得停不下来时，你就完全敞开了。

When you're really, really laughing from the gut, you're open.

你不再设防。

You're you're not defended.

你甚至有点失去控制。

You're you're a little a little helpless.

我完全同意。

I completely agree.

我觉得有必要说一下，还有一种笑声和幽默，不是那种好的类型，绝对不是我会推崇的类型，而往往是那些有权力的人更倾向于选择的——带点欺凌性质的幽默。

You know, it is important for me to say that there's another kind of laughter and another kind of humor that isn't the good kind, certainly not the kind that I would advocate for that I think powerful people tend to gravitate towards more, which is a little bit of the the bullying humor.

拿别人取笑来开心。

Laughing at somebody else's expense.

没错。

Exactly.

那种带着一丝冷笑的笑，心里想着：我比你强多了，你就是个软弱的怪人。

The the laughter where you have a little smirk and you go, I'm so much better than you, and you're a little weak freak.

你懂的。

You know?

那种笑声，我觉得绝不是好的类型。

That is not the kind of laughter that I think is the good kind.

事实上，我觉得这种笑很危险，在我看来，也许今天这种笑反而越来越流行了。

In fact, I think that's a pretty dangerous kind of laughter that that is, my opinion, maybe a little bit more ascendant today.

你知道吗，人们经常在说了些过分的话之后，拿这个当借口。

You know, people often weaponize this when they say something horrible.

他们就说：哎呀，我就是开个玩笑嘛。

They go, oh, I was just joking.

但你刚说人家‘脸长得像条鱼’，再想用‘我开玩笑的’来脱身，根本行不通。

And you really can't get away with saying I was just joking after you just said, you know, you have a face that looks like a fish.

没错。

Exactly.

除非你跟这个人认识了五十年，对方清楚你有多在乎他，才可能听出你话里的善意。

Unless you are someone who's known that person for fifty years and they know how deeply you love them, and they they take it in that way.

关键是要看语境。

Really get context.

我研究这本书时发现的一个特别有意思的笑话是：虽然我们现在觉得林肯是个悲剧人物，可他活着的时候，其实是出了名的幽默政客，特别擅长用幽默来凝聚内阁、赢得选举。

I mean, one of my favorite jokes that I found in in researching the book is I learned about how even though we think of Abraham Lincoln as a tragic figure because of how he died, in his time, he was thought of as one of the funniest politicians and, someone who used humor in in so many ways to bring his cabinet together to to get elected in the first place.

有一次辩论中，有人骂他两面派，他就讲了个特别妙的笑话。

And one of his great jokes was in one of the debates, he was accused of being two faced.

他说：‘如果我真是两面派，还会把这张脸给你看吗？’

And he said, if I was two faced, would I be showing you this one?

我觉得这笑话特别妙，拿自己的长相开玩笑。

Which I thought is such a great joke about his own bad looks.

你觉得笑声是怎么把人们联系在一起的？

How do you see laughter bringing us together?

我觉得笑声把人聚在一起最根本的方式，就是我们都喜欢跟爱笑的人待一块儿。

Well, I think that one of the most basic ways that laughter brings us together is that we like to be around people who laugh.

对吧？

Right?

谁要是能逗我们笑，我们就特别想跟他在一起。

We love to be around someone who makes us laugh.

就是觉得特别舒服。

It just feels good.

而且笑对健康的好处太多了，大家也总在说，人际联结对我们的身心健康乃至精神层面都特别重要。

And there's so many health benefits, and, you know, we're constantly told about how much social connection is important for our health, mental and physical and spiritual.

所以我觉得，这就是笑声带来联结的一个方面。

So I think that's one piece of of laughter as connection.

另一个方面是，我常常觉得，要想让别人喜欢我、佩服我、愿意和我相处，就得完美无缺，把自己收拾得漂漂亮亮的。

And the other one is I often fall into this idea that the way to make other people like me, the way to make other people be impressed by me, the way to make other people wanna spend time with me is to be perfect, to be as impressive as I can be, as put together as I can be.

但有趣的是，幽默恰恰让我们能坦然面对自己的不完美——那些笨拙、古怪、搞砸的时候。

And what's really fun is that humor is a way where it allows us to acknowledge the ways in which we are so clearly imperfect, in which we are broken and weird and get things wrong.

这些所谓的‘缺点’，在幽默里反而变得有趣又可爱。

And it makes those problems with us, and I put problems in quotes, it makes those funny and fun.

