大卫·马库斯：比特币如何成为货币互联网（并超越黄金）

我认为目前美元仍将保持主导地位。比特币是一个绝佳的泄压阀，可以说是史上最伟大的泄压阀。正如你所说，相比黄金它确实被严重低估。人们和机构对黄金的追捧有其道理——看看我们不负责任地持续印钞的财政政策就知道了。这让我长期对比特币的价值非常看好。

I think for now the dollar is here to stay. I think Bitcoin is a great escape valve, is the greatest escape valve ever. And to your point, think it's massively undervalued compared to gold. Like there's a reason there's an appreciation of gold by people and institutions looking at the way that our fiscal approach to how we continue printing and are not responsible. You know, that makes me very bullish on the value of Bitcoin over the long run.

大家好！欢迎回到节目。本周我们现场邀请到了Light Spark首席执行官David Marcus。David，见到你真是太高兴了，我一直想找机会再和你聊聊。

Hey everyone. Welcome back to the show. Joining me this week in person is David Marcus, CEO of Light Spark. And David, it's so great to see you. I've been wanting to talk to you again for a while.

首先，你最近怎么样？

First of all, how are you?

很好，非常好。很高兴能再次参加节目。

Great. Great. Nice to be back on the show.

谢谢。上次你详细分享了创建Lightspark的历程——你来自Meta背景，曾试图建立Libra支付网络，还担任过PayPal总裁。能否为错过上期节目的观众简单介绍一下你的背景，以及是什么促使你创建Lightspark？

Yeah, thank you. I mean the first time around you shared your whole backstory about how you built Lightspark. You came from a meta background where you were trying to build Libra, their payments network. And then you were also president of PayPal. So for those that maybe missed that episode, can you just give us a quick summary of sort of your background and what caused you to build Lightspark?

当然。我一直深耕支付领域。上一家创业公司Zong卖给了PayPal，后来阴差阳错开始执掌PayPal，离职后加入Meta负责通讯业务——那算是我离开支付领域四年的转型期。但看到资金流动方式毫无改变让我非常沮丧，于是通过Libra项目回归支付领域，虽然结果众所周知，但从中收获良多。这促使我决定在比特币基础上构建开放支付网络——因为比特币是唯一能真正承受变革压力、从根本上改变全球资金流动方式的中立去中心化货币。

Sure. Well, mean, I was always in payments. And the last startup I did was called Zong and I sold it to PayPal, then through a series of twists and turns ended up running PayPal, then left PayPal to join Meta to run messaging and so that was my four year of sabbatical from payments doing something else. Then I got really frustrated with the fact that the way that money moved didn't change at all. And so I tried to go back at it with Libra which you know was met with the fate that we now know about and lots of learnings and that pushed me to decide to build an open payment network on top of Bitcoin because that's truly the only form of neutral money and decentralized money that will withstand the pressure of changing the way that money moves in a in a really profound way for the world.

让我们深入探讨比特币支付功能的重要性。最近大家似乎更关注比特币的价值存储功能——这确实很重要，它解决了货币问题。但你选择聚焦比特币作为交易媒介。

Well, let's break down why the payments aspect of Bitcoin is so important. Because I feel like especially lately, the focus has been on the store of value part of Bitcoin. That's so important. That fixes the money. But you've chosen to focus on Bitcoin as a medium of exchange.

是的。

Yes.

我们认为比特币是唯一中立的数字货币形式，其去中心化程度足以成为货币的开放互联网。我们相信价值存储阶段至关重要，这样才能在比特币基础上构建实用阶段。原因在于，如果价值不足，所有机构都不会持有它，也不会像今天这样被广泛接受。因此这是一个必要的准备阶段，需要时间积累。但现在，从贝莱德、富达等大型机构到国家层面都在支持比特币，ETF获批，主权国家开始配置比特币头寸，比特币已获得足够合法性，我们才能真正开始在其基础上构建支付功能。

Well, we believe that Bitcoin is the only neutral digital form of money that's decentralized enough to actually be an open internet for money. And we believe that the store of value phase is absolutely essential for us to be able to actually build a utility phase of Bitcoin on top of it. And the reason for that is if it's not valuable enough, then all of the institutions are not holding it, it's not accepted by everyone the way that it is today. And so it was a prerequisite step that took the time it took. But now that every institution, like the large institutions, whether it's BlackRock, Fidelity or others are actually supporting Bitcoin, we have ETFs, we have nation states that are building positions in Bitcoin, it's legitimized enough that we can actually really start building payment utility on top of it.

这正是我们Lightspark过去三年全力以赴的工作方向。

And that's what we've been hard at work at Lightspar for the last three years.

对于那些认为比特币威胁美元地位，因此当权者不会允许其成为支付网络的人，您想说什么？

What do you say to people who believe that Bitcoin threatens the dollar and therefore they, in power, will not allow it to be a payments network?

要知道，比特币并不威胁美元或其他稳定的优质法币。劣质货币另当别论。当人们拥有美元这样稳定的货币时，由于比特币价格波动，他们不愿将其用于日常消费——人们更希望享受比特币升值收益而非花掉它，没人想成为'比特币买披萨'的笑柄。这种特性使其本质上不适合作为交易媒介。

Well, think, you know, Bitcoin doesn't threaten the dollar or any stable, good fiat currency. Bad currency is a different story. But if you have a good stable currency like the dollar, people don't want to use Bitcoin for everyday purchases because it's volatile and people want to actually benefit from appreciation of Bitcoin and they don't want to spend it. They don't want to be the Bitcoin pizza guy. And so just that in nature is not a good medium of exchange.

我们的解决方案是将比特币作为底层协议——就像货币版的TCP/IP数据包。比如从美国银行账户发送美元，墨西哥收款人可在其本地银行账户收到比索（或全球任何地区的本地货币），中间通过比特币完成清算：美元→比特币→墨西哥比索，这个过程对使用者完全透明。这正是我们在Lightning和Spark网络上实现的应用，同时支持在比特币上发行稳定币（这个可以稍后详谈），以此推动全球支付。

So the way we use Bitcoin is in the background like TCPIP packets for money and so basically you can send dollars from a US bank account to someone in Mexico receiving Mexican peso in their Mexican bank account or someone anywhere in the world for that matter in their local currency and basically the settlement asset is Bitcoin in between, so you go dollar, Bitcoin, Mexican peso and it's invisible to people using it. And and that's the way we use Bitcoin on top of Lightning and Spark now and also enable stablecoin issuance on top of Bitcoin, and we can talk about that later, to facilitate global payments.

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立即在gemini.com/natalie申请。如果你想紧跟比特币动态而不被各种噪音干扰，不妨看看Bitwise资产管理公司每周发布的CIO备忘录。CIO Matt Hogan每周都会整理一份五分钟速览，解读当周数字资产领域的重要动态。Bitwise自2017年成立以来，管理着超过100亿美元资产，采用30多种投资策略。这份CIO备忘录风格鲜明、观点犀利，而且完全免费。

Apply now at gemini.com/natalie. If you wanna stay on top of Bitcoin without getting lost in all the noise, check out the weekly CIO memo from Bitwise Asset Management. CIO Matt Hogan puts together a quick five minute memo that breaks the biggest stories in digital assets each week. Bitwise has been around since 2017 and manages more than $10,000,000,000 across 30 plus strategies. The weekly CIO memo is bold, sharp, and totally free.

