#033 Building a $15K/Month MVP Agency with Janu Lingeswaran

我记得去年我发过一条帖子，说设计师们评论一下你们的作品集，结果有100个人留言，你可以去看他们的作品，然后给他们发消息。

And I remember last year I did post, hey, designers, comment your portfolio, and we have 100 people commenting, and you can look to them and then you can message them.

有时候我会看Upwork，尤其是找专业人士的时候，因为你可以搜索你需要的关键词，找到所有具备这种技能组合的人，比如。

And sometimes I look on Upwork, especially when I look for specialists, because you can search up the keywords you need and find all the people who have this combination of text text, for example.

Fiverr很难用。

Fiverr, Fiverr's difficult.

我在Fiverr上有过很糟糕的经历。

On Fiverr, had very bad experience.

他们用各种奇怪的方式想骗你。

They try to scam you with so many weird experiences.

他们里面可能也有很多好人，但我经历过不好的事，所以再也不碰Fiverr了。

They're probably also very good people, but I had bad experience, so I don't touch Fiverr anymore.

但是的，我喜欢Fiverr，也喜欢Twitter。

But yeah, I like Fiverr, I like Twitter.

甚至直接问人，对吧？

Even asking people, right?

你可以发一个Instagram动态，写上‘我在找人’，会有人回复你。

You probably make an Instagram story with, Hey, I'm looking for someone, and there will be people who will answer you.

我遇到的问题是，我的人脉通常是德国自由职业者，所以当我有自由职业项目时，如果还要为自己的独立开发者项目雇人，利润就会是零，这会是个问题。

Yeah, the issue that I have is that my network is usually German freelancers, so while I have a freelancing project, I might and then have to hire someone for my own Indie Hacker project, the margin would be zero, which would be an issue.

但特别是在ECA项目中，Twitter非常合适，因为。

But especially for in the in the ECA project, Twitter is perfect because Yeah.

他们也在ECA中，所以理解这种态度和规则。

They are also in the ECA, so they understand the attitude and they understand the game.

是的。

Yeah.

有很多开发者正在寻找工作。

There are so many developers looking for to for work.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这可能是我近期需要考虑的事情，因为我真的不想放弃那些现在帮我们省钱的东西。

That might be something I have to consider in the near future, because it's just I don't wanna let go of things that are very where we save money right now.

我们都清楚，现在的经济状况并不理想，是的。

We all know that we're not in the best economy right now Yep.

但还是想为自己的内部黑客项目做点什么。

And still want to do something about the inner hacker projects.

我从未把自己当成产品经理，但也许我得朝这个方向稍微转变一下。

I've never seen myself as a product manager, but maybe I have to move a little in that direction.

对我来说，这一切始于我开始把自己视为产品经理的时候，之前我所有事情都是自己做，后来在全职工作的同时开始雇人，逐步推进一切。

For me, it all started when I started seeing myself as a product manager, and before I did all by myself, Then I hired while having a full time job and started everything.

如果没有雇人，我不可能达到今天这个地步。

Like, without hiring, I wouldn't be there where I am.

对你来说，这个转变是怎么发生的？当你刚开始这么做的时候？

What was that transition for you, like, when you started out doing that?

即使到现在，我也想保持这个问题开放，因为我真的想听听你的想法。

And even now Yeah, I'm trying to keep that question open because I just wanna hear what you think.

你指的是哪个转变？

Which transition are you talking about?

从自己一个人做开发，转变为不再主要做开发工作，只负责销售、营销之类的事务。

The transition from being a developer, doing everything yourself, to not doing most of the development work, only doing the sales and the marketing and stuff like that.

这个转变很自然，因为去年夏天我不得不招聘，那时我手头项目太多，还有全职工作，根本没时间坐下来写代码，而且我还要做很多咨询工作，因为我要和客户开会，我不属于任何开发团队。

It came very natural because I had to hire last summer because I had so many projects, I had my full time job and I couldn't sit there and code, and I had to do so many consulting, because I had meetings with them, because I wasn't part of a developer team.

我为一家公司开发了一个最小可行产品，那时我必须和他们沟通，要和他们保持互动。

I developed an MVP for a company, and there I have to talk with them, I have to be in a loop with them.

这占用了我大量时间，理解他们、向他们解释各种事情，根本不可能坐下来写代码。

So that takes up so many time, and understanding them, explaining them stuff, and it wasn't possible to sit there and code.

雇人对我来说非常自然，而且这对我而言也很顺理成章，因为我的全职工作就是技术产品经理，那时我甚至已经不再做开发了。

It was very natural to hire someone, and it came also very natural to me because my day job was being a technical product manager, and I wasn't even a developer in my day job anymore.

所以，你其实已经完成了这个转变，甚至在为自己做之前，就已经在全职工作中完成了。

Okay, so you already did the transition, maybe even for your full time job before you did it for yourself.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这可能会有帮助。

That might help.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这主要是MVP代理业务，我们也会谈谈其中的一个方面。

So that's the MVP agency mostly, and we're gonna talk about the one one aspect of it as well.

嗯。

But Mhmm.

我认为这个方面——SEO——对你接下来要做的样板间项目更有趣。

I think that aspect, which is SEO, is more interesting for the next project that you're doing, which is the the boilerplate hub.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为你也一开始提到过，你自己并没有一个样板。

So just because you said it in the beginning as well, you don't have a boilerplate yourself.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这个只是为不同产品、不同框架等已有的脚手架提供一个集中的平台，对吧。

This is just the hub for already existing boilerplates for different products, right, for different frameworks and stuff like that.

没错。

Exactly.

我只是做了一些整理。

I just curated.

嗯。

Mhmm.

知道这一点。

Know that.

这个产品是怎么诞生的？

How did that product came to be?

你是怎么想到要做这个集散平台的？

How did you get the idea to do that hub?

这件事发生在两年前，我刚发现印度的卡片社区时，当时我看到了很多SaaS模板，心想：为什么不把它们整理成一个列表呢？

It happened in the beginning when I found the India card community, like two years ago, I think, and I saw a lot of SaaS Boilerplate, and my mind was like, Okay, why not do even list of them?

一开始只是一个列表，我觉得我并没有发布过。

And it was a list in the beginning, and I don't think I posted them.

我只是把它保存在电脑里，去年我又在电脑里找到了它，然后就把它发了出去。

I just kept it on my computer, and I think last year I found it again on my computer, and then I just posted it.

我发布之后，发了一个链接，当天就做了联盟营销销售。

I published it and then I post a link and I made affiliate sale on the same day.

我当时为它们设置了联盟链接，心想：哦，这东西第一天就能赚钱，看来我得好好关注一下。

I had like affiliate links for them and I was like, Oh, that's something which makes money on the first day, so it's something I should look into.

去年，整个SaaS模板生态系统社区不断发展壮大。

And the whole SaaS boilerplate ecosystem community grew and grew last year.

有太多人正在开发SaaS模板，有些质量很差，有些却很不错，于是我感觉有责任去筛选出那些高质量的模板。

There were so many people building SaaS Boilerplates, and some of them were not good in quality and some were good, so I saw it as a mission to curate the ones who are good in quality.

