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亚历克斯，我很好奇，你喜欢在大日子出门前的准备工作吗？
I'm curious, Alex, whether you like the prep that happens before a big day out.
比如，收拾东西，想着要带什么装备，把一切都调整好，还有那些商量安排的过程。
Like, getting ready, like, thinking about the gear, dialing it all in, like, sort of negotiations that happen.
对。
Yeah.
有点吧。
Kind of.
我是说，当你把装备挂到安全带上，把每样东西都放进包里放得整整齐齐的时候，总是很兴奋。
I mean, it's always exciting when you're, like, putting the gear on the harness and getting everything in the bag just right.
是的。
Yeah.
就是知道第二天有重要的事情要发生，而你正在为此做准备。
Just knowing that something consequential is happening the next day and you are getting ready for it.
确实有些任务，穿什么衣服就能决定成败。
There are, like, totally some missions where what you're wearing can make the difference between success and failure.
在山上确实是这样。
Definitely in the mountains, that is true.
在寒冷的气候下也是，对。
And in cold climates and yeah.
我是说，在很多地方确实如此。
I mean, that's definitely true in a lot of places.
攀登大山的时候，如果你弄湿了又受凉，那就基本完蛋了。
Climbing big mountains are places where if you get wet and you get cold, it's kinda game over.
你就得下山了。
You're going down.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
你就得下山了。
You're going down.
所以穿对层次，穿对装备，就是我一个朋友说的‘行动服’。
And so having the right layering, having the right it's what one of my friends calls your action suit.
他说我总是用同一套装备，因为我知道它在山里靠得住。
Said I you always go to the same kit because you know it will hold up in the mountains, basically.
Summit Series是北面产品的巅峰之作。
Summit Series is the pinnacle North Face product.
这是你进行大日子活动时想要的装备。
It's what you want for big days.
这是你执行有后果的任务时想要的装备。
It's what you want for missions that have consequence.
在thenorthface.com发现专为带你达到新高度的装备。
Discover gear designed to take you to new heights at thenorthface.com.
Alex，关于Climbing Gold这个项目，我最喜欢的一点是，当我们做故事或深度挖掘时，我们找到了原始版本。
Alex, one of my favorite things about Climbing Gold, this this project, is when we do a a story or a deep dive and we find the original.
你是什么意思？
What what do you mean?
你看，我们这项运动其实历史并不长。
Like, our sport isn't all that old.
在过去的七十年里，它发展得很快，变化也很大。
It's gained a lot of momentum and a lot of changes in the last seventy years.
对吧？
Right?
而且很多我们现在习以为常的东西，作为现代攀岩者，我们根本不会去想。
And a lot of what we take for granted as modern climbers, like, we don't even think about.
比如，我们真的不会去想，为什么我们要用镁粉？
Like, we don't really, like, think about, like, why do we use chalk?
你走进一家攀岩馆，他们会卖四种不同的镁粉。
You walk into a gym and they're they sell four types of different chalk.
这完全是无处不在的。
It's completely ubiquitous.
但当你回头去看，去研究，你就能找到最初的那个源头。
But when you go back and when you look, you can find the original.
就像，有一个最初的发起人，他想到一个主意，说粉笔对攀岩者会有帮助，然后他们就去做了。
There is, like, the patient zero that came up with an idea that said something like chalk would be helpful to climbers, and they went and did it.
我想在这种情况下，那就是约翰·吉尔，他也发明了动态移动和抱石，基本上把体操带进了攀岩。
I guess in that case, that's John Gill who also invented dynamic movement and bouldering and basically brought gymnastics into rock climbing.
对。
Yeah.
想想还挺不可思议的。
Which is pretty wild when you think about it.
而且，去年我们有约翰·巴克的旧录音，他在讲训练和攀岩的最初阶段，听到那些真的很酷，因为在我们这项运动的每一个元素背后，都有人为了解决攀岩需求而想办法。
And and, like, last year, we had the old recordings from John Bakker, and he was talking about the very beginnings of training and climbing, which was really cool to hear because, like, behind every single element in our craft, someone had to problem solve to find a solution to a climbing need.
听着，我给你举个例子，亚历克斯。
Look, I'll give you an example, Alex.
比如，如果你的目标是在美国不同的地形上尽可能多地攀爬，那解决方案是什么？
Like, if your goal is to climb as much as possible across the different landscapes in America, what is the solve for that?
嗯，我想我在某种程度上经历过。
Well, I mean, I guess I lived it to some extent.
你从大学退学，住在车里，到处旅行，基本上不花钱，生活过得很省，能蹭就蹭，然后你就成了一个流浪攀岩者。
You drop out of college, you live in your car, you travel, you, you basically don't spend any money, you live cheap, you try to scrounge how you can, and you just, you become a dirtbag climber.
对。
Yeah.
而且这个想法，基本上就是流浪攀岩者的概念，是有人发明的，或者更准确地说，是一对夫妇发明的。
And that idea, essentially the idea of the dirtbag, someone invented that, or I should say a couple invented that.
很少有人听说过赫伯和简·康恩。
Few people have heard of Herb and Jan Conn.
他们不像弗雷德·贝基那样多产，但他们对这项运动的投入同样影响深远。
They were never as prolific as someone like Fred Becky, but their commitment to the sport was every bit as influential.
二战后的几年里，康恩夫妇脱离了主流社会，搬进了他们的车里，开始在全国各地开辟大胆的首攀路线。
In the years following World War two, the Conn's dropped out of mainstream society, moved into their car, and started establishing bold first ascents across the country.
从某种意义上说，他们是最早的房车生活者。
In a way, they were the original van lifers.
他们拍摄了最早的攀岩电影之一。
They made some of the first climbing films.
他们写歌、录歌，唱关于攀岩的歌，还写文章讲述他们那种截然不同的生活方式。
They wrote and recorded songs about climbing and wrote articles about their very different approach to life.
当美国一部分人忙着买电视、买微波炉、组建核心家庭的时候，简和赫伯却在践行一种反主流文化的理念，追求体验而不是舒适。
While some of America was busy buying TVs and microwaves and starting nuclear families, Jan and Herb were living a countercultural idea, chasing experiences instead of comfort.
那种追求瞬间、追求攀登、追求体验的想法，正是我们这项运动精神的核心。
And that idea of, like, chasing moments, chasing climbs, chasing experiences, that is the backbone of our sports ethos.
但是康恩夫妇虽然帮助定义了这种精神，却几乎从攀岩界的记忆中消失了，直到两位电影制作人决定在新片《捡松果》中把他们的故事搬上银幕。
But the Conn's, despite sort of helping define that, they almost disappeared from Climbing's conscious until two filmmakers set out to bring their story to life in the new film Catching Pinecones.
赫伯和简已经去世了，但我们很兴奋能分享这些跨越几十年的简的采访片段，这些片段由电影制作人查德·赫德尔森和帕克·米歇尔斯-博伊斯收集整理。
Herb and Jan passed away, but we're psyched to share the interviews with Jan captured through the decades and gathered up by filmmakers Chad Heddleston and Parker Michels-Boyce.
这是一次对两种完全按照自己意愿生活的人生的精彩呈现。
This is an incredible look at two lives lived decidedly on their own terms.
我是亚历克斯·阿诺德。
I'm Alex Arnold.
我是菲茨·卡哈尔。
I'm Fitz Cahall.
这里是《攀登黄金》。
This is Climbing Gold.
我们需要告诉观众你是谁。
We need to tell the viewer who you are.
好的。
Okay.
那么，你是谁？
So so who are you?
什么？
What?
那么，你是谁？
So so who are you?
哦，我是谁？
Oh, who am I?
嗯，我是简·康恩。
Well, I'm Jan Conn.
我一直觉得自己在正常世界里是个异类，但我找到了一个属于异类的地方，看来就是这里。
I've always been a misfit in the normal world, but I found a place for misfits, and it seems to be here.
你小时候想成为什么样的人？
What did you wanna be when you grew up?
小孩。
A kid.
我觉得我做到了。
I think I succeeded.
我觉得我们其实从来没有真正长大过。
I don't think we ever really grew up.
看着对Jan Conn的这段采访，很难不被她吸引。
It's hard not to look at this interview with Jan Conn and immediately be drawn in.
她的眼睛闪闪发光，你会相信眼前这位90岁的老太太可能真的从未长大。
Her eyes twinkle and blaze, and you buy that maybe this 90 year old woman in front of us never really grew up.
她露出一个狡黠的微笑，专注地看着镜头后面的Heddleston。
She flashes a wry smile and looks intently towards the person behind the camera, Heddleston.
他问的是简六十年前的一个时刻。
He's asking about a moment six decades earlier in Jan's life.
那个时刻我们很多人都能感同身受——人生中第一次，你完成了学业，不再是任何人的责任，你必须自己决定如何度过时间。
A moment a lot of us can relate to where for the first time in your life, you're done with school, you're no one's responsibility, and you've got to figure out what to do with your time.
我们想爬遍眼前所有能爬的东西。
We want to climb everything there was in sight.
头几年，我们住在一辆小货车里，环游全国去攀岩。
And for the first few years, we lived in a little panel truck and toured the whole country climbing.
需要挣钱的时候，我们就一起找工作，我们觉得两个人每年工作六个月，和一个人工作十二个月养家一样好。
And when we had to get work, we'd both get work, and we figured two people working six months a year is just as good as one person working 12 to support a family.
如果我们找到一份正经工作，我们总想尽快脱身。
If we got a responsible job, we wanted to get out of it as soon as we could.
