成绩重要吗？

所以如果你特别高或者特别矮，其实你只是选择输入进去的数字而已。

So like if you're really tall or really short, I mean, way you're just choosing the numbers that you put into it.

所以就像，你觉得它难，然后你给它你认为它应得的数字。

So it's like, you think that it's hard and you know, you give it the numbers you think it deserves.

另外，我觉得对于任何没用过Darth Grader的人来说，真正使用Darth Grader的方法，我觉得就是多跑几次，用不同的方式，比如先用路线难度试，再用抱石难度试，然后试着把路线拆成不同的部分。

Also, I mean, I think for anybody listening who's never used Darth Grader, I mean, the real way to use Darth Grader, I think, is to just run it a bunch of different ways where you try it with route grades, then you try it with bouldering grades, then you try it, like, breaking up the route into different pieces.

基本上，你就是尝试对你正在爬的路线给出各种不同的看法。

Basically, you just try a bunch of different opinions of the route that you're working on.

你知道，我经常同时开三个标签页，然后我就想，哦，我用不同的方式拆解它。

You know, I often will have like three tabs going where I'm sort of like, oh, I break it down different ways.

然后如果你反复得到相同的难度，你就会想，好吧，那肯定就是这个了。

And then if you consistently get the same grade, then you're like, okay, well, it's it's gotta be that.

但如果你得到各种不同的结果，那你就会想，我得再好好想想。

But if you're getting like all kinds of different things, then you're like, I gotta think about it more.

这就是我对Darth Grader的看法，给所有使用Darth Grader的人。

That's that's my Darth Grader take for anybody who uses Darth Grader.

我觉得这其实是一个非常实用的工具。

I think it's actually an incredibly useful tool.

这是一种很有帮助的思考方式，能让你明白自己爬得有多难。

It's like a very helpful way to think about, yeah, how hard you're coming.

乔纳森，它有没有减轻你给线路定级的压力？

Jonathan, has it taken some, like, the pressure of putting a grade on something?

特别是那些高难度的线路，它是不是能帮你分担一些压力？

Like, especially, like, some like, high end, is it, like, taking some of the pressure off of off of it?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得是这样。

I would say so.

有一点。

A little bit.

就像我们刚才聊到的，这里面还是有主观性的。

I mean, like we've all been saying in this conversation, there's still subjectivity.

我的意思是，你还是在输入，你知道的。

I mean, you're still inputting, you know.

我觉得在路线攀岩中经常发生的一件事是，抱石，就是那些可以单独作为抱石评级的独立部分，真的被高估了。

I think something that happens really often in route climbing is that bouldering, like the the separate sections that can be graded as boulders are really over graded.

我觉得这种情况经常发生。

I think that happens all the time.

尤其是当抱石者，讽刺的是，来爬高难度路线的时候。

Especially when you have boulders ironically come and climb hard roots.

但这正是整个对话的核心，就是主观性。

That gets to the very heart of the whole conversation though is the subjectivity.

这是因为他们在绳上抱石时感觉很难。

It's because it feels hard when they're bouldering it on a rope.

所以他们就会说，哦，感觉像V11。

And so they're like, oh, it feels like a v 11.

然后你会说，好吧，如果这在地上，对你来说可能就是个V7之类的。

And you're like, well, If this is on the ground, it'd be like a v seven for you or something.

但那是因为你挂在上面。

But it's because you're Right.

而且你悬在那儿。

And you're hanging there.

要从绳子上下来再开始那段，挺别扭的。

It's like awkward to get off the rope and to start the section and everything.

没错。

Exactly.

对。

Yeah.

就是说啊，确实。

Mean, that's like yeah.

每条线路上的抱石段，或者说每条线路上的抱石难点，其实都比人们想的要容易一些。

Every every root boulder is like or every boulder problem on a root is always like easier than people think it is kind of.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得像你或我这样的人对此有很好的看法，因为我们对自己在训练板上攀爬的难度有很好的理解。

And I think someone like you or I have a good perspective on that because like we have a pretty good understanding of how hard we boulder on the boards and stuff.

所以，你知道，如果你把我放在一条路线上，然后有人试图告诉我那是V12或什么的。

So then, you know, if you'd put me on a route and you're like and somebody's trying to tell me that it's v 12 or whatever.

我会说，哥们，训练板上的V12对我来说要花好几天。

I'm like, dude, v 12 on the board takes me like days.

就像，我爬完14a到这里之后，我不可能做到那个。

Like I can't I couldn't do that after climbing 14 a to get here or whatever.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

所以，我觉得有帮助的是，像你和我这样的人，抱石毫无疑问是我们的弱点。

So it's like, I think it helps to have kind of like people like you and I that bouldering is like unquestionably our weakness.

我们能够比较自己在训练板上的表现，并将其应用到路线上。

Like kind of able to compare our performance on the boards and take that to roots.

但这一切真的挺搞笑的。

But it is all really funny.

对吧？

Right?

因为其实我已经差不多十年没在户外真正攀岩过了。

Because like I haven't actually gone bouldering on boulders outside for like ten years.

我只知道自己在训练板上的表现。

Like, I only know my performance bouldering by how I perform on the boards.

而且我就是用这些数据来估算，然后输入到Darth Grader里的。

And that's all that I'm using to calculate the numbers of like things that I'm putting into Darth Grader.

Juliet，我有个问题想问你。

Juliet, I have a question for you.

比如，当有客户来找你的时候，我觉得肯定经常有人跟你说，嘿。

Like, when you have a client come to you, I feel like someone must come to you often and be like, hey.

我想爬5.14，或者攀岩V10。

I want to climb 514 or Boulder V 10.

当有人带着这样的目标来找你时，你会从哪里开始？

Where do you start when some someone comes to you with that goal?

比如，你怎么去拆解它？

Like, how do you break it down?

你怎么说，比如，嗯，那是个很棒的目标，但你从哪里开始呢？

How do you, like, say, like, well, that that's a great goal, but, like, where do you begin?

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

好问题。

Good question.

说到等级目标，重要的是要以一种方式去构建它，使得达到那个目标的过程对攀岩者来说，在他们的攀岩生涯中是有用的。

When it comes to grade goals, it's important to frame it in a way that the process to get to that goal is useful to the climber just in terms of their climbing career.

而且这是一种可持续的方法，因为你可以有同样的目标，比如爬V10或5.14，你可以用两种不同的方式去实现它，一种会帮助攀岩者长期发展，另一种也许能让他们达到目标，但之后他们只是有了那个等级而已。

And it's a sustainable approach because you can have the same goal of climbing V10 or five fourteen and you can approach it two different ways and one is gonna help the climber actually develop over the long term and the other will maybe get them there, but then they'll just have the the grade under their belt.

所以实际上是在问，能爬那个难度的人，他们拥有哪些经验、技能和力量，而你现在可能还不具备这些，然后从这个角度倒推回去，而不是说，好，我们去找一条完美的V10或者完美的5.14，然后让你去死磕它，最后把它拿下。

So it's really asking what experience, skills and strength that the version of them that climbs that grade has that maybe they don't have now and working backwards from that rather than, okay, like let's find the perfect v 10 or the perfect five fourteen and just have you go siege it and eventually send it.

对。

Yeah.

但那具体是什么样子的呢？

But what does that look like?

我的意思是，我们确实会去看一个人实际是怎么爬的，他们的经验水平怎么样？

I mean, like, we do do, like, kind of, like, look at how somebody actually climbs, like, what their experience level is?

因为有些问题肯定就是技术上的差距，然后当然，有时候是力量上的，但有些确实就是技术问题。

Like like because some of it must come down to just being, there are actually gaps in technique and then I mean, so obviously, it's sometimes in strength, but, like, some of it really must come down to that.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

开始和客户合作时，我会做一个比较全面的评估。

I'll do a pretty holistic assessment when I begin working with the client.

我们会做一些力量评估、手指评估，然后我也会看看他们的攀爬情况。

We'll do some strength assessments, finger assessments, and then I'll get an eye on their climbing.

另外，看看他们去户外尝试攀爬时用的战术也很重要。

And then it's also important just to look at what their tactics are when they go outside to to go try a climb.

所以每个人会有不同的短板，我们会针对这些进行改进，但很多时候，关键还是在于他们实际去尝试攀爬时发生了什么。

So each individual will have different gaps that we'll address and work on, but it really comes down to just a lot of the times what's actually happening when they're getting out there to try the climb.

我曾经和一个客户一起出去，他在好几个季节里多次尝试过一条线路。

I I went out with a client who had tried a climb multiple times over multiple seasons.

但基本上连起步都做不到，或者只能完成这条线路的前几个动作。

And hadn't really even been able to get off the ground or do like the first couple moves of this climb.