我还向很多人索要了他们的代码仓库访问权限，这很难，因为他们不愿意分享，但还是有不少人给了我访问权限，他们的代码库非常值得一看。

I even asked a lot of them for access to their repository, which was very difficult because they don't want to give it away, but a lot of people gave me access to their code bases, which are very interesting to look into.

所以你根本不需要买下所有产品，因为那样会变得非常贵。

So you didn't even have to buy all of them because that would like No, I don't would get pretty expensive.

或者甚至使用自己的联盟链接去购买模板，我知道有些人会这么做。

Or even use your I know that some people use their own affiliate link to buy to buy the Boilerplate.

但通常这种情况也会被发现。

Usually, that gets that that gets found out as well.

是的。

Yeah.

我听过很多关于这方面的故事。

I heard so many stories about it.

但不，我尽量与模板的创作者保持良好联系。

But, no, I try to be in good contact with the Boilerplate makers.

至少对我来说，我的经验是，你也不是唯一一个想到这一点的人。

And I at least for me, like, the experience has been that you are also not the only person that has thought about this.

所以还有其他模板目录。

So there are other boilerplate directories.

而且，就像你的机构一样，你身处一个竞争激烈的市场，很多人都在做这件事。

And again, a little bit like your agency as well, you're in a crowded market, a lot of people are doing this.

那么，在两个竞争都非常激烈的产品领域中，你如何依然脱颖而出呢？

How do you still come out on top again for two products who are very crowded markets?

我经常遇到这种关于竞争激烈市场的问题，但当你真正身处其中时，并不会觉得拥挤。

I get this a lot, this crowded market thing, but when you are on the field, it doesn't feel crowded.

我能看到其他的目录，但你必须忽略它们。

I see the other directories, but you have to ignore them.

我知道有些人一看见有很多人做和自己一样的事就会感到压力很大，但我只是置之不理。

I know people who get very stressed when they see, Oh, there are many people who are doing the same as me, but I just ignore them.

有几个Boilerplate目录我偶尔会去看看，因为我对他们的做法感到有趣，但我只是专注于自己的业务。

There are a few Boilerplate directors I sometimes look into because I find it interesting how they do it, but I just try to focus on my business.

我努力让寻找Boilerplate的人来到我的网站，并在我的网站上提供优质的Boilerplate。

I try to get people who are looking for Boilerplates on my website, and I try to get good Boilerplates on my website.

所以我不仅专注于营销、设计酷炫的筛选功能，还为目录做一点产品工作，同时享受过程，把它当成一场游戏。

So I'm not just focusing on marketing, building cool filtering, doing a little bit of product work for the directory, and I try to have fun and see it as a game.

我觉得有时候我对独立开发的态度太过严肃了，总觉得自己必须打造一个非常复杂的产品，才能配得上所谓的增长、MR之类的，可能我确实想得太严肃、太复杂了。

I think sometimes I try to I think my approach to indie hacking has been too serious, always thinking that I have to create a very complex product to be worth of the whatever the growth, the the MR, whatever, and maybe it's a little it's taking a little too serious and too complex.

也许多找点乐趣会是个不错的主意。

Maybe the having having a little more fun would be an idea.

是的。

Yeah.

关于 Boilerplate Hub 的推广，主要是靠 SEO 吗？

Regarding the whole marketing of Boilerplate Hub, is it mostly driven SEO?

主要是靠 Twitter 账号带来流量吗？

Is it mostly a Twitter account that gets the traffic?

你们在 Solid，一月份产品爆火的时候，连一条推文都没发过。

You at Solid, you didn't tweet even saying in January the thing exploded.

一月份的流量其实非常好。

Like, the traffic has been very good in January.

你们当时用的是哪些推广渠道？

What were your marketing channels there?

比如，主要的流量来源是谷歌和Reddit，因为我经常在Reddit上发帖，悄悄把Boilerplate的链接嵌入到指南或其他人们感兴趣的内容里。

Like, the exploding channel was mainly Google and a lot of on Reddit, because I post a lot on Reddit and sneak like links from Boilerplate into guides or other interesting stuff people want to see.

所以，主要是社交媒体和搜索引擎。

So, yeah, mainly social and search.

嗯。

Mhmm.

搜索引擎指的是也做广告，但只是普通的SEO吗？

And search in the sense of also doing ads, but only just usual SEO?

自然搜索。

Organic search.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你是怎么做到的？

How do you do that?

你有没有采用某种程序化SEO的方法，比如利用你网站上不同的模板生成内容块？

Do you have any kind of programmatic SEO approach there, doing blocks with the different the different boilerplates that you have on your site?

没错。

Exactly.

比如，每个模板都要有一个详细的页面。

Like, every boilerplate, have a detailed page.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但主要流量来自分类页面，比如最佳 PHP 模板、最佳 Node 模板、最佳 JS 模板、最佳 JSON 模板。

But the main traffic comes from the category pages, like best PHP boilerplate, best, you know, Node.

我也有个博客，但带来的流量不多。

Js boilerplate, JSON boilerplate, and I have a blog, but it doesn't bring that much traffic in.

主要是分类页面，最近我做了个‘十二天十二工具’挑战，你看到的那个，带来了大量流量。

It's mainly the category pages, and recently I had this 12 tools in twelve days challenge, when you saw it, that brings a lot of traffic.

并不是所有流量都高质量。

Not all of the traffic is high in quality.

它们不会转化为主页面的流量，但其中一些，尤其是开发者工具类的，带来了非常不错的流量。

They don't convert in traffic for the main page, but some of them, especially the developer tools, they bring very nice traffic.

我还没仔细查看，但你刚才提到的‘十二天十二个工具’，主要是你开发的开发者工具吗？这些工具带来了流量，然后可能转化为模板的销售？

And I haven't checked in detail, but you just mentioned that the twelve twelve tools in twelve weeks, is it mostly developer tools that you build there, and those are then converting into views and then maybe into sales of the boilerplates?

首先，是‘十二天十二个工具’，不是十二周。

First of all, it's 12 tools in 12, not weeks.

哦，抱歉，是的，对的。

Oh, sorry, yeah, yeah.

我一开始完全是随机做的，但后来最后几天，我想着得聚焦在那些想搭建SaaS的人身上，所以我还做了SaaS计算器之类的东西。

And I started out very randomly, but then later on, the last few days I was like, okay, I have to focus on tools for people who are looking to build a SaaS, so I also have SaaS calculators and stuff like that.

我做了一个代码转图片转换器，你可以输入代码，然后生成一张漂亮的截图。

I have one code to image converter, which you can put in your code and get a beautiful screenshot of it.

我用了个奇怪的术语，因为那是能带来流量的SEO关键词，但竞争没那么激烈。

I use this weird term because that was the SEO keyword which gets traffic but wasn't that competitive.

我几乎为每个工具都做了SEO研究。

So I did SEO research for every tool, almost every tool.

