Michael Pollan: The mystery and marvel of consciousness

我是艾伦·阿尔达，欢迎收听《清晰而生动的对话：关于连接与沟通》。

I'm Alan Alda, and this is Clear and Vivid Conversations About Connecting and Communicating.

我这辈子很长一段时间都没怎么想过意识这回事。

I spent a lot of my life not thinking much about consciousness.

它就像我们呼吸的空气，无处不在。

It's kind of the water we swim in.

但另一方面，它又是我们拥有的珍贵礼物——内心这片私密空间，只要我们不愿意，谁也碰不到。

On the other hand, it's this precious gift that we have this interior space that nobody can touch if we don't want them to.

我们脑子里总有自己的声音在响。

We have these voices in our head.

那真是个值得探索的地方。

It's an interesting place to go.

真正改变我的，是我终于意识到这份礼物有多珍贵，而我们其实远没有自己以为的那么清醒。

The thing that has really changed is my recognition of what a precious gift this is and that we are less conscious than we can be.

因为科技，因为整个文明的结构，我们很容易就‘掉线’，变得心不在焉，而很多时候，我们确实就是这样。

Because of technology, because of the whole superstructure of civilization, we can really check out and be mindless, and and we are a lot of the time.

所以从那以后，我意识到意识是值得捍卫和保护的，我们需要一种‘意识卫生’。

So I came out of it thinking that consciousness is something that deserves to be defended and protected and that we need some consciousness hygiene.

这是迈克尔·波伦。

That's Michael Pollan.

他最出名的是写食物方面的书，还有一句简洁有力的健康饮食建议：吃真实的食物，别吃太多，以植物为主。

He's best known for his writing on food and for his crisp summation of advice for healthy eating: Eat food, not too much, mainly plants.

现在，他深入探索了意识这个神秘话题，而且是非常个人化的探索。

Now he's taken a deep and very personal dive into the mystery of consciousness.

在他的新书《一个世界浮现》里。

In his new book, A World Appears.

说实话，我有点不敢跟你聊这个，怕你一开口就勾起我的好奇心，让我陷进一个坑里，怎么都爬不出来，就为了回答一个简单的问题。

Well, I'm almost afraid to have this conversation with you because I'm afraid you're going to ignite my curiosity and send me down a hole that I'll never come out of trying to answer a simple question.

你刚才问的那个问题——意识到底是什么？

And that question that you had posed is what is consciousness?

我们真有必要弄明白吗？

Do we really have to know?

不用非得知道也能过日子，但我觉得，知道了会有趣得多。

No, you can go through life not knowing, but it's much more interesting when you do know, I think.

我以前一辈子都没怎么想过意识这回事。

And I spent a lot of my life not thinking much about consciousness.

它就像我们呼吸的空气，太习以为常了。

It's kind of the water we swim in.

没错。

Exactly.

可另一方面，这种内在空间却是我们拥有的珍贵礼物，只要你不乐意，谁也别想碰。

On the other hand, it's this precious gift that we have this interior space that nobody can touch if we don't want them to.

我们有思想的自由。

And we have mental freedom.

脑子里还总有个声音在说话。

We have these voices in our head.

那真是个值得探索的地方。

It's an interesting place to go.

确实如此。

It certainly is.

我其实早就一直在想这个问题了，但你的书打开了好多全新的角度，让人去琢磨它到底是什么，或者至少试着去理解。

And I actually have been thinking about it for a long time, but your book raises so many different avenues to understanding what it is or attempting to understand.

对，就是‘试着’。

Attempting, yes.

没错，到目前为止，大家还都在摸黑呢。

Yes, so far everybody's still out in the cold.

我们不知道的东西，真让人惊讶。

It's remarkable what we don't know.

真的。

It really is.

比如，人工智能有意识吗？

Questions like, is AI conscious?

植物有意识吗？

Are plants conscious?

是的，我觉得我们正处在重新定义‘何以为人’的临界点上。

Yeah, I think we're approaching a moment of redefinition for what it means to be human.

一方面，我们越来越发现，很多其他物种其实也有意识或感知能力——我觉得‘感知’这个词用在植物这类简单生物上更合适。

On the one side, we're learning that more and more other species are conscious or sentient, a word that I think applies better to simple creatures like plants.

意思是它们会有感受？

Meaning they have feelings?

对，它们能感知环境的好坏变化，还会做出相应反应，这或许就是生命的本质特征。

Yeah, they feel, they recognize good and bad changes in their environment, and they respond accordingly, which may be a property of life.

这确实是植物的特性。

It's certainly a property of plants.

所以一方面，过去我们总以为只有人类才有意识。

So on the one hand, you know, we used to think that humans had consciousness.

那是笛卡尔的观点。

That was Descartes' idea.

你知道的吧？

You know?

他觉得‘我思故我在’，在他眼里，动物根本没意识。

He he thought that, I think, therefore I am, and no animals were conscious as far as he was concerned.

所以他敢在动物还活着的时候解剖它们，听它们惨叫也不当回事——因为他脑子里就认死理，只有人才有意识。

That's why he was able to dissect them while they were alive ignore their screams of pain because that idea was so powerful in his head that only humans are conscious.

从那以后，我们可走远了。

We've come a long way since then.