我们只是稍微配合了一下，我就说，对，把垫子往后拉一点。

We just kind of worked together and I was like, oh yeah, Just pull the pad back a little bit.

那是一个需要深蹲起步的线路。

It was like a really, like, squat start.

把垫子往后挪一点，从起点开始，你就能这样把脚别过去，然后，你知道，她那次就把整条抱石线都爬完了。

Just pull the pad back a little bit from the start and you'll you'd be able to kind of flag your foot in this way and then, you know, she was able to do the whole boulder that session.

所以

So

这就是为什么你做这种教练工作能赚大钱。

That's why you get paid the big bucks when you do that kind of coaching.

你就像，你下次就完成你的项目了。

You're like, you send your project next go.

你就像，你有没有试过带把铲子去项目，这样你脚底下就有更多空间了？

You're like, have you tried bringing a shovel to the project so you just have a little more space for your feet on the bottom?

对。

Yeah.

试着把它挖出来。

Try digging it out.

对。

Yeah.

如果差距特别大，比如有人能爬13a，想爬14a，那我觉得肯定得练好几年力量，而且得有个系统的训练计划。

If there's an enormous gap, like if someone's climbing 13 a and they wanna climb 14 a, then I would say like, you know, years of strength training are involved and like there's a program.

但说实话，大多数时候，如果有人想突破瓶颈，我跟你讲，我观察别人爬难线路的时候，真的觉得很多问题其实靠策略就能解决。

But man, more often than not, if somebody's trying to break through, I swear, like when I witness people climbing and trying hard stuff, I swear a lot of it could be addressed with just like strategy.

比如你一天试多少次，什么时候试，还有你下来的时候是怎么想的，为什么下来。

Like how many times are you trying in a day and like when are you trying and like what, you know, how where why do you come down?

为什么不再试一次？

Why didn't you try that again?

就是诸如此类的问题。

Why you know, stuff like that.

有意思的是，这些小小的细节能帮你走多远。

It's just like so it's so interesting how far those little subtleties can get you.

我挺好奇的，Juliet，你之前提到在训练板上爬，还有你做过很多这方面的内容。

I'm gonna curious, Juliet, you mentioned earlier climbing on boards and like that you've done a lot of, you know, content around.

基本上，我觉得如果你是矮个子攀岩者，那可能是你看到难度等级差异最大的地方，我猜是这样。

Basically, it's like I feel like if you're a short climber, that's probably where you see the biggest discrepancy in grades, I assume.

你能稍微聊聊这个吗？

I mean, can you talk about that a little bit?

因为我觉得大多数人可能都有一些这方面的经验。

Because I feel like that's something that most people probably have some experience with.

或者，你知道，任何在健身房攀岩的人，那里真的能看到巨大的差异。

Or like, you know, anybody listening to climbs in gyms, that's like where you really see a huge difference.

比如，在月球板上，基准四号线，如果你能把脚保持在底部，那其实挺容易的。

With, you know, benchmark fours on the moon board, it's, if you can keep your feet on the bottom, it's, like, pretty easy.

但如果做不到，那就难到离谱。

And if you can't, it's, like, insanely hard.

你基本上就是在跳着抓点。

You're literally just jumping to edges.

所以我也说不好。

And so I don't know.

对。

Yeah.

我是说，聊聊这个吧。

I mean, talk about that.

比如，到了某个阶段，你什么时候会完全抛开那些网格，把整个东西当作一种训练工具？

Like, at a certain point, when do you just throw the grids totally out the window and just think of the whole thing as a training tool?

你就像，好吧，我在刺激手指，我在努力，谁在乎那些数字呢？

You're just kinda like, well, I'm stimulating my fingers and I'm trying hard and it's like, who cares about the numbers?

休息之后我们会带来更多内容。

We'll be back with more after the break.

你有没有用过咖啡因来撑过那些大强度的日子？

Do you ever use caffeine as one of the things to get you through big days?

我其实从来没有刻意去追求咖啡因，但你知道，我偶尔会在能量胶、果冻和那些运动产品里摄入一些，我完全不排斥。

I have never really intentionally sought out caffeine necessarily, but, you know, I occasionally have it in in gels and goos and random sports products, and I'm definitely not opposed to it.

我是说，我知道它有用。

I mean, I know it helps.

对。

Mhmm.

对。

Yeah.

LMNT出了个新口味，柠檬水冰茶。

LMNT's got a new flavor, lemonade iced tea.

里面含有红茶提取物。

It's got black tea extract.

好处是，这种咖啡因更像茶叶里的那种。

The benefit is that that caffeine is more like how it is in a tea plant.

它和茶氨酸、多酚结合在一起，所以感觉更平稳。

It's bundled with L theanine and polyphenol, so it creates a steadier feeling.

不像有些能量胶那样，给你那种猛烈的咖啡因冲击。

It's not just like that crazy caffeine hit that you sometimes get out of gels.

我其实一直在岩场喝LMNT的柠檬水冰茶，味道不错，而且……嗯。

I actually have been drinking the the LMNT lemonade iced tea at the crag and tastes good and I Mhmm.

基本上，当你努力攻克你的项目时，可以认为咖啡因肯定有帮助。

Basically, assume that caffeine must help when you're trying to send your project.

但是，我是说，运动科学中有很多证据表明，只要不过量，咖啡因确实有助于提升表现。

But, I mean, there is a lot of evidence in in sort of sports science that caffeine helps performance as long as you don't overdo it.

所以，在运动时摄入咖啡因真的没什么坏处，是的。

And so there's really no harm in in having caffeine Yeah.

你知道，在锻炼的时候。

You know, during exercise.

在drinklmnt.com/climbinggold购买任何产品，即可免费获得Element最受欢迎的口味组合的八份装样品包。

Get a free eight count sample pack of Element's most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase at drinklmnt.com/climbinggold.

网址是drink l m n t dot com slash climbing gold。

That's drink l m n t dot com slash climbing gold.

Alex，你这些年一直在用Lattice Training。

Alex, you've used Lattice Training through the years.

第一次是在自由独攀巡回赛上，你注意到了什么？

The first time being on the free solo tour, what did you notice?

我确实练出了我从未有过的最强手指力量。

I definitely wound up with the strongest fingers that I've ever had.

其实那是好几个月的训练，那也是我第一次真正那样训练。

I mean, it was many months of training, and it was the first time I'd ever really trained in that way.

比如，在做Lattice训练的时候，我有时候会想，哦，我从来没体验过这样的力量。

Like, while I was doing the Lattice Training, I had some moments where I was like, Oh, I've never experienced strength like this.

那感觉太棒了。

And it was amazing.

我当时就想，天哪，能抓住那么小的岩点真是太爽了。

I was like, God, love just being able to hold little holds.

你现在还在做吗？

Are you doing it now?

你又在做这个训练了？

You're doing it again?

对。

Yeah.

我最近刚开始重新练。

I just started doing it again.

所以理论上，从下周开始，我就要进入真正的训练了，这其实挺完美的，因为就我现在的生活状态来说，我准备好训练了，想好好练一阵子。

So in theory, starting, like, next week, I'm getting into, like, real training training again, which is actually perfect because, for where I am in life right now, it's like I'm ready to train, train for a bit.

即使我没有用真正的Lattice计划做专项训练，我还是会时不时地用Lattice应用，用得还挺多的。

Even when I haven't been using the actual Lattice program, like for specific training, I still use the Lattice app on and off quite a bit.

它真的是一个非常方便的攀岩专项训练资源。

It's just such a handy resource for climbing specific training.

所以不管你是不是在做一个完整的计划，它都是一个很棒的工具，基本上你想在攀岩里做的任何事情都能用得上。

So it's like whether you're doing a full on program or not, it's like either way, it's an incredible resource for basically anything you wanna do in climbing.

节目的听众可以免费试用一个月。

Listeners to the show can try it completely free for a month.

没有套路，也不用承诺什么。

No catch, no commitment.

只要去latticetraining.com/climbinggold就能开始。

Just go to latticetraining.com/climbinggold and get started.

所以Kodiak一直是Climbing Gold的长期支持者。

So Kodiak has been a longtime supporter of climbing gold.

如果你以前吃过Kodiak，那你肯定有自己常点的东西。

And if you had Kodiak before, you probably have a go to.

在我们家，肯定是冷冻华夫饼。

In our house, it's definitely the frozen waffles.

女儿们经常吃冷冻华夫饼，索尼也有点喜欢那种小巧克力蛋白杯，就是那种甜点杯，挺放纵的。

The girls eat frozen waffles all the time, and Sony kinda likes the, the little protein chocolate cup the dessert cup things that are kinda indulgent.