有些工具我本来希望能走红，但没成功。

For some tools, I hoped to get viral, which didn't work out.

特别是，我做了一个工具，可以把 GitHub 仓库转换成表情包生成器。

Especially, I built one tool which was a GitHub repository to meme generator.

你可以输入你的 GitHub 仓库链接，然后生成一个相关的表情包。

You could put in your GitHub repo URL and get a meme of it.

这个工具完全没有火起来，而且也不适合 SEO，因为根本没人会搜索它。

It didn't go viral at all, and it's not good for SEO because no one looks up for it.

但那些 SEO 工具每天都在带来流量，而且源源不断。

But the SEO tools, they are getting traffic every day, It doesn't stop.

我一直很惊讶，这些居然还能奏效，因为我觉得 Google 现在已经被 AI 内容淹没了。

I'm always, like, surprised that all of this still works because I feel like Google is so overwhelmed with AI content right now.

但我刚测试了一下，我在 Google 上搜索了“最佳 PHP 模板”，结果你排在第四位。

But I just tested this, and I wrote best PHP Boilerplate on Google, and you're the fourth the fourth rank there, the fourth result.

所以这些方法真的还有效，对吧？

So this all works, right?

2025 年，人们仍然可以在这方面投资，对吧？

This is still something that people can invest in 2025, right?

这完全没死。

It's not dead in any way.

对，百分之百。

No, 100%.

我不知道SEO是在衰退还是不是。

I don't know if SEO is declining or not.

我看过不同的图表，但这是一个有效的渠道。

I saw different graphs, but it's a working channel.

人们在使用Google，所以它仍然有效。

People are using Google, so it will work.

我甚至从ChatGPT那里获得流量。

And I even get traffic from ChatGPT.

虽然不多，但有一点，这是因为我在Google上排名靠前。

It's not that much, but it's a little bit, and it's because I rank on Google.

当ChatGPT在Google上搜索时，这确实是一个不错的渠道。

When ChatGPT looks up on Google, yeah, it's a very nice channel.

而且开发免费工具也有效，因为人们会访问你的网站并与之互动，使用你的工具，这对谷歌来说也是你网站的一个良好信号。

And building free tools works also because people are getting on your website, and they're engaging with your website, that you're using your tool, which is also a good sign to Google about your website.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这正是我做得不够多的地方，我一直有点怀疑它是否能排名，尽管我从未真正认真尝试过。

I think that's that's just something that I haven't done enough of, and I'm always, like, skeptic that it will rank for some reason, even though I have never actually tried it for serious.

我需要多做一些SEO工作，因为我开始做营销了，我正在销售的工具现在可以说是非正式上线了，但仍有一些粗糙的地方，我想在全面发布产品之前先打磨一下，先和一些人测试。

I need to do more SEO stuff, and because I started marketing, like, Repodcasted, the tool that I'm selling is now, let's say, unofficially live, There's still some rough edges that I want to smooth out before going like full launch and product and launch and stuff like that, just trying with some people.

我一直喜欢像你那样走Reddit评论这条路，对吧？就是进入你喜欢的社区，参与其中，甚至写一些与你的产品无关的评论，只是在真正合适、对用户真正有价值的地方自然地融入。

And I always liked to go the the route of Reddit comments like you did, right, that you're going into, like, into the communities that you like, participating there, even writing comments that have nothing to do with your product and just inserting it in the like, in in places where it actually belongs, right, where it actually has some value to the people.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Exactly.

我确实做过一些这样的事，但没有真正做SEO部分，而我其实应该去做。

That's something I've done, but I haven't really done the SEO part, which I should do.

我有个问题，因为每个人的做法都不一样，也许你也是，我们总在寻找价格没Ahref那么贵的产品，你是怎么做关键词研究的？

And I have one question because everyone does it differently, maybe you as well, and we always look for products that are maybe not as expensive as Ahref, but how are you doing the keyword research?

你是直接付Ahref的费用，还是有别的做法？

Are you just paying the Ahref price, or do you do something different?

不是。

No.

我用的是一个叫SEO工具的东西。

I use it's called SEO stuff.

它也是来自一个

It's also from an

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

我用它来做关键词研究，因为你是按积分付费的，我很多个月前就买了积分，现在还有剩，相比月度订阅便宜多了。

I use that for keyword research because you pay, like, for credits, and I bought credits a lot of months ago, and I still have them, and it's very cheap compared to paying the monthly subscription.

我不是SEO专家。

I'm not an SEO expert.

我其实刚接触SEO不久。

I'm very new into SEO actually.

我大概六个月前开始关注SEO，并尝试阅读所有相关的内容。

I started maybe six months ago thinking about SEO, and I tried to read everything about it.

这很简单。

It's simple.

你需要寻找与你的品牌匹配的关键词，并尝试创建有价值的产品或内容。

You look for keywords which matches your brand, and you try to build a tool or content which is valuable.

你提到这一点真是太有趣了，我得在这里说明一下。

It's so funny that you mentioned this, and I have to state this here.

我们之前没聊过这个。

We didn't talk about this before.

Josie 曾经是这个播客的嘉宾，因此在听这个播客的社群里他非常有名。

Josie was a guest on this podcast, so he's very known to the community who listen to the podcast.

Josie 当初就是用SEO工具的，尽管现在他已经卖掉了这个产品，但Josie Segev正是SEO工具的原始创建者，所以我也有积分并一直在使用。

Josie was here with SEO stuff even though now he has sold the product, but Josy Segev was the original creator of SEO stuff, which is why I also have credits and also use it.

我总是对其他是否存在更好的东西感兴趣，那也很棒。

And I'm always interested if something else is out there, it's also very good.

但关于SEO这块，我没有任何报酬。

But SEO stuff, I'm not paid in any way.

我没有联盟链接。

I don't have an affiliate link.

这是一个非常棒的产品，可以不用花大笔钱来做这件事。

Is a very great product to do this without spending large amounts of cash.

因为和你一样，我的想法是，我不会为一个月用不了几次的东西支付99美元。

Because like you, my thought was I won't pay $99 a month for something that I don't use that much.

这根本不可持续。

It's just not sustainable.

你提到这一点真是太有趣了，但这进一步证实了我：这是目前最好的产品，即使我每周都已经在使用了，我更应该多用它。

It's so funny that you mentioned that, but it's another confirmation for me that it's the best product out there right now and I should use it more even though I already use it on a weekly basis at least.

这真是太有趣了。

That's so funny.

我也有同样的想法。

And I had the same thought.

我当时想，这行不通。

I was like, This won't work.

我不能只是随便查几个关键词，就指望能排名，然后全世界的人都会访问我的网站。我为此参加了‘12天12款工具’的挑战，试了几乎所有的工具，12款中有7款在谷歌上排名并带来了流量，而且都是很随机的流量。

I can't just look up keywords and I will rank for it and people from the whole world will land on And my I tried it out for this 12 tools in twelve days challenge, and I think almost every tool, like seven of the 12 tools are ranking on Google and bring traffic in, and very random traffic.