我们当时真没觉得能靠那种方式过下去，但好像还真行。
We didn't really think that we could possibly get along living that way, but we seemed to.
我不知道，我们就是喜欢户外，而且我们不在乎大多数人似乎在乎的东西。
I don't know, we liked the outdoors, and we didn't care about what most people seem to care about.
所以我们到哪里都格格不入。
So we didn't fit in anywhere.
咱们先说说你们叫什么名字吧？
Let's just start with what are your guys' names?
你们是做什么的？
What do you guys do?
我是Chad Heddleston。
I'm Chad Heddleston.
我是Catching Pinecones的导演，也是社区大学的协调员，还是个攀岩爱好者，一个顾家的男人。
I'm the director of Catching Pinecones and coordinator at a community college, rock climber, family man.
我是Parker Michels-Boyce。
I'm Parker Michels-Boyce.
我是弗吉尼亚州里士满的一名自由摄影师，偶尔也做摄像。
I'm a freelance photographer and sometimes videographer in Richmond, Virginia.
Catching Pinecones是我作为摄影指导参与的第一部长篇纪录片，我也是联合剪辑之一。
Catching Pinecones was my first feature length documentary film as a director of photography and, one of the co editors.
不错。
Cool.
那跟我说说，Catching Pinecones 是什么？
So tell me, what is Catching Pinecones?
这是 Jan 和 Herb Conn 的真实人生故事，他们是美国传奇攀岩者，以自己的方式实现了美国梦。
It's a true life story of Jan and Herb Conn, legendary American climbers who live the American dream in their own way.
他们就是那种特别了不起的流浪攀岩者。
They were just phenomenal dirt bags.
他们开创了这种流浪攀岩的生活方式，为我们这些后来的攀岩者铺了路。
They kicked off the whole dirtbag lifestyle thing and kind of led the way for the rest of us rock climbers.
Jan 是在南达科他州的家里接受我们采访的。
Jan, we interviewed while she was at home in South Dakota.
她当时96岁，真是个有趣的人。
She was 96 and she's just such a character.
她特别机智。
She's super witty.
她当然有很多精彩的故事，而且你很容易就会喜欢上她。
She's got tons of great stories, obviously, and, it's just so easy to fall in love with her.
所以我们很期待有更多人能认识她。
So we were excited for for more people to get to meet her.
对。
Yeah.
所以，你说他们是传奇的美国攀岩者，但大多数人可能都没听说过Jan和Herb Conn。
So, I mean, you said, legendary American climber zine, yet most people have probably never heard of Jan and Herb Conn.
给我讲讲他们的传奇故事吧。
Like, tell me about the legend.
你们是怎么听说他的，又是什么引起了你们的兴趣？
How did you guys hear about him, and and what drew your interest?
我是先通过攀岩听说他的，在很多指南书里看到他们的名字。
So I heard about him first, just climbing, finding their name in a bunch of guidebooks.
我就想，这些Conn夫妇是谁啊？
It's like, who are these con people?
比如说，为什么塞内卡岩的康氏东线和康氏西线会叫这个名字？
Like, why is Conn's East, Conn's West at Seneca Rocks named that?
你知道吗？
You know?
为什么我刚开始爬传统路线的地方，到处都能看到他们的名字？
Why are these people popping up in all the places where I'm doing my first trad routes?
你知道吗？
You know?
我越深入了解他们，就越对他们的故事感到兴奋。
The more I dig into it, the more I find out about them, the more psyched I am on their story.
但他们后来好像就消失了，而且年纪也很大了。
But they kind of just disappeared and they got really old.
多年后我们重新提起这件事，才发现，天哪，简还活着。
Now we picked it up years later and we're like, Man, Jan is still alive.
她依然是个很酷的女士。
She's still a cool lady.
我们去找她聊聊吧。
Let's go hang out with her and talk to her.
而且他是个表演者，所以她马上就投入进去了。
And he was a performer, so she just dove right in.
你是离开家跟父母一起住的吗？
Did you leave home with your parents?
其实，我想是我上大学的时候。
Actually, I guess when I went to college.
高中毕业后我隔了一年才去上大学，为了攒钱，因为我想主修音乐，但我觉得那不太靠谱。
I stayed out a year after high school to get money to start college because I wanted to major in music, and I didn't think that was a sensible thing to do.
所以我想最好自己付学费。
So I I thought I better pay for it myself.
赫伯说科罗拉多大学博尔德分校是唯一该去的地方。
Herb said the University of Colorado was the only place to go in Boulder.
所以我就去了那里。
So that's where I went.
攀岩和这个有关系吗？
Did rock climbing have anything to do with that?
嗯，可能吧。
Well, probably.
虽然我在那里的时候没怎么攀岩。
Although I didn't do much rock climbing while I was there.
我连登山俱乐部都没加入。
I didn't even join the hiking club.
我对人的反应就是躲开。
My reaction to people is to get away.
当我一个人的时候，我很放松，也过得很好。
When I'm away, I'm relaxed and and do fine.
但如果你开始把我挤进去，我不知道。
But if you start to squeeze me in, I don't know.
那就不行了。
It doesn't work.
对彼此的爱和对孤独之地的向往，定义了他们的选择。
That love for each other and the solitary places would define the cons.
在博尔德的日子，反而让他们更加确信，自己追求的东西存在于这个国家偏远的角落，远离聚光灯，远离主流。
If anything, their time at Boulder cemented the idea that they were chasing something that existed out in the remote corners of our country, far from the spotlight, far from the mainstream.
我在大一那年中途就结婚了，这当然是不该做的事。
I got married in the middle of my freshman year, and which, of course, you aren't supposed to do.
赫伯当时在工作。
Herb was working.
他是个好孩子。
He was a good little boy.
他心思总是飘忽不定，但他表现很好，从科罗拉多大学博尔德分校电气工程专业毕业了。
His mind was just everywhere, but he behaved himself and graduated from the University of Colorado in Boulder in electrical engineering.
他学工程是因为喜欢数学，但他其实从来不想当工程师。
He took engineering because he liked math, but he didn't ever really wanna be an engineer.
我觉得，他不想成为任何他已知的存在。
He didn't wanna be anything that he knew existed, I think.
那一年我读完了，然后我回到了华盛顿特区，赫布在那里为海军部当电气工程师。
And I finished that year, and then I went back to Washington, DC where Herb was working as an electrical engineer for the Navy Department.
那时候是第二次世界大战期间，我们每天都在数着日子，盼着战争结束，好去做我们想做的事。
This was during the Second World War, and we were just counting the days until the war was over so that we could do our thing.
康恩夫妇在华盛顿特区过得非常充实，他们融入了一个小小的攀岩和徒步爱好者圈子。卡特岩，就在华盛顿特区郊外的一处小岩壁，是当时的热门去处。
The Conn's made the most of their time in DC, Falling into a small community of climbers and hikers, Carter Rock, the small crag just outside of Washington DC was the place to be.
康恩夫妇开始大展身手。
And the Conn's went to work.
他们开辟了“赫比的恐怖”这条路线，这是全国最早的5.9难度路线之一。
They established Herbie's Horror, one of the first five nines in the country.
他们还去了塞内卡岩，创办了可能是全国第一本攀岩杂志，通过波托马克阿巴拉契亚步道俱乐部发行。
They ventured up to Seneca Rocks and created what might be the first climbing magazine in the country, up rope through the Potomac Appalachian Trail Club.
战争结束了，赫布从海军退役，简和赫布踏上了可能是美国第一次的攀岩公路旅行。
The war ended, Herb was free from the Navy, and Jan and Herb set out on what was likely the first American climbing road trip.
休息之后，我们马上回来，继续更多精彩内容。
We'll be back with more after the break.
亚历克斯，我知道琼喜欢，甚至可以说，爱华夫饼。
Alex, I know that June likes, dare I say, loves waffles.
今天早上在去机场的路上，我女儿们吃了华夫饼。
She my girls ate waffles this morning on the way to the airport.
你是不是直接把华夫饼递给她们，然后说，快上车，孩子们。
Did you just hand them to like, they're like, get in the car kits.
这是华夫饼，然后她们就准备好了？
Here's the waffle, and they're good to go?
嗯，很多时候，女儿们会直接从冰箱里拿出冷冻华夫饼，然后……
Well, a lot of the time, the girls just get into the freezer and just pull the frozen waffles out of the drawer and
搞定。
Make it happen.
太棒了。
It's awesome.
Kodiak的Power Waffles有好几种口味，包括蓝莓味，这是我们家的最爱。
Kodiak's Power Waffles have a few flavors, including blueberry, which is a favorite in our house.
Power Waffles 是用100%全谷物做的，富含蛋白质，但依然很方便，只要烤面包机需要多长时间，它们就能准备好。
The Power Waffles are made with a 100% whole grains and are protein packed, but they still have the convenience of being ready to eat in as long as the toaster takes.
几分钟。
Minutes.
这非常适合快速把早餐端上桌，然后出门。
Which is perfect for getting breakfast on the table fast and getting out the door.
用富含蛋白质的早餐让你的小淘气们保持活力，让他们在重要日子里精力充沛。
Keep your wild ones going with a protein packed breakfast that will keep them fueled for big days.
在当地杂货店的冷冻区找到 Kodiak Power Waffles。
Find Kodiak Power Waffles in the freezer aisle at your local grocery store.
就是盒子上有熊的那个。
They're the ones with the bear on the box.
更多信息请访问 kodiakcakes.com。
Learn more at kodiakcakes.com.
你们现在有夏日最爱听的歌吗？
Do you guys have a summer jam right now?