那些也不错。

Those are good too.

不过说真的，我们吃了很多冷冻华夫饼。

But no, we we eat a lot of frozen waffles.

Kodiak花了三十多年时间完善它的煎饼和华夫饼配方。

Kodiak has spent more than thirty years perfecting its flapjack and waffle recipes.

如今，几乎每个人都能找到适合自己的高蛋白冷冻华夫饼，从酪乳和香草能量华夫饼，到新款家常风味华夫饼，每份含16克蛋白质且无添加糖，甚至还有无麸质华夫饼。

And today, there's a protein packed frozen waffle for just about everyone, from buttermilk and vanilla power waffles to the new homestyle waffles with 16 grams of protein and no added sugar, even gluten free waffles.

用一顿高蛋白早餐让你的小野人们保持活力，为重要日子提供能量。

Keep your wild ones going with a protein packed breakfast that will keep them fueled for big days.

在主要杂货店的冷冻区可以找到Kodiak冷冻华夫饼，包括沃尔玛和全食超市。

Find Kodiak frozen waffles in the freezer aisle at major grocery stores, including Walmart and Whole Foods.

而且限时优惠，在部分Costco和山姆会员店可以买到40包装的，囤货更划算。

And for a limited time, you can stock up and save with a 40 pack available at select Costco and Sam Clubs warehouses.

40包装的。

A 40 pack.

那够孩子们吃一阵子了。

That'll keep the girls going for a minute.

不管你在哪里买，认准盒子上有熊标志的就是。

Wherever you shop, they're the ones with the bear on the box.

更多信息请访问kodiakcakes.com。

Learn more at kodiakcakes.com.

比如，到了某个阶段，你什么时候会完全不在乎成绩，只把它当作一种训练工具？

Like, at at a certain point, when do you just throw the grades totally out the window and just think of the whole thing as a training tool?

然后你就会想，好吧，我在锻炼手指，我在努力，谁还在乎数字呢？

And you're just kinda like, well, I'm stimulating my fingers and I'm trying hard, and it's like, who cares about the numbers?

对。

Yeah.

我在室外的攀爬难度一直比在健身房或训练板上要高。

I've always climbed multiple grades harder outside than I have in the gym or on the boards.

举个例子，我在室外完成过几条V12，算是低端的V12吧，而在月球板上我只完成过一条V10。

For reference, I've done a couple of maybe lower end 12s, V12s outside, and I've done like one V10 on the moon board.

而且我甚至想不出还有哪条我能完成的。

And I can't even think of another that I would maybe be able to do.

所以确实需要重新调整一下预期。

So there's a recalibration process for sure.

就像你说的，我得弄清楚怎么把训练板当作工具来用。

And just figuring out kinda like what you said, how I can use the boards as a tool.

我每次训练想达到什么效果？

What am I looking for from my session?

我想挑战什么难度？

What challenge level am I looking for?

难度等级可以作为起点，但要知道它可能高也可能低，重点还是放在你希望从这次训练中得到什么。

And the grades can serve as a starting point for that, but knowing that it can go up or down and just focusing on what I do want to get out of the session.

不过我早就把攀岩板上的难度等级抛到脑后了。

But I've done away with grades on the board long ago.

那你到底是怎么做到的呢？

How do you actually do that though?

我是说，这说起来容易做起来难。

Mean, that's the kind of easier said than done.

就像，你怎么把难度等级和攀岩体验分开呢？

It's like, how do you separate the grade from the climbing experience?

而且我觉得，对每个人来说，更广泛地讲，你在户外攀岩时是怎么做到这一点的？

And I mean, and I suppose for everybody actually in a more broad sense, like how do you do that when you're climbing outside?

比如，你怎么把“你应该爬多难”或者“你觉得你应该达到什么水平”或者数字告诉你的，和你实际体验到的分开？

Like how do you separate like what you think you should be climbing or how hard you think you should be or whatever the number says from like the actual experience that you're having?

怎么把享受或成就感跟难度等级分开呢？

How to separate, you know, your enjoyment or fulfillment from grades?

我觉得这是个很大的问题，像我这种普通的周末攀岩爱好者，我觉得我们到了一个瓶颈期，难度等级开始变成享受体验的阻碍。是的，我觉得很多人攀岩很久但水平不高，或者攀岩很久但没有投入太多精力去提升表现，他们就会形成一种心态，我不知道用“传统攀老爸”这个词合不合适，就是那种“哎呀，等级不重要，等级都是扯淡，重要的是开心，是冒险，是那些其他的东西”的心态。

And I feel like that's like the big question and someone like me who's like a average, you know, weekend warrior climber, I feel like we get to a point where we kind of plateau and grades start to become kind of more of a detractor from the enjoyment of the experience and yeah, I think it's easy for a lot of people who've been climbing a long time but not at a high level or climbing a long time but not put a ton of effort in performance to kind of adopt this like, I don't know if trad dad's the right word but this mentality of just like, oh, it's not about the grades, like grades are all bullshit, it's about having fun, it's about doing all this other stuff and adventure and running it out or whatever.

但我觉得如果你想，那种心态其实不太管用，长期来看是行不通的。每次你出去攀岩，看着那些高山项目，有人问你爬的路线难度是多少，你还是得面对等级的问题。我觉得根据我的经验，最好的保持满足感而不纠结于等级的方法，是找到其他可以量化的方式来衡量难度或你付出的努力，比如攀爬量、在户外待的时间，或者其他可以量化的东西。

But I think if you wanna, like that doesn't really work, that sort of mindset doesn't work long term, it's still something you're grappling with every time you go outside and you look at mountain projects and then someone's asking you the difficulty of the route you're on, you kind of have to engage with grades in some way and I feel like in my experience, the best way to gain, to keep that like satisfaction without hyper fix setting on the grade is to find other quantifiable methods to measure the difficulty or the effort you've put in, whether it's like volume or hours spent outside or other things that are quantifiable.

我觉得我们确实需要一些可以量化的东西，不一定非得是等级，但这些指标能帮助我们感受到自己做的事情的价值。

I think we have to have something quantifiable and it doesn't have to be a grade, but those metrics help us like feel value in what we're doing.

最近我们做了一期关于宽裂缝的节目。

Recently, we did an episode on on offwidths.

我觉得宽裂缝在等级方面就像是一个神奇的平衡器，因为对大多数人来说，那些数字几乎毫无意义。

And I feel like offwidths are sort of like this amazing equalizer with grades where, like, the numbers are almost meaningless to most people.

因为普通攀岩者去爬一条5.10的宽裂缝，会经历一次完整的人生体验，而且可能会让他们变得更糟。

Because, like, the average climber trying to five ten offwidth will have, a full life experience that'll, like, change them for the worse.

所以我觉得在户外有些特定的风格，比如约书亚树的石板攀岩，你知道，你会觉得“哦，这个数字并不能完全反映你将要经历的体验”，如果你去爬一条5.9，比如约书亚树那种老派的5.9石板路线。

And so, I mean, I think that there are certain styles outside or, like, say, say, like, Joshua Tree slab climbing, you know, where you're sort of like, oh, the number doesn't totally reflect the experience that you're about to have if you try to climb, like, a a five nine, like an old school five nine slab in Joshua Tree.

你会觉得“我的天哪”。

You're gonna be like, oh my god.

所以，你知道，我们刚才在讨论抱石难度等级的主观性，以及如何把那种体验区分开来。

And so, you know, I mean, you know, we're talking about the the subjective nature of grades on boards and and and, like, separating that type of experience.

但是，你在户外爬的那些路线呢？有些风格特别独特，你会觉得，这跟其他难度等级完全不是一个类别的。

But what about the the climbs that you do outside where it's, like, such a specific style that you're sort of like, oh, this seems completely out of category compared to, like, the rest of grades.

因为，大部分时候，我们想到路线难度，基本上就是按攀岩馆里的感觉来想的，或者运动攀岩场那种，比较舒适、正常的难度。

Because, like, you know, for the most part, when you think of route grades, we think of how something would feel in a climbing gym, basically, or, like, at a sport crag where it's kind of like a comfortable, normal grade.

那那些特别另类的难度等级呢？比如你会想，哦，这是个烟囱。

Like, what about all those outlier grades where you're kind of like, oh, it's a chimney.

比如，你上次爬5.11的烟囱是什么时候？

Like, you know, like, when was the last time you climbed to 511 Chimney?

然后你会想，天哪。

And you're like, oh god.

那真的太难了。

That's, like, so hard.

我对这些边缘难度等级的看法是，它们明显就是不一样的。

My my thought on fringe grades is that they're just so obviously different.