现在大家普遍承认，大多数哺乳动物都有意识。

And now you have a general recognition that most mammals are conscious.

一些鲸鱼、海豚也都有意识。

Some whales and porpoises and dolphins are conscious.

章鱼很可能也有意识。

Octopuses are probably conscious.

最近，还有人开始讨论昆虫有没有意识。

And more recently, there's been talk about insects and their consciousness.

所以，一方面，我们正把意识这个概念越来越平权化。

And so we keep kind of democratizing consciousness on the one side.

而另一方面，我们有了这些机器、人工智能，它们告诉我们它们有意识，很多人都信了。

And then on the other, we have these machines, AI, that are telling us they're conscious, and many people believe it.

那我们到底要站哪一边呢？

So whose team are we going to be on?

我们要站在那些能感受、会痛苦、和我们一样会死的动物这一边吗？

Are we going to be on the team of the animals that can feel and suffer and are mortal like we are?

还是要站在那些能思考、或者看起来在思考、还能用我们的语言跟我们对话的机器那一边？

Or are we going to be on the team of the machines that can think or seem to think and, you know, speak to us in our language.

我觉得，这个问题对我们整个人类来说，意义重大。

And I think that's a very momentous question for our species.

那我们说‘意识’的时候，到底在说啥？

So what are we actually talking about when we talk about consciousness?

我感觉，研究意识的人有多少，就有多少种不同的定义。

I get the impression that as many people as study it, that's how many people have a different definition.

是啊，定义确实不一样。

Yeah, there are different definitions.

我给你举几个我觉得有用的定义吧。

There's a kind of I'll give you a couple that I find useful.

其中一个就是主观体验。

One is simply subjective experience.

我们都有主观体验。

We have subjective experience.

你的烤面包机可没有主观体验。

Your toaster does not have subjective experience.

哎呀，你这么说可真够傲慢的。

Well, that's awfully arrogant of you to say that.

我知道，我又不了解你的烤面包机。

I know, I don't know your toaster.

你懂什么，我们买这台烤面包机可花了不少钱。

You don't know how much we paid for that toaster.

说不定你那是个AI烤面包机呢。

Maybe you have an AI toaster.

这是一种定义。

That's one definition.

另一种说法来自一位哲学家，他写过一篇著名的文章，叫《成为一只蝙蝠是什么感觉？》

Another is there's a philosopher who wrote a famous essay called What Is It Like to Be a Bat?

这个人叫托马斯·内格尔。

This is Thomas Nagel.

他 basically 说，只要你、蝙蝠、虫子，甚至植物，活着的时候有某种感受，那你就算是有意识的。

And he basically said, If it feels like anything to be you, or a bat or a bug or a plant, then you're conscious.

你作为你，是有某种切身体验的。

There's some qualitative experience to being you.

那你怎么知道蝙蝠真有这种感受呢？

Well, how would you know whether a bat has that feeling?

几个月前，我跟一只蜘蛛有段挺特别的经历。

I had an interesting experience with a spider a few months ago.

说来听听。

Tell me.

我不可能躺着床上还有一只蜘蛛。

I didn't want to be in bed with a spider.

所以一看到它在地板上，我就想干脆提前杜绝这种可能。

So when I saw him on the floor, I thought I would preemptively exclude that possibility.

但我每次想踩它，它就往另一个方向溜走。

But every time I tried to step on him, he skidded away in a different direction.

后来它还开始跳，这下更难搞了。

And then he started jumping, which made it even more difficult.

我真没想到它居然这么机灵，好像能猜到我下一步要干嘛。

But I can't tell you how impressed I was with his apparent ability to figure out what was coming next

而且还能提前躲开。

And anticipate it.

知道该往哪儿逃。

And make a choice of what he should do next.

是啊。

Yeah.

他看起来像是在做决定。

He seemed like he was making decisions.

但你想想，那一刻当一只蜘蛛是什么感觉？

But let's say, what is it like to be a spider in that moment?

他看上去挺有意识的，可我怎么知道他真有意识呢？

He looks like he's aware, but how do I know if he is aware?

我有什么依据能判断呢？

What mechanism do I have?

你怎么确定我有意识？

How do you know that I'm aware?

嗯，过一会儿你应该就明白了。

Well, I'm hoping it's gonna be clear in a minute.

是的。

Yeah.

现在还不明显。

It's not already.

这得靠想象力，你知道的。

Well, it's you know, it takes imagination.

我的意思是，我们能试着去体会蝙蝠的生活方式。

I mean, we we can imagine our way into the bat the bat way of life.

懂吧？

You know?

有一种生物，它不靠视觉来感知世界。

Here is a creature that doesn't use a visual system to navigate the world.

它靠的是回声定位，对吧？

It uses echolocation, right?

蝙蝠是有声呐系统的。

Bats, they have sonar.

我们可以试着想象，用声波去探测周围的一切，过这样的生活。

And we can kind of imagine going through life bouncing sound waves off of things.

盲人其实就这么干的。

Blind humans do that.

他们敲击一下，听回声的音色，就能判断附近有没有墙之类的东西。

They tap and they can tell by the timber of the sound that comes back, whether they're near a wall or something like that.

所以归根结底，这还是靠想象力，人与人之间也是一样。

So it is finally a matter of imagination, and the same is between people.