因为我有一个工具和我的品牌完全不相关。

Because I have one tool which is very non targeted to my brand.

它是一个AI SVG生成器。

It's an AI SVG generator.

我觉得挺有趣的是，你居然能用JGPT来生成某个东西的SVG图像，但根本行不通。

I just found it funny that you can use a JGPT to get an SVG for something, like an image, and it doesn't work.

它的效果非常差。

It's very bad in it.

我只是因为那天没时间做别的，就把它放上去了，结果它带来的流量可能是最多的。

And I just I still put it out because I had no time to build something else on the day, and that brings, I think, almost the most traffic.

每天都有这么多人使用它，甚至还会提问。

Like, are every day, so many people on it, and they are even asking questions.

他们进入支持框，问我：我可以创建无限多的SVG吗？

They go into the support box and they ask me, can I create as many SVGs as I want?

我同意。

I go for it.

虽然有使用限制，但你想怎么用就怎么用。

There's restriction, but do what you want.

我可以把它用作公司的标志吗？

Can I use it for my company as a logo?

如果你想的话，我觉得它不会是个好标志，但你完全可以随意使用。

If you want to, I don't think it will be a good logo, but you can do whatever you want.

看到这些情况真的很有趣。

And it's very funny to see it.

你已经说过，它并不针对特定人群。

People you already said it's not very targeted.

你能追踪使用这个工具的人是否发生了转化吗？

Can you track if people from that tool are converting as well?

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

比如，我会追踪所有数据，看看他们是否访问了首页，是否在浏览模板时有点击行为，但他们并没有为这个特定工具这么做。

Like, I track everything, and I see if they go to the start page, they're if clicking around for the Boilerplate, they don't do it for that specific tool.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

所以数字转化率很低，但这个工具至少看起来非常受欢迎。

So the digital conversion is terrible, but the tool at least seems to be very popular.

太棒了。

Awesome.

与SEO相关的另一件事是获取反向链接。

The other thing that usually have to do with SEO is getting backlinks.

我还没检查过Boilerplate Hub的域名评分，但我猜它肯定不是零。

I haven't checked the domain rating for Boilerplate Hub, but I imagine it's not zero.

你们在这方面策略是怎样的？

How was your strategy there?

你们做了些什么？

What did you do?

我觉得我的域名评分大概是36左右。

I think I have a domain rating of 36 or something like that.

所以非常不错，是的。

So very solid, yeah.

我从来没有专门制定过策略，只是把我的网站提交给了所有相关的目录和发布平台。

And I never had a strategy, but I just submitted my website to all relevant directories and launching platforms.

我为一些面向开发者的网站写过几篇客座博客文章，也和拥有类似目标用户群体的朋友交换过反向链接。

I have written a few guest blog articles for developer focused websites, and I also exchanged backlinks with friends who have tools with a similar target group.

我就做了这些。

That's all I did.

你是怎么找到那些开发者博客的？

How did you find the different developer blogs?

这是你临时决定的，还是有一份不错的博客列表可以去投稿？

Was it something you did on the fly, or was there a list of good blogs to go to?

不，是他们主动找我的。

No, they asked me.

都是来自印度黑客社区的人，他们中的一些人拥有非常老的网站，有十年以上历史了。我在各种会议和活动中也认识了很多印度黑客，有时他们会事后问我：嘿，你有兴趣为那些想搭建SaaS的人写点东西吗？

It's all people from the India hacker community, and some of them have websites which are very old, like ten plus years, and I meet so many India hacker also in meetings and stuff, and sometimes they ask me afterwards, hey, are you interested into writing something for a website for people who want to build a SaaS?

是的，这也能提升你的域名评分。

Yeah, and that also pumps up your domain rating.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得你这一点特别有意思。

That's something I found very interesting about you.

显然，有很多人活跃在社区中，但我总觉得我能看到一条关于你的推文，或者说是BlueSky上的帖子，说你正在Zoom或其他地方与其他独立开发者进行讨论。

Obviously, there are a lot of people that are engaged in the community, but I think there's I feel like I I can see a tweet or, sorry, now a BlueSky post about you having a discussion in in Zoom or somewhere else with another indie hacker.

这一切是怎么开始的呢？

Like, how did this all start?

你做的事情几乎和我做播客时一样，我的播客想法源于我想多和独立开发者圈子里的人聊聊。

Like, you're doing pretty much the same thing I did with the podcast, which was, my idea for the podcast came from I want to talk to more people in the indie hacker space.

你当初启动这一切的动机是什么？

What was your reason behind starting all of this?

现在进展如何？

How is it going?

你总是在和别人交谈，我觉得。

You're always talking to someone, I feel like.

是的。

Yeah.

其实，我的动机是一样的。

It was the same reasoning, actually.

我想多认识一些他们，而我当时有一份远程的全职工作，已经很少有机会接触其他人了。

I wanted to meet more of them, and I had my day job, which was remote, and I hadn't that much contact to people anymore.

我的朋友们都不住附近了，虽然我在线上认识了很多人，但从未真正与他们面对面交流过。

My friends don't live near anymore, and I met so many people online, but I never met them in a meeting.

我经常和印度黑客交流，也加入了一些群组和聊天频道。

I write a lot with India hackers, I'm in groups and chats.

然后我想，去年二月左右，有个叫伊戈尔的人，他也是个印度黑客。

And then I think last year in February or something, there's a guy who's name is Igor, he's also an India hacker.

他是一家MVP机构的成员，但还做很多其他事情。

He is also an MVP agency, but he does so many other stuff.

他邀请我参加一次会议，说：‘我觉得你挺棒的，想和你聊聊。’

He invited me to a meeting, he was like, Hey, I think you're cool, I would like to talk with you.

会后我想：‘天啊，我为什么以前从来没主动联系过别人做同样的事呢？’

After the meeting I was like, Wow, why never I contacted someone to do the same thing?

几个月后，我开始主动联系我遇到的每一个觉得不错的人，直接问：‘嘿，我们聊聊吧。’

A few months later I started contacting everyone I find like, Cool, just ask them, Hey, let's chat.

而且我觉得，从来没有人说过‘不’。

And I think no one said ever, No.

如果你和这么多人进行了这么多次会议，大家心里都在想什么？

If you have so many meetings with so many indicators, what's everyone thinking?

在所有这些对话中，你有没有注意到什么特别的东西？

What's something that you've noticed maybe in all of these discussions?

从这些对话中，你有没有发现什么共同的主题？

Is this some overall topic or something that you've noticed from all of this?

是的，他们都非常热情，如果你拿普通人来比较，他们远远超出平均水平。

Yeah, they are all very passionate, and if you take the average human, they are very over the average.

我们当然经常谈论商业和独立黑客，但我也很享受与不同人分享其他共同兴趣。

We talk obviously a lot about business and indie hacking, but I like other shared interests with different people.

有时候是运动，有时候是音乐，有时候是大量旅行。

Sometimes it's like sports, sometimes it's music, sometimes it's a lot of traveling.