比如宽缝，你就觉得它肯定特别不一样，所以那个数字不会太影响你的自尊心，你会想，哦，我只不过是在一条5.9的宽缝上被虐了，因为每个人在5.9的宽缝上都会被虐。

Like, an offwidth, you just expect it to be so different that it doesn't bother you that that the the number is you know, like, doesn't affect your ego as much that you're like, oh, I just got bouted on a five nine offwidth because, like, everybody gets bouted on five nine offwidth.

听你这么说，亚历克斯，我想到的就是我之前提到的那个观点。

All I think about hearing you say that, Alex, is exactly what I had mentioned before.

就是，我之前说我们最多能做到的就是尽量让一个区域内的难度等级保持一致，其实差不多，你可以把宽缝、裂缝或者动态动作看作它们自己的一个区域。

And that is that like, when I mentioned that the best we can do is try and make grades consistent within an area, I mean, it's kind of similar like, you could almost think of offwidths or like splitters or I mean dinos as like kind of their own area too, you know.

它们几乎有自己的一套难度标准。

Like they they almost like occupy their own grading scale.

而且我觉得这就像我记得第一次去VRG、胡德山、史密斯岩或者赛尤兹，结果被完全虐惨了，因为我去的时候心里想的是，我觉得我懂难度等级，因为我去过这三个地方什么的。

And I think that's all, you know, just in the same way that I remember the first time I ever went to the VRG or The Hood or Smith Rock or Sayuz and like got completely destroyed, you know, because I went into it with the mentality of like, I think I understand grades because I've been to these three places or whatever.

我觉得同样的道理，你最终会明白，那些风格特别独特的东西，如果你没有那种技能，那对你来说就会很难。

I think in that same way, you know, eventually you learn that things that are of a really distinct style, like if you don't have that skill set, then you're gonna like it's gonna be difficult for you.

我甚至会说，就像爬屋檐一样，如果你没有爬屋檐的技巧，而你只爬过垂直的路线，那你一开始会寸步难行。

I mean, would even go so far as to say that, you know, in the same way that like climbing in a roof, you know, if you don't have the the technique to climb in a roof, and all you've climbed is like vertical stuff, like it you're gonna, like, go nowhere, you know, at first.

一开始就像在学一项新运动一样。

It's gonna be like a new sport for a little while.

对。

Yeah.

就像是……

It's like it's

我总觉得这就像语法，或者语言的构造一样。比如像slab这种，你可以不断练习，然后进步很多。

I always think of it, like, as, like, syntax or, like, the, like, constructions of language, like, where, you know, something like a slab, like, you can develop that and get so much better at that.

然后这实际上会影响你，你会看到有人在一条仰角运动路线的上部slab上脱落，然后你会想，天哪，那太厉害了。

And then that actually, like, impact you know, that will improve you know, you'll, like, witness somebody, like, whip off the upper slab of a, like, overhanging sport route and you're like, oh, man, that's so rugged.

你会发现，如果你掌握了攀岩语言的所有部分，你的整体状态会好很多。

And you realize, like, if you learn the complete whole of all the parts of, like, climbing language, you you end up in a lot better space.

因为我现在处于一个水平不断下降的阶段。

I mean, because, I'm at a stage in my life where I'm going nothing but down through the grades.

所以我从中找不到什么目的和意义，除了那种在户外攀爬、向上移动、感到害怕或专注时带来的纯粹快乐。

And so I can't find any purpose and meaning in that, you know, other than, like, there's, like, just an inherent joy of being outside and climbing and moving upward and and feeling scared or feeling, concentrated or the focus that comes with it.

我从来没有找到过其他类似的东西。

And there's just I've never found anything else like it.

这真的很棒，但我觉得在理解像动态动作的所有细微差别方面，有一段非常不可思议的旅程。

And it's so wicked, but I feel like there's such an incredible journey to take in terms of understanding all the little nuances of, like, a dino.

对吧？

Right?

而且知道，哦，那可能是我的弱点，或者我可能，你知道，或者像岩板，你知道，而且越来越多，我越来越吃力，因为我的柔韧性在下降。

And and knowing, oh, that might be my weakness or I might, you know or or like a slab, like, you know, and more and more, like, I'm struggling because, like, some of my flexibility is going away.

这真的很有趣。

Like, that's a really interesting thing.

不是说我没法训练这个，但这就是全部。

Not that I can't, like, train for that, but that is, like it's like all of it.

只是有这种变化的一面，其中一些，我觉得，我能够，即使从级别上看，我变成了一个更差的攀岩者，我仍然认为，我能找到某种对存在的理解，或者某种快乐和成长，因为我仍然能够攀爬各种各样的东西，而且不需要付出太多努力。

It's just there's, like, this changing side where some of that, I think, I've I've I'm able to, like even though, like, on a level, I'm becoming, like, a worse climber, if you look at it by grades, I still think it is, like, I I can kind of find some level of understanding of being or some level of, like, joy and growth because I still am able to climb a wide variety of things and not not have to put that much effort into doing that too.

我有一个问题想问大家。

I have a question for everyone.

就是，你在攀岩中最引以为豪的事情是最难的吗？

It's like, is the thing you're most proud of in climbing the hardest thing?

对我来说，肯定不是。

For me, definitely not.

不过我也不是那种花了很多时间和精力去挑战高难度攀岩的人。

But I also have, and not somebody who's put a lot of time and effort into climbing hard.

所以我能理解，我能理解为什么对别人来说可能会是那样。

So I could, I could see why, like, I could see why it wouldn't be for other people.

那你最自豪的是什么？

What is it that you're most proud of?

我觉得对我来说，是克服心理障碍，不管是恐惧，还是在我生活中遇到其他事情、让我很难集中精力的时候，去做一些困难的事情，或者很难抽出时间去练习、去积累时间，但我还是克服了，你知道吧，即使那不是难度最高的路线，但因为生活中其他事情，它是最难让我专注的。

I think for me, it's like overcoming like mental blockages, whether that's like fear or like doing something hard in a time in my life when I was going through other things outside of climbing that made it hard to focus, know, or hard to to put in the time and like log the hours and still overcoming it, you know, even if it wasn't the hardest number grade, was like the hardest to focus on because of what else is going on in my life, you know.

你能举个例子吗？比如你记得的某次攀岩经历？

Can you give an example of any climate you remember like that?

或者，你知道，任何一次你觉得特别突出的经历？

Or, you know, any, any climate that you sort of remember as particularly a standout experience?

可能是个有点奇怪的例子。

It's probably, it's kind of a weird example.

我刚开始做记者的时候，是在《Rock and Ice》实习，大概是2018年，也可能是2017年。

So I got my start as a journalist as an intern for Rock and Ice back in like 2018, think 2017.

我有小纤维神经病变，是一种自身免疫性疾病，手脚会有灼烧感、刺痛和麻木。现在我在吃药控制，但当时拿到实习机会的时候，症状很严重，几乎完全没法好好攀岩，爬的时候不舒服，系绳子也不舒服。我小时候爬过，所以特别兴奋，心想天哪，我要去《Rock and Ice》实习了。结果到了那里，大家都在爬5.14，每天出去爬，我什么都做不了，几乎觉得丢脸，觉得自己根本不该在这里，心想我为什么在这儿，我现在爬不了，真糟糕。

And I have, I have small fiber neuropathy, so I have an autoimmune disease and it comes with like a burning and tingling and numbness in my hands and feet and I take medication for it now but back then when I got the internship, I was having a lot of symptoms and I wasn't able to really climb hard like at all and it just was like uncomfortable to climb and it was uncomfortable to rope up and got the internship, I've been a climber when I was younger and I was so psyched to, I was like, my God, I'm gonna be an intern at Rockin' Ice and I got there and everybody was like climbing five fourteen and going out every day and I couldn't do any of it and I was almost like ashamed and I was like, I shouldn't even be here like, why am I, like I can't climb right now, suck, you know.

整个夏天实习期间，我主要专注于写作，但自己的攀岩，最后就是爬了很多14座或者一些不需要用力拉的路线，比如5.5的山脊攀爬之类的。

And that whole summer being their intern, mean, I focused mostly on the writing but like my own climbing, I ended up just doing a bunch of like 14 or scrambles where I didn't have to like pull hard, it's like five five Ridge scramble or whatever.

我大概爬了30到40座科罗拉多的14ers，还自己走了很多横穿路线。我是在阿拉巴马长大的，小时候那里没有什么高山。

I think I did like 30 or 40 Colorado fourteeners and a bunch of traverses by myself and that's kind of I got into and I grew up in Alabama, so I didn't have any big peaks where I was growing up.