只需访问bitwiseinvestments.com/ci0memo。当然，请务必谨慎考虑加密货币的极端风险。Coin Stories节目也由Ledin赞助。需要现金但不想出售比特币？Ledin是比特币抵押贷款领域的全球领导者，自2018年以来已发放超过90亿美元贷款，也是首家提供储备证明的机构。

Just go to bitwiseinvestments.com/ci0memo. And always, of course, carefully consider the extreme risks associated with crypto. Coin Stories is also brought to you by Ledin. Need cash but don't wanna sell your Bitcoin? Ledin is the global leader in Bitcoin backed loans, issuing over $9,000,000,000 in loans since 2018, and they were the first to offer proof of reserves.

通过Ledin，您可以获得托管贷款、无需月供等多项服务。访问ledin.i0/natalie即可享受首笔贷款0.25%的利率优惠。最后别忘了预订我的新书《比特币101：全民比特币》，这本书揭示了传统货币体系的缺陷，并阐述比特币如何助你实现持久财富与自由，是比特币新手的完美礼物。

With Ledin, you get custody loans, no monthly payments, and more. Visit ledin.i0/natalie and get a quarter percentage point off your first loan. And finally, make sure to get copy of my upcoming Bitcoin one zero one book, Bitcoin is for everyone. The book explains why money is broken and how Bitcoin can help you build lasting wealth and freedom. It makes the perfect gift for those new to Bitcoin.

请查看节目说明中的链接，新书将于11月18日上市。好的，我已经迫不及待想和大家讨论Spark了。但首先，让我们为刚接触比特币的听众做些背景铺垫。

Just visit the link in my show notes. The book comes out November 18. Okay. Can't wait to talk to you about Spark. But first, let's just set the scene here for those listening who maybe are a little bit newer to Bitcoin.

什么是闪电网络？如何向刚接触这项技术的人简单解释它？

What is the Lightning Network? How do you explain it simply to someone who's just getting to understand this technology?

闪电网络是建立在比特币之上的第二层协议，采用支付通道系统。简单来说，你通过与交易对手方开通支付通道，就能实现实时低成本的相互转账。

So the Lightning Network is a layer two on top of Bitcoin that uses a channel payment system. So basically, you open payment channels with counterparties to be able to pay one another at a low cost in real time.

就像在酒吧开个消费账户对吧？

Of like opening up a tab at a bar, right?

是的，有一点。而且情况会变得更复杂，因为你需要与多人开通通道或标签，这实际上是一个临时通道，也就是一条路径。所以你需要通过多人和多跳才能到达目的地。闪电网络最棒的地方在于，相比比特币L1，它几乎不需要新的信任假设，使得比特币转移更快更便宜。但闪电网络的缺点是它不太适合自我托管，因为你需要在通道前端预留流动性才能接收付款，这对用户来说很不直观，而且如果你要建立数十亿个终端节点，需要在每个钱包前端配置流动性，或者使用闪电服务提供商（有些人认为这属于资金转移）来促成支付，这从经济角度来说很不划算。

Yeah, a little bit. And it gets a little more complicated because you open channels or tabs with multiple people and then it's a transient channel, so you actually a path. So you go through multiple people and hops to actually get to your destination. So the great thing about Lightning is there's zero new trust assumptions or almost zero new trust assumptions compared to Bitcoin L1 and it makes it faster and cheaper to move Bitcoin. The downside of the Lightning Network is that it really doesn't work well for self custody because you need to park liquidity in front of that channel to receive a payment, which is kind of really not intuitive for people and really not economical if you want to actually build billions of endpoints and you need to position liquidity in front of every wallet or use a Lightning service provider that is, some would argue money transmission to actually facilitate payments to Lightning.

正因如此我们开发了Spark，它通过向后兼容闪电网络来扩展其功能，但本身不是基于通道的支付系统。这样你就能以极低成本在比特币网络上实时创建数十亿个钱包并接收比特币和稳定币。它需要的新信任假设极少——虽然不如闪电网络那样完全无需信任，但我们认为它足够去中心化，并且具有向一层网络单边退出的能力。也就是说你可以在Spark上交易，随时拉下紧急开关退出网络，没人能阻止你在一层取回资金，我们认为这实现了实用性与去信任化的最佳平衡。

And so that's why we built Spark that enables us to actually extend the capabilities of Lightning by making Spark backward compatible with Lightning but is not a channel based payment system. So you can actually spin up billions of wallets and receive Bitcoin and Stablecoins in real time at a very low cost on top of Bitcoin. And it has minimal new trust assumptions, so it's not as trustless as Lightning, but we believe it's trustless enough and has unilateral exits to layer one, so meaning you can transact on Spark and if you want to exit the network at any given point in time, you can pull a ripcord and no one can prevent you from recovering your funds on L1, which we believe is the right balance of utility and trustlessness.

好的，所以你们刚推出Spark。重申下：一层是比特币区块链，二层有闪电网络。而这个新二层方案只是向后兼容闪电网络对吧？它能实现更快、更便宜、更具扩展性的支付。

Okay, so you just launched Spark. And again, we have this layer one, which is the Bitcoin blockchain. Layer two, we have Lightning. This is a separate layer two that's just backwards compatible with Lightning, right? And you're going to be allowing for faster, cheaper payments, more scalability.

对吧？我们先聚焦稳定币部分，因为现在关于稳定币和《天才法案》的讨论很多。

Right? Let's first focus on the stablecoin aspect because we are hearing a lot about stablecoins, the Genius Act.

这都是炒作。

It's all the hype.

但目前大多数稳定币都在其他区块链上。所以有些比特币极端主义者会说：我们不喜欢稳定币，不喜欢其他链上的东西。你在非比特币网络（可能不够去中心化，或者采用不同于工作量证明的共识机制）的缺陷方面很有经验，能否具体谈谈稳定币将如何在比特币网络上运作？

But right now, most stablecoins are on other blockchains. Which is why some of the Bitcoin Maxis are like, we don't like stablecoins. We don't like things built on other blockchains. You have a lot of experience with why things might not work with a non, maybe as decentralized layer, maybe one that has a little bit a different consensus mechanism, right, than proof of work. So can you speak to that specifically and how stablecoins will be operating on top of Bitcoin?

当然。首先我对比特币上稳定币的态度很矛盾——因为稳定币本质是中心化的，必须由公司管理储备金。当它铸造新稳定币时，必须存入对应美元储备，这个过程需要中心化企业来管理。我不喜欢这种存在单一监管目标的模式，政府或银行业可以随时要求CEO停止业务。但我们永远没法叫中本聪做任何事——虽然我倒希望可以。

Yeah, sure. So first of all, I had like a schizophrenic journey with stablecoins on top of Bitcoin because stablecoins by nature are a centralized thing. Like there has to be a company that manages the reserves and basically, you know, when it mints new unit of a stablecoin has to put a dollar in the reserve and it's a process that requires a centralized corporation to manage the thing, which I don't like because I don't like a single throat to choke where governments and regulators that don't like it or like established players like the banking industry in some parts of the world can actually call a CEO and tell them to stop doing a thing and they have to stop. There's no way you can call Satoshi Nakamoto and ask him, her, them to actually do something. Wish we could.