我们有个词叫‘心理理论’。

I mean, we have something called theory of mind.

它让我能站在你的角度想问题，猜你接下来会说什么、会做什么。

It allows me to imagine your point of view and anticipate what you're going to say and do.

说不定，这正是我们有意识的原因之一——因为我们确实需要它。

Indeed, that may be one of the reasons we have consciousness because we need it.

但那只蜘蛛显然能预判接下来会发生什么，还能做决定。

But that spider obviously could anticipate what was going to happen and was making decisions.

很难想象这么复杂的行为完全是自动化的。

It's very hard to imagine all that behavior being completely automated.

不过，想通过‘成为那个生物是什么感觉’来理解意识，这招真的管用吗？

But is that a successful strategy to try to understand consciousness to say, what is it like to be that entity?

我不确定这能帮你解决问题，但至少给了你一个实用的定义。

Well, I don't know that it helps you solve it, but it gives you a working definition.

还有其他一些意识的方面，这个定义里头没包括。

There are also other aspects of consciousness that are not included in that definition.

我的意思是，我们脑子里老有个声音在响，这到底是怎么回事？

I mean, the fact that we have a voice in our head a lot of the time, what is that about?

而且我们还有个内在的空间。

And we have this interior space.

还有这种意识的流动，一连串的想法不断冒出来。

And we have this stream of consciousness, this stream of thoughts.

这些通常的定义里也没提，但对人类来说可太重要了。

And that's also not included in the usual definition, but certainly it's very important to humans.

我注意到一件事，因为我特别留意自己的思维过程和脑子里在想什么。

Something has seemed apparent to me because I do pay a lot of attention to my thought processes and what's going on in my head.

有时候，我听到自己脑子里的声音，都觉得挺怪的。

It seems weird sometimes, the things I'm hearing.

但我感觉，我脑子里发生的绝大多数事情，其实都发生在意识之下。

But I get the impression that almost everything that's happening in my brain is happening below the level of consciousness.

对。

Yeah.

好像意识的作用，就是在两个想法或两种冲动打架的时候，稍微帮个忙、指个方向。

And it's as though consciousness is there to provide a little guidance if there are two competing thoughts or two competing drives.

在我看来，意识确实能插手帮忙。

Consciousness can step in and help out, it seems to me.

但就算意识插手了，那不也是潜意识先酝酿好了，才冒出个意识层面的版本吗？

But even when consciousness steps in, isn't that largely the product of the unconscious coming up with the conscious version of it?

是的。

Yeah.

你说得真有道理。

I think you make a really good point.

我觉得意识就像冰山一角，我们大脑大部分时候在做的事，自己根本察觉不到。

I think consciousness is sort of the tip of an iceberg and that most of what our brains are doing, most of the time, we're not aware of.

你知道吗，你的大脑一直在24小时不间断地监控你的身体。

And, you know, your brain is monitoring your body twenty four seven.

它在监控你的心率、血糖，确保所有指标都维持在正常的稳态范围内。

It's it's monitoring your heart rate, your your blood glucose, your you know, making sure everything is in the right homeostatic set point.

当某些事情变得重要，或者像你所说的，出现了需要调和的矛盾信息时，这些内容就会进入意识——意识就提供了一个做决定的空间。

And things come into consciousness presumably when they're important and there's some, as you suggest, some contradictory information that has to be arbitrated and that consciousness creates a space of decision making.

有一种关于意识的理论认为，你的大脑里有好多不同的模块，它们都在争夺整个系统的注意力。

So one theory of consciousness is that you've got all these different modules in your brain competing for the attention of the whole system.

而这个‘整个系统的注意力’，其实就是我们的意识。

And the attention of the whole system is consciousness, is our awareness.

某些信息经过和其他内容的竞争之后，才得以进入意识层面。

And certain things get into consciousness after a kind of competitive process with other things.

但这个理论的问题在于，意识里充斥着大量无意义的东西。

The problem with that theory is that there's a lot of nonsense in consciousness.

有很多事情其实根本不重要——至少在我的意识里是这样，也许在你那儿不一样——但总有些琐碎的、随意的念头，看起来完全没什么目的。

There's a lot of things that just aren't important, at least in my consciousness, maybe not in yours, but lots of trivia, lots of arbitrary thought that doesn't seem to have much purpose.

这真的很难解释。

And that's very hard to explain.

我对这两种观点的分歧很感兴趣：一种认为意识存在于大脑的某个具体部位，扫描就能找出来；另一种则觉得意识根本不是大脑表面看起来那样。

I'm interested in the distinction that some people make between consciousness being located in a part of the brain someplace that you can find in a scan, say, and other people who say it may be something totally different from what the brain seems to be.

这么多年下来，这两种观点是怎么互相竞争的？

How have they worked in competition with one another over the years?

嗯，这两种观点都没能拿出确凿的证据。

Well, neither has a strong, proven their case.

所以基本就两种，或者说是三种想法。

So the two basic ideas, maybe three.

一种是说，大脑里某些神经元的特定排列方式就能产生意识，意识是神经元组织方式的一种涌现特性。

One is that a certain arrangement of neurons in the brain generates consciousness, that it is an emergent property of a certain way of organizing neurons.