比如说，女孩们现在有没有在单曲循环什么歌？
Like, are the girls listening to something on repeat?
女孩们肯定一直在单曲循环一些歌。
The girls are definitely listening to things on repeat all the time.
基本上就是儿童电影里的音乐。
Basically, kids movie music.
我喜欢的歌嘛，还是那些我从小到大一直听的摇滚乐。
My jam is a little more, you know, all the same rock I've listened to my whole life.
对。
Yeah.
女孩们对你的音乐感觉怎么样？
How do the girls feel about your music?
其实，女孩们现在也开始喜欢我的音乐了，因为现在我们用Turtlebox放歌的时候会轮流来。
Actually, the girls are getting into my music because now we take turns whenever we're rocking the Turtlebox.
她们放一首，我放一首。
They get a song, I get a song.
所以，你知道，她们是在《冰雪奇缘》和工具乐队的音乐中长大的。
And so, you know, they're growing up on on Frozen and, Tool.
冠军的早餐。
Breakfast of champions.
无论你喜欢什么音乐，Turtlebox 的便携式 Ranger 音箱都能完美陪伴你度过夏天的任何时光。
Whatever your music preference, Turtlebox makes the portable ranger speaker perfect for wherever summer might take you.
对。
Yeah.
便携式 Ranger 音箱非常适合在露台上放松时使用。
The portable ranger speaker is great for hanging out on the deck.
我经常在车库里用它。
I I use it in the garage all the time.
基本上，在车库里训练就是我们的方式。
Basically, training in the in the garage is kind of the way.
它轻便、紧凑、耐用，而且连接起来超级简单，我觉得这真的很重要，因为设备连不上音箱的时候真的让人抓狂。
It's lightweight, compact, durable, and it's super easy to connect to, which I think is actually really important because it's freaking annoying when you can't sync your device.
确实。
Truth.
Turtlebox专为户外设计，推出了一系列耐用便携的蓝牙音箱，尺寸多样，让你随时随地享受音乐。
Designed for the outdoors, Turtlebox makes durable and portable Bluetooth speakers in a range of sizes so you can take your music anywhere.
更多信息请访问turtleboxaudio.com。
Find out more at turtlebox audio dot com.
我们当时有一辆小货车，那时候没人有房车。
We had a little panel truck, and nobody had RVs in those days.
不知道他们当时是怎么想的。
I don't know what was the matter with them.
这是Herb的一段采访录音。
Here's Herb from an archived interview.
我们有架子、床、柜子和书桌。
We had shelves and a bed and cabinets and a desk.
我们买的第一辆太小了，只能睡在地板上，所有架子都得挂在天花板上。
First one we got was so small that we could just sleep in the floor and all the shelves had to hang from the ceiling.
你上床的时候，感觉就像爬进棺材里一样，因为架子就在你鼻子正上方。
You kind of felt like you were crawling into a coffin when you got into bed because the shells were right over your nose.
就像你说的，我们一路开车到了加州，后来他姐姐在卡塔丁度假，所以我们就开着车横穿整个国家，去和她还有她丈夫一起度假。
Traveled, as you said, out to California and then his sister was vacationing at Katahdin, so we trucked all the way across the country to have a vacation with her and her husband.
那之后，我们就冬天工作，夏天爬山，在新罕布什尔州的一家木工店干过些奇怪的活儿，周末就去爬山。
Then after that, we just kind of we tried to work in the winter and climb in the summers and we had strange jobs, working in a wood shop up in New Hampshire, and we climbed on weekends.
要是看到哪儿有凸起的东西，我们就想去找出来爬上去。
If we saw something sticking up somewhere around, we try to hunt it up and climb it.
我们在科罗拉多州博尔德附近爬过山，因为赫伯在那儿上过学，熟悉那一带。
We climbed down in Colorado around the Boulder area because Herb knew that from having been to school there.
我们就是享受做自己，这是很多人做不到的。
We just enjoyed being ourselves, which a lot of people don't know how to do.
我觉得他们这种天性都被扼杀了。
I think they get it stomped out of them.
我们喜欢透过挡风玻璃看看外面有什么，但更愿意亲自去体验一下。
We'd like to look out the windshield and see what what was there, but we would much rather come to grips with it firsthand.
我们停下来，走出去，和这个世界有了接触，开车的感觉就好多了。
We felt a lot better about driving when we stopped and got out and had contact with the world.
而且我们四处走动的时候，也是这么做的。
And we also we did that when we were working our way around.
我们会停下来找个工作，认识当地人，熟悉那个地方，这似乎是个不错的办法。
We'd stop and get a job and get to know the people and get to know the area, which seemed a good way to do it.
这就是康恩夫妇多年来生活的样子。
This is how the Conn's lived for many years.
作为外来者、流浪者、充满热情的攀登者，他们在美国各地开辟攀登路线。
Outsiders, vagabonds, passionate climbers, establishing climbs across America.
他们的兴趣不仅仅在于攀登，还在于其他许多热爱的事情。
Their interests lay not only in climbing, but in a range of other passions as well.
赫布是一位专注的数学家，而简会演奏几十种乐器，还会写歌。
Herb was a dedicated mathematician, and Jan played dozens of instruments and wrote songs.
坠落。
Falling.
我在坠落。
I'm falling.
我在坠落。
I'm falling.
他们很早就完成了在坎农崖、圣卡塔利娜山脉、纪念碑谷和锡安国家公园的首攀。
They established early first ascents at Cannon Cliff, the Santa Catalina Mountains, Monument Valley, and Zion National Park.
他们穿着网球鞋攀岩。
They climbed in tennis shoes.
想想匡威帆布鞋。
Think Chuck Taylors.
他们把绳子系在腰上，偶尔用岩钉保护根部。
They tied ropes around their waist and protected roots with the occasional piton.
在他们活跃的那个年代，你知道，有一些全国性的攀岩杂志。
At the time that they were active, you know, there were these kind of national climbing journals.
有《顶峰》杂志、《阿巴拉契亚》杂志。
There was Summit Magazine, Appalachia Magazine.
所以他们提交了一些不同的记录，比如他们的一些冒险、攀登和首登的文档。
And so they were submitting some different, like, documentation of of some of their adventures and climbs and first ascents.
而且关于他们当时做的那些事，有一些非常酷的记载，你读的时候会忍不住想，天哪。
And there's some really cool accounts of all the stuff that they did back then and and stuff that you read and you're just like, holy crap.
那是什么？
What was it?
新罕布什尔州的坎农山？
Cannon in New Hampshire?
比如那个的记载，他们就是坐大巴过去，然后直接爬了。
Like, the account of that one, they just, like, took a bus and went up there and did it.
他们甚至不知道自己爬的是一条新路线，因为他们连其他路线在哪里都不知道。
And they didn't even know that they were doing a new route because they didn't even know where the other routes were.
我爬过一百座山。
I climbed 100 mountains.
有蜂蜜
There's honey
你们花了多长时间找到这些资源，然后拍成这部电影的？
How long did it take you guys to track down all these resources and and to make this film?
就是，你们花了多久
Like, how long were you
做这部电影？十年。
guys working on the Ten ten years.
你们花了十年时间拍这部电影？
You spent ten years working on the film?
是的。
Yeah.
好吧。
Alright.
天哪。
Jesus.
所以我出去了，不。
So I went out no.
我2015年去南达科他州见了简。
I went to South Dakota to meet Jan in 2015.
现在已经是2026年了。
It's now 2026.
好的。
Okay.
我们反复做了很多次研究，但还是有很多未解之谜。
We did all the research many times over, and there's still many rabbit holes.
所以你投入了十年时间，还在解决一些小问题。
So you put ten years of work into it, and you're still looking to solve little problems.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
For sure.
比如，去弄清楚一些事情。
Like, to to to figure some things out.
那真是太疯狂了。
That is crazy.
有一次他们上了《猜职业》节目。
There's the time they were on the What's My Line show.
赫布·康恩在六十年代初的时候，作为电视节目嘉宾出现在纽约的《猜职业》上。
Herb Conn was on What's My Line in New York City as a TV show, like, in their early sixties.
如果有人找到那一集，请发给我们，因为那集好像已经不存在了。
And if anybody finds that episode, send it to us because it doesn't exist apparently.
我
I
觉得大概是2023年左右。
think it was around 2023.
所以查德在2020年给我打电话，说，嘿，兄弟。
So Chad called me in 2020 and was like, hey, man.
我有个项目。
I've got this this project.
我本来以为这会是个短片，打算放到YouTube上，但后来它变得越来越大，我真的想把它做好。
I thought it was gonna be, like, a short film that I was gonna throw on YouTube, but it's just become, like, such a bigger deal, and I I really wanna do it right.
所以他在2020年左右给我打电话，说，嘿。
And so he he called me in about 2020 and and was like, hey.
你想不想和我一起做这部电影？
Do you do you wanna work on this film with me?
你知道，我觉得它挺有潜力的。
And, you know, I think it's it's got some potential.
他跟我讲了这件事，在那之前我从来没听说过康恩夫妇。
And he told me about it and immediately I I had never heard of The Conn's before that conversation.
但我立刻就被吸引住了，而且我意识到，作为一名记者，你知道，我的背景是新闻摄影。
But immediately I was I was pretty hooked and I realized, like, as a journalist, you know, about my background's in photojournalism.
我就觉得，这种故事真的不常遇到。
I was like, this is one of those stories that just doesn't come along very often.
一旦遇到了，你真的得抓住机会，因为它值得被讲述。
And and when it does, like, you really have to jump on it because it's it's worth telling.