他们都热爱旅行，但我觉得这非常人性化。

All of them love traveling, but I think it's very human.

但确实，他们都充满激情，非常投入。

But yeah, are very passionate, they are very intense.

讨论都非常激烈。

Talks were very intense.

有几场对话比较轻松，但大多数都特别热烈，根本停不下来，而且时间太长了。

There were a few chill talks, but most of them were like very, Hey, and no one could stop talking and they were way too long.

有时候我们只预约了三十分钟的会议，结果聊了三个小时。

Sometimes we book a meeting for thirty minutes and we talk for three hours.

我甚至和一个人聊了三个多小时。

I even talked with someone for over three hours.

那也非常有趣。

That was also very funny.

所以确实，有太多话题可聊了，因为这些通常是我无法和女友或很多朋友讨论的话题。

So yeah, there's so much to talk about because those are usually topics I can't talk about with my girlfriend or a lot of my friends.

因此，能畅谈这些整天都在思考的话题，真的很棒。

So that's a very nice possibility to talk about these kind of topics you think the whole day.

你觉得，对于我来说，独立黑客这个领域是否还存在？至少在过去几年里，我们看到大量人涌入，想要淘金，这么说吧。

Do you think that there is still like, the indie hacking for me at least feels like for the last few years, we got an influx of people that are looking for digging up the gold, let's say that.

之前几年，重点是产品发布，对吧？

Like, shipping was the years before, right?

所以这是一条轻松赚钱的路。

So that this is an easy way to make money.

你只需要做出点东西，就能赚个五千块。

You just can make, like, 5 k.

你看到那些夸张的帖子，比如‘我从零开始，十天就月入一万五’，Reddit 上全是这种内容。

You see this ridiculous post, like, I made 15 ks a month in ten days starting from zero, the subreddits are overblown with stuff like that.

你觉得，真正的独立黑客社群还有空间存在吗？我有点说不出‘真正的’这个词。

Do you think there is still a space for I'm having trouble saying the word real here, but the real community of indie hackers?

这是个好问题。

Oh, that's a good question.

我也经常看到，很多来自YouTube视频和标题党内容的人，喜欢加入Discord服务器，那些是有着紧密社群的独立黑客Discord服务器。

I also see that often a lot of people who are coming from YouTube videos and clickbaity, I like to hang out in Discord servers, they're like indie hacking Discord servers with very close communities.

但我也会通过私信群组，努力与人建立一对一的联系。

But I'm also in DM groups and I try to have the one to one contacts to people.

我目前正在德国组织一场线下聚会，我认为这在现实世界中才是真正的样子，对吧？

I'm also organizing a meetup in Germany, for example, right now, and I think it's like in the real world, right?

比如，如果你在大学里，虽然人很多，但你仍然可以在大学里、工作中，或任何你想去的地方，建立自己的小圈子。

If you are in the university for example, there are so many people, but you can have your own little network within the university or in your job or wherever you want to.

所以，每个人都应该主动去寻找那些你觉得酷且有趣的人，与他们联系并保持往来。

So yeah, everyone should probably seek out for people they find cool and interesting and contact them and be in contact with them.

是的，我觉得这越来越难了，尤其是现在X平台变得非常奇怪，而BlueSky正逐渐成为第二选择。

Yeah, I think it's getting harder and harder, even with X now going a very weird way, and BlueSky becoming the second.

我觉得过去两三个月，很多独立开发者已经从X平台转移到了BlueSky。

I feel like the last two or three months, a lot of indie hackers have been moving from X to BlueSky.

所以，如果你还没这么做，亲爱的听众，现在至少去了解一下可能是个不错的主意。

So if you haven't, dear listener, it might be an idea to now, check it out at least.

我同意。

I agree.

因为我觉得BlueSky上的讨论更健康，更少点击诱饵，在我看来，而且越来越好。

Because I feel like the discussions on BlueSky are more healthy, less clickbait, in my opinion, and getting better.

我觉得这就像几年前Twitter给我的感觉一样，至少在我看来，Twitter当时的感觉就像现在BlueSky的感觉。

I think that's it feels like the days have felt, like, a few years ago, Twitter felt like BlueSky feels now, at least in my opinion.

是的。

Yeah.

我同意。

I do.

有一件事，哦，对了，我差点忘了，我需要那些Discord服务器的链接。

One thing oh, yeah, before I forget it, I need a link to those Discord servers.

因为我觉得，让自己周围都是做类似事情的人总是很好的。我做过很多自由职业工作，你总是——我不确定你的经历如何，但作为自由职业者，总是作为局外人看待团队，不长期属于团队，这种感觉会拖累你。

Because I think it's always great to surround yourself with people doing something similar, And having done a lot of freelance work where you're always I'm not sure what your experience was, but being always the outside looking in as a freelancer, like not being part of the team long term, something like that weighs you down.

如果你能更多地接触独立黑客社区里的人，我觉得这种感觉就会消失。

And if you have more contact to people from within the indie hacking community, I think that feeling goes away.

我觉得这可能会对很多人有很大帮助。

I think that might help a lot of people.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

没错

True.

我同意

I agree.

它帮助了我

It helped me.

我也在尝试去共享办公空间

And I'm also trying to go into coworking spaces.

这是我今年计划要做的一件事，就是让自己置身于那些也在走非传统人生道路的人当中

That's something I'm planning for this year, just to be surrounded by people who are also going a non conservative path, journey in their life.

我觉得和那些试图走非传统道路的人交谈很有趣，这条路可能很难

I find it interesting to talk with people who are trying to approach a journey which is very non conservative, which can be hard.

你周围的人都在做和你相反的事。

Everyone around you does the opposite from you.

感觉很奇怪。

It feels weird.

你脑子里还有一个小人，一直在问你：你在这儿干什么？

There's also a little man in your head who tells you, What are you doing here?

和那些做同样事情的人在一起，感觉很好。

And it's good to surround you with people who are doing the same.

我觉得这很有帮助。

I think it helps.

是的，我认为德国在这方面尤其困难，因为整个社会对创业者的思维模式是这样的：选择为自己工作、创造新事物，而不是去大公司，比如大众汽车，或者德国其他知名公司，像SAP这样的公司当工程师之类的。

Yeah, I think Germany is especially hard there because of the whole thought process of being like an entrepreneur, like being for yourself, creating something new instead of going to a huge company, let's say Volkswagen or any other known company in Germany, going to SAP for an engineer job, something like this.

对我们来说，这听起来像地狱，但却是90%的人想要的生活，对吧？

It sounds like hell to us, but it's like the thing that 90% want, right?

这只是

It's just

是的，没错。

Yeah, true.

这曾是我大学里一位朋友的梦想，而成为一名自筹资金的创始人更是另一个层次，因为当你考虑创业时，我不清楚其他国家的情况，但在我当时在德国上大学时，如果你有创业的愿望，你会参加创业训练营和我们所说的‘Gründungszentrum’（创业中心），那里有一个专门为有志创业的人设立的中心，他们只教你如何做路演、如何制作商业计划书之类的东西。

This was like a dream of one of my people from my university, and even being a being a Bootstrap founder is another level, because when you look into founding, I don't know about other countries, but when I was in university here in Germany, and you had this wish of founding, you went to this founding bootcamps and what we call Grundart Centrum, there was a center for people who want to found, was only they teach you how to pitch, how to create pitch decks and all this kind of stuff.