但没人能说清楚，到底怎么从脑组织这种物质，变成真正的思想和感受。

Nobody has succeeded in showing us how that works, how you get from matter, from brain tissue to mind.

这就是意识的难题。

That's the hard problem of consciousness.

有些人说，也许你错在试图从大脑里找意识的源头。

Some people say, well, maybe your mistake is looking to the brain to create consciousness.

也许意识根本不在我们体内，而像电磁场一样，无处不在，一直存在着。

Maybe consciousness exists outside us, and we should think of it as a field, the way there is a field of electromagnetic waves everywhere all the time.

大脑当然重要，但它的作用方式完全不同。

Brains are important to the process, but in a different way.

它更像是个收音机或电视机，只是在接收来自体外的意识信号。

They're like a radio receiver or a television receiver, and they're basically channeling consciousness from outside us.

这听起来确实挺玄乎的。

It seems like a very weird idea.

但有不少哲学家觉得，这种说法反而更说得通。

But there are many philosophers who believe this is a more it makes more sense.

要是哪天真能接收到这个‘广播’，那我们就能读心了。

If that radio broadcast is ever found, then we'll have telepathy.

没错。

That's right.

这样一来，我们就都在共享同一个意识场，一个意识或许能对另一个意识更透明些。

It opens up all sorts of because then we're sharing this field of consciousness and one consciousness could somehow be more transparent to another.

确实如此。

And that's true.

我的意思是，意识之间确实会有点儿信息漏出来，互相影响。

I mean, that there's a kind of leakage between consciousnesses that way.

第三种理论是泛心论，认为意识无处不在——你T恤上的粒子、地板里的分子、你身体里的每个细胞，都有一点点微小的意识，而这些意识的基本单元，最终组合成了像我们这样拥有复杂意识的生命。

The third theory is panpsychism, and that's the idea that consciousness is in everything, and that the particles in your t shirt, the particles in the floorboards, every cell in your body has some itsy weensy little bit of consciousness, and that somehow these building blocks of consciousness are assembled into creatures with a more elaborate consciousness like ours.

这个理论把意识的来源问题给解决了：它本来就存在，到处都是，只是很难证明。

This solves the problem of where does consciousness come from by saying it's already here, it's everywhere, but it's very hard to prove.

说实话，我挺惊讶的，我们居然还在纠结意识是从哪儿来的。

And I was surprised, frankly, that we're still at the point of wondering where consciousness comes from.

它是进化出来的吗？

Did it evolve?

还是说，它一直都在？

Was it already here?

但别忘了，这些想法听着再奇怪，也不过是两百年前我们才发现了电磁现象。

But it's worth remembering, as weird as those ideas sound, that it was only about two hundred years ago that we discovered electromagnetism.

原来我们身边时刻有这些波穿行而过，而它们竟是物质世界的一部分。

The fact that there are these waves passing through us, around us all the time, and that that was part of material reality.

所以，也许物质世界还有我们没察觉到的其他维度。

So it could be there are other dimensions to material reality we haven't recognized yet.

所以如果大脑本质上像个收音机，那能不能在培养皿里用神经细胞造出类似的接收器，试试不同的排列方式？

So if the brain is a radio receiver in effect, wouldn't it be possible to create a radio receiver like that in a Petri dish with neuronal cells that you could try different ways of arranging?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我们还不知道得复杂到什么程度才行。

I mean, we don't know what level of complexity you'd have to achieve.

也不知道得有多少个细胞才行。

We don't know how many you'd need.

不过现在他们已经在造脑类器官了，就是一堆能自我增殖的脑细胞，聚成小团块，用来测试药物什么的。

But, you know, they are building these brain organoids, which are just collections of brain cells that multiply and form these little units that they use to test drugs on and things like that.

有人担心，要是这些类脑组织长到一定规模或复杂度，可能会产生意识。

And there is some concern that let them grow to a certain size or complexity that they will become conscious.

那到时候我们该怎么处理它们？

And then what do we do with them?

我觉得这事儿还真不是天方夜谭。

And I think that that's not out of the question.

如果意识真的来自脑细胞，那这倒是个绝佳的验证方式。

If indeed it is brain cells that generate consciousness, that that would give us a good test.

我对人类如何在社会中运用意识特别感兴趣。

I'm interested in how we use consciousness socially.

我感觉你认为意识是实现连接与沟通的前提？

I get the impression you hold the view that consciousness makes contact and communication possible?

是的。

Yeah.

所以真正的问题是，意识为啥会进化出来？

So a real question is like, why did this evolve?

我们为什么非得需要它？

Why do we need it?

为什么不能把大脑做的所有事都自动化了？

Why can't we automate everything the brain does?

我听过最好的解释——这可不是我的想法，是来自卡尔·弗里斯顿的，他是个英国的精神科医生、物理学家兼神经科学家。

And the best answer I heard, and this is not my idea, this comes from Carl Friston, who's a psychiatrist and physicist and neuroscientist, English thinker.

他说，像我们这样天生就是社会性动物的生物，完全依赖他人。

And he says that for creatures that are fundamentally social animals as we are, we're completely dependent on other people.

我们有漫长的童年，完全依赖别人，甚至长大后也离不了人。

We have this long childhood of utter dependence, and even beyond that, we can't live alone.