我们大概去了南达科他州八到十趟，做采访、拍攀岩什么的。
I think we did probably eight or 10 trips to South Dakota to do interviews and and film climbing and all that.
当我们开始接触一些人，做一些研究，找出她的一些朋友是谁，安排采访的时候，我们就在想，我们两个东海岸来的家伙，凭什么来做这个纪录片？
When we were, starting to meet people and and, you know, do some research on this and, you know, find out who some of her friends were and and schedule some interviews, you know, we were asking ourselves, like, who are we two guys from the East Coast to do this documentary?
为什么是我们来接手这个故事？
Like, why are we the ones to to pick this story up?
我们也在想，是不是有更合适的人，比如认识她的人，应该来讲这个故事？
We wondered, like, is there someone better who knew her that should be telling the story?
但我们越问，越了解她的一些朋友，大家就说，总得有人来做这件事。
But the more we asked around and the more we got to know some of her friends, people just said, like, somebody needs to do this.
我们很高兴你们来了。
We're so glad you're here.
趁着还有时间，还有那么多信息在，我们真的希望他们的故事能流传下去。
Like, please, you know, while there's still time and while there's so much information out there, like, we really want their story to to endure.
是的。
Yes.
他们几乎就像是攀岩界的原始黑马。
It's almost like they're the original dark horses of climbing.
还是说，他们只是比我成长过程中听说的那些攀岩故事更早？
Or or is it just that they predated all the climbing stories that I grew up with?
我的意思是，因为他们活跃在攀岩界的时间太早了，几乎可以说是在攀岩历史开始之前。
I mean, because it seems like they were active in climbing so long ago that it's almost like before the history of climbing started practically.
对。
Yeah.
我完全觉得两者都有。
Totally think it was both.
还是说
Or is the
我不了解那些路线，是不是因为我在西海岸长大，所以没看过所有的路线？
fact that I just don't know the cons, is that just because I grew up on the West Coast and I just haven't seen all the routes?
我的意思是，如果我是东海岸的攀岩者，我会知道他们所有的路线吗？
I mean, like, if I if I was an East Coast climber, would I know all their routes?
你是研究攀岩历史的人，所以你大概会知道他们。
You're a history of climbing person, so you would probably know them.
如果你是在我长大的地方长大的，你肯定会认识他们。
If you grew up where I grew up, you would definitely know them.
那明确一下，他们最活跃是在哪几年？
And just to be clear, which years were they most active?
我是说，他们一辈子都在攀岩，但他们的鼎盛时期大概是什么时候？
I mean, they climbed their whole lives, but but when what was kind of like their heyday?
从41年开始，他们在47年到了优胜美地，那也是他们第一次经过南达科他州。
So '41 to they were in Yosemite in '47, and that was when they first also came through South Dakota.
然后他们在49年搬到了南达科他州。
And then they moved to South Dakota in '49.
哇。
Wow.
然后他们作为攀岩者一直活跃到大概59年，那才是他们的鼎盛时期。
And then they were active as climbers until really only, like, '59, like, in their heyday heyday.
至于为什么他们的故事不为人知，我觉得，你知道，他们活跃的时候正是攀岩刚刚开始成为一项独立运动的时候。
As as far as, like, why is their story not known, I think, you know, they were active right at the dawn of rock climbing as, like, an established kind of its own sport activity.
你懂吗？
You know?
我是说，我和Chad聊过很多次这个问题。
I mean, a lot of people Chad and I have talked about this quite a bit.
那时候很多人都在做登山运动，攀岩只是其中的一部分。
Like, a lot of people back then were mountaineering, rock climbing was part of it.
在我们看来，Jan和Herb好像真的就是，你知道，我们就是喜欢攀岩这部分。
And, it seems to us, like, Jan and Herb really were like, know, we just we just like the rock climbing part.
我们就打算专心做这个。
We're just gonna do that.
我有点惊讶，哇。
I'm sort of like, woah.
我都不知道当时还有真正的攀岩活动在进行。
Like, I didn't even know there was, you know, real climbing effort going on.
其实我多少知道一点，因为在那之前优胜美地已经有一些攀岩活动了。
I mean, I guess I knew a tiny bit because there was a little bit in Yosemite before that.
但是——
But
我有一本关于优胜美地五十年代黄金时代的书，里面就……嗯，怎么说呢。
I've got the fifties Golden Age of Yosemite book, and it's like Mhmm.
那本书里好像就提到一位女性。
There's like one woman in that book.
而且我觉得那两张照片里是同一个人。
And I think she's the same woman in two different pictures.
简做了那么多事，而且那些都是女性首次登顶。
Jan did all this stuff, and like, they were all first female ascents.
首次登顶。
First ascents.
对。
Right.
她只是把它们叫做首攀。
She just called them first ascents.
对，两者都是。
Yeah, they were both.
他们只是因为热爱才去做的。
They just did it because they loved it.
所以并不是为了记录细节。
And so it was not about tracking the details.
我觉得他们大多在某种程度上，在日记里记了一些。
I think they did mostly to some extent, in their journals.
所以有很多信息。
And so there is a lot of information.
有一本指南书，是关于赫布和简·康在南达科他州的冒险攀登的，大概是2008年左右写的。
There was a guidebook written about the adventure climbs of Herb and Jan Conn in South Dakota in two thousand o eight or something.
而且里面只有他们的路线。
And it's just only their routes.
那些都是直接从我们的日记里摘出来的。
And that was all journal entries just pulled from our journals.
所以他们确实记录了，但他们也没想着要分享。
So they did track it, but they also weren't trying to share.
那时候，说到攀岩，有几个成就在攀岩者的履历上特别亮眼。
At that moment, when it came to rock climbing, there were a few features that stood out on a climber's resume.
其中之一就是怀俄明州的魔鬼塔。
Amongst them was Wyoming's Devil's Tower.
对简来说，她正在开辟一条新路。
For Jan, she was blazing a path.
美国很多攀岩俱乐部都有严格的规定，限制谁能领攀谁不能，而女性是不允许的。
Many of the climbing clubs across The US, they had strict rules about who could and couldn't lead, and a woman couldn't.
但在那些体制的束缚之外，简在领攀和开辟路线，和赫布完全平等。
Outside of the constraints of those systems though, Jan was leading and establishing routes, an equal in every way to Herb.
在魔鬼塔，简开始意识到她正在改变这个格局。
Devil's Tower was the moment that Jan began to understood that she was changing the narrative.
我觉得我们大概是第七个登顶的队伍。
I think we were only about this seventh ascent of people that had had climbed it.
对我来说这很重要，因为之前登顶的人里没有女性。
And it was a big deal for me because none of them had been women.
我们当时没太在意这个，但下来之后还是忍不住为自己感到骄傲。
And we didn't make too much of that, but still you can't help but feel kind of proud of yourself when you get back down.
在魔鬼塔那里，有一条小路绕着塔走。
And at Devil's Tower, there's this trail going right around the tower.
当然，人们一直在看着我们爬上去。
And of course, people had been seeing us up there.
他们都排在小路边，看着这些从魔鬼塔顶下来的奇怪生物。
And they they were all lined along the trail looking at these strange creatures that had come down from the top of Devil's Tower.
他们停下来跟我们说话，问我们问题，你知道，有个大胖子说，哎，这是怎么做到的？
And when they stop and talk to us and ask us questions, you know, one big fat slob says, Well, how does this work?
然后他对赫布说，你是从哪儿爬上去的，然后……
And he says to Herb, You climb up somewhere and
然后
then
把她拉上去。
pull her up.
当然，
And of course,
我当时没在意那个。
I wasn't sensed at that.
我爬上那里和赫伯一样辛苦。
I'd worked just as hard to get up there as Herb had.
赫伯当然很有耐心，解释了原理。
Herb was, of course, very patient and explained how it worked.
但我坐在那里生闷气，然后想，你知道吗，我想和一个根本不可能把我拉上去的人一起爬这座塔。
But I sat there and fumed and then thought, You know, I think I want to climb this tower with somebody that couldn't possibly pull me up.
我遇到了简·肖克，她是D区的攀岩者。
And I met Jane Showaker, who was a climber in the D.
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C。
C.
区。
Area.
她个子小，比我轻很多，可能稍微高一点，大概半英寸吧。
She was small, she was a lot lighter than I was, probably a speck taller, half an inch maybe.
也许她只有五英尺二。
Maybe she was five'two.
但她非常灵活强壮，很快大家就喜欢看她攀爬。
But she was very lithe and strong And it soon got where people like to watch her climb.
看一个攀爬高手真是赏心悦目。
It's great to watch somebody who is a good climber.
赫伯在下面听着所有的评论。
Herb was down below listening to all the comments.
有人付钱让他们做这个吗？
Somebody pay them to do that?
给我钱我也不干。
You couldn't pay me to do it.
我们在上面爬，爬完了，感觉很好，下来后我想，真希望那个说风凉话的家伙在这儿。
And we were up there climbing and we made our climb and we felt good about it and we came down and I thought, Gee, I wish that guy that made that crack was here.
但游客就是游客，那里游客很多。
But a tourist is a tourist and there were lots of tourists there.
最后，那个家伙看了我们一眼，转身对妻子说，他们都能爬，这攀岩肯定不怎么样。
Finally, this guy looks at us and turns to his wife as they start to walk away and says, It can't be much of a climb if they can do it.
所以，你攀岩不是为了给别人留下印象，也不是为了觉得自己应得的那份尊重。
So you don't climb for the impact you're going to make on people and the respect you think you deserve.
你攀岩是因为你想攀岩。
You climb because you want to climb.