所以在科罗拉多实习，那是我第一次真正身处在高山之中。

So being out in Colorado as their intern, that was like my first time being in the big mountains.

这个例子有点长，但总之，不是某一条特别难的路线，但我就是做了那种横向的转变，对，我不是去和爬5.12的人一起系绳爬岩壁，而是自己背包徒步，去爬那些山峰，但对我来说，这比第一次爬5.12什么的更有意义，远远更有意义。

So kind of a long winded example but anyways, wasn't, it wasn't a single route or like anything particularly hard but I just kind of made one of those like lateral transitions right into like, yeah, I wasn't going out and roping up with people climbing 512, you know, at the crag outside, I was like doing, you know, solo backpacking trips and scrambling these like peaks, but that felt more meaningful to me than the first, you know, five twelve I did or whatever, like by far.

这有点像Fitz在开头说的，我觉得对外行人，对不攀岩的人来说，他们想象中的攀岩经历就是，哦，爬了30到40座大山，走大脊线，独自在荒野里。

That's kind of what Fitz was saying in the intro is that, I think to the lay person, to the non climber, that's kind of what they think of as a climbing experience when you're like, Oh, climbed 30 or 40 giant mountains and like big ridges and was like alone in the wilderness.

我觉得很多人，或者说至少不攀岩的人，就是这么理解攀岩的。

And I mean, I think that's what a lot of people think of as climbing, you know, or like non climbers anyway.

而且作为攀岩者，我们会觉得，哦，你那个5.12的项目上，那个单指扣点你抓稳了吗？

And it's like, as climbers, we think of it as like, Oh, you know, did you stick the mono on your five twelve project?

那太厉害了。

That's sick.

但这对普通人来说可能太专业了，因为我觉得非攀岩者会把攀岩看作一种广泛的人生体验。

Know, it's like a little too niche because I think the non climber thinks of it as this broad life experience thing.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

而且你描述的正是那种，在山里经历大冒险，感觉特别震撼。

And it's like, you're you're describing exactly that, like having big experiences in the mountains where you're just like, oh, it's epic.

对吧？

Know?

就像山脊上的日出。

It's like sunrise on a ridge.

那真的太酷了。

Like, that's so cool.

对。

Yeah.

那真是个精彩的故事。

That is a wicked story.

其实我一直也挺喜欢这类东西的。

I mean, I've I've kind of always been sucked into that stuff too.

就是，你知道，我特别喜欢那些。

It's like, you know, I love that that stuff.

我当时就想，哦，我也不太清楚。

I was like, oh, I don't know.

我那天早上在车库里训练，状态特别差，挺让人沮丧的。

I'd, like, trained in my garage the other morning and totally sucked and it's very depressing.

然后下午就去卖那个阿尔卑斯山脊的东西了，因为我就觉得，哦，我只需要去山里做点事，顺便出门透透气。

And then went and sold this, like, Alpine Ridge thing in the afternoon because I was just like, oh, I just need to, like, go do a thing in the mountains and, like, also, like, get out of the house.

家里人多，事儿也多。

Too much family around, too much whatever.

但我就觉得，能在外面做点事真好，在石头间跳来跳去，爬来爬去。

But I was like, oh, it's just so nice to, like, do a thing outside and, like, jump between rocks and like scramble.

朱丽叶，那你呢？

Juliet, how how about you for you?

你最引以为傲的事情，是不是也是最难的事情？

It's like the the thing you're most proud of, is it is it the hardest thing?

对。

Yeah.

是的，没错。

That's something yeah.

我刚才听欧文说话的时候一直在想这个。

I've I've just been thinking about while listening to to Owen talk.

而且我很多时候其实挺困扰的，比如当我突破一个新的难度等级，或者爬我爬过最难的那些线路时，因为根据我的经验，尤其是在抱石方面，很多线路都需要我花很多时间去摸索动作，我得找出不同的动作，或者找到中间点，或者用不同的脚点。

And I've actually a lot of times kind of had trouble with like when I broke into a new grade or even my hardest climbs, because in my experience, especially with bouldering there's a lot of beta finding that has to go on for me for a lot of climbs where I have to figure out different beta or find intermediates, use different feet.

而且我一些最难的攀登完成得很快，因为那些线路很适合我，我根本不需要经历那个摸索的过程。

And some of my hardest ascents went really quickly, because they fit me and because I just didn't have to go through that process.

所以我觉得我从那些攀登中获得的满足感或者自豪感，可能还不如一些难度较低但需要我付出更多努力或者需要我更有创造力的线路。

And so I guess I walk away from those climbs, necessarily feeling the same level of satisfaction or, pride that I might from a lower grade climb that took me more effort or that I had to be more creative on.

是的，我觉得Owen说的真的让我很有共鸣，我最自豪的攀登往往是那些和某种经历联系在一起的。

And yeah, I would say what Owen said really resonated with me where climbs I think I'm most proud of are the ones that were linked to another experience.

比如可能我当时正经历一段艰难时期，光是出现就已经很不容易了，而我能出现去尝试这条攀岩线路，给自己一点时间，诸如此类的事情，让完成那条线路或者那个抱石变得更有意义，而不是我爬过最难的那条，你知道，我甚至可能对那条线路有些矛盾的感觉，比如，哦，我没有像自己预期的那样努力或者付出那么多。

Like maybe I was going through a hard time and just showing up was hard and being able to show up just to try this rock climb and have a little time for myself and things like that made sending that climb or that boulder more meaningful than maybe my hardest sense that, you know, I could even had just kinda like conflicting feelings about like, oh, I didn't try or work as hard as I would have expected for that.

那Jonathan呢？

And Jonathan?

我觉得

I think

我也同意Owen说的。

that I I also agree with Owen in that.

我是说，我一直深信，你在一件事上投入的越多，收获就越多。

I I mean, I've always been really convinced by the fact that the more effort you put into something, the more you get out of it.

所以一般来说，这往往和我最难的那些路线相吻合。

So generally speaking, that tends to coincide with my hardest roots.

但当我想到是什么让我为这些经历感到自豪时，并不一定是难度等级，也不仅仅是路线或等级的名字那么简单。

But when I'm thinking about, like, what makes me feel prideful of those experiences, it's not necessarily like the grade or it's not simplified in just like the name of the root of the grade.

而是当我想到，对我来说，坚持出现有多难，以及克服那种困难的过程。

It's when I think about how difficult it was for me to keep showing up and, like, overcoming that difficulty.

甚至不一定是指攀爬本身，比如实际攀爬路线的动作，而是指为了实现这件事而打下的所有基础。

Like, not even necessarily, like, climbing, like, the act of physically climbing the root, but just, the act of manifesting all of the foundation that was required to do the thing.

你知道，比如情感上的投入，还有所需的牺牲或准备，以及所有的时间和一次次在充满不确定性的情况下坚持出现，这真的是一件很难的事情。

You know, like emotionally being there and and, you know, the sacrifice or preparation that was required and then like all the time and just the act of showing up again and again with so much uncertainty is is a really hard thing to do.

而且自愿长时间生活在如此多的怀疑中，真的是一件很难主动去做的事情。

And to like live in this state of so much doubt for such a long time is, like, just a really hard thing to voluntarily do.

对我来说，克服这些困难以及随之而来的教训，才是攀爬超难路线最有趣、最有回报的部分。

And that that's to me, that's, like, the most kind of overcoming that and the lessons that come with that is the most interesting and rewarding part about climbing super hard routes in my opinion.

有没有哪条路线让你印象特别深刻？

Was there a route that in that stood out on?

其实有很多路线最后都变得差不多。

I mean, there's a lot of them that end up being the same.

我现在就正在经历这个过程。

I mean, I'm in that process right now.

我实际上只剩一天时间去试一条我已经试了五个星期的路线，而且天气很糟糕，感觉什么都不顺，但我还是得去试，你明白吧。

I literally have one more day to try a route that I've been trying for five weeks and the weather sucks and it's like like nothing could really be going nothing is going well and I just like have to try, you know.

不过，是的，我也不知道。

But I mean, yeah, I don't know.

有几条路线确实让我印象深刻。

There there's a few that kinda stick out to me.

其中一条特别史诗级的，我想我以前在这个节目或者Climbing Gold里提过，就是“Stoking the Fire”，那真的是一次彻底让我身心俱疲的经历，所有的一切都浓缩到了最后一天。

I mean the one, the the like super epic one that I think I've talked about on this program or on the climbing gold in the past is stoking the fire which was just like a totally experience of like breaking myself mentally and emotionally and everything boiling down to like the very last day.