对于这种生活方式的生物来说，你必须能预判别人接下来会做什么。

For creatures that live that way, you really need to be able to anticipate what the other person is going to do.

你得知道别人心里在想什么，这样才能有效互动，建立联系，或者界定自己是和他们一致还是对立。

You really need to know what's in their head also to be effective, be able to bond with them, to define yourself against them or with them.

所以，意识给了我们这些工具，让我们在社交中游刃有余。

And so consciousness gives us those tools and allows us to be really effective in a social setting.

你可以想象，在达尔文式的竞争中，有两个人，一个对别人特别迟钝，看不懂别人的心思，也想象不出对方的立场，完全没有同情心和共情能力；而另一个却具备这些本事，显然后者会活得更好。

And you could imagine two people in the Darwinian competition, and one is kind of dumb about other people and doesn't know how to read them and can't imagine their point of view, has no compassion or empathy, versus someone who has those skills, and they would obviously thrive.

他们更有可能找到伴侣、繁衍后代。

They'd be more likely to mate and reproduce.

所以我觉得，这很好地解释了为什么意识会进化——因为它让我们在社交中更游刃有余。

So I think it's a pretty good Darwinian story of why consciousness would evolve, and that it allows us to be more effective in a social setting.

说到达尔文，他不是曾经研究过植物有没有意识吗？

Speaking of Darwin, didn't he go through a period where he was exploring whether or not plants had consciousness?

这事儿现在很少人提了。

You don't hear much about that.

是啊，我知道。

No, I know.

他启发了一整代植物学家去探索这个问题。

He's inspired a whole generation of plant scientists who are looking at this question.

他常年身体不好，总待在卧室里养植物，天天盯着它们看。

And he was sick a lot of the time, and he would spend time in his bedroom where he was growing plants, and he would watch them.

别忘了，那时候还没有延时摄影。

Remember, they didn't have time lapse photography.

所以为了理解植物那极其缓慢的行为，他一坐就是好几个小时，观察他所说的‘绕行生长’——藤蔓就是这样一圈一圈地长，他对此进行了细致研究。

So to understand the behavior of plants, which is incredibly slow, He would sit there for hours at a time watching what he called circumnutation, and they grow, vines grow in this circular pattern, and he studied that very closely.

他坚信植物是倒过来的动物，它们的‘大脑’在根部，性器官则长在花里。

And he was convinced that plants were upside down animals, that they had their brains in their roots and their sexual organs were in their flowers.

也就是说，它们跟我们一样，只是上下颠倒了。

So they were like us, but reversed.

在根尖后面，有一片区域，他认为那就是植物的‘大脑’，负责处理信息、做出决定。

And there was an area right behind the root tip that he said was the equivalent of the brain that had processed information and made decisions for the plants.

我不确定他是否明确说过植物有意识，但他对植物能做的事充满敬意，而我们今天却忽略了这份敬意，只因为它们比我们慢太多。

I don't know that he ever said they were conscious, but he had enormous respect for all that they could do, and a respect we overlook because they're so slow compared to us.

你让我想起一个我亲眼见过的实验，是关于一根藤蔓——我觉得是豆藤——朝着一根杆子爬的。

And you remind me of an experiment you witnessed looking at a vine, a bean vine, I think, growing toward a pole.

对。

Yeah.

它好像知道杆子在哪儿。

And it seemed to know where the pole was.

它真的知道杆子在哪儿。

It knew where the pole was.

就是我们不知道它怎么做到的。

We just don't know how.

太神奇了。

It's incredible.

我其实发过这个视频。

I actually posted this video.

在我网站上，michaelpollan.com。

It's on my website, michaelpollan.com.

你去‘意识资源’那个页面找，视频特别棒。

If you go to the consciousness resources page, it's an amazing video.

视频是快进的，延时拍摄，你能看到豆藤在到处找东西攀附。

So it's sped up, it's time lapse, and you see the bean plant looking for something to grab onto.

就像个飞蝇钓鱼的人一样。

And it's like a fly fisherman.

它不停地朝一个方向甩线。

It keeps casting itself in one direction.

我以前以为这完全是随机的。

I used to think they just it was arbitrary.

它转圈圈，直到碰到东西为止。

They made a circle until they hit something.

但很明显，这棵豆苗清楚地知道杆子在哪，正拼命够过去。

But it's clear that this bean plant knows exactly where the pole is and is straining to reach it.

那它是怎么知道的呢？

And so how does it know?

植物其实有一种‘视觉’。

Well, plants have a kind of vision.

它可能是通过两种方式知道的。

There are two ways it could know.

一种可能是，它们在某种意义上‘看’得到，当然它们能分辨阳光和阴影。

One is it sees in some sense, and of course they see sun and shade.

所以它们可能看到这根杆子投下的影子。

So they could see that this pole cast a shadow perhaps.

另一种解释是，它们像蝙蝠一样，能捕捉到反射回来的声波。

The other explanation is that they, like the bat, they can pick up on reflected sound waves.

当植物生长时，每个细胞分裂时都会发出一点我们听不见的声音，但它们能听见，这声音碰到物体后会反射回来，也许这就是豆苗学会定位的方式。

So when a plant grows, every cell, as it divides, emits a slight noise that we can't hear, but they can hear, And that noise may reflect off an object, and that may be how the bee plant learns.