这才是唯一站得住脚的理由。
And that's the only reason that's valid.
广告之后，我们马上回来。
We'll be back with more after the break.
你会不会饿到发脾气？
Do you get hangry?
我其实不太会饿到发脾气。
I don't really get hangry.
我今天连早饭都还没吃呢。
I haven't even had breakfast yet today.
那你状态还保持得这么好。
And you're still you're still on point.
是因为你不喜欢食物，还是因为你不喜欢味道？
Is it because you don't like food, or is it because or you don't like flavors?
不是。
Or No.
不是。
No.
我我我超爱美食的。
I I I love good food.
我喜欢食物的味道。
I like the taste of food.
我喜欢，你知道的，而且我特别爱吃甜食。
I like, you know and I have a major sweet tooth.
我爱吃甜点，但就是不喜欢逛街。
I love desserts, but I just don't I don't love shopping.
我不喜欢做饭。
I don't love cooking.
我不喜欢准备食物。
I don't love preparing food.
我讨厌事后收拾。
I I hate cleaning up afterward.
我讨厌收拾餐具。
I hate cleaning up the meals.
我讨厌一直打扫厨房。
I hate cleaning the kitchen all the time.
就是说，如果可以的话，我真想全都省了。
Just like, you know, I would just opt out of all of it if I could.
我觉得Factor的餐食就是为你设计的。
I feel like Factor meals were designed for you.
对。
Yeah.
我时间紧的时候，午餐肯定会来一份Factor的餐食。
When I have a crunch for time, I will definitely have a Factor meal for lunch.
Sonya经常吃这个。
Sonya eats them all the time.
他们每周有100道轮换的餐食，都是用全食物、瘦肉蛋白和蔬菜做的。
They have a 100 rotating weekly meals made with whole foods, lean protein, and vegetables.
他们不用精制糖或人工甜味剂。
They don't use refined sugars or artificial sweeteners.
基本上，做起来超级简单。
Basically, they're super easy to make.
你只需要加热一下就能吃了。
You just heat and enjoy.
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See the website for more details.
你有没有用咖啡因来撑过重要日子的习惯？
Do you ever use caffeine as one of the things to get you through big days?
我从来没有特意去摄入咖啡因，不过你知道的，我偶尔会在能量胶、运动食品里碰到它，我完全不排斥。
I have never really intentionally sought out caffeine necessarily, but, you know, I occasionally have it in in gels and goos and random sports products, and I'm definitely not opposed to it.
我的意思是，我知道它有用。
I mean, I know it helps.
对。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
LMNT出了个新口味，柠檬水冰茶。
LMNT's got a new flavor, lemonade iced tea.
里面含有红茶提取物。
It's got black tea extract.
好处是，这种咖啡因更像茶叶里的那种。
The benefit is that that caffeine is more like how it is in a tea plant.
它跟茶氨酸和多酚结合在一起，所以感觉更平稳。
It's bundled with L Theanine and Polyphenol, so it creates a steadier feeling.
不像有些能量胶那样，给你那种猛烈的咖啡因冲击。
It's not just like that crazy caffeine hit that you sometimes get out of gels.
其实我一直在喝LMNT的柠檬水冰茶，在Greg那儿，味道不错。
Actually, I have been drinking the the LMNT lemonade iced tea at the Greg and tastes good.
然后我，嗯，对。
And I Mhmm.
基本上，我觉得当你努力完成项目的时候，咖啡因肯定有帮助。
Basically, I assume that caffeine must help when you're trying to send your project.
但是，我是说，运动科学里有很多证据表明，只要不过量，咖啡因确实有助于提升表现。
But, I mean, there is a lot of evidence in in sort of sports science that caffeine helps performance as long as you don't overdo it.
所以，运动时摄入咖啡因真的没什么坏处，对。
And so there's really no harm in in having caffeine Yeah.
你知道，在锻炼的时候。
You know, during exercise.
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Get a free eight count sample pack of LMNT's most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase at drinklmnt.com/climbinggold.
网址是drinklmnt.com/climbinggold。
That's drinklmnt.com/climbinggold.
我刚看到Herb把拉什莫尔山上的总统脸都擦干净了。
I just saw that Herb cleaned the president's faces on Mount Rushmore.
我当时就想，这真的假的？
I was like, is that is that a thing?
这也太疯狂了。
Like, that's crazy.
这是故事的一个层面，一旦你开始深入了解，你就会想，等等。
It's one of the layers of the story that once you start digging in, you're like, wait.
什么？
What?
他们爬上了拉什莫尔山，这在之前或之后可能都没人做到过。
They climbed up Mount Rushmore, like, which has never been done before or after, probably.
你怎么爬拉什莫尔山？
How do you climb Mount Rushmore?
我是说，有手点吗？
I mean, are there holds?
在托马斯·杰斐逊的假发和乔治·华盛顿的鼻子之间。
Between Thomas Jefferson's wig and George Washington's nose.
我现在就去看张照片。
Gonna look at a picture right now.
我们电影里有这些镜头。
We have some of that in the film.
嗯，我们电影里确实有这个故事。
Well, we do have that story in the film.
他们为最初创办的那本小刊物写了这件事。
They wrote about it for the little publication that they first started.
他们找了个借口上去拍照，公园管理员也同意了，说需要一些特写镜头。
They had this excuse to go up and take pictures that the park ranger was kind of like, Well, yeah, we we need some close ups.
然后他们就开始胡闹了。
And then they messed around.
他们从侧面爬上去，然后又翻过去，下来，到处转。
They went up the side, and then they went over and down and all around.
他们把白天的时间都耗光了，然后才开始爬真正的肩膀，就是乔治·华盛顿的肩膀，他们从中间上去，完成了攀登。
They burned all the daylight, and then they start up the actual shoulder, George George Washington's shoulder, and they go up between, and they do the ascent.
他们说有个地方很棘手，可能挺难的。
They have a ticklish spot, they said, which was hard, probably.
对。
Yeah.
看起来有点大胆，像是绕着头发和耳朵转了一圈。
It looks like a little bold, like, going around, like, the the hair and the ear.
我拿着照片近距离看，心里想，对，确实。
I'm looking at it close-up with a photo, and I'm sort of like, yeah.
我想我看到了那条线。
Guess I see the line.
但我觉得，那真是太酷了。
But I'm like, that's freaking awesome.
我当时就想，这也太棒了。
I was like, that's so cool.
他们爬上去的时候，天空中的阳光已经太暗了，拍不到他们原本想拍的照片。
They get up, and, like, the sun is too dim in the sky to get the pictures that they originally went out for.
所以那还挺搞笑的。
So that was funny.
亚历克斯，你可以再来一次第二次攀登。
You could do the second ascent, Alex.
肯定会有人希望你去做这件事的。
Somebody would want you to do that.
对。
Yeah.
我会把这件事记在心里的。
I'll I'll keep that on the back part of it.
不过，如果时机成熟的话，我会去做的。
This is but if it ever comes together, I would do it.
在二十世纪四十年代末，康恩夫妇决定在他们早前去魔鬼塔和南达科他州针岩时发现的一个地方定居下来。
In the late nineteen forties, the Conn's decided to settle down in an area they had found earlier on a trip to Devil's Tower, The Needles Of South Dakota.
他们多年住在货车里、开着卡车穿越全国的日子可能已经结束了，但他们面前仍然有很多攀登、冒险和探索的机会。
Their years of living in a van and trucks and traveling across the country may have been over, but they still have plenty of climbing and adventure and exploration ahead of them.
而针岩地区正好满足了他们所有的需求。
And the Needles checked all the boxes.
那里攀登者不多，而且攀登资源无穷无尽。
There weren't many climbers, and there was an endless supply of climbing.
当我们发现这些尖峰时，我们觉得找到了一个可以让我们余生都在攀岩，而且总能找到新挑战的地方。
When we found these needles, we decided that we had found a place where we could climb the rest of our lives and still find something new to do.
所以我们围绕这个来安排生活。
So we build our life around that.
有趣的是，五十英尺的岩石
It's just funny how 50 feet of rock
就能让你整个夏天都忙个不停。
can keep you occupied all summer.
这是现在很多人常做的事。
That's something people do a lot these days.
他们现在管这叫“项目攀岩”。
They call it projecting now.
对。
Yeah.
项目攀岩。
Project climb.
就是一遍又一遍地重复，直到你完全掌握。
Where you do something over and over and over until you got it perfectly.
然后，然后你就让你的朋友去试。
Then Then you stick your friends on it.
然后你会说
And then you tell
告诉你的朋友这很简单。
your friends that it's easy.
你向他们展示这有多容易。
You show them how easily it can be done.
现在你给攀岩路线定了难度等级。
Now you rated Climbs.
你没有用优胜美地十进制系统。
You did not use the Yosemite decimal system.
我们没有定级。
We didn't rate them.
我是说，我们一直觉得挺奇怪的，人们怎么能给攀岩路线定级。
I mean, it's always been a kind of mystery to us how people can rate a climb.
这很大程度上取决于
So much depends on
你的心情、天气，还有
your mood, the weather, how
你有多累，但他们好像觉得你能定级。
tired you are, but they seem to think you can.
我们用“微妙”这个词，意思是你觉得随时可能滑下去，需要保护。
We used this term delicate, which meant that you thought you might slip off at any minute and you wanted this protection.
“微妙”这个词对我们来说挺合适的。
Deplicate seemed to do it for us.
最后他们定居在南达科他州。
This ultimately settled in South Dakota.
你们爬过一些路线了。
You guys have climbed some of the routes.