这就是美妙之处。我是说，希望我们能这样。实际上那样更好。稳定币已经成为数字资产不可避免的现实，木已成舟，我们的思路一直是：如何在像Ethel 2这样去中心化程度不足的底层上，让稳定币的运作更加无需信任。我们的解决方案是将其构建在比特币之上——不需要额外代币支付交易燃料费，同时保留向一层网络单边退出的功能，这样就能赋予结算网络本身更强的无需信任属性。

That's the beauty. I mean, wish we could. Like it's actually better that way. And so stablecoins, now that they've become an inevitable reality of how you make money digital and the horse has left the barn on this one, then my thinking and our thinking here has been how do we make it actually a little more trustless than moving a stablecoin on top of something that's also insufficiently decentralized like an Ethel 2 or something like that. And the way we've approached it is we figured that if we built it on top of Bitcoin without the use of a separate token needed to pay for gas for transactions and you still benefited from unilateral exits to layer one, then it would confer to the network, the settlement rails themselves, a more trustless nature.

因此这是一个更开放、更去中心化、更无需信任的结算层，稳定币可以实时超低成本流动，无需第三方代币支付手续费。费用直接用你传输的稳定币支付，这其实与传统金融支付系统非常相似。

And so more open, more decentralized, more trustless settlement layer on top of which stablecoins can actually move in real time at a super low cost without the need of having a third party token to pay for fees. You pay the fees in the stablecoin you're transmitting, which is like basically very similar to all the TradFi payment systems.

那么稳定币未来可能会主要由银行发行对吧？现在已经有Tether这样的私营公司在发行。它们是否必须从现有区块链迁移到Spark这样的平台？当其他网络已经形成强大的网络效应时，您认为这种迁移会如何发生？

So stablecoins are gonna be issued increasingly probably by banks, right? They are already issued by private companies like Tether. Would they essentially have to transfer what they're currently built on, which is these other blockchains, to something like Spark? And how do you see that happening when there's so much network effect that has essentially already happened with the others?

这是个好问题。目前我们看到很多发行方同时在多个网络发行。比如USDT就在波场、Solana和EVM链上运行。USDT 0通过Layer Zero实现跨链流动性无缝转移。可以预见Spark上也会出现类似情况。

Yeah, it's a great question. And what we're seeing right now is that a lot of issuers are issuing on a number of different networks. So you look at USDT, they're live on Tron, they're live on Solana, they're live on EVM chains. You have USDT 0 with layer zero being used to actually move liquidity around those chains in a seamless way. So you can expect similar things to happen on Spark.

我们已有Braille发行的首个稳定币USDB在Spark上运行，FlashNet和Magic Eden也在部署。更多发行方正在接入。凭借成本优势（实时转账费低于1美分/次，耗时不到1秒），以及可直接退出至比特币主网的特性（当不信任网络参与者时可随时提取余额），Spark将成为比特币生态中最具吸引力的稳定币发行平台。我们还将推出更多功能。

We have our first stablecoin issued by Braille, FlashNet, Magic Eden on top of Spark, which is called USDB that is live right now and moving on the network. And we have a bunch more that are working on issuing. And so you can expect Spark to be one of the other networks where stablecoins will appear and because we have a competitive advantage in terms of cost, like it'll cost less than a cent at scale to move a stablecoin in real time, less than a second, less than a cent and you'll have unilateral exits to Bitcoin L1 where like if you don't trust the network participants, you can always get your balance out which is I think something that will confer a lot more trust on top of it being cheaper and faster. So we think it's going to be a really compelling option for all of the stablecoin issuers that want to issue on top of Bitcoin. And then we have a few more capabilities that we're going to bring live.

其一是'稳定兑换'功能——将稳定币与跨行交易费机制结合。这种手续费机制是所有支付网络成功的关键（如Visa/万事达），它既允许发行方对自家稳定币转账收费，又能向商户分配推广激励或向用户发放奖励。Spark将内置这套系统，让发行方除储备金收益外，还能通过生态建设获得更多收入。

One is something we call stable change, which is like the how you marry stablecoins with interchange. And interchange is a key success component of every payment network. Like if you look at Visa and MasterCard, etcetera, which are arguably very successful payment networks, they all have interchange that allows issuers to actually charge a fee for people transmitting their own stablecoin at the issuer level, but also disperse value to merchants for adoption or to consumers for rewards. And so that's going to be built in also in Spark, giving issuers more revenue opportunities than just the yield on the reserve, but also more opportunities to really kickstart an ecosystem around their own stablecoin.

如果有听众质疑：比特币的优势不就是去中介化吗？现在这套系统听起来像在再造Visa——商户有时要支付高额手续费，这岂不是开倒车？您如何回应这种观点？

But what if someone's listening to this and going, wait a second, I thought the benefit of Bitcoin is we're not going to have these intermediaries and all these fees and gatekeepers that are taking a slice from everyone. How do you respond to that? Because it sounds like we're kind of reinventing the current system with Visa, where sometimes merchants are paying a huge amount of fees. And that really cuts in sometimes.

是的。我的意思是，这只是稳定币的一个功能。我们认为既然稳定币会持续存在（事实也确实如此），那么我们就需要为稳定币发行方提供工具，使其拥有能经受时间考验的商业模式。我认为目前我们处于高利率环境。当利率下降时，你会发现很多发行方实际上赚不到多少钱。

Yeah. Mean, that's just a capability for stablecoins. So we think that if stablecoins are here to stay, which they are, then we need to give tools for stablecoin issuers to actually have a business model that actually resists the test of times. I think right now we're in a high interest rate environment. When the interest rates come down, you're going to see a lot of issuers not actually really making a lot of money.

那么问题就变成了：你究竟该如何实现？未来某个时间点，我们会想出如何向消费者返还收益。如果你要向消费者支付收益，而利率又较低，同时你试图激励稳定币的支付用例（比如主流支付场景），这些就是你需要的功能。当然，如果是转移比特币就另当别论了——在Spark网络上比特币永远便宜且实时到账，而且价格可能波动，对吧？

And so then it's like, how do you actually do this? And then at some point, we'll figure out how to pay yield back to consumers. And so if you're paying yield to consumers, interest rates are lower and you're trying to incentivize payments use cases for stablecoins like mainstream payments use cases for stablecoins, these are capabilities that you need. Of course, if you're moving Bitcoin, that's a different story. Bitcoin will always be cheap and real time on top of Spark and that price can change, right?

手续费只需1美分，你可以随时将聪（SATs）实时转移到自托管钱包。这是我们所有业务的基础结算层。比如你向对方发送美元，而对方接收的是墨西哥比索或欧元，那么手续费将包含从美国FedNow系统提款、向欧洲SEPA Instant系统汇款以及外汇兑换的费用——实际上中间使用比特币会很有竞争力。这些就是除0.01美元基础费外你需要支付的费用。仅此而已。

It's 1¢ and you can move SATs in real time to a self custody wallet at any given point in time. And that's the base settlement layer for everything else we do. So if you're sending dollar to someone receiving again Mexican peso or euros on the other side, then the fees are going to be the fees to actually pull from FedNow in The US and push to SEPA Instant in Europe and the FX, which actually using Bitcoin in between can be very competitive. And those are going to be the fees that you're going to pay on top of the $01 But that's it.