然后到了岩场才发现我带了两只左脚鞋，你知道，然后疯狂开车回家，拿了一只右脚鞋，赶在天黑前做了最后一次尝试。

And then arriving at the crag just to discover that I had brought two left shoes and you know, frantically driving home and getting a rad having one last try you know, before it got dark kind of thing.

所有这些，比如我多少次特别想放弃，你知道吗。

Like all of that, like the like how many times I went through the process of like wanting to give up so badly, you know.

我的意思是，这几乎就像攀岩本身一样，你知道吗？

I mean it's all it's it's almost like a like analogous to the actual act of climbing, you know?

当你攀爬非常难的东西时，你会有一种想要放手的感觉。

When you're climbing something really hard, you kinda have this sensation of wanting to let go.

对吧？

Right?

就像放手太容易了，你一直在提醒自己必须坚持住。

Like it's just it's so easy to just let go, and you're just constantly reminding yourself that you have to hold on.

我本来想问一个普遍的问题，你觉得难度等级会激励还是阻碍人们去尝试？

I was gonna ask sort of in a general sense, do we think that grades incentivize or disincentivize people to try things?

比如，你觉得对等级的执着是鼓励人们尝试更难的东西，还是因为看起来太难而让人不敢去发挥自己的潜力，你知道吗？

Like, do you think the the fixation on grades encourages people to try harder things than they would, or do you think it keeps people away from from perhaps reaching their own potential, you know, because something seems too hard or whatever?

我觉得两者都有，但最终，这可能是个有点大胆的观点，我认为等级以及攀岩板的游戏化，还有整个关于等级的概念，是攀岩受欢迎的部分原因。

I mean, certainly both, but I think ultimately, like, this is a bit of a hot take maybe, but I think that grades and the gamification of boards and stuff and, like, just the whole concept around grades is part of the reason for climbing's popularity.

我觉得人们会被这个吸引，新攀岩者喜欢这种简单的V1、V2、V3等级，然后想着怎么提高，尤其是健身房攀岩的人。

I think that people are drawn to that and they like in a new climber likes this really simple kinda v one, v two, v three, you know, and like thinking about trying to improve and especially a gym climber.

我觉得这确实增加了攀岩的受欢迎程度。

I think it really does add to the popularity of climbing.

我觉得人们喜欢这个，他们喜欢这个可以爬的小梯子，即使只是周末或者每周一个晚上去爬。

I think people are into it and they like this little ladder that they can climb, you know, even if it's just on the weekends or one night a week or whatever.

我觉得这真的很酷。

I think it's really cool.

我觉得总体上它是有激励作用的，但我确实认为等级制度伴随着很多心理因素，我敢肯定对不少人来说。

I think it overall incentivizes, but I do think that there's a lot of psychology that comes along with grading that I'm I'm sure that for quite a few people.

我猜朱丽叶对此有很多话要说，它可能会成为进步的障碍。

I bet Juliet has a lot to say about this, that it can be a bit of a hindrance to to progress.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这很大程度上取决于个人的性格类型。

I would say it can depend a lot on just personality type.

我两种观点都能理解。

I kinda see it both ways.

总的来说，我觉得大概有两种人。

And just to generalize, there's kinda, I would say two types of people.

有一种人特别受等级数字的激励，有时会过度追求，或者忽略了过程，就像我之前说的，会过于关注那个数字。

There's the person who is very incentivized by the number in the grade and can sometimes overshoot or lose focus on the process kind of like I was talking about earlier but kind of getting fixated on the number.

还有一种人倾向于回避，或者觉得自己可能低估了自己的能力，看到数字就会退缩，因为那个数字而气馁。

And then there's the person who tends to shy away or feels like they maybe underestimate their abilities a little bit and see a number and will be, deterred because of number.

我自己就经常这样，对数字感到害怕，这让我在应该尝试更难路线的时候退缩了。

And that's something that I've personally done a lot of is gotten afraid of the number and it kind of held me back from trying harder climbs when I should have been.

我觉得这在健身房设置比赛线路的时候就能看出来，看看人们对那些没有等级的比赛线路的反应。

I think you can kinda see that in action whenever there's, like, a comp set at the gym and and see how people respond to those, like, comp set problems that aren't aren't graded.

但那也是因为风格完全不同。

But that but that's also because the style is totally different.

因为，比如说，我通常不太碰比赛线路，但更多是因为我不想，比如，肩膀受伤，跳上去做十字支撑什么的。

Because, like, I often don't mess with comp set problems, but it's more because I don't wanna, like, throw out my shoulder, like, jumping into some iron cross.

你懂吧？

You know?

我就觉得，哎呀。

I'm sort of like, oh, man.

你懂吧？

You know?

对，就是这样。

It's like yeah.

其实，我本来想说的正好相反。

I mean, because I was actually gonna say the opposite.

我是说，我特别喜欢那种，你知道，像保龄球项目那种健身房，就是那种单色调的。

I love gyms that are set on a, you know, like like the bowling project gyms, I'd say, that are, sort of like monochromatic.

怎么说呢？

What do you call it?

循环风格。

Circuit style.

就像循环一样。

Like circuits.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

就是循环风格。

Like circuit style.

而那种，你就在场馆里到处走，把所有橙色线路都爬一遍。

Whereas, like, you just wander around the gym doing all the orange problems.

然后再到处走，把所有紫色线路都爬一遍。

Then you wander around the gym doing all the purple problems.

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

而且我就是喜欢这样，因为你知道，它有一个很大的范围，比如橙色代表V4到V7，有些很简单，有些很难，你全都试一遍，因为你完全不知道会是什么情况。

And it's like, I just like that because, you know, where it's kind of like a great range where, like, orange represents, you know, v four to v seven and you're kinda like, some of them are pretty easy, some of them are really hard and you just try them all because you have no idea.

对。

Yeah.

我确实也这么觉得。

I I actually agree.

我从小爬的那个岩馆，我在那里当了七年的定线员。

The gym I grew up climbing at and was root setter at for seven years.

对于抱石，我们用的是初级、中级、高级和精英级。

For bouldering, we used beginner, intermediate, advanced elite.

而且很长一段时间，我们甚至都不给它标V等级。

And for a long time, we didn't even assign like v grades to it.

就是那样，你知道吧？

It was just like, that's what it is, you know?

而且我确实很喜欢那样。

And and I I did I did really like that.

我觉得那挺酷的。

I thought that that was cool.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这样能鼓励大家什么都去试试。

I think it encourages people just to try everything.

我特别喜欢这种按颜色分区的风格，因为你可以随便逛，每个问题都去试一下。

Like, I love the the circuit style because you just wander around, you try every problem.

比如那些斜面、仰角，你看到是橙色的，就会想，哦，这是橙色的。

Like the slabs, the overhangs, you're just kinda like, well, it's an orange one.

我得把所有橙色的都爬完。

I gotta do all the orange ones.

而且，某种程度上，我觉得这反而会鼓励我去尝试更难的那些，比如说，最难的颜色是黑色或者白色什么的，就是健身房最难的那些。

And then and I mean, in some ways, I think it actually encourages me at least to try the harder ones even because, like, say, the hardest color is the the the blacks or the whites or whatever, like, the hardest thing in the gym.

或者我觉得可能是粉色，在一些反传统的健身房里。

Or I think it might be pinks right in, some of the polar opponent gyms.

他们现在有薄荷色的了。

They've got they've got mints now.

薄荷色的是最难的。

There's mints that are the hardest.

对。

Yeah.

他们加了，就像他们不得不提高难度等级。

They've added it's like they had they had to boost the scale.

对。

Yeah.

我当时想，哦，我们需要扩展一下。

I was like, oh, it's we need we need to expand it.

但是这是

But it's

就像，嘿。

like hey.

但这不是进步。

But like That's not progress.

我不知道那是什么。

I don't know what it is.

对。

Yeah.

但通常来说，在商业健身房我未必能完成最难的挑战，但你会四处走走，想着也许有一个我能做到。

But, like, typically, I can't really do, like, the hardest things in a commercial gym necessarily, but then you wander around being like, well, maybe there's one that I can do.

你知道吗？

You know?

你有点像这样，所以这鼓励你尝试所有的，因为，对，你永远不知道哪一个实际上没那么难。

You're kinda like and so it encourages you to try all of them because, yeah, you just never know which one is gonna be the one that's, like, actually not that hard.

对我来说，通常是那些平板型的。

Typically, for me, are the slabby ones.

但我就是觉得，当上面没有数字时，你更愿意去尝试所有东西，看看自己能不能做到。

But I just feel like when you don't have a number on it, you're way more inclined to just try everything and just see if you can do it.

我很好奇，我们刚才提到了比赛线路。

Well, I'm curious, like, like, we brought up, the comp problems.