我是说，这些路线有什么风格吗？
I mean, is there a style to the routes?
比如，他们当时是怎么爬的？
Like, what what were they doing?
他们爬得很大胆，有点倾斜，而且只有岩钉保护。
They were bold, a little slabby, and they were only piton protected.
所以他们是无保护攀登？
So they were unprotected?
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Right.
所以，是的，那里有些岩点可以挂绳，但基本上就是靠信心攀登。
So, yeah, I mean, there's some knobs there that you can sling, but there's basically confidence climbing.
你知道，你在爬倾斜岩面，要清楚自己的能力，不行就撤退，他们就是这么做的。
You know, you're slab climbing and knowing what you're capable of and backing off, and that's what they did.
他们几乎所有的路线都是爬上去再爬下来的。
They they down climbed everything pretty much.
所以他们在首次攀登时，实际上就计划好了要边爬边往下撤。
So they literally were planning on down climbing as they were going up on their first ascent.
他们并不觉得自己很勇敢。
They didn't call themselves bold.
他们做了很多危险的事，但他们会轮流领攀。
They did a lot of heinous stuff, but they would pass off the lead.
一个人会退下来，另一个人上去，他们就这样慢慢来，然后下来，改天再去。
Would one would back off and the other would go up, and they would just kind of take their time and go down and come back another day.
他们这样坚持了好几年。
And they did that for years.
对。
Yeah.
在那十年到十二年里，他们几乎爬遍了南达科他州的所有路线，据他们自己统计，大约有两百三十次首攀。
And in that ten or twelve years that they were really climbing everything in South Dakota, they said that according to their counts, was about two hundred and thirty first ascents.
在
For
二十年的时间里，康恩夫妇默默开辟了数百条路线。
two decades, the Conn's quietly established hundreds of routes.
不过到了五十年代末，他们觉得攀岩圈在变化，开始变得太拥挤了，现在回想起来，这想法挺疯狂的。
By the end of the nineteen fifties though, they felt that the climbing scene was changing, starting to become too crowded, which looking back is wild to think about.
当时全国可能连一千个领攀者都不到。
There could have easily been less than a thousand climbers who were leading in the country.
康恩夫妇继续用他们的热爱充实生活。
The Khans continued to fill their lives with their passions.
有音乐，有数学。
There was music, there was math.
他们还迷上了洞穴探险，绘制了珠宝洞六十英里的地图，这项成就花了他们二十二年。
They got into caving, and they mapped 60 miles of Jewel Cave, a feat that took them twenty two years.
在这期间，他们断断续续地攀岩，而且总能想办法少工作，这样就有更多时间去做自己想做的事。
Through it all, they climbed off and on, and they always figured out how to work the least so they had the most time to do what they wanted to do.
1950年《峰会》杂志上有一篇康恩夫妇写的文章，标题是《我们在业余时间工作》，他们在里面说这其实就是简单的数学问题。
There's a nineteen fifty Summit article that The Conn's wrote that we work in our spare time where they say that it's a matter of simple math.
如果两个人各工作半年，那就等于一个人全年工作。
If two people work half the year, then it's the same as one person working year round.
但这其实也说明他们基本上是在拒绝整个美国梦，比如白色尖桩篱笆、核心家庭定居那一套。
But it kinda just shows that they were basically rejecting the whole American dream, like the white picket fence, the nuclear family settling.
他们是在选择，觉得业余时间做的事比工作更重要。
They were sort of choosing that what they did in their spare time was more important than than what they did for work.
这几乎可以说是反美国的，尤其是在二战后的那个年代。
That's almost un American, especially at the time, like, post World War two.
那时候到处都是典型的美国生活方式，白色尖桩篱笆什么的。
It's, like, full Americana white picket fences and everything.
我是说，他们是不是就像最早的嬉皮士、那种邋遢的攀岩者？
I mean, were they, like, the original hippies dirtbags, like, nicks?
那时候甚至有没有这种说法呢？
Was there even a term for it at the time?
我觉得他们从来不认为自己是激进分子。
I don't think they ever considered themselves radicals.
他们只是觉得自己在做真正想做的事。
They just considered themselves, like, doing what they truly wanted to do.
他们面对每个决定时都会想，为什么不这样做呢？
They looked at each decision and they were like, but why wouldn't we do it this way?
因为这样对我们来说更有趣。
Because that's more fun for us.
但那时候这似乎太违背常规了。
But that seems so contrary to the norm at the time.
确实是这样。
It it definitely was.
对。
Yeah.
我们在采访中也问过她这个问题。
We asked her in, you know, the interview too.
我们就问，那别人看到你们爬这些路线会怎么想？
We're like, so what did other people think of you climbing these routes?
如果他们开车带着家人度假，看到你们俩傻乎乎地站在塔尖上。
If they saw you up on a spire, they're driving through with their family on vacation, there's these two goofy people up on up on top of a tower.
而且简还以唱约德尔调出名。
And and Jan was also famous for yodeling.
她是个很有名的音乐家。
She was a huge musician.
所以你经常能听到约德尔调在山峰和石林间回荡。
So you you'd often hear just yodeling, bouncing off the spires through the needles.
她基本上就是说，我们不想知道。
And she just basically said, like, we we didn't wanna know.
我们不在乎。
We didn't care.
我们不想知道别人怎么想。
We didn't wanna know what they thought.
某种程度上，他们比时代超前了五十年，尤其是在攀岩和那种流浪生活方式上。
In a way, they're, you know, fifty years ahead of the time, like, in terms of climbing dirtbag and everything.
超前太多，以至于很难真正被理解。
Like, that's almost that's almost too far ahead of your time to ever really be appreciated.
对。
Yeah.
做这些你真正喜欢的事情，你有没有想过它们是美国梦的体现？
Doing these things that you really enjoyed, did you ever think of them as an example of the American dream?
我们只是跟着感觉走。
We were just following our noses.
我们没有什么宏大的想法，只是想远离那些不喜欢的东西。
We didn't we didn't have any grandiose ideas, just trying to back away from the things we didn't like.
有时候，知道自己不喜欢什么比知道自己喜欢什么更容易。
It's easier sometimes to know what you don't like than what you do.
有没有很多人说你是他们的榜样或者英雄，比如像我这样的人？
Have a lot of people said that you've been a role model or a hero to them, like people like me?
是的。
Yeah.
确实有不少人这么说，每次听到都觉得挺不可思议的，我也不知道为什么。
There've been quite a few and and it it always is just kind of amazing because I don't know.
有些事情你就是会去做，有些事情你就是不会去做。
It's it's in you to do some things and not others.
有很多事情我们本来可以尝试，但可能会失败，而我们找到的这些事情刚好适合我们。
There are lots of things we could have tried that we would have failed at, but what we found kind of suits us.
查德，你想聊聊“尖桩篱笆”吗？
Chad, do you want to talk about the picket fences?
哦，好的。
Oh, yeah.
在尼德尔斯有一片区域，风景最美，离人群最远，但交通还算方便。
So there is a range in The Needles that is the most scenic, and it's the furthest away from people that is still pretty easy access.
那个地方叫“尖桩岭”。
And it's called The Picket Range.
它叫尖桩岭的原因就是它看起来像一道尖桩篱笆。
And the reason it's called The Picket Range is it looks like a picket fence.
而且，也是因为简看了一眼就说，那是我唯一想要的尖桩篱笆。
But also, it's because Jan looked at it, and she was like, that's the only picket fence I want.
他们真的把那里的每条首攀路线都爬了个遍。
And they literally hit every single first ascent on it.
那里有一堆小石塔，都挺险的。
And it's a bunch of little towers, and they're pretty gnarly.
我是说，我们也爬过其中几座，比如邪恶尖桩、分裂尖桩，还有其他一些，简直就像——
I mean, we climbed a few of them, Wicked Pickett and Split Pickett and some others that are just like
镰刀峰？
The Sickle?
镰刀峰。
The Sickle.
对。
Yeah.
我是说，它们的难度评级不高，但五八级加上大量暴露感和糟糕的装备，还是挺吓人的。
I mean, they they don't have difficult ratings, but five eight with a lot of exposure with bad gear.
对。
Yeah.
而且绳子还——
With with a rope that
接不住坠落。
won't catch a fall.
对。
Yeah.
当你往下爬的时候，根本没有任何可能有人来救援。
When you're down climbing and there's, like, no possible case where anyone could rescue ever.
就像，几个月都没人能听到你的声音，你知道，那里根本没人。
Like, no one could hear you for months, you know, just there was nobody out there.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对。
Yeah.
现在想想都觉得不可思议，那些地方当时有多偏远，而他们就在那里不断挑战极限。
It's, like, inconceivable now just to think of how remote some of these places were while they were out there just pushing these limits.
说到在外面，你说他们曾经住在一个山洞里。
Speaking of being out there, I mean, you said they lived in a cave at some point.
那个山洞？
The concave?
那是怎么回事？
I mean, what what's that all about?
是不是比外面更偏远？
I mean, is that, like, even more out there?
其实也不是。
Not really.
离镇上倒是近一些，但离所有人都很远，而且非常安静，没有电，没有洗衣机，也没有自来水，因为……
I mean, it's closer to town, but it's far from everybody and very quiet and, no electricity and no washing machine and no running water because
我是说，他们真的住在那个洞穴里吗？
I mean, did did they actually live in the cave?
是的，他们确实拥有。
So they owned yeah.
他们买了20英亩的土地。
They bought 20 acres of land.
那他们那里应该有自来水吧？
They're presumably there is running water.
对吧？
Right?
