秋季文学沙龙：汤婷婷、刘爱美、黄莉莉与许彼得

大家好，欢迎来到加州联邦俱乐部世界事务部。我是米歇尔·喵，俱乐部理事会成员，同时我也在这里制作一档名为《米歇尔·喵秀》的节目。这是一档涵盖LGBT、LMNOP及所有人群的节目。非常感谢大家今晚的到来。我想不出比此刻更重要的时刻来聚首一堂，共同构建社群，并支持像俱乐部这样的组织。

Hello, and welcome to the Commonwealth Club World Affairs of California. I'm Michelle Meow, a member of the board of governors for the club, and also I produce a program here at the club called the Michelle Meow Show. It's your a three z covering the LGBT, LMNOP, and everyone in between. Thank you so much for being here tonight. I can't think of any more of an important time to gather to be in community, but also to support an organization like the club.

俱乐部已有一百二十多年的历史，建立在无党派原则之上。它是美国历史最悠久、持续运营时间最长的公共事务论坛。其宗旨是汇聚思想领袖——无论他们来自何方、背景如何、身份是谁——共同探讨关乎公众利益的话题。因此，我想强调这些原则对我们人类至关重要：表达自由、思想自由、言论自由。如果今晚您深受触动、灵感迸发，且是首次到场并希望成为会员支持俱乐部，请随时联系我。

It's been around for over a hundred and twenty years and was founded on this principle of being nonpartisan. It's the oldest and longest running public affairs forum in the country. It is focused on gathering thought leaders no matter where they're from, what background, who they are, to discuss topics concerning of the public. And so I just wanna be able to express that these principles are very important to us as human beings, the freedom to express ourselves, the freedom to think, the freedom to say. So if you feel compelled tonight and you're inspired and you're here for the first time and would like to become a member to support the club, please see me.

我会在外场走动，尤其是在签书环节期间。在活动开始前，先提醒几点注意事项：洗手间就在门外；请将手机调至静音；本次活动正在现场录制以供播出。

I'll be out there floating around, especially during the book signing. Just some housekeeping things before we begin our program. Bathrooms are right outside the door. Please silence your phones. We are recording this live for broadcast.

如果需要，这里还有一个非常宜人的屋顶天台，是我们的禅意天台。如果您需要片刻呼吸空间，它随时为您开放。闲话少叙，让我们正式开始活动。我很荣幸向大家介绍我们的好朋友——红母鸡出版社。

There's also a very nice rooftop if you need it. It's our Zen rooftop. So if you need a moment to breathe, it's there for you. So without further ado, let's get our program started. I'd like to introduce to you our good friends at Red Hen Press.

让我们欢迎凯特·盖尔和托比·哈珀·皮特里。

Let's welcome Kate Gale and Toby Harper Petrie.

我们非常高兴今天能来到这里。我是凯特·盖尔，红母鸡出版社的创始人、首席执行官兼出版人。我很荣幸今天与托比一同出席，并对联邦俱乐部和米歇尔的热情接待表示衷心感谢。

We are delighted to be here today. I'm Kate Gale. I'm the founder, CEO, and publisher of Red Hen Press. And I'm delighted to be here today with Toby. And we're very grateful to the Commonwealth Club and to Michelle for welcoming us here.

我想说，当米歇尔邀请我们在9月11日举办这场活动时，我曾想，哇，这真是个意义非凡的日子。但我觉得，马克辛，我们会为此做好准备的。我认为没问题。但最近几天，我开始意识到，这一天变得愈发意义重大。因此，我想谈谈今天这个日子。

I will say that when Michelle invited us to have this event on nineeleven, I thought, wow, it's a bit of a momentous day. But I thought, you know, Maxine, we'll be ready for that. I I thought that's gonna be okay. But in the last couple days, I started to think, wow, this has become more of a momentous day. And so I wanna say this about today.

这就是我一直提醒我的年轻员工的话，从选举以来我就一直在提醒他们。红母鸡出版社的所有员工很大程度上是一个由女性领导、倾向酷儿群体的出版社。在那里工作的每个人都是千禧一代和Z世代，自选举以来感觉非常令人焦虑。我们是一家小型出版社，位于洛杉矶。

This is what I remind my young staff of, and I have been reminding them ever since the election. All of the staff at Red Hen were very much a woman led, queer leaning press. Everybody working there is millennial and Gen Z, and it's it's felt very fraught since the election. We are a small press. We're in Los Angeles.