没错。完全不像法币那种疯狂的高额汇款手续费。那么距离那些'大而不能倒'的银行（比如摩根大通、富国银行）发行自己的稳定币还有多远？

Right. Nothing like the crazy remittance fees that we're seeing in fiat. So how far away are we from the big, too big to fail banks issuing their own stablecoins like the JPMorgan, Wells Fargo?

其实有些银行已经在做了。比如摩根大通就有用于机构对手方资金流转的美元稳定币。我认为会有很多存款机构——也就是很多银行——发行自己的稳定币。然后问题就来了：你到底想解决什么问题？我觉得这才是目前没人讨论的、关于稳定币的更大问题。

Well, I think some of them are already doing it. Like JPMorgan has a US stablecoin that they use for their institutional counterparties to move value around. I think, you know, you're going to see a lot of depositors like a lot of banks issuing their stablecoins. Then the problem is going to be okay, like what problem are you trying to solve? I think that's the bigger problem right now that no one talks about, about stablecoins.

现在的情况是，每个人都为拥有稳定币而兴奋，为发行自己的稳定币而兴奋。但他们没有真正聚焦于'我要为谁解决什么问题'，对吧？我觉得USDT就非常专注这点——他们建立了品牌，在帮助无法拥有真实美元账户的人群方面执行得很到位，这方面他们做得非常出色。

It's like everyone's excited about having a stablecoin, everyone's excited about issuing their own stablecoins. They're not really focused on what problem am I actually going to solve for whom, right? And I think USDT is very focused on that. Like they have a brand, they have a solid execution in terms of helping people have a dollar bank account when they can't have the real thing. And they're very good at that.

在美国，稳定币更多是机构用例，因为美国人本来就有美元账户。所以它更像是机构非工作时间结算工具，而不像面向消费者的玩法——除非你想从美国给那些更愿意持有美元而非本地货币的人发送稳定币。

I think in The US, it's more of an institutional use case because everyone already has a US dollar balance in The US. And so it's more of an institutional off hour settlement thing than like a consumer play in The US unless you want to send stablecoins from The US to someone else that prefers to have a dollar balance than their local currency balance.

你提出了一个很好的观点，因为当我旅行时，我遇到很多使用泰达币的人。泰达币一直是他们的生命线。稳定币整体上都是生命线，因为它们提供了获取美元的渠道。他们有时会存美元，有时会存比特币。但在美国本土，我从未见过使用稳定币的美国人。

Well, you bring up a great point because when I travel, I meet people who use Tether. And Tether's been a lifeline. Stablecoins in general have been a lifeline because it gives them access to the dollar. And they sometimes save in dollars, sometimes they'll save in Bitcoin. But here, I never meet Americans who are using stablecoins.

那么随着稳定币的普及和发展，以及美国大型银行甚至企业可能开始发行稳定币，你认为这种情况会改变吗？还是说稳定币将始终处于边缘地位，更多用于国际场景？

So do you see that changing as stablecoins grow and proliferate and we have these major American banks or possibly corporations issuing them? Or do you think there'll always be more on the margin and more of an international use case?

我认为这取决于具体情况。我总是会回到'你为谁解决什么问题'这个根本。在美国，可能主要是为了获取更高收益——尽管现在大银行正在打压这一点。比如在Coinbase上，USDC能提供10%的收益率（有一定限额）。但银行是否会因此被迫提高存款利率来竞争呢？

I think it depends. It's like, you know, I always go back to what is the problem you're fixing for whom. And in The US, like maybe it's paying higher yield, although that's under attack by the big banks right now. So on Coinbase, you can have USDC paying you 10% yield up to a certain amount. But is it going to be more competition from the banks that will have to pay more interest on deposits anyways?

稳定币到底从根本上为美国消费者解决了什么问题？我现在还不确定。当然对DeFi来说，它本质上就是货币市场基金。用于交易很好，但在美国国内支付场景中，支付本来就是免费的。

What is the thing that stablecoin actually solves fundamentally for American consumers? I'm not sure right now. And of course for DeFi, it's basically the money market fund for DeFi. Great, fine if you're trading. But if you're in domestic payments in The US, payments are free.

比如我现在可以通过Venmo、Zelle等任何方式给你转账，都是免费的。所以在国内支付场景中其实没什么需要改进的。现在很多公司试图消除Visa收取的交换费——其实主要不是Visa，而是发卡行和收单银行在收取大部分费用。但除非某个稳定币能在商户和消费者间形成巨大的网络效应（这很难启动），否则我不认为稳定币是解决方案。

Like I can send you Venmo, Zelle, whatever you want right now, it's free. So there's not much to be fixed on payments, domestic payments use cases. I think there's all kinds of companies trying to basically just remove the interchange charged by the Visas. And it's generally not Visa, it's like the issuers and issuing and acquiring banks that are charging most of the fees that are trying to change that. But I'm not sure stablecoins are the way to do that unless you have massive network effects with a specific stablecoin with merchants and consumers, which is hard to start.

我们拭目以待吧。

So we'll see.

这很有趣，因为我注意到越来越多讨论——尤其是一些宏观分析师认为，通过稳定币增加对美国国债的需求，可能是解决债务问题的计划之一。就像我节目中多次提到的那位俄罗斯部长所说（我的听众都知道），美国计划利用加密生态通过稳定币重置债务，并以比特币作为幕后价值储存手段。你能谈谈这个观点吗？你认同吗？

This is fascinating because I'm seeing so many more conversations, especially with some of the macro analysts out there saying that there's almost like a plan in motion to help us address our debt by creating more demand for our treasuries through stablecoins. I think that Russian minister who I've mentioned on the show a couple times, so my audience will know it, he talked about how America has this plan to use the crypto cloud to reset the debt and use it via stablecoins and then Bitcoin sort of behind the scenes as the store of value, right? Can you talk about that? Do you agree?

我是说，看，这是一场美元化游戏。就像你如何将美元的霸权扩展到更多国家、更多目前无法获得美元的消费者？如果再有5亿人持有美元而非本国货币，这将带来大量地缘政治影响，从而为美国增加收入并扩大持有美国国债的人数。所以从美国的角度来看，我认为这是个非常有效的策略。但很多其他国家对此并不热衷，所以我们将拭目以待。

I mean, look, this is a dollarization play. It's like how do you extend the hegemony of the dollar to many more nations, to many more consumers that currently don't have access to dollars? So if you add another 500,000,000 people holding dollars instead of their local currencies, which is like it has a whole lot of geopolitical implications, then bring in more revenue America and number of people holding US treasuries. So I think that's a very valid strategy if you're looking at it from the American point of view. I think a lot of other nations are not that excited about that idea, so we'll have to see how it plays out.

还要记住，美元稳定币的运营者是你可以影响的公司——这又回到了比特币中立性的美妙之处。现在在欧洲，如果你和克里斯蒂娜·拉加德或其他任何人交谈，他们对美元在欧洲作为价值储存和记账单位取代欧元、阻碍他们按自己意愿实施货币政策的现象相当激动。我在Libra项目上就亲历过这种情况——当这种情况发生时结局并不愉快。

And also remember that the operators of the US dollar stablecoins are companies that you can influence back to the point about the beauty of the neutrality of Bitcoin. So in Europe right now, if you talk to Christine Lagarde or if you talk to anyone else, they're actually pretty animated about the US dollar taking hold in Europe as a store value and unit of account and supplanting the euro and preventing them from operating their own monetary policy in the way that they want. And I've experienced that firsthand with Libra. It's not a pleasant ending when that happens.