它让别人和你一起笑，而不是觉得尴尬。

It makes the other person laugh with us.

那些本该让人羞愧、想躲开的时刻，反而成了拉近彼此距离的纽带。

Instead of them feeling like shameful and things that push us away, they are things that bring us together.

有项心理学研究，我偶然看到后一直念念不忘，特别喜欢。研究者让助手假装去应聘工作，然后让其他参与者来评估这些应聘者。

So there's this study that psychologists did that I I came across and I thought about so much because I love it, which is they had research associates pretend to be applying for a job, and then they had their study subjects evaluate these people applying for their job.

结果发现，所有人都给那些符合条件的人打了更高的分。

And what they found is that everyone rated the people who were qualified for the job more highly than the unqualified people.

这倒不奇怪。

No surprise there.

但得分最高的是那些虽然符合条件，却在面试前把一整杯咖啡洒在衬衫上的人。

But the people who were rated the highest were the people who were qualified for the job, but just before they went in for the job interview had spilled an entire cup of coffee on their shirt.

他们走进来，说：‘天哪。’

So they walked in and they said, oh, no.

我身上全是咖啡。

I'm covered in coffee.

真不好意思。

I'm so sorry.

他们的评分反而比那些面试表现完美却没洒咖啡的人还高。

They were rated more highly than the people who nailed the job interview but hadn't spilled the coffee.

那到底是怎么回事？

Now what was that?

为什么会这样？

Why why did that happen?

因为他们让人觉得亲切。

Because they're relatable.

对吧？

Right?

他们进来的时候，能自嘲，别人也容易和他们产生共鸣。

Because they came in, they had a sense of humor about themselves, but also the other person could connect with them.

他们不是那种完美得不得了的候选人。

They weren't just this, like, perfect candidate.

他们就像是你能在他们身上看到自己的那种人。

They were a person who you could, see yourself in.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得特别有意思的是，不知为什么，人们总希望我做到完美。

And I think that to me is such a a profound piece of humor is that, you know, I think for some reason that people want me to be perfect.

但实际上，人们更喜欢你有点小狼狈，能笑着调侃自己的不完美，那样他们才觉得能和你连上。

But in fact, people love if you're a little bit of a mess, if you can laugh at your own way of being a mess because then they can connect to you.

他们不会觉得有压力。

They don't feel intimidated.

他们就喜欢这样。

They love that.

这太搞笑了。

This is so funny.

你说的这些，简直就像在写我的生活。

This I said, you wrote about my life.

我真有过完全一样的经历。

I had this exact experience.

我之前参加过一部百老汇话剧的试镜，特别想演这个角色。

There was a play I was being considered for on Broadway, and I really wanted to do it.

我和导演面谈的时候，本来想好好表现一下自己的聪明才智。

And I had a meeting with the director and it was all set to sort of impress him with how smart I was.

我也说不清楚。

I don't know.

但我刚坐下，拿起一杯水，就把水全洒在自己身上了。

But right at right as I sat down and picked up a glass of water, I spilled the water all over myself.

哦，我太喜欢了

Oh, I love

就是啊。

that.

那一刻，真实的我第一次出现在了房间里。

And it made the real me come come come into the room for the first time.

我觉得这正是最关键的部分。

I feel like that's such a profound piece of it.

对吧？

Right?

真实的我。

The real me.

因为你能感觉到别人是不是在演戏。

Because you can feel when someone else is putting on a show.

当你回归真实的自己时，那才是我们真正想要的。

And then when you get back into the real person, that is what we actually want.

对吧？

Right?

这样你才能真正地与人建立连接。

Then you can, like, connect on a real level.

能笑得出来，本身就是让那些伪装自然褪去的一种方式，感觉也没那么危险。

Being able to laugh yourself is a way for that pretense to fall away in a way that feels a little safer.

对吧？

Right?

因为这并不像在承认什么可怕的事。

Because it doesn't feel like you're admitting something horrifying.

相反，你只是在笑一个事实——我们都是普通人，都会犯错。

Instead, it just feels like you're laughing at the truth that we are all human, and we all have ways in which we mess up.

所以你总结了三个要点，三种找到幽默的方式。

So you have three pillars, three categories for how to find humor.

当下

Present,

笑自己，还有敢于承担社交风险。

laughing at yourself, and taking social risks.

我先问你关于‘在场’的事，这在我听来主要是留意周围的事物，留意正在发生什么。

Let me let me ask you about presence first, which sounds to me mainly noticing things around you, noticing what's happening.