因为那不是形成洞穴的原因吗？
Because isn't that what makes the cave?
从地质学角度来说？
In a geologic sense?
但这次不是这样。
Not in this case.
它叫康恩洞穴，但其实更像一个棚子。
It's called the Conn Cave, but it's it's more like a lean to.
它确实是被炸出来的，可能是某个时期勘探者用炸药炸的。
It was literally blasted, probably with prospectors dynamite at some point.
它就像一块太低的巨石，没法在上面攀爬，但被炸成了凹形。
And it's just It's like a boulder that's too low to boulder on, but it was blasted out in a concave shape.
然后他们就在那里住了一辈子，你知道，直到她97岁。
And then they lived there forever, like, you know, until she was 97.
而且大概只有30平方英尺，甚至更小。
And it's probably 30 square feet, if that
她在洞穴里住到97岁？
She lived in the cave until she was 97?
他们两个人一起在洞穴里住了六十多年，是的，没有电，也没有自来水。
The two of them lived together in the cave for over sixty years, yeah, with no electricity and no no running water.
天哪。
Dude.
你看，这就是为什么这个故事这么吸引人。
You see why this story is, like, so in in alluring.
你能跟我讲讲你们是怎么建康恩洞穴的吗？
Do you tell me a little bit about when you built the Conn Cave?
其实，我们本来想建一个小木屋。
Actually, we wanted to have a log cabin.
我们想着之前一直住在货车里。
And we figured we'd been living in a panel truck.
然后我们觉得需要一些工具。
And we figured we would need tools.
那工具放哪儿呢？
And where are we going to keep the tools?
后来我们决定，我们那块地上有个大概八英尺高的小悬崖。
And we decided that there was a little, low cliff about eight feet high on our property.
那个地方被炸过，我们就沿着炸开的边缘挖进去，然后砌了一面墙，弄成那种凹进去的形状。
And we it had been blasted, and we dug out to the edge of where it had been blasted and put a single wall around, kind of concave shape.
我们打算把它当工具棚用。
And we're going to use it for a tool shed.
但它看起来太舒服了，我们又太懒，就搭了个架子放床，直接搬进去了。
But it looked so comfortable and we were so lazy that we just built a shelf for the bed and moved in.
它很适合我们，就一扇门，一扇窗。
And it suited us, had one door, one window.
后来我们加了个天窗，挺好的，因为躺在床上就能看星星。
And we later put a skylight in, which was nice because you could lie in bed and look it up at the stars.
那生活其他方面呢？
What about in the rest of life?
从洞穴里出来，没有水洗澡，肯定很难受吧。
Was it it must have been hard to take a bath without water when you got out of the cave.
嗯，
Well,
你就用海绵擦洗一下。
you take a sponge bath.
其实我们通常都是脏兮兮地上床睡觉的。
Well, we usually went to bed dirty.
我们太累了，根本不想做那些事。
We were too tired to do anything like that.
你好像很喜欢做有挑战性的事情。
You seem to like to do challenging things.
是的，没错。
Well, yeah.
你和赫伯。
Herb and you.
不过有些事例外。
Except some things.
如果是我们想做的事，再难我们也不会放弃。
If it's something we want to do, we wouldn't stop because it's challenging.
但有些人似乎总是非得去尝试那些不可能的事。
But some people just seem to have to try something that's impossible all the time.
这真的太吸引人了。
It's like so alluring.
感觉这件事的每个方面都像童话一样，比如——
Like, there's every aspect of this thing felt like a fairy tale, like
那真是太不可思议了。
That's so crazy.
真的，大家都说他们像霍比特人，脸上挂着大大的笑容，又好玩又有音乐感，还做各种有趣的事情，他们确实就是那样。
It's truly like, people talked about them being, like, hobbit esque with, like, this big grin on their face and, like, fun and musical and, like, doing all these interesting things, and they truly were that way.
你走进那个凹洞，不可能不想象出比尔博·巴金斯从里面走出来的样子。
Like, you can't go into the concave and and not, like, picture, like, Bilbo Baggins, you know, coming out.
然后简带着大大的笑容蹦出来，说：嘿。
And Jan pops out with this big grin like, hey.
你好吗？
How you doing?
然后你就会觉得，这太棒了。
And you're like, this is amazing.
这居然是真的。
Like, this is actually real.
你希望观众从她的故事中得到什么？
What do you hope that that audiences take from her story?
或者你觉得简希望人们从这部电影中得到什么？
Or what do think that Jan hopes that people take from the film?
简希望大家能去做自己想做的事。
Jan hopes that people will do what they wanna do with their life.
简说过，如果你不喜欢某件事，就去改变它。
Like, Jan was like, if you don't like something, change it.
你可以直接把这和电影联系起来。
You can even relate this directly to the film.
当我们问她是否愿意接受采访，是否对参与这部电影感兴趣和开放时，她说，别因为我才做这件事。
When we were asking her if she was okay being interviewed and if she was, you know, interested and open to being part of this film, she said, like, well, just don't do it because of me.
如果这是你想做的事，那没问题，我不会阻止你，尽管她本来可以阻止的。
If it's something you wanna do, then that's fine, and I'm not gonna stop you even though she could have.
对。
Yeah.
虽然她是主角，但她有点像……
Even though she's the subject, she's kinda like
她的整个理念就是，如果你觉得某件事有趣、有意思，而且你被吸引去做，那它就有价值，所以你就应该去做。
Her whole philosophy is, like, if you think something's fun and interesting and if you're drawn to do something, then it has value and so you should do it.
他们就是这样生活的。
And that's how they lived their life.
我觉得她不喜欢给别人建议，但当你有了她那样的经历，你其实很难忍住不说。
And I think she didn't like giving advice, but when you've got the experiences that she has, you can't really help it.
所以她说的一件事就是，太多人都在做别人期望他们做的事。
So one of the things that she said is too many people do what other people expect of them.
嗯。
Mhmm.
还有一个故事，他们去提顿山旅行的时候，伊冯·切纳德是他们的向导，所以他们在那里有过交集。
There's a story too where they were on a trip in the Tetons, and Yvonne Chenard was was their porter on the trip, and so they had some crossover there.
我不确定他是不是受到了他们生活方式的影响，但你知道，他后来会说，生活很容易变得复杂。
And I'm not sure if if he was influenced by by how they were living, but, I mean, you know, he went on to say things like, it's it's very easy to complicate your life.
简化生活要难得多，我觉得康恩夫妇就是最好的例子。
It's a lot harder to simplify, and I think the Conn's are, like, the number one example of that.
他们的生活方式到现在来看还是很前卫的。
Their lifestyle is still radical these days.
我是说，从某些方面来看，住山洞、不用电，这些现在听起来更前卫。
I mean, in some ways, the cave and the lack of electricity, like, that seems even more radical these days.
但选择自己道路这个想法，你觉得现在还算前卫吗？
But the idea of choosing your own path, I mean, do you think that that's still radical nowadays?
我觉得现在反对的声音少了很多。
I think there's a lot less pushback on it.
我觉得如果你真的去做，那还是很前卫的。
I think it's just as radical if you
他们是真的去做了。
They actually do it.
他们当年那么拼，现在也一样拼。
Are pushing as hard as they did.
我是说，他们真的是一直在全力以赴。
I mean, they truly went for it always.
不过这么说也挺有意思的，因为从大局来看，他们确实是在全力以赴，但如果你一天天看他们的生活，可能会觉得他们有很多空闲时间，基本上大部分时间都在放松，看起来根本不像是很拼的样子。
It's funny to frame it that way though because it's like they truly went for it sort of in the big picture, but day by day you'd probably look at their life and think like, that's a lot of leisure time and like they're basically chilling most of the time and it would look incredibly like they're not going for it.
你懂我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
看起来可能会非常悠闲。
Like, it would look like so relaxed, probably.
你可能会这么想，但赫伯写了大概46本书，都是科幻小说。
You would think that, but Herb wrote, like, 46 books, like sci fi novels.
他还写了一本60页的数学巨著，而且他真的被列入了百大业余数学家之一。
And he wrote a big mathematical book that was 60 pages long, and he was literally listed on the 100 greatest amateur mathematicians.
那是维基百科上的一个页面，讲的是历史上最伟大的100位业余数学家。
It was a Wikipedia page for the 100 greatest amateur mathematicians in history.
比如，本·富兰克林也在名单上，还有其他很多人。
Like, Ben Franklin was on the list and like a bunch of other people.
对。
Yeah.
他一直在和美国东海岸还有澳大利亚的数学家们通信，讨论那些他感兴趣的谐波方程。
He was he was writing letters back and forth to, like, mathematicians on the East Coast and, like, Australia about these, like, harmonic equations that he was just interested in.
他就是这么打发时间的。
I that's how he spent his time.
就像个真正的博学家，兴趣非常广泛。
Like like a proper polymath, like, wide ranging interest.
是的。
Yeah.
还有简，她会演奏大概30种乐器。
And Jan was like, she played, like, 30 instruments.
她主要演奏，她特别喜欢长笛。
She played mostly, she loved the flute.
弹了很多吉他。
A lot of guitar.
采访里她说，有一阵子Herb每天记录她练琴六个小时。
In the interview, she said that at one point, Herb was clocking her at six hours a day playing an instrument.
就是每天六个小时。
Like, six hours a day.
他们那处房产里有个建筑，里面有很多旧磁带，录着她的一些原创歌曲。
One of the structures on their property had a lot of old tapes that had some of her original songs.
所以她的音乐构成了《Catching Pinecones》整部原声带。
So her music makes up the entirety of the soundtrack of Catching Pinecones.