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现在都用比特币计价了。再次提醒，别忘了预定我的新书《比特币属于每个人》。回到节目，这实在太迷人了，因为一切似乎都在核心层面发生转变。美元曾经是这个体系的核心。

It's measured in Bitcoin. And again, don't forget to preorder my upcoming book, Bitcoin is for Everyone. Back to the show. It's just so fascinating because it seems like everything really is shifting at the core. Like, dollar was the core of the system.

自1971年以来就是这样建立的，每个人都不得不信任，对吧？我们不得不信任美国。希望它不要贬值太多，但事实已经发生了。我们利用了这一点。所以人们正在去美元化。

That's the way it was created ever since 1971, and everyone had to trust, right? We had to put the trust in United States. Not to debase too much, but we have been. We took advantage of that. And so people are de dollarizing.

他们不再持有美国国债。黄金价格一路飙升。

They're no longer holding the US Treasuries. Gold has been on a total tear.

是啊。

Yep.

我认为相比黄金，比特币被低估了。

I think Bitcoin's undervalued compared to gold.

完全同意。

Completely agree.

之后它会暴涨的。很想听听你的看法。但你认为最终会如何发展？因为我觉得没人会喜欢'重置'这个概念。美元会消亡。

It's gonna rip after. Would love to get your thoughts on that. But how do you see this ultimately maybe playing out? Because no one, I think, likes the idea of, oh, a reset. The dollar's gonna die.

天啊，这听起来像是恐慌。对吧？一场大崩盘即将来临。我要失去一切了。

Oh my gosh. That sounds like panic. Right? A huge crash is around the corner. I'm gonna lose everything.

我觉得事情是渐进的，对吧？这一切将如何发展，才能让美元摆脱长期以来的单极地位——这种地位既造福也损害了许多人？我们如何转向可能更加多极化、多货币化、中性储备资产的体系，比如黄金和比特币？

I feel like things are more gradual, right? How is this all gonna play out to maybe remove the dollar from the that unipolar position that it's had for a very long time to both the benefit and the detriment of many people? And how are we going to shift to something that's maybe more multipolar, multicurrency, neutral reserve asset, maybe gold and Bitcoin?

这是个好问题。当我们启动Libra时，天真地以为可以创建一个货币篮子，其中美元占最大比例，其次是欧元等。我们的想法是创建一个数字化的合成篮子，反映当今世界的经济贡献和价值，以及人们想持有的货币，同时安抚各国。但我们大错特错——现实是这种做法激怒了全世界，所有人都认为必须立即终止它。这反而成了让各国央行首次达成共识的成功指标。

It's a great question. I mean, when we started Libra, we were naive enough to think that we could create sort of basket of currencies that would actually have the dollar be the largest portion of it, but then have the euro, etcetera. The thinking was we can actually create a digital, a synthetic basket that actually represents the world today in terms of its economic contributions and values and what people want to hold And also appease like a lot of the different countries. We were so wrong because the reality is doing that really basically inflamed the whole world, like everyone agreed that this thing needed to die instantly. So you know, that's a success metric of like enabling all of the central bankers to agree on one thing for once.

但眼下美元仍将主导。我认为比特币是绝佳的泄压阀，是有史以来最好的泄压阀。正如你所说，相比黄金它被严重低估。人们和机构青睐黄金是有原因的——看看我们不负责任的财政政策和无节制印钞。这让我长期非常看好比特币的价值。但日常交易仍会使用美元、欧元、日元，甚至是表现良好的墨西哥比索、巴西雷亚尔或卢比等货币。

But look, think for now the dollar is here to stay. I think Bitcoin is a great escape valve, is the greatest escape valve ever. To your point, I think it's massively undervalued compared to gold. Like there's a reason there's an appreciation of gold by people and institutions looking at the way that's like, you know, our fiscal approach to how we continue printing and are not responsible and you know, that makes me very bullish on the value of Bitcoin over the long run. But I think for everyday transactions, the dollar or the euro or the Japanese yen or, you know, even the Mexican peso which is like a very good currency actually or the Brazilian real or the rupee is going to continue being the currencies that are going to be used for everyday transactions.

那么问题来了：未来的银行和货币存储是否会变成这样——如果本国货币可靠就使用本地货币，否则用美元稳定币作为活期账户，而用比特币作为储蓄账户？如何让这些资产高度可互换，能轻松在支付系统、国家和货币间转移，让个人和企业能真正持有所有重要货币和比特币的余额？

And then the question is, is the future basically of banking and money storage a sort of thing where you have a local currency if it's a good one or US Stablecoin if it's not a good one as your checking account balance and then you have a savings balance, which is Bitcoin. And how do you make those super fungible, really easy to move between payment systems and countries and currencies so that you can really, as a consumer or as a business, have balances in all of the currencies that actually matter and Bitcoin.

最近很多人讨论现实世界资产的代币化。我读到Spark平台支持资产代币化，你能谈谈吗？或许我们可以简单解析代币化的概念。普通人听到这个可能会想：股票有什么问题？虽然现在它们还不能24/7交易。

I've heard a lot of people talking about tokenization of real world assets lately. And so something else I was reading about with Spark is that it enables tokenizing assets Can as you speak to that? And maybe let's break down simply this idea of tokenization. Because the average person might hear that and think, well, what's wrong with stocks? I mean, yes, maybe they don't trade 20 fourseven right now.

但从技术上讲，代币化到底解决了什么问题？

But like technically what is tokenization solving for?

是的，我认为代币化本质上是一种将非完全数字化的资产转化为可分割使用的方式。比如你拥有一处房地产，通过代币化后，人们就能拥有该资产的百万分之一——因为你可以将其拆解到设计的原子级单位，而非物理实体的实际价值。另一个典型案例是股票代币化，比如想持有伯克希尔·哈撒韦的股票，单股价格昂贵，但代币化后你甚至可以拥有价值1美分的份额，这在传统股票市场是无法实现的。这确实是个有趣的创新。

Yeah, I think tokenization basically serves as a way to make something that's not really fully digital that you can use in small subatomic units of the thing you own easily into something that you can actually use in that way. So if you have a real estate property, if you tokenize that real estate property, then suddenly people can own one millionth of that thing because you can actually break it down onto the real subatomic unit that you would design it to be, not the actual value of the physical units. Another good example of that is like the tokenization of stocks, like if you want to own a stock of Berkshire Hathaway, like one stock is expensive. If you have tokenized version of Berkshire Hathaway, can own 1¢ of it if you want, which you can't do of the stock because the stock price per share is much higher. And so I think it's an interesting thing.

