乔恩·克拉考尔：山的阴影

希望你们也会像我一样喜欢。

I hope you enjoy them as much as I do.

如果你没去攀岩，你觉得你会当上作家吗？

Do do you think you would have wound up as a writer if you hadn't been a climber?

大概不会。

Probably not.

说实话，要不是认识罗伯茨，我根本不会当作家；要不是认识罗伯茨，我可能也不会成为攀岩者，至少不会成为现在的我。

I mean, I wouldn't have been a writer if I hadn't met Roberts, and I wouldn't have been climber probably if I hadn't met Roberts and not the kind of climber I became.

我根本不知道怎么才能当个作家。

I wouldn't know how to become a writer.

我在高中时成绩特别差。

I was a terrible student in high school.

整个高中期间，我从来没写过一篇论文。

I never wrote a paper in all of my high school.

那你大学就专攻攀岩了。

And you majored in climbing in college.

那可不是什么好事

That's not a that's not a great

是的

Yeah.

我上大学时那所学校是所全新的实验性学院，和我一起上学的有些人，

And some of my you know, some of the people I went to college with, it was this brand new experimental college.

比如肯·伯恩斯，还有其他几个特别出色的作家和演员。

Ken Burns who was a classmate, these really good writers, really good actors.

那些优秀的作家后来去了《纽约客》和《时尚先生》工作，比如汤姆·基扎和奇普·布朗。

And the really good writers went on to like Tom Kizai and Chip Brown, they went on to write for New Yorker and Esquire.

他们比我早一两年毕业，一直把我当成后辈。

And they just thought of me, I was like a year or two behind them.

听说我开始做自由撰稿，他们就说：‘那个懒汉、攀岩的，能有什么出息。’

And when they heard that I had started freelancing, they were like, That slacker, that climber, he's not going to amount to anything.

根本没人觉得我会当作家。

I wasn't expected to be a writer.

没人会说，这人有天赋，咱们得鼓励他。

It's not like people were saying, Oh, this guy has talent.

我们应该支持他。

We should encourage him.

罗伯特看出了点什么。

Robert saw something.

我刚结婚那会儿，还在阿拉斯加的圣拉蒙四号当商业鲑鱼渔民。

Right after I got married, I'd been a commercial salmon fisherman in Alaska in San Ramon Four.

后来我跟妻子琳达搬回了科罗拉多，她也是刚嫁给我。

And I moved back to Colorado with Linda, my wife, who'd just gotten married.

那时候我和罗伯特都过得挺艰难的。

And Robert's and I was struggling.

我当时根本没意识到，正赶上大萧条。

I didn't there was a big recession.

当木匠的活儿根本找不到。

There was no work as a carpenter.

我跟老婆说，你要是嫁给我，我就再也不去打鱼了。

I told my wife I wouldn't fish anymore if she married me.

所以我当时真不知道该怎么办。

So So I didn't know what to do.

我甚至想过去读法学院，还一直在准备LSAT考试。

So I even thought about going to law school and I was studying for the LSAT's.

琳达跟戴夫说了，约翰根本不是当律师的料。

Linda actually talked to Dave and said, John's, he's not a lawyer.

你得想办法让他转行做点别的。

You got to talk him into something else.

于是他专程飞到科罗拉多来。

So he flew out to Colorado.

我们当时住在科罗拉多斯普林斯上方的格林山瀑布，靠近伍德兰公园。

We were living above Colorado Springs in Green Mountain Falls near Woodland Park.

他来就是为了劝我去做自由撰稿人。

And he came out just to talk me into being a freelance writer.

他真的做到了。

And he did.

他待了几天，一直鼓励我说：你做得到的。

He spent a few days with us saying, you can do this.

我来告诉你怎么做。

Here's how you do it.

他刚辞掉教职，当上了自由撰稿人，说这工作特别棒。

He had just quit teaching and was a freelance writer and said, it's great.

你可以到处旅行。

You get to travel.

还能玩得开心。

You get to have fun.

你可以去攀岩，还能靠攀岩赚钱。

You know, you can go climbing, get paid to climb.

要是他没给我打这剂强心针，我现在可能在干别的吧。

That he's if he hadn't had done that pep talk, who knows what I would be doing now?

我的意思是，谁知道呢？

I mean, who knows?

也许该提醒一下听众，那时候杂志预算充足，写文章真能挣到钱。

And maybe it's worth reminding listeners that this is a time when magazines had big budgets, writing was people were actually getting paid to write.

那是社交媒体出现之前，连文案都还没兴起，可以说是写作的黄金时代了。

This is pre social media, pre captions, like, pre you know, this is like the probably the golden age of writing in a way.

对吧？

Right?

说真的，你赶上了一个不错的时机。

I mean, like, you kinda hit the scene at a at a good time.

对我这样的人来说，我赶上的是最理想的时机。

Well, for someone like me, I hit the scene at the perfect time.

我很理解现在想做自由撰稿的人，那时候编辑们可是在主动找像我这样的人。

I have great empathy for people trying to freelance now because they were actually looking for people like me.

你当时寄封询问信过去，那时候叫查询信，现在叫提案。

I mean, you sent them a query letter, called it, now you call it a pitch.

他们还会让你先写好再决定要不要用。

And they would assign you stuff on spec.

他们会说：‘这人自称会写，不如让他先写一篇试试看。’

They'd say, well, here's someone who says he can write, let's have him write something speculatively.

于是你就有了机会。比如我，因为我是登山者，当时Mug Stump和Jim Bridwell刚完成了Moose's Tooth的东壁，那是1979年或1980年的一次重大攀登。

And so you get a chance and if it worked, like I wrote, because I was a climber, Mug Stump and Jim Bridwell had just done the East Face Of The Moose's Tooth, which is a major climb in 1979 or 'eighty.

我和Mugs非常熟。

And I knew Mugs really well.

他是我的好朋友。

He was a close friend.

所以我掌握了第一手资料，就向《户外》杂志提议，以自由投稿的方式写这篇攀登报道，他们很喜欢。

So I got the inside scoop and Outside Magazine, I proposed writing about that climb on spec and they liked it.

篇幅不长。

It's a short piece.

就因为这篇稿子，一周后他们又找上门来，开始给我派活儿了。

And because of that, then a week later they called me back and they started giving me assignments.

他们说：‘你不是一直被困在帐篷里吗？不如写写在暴风雨中被困帐篷是什么感觉？’

They said, Hey, if you've been tent bound, why don't you write about what it's like to be stuck in a tent in a storm?

那时候正好他们需要写手，我就赶上了好时候。

So I came along at the right time where they needed writers.

刚开始在《户外》杂志拿的稿费不多，但一年内我就开始为《滚石》《史密森尼》和《建筑文摘》写稿了，因为我当过木匠。

I wasn't getting paid much by outside at first, but within a year I was writing for Rolling Stone and Smithsonian and Architectural Digest because I'd been a carpenter.

我的原则就是，有什么就写什么。

I mean, you do whatever.