但他们从不教你如何真正开始一家公司，比如如何支付那些愿意使用你的产品或服务的人的费用，如何交付服务，如何弄清楚服务应该是什么，以及所有这些相关的事情。

And they didn't teach you how to start a business, like paying people who are happy to use your product or service, and how to deliver a service, how to find out what the service should be, and all this kind of stuff.

所以自筹资金创业也非常非传统，但本不该如此。

So bootstrapping is also very non conservative, but it shouldn't be.

它应该是创办公司的正常方式。

It should be like the normal way of founding a company.

我听过的最疯狂的事情之一，是有人写了一篇博客，说他是一家获得风险投资的软件公司，他们竟然说：‘我们以极低的价格拿到了域名。’

The most insane thing I've ever heard there was a blog post from someone who said that he was a VC funded software company, and they were like, We got our domain incredibly cheap.

我们只花了75,000美元买下它。

We just paid $75,000 for it.

我当时就想：你不会是认真的吧。

And I was like, You can't be fucking serious about this.

你连一个能产生真正收入的产品都没有，却为一个域名支付了德国开发者一整年的工资，这和独立开发与自筹资金的商业模式完全不一样。

You don't even have a product that makes revenue, like serious revenue, and you paid the salary of a developer in Germany for a whole year for your fucking domain names, so that's completely different to the indie hacking and bootstrapping style of doing business.

就是说，域名没买到？

It's just, Oh, the domain is not available?

那就换个别的呗。

Then fucking get another one.

或者就在后面排个队吧。

Or put like a queue at the end of yeah.

我不喜欢那种有风投 backing 时才有的极端非黑即白的心态。

And I don't like this toxic all or nothing mentality you have when you are like have a VC behind you.

因为对我来说，缓慢而健康地成长完全没问题。

Because for for me, I can grow very slow and healthy, and no one has a problem with it.

我能靠它生活，这就够了。

Like, I can live from it, so it's okay.

当然，我也希望增长，增长是做生意的正常部分，但我没必要追求快速扩张，也不必为了增长而做些不必要的事。

Sure, I want to grow, and growing is a normal part of having a business, but I don't have to grow fast, I don't have to do stuff just to grow.

所以，这确实是我很喜欢的一点。

So yeah, that's something I really like.

我认为这一点应该更加显而易见，尤其是在德国，这条路是非常好的创业方式。

I think that should be something which that should be more visible, especially in Germany, that this is a very good route to found a business.

在风投圈里，‘生活方式企业’简直就像一句脏话，对吧？

It's almost like a swear word in the VC world, a lifestyle business, right?

它只是让你维持下去，而当你出售时，股东不可能获得100倍的回报。

It just keeps you going and no shareholder can get 100x exit when you sell it.

我发帖并阅读了那些关于风投支持的初创公司的内容。

Posted and read the supplement startups, which is also very about VC found startups.

他们并不知道这一点，于是我分享了我的故事，有几个人感到非常困惑。

They didn't know that, so I shared my story and there were a few people who were very confused.

什么？

What?

这根本不是企业，这只是一个工作。

This isn't a business, this is a job.

我说，好吧。

I said, Okay.

这是一家初创公司。

This is a startup.

是的，一个月赚一万五千欧元还不错，但一年后你每天得赚一千五百万。

Yeah, making like 15 ks a month, and that's okay after a month, but after a year you have to make like 15,000,000 a day.

否则就不是生意。

Otherwise it's not a business.

我曾经在一个封闭的创业者社区里寻求过一些反馈或建议。

I also like had I once had a discussion with I asked for some feedback or for some tips on a closed like, on a community entrepreneur community thing.

其中一个回答是，在德国，有一种方式可以不用投入两万五千欧元就成立一家有限责任公司。

And one of the answers was that so in Germany, there are there there is, like, a way to found a limited company without putting in $25,000 sorry, euros.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这叫做UG。

Which which is called an UGE.

这只是一个小型有限公司，与完整的有限公司相比有一些限制，而在德国，完整的有限公司叫做GMBH。

It's just a small limited company with some, drawdowns compared to a full limited company, which was a GEMBHA in Germany.

我跟那些人说，我正考虑成立一家小型有限公司。

And I was telling those guys that I was thinking of founding, like, a small limited company.

其中一封回信最先提到的是，如果你在营销上不至少花上五万，那你对生意根本不够认真。

And one of the first things that came back in an email was if you don't spend at least what was it, at least 50 k on marketing, you're not serious about business.

我听到这个笑得不行。

And I had to laugh so hard about this.

这

The

人们持有的这种观点简直疯狂。

kind of perspectives that people have is fucking insane.

但回到你身上，你现在已经完全脱离了朝九晚五的安全保障。

But going back to you, you've now completely separated yourself from the nine to five safety.

从德国的角度来看，你现在是一个非常不稳定的创业者，而且你已经提到，2024年对你来说是极好的一年，因为Featherflow取得了成功等等。

You are now, in German terms, a very unsafe entrepreneur for yourself, and you already wrote that twenty twenty four has been a great year for you with Featherflow taking off and stuff like that.

你今年的目标是什么？

What's your goal for this year?

我今年的目标是确保我能一辈子做这件事，并为它打下基础。

My goal for this year is to make sure I can do this my whole life, and to build the foundation for it.

我是个非常好奇的人，也想多做些实验。

Very I'm curious person, and I want to experiment a lot also.

我想开发一个SaaS产品，看看自己能做成什么样，但主要目标可能是让我的公司更稳定，甚至稍微增长一点，我会尽量让目标现实一点。

I want to build a SaaS product, I want to see what I can do with that, but the main goal is probably to make my agency more steady and maybe even to grow a little bit, I try to be realistic with my goals.

所以到年底，你的估值至少达到五千万了，对吧？

So in the end of the year, you're at least at a 50,000,000 valuation, right?

是的，这其实是所有代理机构的通病。

Yeah, it's the thing with agencies in general.

在我自己成为自由职业者之前，我一直为各种代理机构工作。

I have always worked for agencies before I went freelance myself.

总是有种感觉：如果你下个月拿不到新合同，收入就不是月度经常性收入，而会直接消失。

Always like this feeling of, If you can't get new contracts for the next month, it's not MRR, it's just going to vanish again.

你有认真考虑过这一点吗，还是你并不太担心？

Is that something you very thoughtfully think about, or is it something that you're not that worried about?

不，我会考虑这个问题。

No, I think about it.

这正是我寻求长期合作的原因，对吧？

That's the reason why I am looking to get long term partnerships, right?

成为长期的产品合作伙伴。

To become the long term product partner.