而洛杉矶对艺术组织来说是个糟糕的地方，对文学艺术组织来说更是糟糕。然后国家艺术基金会没了，国家人文基金会也没了，很多其他资金也消失了。接着火灾来了，甚至更多资金消失了，包括我们的屋顶。感觉2025年简直是一团糟。我提醒员工的是，重要的是你如何穿越火海。在这个时期维持一家出版社运营非常具有挑战性。

And Los Angeles is a is a terrible place to have an arts organization, and an even worse place to have a literary arts organization. And then the NEA went away, and then the NEH went away, and a lot of other funding went away, And then the fires came and even more funding went away, including our roof. And it's just felt like 2025 was a bit of a shit show. And what I remind my staff of is what matters is how you walk through fire. Keeping a press going during this time is very challenging.

在这个时期维持生活运转非常具有挑战性。对我们所有人来说，优雅地生活都很困难，但我们必须做到。我们必须继续尽可能以最大的优雅对待彼此。我们必须继续创作伟大的艺术。红母鸡要生存下去、要蓬勃发展并继续创作出你们今晚将在这里听到的那种优秀书籍，需要尽可能多的慷慨支持。

Keeping a life going during this time is very challenging. Living with grace is very challenging for all of us, but we must do it. We must continue to treat each other with as much grace as we can. We must continue to create great art. And it's gonna take as much generosity as possible for Red Hen to survive and for Red Hen to thrive and continue to create the kind of great books that you're going to hear here tonight.

我感到非常非常幸运能与托比·哈珀这样的人共事，他帮助我领导这支年轻团队。很多时候，面对他们提出的一些疯狂问题，我可能会不知所措。所以能与你共事我非常幸运，托比。非常感谢你今晚能在这里陪我。

I feel very, very lucky to be working with someone like Toby Harper who's helped me lead this team of young people. I think many times I would be at sea with some of the wild questions they come up with. And so I'm very lucky to be working with you, Toby. Thank you so much for being here with me this evening.

是的。我很高兴能来到这里。我大约十年前在旧金山州立大学读研究生时第一次读到汤婷婷的作品。所以今天能和汤婷婷一起在这里，感觉非常圆满。我在红母鸡出版社已经工作了十年，全职、兼职，时间比那还要长一点。

Yeah. I'm very pleased to be here. I read Maxine Hong Kongson for the first time in grad school when I was here at SFSU about ten years ago. So it's very full circle to be here today with Maxine. I've been at Red Hen now for ten years full time, part time, a bit longer than that.

我非常自豪能领导这个团队，非常高兴能领导这个团队。这相当了不起。我们出版不可思议的书籍。真的，人们问我们红母鸡的书是什么样的？有点难以描述，但我认为红母鸡的书有点像一本狂野的书，有点像你在月球暗面会看到的那种故事，是你从未见过的东西。

And I am very proud to be leading this team, very happy to be leading this team. It's pretty amazing. We publish incredible books. We really people ask us what's a Red Hen book like? And it's a little hard to describe, but I think of a Red Hen book as being sort of a a wild book, sort of the sort of story you'll see on the dark side of the moon, something you haven't seen before.

是那种真正萦绕心头的故事，你知道，是那种你会在未来多年里不断思考的书，未来多年里不断回味的故事。这确实是我们今天邀请这些你们将见到的作者的部分原因。因为他们写的故事是那些真正与你同在、真正深入你内心的故事。并且，你知道，真正带你走向未来。说到未来，我正在接受培训，准备成为红母鸡出版社的领导者。

The kind of story that really lingers, you know, the sort of the books that you think about for years to come, the stories you you think about for years to come. And that's really part of why we've invited these authors here today that you'll see. Because the stories that they write are the ones that really stay with you, that really sink into you. And really, you know, carry you into the future. And speaking of the future, I am training to be the leader of Red Hen Press.

凯特已经培训我多年，未来还将继续培训我很多年。这已经持续了大约三十年，所以还有很多需要学习。我对此感到非常兴奋。我很高兴能成为红母鸡未来的一部分，希望你们今天享受所爱，迈向未来。如果你们想了解更多关于加入红母鸡、参与我们的作者、故事或活动的信息，请在演出结束后随时找我和凯特。

Kate has been training me for many years and will train me for many more years. It's been around thirty years, so there's a lot more to learn. And I'm very excited to do that. I'm excited to be part of the future of Red Hen, and, I hope you enjoy what you enjoy today, takes you into the future. And if you'd like to learn any more about being part of Red Hen or being involved with our authors or stories or events, please feel free to see me or Kate after the show.