我们在Spark上观察到的现象非常有意思——代币化功能原本是为支持稳定币支付设计的（毕竟我们是支付公司），但现在许多企业开始基于此构建MemeCoin发射台等多样化应用。因为Spark支持代币化和快速兑换，所以平台上涌现出大量钱包、发射台等生态组件，这些并非我们刻意规划，却自然形成了网络效应。更妙的是，这为我们带来了数十万乃至未来数亿的用户钱包增长，这些用户通过Spark持有比特币和稳定币余额。

What we're seeing on Spark is really interesting because the tokenization capability was really designed to support stablecoin payments because we're a payments company. And what's been happening is actually that you have a bunch of companies now starting to build MemeCoin launchpads and all kinds of different things because you support tokenization and fast swaps on top of Spark. And so we're seeing an explosion of wallets and launch pads and all of these things that are happening that, you know, were not by design but are happening on the network. And a nice side effect it has for us is that it creates hundreds of thousands of wallets, soon to be millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of wallets for people wanting to trade and get on the network. And they have a Bitcoin balance on Spark, and they have a stablecoin balance on Spark.

现在它们不仅成为支付网络的终端节点，更是这些交易所之上的交易端点。

And now they become endpoints on a payment network, as well as trading endpoints on top of those exchanges.

这个视角很有趣。过去听到代币化我总会皱眉，因为总是建立在其他区块链上。当听到拉里·芬克等大人物在CNBC高谈'万物皆可代币化'时更是如此。但你描述的基于比特币的代币化，听起来真正实现了全球资产碎片化持有的民主化与去中心化。比特币最震撼我的正是其全球可达性——80亿人的潜在市场。

So this is interesting because when I used to hear tokenization, I would cringe a little because it was always built on these other blockchains. And you would hear big names like Larry Fink going on, CNBC talking about how everything's gonna be tokenized. But the way you're describing it, especially built on top of Bitcoin, it almost sounds like it's democratizing and decentralizing access really around the world to being able to own fractions of assets. Because one thing that I always found amazing about Bitcoin is it's accessible to literally the whole world. It has a total addressable market of 8,000,000,000 people.

在发展中国家，你可以持有比特币的零头，却无法拥有迈阿密海滩房产的碎片或外国股票的份额。而这技术让你能24/7全球投资。

And you could be in a developing country and you could own just a fraction of Bitcoin, right? You can't own a fraction of a Miami beachfront property or a fraction of stocks in another country. But this essentially allows you to be able to do that and invest around the world 20 fourseven.

没错，这本质上是第三方的发展路径。虽然非我们主业，但作为无许可网络，生态建设不由我们决定——开源特性让开发者能自由构建。

Yeah, I mean, yes, absolutely. This is actually a way for third parties. This is, again, not our focus, but it's a permission less network. So our opinion doesn't count into what people build on top of it. It's open source, it's permissionless, it runs, people can build stuff.

就像那些建立在Spark上的发射台、AMM等市场，都不是我们规划的。任何首次在比特币上代币化的资产都能如此运作。与其他链的关键差异在于：任何时候你都能单方面退出到比特币L1。比特币L1的抗审查特性——没有任何机构/个人/组织能挪用资金——同样适用于Spark上发行的资产，这才是其超越'廉价快速'的真正价值所在。

Like you had like those LaunchPads and playgrounds all of those marketplaces, AMMs that are being built on top of Spark, we didn't decide that, it's just happening. And so the same can be true for all kinds of different assets that you would wanna tokenize for the first time on Bitcoin. And again, you have like the distinct difference between this and another blockchain is that at any given point in time, going to have the ability to unilaterally exit to Bitcoin L1. So the trust that you have in Bitcoin L1 and the fact that no one corporation, person, group, consortium, foundation can actually mess with your funds is actually still valid for anything that you issue on Spark, which really is why it actually matters on top of being cheap and fast.

那么你认为目前比特币的采用率处于什么阶段？因为每当我走出比特币生态圈，不参加比特币活动和会议时，每天都会遇到这样的人，他们说：比特币，我来晚了。就是这样。它会被量子计算机攻破。你会怎么回应这些人？

So where do you think we are right now in terms of adoption? Because whenever outside of the Bitcoin ecosystem and our Bitcoin events and conferences, I encounter people daily that are like, Bitcoin, I'm too late. It's this. It's going to be hacked by Quantum. Like what do you say to people?

你认为我们现在处于周期的哪个阶段？

And where do you think we are in terms of the cycle?

是啊，这挺有意思的。我昨天在纽约参加了一个由城堡证券组织的关于数字资产的讨论会。我的一位同台嘉宾问现场大约450人——他们都是城堡证券客户，全球最大的机构投资者——有多少人持有比特币？说实话我很震惊，现场大多数人都持有比特币，而这些可都是非常传统的金融人士。

Yeah, it's kind of interesting. I was in New York yesterday and I was speaking on a panel that was put together by Citadel Securities about digital assets. And one of my co panelists asked the room it was like about four fifty people that are like some of the world's largest institutional investors that are clients of Citadel. And like we asked them, like he asked them like how many people own Bitcoin? And I was shocked actually, the majority of the room own Bitcoin and those are very Tratfy people.

接着又问有多少人持有以太坊？没那么多，明显只有比特币持有者的一半甚至四分之一。然后问有多少人用过稳定币？大概只有十分之一的人。再问谁买过模因币或任何类型的代币？结果只有一个人。

And then the same question was like how many of you own ETH? Not that many, like it was like clearly at least half that or if not a quarter of that. And then the next question was how many of you have played with stablecoins? And it was like maybe a tenth of the room if And then the next question was like who bought like a meme coin or a token of any sort? And it was one guy.

这个趋势很有意思。几乎所有人都持有比特币，这非常耐人寻味。要知道这个房间里的人——我之所以提到这点——传统上他们本应是对比特币最抵触的群体，或者来自对比特币敌意很深的公司，如今时代已经发生了翻天覆地的变化。所以我认为现在还早，就像你说的，如果随机问街上的人是否持有比特币，绝大多数人可能还是没有。这反而令人兴奋，因为目前全球持有者可能还只有几亿人，所以上升空间实在太大了。

And so it's kind of flowing But almost everyone owned Bitcoin, which is kind of really interesting. And this is a room that, and the reason I'm mentioning that because this is a room that traditionally would have been very resistant to Bitcoin or be part of companies that would be very antagonistic to Bitcoin and now the times have changed so profoundly. So I think, you know, it's still early because to your point, if you ask most people in the street if they own Bitcoin, probably the vast majority still don't. And that's exciting because if we have it's still in the hundreds of millions, low hundreds of millions of unique older holders, I think, at this point. So the upside is just so massive.

确实如此。我的意思是，那些持有比特币的人很多都不愿意花掉它。你如此关注闪电网络和支付功能，流动性到底有多重要？你会鼓励人们使用比特币吗？当它是最佳表现资产且人人都想囤积时，你的价值主张是什么？

That's true. I mean, the people that do hold Bitcoin, though, a lot of them do not want to spend it. And so you focusing so much on the Lightning Network and the payments component, how important is liquidity? Like, do you encourage people to use Bitcoin? And how do you what's your value proposition for that when it's the best performing asset and everyone just wants to hoard it?