完全正确。

A 100%.

我觉得‘在场’就是注意到这个世界里那些古怪又荒谬的细节。

I think of presence as noticing the strange and absurd things in the world.

如果你根本没注意到，就根本笑不出来。

You can't laugh at something if you don't actually notice it.

对吧？

Right?

我想到一个例子，不好意思啊，可能要把你这档播客的档次拉低到我这种幼稚水平了——就是你第一次去别人家的洗手间。

You know, the one way that I think about this, which is I'm so sorry to bring down the level of your podcast to to my level here, my my very immature level, but I think about it as the first time you go into someone's bathroom.

对吧？

Right?

就是你第一次走进洗手间，会注意到很多细节。

Which is like, you walk into a bathroom for the first time, you notice so much about that bathroom.

你会留意厕纸放在哪儿。

You notice where is the toilet paper?

是从上面绕过去，还是像莫西干头一样从后面垂下来？

Do they put the toilet paper over the top or do they have it hanging down the back like a mullet?

我第一件事就是看这个。

That's the first thing I check.

没错。

Yeah.

正确的放法明显是从上面绕。

And the correct way is clearly over the top.

从上面绕没错，但我一直在想，是不是有些人故意放下面。

Over the top, but I'm trying to find out if certain kind of person puts it under deliberately.

哦，故意把纸放下面的人，那就是个不守规矩的人。

Oh, well, person who puts it under deliberately is a is a delinquent.

这种人心理上有严重问题，得好好解决。

That is a a person who has deep psychological issues that need to be resolved.

你还会看别的吗？

What else do you do?

你会翻他们的药柜吗？

Do you go through their medicine chest?

你还会看多过分的东西啊？

What how how terrible are

你会打开柜子看看。

You look at you open the cabinet.

柜子。

Cabinet.

你会想，他们平时用什么护肤品？

You go, what kind of lotion do they have in here?

用什么肥皂？

What kind of soap?

你看看马桶座圈。

You look at the toilet seat.

上面有没有厚厚的垫子？

Does it have, a thick pad?

他们可能一坐就是好久，一边看书一边上厕所。

Like, they're just sitting on the toilet for a long time reading a book.

马桶旁边是不是堆着一堆杂志？

Do they have a pile of magazines next to the toilet?

那些杂志看起来像是湿过又晾干的？

Do the magazines look like maybe they were wet and then dry?

这到底是怎么搞的？

How did that happen?

我真想知道吗？

Do I even wanna know?

第一次进去的时候，你就会注意到这些细节。

Like, you notice all these things the first time you go in.

这些事，你真想知道吗？

Are these things mainly things you wanna know or not?

我曾经

I've

对。

Yeah.

听我说。

Well, listen.

在浴室里发现的很多事，其实你根本不想知道。

A lot of things you discover in a bathroom are things you do not wanna know.

但你去个几次之后，就再也注意不到这些了。

But when you go back a few times, you don't notice it anymore.

它们已经变成背景了。

It it has become background noise.

所以我一直在想，能不能在自己的生活中，多试着用这种第一次进洗手间的心态去看世界——真正去看见那些东西，而不是简单地想‘哦，这是洗手间’。要真正看清我每天带孩子上学走的那条路，看清我通勤路上的每一个细节，留意地铁里其他乘客的样子，而不是陷在那种自动播放的模糊状态里，对周围的一切视而不见。

And so I think about trying in my own life to to go into that new bathroom frame of mind as often as I can, to actually be seeing the stuff rather than to just think this is bathroom, to actually see what the bathroom is, to actually see what the road that I'm walking down that I take my kid to school is, to see what my commute to work actually looks like, to notice the other people on the subway rather than just being in this, you know, autoplay background blur mode where you're not actually noticing things.

你第一次在地铁上这么做的时候，是不是就看到了那些特别有意思的人和事？

Was it the first time you tried this on the subway that you got those really interesting views of other people?

每次我在地铁上这么做，都能看到特别精彩的人和场景。

Well, every time I do this on the subway, I get incredible views of other people.

有一次我这么做，注意到有个男人在读一本叫《如何让人愿意听你说话》的书。

I mean, I I one time I I I did it, and I noticed that a man was reading the book, how to talk so people will listen.

而他对面的女人，手里拿着一本叫《如何更用心地倾听》的书。

And then across from him, a woman was reading a book that said, how to listen more closely.