接下来，我们将介绍我们的主持人黄莉莉，她将介绍我们的作者。非常感谢大家。

And, next up, we will be introducing our moderator, Lily Huang, who will introduce our authors. Thank you very much.

大家好。非常感谢各位。能来到这里真是莫大的荣幸。感谢凯特和托比，也感谢联邦政府接待我们。在9月11日，有12架飞机撞向纽约的世界贸易中心，第三架飞机撞击了五角大楼，导致2977人丧生。

Hi. Thank you all. It is such, an honor to be here. So thank you to Kate and Toby, and thank you to the Commonwealth for hosting us. So, on September '12 planes flew into the World Trade Centers in New York City, and a third plane collided into the Pentagon, killing 2,977 people.

今天是那场袭击的二十四周年纪念日。为了纪念反恐战争中的受害者，请大家默哀片刻。我稍后会介绍作家们。但大家都知道今天的日程安排。我会介绍作家们。

Today is the twenty fourth anniversary of that attack. In remembrance of the victims of the war on terror, please take a moment of silence. And, so I I will introduce the writers in just a moment. But everybody knows what the schedule will look like today. I will introduce the writers.

每位作家会朗读一点他们的创作作品，然后我们会进行对话。最初我们计划有观众提问环节，但看来没有安排。所以今晚不会有观众问答环节。最后，我会简短朗读我即将出版的新书来结束今晚的活动。作家们会在外面售书处签名，并以更非正式的方式回答额外问题，直到晚上8点。

Each writer will read from their creative work for a little bit, and then we'll have a conversation. Initially, we were going to have questions from the audience, but I think that that has not happened. And so we will not be having a Q and A with the audience. And then I'll close out the evening with a very brief reading from my forthcoming book. Authors will be available to sign their books, which are on sale right outside, and answer any additional questions in a more informal way until 08:00.

哦，还有提问环节。好吧，好的。谢谢。那么在6点50分，我们会看看观众的问题。

Oh, there are questions. Boy, okay. Okay. Well, thank you. So at 06:50, we will look at the the audience questions.

好的。以下是我们的作家们。我想你们认识这个小组中的一些人。彼得·祖是一位台裔美国作家，著有短篇小说集《如果我是海洋，我会带你回家》。他在加州大学洛杉矶分校扩展作家项目教授创意写作，并在加州帕萨迪纳的历史悠久的罗曼书店主办活动。

Okay. So here are our writers. I think you know some of the folks on this panel. Pete Tzu is a Taiwanese American author of the short story collection If I Were the Ocean, I'd Carry You Home. He teaches creative writing at UCLA Extension Writers Program and hosts events at the historic Romans Bookstore in Pasadena, California.

艾米·卢是小说《闪光屋》、《冷山》和《面孔》以及回忆录《收获：饮食失调后生活的真相》和《单人纸牌》的畅销书作者。她在华盛顿州汤森港的戈达德学院教授艺术硕士课程，其余时间则从事照片绘画创作。听完第一个问题后你就会明白这一点。不过，美国空军学院教授马克辛·洪金斯顿的《女勇士》，为女兵们提供了一种神话体系。她最喜爱的奖项——因为实在太多了——包括克林顿总统颁发的国家人文奖章和奥巴马总统颁发的国家艺术奖章。

Amy Lu is the bestselling author of the novels Flash House, Cold Mountain, and Face, and the memoirs Gaining, the Truth About Life After Eating Disorders and Solitaire. She teaches in Goddard College's MFA program in Port Townsend, Washington, and she spends the rest of her time photo painting. You'll understand this after the first question. But, the US Air Force Academy teaches Maxine Hockingston's The Woman Warrior, and it gives giving the women soldiers a mythos. Her favorite awards, because there are so many, are the National Humanities Medals from the from president Clinton and the National Medal of Arts from president Obama.

我想我们都读过您的作品，您对我们的影响如此巨大。所以，非常感谢您。好了，请让我们开始朗读吧，也许我们可以...您想先开始吗？

I think we have all read your work, and you have influenced us so tremendously. So, thank you so much. Okay, please let's read and maybe we'll go Do you wanna start?