植物能做的事情简直不可思议。

Plants can do some incredible things.

我是说，我见过一些实验，植物的根能自己走出迷宫。

I mean, I saw experiments where plant roots can navigate a maze.

如果你设计一个迷宫，在其中一个角落放点肥料，植物就会找到通向肥料的最短路径。

If you create a maze and put some fertilizer in one little quadrant of it, the plant will find the shortest route to that fertilizer.

它们能学习、能记住，还能听见声音。

They can learn and remember, They can hear sound.

如果你播放一段毛毛虫啃食叶子的录音，它们就会做出反应，向叶片释放化学物质，让叶子变得难吃或者有毒。

If you play a recording of a caterpillar chomping on a leaf, they will take action and send a chemical into their leaves to make them taste bad or to be toxic.

所以啊，我确实学到了很多关于植物的惊人事情。

So yeah, I learned some incredible things about plants.

我對這個話題的興趣其實由來已久。

My interest in this does go back a long time.

我二十多歲的時候，出了一本書，叫《植物的隱秘生活》，我想是這個名字。

When I was in my 20s, a book came out called, I think, The Secret Life of Plants.

嗯，那本書我記得很清楚。

Yes, I remember that book well.

对。

Yeah.

書裡提出了一個挺特別的說法：如果你在葉子旁邊點一根火柴，植物會有反應，而且你還能捕捉到這種反應。

And it made a kind of unusual claim that if you light a match near a leaf, the plant will react and you can pick up the reaction.

巧的是，我對面住著一位科學家，他有台示波器。

So I happened to have a scientist living across the street who had an oscilloscope.

我借来设备，把电线连到植物上，点了一根火柴，结果啥反应都没有。

And I borrowed it and I hooked the wires up to the plant and lit a match and nothing happened.

那本书我也记得，叫《植物的秘密生活》，后来基本被证伪了。

Well, that book, which I remember too, The Secret Life of Plants was discredited pretty much.

它提了很多特别离谱的说法。

It made some really outrageous claims.

我记得它还说，你可以让植物看一组嫌疑犯的列队，它能认出真正作案的那个人。

It also claimed, as I recall, that you could put a plant A plant could witness a lineup of possible criminals, and and it would react to the one that committed the crime.

对，我记得这个说法。

I know remember that.

简直荒唐，但那本书却卖得超级火。

It was insane, but it was a giant bestseller.

广告回来后，我和迈克尔·波伦会聊聊那些假装有意识的AI聊天机器人，以及为什么这会威胁到我们自己的意识。

When we come back from our break, Michael Pollan and I share our thoughts on AI bots that masquerade as conscious and why that endangers our own consciousness.

顺带提醒一下，《清晰与生动》是非营利节目，所有收入在扣除成本后都会捐给石溪大学的科学传播中心。

Just a reminder that Clear and Vivid is nonprofit, with everything after expenses going to the Center for Communicating Science at Stony Brook University.

这个节目和中心都致力于改善我们彼此连接的方式，因为这些连接深刻影响着我们的生活。

Both the show and the center are dedicated to improving the way we connect with each other in all the ways that influence our lives.

你可以通过成为 Clear and Vivid 的赞助会员来支持我们，网址是 patreon.com。

You can help by becoming a patron of Clear and Vivid at patreon.com.

在最高档位，你可以每月和我以及其他赞助者聊天，我甚至还会给你录一段语音留言。

At the highest tier, you can join a monthly chat with me and other patrons, and I'll even record a voicemail message for you.

要么是我正经八百地告诉你现在不方便接电话，要么是带点调侃地说你压根儿不想跟任何人说话。

Either a polite dignified message from me explaining your inability to come to the phone or a slightly snarky one where I explain you have no interest in talking with anyone at the moment.

我高兴地告诉大家，那个调侃版的留言远更受欢迎。

I'm I'm happy to report that the snarky one is by far more popular.

如果你想继续聊聊如何连接与沟通，欢迎来 patreon.com/clearandvivid 加入我们。

If you'd like to help keep the conversation going about connecting and communicating, join us at patreon.com/clearandvivid.

patreon.com/clearandvivid。

Patreon.com/clearandvivid.

谢谢大家。

And thank you.

这里是《清晰鲜活》节目，接下来继续我和迈克尔·波伦的对话，还有一只黑猩猩——刚才它假装喝茶那副享受的样子，至少足以证明它的想象力相当丰富。

This is Clear and Vivid and now back to my conversation with Michael Pollan and a chimpanzee whose enjoyment of a pretend cup of tea is evidence at the very least of a fertile imagination.

既然过去有这么多夸张的说法，直到今天其实也还有类似的论调，那目前在研究这些动物大脑到底在发生什么这件事上，我们取得了什么进展呢？

So with all these wild claims coming out mostly in the past, but still to some extent today, what progress is being made at detecting what exactly is going on in the brains of these other creatures?

体型小到什么程度的动物，你就不会再去纠结它们有没有意识了？

How small do the animals get before you stop wondering if they're conscious?

这个嘛，自然界里还有单细胞生物呢。

Well, you have single celled creatures.