对吧，欧文？

Right, Owen?

然后，当那些线路出现的时候。

And, like, when that shows up.

我觉得我确实看到有人会去尝试，即使他们知道那很难。

And I I feel like I do see people, like, jump on that even though they know it's hard.

他们知道那是为比赛设置的，然后第二天，那些抱石线路通常没有难度等级，大家就会说，哦，这看起来怎么样？

Like, they know it was just set for a comp, and then, the day afterwards, like, there's and there's usually not a, like, a v grade attached to those boulder problems, and people are just like, oh, what does this look like?

它是什么样的动作？

What does it do?

我觉得这很有意思，因为对我来说，在攀岩中有一些很鼓舞人心的时刻，比如我记得克里斯·夏尔马爬曼陀罗那条线，你知道，没有给它定级，但那些照片。

And and I think that's interesting because, like, for me, I feel like there were there's some pretty, like, inspiring moments, like, throughout climbing where like, I remember Chris Sharma on the mandala and, you know, not grading that, but the pictures from it.

那是一条很美的线路，你会觉得，哇。

And it was like this beautiful problem, and you're like, wow.

也许你会想，站在下面会是什么感觉？

Maybe you know, like, what's that gonna be like to stand underneath?

而且我觉得现在在世界杯的赛场上，这些线路其实也没有定级，大家都知道它们非常难。

And I even think now in, like, the World Cup setting, there's no grades that really attached to them, and we know they're all wicked hard.

但我看到我的孩子们后来去健身房，试着模仿那些动作。

But I see, like, my kids go to the gym later on and try to, like, emulate the movement from it.

他们可能知道自己爬不了那么难，但至少能感受到那种感觉。

And it's somehow it's it's like they probably know they're not gonna climb that hard, but they can at least have that feeling.

而且我觉得，有时候那些没有定级的东西，回想起来反而最激励我们，是不是？

And I like, are sometimes the things with the least amount of grades the most inspiring to us if you look back?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得关键在于投入的努力。

I mean, just think it's all about the effort that's put into it.

亚当其实也没必要给“沉默”定级，对吧？

I mean, Adam certainly didn't need to grade silence, you know?

但光是知道他是史上最优秀的攀岩者，再看到他付出的努力，你就会觉得，天哪。

But just knowing that he's the best climber who ever lived and then seeing the amount of effort that he put into it, you're just like, oh, fuck.

那条线路真的很难。

That thing is hard.

你知道，就是感觉那是另一个级别的。

You know, you just like know that it's next level.

就像我说的，我觉得它不一定需要被定级。

Like, I don't even think it necessarily, like I said, I don't think it needs to be graded.

对克里斯来说也是一样的。

It's just and and that's the same for Chris.

我是说，克里斯在完成曼陀罗的时候，他已经是世界上最好的攀岩者之一了。

I mean, Chris is like the time that he did the Mandala, he was like, you know, one of the best climbers in the world.

你知道，我们的传记对克里斯来说也是一个很好的例子。

You know, our biography is a great example for Chris too.

但说到底，这才是最重要的。

But yeah, I mean, I mean, ultimately, that's kind of what it's about.

对吧？

Right?

就是说，这其实关乎我们个人的体验，以及它给我们每个人带来的挑战，还有你是否愿意迎接这个挑战。

Like, it's kind of about our perceived experience and the the challenge that it offers each of us as individuals and whether or not you're kind of like up to the challenge.

我知道这么说有点老套，但确实是这样。因为有时候那个挑战可能是一条5.8的宽缝，从纸面上看，它不如你爬过的某条5.12的运动攀线路那么亮眼。

I mean that that's kind of a corny way of saying it, but it's true, know, like because sometimes that challenge is gonna be like a five eight off width And on paper, it's not as impressive as, you know, whatever five twelve sport climb you did.

但关键在于，根据你的技能、体型或者能力，你愿不愿意付出必要的努力去爬某条线路？

But, you know, for your skill set and your size or your abilities or whatever, basically, are you willing to put in the effort required to climb something?

如果你愿意，那整个过程就是关于尝试攀爬的体验。

And and then if you are, then it's like all about that experience of just trying to climb it.

我觉得难度等级确实是个很好的目标设定工具，它能激励我们去某些地方，尝试某些线路。

And I think grades are a really good way of goal setting and they help drive our motivation to go to certain places and to try certain things.

但说到底，真正重要的还是体验本身，路线的难度，以及你愿意为完成它付出多少努力。

But in the end, I mean, it's really just about the experience and, like, the difficulty of the route and how much effort you're willing to put in to do it.

我觉得这可能有点跑题，但我们对世界其他地方的难度分级体系怎么看？那些体系似乎更多地反映了那种体验。

I mean, this this might be a bit of a detour, but how do we all feel about grading systems like in other parts of the world that sort of reflect more of that experience.

因为，杰斯塔，你说的其实就是攀岩更关乎你个人的体验。

Because, I mean, really what you're saying, Jaystar, is that, you know, climbing is more about the experience that you have.

但有些其他的分级系统，比如英国的，就是围绕整体体验来设计的，而不只是看动作的物理难度。

But then some the other grading systems, like, say, The UK, are sort of built around the overall experience as opposed to, just the physical difficulty of something.

就像英国的E级。

So like the e grades in The UK.

比如你爬E8，它基本上告诉你的是那种体验会是什么感觉，而不是具体动作的实际难度。

Like if you're climbing E eight, you know, it's basically telling you what the experience is gonna feel like rather than the actual difficulty of the physical moves.

其实我挺喜欢E级的，而且我也挺喜欢在英国爬那些路线，因为它确实给你一种感觉，比如，如果我爬E5，那就会是某种特定的感受。

And I actually kind of like the E grades and, you know, I kinda like climbing in The UK on some of those things because it does give you a sense like, oh, if I'm climbing E five, it's gonna be, like, a certain a certain feeling.

你懂吗？

You know?

就像，我会体验到一些东西，而且那个E代表极端。

Like, I'm gonna I'm gonna experience something, and it's gonna be e for extreme.

你懂吗？

You know?

那感觉会特别震撼。

It's gonna be, like, kinda kinda mega.

但我也说不准。

But I don't know.

你们怎么看？

Mean, any thoughts on that?

我是说，更大的问题可能是，我们的攀登体验在多大程度上是由分级系统决定的？

I mean, like, how I mean, guess the broader question is how much of our climate experience is defined by our grading system?

你知道，我们一直在说要把体验和等级分开，等等等等。

Know, because like we're talking about trying to separate the experience from the grades and blah, blah, blah.

但如果这个系统本身就是为融入体验而设计的呢？

But what if the system was just made to incorporate experience?

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what mean?

就像英国的E级那样。

Like e grades.

你知道吗，每个国家都有不同的难度体系。

Know, You it's like every country has a different grade system.

你就会想，为什么不用一种更能涵盖我们实际攀爬体验的难度体系呢？

You're kind like, well, why don't we just use a different grade system that encompasses more of our actual experience of climbing?

对。

Yeah.

不过E级难度确实很特别，因为它专门针对感知风险。

I mean, e grades are unique though because it's specifically about perceived risk.

嗯，其实也不完全是。

Well, I mean, it's not exactly though.

它确实跟危险有关，但你知道，它把风险、身体难度都算进去了。

It's like I mean, it is kind of around the danger, but, you know, it's it's putting in the risk, the physical difficulty.

就像，当你爬了很多条线路，比如去峰区那些地方，独自爬一堆HVS到E2的线路，你就会开始有那种感觉，就是你会想，E4要么是身体上很难，要么就是有点吓人，但总会给你那种E4的感觉。

It's like I mean, when you do a bunch of them, like, if you go, like, to some of the place in the Peak District and you just solo, like, tons of sort of, like, HVS to e two routes, you know, they start to have a feel to them where you're just kinda like, oh, e four is either gonna be, like, pretty hard physically or, like, kinda scary, but it's always gonna give you kind of this feeling of e four.

你知道，就像，哦，那会是一次不错的体验。

You know, like, oh, it'll be, like, a nice experience.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这真的很酷。

I mean, I think that's really cool.

我在这次对话里已经提过好几次了，我觉得等级并不能完全反映一条路线带来的整体挑战。

I think that as I've kind of mentioned several times on this conversation, I think that the the grades don't totally encapsulate the the overall challenge that a that a root can offer.

所以我觉得，如果能有一个分级系统，比如13a代表难度，然后还有一个第二等级是关于消耗体力之类的，那会很有意思。

And so I do think it it almost be interesting to have like a grading system where it's like 13 a is like the grade, like the difficulty, but then there could be like a second grade that's about like like exertion or something like that.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

因为很明显，一条80度的13a石板路线

Because like, obviously like a 13 a slab that's 80 degrees

和一条仰角路线完全不一样。

It's totally different than an overhanging off with.