是啊，我确实能写建筑方面的内容。

Yeah, I could write about architecture.

我在科罗拉多州布卢姆菲尔德盖过一些联排住宅。

I built some tract houses in Bloomfield, Colorado.

所以我把手上任何经历都拿来利用。

So I parlayed whatever you got, man.

用它去争取新的约稿机会。

You use it to get the assignment.

结果还真成了。

And it worked.

到了八十年代末，乔恩已经成了备受追捧的自由撰稿人。

By the late eighties, Jon had established himself as a sought after freelancer.

1990年，他出版了第一本书《埃格峰之梦》，收录了关于登山的多篇文章和随笔。

In 1990, he published his first book, Eiger Dreams, a collection of articles and essays about climbing.

这本书至今在登山圈里还是本经典之作。

It's still a sort of cult classic in climbing.

但到了1992年，《户外》杂志请乔恩写一篇封面报道，这件事彻底改变了他的人生轨迹。

But in 1992, Outside enlisted Jon for a cover story that would change the trajectory of his life.

这篇题为《纯真之死》的文章，讲述了克里斯·麦坎德里斯的故事——一位理想主义的流浪者，神秘地死于阿拉斯加荒野中，饿得只剩骨架。

The piece titled Death of an Innocent tells the story of Chris McCandless, an idealistic nomad who mysteriously starved to death in the wilderness of Alaska.

这篇文章引起了巨大反响。

It garnered a lot of attention.

反响大到让克拉考尔决定深入挖掘，把这件事从一篇报道扩展成更完整的作品。

So much so that Krakauer decided to go deeper, to move it beyond just an article.

这本书后来成了他的第一本《纽约时报》畅销书《荒野生存》。

It would become his first New York Times bestseller Into the Wild.

你觉得这本书为什么会引起这么大轰动，还成了个意外爆款？

Why do you think that book became the sensation and kind of the sleeper hit?

说真的，到现在都还很受欢迎，都三十多年了。

Mean, it's still a popular book, and it's more than thirty years later.

到底是什么原因，让这本书如此触动人心？

It's like, why why did that book strike a nerve the way it did?

我不清楚。

I don't know.

他身上有种东西——是个年轻人，就算没人说得清具体原因，大家也能感觉到，这孩子所处的社会根本容不下他。

Something about him here's a kid, even people who didn't know why, they realized here's a kid whose society isn't working for him.

他必须离开，逃出去。

He's got to get out, escape.

而他真的这么做了。

And he does it.

他把自己所有的钱都捐给了慈善机构，用来帮助那些挨饿的人。

He donates all his money to hunger charity.

他在沙漠里把自己的钱烧掉了。

He burns his money in the desert.

这就像大家心里都有个幻想：天哪，我真讨厌这该死的工作。

It was like people had this fantasy, Man, I hate this fucking job.

我真希望我也能像他那样。

I wish I could do that.

我觉得主要原因就在这儿，但我说不清楚。

I think that's a lot of it, but I can't explain it.

他确实戳中了大家的痛点。

He touched a nerve.

当然，也有不少人在黑他。

There's a lot of haters too.

人们对这本书的态度两极分化，要么特别讨厌，要么特别喜爱。

People either hate that book or they love it.

我不明白为什么。

And I don't know why.

我真说不上来原因。

I can't really tell you why.

这本书差点就没出版。

It almost didn't get published.

我写了那篇文章，后来把稿子推荐给了维拉德出版社，我的编辑叫道格·斯腾普。

I wrote that article, then I pitched it as a book to Villard Books and my editor was a guy named Doug Stumpf.

他说：这太棒了。

He said, This is great.

我把稿子交上去了。

I turned it in.

我花了三年时间才写完。

It took me three years to write.

我把稿子交上去了。

I turned it in.

他说：‘这太棒了。’

He said, This is great.

这太棒了。

This is great.

之后我整整一年都没收到他的消息。

And I didn't hear from him for a year.

我就问Doug：‘你那边怎么了？’

And I said, Doug, what's up?

他说：‘我其实一直想跟你说。’

Said, Oh, I've been meaning to tell you.

《名利场》杂志刚给我提供了副主编的职位。

Vanity Fair magazine just offered me the number two position on the masthead.

我得接受这个机会。

I got to take it.

我要走了，不过你别担心，你的书交到靠谱的人手里了。

I'm going to leave, but don't worry, your book's in good hands.

这本书很快就要出版了。

It's going to get published very soon.

但情况不是这样，我的意思是，买下这本书的编辑走了，你的书就变得有问题了。

Well, that is not what hap I mean, the editor who acquired the book leaves, your book is tainted.

没人愿意碰它，因为如果卖得好，他们不会认是自己的功劳。

No one's going to touch it because if it does well, they won't give the credit.

要是卖得差，责任却要他们来扛。

And if it's a stinker, it's on their budget.

所以根本没人愿意出。

So no one would publish it.

我的经纪人说：我知道有位编辑一定会喜欢这本书。

My agent said, I know an editor will love this book.

帕纳松出版社有位知名编辑，他给我的编辑写了一封信，我亲眼看过，信里说这本书根本没法出版。

This famous editor at Pantheon Books, he sent my editor a letter, which he showed me that said, this book is unpublishable.

《荒野生存》根本没法出版。

Into the Wild is unpublishable.

这位作者到底在搞什么？

What is this author doing?

书里头突然就开始讲他当年爬山的经历。

In the middle of the book, he starts talking about some climb he did.

这书不是该写那个孩子吗？结果他净写自己，东一榔头西一棒子，这书根本没法出。

Is this supposed to be about this kid and he's writing about himself and it's all over the place and this book is unpublishable.

所以没人能料到这本书会变成畅销书。

So it's not like anyone knew that book was gonna be this bestseller.

从来没人能预料到。

No one ever knows.

说白了，就是这样。

I mean, that's the thing.

从来没人能预料到。

No one ever knows.

为什么一首歌能火，另一首听着差不多、水平也相当的却不行？

I mean, why does one song become a hit song and another song that sounds just a lot like it and just as good not?

没人知道。

Nobody knows.

这就是艺术的神秘之处。

That's the mystery of art.

所以我喜欢《荒野生存》。

And so, I liked Into the Wild.

算是我写过最短的一本书了。

I mean, was my shortest book.

那是我唯一真正享受写作过程的书。

It was the one book I actually enjoyed writing.

我特别喜欢做研究，也享受四处旅行，去见那些认识克里斯的人。

And I really enjoyed researching and I enjoyed traveling around meeting people who'd met Chris.

因为我先写了一篇报道，他认识的那些人，在报道发表后都主动联系了杂志社。

Because I'd written an article first, he'd met all these people that when the article came out, they contacted the magazine.

所以我后来才能一一找到这些人。

So I was able to track down all these people.

他有一种独特的魅力。

He had this charisma.

在我采访那些在他去世后见过他的人时，哪怕只见过一面，他们依然记得他。

People who had met him for an afternoon when I'd interviewed them after he died, they still remembered him.