我当时就想，要是这两个人能抬起头，看到彼此坐在一起该多好。

And I I just thought, if only these two people would look up and notice that they're sitting across from each other.

他们简直就是天生一对。

These are soulmates.

这让我想到那些创办了‘劣质艺术博物馆’的人，真是异曲同工。

Interestingly, illustrated by the people who started the Bad Art Museum.

是的。

Yes.

我最喜欢的世界级机构之一，就是波士顿的劣质艺术博物馆。

So one of my favorite institutions in the entire world is the Museum of Bad Art in in Boston.

它的定位，顾名思义，就是这么回事。

And what they they are is kind of exactly what it sounds like.

这是一家不展示顶尖技艺作品，反而专门展出世界上最糟糕的艺术品的博物馆。

It's a museum where instead of displaying the best, most skilled art, they display the most horrifically bad art in the world.

展出的作品很多都是被人丢在路边，或者从旧货店淘来的。

And, often the art that is on display is found being thrown out on the side of the road, is found at, thrift stores.

这个博物馆特别搞笑，你进去看每一件作品，旁边都挂着一本正经的说明牌，详细列出材质、创作年代，还专门解释它到底差在哪里。

And the museum is so funny because you go and you look at each one, it has a very serious plaque explaining, like, what the materials are and when it was made, and then it explains what about it is so bad.

有时候会写：仔细看手部，你会发现每只手都多长了一个指节。

And sometimes it'll say, like, if you look closely at the hands, you'll notice that each hand has an extra set of knuckle.

或者写：肤色让人联想到妓院货架上最劣质的烈酒——你一看画中人的脸，心里就明白：这根本不是人该有的模样。

Or it'll it'll say the flesh tones bring to mind the top shelf liqueurs of a bordello, and you look at the people's faces and you go, that is not what human faces are supposed to look like.

但真正棒的是，这家博物馆的工作人员经常提到，当我们走进高端艺术机构时，往往会感到压力。

But the thing that's really great is that the people who run this museum, they often talk about how we can be intimidated when we go to a fine art institution.

对吧？

Right?

你会觉得，这些人肯定懂的比我多，毕竟这是重要又值钱的艺术品。

It's like, these people must know more than me because this is art that is important and valuable.

于是你一进去，就不敢表达自己的真实感受，反而不敢去想自己到底喜不喜欢那件作品。

And so you go in, and instead of having your own opinions, you feel intimidated to think about what you actually feel about that art.

但你走进这个‘劣质艺术博物馆’，就会觉得完全有理由说：‘这幅画哪里差，一目了然。’

Whereas when you go into the bad art museum, you feel a 100% justified to say that is what is so bad about that painting.

它差就差在这一点、那一点。

This is terrible in this way and this way.

所以他们甚至建议人们把参观劣质艺术博物馆和去普通美术馆搭配着来，因为这样能让你理直气壮地笑出来，同时也能坦诚地表达你对作品的真实感受——不管是喜欢还是讨厌。

And so they actually encourage people to pair a trip to the Museum of Bad Art with a trip to one of the regular art museums because it gives you this permission to to laugh, but then to also really be honest and authentic about what you really feel about the painting that you're seeing, whether it's positive or negative.

我特别喜欢这种理念：允许自己真实地感受，而这种真实、坦诚的人性，往往正是让我们笑得最厉害的根源。

And and I love that idea of, the permission to have what we actually feel, which, again, true, honest humanity is often the thing that is at the root of the things that make us laugh the hardest.

这让我想起搞笑诺贝尔奖。

It reminds me of the Ig Nobel Prizes.

太棒了。

Oh, incredible.

这个奖的初衷是表彰那些让你先笑出来、然后又让你深思的研究。

That was started with the idea that you present a study that makes you laugh at first, but then makes you think.

它逼着你真正去看清事物的本质。

It puts you in the position of really seeing what's there.

如果你只看到它的古怪就直接否定，那就没意思了。

If you see only the oddity of it and reject it, it's not as good.

因为它背后有时藏着非常真实的道理。

It's not as useful because that sometimes under this absurdity is something really true.

科学的很大一部分，其实都源于这种纯粹的好奇心。

And so much of science is rooted in this just passionate curiosity.

有时候，正是这份好奇把你带到了一个特别古怪的地方。

And so sometimes your curiosity leads you to a very strange place.