比如那种肚子贴满蝙蝠屎的路线。

Like like belly full of bat berries.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

对。

Yeah.

所以，你知道，那可能会很有趣，但也就是另一个层面的细微差别，让我们可以拿来把表亲和外公外婆都搞糊涂。

So I mean, you know, that could be interesting, but, you know, just another level of nuance that we can all confuse the shit out of our cousins with and grandparents.

好的。

Alright.

回到刚才说的，等级到底有什么用，它服务于什么目的？

Circling back to like what is the utility of grades and what purpose does it serve?

如果你在攀爬中有个人体验，那算不算一种信息，你知道，等级是不是一种可以跟社区里其他人分享的信息？

If you have a personal experience on a climb, is it information, you know, are grades information to share with other people as a community?

还是说，没关系，就专注于你自己在做什么，以及你的体验。

Or is it like, it's fine, just focus on what you're doing and your experience on it.

你可以给它点赞，然后推荐给别人。

And you can give it the thumbs up and recommend it to other people.

但我觉得，我们就是想为社区提供某种价值。

But yeah, I guess just what purpose we want to serve for the community.

嗯，这是个好问题。

Well, that's a good question.

我们到底想让等级为社区带来什么？

What what do we want grades to serve for the community?

我觉得等级就像是引导你找到你想要的攀岩体验。

I mean, I think of grades as kind of guiding you towards the experience that you're looking for in climbing.

比如在健身房，我会用它们来调整到合适的强度，或者适合当天的挑战程度。

You know, like in a gym, use them to sort of guide me towards the proper level of exertion or, like, challenge for the session.

我会想，哦，我想被推到某个水平，但不要太难。

I'm like, oh, I wanna be pushed to a certain level, but not too hard, let's say.

我是说，大家是不是都这么用难度等级的？

I mean, is that how everybody uses grades?

就是说，用它来引导你找到当下想要的那种攀登体验？

I mean, just to try to like guide you towards the experience that you're looking for in that moment?

理想情况下是这样。

Ideally.

但确实，我有点好奇，特别是关于表现的那一面，这个我没什么发言权，但就是那种追求更高难度、突破极限，还有你爬得多难，跟你能不能成为职业攀岩者，或者能获得多少媒体关注，这些都有关系。我觉得这背后还有另一层意义。

But yeah, I do wonder like just with the performance aspect and that it's not something that I can particularly speak to, but with kind of like pushing grades and pushing limits and how hard you climb tying into whether or not you can be a professional climber or what kind of media attention you get or yeah I think there's kind of this other side to it.

理想情况下，我们都会用它来引导自己的体验，在攀岩中找到自己的满足感，但我确实觉得它们也有衡量和表现的作用。

Ideally yeah we would all use it just to guide our own experiences and find our own fulfillment with climbing but I do think they kind of do serve another purpose of measurement and performance.

我是说，职业攀岩的格局在过去二十年里变化太大了，甚至最近五年都变化很大。

I mean, the landscape of being a professional has changed so much in the last two decades, last five years even.

你知道，一个18岁的小孩，真的全力以赴，想成为职业攀岩者。

You know, an 18 year old kid who's like, you know, really going for it and wants to be a pro climber.

对他们来说，现在有很多不同的路可以走。

There are there are many different ways for them.

你知道，我们甚至得先定义什么是职业攀岩者。

I mean, you know, and we'd have to even define what pro climber is.

但如果他们想像我和Alex那样走职业攀岩的路，那他们的目标就是爬更难的路线。

But like if they wanna be a professional climber in the way that like in the same path that Alex and I tried to follow, then it would be their ambition to climb hard roots.

对吧？

Right?

嗯，或者以某种方式脱颖而出，可能是速度，可能是更大的，也可能是首攀。

Well, or to stand out somehow, which could be speed, it could be bigger, it could be first ascents.

但更难的等级是最明显、最容易的。

But harder grades are just the most obvious and, like, easiest thing.

所以你会觉得，如果你能爬得比别人难，那你就更厉害。

So you're kinda like, well, if you can climb a grade harder than everybody else, then you are better.

对。

Yeah.

完全同意。

Totally.

但是，你知道，现在攀岩的人太多了，真的很难脱颖而出。

But, I mean, you know, there's so many climbers now, it's really, really difficult to stand out.

是啊，这就是现在那些V17抱石爱好者的悲哀。

Well, that's the bummer of being like a v 17 bouldering bro nowadays.

你会觉得，哦，我是个18岁就能爬V17的人，但遗憾的是，这已经不足以让你在人群中脱颖而出了。

You're kinda like, oh, I'm an 18 year old that climbs v 17, and sadly, it doesn't even stand out from the crowd anymore.

你会觉得，哦，真是太可惜了。

You're kinda like, oh, that's such a bummer.

我知道，就是这样。

It's like that's I know.

还好我们不是在那个时代成长的。

It's like, thank God that that's not the scene that we're growing up in.

不然我就惨了。

I'd be so screwed.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

那会很难。

It'd be tough.

那会很难。

It'd be tough.

现在世界上有多少个5.15d的攀岩路线？

There are how many how many five fifteen d's are there in the world now?

有五个。

There's five.

对吗？

Is that right?

有五个。

There are five.

五个。

Five.

它们都没有重复过。

None of them have had a repeat.

对吗？

Is that correct?

对，没错。

That's correct.

就是说，你提到的参与度和难度之间的关系，是不是这样？

Does does the fact like, you talk about, like, engagement versus, like, difficulty.

在这个阶段，这些等级会不会反而阻碍那些有能力达到这个等级的人去尝试？

Do those grades at this stage, they do they almost, like, hamper another person that's capable of climbing that grade to go try that?

因为每个人都需要自己去发现，这样才能创造属于自己的新纪录。

Because it's, like, they need everyone needs to find that for themselves so they can make a headline that they've they've done their own new thing.

对吧？

Right?

那这种情况会不会改变？

Like, does that change?

就算有那些高难度等级，是不是反而会让人望而却步，因为会觉得，哎呀，我去试了但没成功？

Like, even having those big grades, does it almost or or is it almost, like, intimidating because it's like, oh, I I went and tried this and I didn't succeed?

我是说，我知道有人在尝试“沉默”那条线，雅各布也来试过“人性二元”那条。

I mean, I know that there are, you know, like, little bosses working on on silence, and, Jacob came over and tried the duality of man.

但是，从专业角度来看，你觉得大家是不是会有点回避去尝试那些超难的路线？

But, like, is there almost a like, do you think, from a professional standpoint, is there almost a aversion to trying one of those other, like, super difficult routes?

因为如果连靠近都做不到，可能会显得自己水平不行。

Because it it might like, might reflect poorly on you if you can't even come closer.

不值得去试。

It's not worth it.

我觉得恰恰相反。

I think it's the opposite.

我觉得高难度等级反而会吸引人。

I think the big grades attract people.

而且我觉得，虽然不确定，但乔纳森应该能证实这一点——当你首攀一条路线时，如果你给它定更高的难度，你就知道会有更多人想来尝试。

And I think, I mean, I don't know, Jonathan can probably back this up, but I think that when you're doing a first ascent, often if you give it the higher grade, you just know that more people will try it.

你知道吗？

Know?

就像你开发了一条新路线，你会觉得，哇，这真的太难了，然后你就在13D和14A之间纠结。

It's like if you put up some root, you're kinda like, oh, it's pretty freaking hard and you're torn between 13 D or 14 A.

你会想，如果我叫它14A，会有更多人愿意来尝试，比叫别的等级要多得多。

You're kinda like, you know, if I call it 14 a, a lot more people are gonna try this than than if I don't know.

我觉得在最顶尖的水平上，情况可能也是这样。

And I think that's probably true at the most elite level too.

就像，如果你把某条路线称为世界上最难的路线之一，它至少会吸引一些有能力挑战这个等级的人。

It's like, you think if you call something one of the hardest routes in the world, it's gonna attract, you know, at least a handful of people who are capable of that grade.

问题是，在那个水平上，人才太少了，所以显然不会有很多人，因为能尝试的人就那么几个。

I mean, thing is it's just such a small pool of talent at that level that it's like, obviously, it's not gonna be crowded because there are only a handful of people who can try it.

但我觉得，大的数字确实能吸引人。

But I don't I I think big numbers attract crowds.

我其实觉得，现在攀岩界最令人垂涎的成就之一，就是“沉默”的第二次攀登。

I actually think that probably one of the most coveted prizes in climbing right now is the second ascent of silence.