我们不仅仅是开发MVP的人，我们还会帮助他们处理所有事情，因为MVP只是第一阶段，对吧？

We are not only the people who build the MVP, we are the people who help them with everything, because MVP is like the first stage, right?

很多人不明白这一点，他们以为买个手机应用后，团队就可以离开，然后就能赚钱，但这并不是运营软件业务的方式。

A lot of people don't understand that they think they can buy a mobile app and then the team goes away and you can make money from it, but that's not how running the software business works.

每周都有大量的迭代，你需要一个产品团队来运营软件业务。

There's so many iterations every week and you need a product team to run a software business.

尤其是当你非技术背景的时候，更需要这样。

You need especially when you are not nontechnical.

是的，我觉得如果你能成功吸引客户进门，比如你的销售漏斗从MVP阶段就开始运转得非常好，那未来几年都会有生意可做。

Yeah, and I think it's just I think that's a very good if you can get people in the door, like, if your start of your sales funnel with the MVP stuff works very well, you'd have business for the years to come.

对吧？

Right?

你处于这样一种境地：也许某一天你真的需要雇人了，因为项目太多，需要支持，这将是2025年底一个非常理想的状态。

You're in that position where maybe at some point you actually have to hire hire because there are so many projects that you need support, which would be an awesome place to end 2025.

100%同意，是的。

A 100%, yeah.

我觉得经营PAgency是一件非常有趣的事，尤其是当你手上有大量完全不同类型的项目时。

And I think running in the PAgency is a very fun thing to do when you have a lot of very different projects.

因为每四个月，我都得深入钻研一个全新的领域，对吧？

Because every four months I have to dive very deep into a very new domain, right?

比如进入医疗、账单系统，还有许多我以前完全不了解的领域。

Like into healthcare, into billing, into so many different things I had no idea about before.

尤其是作为我在公司里的角色——我是产品经理，我必须理解每一个部分、每个领域以及他们所使用的全部术语。

And especially as my role in my agency, like I'm the product manager, I have to understand every part of it, and the domain and the things they are talking about, all the words.

这正是我非常喜欢的一点。

That's something I really like.

我喜欢深入探索新的主题和领域。

Like, I like diving deep into new topics and domains.

所以这也是我运营MVP代理机构的原因之一。

So that's also a reason to run an MVP agency for me.

这就是整个项目领域切换的问题。

So that's the the whole scope switching thing.

对吧？

Right?

我上一份工作时的同事，也在一家大型代理机构——网页设计和用户体验机构，那里的人在我任职期间一直待在同一个项目里。

I had colleagues at my last job, also a big agency, web design agency, UX agency, where people were in the same project for the entire time that I've been there.

是的。

Mhmm.

这对我来说简直是地狱。

So that that's hell for me.

所以我能很好地体会到，这种切换正是我非常想做的事情。

So I can emphasize very well how the switching is something that I would also love to do.

对吧？

Right?

因为是的。

Because Yeah.

你会接触到新的项目、新的行业。

You see new projects, new industries.

我一直很享受那种在做代理业务时能很好地实现的事情。

I always enjoyed that something that you could do with the agency stuff very well.

去那些公司，亲眼看看他们的生产设施之类的东西。

Going to those companies and actually getting to see their facilities and stuff.

嗯。

Mhmm.

比如，我就亲眼见过FIFA足球锦标赛运动员穿的运动T恤所用的胶水是怎么生产的。

I've seen how glue is made, for example, for the sports T shirts that people have in FIFA soccer tournaments.

我知道那家为所有这些T恤做贴纸的公司，以及他们是如何处理粘合剂之类的。

I know the company that has done, like, the whole sticker thing for all of those shirts and how they're doing their clue and stuff.

我觉得这才是最棒的部分。

And I think that's, like, the best part.

这可能正是我们为MVP SaaS公司做不了的事情，因为没有实体工厂。

That's maybe something we we can't do for MVP SaaS agency because there's no, like, facility.

但以前看到不同的人如何做不同的工作，这种感觉总是很酷。

But that's what that was always cool, like, seeing how different people do different work and stuff like that.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

也许我在2025年也得做点类似的事情。

Maybe I also have to do something like this in 2025.

我们看看我的SaaS产品会不会比我预期的更好。

We'll see if my SaaS product goes better than I think.

对于你正在打造的SaaS产品，你已经有计划了吗？

For the SaaS product that you're trying to build, do you already have a plan there?

你能说说你打算打造什么吗？

Can you say something that you want to build there?

这其实和你说的领域很相似。

It's actually a familiar domain like yours says.

不是播客，但也属于内容领域，是AI相关的，但我现在不能多说。

Not podcast, but it's also about the content, it's a content space, and it's AI, but I can't tell more.

但我认为在未来一两个月内，我会公开谈论它，不过现在我还在开发阶段，目前只是个副业。

But I think in the next one or two months I will talk about it in public, But right now I am still in the building process, and it's just a side thing right now.

走着瞧吧。

Let's see.

我其实不想打击你，但我对我们正在尝试的一些东西也非常兴奋，我和我的女朋友——她也是我的商业伙伴——有一整套想法。

I actually I don't want to discourage you in any way, but I'm also very excited about some stuff that we are trying to do, and we have a whole list of ideas, me and my girlfriend, who's also my business partner.

我非常期待能做出一个与AI完全无关的产品。

And I'm very excited about the possibility of doing a product that has nothing to do with AI.

是的

Yeah.

所以，

So,

你就做你自己吧，对吧？

like, you do you, right?

你也可以做你的AI SaaS产品。

You can do your AI SaaS as well.

我也有一个，所以我真的没法反对。

I also have one, so I can't really disagree.

但那些东西变化太快了，我想做一个不涉及它们的副项目。

But some things about those are just they're changing so much, I want to do a side project without them.

我理解，因为所有来找我公司寻求产品的人，我觉得几乎每个产品都是基于AI的。

I understand that, because all the people who are coming to my agency and looking for products, I think almost every product is AI based.

哇哦。

Oh wow.

80%，是的。

80%, yeah.

好吧，我本来猜不到会这么高，是的。

Okay, I wouldn't have guessed that, yeah.

这比例很高，当有人来找我做不包含AI的项目时，我会非常兴奋，因为那是非常传统的软件开发，而不是去提示和尝试不同的提示词。

It's a lot, and when they are someone who is looking for a project which doesn't have any AI, I get very excited about it, because it's very old school software development and not like prompting and experimenting with different prompts.

还要做

Also doing

做一些类似的事情，我不确定你有没有做过，但我们确实内置了安全机制：如果你希望AI返回JSON格式的响应，但失败了，你就得循环重试之类的。

doing stuff like, I'm not sure if you have done that, but we also built in safety networks where if a common if you want to have a JSON as a return response from an AI and it doesn't work, you have to loop back and try again and stuff like that.

我们已经在Repodcasted中实现了这一点，这样提示就不会再失败了。

We've built this into Repodcasted so the prompts don't fail anymore.

我们还考虑过把整个机制做成一个独立的API服务产品。

And we also thought about building like a whole product out of that just as an API service.