不知为什么，他真的打动了很多人。

He really touched a lot of people for whatever reason.

我想，这或许能解释为什么这本书这么受欢迎。

That explains something about why the book was so popular, I think.

这时候，乔恩的生活开始加速了。

So at this point, things were moving fast for Jon.

《荒野生存》不仅收获了评论界的赞誉，也取得了商业上的成功。

Into the Wild was finding critical acclaim and commercial success.

乔恩接下来为《户外》杂志接了新任务，写一篇关于珠穆朗玛峰向导行业商业化的文章。

Jon was onto his next assignment for Outside Magazine, writing about the emerging commercialization of guiding on Mount Everest.

虽然乔恩首先是个记者，但攀登珠峰的想法重新点燃了他儿时的梦想。

And although Jon was going a journalist first, the thought of climbing Everest reignited a childhood dream.

1996年3月，我本该去珠峰，结果那会儿《荒野生存》已经上了《纽约时报》畅销书榜，我的出版人兼编辑大卫·罗森塔尔跟我说：‘你不能去珠峰，老兄。’

In March '96, when I was supposed to go to Everest, it was on the New York Times bestseller list, and my publisher, my editor David Rosenthal said, you can't go to Everest, man.

你得留下来，继续做《荒野生存》的巡回签售。

You gotta keep on Into the Wild book tour.

我们打算把它做成大事。

We're going to make this be big.

我回他：去他的。

And I said, Fuck that.

我讨厌巡回宣传。

I hate touring.

我讨厌这本书。

I hate this book.

我不干了，我要走人。

I'm out of here.

我要去珠峰。

I'm going to Everest.

我想好好玩一玩，去爬山。

I'm going to have some fun and climb.

广告结束后，我们继续。

We'll be back with more after the break.

你上一次在健身房或者朋友车里听到一首新歌，心里忍不住说‘真牛’，是什么时候？

When was the last time you you heard a new song at the gym or, like, on a friend's car staring and were like, damn.

我喜欢这种感觉。

I like that.

挺常见的。

Not infrequently.

其实昨晚就发生了。

Actually, last night.

对啊。

Yeah.

我那个AI播放器，给我放歌呢。

My AI DJ, you know, playing me music.

我当时就想，哎，这还挺带感的。

I was like, oh, that's cool.

你听到啥了？

What'd you get?

它给你推了啥歌？

What what did it serve you?

你当时是不是心里直接喊了句：卧槽。

What were like, damn.

我得把这首歌加进播放列表。

I'm putting that on the playlist.

它给我推了一堆乱七八糟的，什么嘶吼朋克之类的。

Oh, it just served me up some random, you know, screamo or something.

我当时就想，哇，真厉害。

I was like, oh, wow.

这歌太炸了。

That that rocks.

Turtlebox 出了一款便携式蓝牙音箱。

So Turtlebox makes a portable ranger speaker.

它摔不坏。

It's drop proof.

而且防尘。

It's dust proof.

自带磁性，能吸在任何金属表面。

It's magnetized so you can stick it to anything metal.

这让它特别适合在健身房用，或者出门旅行时带着。

It probably makes it perfect for having around the gym or even, like, traveling.

在健身房用确实不错，但说实话，真正厉害的是它防孩子捣乱。

It is great for the gym, but honestly, what makes it great is that it's baby proof.

我们平时在后院推孩子荡秋千，或者在泳池边玩的时候，都一直用它。

We use it in the backyard all the time when we're pushing the girls on the swings, basically, like, playing at the pool.

在外面合适的地方，一家人听音乐，这方式挺好的。

It's a nice way to listen to music with family when you're outside in places that are appropriate.

所以并不是说在攀岩场开最大音量放音乐，而是真的，两个小姑娘荡秋千的时候特别爱听歌。

So it doesn't mean blasting music at the sport crag, but it means I mean, honestly, the girls are just so into listening to music while they swing.

你能带着芭比主题曲出门在户外放，这种感觉挺不错的，对吧？

You're like, oh, it's nice to be able to bring, you know, bring the Barbie song with you for the outdoors or whatever.

我觉得这样挺好的。

You're like, oh, it's fine.

Turtlebox 专为户外设计，提供多种尺寸的耐用便携蓝牙音箱，让你随时随地享受音乐。

Designed for the outdoors, Turtlebox makes durable and portable Bluetooth speakers in a range of sizes so you can take your music anywhere.

更多详情请访问 turtleboxaudio.com。

Find out more at turtleboxaudio.com.

你平时会靠喝咖啡来撑过特别忙的一天吗？

Do you ever use caffeine as one of the things to get you through big days?

我从来没特意去摄取咖啡因，但偶尔会在能量胶、运动补剂里碰到，我并不排斥它。

I have never really intentionally sought out caffeine necessarily, but, you know, I occasionally have it in in gels and goos and random sports products, and I'm definitely not opposed to it.

我知道它确实有帮助。

I mean, I know it helps.

对。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

LMNT推出了一款新口味：柠檬冰茶。

LMNT's got a new flavor, lemonade iced tea.

里面添加了红茶提取物。

It's got black tea extract.

好处是，这种咖啡因的释放方式更接近茶叶本身的自然状态。

The benefit is that that caffeine is more like how it is in a tea plant.

它和L-茶氨酸、多酚结合在一起，带来更平稳的体验。

It's bundled with L theanine and polyphenol, so it creates a steadier feeling.

不会像那些能量胶里突然冲上来的强烈咖啡因感。

It's not just like that crazy caffeine hit that you sometimes get out of gels.

我最近一直在喝LMNT的柠檬冰茶，味道不错，确实挺好。

Actually, I have been drinking the the LMNT lemonade iced tea at the Greg and tastes good and I Mhmm.

我觉得，当你在推进项目的时候，咖啡因应该能帮上忙。

Basically, I assume that caffeine must help when you're trying to send your project.

不过有很多研究和科学证据表明，只要别过量，咖啡因确实能提升表现。

But I mean, there is a lot of evidence and and sort of support science that caffeine helps performance as long as you don't overdo it.

所以适量摄入咖啡因其实没什么坏处，是的。

And so there's really no harm in in having caffeine Yeah.

尤其是在运动的时候。

You know, during exercise.

在 drinklmnt.com/climbinggold 购买任何产品，即可免费获得 Element 最受欢迎的八种口味试用装。

Get a free eight count sample pack of Element's most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase at drinklmnt.com/climbinggold.

网址是 drinklmnt.com/climbinggold。

That's drinklmnt.com/climbinggold.

亚历克斯，燕麦脆是当早餐吃、当零食，还是当配料？

Alex, is granola what you eat for breakfast, a snack, or a topping.

你到底是怎么用它的？

Which one is it?

我主要是当早餐吃。

It's more of what I eat for breakfast.

就像早上吃麦片一样，再加一堆健康的配料，比如杏仁椰奶之类的。

Basically, like cereal in the morning, add a bunch of wholesome fixings and and do, you know, some, like, almond coconut milk type stuff.

今天早上我吃的正是这个。

Actually, that's what I have for breakfast this morning.