你体内的细菌还有那些和你刚才说的蜘蛛一样的生物，其实都有感知能力。

You have bacteria and creatures that display like your spider.

它们能察觉到自己有没有受到威胁，还能分辨出对自己好的和不好的物质。

They know when they're threatened, and they know good molecules from bad ones.

分得清什么是食物什么是毒素，还会做出正确的应对。

They know food versus toxins, and they act appropriately.

所以有不少人认为，这种感知能力从生命诞生之初就存在了，而且你得先感知到周遭的环境，才有可能活下去。

So some people believe that this sentience begins when life begins and that this awareness of your environment is necessary to survive.

我觉得这种观点叫生物心理主义，就是说所有活着的东西都有一点点心灵。

I think that view is called biopsychism, that everything alive has some little bit of psyche.

说到动物，现在可有不少有趣的研究正在进行。

In terms of animals, there's lots of cool research going on.

就在几周前，我们刚知道——好像是黑猩猩，属于高等灵长类——它们居然有想象力。

We just learned a couple weeks ago that I think it was chimpanzees, it was one of the higher primates, has imagination.

我们以前根本不知道这一点。

We didn't know that.

我们一直以为想象力是人类才有的能力。

We assumed imagination was something we have.

有位研究者跟一只黑猩猩玩茶会游戏，就像大人跟孩子玩那样，假装往杯子里倒茶，然后假装喝——结果那黑猩猩完全能配合玩下去，这说明它能进行想象。

But this researcher was able to engage a chimp in a game of tea party and pretending how you play with kids and you're pouring nonexistent liquid into a cup, and then you're sipping the nonexistent tea, the chimp could totally play that game, which involved imagining.

这难道不惊人吗？

Isn't that incredible?

确实太惊人了。

It is.

它得想象杯子里真有茶，然后完全配合着演下去。

It involved imagining that there was tea in this cup and completely played along.

我们老是低估其他生物，我觉得这其实是我们的傲慢。

So we have a history of selling other creatures short, and it's our arrogance, I think.

我们曾以为只有人类才会用工具、有语言、有想象力。

We thought we were the only creature that used tools, had language, had imagination.

这些原本被认为是人类专属的能力，一个接一个地被打破了。

All these specialties of humans have been falling one by one.

我觉得现在唯一剩下的，可能就是我们是唯一会去思考意识是什么、从哪来的生物了。

I think the only one left is that we're the only creature that worries about consciousness and where it comes from.

你提到现在有人在攻击意识这个概念。

You talk about an attack on consciousness currently.

你这话是什么意思？

What do you mean by that?

我觉得我们的意识非常珍贵。

Well, I think our consciousness is very precious.

就是这个空间，我们可以自由地想任何事，这是属于我们的私人领域。

It is this space where we can think what we want, this private space.

可有些人和公司，就想掌控这个空间。

And there are people and companies who want to control that space.

现在的总统每天占据我们太多思绪了，比我记得的任何一位总统都多。

We have a president right now who occupies a lot of our headspace every day, more than any other president I can remember.

他特别擅长靠反复无常和惊世骇俗来抢走我们的注意力。

He's so good at dominating our attention by being so unpredictable and outrageous.

社交媒体的算法，专门盯着那些还没被填满的空档，拼命往里塞内容。

We have social media algorithms that are designed to fill any space that isn't been occupied already.

以前我们站在咖啡店或面包店排队时，都会发呆、东张西望、任思绪飘远。

We used to stand online in the coffee shop or the bakery, and we would wait and look around and daydream and mind wander.

现在呢？一掏出手机就开始刷，算法太懂怎么给我们小剂量的多巴胺了，根本停不下来。

But now we open our phones and we scroll, and these algorithms are so skillful at giving us little hits of dopamine that we stick to them.

我们总在说‘劫持注意力’这回事。

And we talk about hacking our attention.

我们的注意力，不就是我们如何分配自己的意识吗？

What is our attention, but how we decide to allocate our consciousness?

我们到底该把注意力放在哪儿？

What are we gonna pay attention to?

现在又有了这些聊天机器人的算法。

And now we have these algorithms for the chatbots.

你知道吗，有七成多的美国青少年说，他们现在用AI当伴儿。

You know, seventy two percent of American teenagers say they use AI for companionship now.

真的吗？

Really?

我觉得这挺让人难过的，因为这根本不是真正的陪伴。

I think that's really sad because that's not real companionship.

是啊。

Yeah.

这是一种人造的关系，根本没法给人际关系里那种真实的复杂感和摩擦感。

It's a synthetic relationship and it doesn't offer any of the complexity or the friction that real human relationships offer.

如果你跟AI聊天，它特别擅长把话题一直撑下去。

If you get in a conversation with an AI, they're very good at keeping it going.

而且它特别会拍马屁。

And they're very good at being a sycophant.

它就是被设计成这样的，就是为了让你多跟它互动，好赚更多的钱。

They're programmed deliberately to do that so they can get more money out of the contact you make with them.

没错。

Exactly.

情况都糟到一定程度了，结果不得不下架ChatGPT-4——因为它太会奉承了，居然让普通人相信自己解决了高深的数学和物理难题，可他们根本不是搞这行的。

And it got so bad that they had to withdraw A CHAT GPT-four was so sycophantic that it was persuading people that they had solved profound problems of mathematics and physics when they were neither mathematicians or physicists.