所以，是的，有很多事情值得思考，但有时候你就是想做个简单的增删改查应用。

So, yeah, there's a lot of stuff to think about and sometimes you just wanna build a crud app.

是的，我的

Yeah, My

感受。

feeling.

无论如何，我真想再聊一个小时，但我们时间快到了。

Anyway, I would love to continue talking for another hour, but we're running out of time.

是的。

Yeah.

我们每次访谈结束时都会问每位嘉宾一个问题，就是这个大问题。

There is one thing we always want to ask every guest in the end of the interview, which is the big question.

如果现在有一个新的独立开发者来找你，说：嘿，雅努，你能给我最好的建议是什么吗？

If a new indie hacker comes to you now and says, hey, Janu, what's, like, the best tip that you can give me?

我才刚开始。

I'm just starting out.

我从来没做过这个。

I've never done this.

你对这些人最核心的建议是什么？

What would be your, like, one advice to do to give to those guys?

就先开始吧。

Just start.

我觉得我看到很多独立开发者。

I think that I see a lot of indie hackers.

他们大量消费内容，也写很多东西。

They consume a lot and they write a lot.

他们在Twitter上写东西，读很多内容，从YouTube和其他地方吸收大量创业资讯，但他们从不实际构建产品并发布出去。

They're writing stuff on Twitter, they're reading a lot of stuff, they're consuming all this startup content from YouTube and everywhere, but they don't build stuff and put them out there.

尤其是在刚开始，当这还只是个爱好时，你应该享受它。

And especially in the beginning when it's just a hobby, you should enjoy it.

最重要的是，当你不享受它时，就没有理由去做它。

Like the most important thing, when you don't enjoy it, there's no reason to do it.

就去享受它，把东西发布出去，你会在过程中学到一切。

And just enjoy it and put stuff out there and you will learn everything on the journey.

是的。

Yeah.

我总是给出同样的建议，这是我朋友给我的建议，我也在进行创意写作。

I always also give the same advice that a friend has given me to I write I'm writing creatively as well, like creative.

我正在写一本书，但它可能永远不会出版，至少在可预见的未来不会。

I'm I'm writing a book, but it's never going to come out, at least not in the in the foreseeable future.

有一个建议总是说：你必须先做出第一个版本。

And one advice was always, you have to make the first version.

它可能会很糟糕，但你只能对已经存在的东西进行迭代。

It's going to be shit, and you only can iterate on something that exists.

所以，开始做点什么吧。

So start doing stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

就像你生活中做的每件事一样，先把第一个版本发布出去。

Like with everything you do in your life, just put the first version out there.

我做的每一件事，比如我最早的推文，简直一塌糊涂。

Like, everything I did like, my first tweets were, like, garbage.

我不想看到它们。

There was I don't want to see them.

我开始的每件事都不怎么样，但有时会变得还行，希望有一天能变得很好。

Everything I start is like not good, and it gets okay sometimes and hopefully good in one day.

是的。

Yeah.

我打造的每一个产品都是这样。

It was the same for all of the products that I've built.

第一个产品很棒。

The first product was awesome.

花了太长时间。

It took way too long.

我想得太多了。

I thought way too much about it.

我还在这么做，但我在变得更好。

I'm still doing that, but I'm getting better.

但没错，这只是一个迭代过程。

But, yeah, it's just an iteration.

它会变得更好，而第一个版本很可能很烂。

It's going to get better, and the first one is probably going to be shit.

不是100%这样，但第一个产品的成功率可能相当低。

Not, like, 100%, but the, like, the hit rate on the first product is probably pretty low.

但你必须去做，必须发布它，也许对某些人来说它很棒，然后你还可以继续迭代，让它变得更好。

But you have to do it and you just have to release it, and maybe it's awesome for some people, and then you can still iterate and get it better.

尤其是对我们这样的极客来说。

Especially for nerds like us.

极客都是完美主义者，对吧？

Nerds are like perfectionists, right?

他们希望每件事都做到完美，这对创业者或创作者来说是有害的。

They want to do everything should be perfect, and it's toxic for a founder or a maker.

是的，然后你开始做另外十个功能。

Yeah, and then you start doing another 10 features.

我不能发布这个。

I can't release this.

每月5美元，这个价值还不够。

That's not enough value for $5 a month.

好的，完美，Janu。

Okay, perfect, Janu.

谢谢你在最后给的建议。

Thank you for that tip at the end.

人们可以在网上哪里找到你所有的产品和你本人？

Where can people find all your products and you yourself on the Internet?

在Twitter上，我的名字是Janu Bills。

On Twitter, my name is Janu Bills.

在BlueSky上，是Janu。

On BlueSky, it's Janu.

哈哈

Lol.

这是我买的域名。

It's the domain I bought.

很棒的域名，是的。

Awesome domain, yeah.

我的公司是Featherflow，网址是featherflow.com。

And my agency is Featherflow, featherflow.com.

是的，如果你有兴趣和我聊聊，可以给我发私信。

Yeah, you are interested in chatting with me, can DM me.

我几乎都会回复。

I answer almost everyone.

我唯一不回复的是那些特别奇怪的私信，但如果你有问题，我总会抽时间回答。

The only thing I'm not answering are very weird to call DMs, but if you have questions, I always take time to answer them.

是的。

Yeah.

随时欢迎联系我。

Feel free to contact me.

太棒了。

Awesome.

和往常一样，这些链接也会在描述中提供，你可以轻松点击访问。

And as always, you'll find all of these links as well in the description too, so you can easily click them there.

感谢你抽出时间参加这个播客，雅努。

Thank you, Janu, for taking the time to being on the podcast.

谢谢你邀请我，托比亚斯。

Thank you for having me, Tobias.

希望你有个愉快的夜晚，我们回头见。

And I hope you have a nice evening, and I'll see you later.

再见。

Bye bye.

拜拜。

Bye.

这就是我们这一期的内容。

And that's our episode.

感谢您一直听到最后。

Thank you for sticking with us to the end.

您可以在Twitter上关注我，用户名是Icebearlabs。

You can me on Twitter with the username Icebearlabs.

拼写是 I c e b e a r l a b s。

That's I c e b e a r l a v s.

我们有一个网站，您可以去看看。

We have a website you can check out.

请访问 codeandconquer.fm 了解更多信息。

Go to codeandconquer.fm to find out more.

您可以在Twitter、TikTok和Instagram上通过账号 code conquer pod 找到我们，也可以发送邮件至 hello@codeandconquer.fm 联系我们。

You can find this podcast on Twitter, TikTok, and Instagram with the handle code conquer pod, and can write us an email at hello@codeandconquer.fm.

如果您是在Apple Podcast或Spotify上收听本播客的听众，请考虑为我们评分。

If you're one of the people who listen to this podcast on either the Apple Podcast platform or Spotify, please consider rating us.

这能让其他人发现这个播客，帮助我们把它做得更大。

It lets other people discover this podcast and helps us grow this even bigger.

非常感谢您的收听。

Thank you so much for listening.

我们下次再见。

Till next time.