有一次，他们把搞笑诺贝尔奖颁给了一组研究者，他们研究的是为什么袋熊的粪便是方形的。

Like, one time, they gave the Ig Nobel Prize to a a group of researchers who had studied why is wombat poop square?

袋熊为啥拉立方体形状的便便？

Why do wombats poop cubes?

对吧？

Right?

但这些研究者后来又基于同样的好奇心和对生物系统的理解，做出了真正重要的发现。

But then those same researchers then go on and make really important discoveries that are led by that same curiosity and by that understanding of biological systems.

所以，哪怕他们发现了一件看似荒唐的事，也不代表它不会引出其他颠覆性的成果。

So even if they make one really seemingly silly discovery, it doesn't mean that that can't lead to other really transformative ones.

我亲自去参加过搞笑诺贝尔奖颁奖典礼，当时特别震惊的是，很多诺贝尔奖得主都来了。

When I went in person to the Ig Nobels, and I was struck by the fact that Nobel laureates, a lot of Nobel laureates attend this.

这些在各自领域里最顶尖、最有成就的人，居然会来参加这场活动，笑着讨论那些荒诞可笑的研究，因为他们明白这些研究有多重要。

So these are the most distinguished accomplished people in the entire world in their fields, and they come to laugh about the silly, ridiculous discoveries because they see how important it is.

我觉得，真正聪明的人反而更愿意自嘲，不会把自己看得太严肃。

And I think when you are actually really smart, you're so much more willing to laugh at yourself and to not take yourself as seriously.

我肯定你听说过这个。

I I'm sure you know this.

我真的很想知道你是什么看法。

I'm actually really curious to hear what what your opinion is.

不过，因为我接触过很多科学家，我发现跟聪明人聊天最好的方式之一，就是坦诚自己不懂，直接说：我完全是外行，物理根本一窍不通。

But as someone who has talked to a lot of scientists, one of the best ways that I found to talk to really smart people is to admit what we don't know, to say, I am a complete buffoon, and I don't actually understand physics at all.

那你能不能先给我讲讲，什么是物理？然后再跟我聊你的量子物理研究？

So can you walk me through what physics is before you tell me about your research in quantum physics?

我发现，当我这么对聪明人说的时候，他们反而会放松下来，我们聊得比我要假装懂他们所有东西时要有趣得多。

I found that when I say that to really smart people, it often disarms them, and we have a much more, interesting conversation than if I pretended to actually know all the things that, that they know.

然后他们还得勉强装出一副跟我平起平坐的样子，可明明我根本不是他们的同行。

And and then they have to kinda fake that they're talking to a peer when I'm obviously not their peer.

你跟人聊天的时候，有没有发现——

How do you find when you talk to I a

我早年也发现过同样的情况。

found the same thing to be true early on.

我采访过的科学家，估计得有几百人了。

I've interviewed, I guess, hundreds of scientists.

刚开始的时候，我犯了个错，以为自己对他们在说什么的直觉，不如让他们直接告诉我真相来得有用。

And I made the mistake in the beginning of thinking that my intuition about what they were talking about was not as as useful as getting them to tell me what they're actually talking about.

我觉得，敢于说‘我其实不懂’，也需要一定的自信。

I also think it takes a level of confidence with yourself to say, actually don't know.

对吧？

Right?

因为我们总担心，要是对一个聪明的科学家承认自己听不懂，就会显得很蠢。

Because it we're sometimes worried if I admit to a smart scientist that I don't know what they're talking about, that then I'll look like a fool.

但只要你这么做了，对话反而会更深入、更真实，真正让你学到东西，而不是假装自己懂那些你根本不懂的事。

But when you do it that way, you have a a much more meaningful and authentic conversation that actually leads you understanding something rather than pretending that you are something that you're not.

这还让我想到伊格纳茨奖，很多获奖研究之所以这么搞笑，是因为他们看待问题的方式跟别人完全不一样。

It also makes me think about how at the Ig Nobel Prizes, often, the reason why a a prize winner has done some research that is really funny is because they're just thinking about it in a completely different way than other people.

比如我那年去的时候，得人口学奖的那个人，研究的是‘蓝区’——就是那些有人活过110岁、长寿现象特别突出的地方。

Like, the year that I went, the person who won the prize in demographic science was a person who looked at the blue zones, the places where people live past 110 and they have all these incredible longevity.

那个人仔细一想，问：到底是人们真的活了那么久，还是这些地方根本就没做好出生登记，所以根本没人知道他们到底多大年纪？

And the person looked at it and said, is it that people are actually living so long, or is it that these are just places in the world where they have really bad birth records, and so no one actually knows how old they are?