这样授权也容易多了。
Makes it a lot easier to license that way too.
有意思的是，不知道你们有没有看过Cedar Wright在2000年代初期的所有YouTube视频，他总是会自己配乐。
It's funny that, I don't know if you guys ever watched all of Cedar Cedar Wright's YouTube videos in sort of the early two thousands, but he would always make his own music for him.
可能没有你描述的那些那么好。
It probably is less good than what you're describing.
但我有点觉得，这感觉是一样的，你知道吗？
But I'm sort of like, it feels like the same, know?
然后就是，拍电影，然后为电影配自己的音乐，整个一套。
You And so it's just like, making films and making their own music for the films and the whole thing.
简最初在至少是华盛顿特区的攀岩圈子里是以音乐家身份出名的。
Jan was first known as a musician in at least the climbing circles in the DC area.
但她去了丘吉尔堡，那是在加拿大的哈德逊湾，在加拿大东部。
But she went to Fort Churchill, which is on the Hudson Bay Of Canada, like, in Eastern Canada.
二战结束后，她两次去那里为士兵们演奏圣诞音乐。
After World War two was over to play for the soldiers over Christmas, she did that two times.
所以她是个巡回音乐家，才华横溢到被邀请去演出。
So she was a traveling musician that was so talented that she was getting invited.
她被邀请去南美，但她没去。
She got invited to South America and didn't go.
她在四十年代上过电视表演。
She played on TV back in the forties.
所以早期就有很多纯粹的天赋。
So there was a lot of just raw talent early on.
然后就是，其实我不太想要那个。
And then there was like, I don't really want that.
咱们就专心攀岩吧，因为那比围着篝火弹琴更有趣。
Let's just do climbing because that's more fun than we can play music around the campfire.
她七十多岁时，终于实现了毕生的梦想，写了一部音乐剧，一部完整的舞台音乐剧，上演了，有演员，演了好几场，当地报纸评价很好，名字叫《跑去接松果》。
In her seventies, she did finally fulfill a lifelong dream of of writing a musical, an entire staged musical that was performed, cast, had a number of performances, was well reviewed in the local newspaper, and it was called Run to Catch a Pinecone.
所以电影的名字就是为了纪念这件事。
So to honor that is where the title of the film comes from.
这个名字是什么意思？
What does the title mean?
她说那是介于天地之间的东西。
She said it was something caught between heaven and earth.
如果你接住一颗正在落下的松果，你就抓住了那一瞬间，那是特别而独一无二的。
If you catch a pine cone falling, that you've caught it in a moment, and that's special and unique.
不过接松果是不是挺糟糕的？
Isn't catching pine cones terrible though?
所以，说到接松果这个想法，你会觉得，哎呀。
So Or the idea of catching a pine cone, you're like, Ah.
所以，在咱们东海岸这边，
So here on the East Coast,
我们有树叶。
we have leaves.
每年秋天，我都会说，我最喜欢的游戏，让孩子们出来玩，就是接树叶。
In the fall, every year, I'm like, my favorite game, get the kids out, is catch a leaf.
树叶都落下来，接树叶真的很好玩。
The leaves all come down, and it's just fun to catch a leaf.
在我认识简·康恩之前，在我有孩子之前，那是我最喜欢的游戏。
And that was my favorite game before I met Jan Conn and before I had kids.
然后我们认识了简，她说，跑着去接松果。
And then we meet Jan, and she's like, run to catch a pine cone.
这就像去接一个硬邦邦的东西。
It's like going to get a hard thing.
接松果要难得多，因为它掉下来速度更快。
It's to it's much harder to catch a pine cone because it's coming faster.
而且特别疼。
And it's ultra painful.
对。
Yeah.
我一直觉得，这显然就是康恩家的“接树叶”游戏。
I always thought, obviously, it's the Conn's version of Catch a Leaf.
只是更难，而且你得比我现在做的更努力去接。
It's just harder and you gotta go for it more than whatever I've been doing.
你们为什么觉得康恩家的事重要？
Why do you guys think that the Conn's matter?
为什么这个故事值得讲？
Why is this a story worth telling?
因为每个人都会从中找到喜欢的东西，也会学到一些东西。
Because literally everyone will love something about it and will learn something from it.
怎么说？
How so?
比如，那个……
Like, the
对我来说，我是个攀岩爱好者。
So, like, for me, I'm a rock climber.
我觉得这是个去攀岩的好借口。
I'm like, this is an excuse to go rock climbing.
但他们的人生经历很丰富，做过很多不同的事情，也多次改变方向。
But there's, like, this life history that they did so many different things, and they changed gears a bunch of different times.
他们很有智慧，有很多关于人类生活的共通之处，通过简用简单有趣的小故事表达出来。
And they're so wise, and there's just so much there that is intrinsic to human life that we share through Jan because she just says it in these simple, funny, little ways.
所以这只是一个有趣的故事。
And so it's just it's just a fun story.
你知道吗？
You know?
我觉得我们现在所处的文化，太以社交媒体为导向了，大家都急着展示自己做了什么，马上发帖。
I think the culture we're in now that's so, like, social media forward and look what I did and post stuff immediately.
我真的很喜欢这个故事感觉更慢一些。
I really liked that this felt kind of more like a slow story.
这就是他们的生活。
It was just their life.
他们没想当网红，简甚至也谈到了一点。
They weren't trying to be influencers and Jan even talks about that a bit.
如果你能教小时候的你，你会对她说什么？
If you were teaching you when you were little, what would you say to her?
去做你自己的事。
Go do your own thing.
如果你想做，那就有价值。
And if you wanna do it, it has value.
而且我发现，如果你追随自己的内心，最终你自然会做出贡献。
And I found that if you follow your own desires, you end up making a contribution.
你不能只是坐在那儿说，嗯，我要为世界做贡献。
You can't just sit out and say, well, I'm gonna make a contribution to the world.
你得追随自己的渴望，全心全意去做，这样你自然就会做出贡献。
You've got to follow your own desire and do it with all your heart, and and you'll make a contribution.
你要对自己有信心，相信你所做的事情在某个地方、某个时候一定会有价值。
You're just gonna have confidence in yourself that what you do is gonna have a value somewhere or sometime.
如果你内心真的想做，你就会去做。
And if it's in you to do it, you'll do it.
谢谢Chad和Parker的合作。
Thank you, Chad and Parker for the collaboration.
一起工作真的非常有趣。
That was super fun to work on.
电影《接住松果》将在今年秋天晚些时候上映。
Catching Pinecones, the film will be out later this fall.
去 catchingpinecones.com 了解更多信息，看看它接下来在哪里放映。
Go to catchingpinecones.com to learn more and find out where it's screening next.
与此同时，查德效仿亚历克斯，徒手攀登了他家乡罗阿诺克那座著名的星星。
In the meantime, Chad's been taking a page from Alex and has free soloed his hometown of Roanoke's famed star.
视频链接在节目说明里。
The link to the video is in the show notes.
这太疯狂了，而且亚历克斯还客串了一下。
It's ridiculous, and Alex makes cameo.
值得你花两分钟看看。
It's worth your two minutes.
嘿，你听说了吗？你可以无广告收听《Climbing Gold》。
Hey, have you heard that you can get Climbing Gold ad free?
我们团队一直在努力，这需要团队合作，也需要赞助商和广告商的支持。
The team here has been doing great work, and it takes a team to make this happen, and that takes sponsors and advertisers.
如果你想直接支持我们的工作，不想听广告，也可以。
If you wanna support our work directly and not listen to ads, you can.
我们把它叫做《攀金无绳》。
We're calling it Climbing Gold Unroped.
它会在所有主流播客平台上推送。
Get it delivered to all major podcasting platforms.
非常简单。
It is super simple.
你只要在节目说明里注册一下。
You sign up in the show notes.
点链接，加入，订阅，然后它就像变魔术一样出现了，跟平时一样。
You click on the link, you join, you subscribe, and it shows up just like magic, just like it always does.
去看看吧。
Check it out.
《攀金》由Duct Tape and Beer制作。
Climbing Gold is created by Duct Tape and Beer.
Alex Honnold是我们的主持人。
Alex Honnold is our host.
我们的制作团队包括马可·西勒·冈萨雷斯和埃文·菲利普斯，他们都很有才华。
Our production team includes the talents of Marco Siler Gonzales and Evan Phillips.
丹尼尔·扬沃思是我们的制作实习生，也是今天这期节目的首席制作人。
Daniel Jungworth is our production intern who was also lead producer on today's episode.
干得好，丹尼尔。
Nice work, Daniel.
我们的创意总监是米·菲茨加哈尔。
Our creative director is Mee Fitzgahal.
今天的音乐来自金·卡拉万、菲尔·布劳恩斯坦、埃文·菲利普斯、大卫·斯文森、杰西·西登伯格、加兰、皇家宫廷，还有，是的，简·康恩。
Music today by King Caravan, Phil Braunstein, Evan Phillips, David Swenson, Jesse Sidenberg, Garland, Royal Courts, and, yes, Jan Conn.
主题音乐由布伦南·奥康奈尔创作，威尔·泰勒负责广告销售。
Theme music by Brennan O'Connell, Will Taylor handles our ad sales.
我们的执行制片人是RXR体育的乔纳森·雷茨克和莉西·亨德里克斯，以及Duct Tape and Beer的贝卡·卡哈尔。
Our executive producers are Jonathan Retzik and Lisey Hendrix for RXR Sports and Becca Cahal for Duct Tape and Beer.
感谢收听。
Thanks for listening.
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