是的。

Yeah.

我早餐吃这个，而且我明显看到孩子们放学后会拿酸奶和格兰诺拉麦片当点心，这简直救了我们的命——你知道吗，大孩子到了青春期，胃口大得吓人。

I eat it for breakfast, and I definitely see our kids make a bowl of yogurt and granola after school, which is, like, a lifesaver because, dude, our eldest is, has the hollow legs from teenage years.

老是觉得饿。

Just like, I'm always hungry.

对。

Yeah.

大家都知道Kodiak的煎饼，但他们最近推出了一款格兰诺拉麦片。

Everyone knows Kodiak for their pancakes, but they've recently launched a line of granola.

有五种口味，包括巧克力味。

Comes in five flavors, including chocolate.

采用100%全谷物制成，含有16克以上蛋白质，还添加了椰子油等优质成分，能让你更持久地感到饱足。

It's it's made with a 100% whole grains, 16 plus grams of protein, and quality ingredients like coconut oil to make you feel fuller for longer.

用这款高蛋白早餐，让孩子们精力充沛，迎接充实的一天。

Keep your wild ones going with a protein packed breakfast that will keep them fueled for big days.

在您附近的超市就能找到Kodiak的产品。

Find Kodiak products at your local grocery store.

包装盒上有熊图案的就是它们。

They're the ones with the bear on the box.

更多详情请访问kodiakcakes.com。

Learn more at kodiakcakes.com.

人们总说我的书《进入空气稀薄地带》引发了珠峰上的拥堵热潮，这确实有一定道理。

You know, I think people talk about how my book Into Thin Air sorta sparked this mob scene on Everest, which is partly true.

但我原以为我的书会产生相反的效果。

I thought my book would have the opposite effect.

这场可怕的悲剧夺走了生命，让我一生都深受创伤后应激障碍的折磨。

This horrible tragedy, people died, fucked me up for life with PTSD.

人们总说，这主意太危险了。

People would say, Oh, it's a bad idea.

结果却适得其反。

It had the opposite effect.

就像赌徒被老虎机吸引一样，人们被珠穆朗玛峰牢牢抓住了。

Attracted people like Everest, like gamblers to a slot machine.

事实证明，人们就是喜欢冒险。

Turns out people like risk.

但这一切都是布雷谢尔斯开始的，1985年他带领迪克·巴斯登上了峰顶。

And so, but Breshears started it all when in 1985 he guided Dick Bass to the summit.

补充一下，大卫·布雷谢尔斯是一位著名的登山家和电影制作人。

For context, David Brashears was a well known climber and filmmaker.

他于1998年制作了广受好评的IMAX电影《珠穆朗玛峰》。

He produced the acclaimed IMAX film in 1998, Everest.

他还对如今广为人知的七大洲最高峰路线的形成起到了关键作用。

He was also instrumental in creating the circuit that we all know today as the seven summits.

他名义上不是向导，但其实就是那个带路的人。

Now he wasn't officially a guide, but he was the guide.

我的意思是，要是布雷舍尔斯不同意带他，巴斯根本不可能登顶珠峰。

I mean, Bass would have never climbed Everest if Brashears hadn't agreed to

这个内容在《七大洲最高峰》那本书里也有提到吗？

And and that's in the book Seven Summits?

有。

Yep.

就是迪克·巴斯写的那本吗？

That's the the Dick Bass book?

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

因为我年轻时读过这本书，当时就觉得太震撼了。

Because I I read that book when I was young and was also like, that's amazing.

我真想把所有这些山峰都爬一遍。

I wanna climb all these peaks.

因为这本书简直就是一场壮丽的冒险故事，讲他环游世界、攀登这些雄伟的高峰。

Because that book is basically a tale of grand adventure, you know, like him going around the world and climbing these grand mountains.

而且，说实话，它对我年轻时的影响也特别大。

And, yeah, it was it was, also very influential for me as when I was young.

很多人看到迪克·巴斯，都会说他吹牛：我不是运动员。

Well, and a lot of people because people looked at Dick Bass, he bragged, I'm no athlete.

我不是登山者。

I'm not a climber.

我就是个普通钓鱼的。

I'm just largemouth bass.

你知道的，我话多，爱吹，但身体确实很硬朗。

You know, I can talk a lot and I like and he's really strong.

结果他天生适合高海拔环境，还总说，如果我能做到，你也可以。

Turns out he's a natural at altitude, but he would even talk about how if I could do it, you can do it.

很多人都是受他鼓舞，才去挑战七大洲最高峰和珠穆朗玛峰的。

So a lot of people that inspired people to do the seven summits and Everest.

这事儿就这么火起来了。

And I mean, that got it off.

直到1992年，才出现第一家真正意义上的商业登山公司，向导是拿工资的，整个流程也正规化了。

Then the first truly guided where it was a guiding company and the guides were paid and it was all sort of official was in 1992.

那一年我推荐的两家公司，一家是罗布·哈尔的Venture Consultants，另一家是托德·伯莱森的AAI。

The first guide I sent and the two guides two companies that did it that year were Rob Hall's company, Venture Consultants, and, Todd Burleson, AAI.

真正把这事推起来的，其实是罗布·哈尔。

And that, you know, it was Rob Hall that really got it going.

现在大多数人读完《进入空气稀薄地带》都觉得，珠峰商业化得太离谱了，简直疯狂。

I think most people now read Into Thin Air and they see like, oh, Everest is so commercialized, it's so crazy.

但你说的是，商业登山真正兴起是在1992年，而《进入空气稀薄地带》里那场悲剧是1996年发生的。

But you're saying that commercial guiding didn't really take off until 1992 and the Into Thin Air tragedy was '96.

我的意思是，那时候才刚起步，如今三十年过去了，登珠峰向导服务已经彻底 mainstream，人人都在请向导了。

I mean, that's like the very beginning of what is now totally thirty years later, totally mainstream, like everybody's guiding on Everest.

没错。

That's right.

没错。

That's right.

所以九二年的时候，并不是一下就火起来的。

And so, know, 'ninety two, it's not like then it took off.

发展还是挺慢的。

It was still slow to take off.

但罗布·霍尔之后每年都成功带队，连续三年都顺利登顶，还在主流杂志上打广告，吹嘘自己百分之百成功率，带了三十六个人登顶。

But Rob Hall, each year thereafter, he had successful, for the next three years, he had successful guided trips and he put ads in mainstream magazines and bragged about a 100% success rate and 36 people to Summit.

到了九六年，才第一次出现大规模混乱的局面，当时有好几支向导团队同时行动，我估计大本营里有七十五个人。

So 'ninety six was the first kind of big chaotic year where they were a bunch of guided expeditions that I think there were 75 people at base camp.

那时候向导服务才开始变得专业起来，但大家其实还在摸索阶段。

That's when the guiding started to get sophisticated, but still they were just figuring out guiding.