结果他们发现，这些地方确实都没能把出生和死亡记录做好。

And that was they looked at it in a completely different way, they discovered that actually these are all places that have not done a good job of keeping birth and death records.

所以，人们可能根本没自己说的那么老，只是年纪大了，记不清了。

So it may not be that people are just as old as they say they are because they just kind of forgot.

等他们去办手续时，工作人员一查，说：你大概有一百一十二岁了吧。

And then when they go to get the paperwork, the guy goes, you're probably a 112.

对方就点头：哦，是啊。

And they go, okay.

对，我一百一十二岁。

I'm a 112.

你刚才提到自嘲，

You talked about laughing at yourself.

这是第二个关键，第二种找到幽默的方式。

That's the second pillar, the second way of finding humor.

你能说说，对自己笑是怎么帮到你的吗？

Tell me about how laughing at yourself has helped you.

我觉得最大的帮助是，让我摆脱了那种‘我不够完美’的羞耻感。

Well, I think the biggest way that it's helped me is to get me out of this feeling of of shame that I'm not perfect.

我越能笑自己那些荒唐和不足的地方，这些事就越没那么糟了，因为别人也会跟着笑，这时候我才明白，原来我不是一个人在犯错。

And I think the more that I can laugh at myself in the ways in which I'm ridiculous and fall short, the more that they don't seem as bad because then other people are laughing with me too, and I I see that, I'm not alone.

我现在正带着两个小孩子。

I'm parented two young kids right now.

和我儿子们在一起的时候，我有时候会死死盯着‘必须做什么’这个念头。

And when I'm with my boys, sometimes I will get so locked in to this idea of, like, what has to happen.

对吧？

Right?

我们得在这个时间赶到公园。

We have to get to the park at this time.

是的。

Yeah.

我非得这么走，还不能骑车，不然就赶不上 playground 了。

I have to go in this way, and and we're we can't ride our bikes because we'll be late to get to the playground.

但当我能笑自己一下，觉得这真荒唐的时候，

And then when I can laugh at myself and go, this is absurd.

我这么赶着去的地方，居然是为了玩。

I am rushing so that we can get somewhere to play.

笑过之后，我就从那种状态里跳出来了，能真正和儿子连上，跟他说：我现在是不是有点傻？

When I laugh at myself, it breaks me out of that cycle, and it lets me actually connect with my son and go, like, I'm kind of being ridiculous right now, aren't I?

我跟我老婆也是这样。

And the same thing with my wife.

对吧？

Right?

我经常这样，

Like, if I make I do this a lot.

说一些特别笃定的话。

I'll make, like, a very confident claim.

让你知道一下，洗碗机只有把碗盘这样放才能正常工作。

Just so you know, the dishwasher only works when you put the dishes in this way.

然后她会问："真有这回事？"

And then she will go, is that really true?

我会说："当然了。"

And I'll say, yeah.

真的没错。

It's true.

我可是认真看过说明书的。

I read the manual.

可她偏要换种方式放，然后启动机器。

And then she'll put them in another way and run it.

我要么硬撑着说这个明显不对的说法，要么就笑一笑，说："我刚才那话确实有点疯，对吧？"

And I can either double down on my obviously false claim, or I can laugh and say, I guess that was kind of an insane thing to say, wasn't it?

然后我们就能一起笑我这傻样，拉近距离，而不是我越说她越远。

And then we can laugh together at my ridiculousness and connect rather than me pushing her further away.

所以，我觉得幽默地看待自己，主要帮我在生活中打破了那种‘我懂的比实际多’的错觉，让我能更真实地和我爱的人相处。

So those are kind of the main ways I think that laughing at myself has has served me in my personal life is is to break me out of my feeling of knowing more than I actually know and and instead bring me into the being human with the people I love.

广告回来后，我会和克里斯·达菲聊聊，他曾经整整一年把公司领英主页上的职位写成CEO，尽管他根本不是。

When we come back from our break, I talk with Chris Duffy about how for a whole year he got the company LinkedIn to list him as its CEO, even though of course he wasn't.

顺便提醒一下，《清晰与生动》是非营利节目，所有收入在扣除成本后都会捐给石溪大学的科学传播中心。

Just a reminder that Clear and Vivid is nonprofit, with everything after expenses going to the Center for Communicating Science at Stony Brook University.