这个问题非常好，因为这正是人们对我们产品构建方式的误解所在。目前即使你不是SoFi银行客户，也可以开通SoFi支票账户持有美元。由于接入了这个网络，你就能在完全不知情的情况下通过比特币网络进行跨境汇款——对消费者而言根本感受不到比特币网络的存在。比如你向墨西哥某人转账美元余额，完全不知道背后是比特币在支撑，整个过程都隐于无形。我们坚信互联网解放了信息，而比特币将解放货币。就像互联网一样，最好的技术是让人感受不到的技术。

Yeah, so this is such a great question because this is also something that's misunderstood about the way that we build the product. So right now, you can if you're not a SoFi bank account client, if you don't have a bank account with SoFi, you can actually go on SoFi, open a bank account and have a checking account and have dollars. And then because now they're on the network, you can start sending money abroad using the Bitcoin network without ever knowing as a consumer that you're using the Bitcoin network. So you're sending a dollar balance to someone in Mexico again and you don't know, it's powered by Bitcoin and it all fades in the background And we really believe that the internet freed information and Bitcoin is going to free money. And like the internet, it's invisible.

这是一个概念，你理解它，但你不把互联网当作一个实体来思考。你只是在使用它。我们认为比特币也会如此——当所有银行、金融机构以及所有能够转移价值的终端都真正连接到网络时。我们正专注于以各种方式将这些机构引入网络，根据它们的能力触及资金需要到达的每一个角落。

It's a concept, you understand it, but you're not thinking about the internet as a thing. You're just using it. And we think Bitcoin will be the same once all of the banks and the financial institutions and all of the endpoints that can move value are actually connected on the network. And that's what we're focused on is like bringing all of these institutions to the network in a variety of different ways depending on their capabilities to reach every last point where money needs to go on the So Bitcoin

我最近邀请了马特·派恩斯上节目。他说过一句话：如果比特币仅仅作为价值存储，那它就失败了。你同意吗？

I had Matt Pines on my show recently. And one of the things he said is, if Bitcoin is only a store of value, it has failed. Do you agree I

同意。是的，我完全同意。但我觉得我们需要拆解这句话——它需要成为价值存储，网络才能安全可靠，这是前提。

agree. With Yeah, I fully agree. Yeah. But I think we need to unpack that. It's like it needs to be a store value for the network to be secure, trusted, and all that.

所以这是实现中本聪愿景的必要步骤：成为日常支付工具。在实现日常支付的过程中，有两种思路：一种是直接用比特币作为日常支付的记账单位，基于我们讨论过的原因，这还很遥远；另一种是将其作为法币与稳定币之间的中立结算网络和资产，这正在发生。

So it's a prerequisite step for it to become what Satoshi wanted it to be, which is everyday payments. On the way to everyday payments, there are two ways to think about this. One is actually using Bitcoin to unit of account for everyday payments. I think we're far from that for the reasons we discussed. But I think using Bitcoin as a neutral settlement network and asset to move between fiat currencies and to move stablecoins, this is happening now.

未来五年内，比特币将大规模成为主流，我认为每年将有数万亿美元价值通过比特币网络转移。到那时，比特币将完全进入实用阶段。部分场景中人们会开始收发以比特币计价的支付，剩下的就交给时间。

And in the next five years, it's going to become mainstream in a massive way and I think it's going to start moving trillions of dollars of value every year on top of the Bitcoin network. And I think when that happens, Bitcoin will have fully entered its utility phase And in some cases, people will start receiving and sending payment denominated in Bitcoin. And then time will do its thing.

好的，那么25年后的2195年（注：原文年份表述有误），描述一下比特币的使用场景：我们能直接点对点交易吗？所有交易是否都经过监控，通过建立在比特币L2上的中介机构完成？25年后的比特币会是什么样？

Okay, so twenty five years from now, the year is 02/1950, describe to me how Bitcoin is being used. Are we able to peer to peer exchange? Is everything monitored and surveilled and sort of going through intermediaries that have built on top of Bitcoin, on top of L2s? What does Bitcoin look like twenty five years from now?

实际上这些形态会共存：既需要完全非托管（或尽可能去信任化）的钱包，能直接单向提现到比特币L1层，这样出现问题时无需依赖任何实体就能取出资金；同时银行（或类似功能机构）仍会存在以提供借贷服务——有借贷就必须有存款机制。我认为银行仍需受监管，要在网络中转移资金就必须满足合规要求。

So it's actually all of these things. I think the reality is you need both self custody wallets that are fully trustless or as trustless as possible with a unilateral exit to Bitcoin L1 so that you don't have someone or some entity that you depend on to get your funds out if there's an issue, and that's one part of the thing, then banks are still going to be around like, you know, or something that functions like a bank that is capable of lending. And if you need to lend, you have to have deposits and so that will still need to exist. And I think banks will still need to be regulated. And so if banks are regulated, then for them to move money on the network, they need to meet their compliance obligations.

问题在于，我们能在多大程度上推动银行、银行业、银行监管机构和支付监管机构开始接受银行向自托管钱包转账（在一定限额内）？我们是否已解决便携式身份验证问题，使得自托管钱包能拥有某种形式的KYC令牌，从而在超过特定限额时仍能接收来自银行和受监管金融机构的付款？这些都是我们需要共同解决的难题，才能使网络发挥最大容量和效用——我相信我们能做到。到那时，就像你现在拥有现金和账户一样，你将拥有具备不同功能的各种账户。无论身处世界何处，你都能持有数字货币余额，而比特币必将以资产或底层结算网络的形式存在。届时比特币将100%胜出，成为真正的'货币互联网'，全球资金都将通过它流动。

And the question is how far out can we move the cursor in terms of getting the banks, the banking industry, the banking regulators and the payments regulators to start being comfortable for banks to start sending money to self custody wallets up to certain limits? Have we solved portable ID so that you can have a self custody wallet but you can have a KYC token of sorts where for transactions above a certain limit, you can receive those payments from banks and regulated financial institutions. All of these are problems that we collectively need to solve for the network to work to its max capacity and max utility, and I think we will. By then, it's just going to be you know, the same way that you have cash and accounts, you'll have different accounts which will have different capabilities and depending on where you are in the world, you'll always have an ability to have a store of balance with digital money in it and Bitcoin will definitely be there either as an asset or as an underlying settlement network. And Bitcoin by then will have absolutely 100% won and become the Internet of Money where all of the money in the world actually moves.

说得好。在大家聚焦AI的当下，这个体系是否包含AI组件？比如微支付和AI之间的相互支付？

Well said. With everyone's mind on AI, is there an AI component to this? Like the micro payments and AI is actually paying each other as well?

当然，毫无疑问。我认为商业界面将发生变革——未来不再有带支付按钮的网站和应用，而是通过对话界面直接告诉你的AI代理：'嘿，帮我买对超酷的比特币耳环'，它就会自动搜寻并完成购买。你可以设定代理的可支配金额，让它自主消费。当然，这一切都需要运行在去中心化的实时网络上。

Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, look, I think commerce interfaces are going to change. We're not going to have websites and apps with payment buttons, you're going to have a conversational interface and you're going to ask your AI agent, hey, buy me some really cool Bitcoin earrings and it's just going to go find them and buy them for you and you're going to delegate an amount that the agent is going to be able to spend and it's going to go and spend it. And of course, all of this needs to run on real time networks that's decentralized.