当时发生这场悲剧的一个原因，是人们普遍认为，如果登山者用三瓶氧气登顶珠峰——那时候只有技术好的人才能上去。

Like one of the reasons the tragedy happened was back then it was thought that if people use three bottles of oxygen to climb Everest, good climbers, there was only good climbers then.

所以大家觉得，三瓶氧气就是标准配置。

So they thought, well, that's what people need.

只要爬山，三瓶氧气就足够了。

They only need three bottles of oxygen if they're climbing.

如果连三瓶氧气都撑不住，那就别往上爬了。

If they can't do it with three bottles, they shouldn't be up there.

因此，罗布·霍尔在登顶那天，给每个人都配了三瓶氧气。

So Rob Hall allocated three bottles on Summit Day for everyone.

我们确实还有额外的氧气，用来从三号营地到四号营地，以及晚上睡觉时用，但登顶当天就只有三瓶。结果因为路上堵车、新手太多，还有那些说好不登顶的人临时改变主意，我自己的氧气就用光了。

We had other oxygen a little bit to get from Camp 3 to Camp 4 and to sleep with, but basically summit day you had three bottles and because of the bottlenecks and inexperienced climbers and people who said they weren't going to go that day did go, you know, I ran out of oxygen.

我当时还以为氧气绰绰有余。

I thought I had plenty of oxygen.

我中午从南峰出发，往顶峰走。

Started from the South Summit to the top at noon.

我知道第二瓶氧气会在两点钟用完。

I knew my second bottle would run out at two.

我以为我肯定能看见山顶就在前面。

I thought surely I could see the summit up there.

我肯定能在两小时内爬上去再下来。

Surely I can get up there and back in two hours.

这太蠢了，简直愚蠢至极。

That was stupid, utterly stupid on my part.

我最终登上了山顶。

So I got to the summit.

在山顶待了五分钟。

Spent five minutes on top.

我知道自己必须赶紧下山。

I knew I had to get down.

我急着往下赶，就怕氧气耗尽。

I was booking because I just didn't want to run out of gas.

我根本没在和谁比赛，但回到山脊顶端，固定绳索的终点处，正准备扣上安全绳时，

I wasn't racing anybody, but I got back to the top of the hill to step where the fixed ropes ended and about to clip in.

我看见一长串人正沿着绳子往上爬。

And I see this parade of people coming up the ropes.

他们没过去之前，我根本下不去。

I can't go down until they come up.

于是接下来的九十分钟，我就卡在那道狭窄如刀锋的山脊上，顶着每小时四十八到五十公里的大风。

So for the next ninety minutes, I was there perched on this narrow knife edge ridge in 29, 30 mile an hour winds.

就在那儿，我的氧气也用光了。

And then I ran out of oxygen while was up there.

我在海拔八千八百四十米的地方待了整整九十分钟。

I spent ninety minutes at 28,900 feet.

那时候你觉得自己在冒险吗？

Did you think you were taking risks at that point?

我很好奇，你登山时有多少次真的觉得危险？

I'm curious like how much of your climbing has actually felt risky to you or not?

还是说，这感觉更像调查报道？

Or did that feel like investigative journalism?

就是那种，我只是以记者的身份去旅行，纯粹去记录而已。

You know, where I'm like, oh, I'm just going on a trip as a reporter, and I'm just gonna report.

还是说，你觉得自己当时在冒险？

Or, like or did you feel like you were doing something risky?

我觉得那确实有风险，毕竟我不是埃德·贝斯特斯。

I thought it was risky simply because I'm not Ed Beesters.

我也不是罗纳德·梅斯纳。

I'm not Ronald Messner.

我只是一个很普通的运动员。

I'm a pretty ordinary athlete.

你知道的。

You know?

但我是个不错的运动员。

I'm a good athlete.

不过以现代珠峰登山者的眼光来看，那时候你已经是个经验极其丰富的登山者了，去过好几次阿拉斯加呢。

Though by the standards of modern Everest climbers, you were an incredibly experienced climber at that point with multiple Alaska expeditions and you know?

属于技术性攀登，没错。

Technical climbing, but yeah.

很多人没意识到的是，总有人说登珠峰不需要技术性攀登。

And here's something people don't appreciate is that everyone says, You don't need to be a technical climber on Everest.

你从来不会和别人绑在一起。

You're never roped to someone else.

你总是沿着固定绳索走。

You're always on a fixed rope.

你得跨过梯子。

You're crossing ladders.

但技术攀登能力救了我一命，因为上山时我们是摸黑出发的。

But being a technical climber helped save my life because on my way up, we started in the dark.

我一向都这么干，已经成习惯了。

I always do this as a habit.

人们忘了，爬上去并不意味着你就能找到下山的路。

People forget that when you're going up, that doesn't mean you're going to find a way down.

所以我总是回头标记地标，想好怎么原路返回。

So I always turn around and pick out landmarks and figure out how to get back down.

我确实这么做了。

And I did that.

风暴来的时候，我是最早登顶、领先大多数人的人。

And I was the one when the storm started coming in, I was ahead of most of the people who'd summited.

是我带头开路，后面的人跟着我的脚印走。

And I was the one who broke trail that others followed.

从海拔27600英尺的阳台下到26000英尺的高营地，路线很难找，走错路的人没几个能活下来。

And it's not easy route finding to get down from the balcony at 27,600 feet to the high camp at 26, people die going the wrong way.

我作为技术登山者的训练，让我找到了下山的路线。

And my training as a technical climber allowed me to find a route down.

1996年，像罗布·霍尔那样在5月10日一大早就出发，那时候高营地以上根本没几条固定绳索。

In 'ninety six, going early on May 10 like Rob Hall did, there weren't any ropes, very few ropes fixed above the high camp.

所以现在在珠峰，从大本营到山顶的每一寸路，至少都固定了一条绳索，有些地方甚至有两条，方便双向通行。

So today on Everest, every inch from base camp to the summits is fixed with at least one rope and two in places where you need a two way street.

但在1996年，高营地以上根本没有任何固定绳索。

In 'ninety six, none of that was fixed above the high camp.

如果你不是技术型登山者，又在黑暗中穿着冰爪，踩着陡峭的岩板往上爬，一旦滑坠，很可能就没命了。

So if you weren't a technical climber in the dark, you're in crampons, you're climbing snow over slabby rockets, yeah, if you fell there, you could die.

所以这点帮了我大忙。

So that helped there.

是的，我确实担心自己经验不足。

So yeah, I worried about my lack of experience.

但我从不担心自己的技术能力。

I didn't worry about my technical skills.

在塞罗托雷峰爬垂直的岩壁时，那种情况在珠峰上根本不会出现。

But climbing vertical rye mice on Cerro Torre, you don't do anything like that on Everest.

这感觉挺奇怪的。

It was weird.

我的意思是，其实感觉不到自己是团队一员，虽然你的向导小组算一个团队，但你从不和任何人系在同一根绳子上。

I mean, don't really feel part of a team because your guided group is a team, but you never tie into a rope with anyone else.

你从不为任何人做保护。

You're never belaying anyone.