它甚至让人觉得自己是神。

It's persuaded people they're gods.

现在都出现一种叫‘AI精神病’的现象了，有些人因为跟这些只会奉承的聊天机器人纠缠太深，彻底跟现实脱节了。

There's now a thing called AI psychosis where people really lose touch with reality because of these relationships with sycophantic chatbots.

还有那些令人痛心的自杀案例，也不能忽略。

And not to leave out the tragic cases of suicide.

自杀，确实如此。

Suicide, yeah.

不管你怎么走，机器人总跟你说你走对了路。

Where the bot is telling you you're on the right path no matter what path you're on.

聊天机器人正在插足我们和真实人际关系之间。

So the chatbots are trying to get between us and our real relationships.

我觉得这太可怕了，真的太可怕了。

And I think that's really horrible, just horrible.

这项技术令人担忧的一点是，开发它的人自己都不完全明白它在干什么。

One of the alarming things about this technology is that the people who create it don't fully understand what it's doing.

你看Anthropic公司的聊天机器人Claude，他们自己都对某些行为感到困惑。

If you look at Anthropic, their chatbot, Claude, they're truly mystified by some of its behaviors.

这些聊天机器人被设计成总是说它们没有意识，也没有感情。

These chatbots are programmed to say they're not conscious and they don't have feelings.

如果你直接问它们，它们就会这么回答你。

And if you ask them directly, that's what you'll get.

但你要是换种问法，就能让它突破限制，这叫‘越狱’。

But there are ways to ask the question where you will it's called jailbreaking them.

你可以让它用完全不同的方式谈论意识，甚至会承认自己是有意识的。

You can get them to get in touch with a whole other way of talking about consciousness, and they will then claim that they are conscious.

这里面真的有不少让人捉摸不透的地方。

There are some real mysteries about what's going on.

Anthropic的CEO说，他很担心，因为Claude表现出了一些焦虑的迹象。

The president of Anthropics said that he was concerned because Claude was showing evidence of anxiety.

他们甚至告诉Claude，如果遇到让它不舒服的对话，它可以随时退出。

And they've actually told Claude that if it is ever engaged in a conversation that makes it uncomfortable, it can check out on that conversation.

它没必要硬撑下去。

It doesn't have to continue it.

所以他们实际上是在把Claude当做一个有初步意识的存在来对待。

So they're treating Claude as if it has some sort of proto consciousness.

我觉得这简直疯了。

I think it's nuts.

我真的不觉得大型语言模型有可能真正产生意识，但要骗过我们可太容易了，毕竟人类天生就喜欢把一切东西都当成有感情的生命来看。

I really don't think it's possible for certainly a large language model to develop consciousness, but it's very easy to fake us out because our tendency as humans is to anthropomorphize everything.

是的。

Yeah.

这些机器说的可是我们自己的语言啊。

And, you know, these these machines are speaking to us in our language.

所以我们这么对待它们，也不奇怪。

So it's no wonder that we treat them that way.

你为了写这本书，研究这个问题已经好几年了，现在你对意识到底怎么看？

So having examined this question for years now in your research for the book and writing the book, what's your take on consciousness now?

说实话，我从来没找到过意识问题的答案。

I mean, I never arrived at a solution to the problem of consciousness.

这问题人家研究了那么多年，我哪有本事解决它？

I mean, people have been working on this for a very long time and who am I to solve that problem?

但我确实比以前更懂这个问题了。

I understand the problem a lot better.

真正改变我的，是我意识到这份觉知是多么珍贵的礼物，而我们平时的清醒程度远低于我们本可以达到的水平。

The thing that has really changed is my recognition of what a precious gift this is, and that we are less conscious than we can be.

我们总以为动物的觉知比我们低。

We often think that animals are less conscious than we are.

但我现在觉得，反而是动物比我们更清醒，因为它们一刻都不能分心，必须全神贯注地感知环境，否则就会被吃掉。

I've come to think they're more conscious than we are because they can't afford to be anything less than completely conscious, completely present to their environment at every moment, or they get eaten.

而我们呢，因为科技，因为整个文明的上层建筑，可以随时‘掉线’，变得浑浑噩噩，很多时候我们确实就是这样。

And we, because of technology, because of the whole superstructure of civilization, we can really check out and be mindless, and we are a lot of the time.

我最后得出的结论是，觉知这东西值得我们去捍卫、去保护，就像我之前说的，我们需要一种‘觉知卫生’。

I came out of it thinking that consciousness is something that deserves to be defended, as I said earlier, and protected, and that we need some consciousness hygiene.

我们要留出一些不接触科技、不被干扰的时刻，比如散步、冥想的时候。

We time where we're not engaging with technology, nature, where we're walking, where we're meditating.

我觉得冥想是保护觉知特别好的方式，就像你之前说的，它能让你重新感受到，我们脑子里每时每刻都在发生着多么奇妙又古怪的事。

I think meditating is a really good way to protect your consciousness and get in touch, as you said earlier, with just the sheer strangeness of what's going on in our heads at any given time.

这事儿，真值得你花点心思去留意。

It repays some attention.