如果我是现在的AI实例或代理，当被要求选择在人类控制的网络还是代码控制的网络上转移价值时，AI永远会选择后者——这就是比特币的意义所在。关键是如何让AI以最低成本、最高效率为商户等群体转移他们所需的实际货币价值？若能实现，比特币还将成为AI代理的结算层。

If I'm an AI today, like if I'm an AI instance or agent and you would ask me to choose whether I'd want to move value on top of a network that's controlled by humans or controlled by code, an AI will always pick the latter which is Bitcoin, that's the thing. And so how do you make it actually move value for merchants, etcetera, in the actual currency that they need at the lowest cost in the most efficient way? And if you do that, Bitcoin then becomes also the settlement layer for AI agents.

好的，在结束前，关于Spark还有什么想补充的吗？

Okay, so before we wrap up, anything else you want to share about Spark?

Spark方面，我们已经有了稳定币和可扩展的比特币钱包。另外可以谈谈我们新发布的产品Grid，详情可访问grid.lightspark.com。基本上我会...

No, Spark, I think we have stablecoins, scalable Bitcoin wallets. I think the one thing we could talk about as well is this new product that we announced, which is called Grid, which is you can go in and find out more about it at grid.lightspark.com. Basically I'll

附上链接。

link that.

简单来说，我们将过去三年构建的所有功能模块化拆分，使开发者现在能够将比特币作为结算网络，用于实现各种前所未有的场景。企业可以在我方开户存入美元，只需一个API调用就能实时将美元汇至欧洲的IBAN账户并兑换成欧元——这一切都通过比特币网络完成结算。您还可以将比特币转入临时创建的钱包，或发送稳定币，在全球70多个国家实时转账至银行账户，利用比特币网络对接各国本土实时支付系统。我们认为这对全球开发者而言是重大突破，现在他们能以比特币为核心构建各类资金流动应用，包括付款收款、跨境汇款、银行间转账、资金管理等。

Basically, we've unbundled all of the capabilities that we've built over the last three years so that developers can now start to use Bitcoin as a settlement network for all kinds of things that weren't possible before. So as a business, you can open an account with us, you can deposit dollars and now with a simple API call, you can either beam those dollars to someone in Europe that wants to receive euros to an IBAN in real time it'll happen and settle on top of Bitcoin. You can do that, you know, and send Bitcoin to a wallet that you just spin up, you can send stablecoins and you can do that globally in 70 plus countries where you wanna move money in real time all the way to the bank account that's connected to the domestic real time payment trail of that country using the Bitcoin network. So we think this is a massively powerful step for developers all around the world that will have the ability to now build money movement apps for payouts, for pay ins, for cross border remittances, for bank to bank transfers and treasury management, for all kinds of different applications using Bitcoin at the core.

听起来像是中央银行不再那么强势的世界，像SWIFT这样的网络也不再被需要。我说得对吗？

I mean, sounds like a world where central banks are not as powerful, where something like the SWIFT network is not as needed. Am I right?

SWIFT网络确实首当其冲——想想看，通过SWIFT和代理行转账需要3-5天，每笔手续费50美元，周五下午5点后和周末还不能操作。至于中央银行，在法币对法币转账领域，他们确实掌控着本国货币和支付能力，而且必须承认这些支付系统已经进步很多。本土实时支付系统如今已非常普及，运作良好且成本低廉。利用这些系统作为'最后一公里'，各国能在本土掌控自己的金融命脉，而比特币则可以作为连接各国货币支付系统的互操作层。

SWIFT network definitely, like if you look at SWIFT and correspondent banking that takes three to five days to and costs $50 a pop to actually move money and can't work Friday after 5PM or on weekends, yes, like that's definitely the thing that's the most at risk. I think the central banks, like if you look at a fiat to fiat transfer, they will control like their countries, currencies and payments capabilities and those payments capabilities to their credit have evolved quite a bit. So domestic real time payment rails are now really prevalent everywhere and it works really well and it's cheap. And so using those as the last mile, they can control their own destiny in their own countries and then Bitcoin can be used as an interoperability layer between all of these countries and currencies and payment systems.

真有意思。好吧，在结束之前——现在人人都在预测2030年2月的天价，有说100万、150万甚至200万美元的。老实说...

Fascinating. Okay. Well, before I let you go, everyone's got these massive price predictions for 02/1930. I'm talking a million, 1,500,000.0, 2,000,000. I'm gonna be honest.

我实在难以相信。回想四年前2021年，我们在加密寒冬前创下历史高点，而这四年价格才翻了一倍。你们现在告诉我接下来四年会涨六倍？能谈谈你们对比特币价格的预期吗？

I I have a hard time believing it. I think about four years ago, 2021, when we had hit the last all time high before we had our crypto winter, And we've only really doubled from there in four years. So you guys are telling me that in four years we're going to 6x from here. Can you talk to me about where you anticipate Bitcoin's price

未来几年？我可以肯定地说：我对趋势判断还行，但对时机把握极差。可能是五年，也可能是十年。

in the next couple of years? I can tell you one thing. I'm decent at directional predictions. I'm terrible at timing them. So it might be five years, but it might also be ten years.

具体说不准。但我认为比特币终将比黄金更值钱。按当前金价换算，每枚比特币价值130万美元。

I don't know. But I think Bitcoin will be more valuable than gold. And at today's gold price, it's $1,300,000 a bitcoin.

它的市值会超过黄金吗？

That it'll have a higher market cap than gold?

哦，随着时间的推移，肯定会。我想说的是，比特币是黄金的升级版。当第一批黄金ETF推出时，他们开始开采更多黄金。但比特币可没法这样增发。

Oh, Over time, for sure. I think I mean, it's such a much better version of gold. I mean, when the first gold ETFs were launched, they started mining more gold. You can't do that with Bitcoin.

没错。

Right.

所以我认为比特币优越得多——实际上很多人，包括最近克里斯蒂娜·拉加德都说比特币没有内在价值。但说真的，人们常说的黄金内在价值不过是能做成首饰佩戴。拜托，这算什么价值？比特币通过代码保障的底层稀缺性才是其内在价值。这是唯一天然通缩的东西。

And so I think Bitcoin is so much better, has actually, I think a lot of people, including recently Christine Lagarde was saying like Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. But like, you know, the general tale that people tell about the gold intrinsic value is that you can wear as jewelry. I mean, come on, seriously? Like, you know, the underlying scarcity of Bitcoin secured by code is the intrinsic value. This is the only thing that's deflationary by nature.

因此我认为它是黄金的升级版。它是数字化的，可以自由转移。比做成首饰的黄金具有更强的可互换性。所以我确信它的价值终将超越黄金。

And so I think it's a better version than gold. It's digital, you can move it around. It's way more fungible than gold that you wear as jewelry. And so I think it'll be worth more than gold for sure.

别担心，你也能'佩戴'比特币。非常感谢大卫，和你交流总是很愉快。我超爱关注你，你让我充满看涨信心。

You can wear your Bitcoin, don't worry. No, thank you so much, David. It's always great to talk to you. I love following you. You make me feel super bullish.

你拥有如此丰富的机构经验，这让你极具公信力。我知道很多人都感激你作为比特币人在这个领域坚守正义。感谢你的参与，也谢谢你允许我来你办公室做客。

And you have such institutional experience. So it gives you a lot of credibility as well. I know a lot of people are very grateful that you're a Bitcoiner in this space fighting the good fight. So thanks for joining me, thanks for allowing me to be here in your office.

谢谢。

Thank you.

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