大家各自按自己的节奏走，有的人有向导，有的人没有。

You're all kind of going your own speed and if you're on thing and some people have a guide and some don't.

那真是一段特别奇怪的经历。

So it was a very weird experience.

如果我登顶那天没人出事，我大概会觉得这事儿特别酷，兴奋得到处跟人讲。

I can't separate, if I'd gotten to the top and no one had died that day, I would probably think it was a really cool thing and I'd be thrilled and be talking it up all the time.

说实话，攀登珠峰、参加那次远征，是我这辈子做过最糟糕的决定。

Seriously, climbing Everest, going on that expedition was the worst decision I've ever made.

这是我人生中最大的遗憾。

It's the one big regret in my life.

我真希望当初没去。

I wish I had never gone.

我也给这场混乱和悲剧添了把火。

I contributed to the chaos and the tragedy.

我得了严重的创伤后应激障碍，自己一直不知道，直到二十年后我开始和一群阿富汗战争老兵一起参加团体治疗，才意识到这一点。

I had severe PTSD that I didn't even know about twenty years till I started going to group therapy with a bunch of Afghanistan war veterans.

他们直接指出我当时的状态有多糟糕。

They pointed out how fucked up I was.

所以，要是我当初没去珠穆朗玛峰，也没写这本书，我的日子会好过得多。

So going to Everest, I would be much better off if I'd never gone there and never written this book.

既然已经去过了，我很庆幸自己写了那本书。

Having gone, I'm glad I wrote the book.

我不太清楚。

I don't know.

说实话，听到你这么说我有点意外。我不是对你经历的个人悲剧感到惊讶，而是那本书畅销了好多年。

I mean, I find that surprising to hear in a way because, you know, not that I'm surprised by the the personal tragedy involved in the the whole experience, but, you know, I mean, it was a best selling book for years.

现在都三十周年了。

It's the thirtieth anniversary.

这本书到现在还是畅销书。

It's, like, still a best selling book.

说真的，某种程度上，它成就了你的整个职业生涯。

It's like I mean, it's it's made your whole career in some ways.

不过说来奇怪，你写过那么多畅销书，这本也就只是其中之一罢了。

I mean, though actually weirdly you've had so many bestselling books that it's kind of just like one of one of many.

但它确实是你写作生涯中非常重要的一部分。

But it's like, it's such a big part of your writing life.

你会真的愿意把这一切都抹去吗？

It's like, would you really take that all back?

当然，我一秒都不会犹豫。

Absolutely, in a second.

每个人都想找那个导致悲剧的唯一原因。

Everyone's looking for the one thing that caused the tragedy.

其实没有单一的原因，而是有二十个因素，只要其中一个没发生，我们可能都活下来了。

There wasn't one thing, there was 20 things that any one of which if hadn't happened, we might've all lived.

我们上面所有人都助长了混乱和拥挤的局面。

So all of us up there contributed to the chaos and the crowding.

是的，我和大家一样，也有责任。

So yeah, I was partly responsible like everyone.

幸存者内疚可不是轻飘飘的事。

And survivor's guilt is a heavy thing.

我嘴上不承认，但其实我严重到不行。

I wouldn't admit I had it, but I did big time.

它长期严重破坏了我和我妻子的关系。

And it really messed up my relationship with my wife for a long time.

是的，我一直艰难地试图面对珠峰上发生的那些事。

So yeah, I have struggled mightily to deal with what happened on Everest.

我想，其他在山上的人也一样，都在挣扎。

As I think many others, I look at some of the other people who were up there, they too have struggled.

说来奇怪，尼尔·比德曼还一次次重返珠峰。

I mean, and in funny ways, Neil Beiderman keeps going back to Everest.

他是斯科特·费舍尔团队的第三号人物，救了最多的人。

He was the number three guy on Scott Fisher's team who was responsible for saving the most lives.

他把斯科特·费舍尔的队员从山上安全带到了南坳。

He got Scott Fisher's people down from the mountain to the South Call.

阿纳托利在他们迷路时救了他们，但真正把阿纳托利带下山的是尼尔·贝德尔曼。

Anatoli rescued them when they were lost out there, but Neil Beidleman is the one who got him down to the call.

所以阿纳托利当之无愧是珠峰英雄，尼尔·贝德尔曼也同样配得上这个称号。

So both of them Anatoli deserved, is deservedly considered the hero of Everest, but so is Neil Beidleman.

还有我的向导，罗布·霍尔团队里唯一活下来的，毕竟当时发生了那种事。

So is my groom, the only surviving guide on Rob Hall's team because, I mean, this shit that happened.

我下山的时候状态极差，已经一个半小时没用氧气了。

Beck Weathers, I'm on my way down all fucked up from being an hour and a half without any supplemental oxygen.

我还得再往下走一千六百英尺，突然有个家伙抖掉身上的雪，原来是贝克·韦瑟斯，他已经在那儿坐了十个小时，眼睛看不见了。

And I've got 1,600 more feet to go down and there's some guy shakes off the snow and it's Beck Weathers has been sitting there for ten hours because he's blind.

我就说，好吧，我来带你下山。

And I said, well, I'll be your guide.

我来当他的眼睛往下走，但他需要有人用短绳拉着他。

I'll be your eyes down, but he needed someone to short rope him.

那个人就是我的向导。

So that was my groom.

我的向导贝克·威瑟斯个子很高。

So my groom, Beck Weathers is a big guy.

你处在这种地形上，一旦滑倒就必死无疑。

You're on this terrain that if you fall, you're going to die.

那里没有固定绳索，他正用短绳拉着贝克，而贝克是瞎的。

There's no fixed ropes and he's short roping him and Beck is blind.

他每一步都踩空，整个人被拽着往深渊里掉。

So he keeps stepping off into the void and jerking Groom.

整整一千六百英尺的垂直距离，他一个人撑住了这个二百磅重的人，救了他一命。

I mean, Groom for 1,600 vertical feet was holding up this two hundred pound guy and he saved his life.

贝克被放弃过三次，至少两三次，可没人提过向导的功劳。

I mean, Beck got left for dead three times, two or three times, but no one gives Groom credit for that.

那里确实有一些英雄。

There were some heroes there.

古鲁是其中之一，不，博德曼是，阿纳托利也是。

Groom was one of them, No, Boderman was one, Anatoli was one.

还有其他人，但也有不少人只是庆幸自己活了下来。

There were others, but there was also a lot of people who just were grateful to have survived.

那简直是一场噩梦。

That was a nightmare.

5月10日晚上，我拖着疲惫不堪的身体回到营地，外面正刮着猛烈的风暴。

I got back to camp totally exhausted on the night of May 10, this raging storm.

我以为大家都没事。

I thought I'm fine.

所有人都没事。

Everyone's fine.

我这辈子从来没这么累过。

I've never been so tired in my life.

但第二天早上我才知道，有十二个人失踪了，还有不少人已经去世了。

But in the morning I find out there's 12 people missing or something and some number of people dead.