这个节目和中心都致力于改善我们彼此连接的方式，因为这种连接深刻影响着我们生活的方方面面。

Both the show and the center are dedicated to improving the way we connect with each other in all the ways it influence our lives.

你可以通过成为《清晰与生动》的赞助人来支持我们，网址是 patreon.com。

You can help by becoming a patron of Clear and Vivid at patreon.com.

在最高档位的赞助中，你可以每月参加我和其他赞助人的线上聊天，我还会为你录一段语音留言。

At the highest tier, you can join a monthly chat with me and other patrons, and I'll even record a voicemail message for you.

要么是一段得体稳重的留言，说明你暂时不方便接电话；要么是带点调侃的版本，说我此刻根本不想和任何人说话。

Either a polite dignified message from me explaining your inability to come to the phone, or a slightly snarky one where I explain you have no interest in talking with anyone at the moment.

我很高兴地告诉大家，那个带点调侃的版本要受欢迎得多。

I'm I'm happy to report that the snarky one is by far more popular.

如果你希望继续参与关于连接与沟通的讨论，欢迎前往 patreon.com/clearandvivid 加入我们。

If you'd like to help keep the conversation going about connecting and communicating, join us at patreon.com/clearandvivid.

patreon.com/clearandvivid。

Patreon.com/clearandvivid.

谢谢大家。

And thank you.

这里是 Clear and Vivid。

This is clear and vivid.

接下来，我们继续回到我和 Chris Duffy 的对话。

And now back to my conversation with Chris Duffy.

我们之前聊了幽默的前两个支柱。

We talked about the first two pillars of humor.

第一是当下意识，留意身边的事物；第二是学会自嘲。

One, presence, noticing things, and two, laughing at yourself.

剩下的第三个支柱，就是敢于承担社交风险。

Which leaves the third pillar, taking social risks.

对我来说，敢于承担社交风险，就是愿意被人笑话。

I think to me taking social risks is being willing to be laughed at.

笑自己是对自己有点幽默感，但承担社交风险意味着去做那些不按常理出牌的事，不走最安全的路，甘愿让人觉得你傻、荒唐或者可笑。

So laughing at yourself is having a sense of humor about yourself, but taking the social risk means to to do the thing that is not the, quote, unquote, normal thing, to not just go in the the path of least resistance and to be willing to maybe have people view you as being silly or absurd or ridiculous.

这不只是你自己怎么看自己，更是允许别人看到你这一面。

So it's not just viewing yourself in that way, but allowing other people to see that.

很多研究都表明，当我们这么做时，别人反而更喜欢我们。

And there's so much research that shows that when we do that, people like us more.

我们之前提到过咖啡洒在衬衫上的例子。

I mean, we talked about the the coffee on your shirt one.

还有另一个心理学研究，是关于面试时，如果有人用幽默的方式承认自己不懂某件事。

There was another, psychological study that looked at when people are in a job interview, if they admit what they don't know in a humorous way.

对吧？

Right?

比如被人问到数学，他说：‘加减法我还行，但一到几何，我就只能画个句号了。’结果人们反而对他评价更高、印象更好，因为他愿意拿自己开涮。

If they say they're at being asked about math and they say, you know, I'm pretty good at addition and subtraction, but geometry is where I draw the line, that people rated them more highly and they judged them more favorably because they were willing to laugh about themselves in that way.

这其实和自嘲是连在一起的。

So it ties into the laughing at yourself.

但我觉得，社交冒险的一个简单方式，就是在聊天的时候。

But then the one of the simple ways that I think of of taking social risks is, like, when you're having a conversation.

比如在晚宴上，最普通的开场白就是问：‘你哪儿人啊？’

The most normal conversation you can have at a dinner party, say, is to say, where are you from?

‘你做什么工作的？’

What do you do?

‘最近天气真够怪的。’

Pretty crazy weather recently.

‘哦，你喜欢你现在住的地方吗？’

Oh, and do you like where you live?

嗯，这种对话你一遍遍都在重复。

Okay.

你总是在说同样的话。

You know, you kinda have the same conversation over and over.

但如果你换种方式问他们，问一些有点冒险的问题，可能会让你显得有点怪。

But if you ask them instead something that's a little bit of a social risk, something that might make you look weird.

对吧？

Right?

你喝过最难喝的汤是什么？

What's the worst soup you've ever had?

这问题还真有点怪。

That's a strange question.