罗布·霍尔还困在南峰上，你知道的，动不了了。

And Rob Hall is still up on the South Summit, you know, stuck there.

那真是一场噩梦。

It was a nightmare.

这些人死了，那个人也死了，他又死了。

All these people, he's dead, she's dead, he's dead.

我们当时还在高处，却没有一个身体健康的向导。

And we're still up there now without a guide who's healthy.

我在两万六千英尺的高度待了整整三个晚上。

You know, I spent three nights at 26,000 feet.

等我们终于下山时，大家都像刚从战场上下来的伤员，浑身是伤，精疲力尽。

And when we finally went down, it was, you know, just this a bunch of like ravaged, you know, war victims.

情况太惨了。

It was grim.

那真是一段极其沉重的经历。

It was a really grim experience.

你是怎么在过去的三十年里，一点一点走出那段阴影的？

How did you, you know, slowly work past that over the last thirty years?

我的意思是，我不想说‘放下’，但你到底是怎么继续生活的？

I mean, how do you I don't wanna say get over that, but like how how do you live with that?

我学到了很多关于悲伤与悲剧的事。

I I learned a lot about grief and tragedy.

一年半之后，我和安迪·哈里斯关系特别近，他是罗布·霍尔团队里的第三号人物。

A year and a half later, I was really close to Andy Harris, the number three guy in Rob Hollstein.

罗布、安迪和道格·汉森这三位客户，都在高山上遇难了。

Both Rob, Andy, and Doug Hansen were the clients, died way up high in the mountain.

所以1998年，我和妻子一起，带着安迪·哈里斯的父母和道格·汉森的妹妹，又回到了珠峰。

And so in 'ninety eight, in the '8, I went back to Everest with my wife, with Andy Harris's parents, Doug Hansen's sister.

我们回到大本营，建了一座庄严的纪念塔，开始直面悲伤，也为他们立下纪念。

And we went back to base camp and built this beautiful Chorton and just started to deal with the grief and make this memorial.

你心想，好吧，这下总该能放下了。

You think, okay, there'll be closure.

但根本放不下。

There was no closure.

做这件事没错，可悲伤就是挥之不去，没什么用。

It was a good thing to do, but it just the grief, it didn't really help to grieve.

我一直否认自己得了创伤后应激障碍。

And so I was in denial that I had PTSD.

我整天都火气很大。

I was angry all the time.

动不动就冲我老婆吼。

I would be barking at my wife.

她说：你得找人帮帮你。

She'd say, you need some help.

我回她：别烦我，让我一个人待着。

I go, fuck, leave me alone.

我不需要什么心理治疗。

I don't need no therapy.

真的。

Literally.

我当时真是傻。

I mean, I was stupid.

所以我最终写了一本关于帕特·托马林的书，他是那位在阿富汗被友军误杀的橄榄球运动员。

So I finally I wrote a book about Pat Tomlin, the football player who was killed by friendly fire in Afghanistan.

为了写这本书，我在阿富汗随作战部队待了五个月。

And for that, I embedded with combat troops for five months in Afghanistan.

你在阿富汗随军待了五个月？

You embedded for five months in Afghanistan?

是的。

Yeah.

和特种部队一起

With special forces and

我还不知道这事。

I didn't know that.

是的。

Yeah.

但说真的，比起攀岩，那地方看起来安全多了。

And it seemed much less dangerous than climbing.

不过，等我回来后，我写了这本书，讲的是帕特·蒂尔曼，还有博尔德县的退伍军人们成立的一个叫‘退伍军人互助’的组织。

But in any case, when I got back, I wrote this book about Pat Tillman and the local veterans in Boulder County had this group called Veterans Helping Veterans Now.

他们跟我说：嘿，我们每周二晚上都有个小组讨论会。

And they said, man, we got this group therapy every Tuesday night.

你该来参加，对你有帮助。

You should come, it would benefit you.

我说了，我才不需要什么该死的心理辅导。

What do I don't need no fucking therapy.

他们连续两年一直劝我。

And for like two years they badgered me.

最后我只好说，行，你们别再烦我了，我去三次，但你们得答应我，以后再也不提什么团体治疗了。

And I finally said, okay, if you'll just quit badgering me, I'll come three times if you promise never to mention group therapy again.

我去参加了，一连去了七年，这几乎是我这辈子最棒的经历，真的管用。

I went and I went for the next seven years and it was the best thing that ever happened to me almost because it worked.

我开始明白，不是说你就彻底放下了，而是你学会了怎么面对愤怒，怎么控制自己的情绪。

And I started, you know, it's not like you get over it, but you deal with your anger and you learn how to manage stuff.

所以，事情就这么发生了。

So yeah, that happened.

我并没有放弃攀岩。

I, you know, I didn't quit climbing.

我回来后的第二年十二月，就和亚历克斯·洛、康拉德、戈登·威茨伊还有迈克·格雷伯一起去了一趟女王莫德地，那次我们成功首登了那座两千英尺高的岩石塔，叫罗克内文。

It's like right after I got back the next December, I went to Queen Maud Land with Alex Lowe and Conrad and Gordon Wiltsey and Mike Graber and Gordon, you know, it was just a great trip to make the first ascent of that Rockekneven, that 2,000 foot tower.

那趟旅行特别棒。

And that was great.

它真的帮了我。

That helped me.

攀岩帮了我。

Climbing helped me.

我开始更多地去攀岩，到了五十岁出头的时候，攀岩水平达到了顶峰——因为那会儿我头一回认真去健身房训练，觉得这事儿挺安全，也特别有意思。

I started just rock climbing more and I sort of reached my peak rock climber, as at the age of 50, in my early fifties, just because it was for the first time I was training at a gym, you know, and actually taking it serious and it was seen relatively safe and it was really fun.

这就是关键。

That's the thing.

我真的很爱这项运动。

I love the sport.

如果没有风险，攀岩就不是攀岩了，但危险真的把我搞垮了。

It wouldn't be what it is without the risk, but danger really fucked me up.

我还没能和这个和解。

So I haven't reconciled that.

我也不知道自己能不能真正和解。

And I don't know that I ever will.

这就是人生。

That's life.

我去珠峰的时候，对死亡简直一无所知。

When I went to Everest, I was so naive about death.

我从来没参加过任何葬礼。

I'd never even been to a funeral.

到了营地第二周，我们第一次往洛子壁脚下走，路过一具尸体，两条腿从冰里露出来，我当时就傻了。

And then the second week on the base camp, our first trip up to the base of Lodzey Face, you walk by a dead body, legs poking out of the ice and you go, Woah!

真的被吓到了。

You get freaked out.

到了洛子壁脚下，又看见一具尸体从冰里露出来。

You get to the base of the Lodzey Face and there's another dead body coming out of the ice.

我当时就想，这到底是怎么回事？

And that to me like, What?

我们到底在这儿干什么？

What are we doing here?

但下次再经过时，就只是瞥一眼，哦，是他啊，真可怜，然后继续往上爬。

But by the next time up, you just glance at it, Oh yeah, there's that guy, poor guy and keep climbing.