他们可能会想，这人是个‘怪汤控’，但同时也可能因此开启一段意想不到的深入交流，你们俩都会记得这次对话，聊得特别开心，笑个不停。

They might go, that guy is the weird soup guy, but it also opens up the possibility that you will have a real surprising connection that will, you'll both remember, and you'll have a really fun conversation where you laugh and connect.

这是否也包括当着大家的面敬酒或发表演讲？

Does this also include getting up in front of people and making a toast or giving a talk?

当然算。

Totally.

我觉得发表演讲或者敬酒，确实都属于社交上的冒险。

I certainly think that giving a talk or making a toast is a social risk.

你知道，当有人问我怎么让祝酒词变得有趣，或者如何在演讲中展现幽默感时，

You know, when people ask me for advice on, like, how do you make a toast funny or how do you have good humor in a speech?

我会建议他们少去刻意讲那种所谓的‘段子’，而是直接表达你真实的感受，通常这样反而能引来最大的笑声。

One of the things that I say is to to focus less on making a a quote, unquote joke, like a standard joke, and to instead state what you're really feeling, often that is what gets the biggest laugh.

对吧？

Right?

所以，如果你要致祝酒词，就告诉在场的人你有多爱这位新人。

So if you're giving a toast, tell the audience how much you really love the person at this wedding.

对吧？

Right?

比如说，在这种场合，社交风险可能在于不去走寻常路。通常大家会讲个笑话来掩饰自己的脆弱，但如果你说：‘我认识这个人一辈子了，能站在这里我感到无比荣幸，我真的非常爱他。’

Like, that is that might be the social risk in that setting is to not do the standard, I'm gonna give a joke that avoids my vulnerability, but instead to say, have known this person for my whole life, and I'm so incredibly honored to be up here, and I love them so much.

然后讲一个关于你有多爱他的、真诚感人的故事，这很可能会引发一种更深刻、更有意义的笑声。

And then to tell a story that is vulnerable about how much you love them, that may very well end in a in a deeper and more meaningful laugh.

再举一个很小的例子，如果你去大型场馆看演唱会，我常注意到的是，如果观众席里有人打喷嚏，台上的人说‘保佑你’，这完全不算笑话。

And an example of this that is just a really small one is if you go to a concert and it's in a big venue, something that I always notice is that if someone in the audience sneezes and then the person on stage says, bless you, That's not a joke in any way.

对吧？

Right?

这根本不是笑话，但观众几乎都会笑得特别厉害。

That's not funny, but the audience almost invariably laughs really hard.

大家都开始笑，因为大家感受到了这件事真实发生的样子。

They all start laughing, and it's because there's this acknowledgment of the reality of what happened.

对吧？

Right?

台下的观众被台上的那个人看见了，这种互动打破了他们觉得对方是隔着屏幕的错觉。

Like, the humans in the audience were seen by the human on stage, and it breaks us out of this idea that they're somehow behind a screen or something.

所以，仅仅是这样简单地承认现实，就常常让人发笑。

And so just that simple acknowledgment of the reality often makes people laugh.

我觉得，这个原则不用非得站在摇滚明星的舞台上才能用，你做祝酒词或者演讲的时候也可以用。

And I think you can take that principle without being a a rock star on a stage and use it when you're giving a toast or making a speech too.

‘社交风险’这个词让我想到了社交媒体。

The term social risks makes me think of social media.

对。

Mhmm.

我想知道你在领英上搞的那个举动，冒了什么风险？

And I wonder what kind of risk you took with your LinkedIn caper.

哦，没错。

Oh, yes.

我以前是五年级老师，后来成了脱口秀演员。

Well, I was a fifth grade teacher, and then I was a a comedian.

所以我从来不需要把领英当职业平台，因为当老师也好，做喜剧演员也好，都不是靠这个找工作的。

And so I've never had a use for LinkedIn as as a as a professional platform because that's not how you get jobs as a teacher, that's not how you get jobs as a comedian.

但我一直听说领英是个挺古怪的社交平台，上面的人都发特别正经的工作相关内容。

But I'd always heard about it as this kind of bizarre social platform where people posted very serious work related things.

所以对我来说，承担社交风险有时候就是去一个本不该我去的地方，看看那里到底是什么样子。

And so, you know, for me, taking social risks sometimes means going into a place that I wouldn't necessarily have a reason to be and exploring and seeing what it's like.

于是我上了领英，开始建了自己的个人资料。

And so I went on LinkedIn, and I started making a profile.