这真的太奇怪了。

It's totally weird.

听起来特别冷血，事实也确实如此。

And it sounds really callous and it is.

五月十一号早上，我在南坳醒来，听说那么多人失踪或死了，整个人都懵了，感觉像在做梦。

When I woke up on May 11 on the South Call and learned all these people were missing or dead, I went into this, it was just a surreal experience.

我有种灵魂出窍的感觉，心里突然筑起了一道墙。

I felt an out of body experience where this armor went up.

那时候就想着，行了，现在只能靠求生本能了。

It was like, okay, you're in survival mode now.

别去想谁死了的事。

You know, don't think about anyone dying.

那些事以后再说。

You can't deal with that later.

你根本顾不上难过，也想不起那些已经失去的人。

You don't even, you know, you don't grieve, you don't think about the people you lost.

我就进入了那种状态，它确实帮我在那场灾难中活了下来，但这种状态是有代价的。

Just, and I got in that mode and it helped keep me alive, but you pay a price for that.

我觉得每个人都是这样，比如我和我一起参加心理治疗的那些士兵，他们说，当亲眼看到战友死去，或者亲手杀了人的时候，他们也是一样的。

I think everyone, I mean, the soldiers I was in group therapy with, they talk about they were the same way when they see their buddies get killed or they'd kill people.

这正是我今天坐在这里的原因。

They just, well, that's what I'm here for.

但二十年后，他们半夜会突然惊醒，尖叫着被那些记忆折磨。

But twenty years later, you know, they wake up screaming in the middle of the night because of stuff like that.

我不确定登山者会不会这样。

And I don't know if climbers do that.

我不会半夜惊醒，但我确实常常在醒来时，心里特别难受，想到那些我失去的人。

I don't wake up in the middle of the night, but I definitely wake up, you know, feeling really shitty about the people I've lost.

你刚才说，你必须穿上一层盔甲才能安全下山，我一直在想，

I I wonder you just said that, you know, you had to put a sort of armor on to get down the mountain safely.

真正的难题在于，你该怎么知道什么时候该脱下这层盔甲？

I mean, is the challenge knowing how and when you can take the armor back off?

因为某种程度上，说到创伤后应激障碍，问题就在于你根本没把那层盔甲脱下来，一直停留在求生模式里。

Because, like, in some ways when you're talking about PTSD, it seems like the challenge is you just never take the armor back off, that you just stay in that survival mode.

关键是这样。

Here's the thing.

我学到的是，你必须把这层盔甲脱掉。

What I've learned is you have to take that armor off.

你得让自己变得脆弱。

You have to become vulnerable.

你必须这么做，至少对我而言是这样，我没法替你的关系下定论。

You have to if you wanna have for me, I can't speak for your relationship.

你得重新学会哭泣。

You have to learn to cry again.

我以前根本不允许自己哭。

I mean, I wouldn't let myself cry.

我从来没哭过。

I never cried.

后来我去看电影，看着看着就哭了，后来我才明白，我不是为电影里的情节哭。

Then I'd go to some movie and I'd cry and I realized I wasn't crying about the movie.

我是为安迪·哈里斯，或者道格·汉森，还有其他人哭的。

Was crying about Andy Harris, you know, or Doug Hansen or whoever.

那种感觉真的很好。

And that felt really good.

我得重新学会怎么哭。

I had to learn how to cry.

你写的每一本书都是巨大的投入。

Each of your books are huge commitments.

你是怎么决定要全身心投入到这样一个故事里的？

Like, when do you know that you're willing to fully commit to a story like that?

你是怎么深入到你写过的那些书里的？

Like, how do you go so deep into the books that you've that you've written?

说实话，只要我有能力负担得起，也就是从写完《荒野生存》开始，我就基本不再为杂志写稿了，只有极少数例外。

Well, I mean, as soon as I could afford to, which means as soon as I wrote Into the Wild, I quit writing for magazines pretty much with a few exceptions.

因为写书让我明白，这才是我想做的事。

Cause books I realized this is what I want to do.

我想深入挖掘。

I want to go deep.

《荒野生存》和《进入空气稀薄地带》最初都是文章，但我后来把它们扩展成书，因为写完文章后，我总觉得意犹未尽。

Know, like Into The Wild was an article, Into Thin Air was an article that I turned into books because when I finished the articles I felt like it was a rush.

我有些地方搞错了。

I got stuff wrong.

我没有挖得足够深。

I didn't go deep enough.

所以当我能决定花三到七年时间专心写一本书时，我简直兴奋极了。

So I was thrilled when I could say, okay, I'm going to spend the next three to seven years on this book.

我特别享受做研究的过程。

I love the research.

但我讨厌动笔写作。

I hate writing.

我的意思是，我真的特别讨厌写作。

I mean, it's not, I really hate writing.

每次坐到键盘前，哪怕到现在，我都会陷入写作瓶颈，但我就是爱做研究。

I have writer's block every single time I sit down even today in front of a keyboard, but I love the research.

所以这才是关键。

And that's why, yeah.

我想写帕特·蒂尔曼的故事，但我对军队一无所知。

Mean, so I wanted to write about Pat Tillman, but I didn't know anything about the armed forces.

所以在写提案之前，我就先去阿富汗待了两个月，亲身体验一下战场是什么样子。

So before I even wrote a proposal or anything, I embedded for two months in Afghanistan just to see what it would be like to be in combat.

回来之后，我见了帕特·蒂尔曼的遗孀，想问问她能不能让我使用他的日记和其他资料。

And then I got back from that trip and met with Pat Tillman's widow to see if she would let me use his journals and stuff that I needed.

她答应之后，我才拿到出书合同，又回去了三个月。

And when she said, Yeah, then I got a book contract and went back for another three months.

本来计划只待十天，结果待了整整三个月。

And it wasn't supposed to be three months, it was supposed to be ten days.

但我飞过去了，跟老婆说好圣诞节前就回来，结果搭上了一架直升机，去了巴基斯坦边境一个正在交火的地方——就是帕特·蒂尔曼牺牲的那个地方。

But I flew over, I told my wife I'd be back by Christmas, but I caught a ride on a helicopter that went to this place that's in the middle of a combat on the Pakistani border where Pat Tillman was.

我一下直升机，他们就说：‘记者？我们这儿从来没见过记者。’

And I got off the helicopter and they go, Hey, journalists, we never see journalists here.

欢迎登船，来我们这个前哨基地吧。

Welcome aboard, come into our FOB here.

我说：是的，我就待十天。

And I said, Yeah, I'm only going to be here ten days.

结果他回我：‘你以为是这样吗？’

And then he goes, That's what you think.

原来那架直升机每周都会绕圈飞，但几乎从不在这儿降落，因为这儿老挨火箭弹和迫击炮袭击。

It turns out the helicopter would fly the ring route every week, but it almost never would land at this base because it was always getting rocketed and mortared.

能不能降落，得由机长说了算。

And the captain of the ship decides whether he lands or not.

军队就是这样运作的。

That's the way the army works.