当然，我可以先开始。是的，谢谢。谢谢你，莉莉。所以我上次朗读的是...其实是我书中一个故事的结尾节选。这个故事叫做《肥犊》，讲述的是一个在弗吉尼亚长大的混血孩子的故事。

Sure, I can start. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Lily. So the last time I'm reading And I read a excerpt, actually the ending of one of the stories from my book. The story is called the fatted calf, and it's about a, like, mixed race kid who's grew up in Virginia.

他要离开了，还欠邻居一些钱。他们不再说话了，但他想在离开前顺道去还清债务。我上次读这个故事是在2024年11月6日，也就是上次选举之后。所以在美国语境下另一个重大事件的第二天再次读它，感觉有些奇怪。但事实就是如此。

He's leaving, and he owes his neighbor, like, some money. They don't talk anymore, but he wanted to drop by and, like, repay the debt before he left. I last read this story on 11/06/2024 after the last election. So it seems odd to be reading it again the day after another very large event in our American context. But so it is.

这个孩子的名字叫普林斯顿。想要还钱的那个人叫大J。我挪了挪椅子。挎包从我腿上滑落了一点。我在它掉下去之前接住，然后把它夹在两膝之间。

So the kid's name is Princeton. The guy who's trying to repay, his name is Big J. I shifted my chair. The satchel slips a little off my lap. I catch it before it falls and then prop it up in between my knees.

大J似乎没有注意到。他摇了摇头，然后说了些关于珍妮特吉他弹得真好的话，接着完全改变了话题，开始问我关于学校的事情。我意识到他不知道我已经毕业了。“哦，该死，”我说，“我毕业了。”

Big j doesn't seem to notice. He shakes his head and then says something about how Janet's really good on the guitar and then changes the subject altogether and starts asking me about school. I realized that he doesn't know that I graduated. Oh, shit, I say. I graduated.

“大J，我完成了。”“哦，该死，”他说，“哎呀，普林斯顿。恭喜啊。哇。”

Big j, I'm done. Oh, shit, he says. Well, damn it, Princeton. Congratulations. Wow.

你是个大学毕业生。天哪。恭喜你。我试着为没告诉他而道歉，说只是大专学历。

You're a college graduate. My god. Congratulations. I try to apologize for not telling him. I say it's just junior college.

他说他本来想参加毕业典礼的。我告诉他甚至没有典礼，尽管实际上有。然后他问我现在在做什么。我不想提我要离开小镇的事，所以只说我要继续写我的书。

He says he he'd have liked to come to the ceremony. And I tell him there wasn't even a ceremony, even though there was one. Then he asks what I'm doing now. I don't wanna get into my leaving town. So I just say that I'm going to work on my book.

他说，那很好。是那个关于太空人的故事吗？我说是宇航员，不过对，就是那个。很好，我一直喜欢那个故事。

And he says, that's good. That one about the spaceman? Astronaut, I say, but yeah, that one. That's good. I always liked that story.

让他想起了《阴阳魔界》之类的。确实如此，我的灵感来自《阴阳魔界》的一集，宇航员降落在一个星球上，所有人都像雕像一样 frozen。结果那个星球其实是某种天堂，每个人都在自己最喜欢的记忆里度过永恒，不管那记忆是什么——赢得选美比赛那天、当上市长那天、钓到限额的鱼那天，诸如此类。

Reminding me of a twilight zone and whatnot. This is true. I got the idea from a twilight zone, the one where astronauts land on a planet where everyone is frozen like statues. It turns out the planet is actually some kind of heaven where everyone spends eternity in their favorite memory, whatever that memory is. The day they won a beauty pageant, the day they became mayor, the day they fished their limit, or what have you.

唯一的陷阱是他们都还是死了，整个场景 frozen 得像某种立体模型，像动物标本展示，或者人类历史博物馆里的穴居人场景。你要把它拍成电影？不，老兄。他们不会拍这个的。嗯，我相信你能行的。

The only catch is they're all still dead and the whole scene is frozen like some kind of diorama, like a taxidermy display, or like one of those caveman scenes at a human history museum. You're gonna make a movie of it? No, man. They wouldn't make a movie of it. Well, I'm sure you could.

不，我不这么认为，我说。我不会跑去好莱坞试图卖给他们一个老掉牙的《阴阳魔界》故事，即使全部重写过了。好莱坞。是啊。

No. I don't think so, I say. I'm not gonna show up in Hollywood and try to sell them an old Twilight Zone, even if it is all rewritten. Hollywood. Yeah.

你要去好莱坞？对。大 J 微微皱了下眉。他喝了口咖啡，我也喝了。咖啡是冷的。

You're going to Hollywood? Yeah. Big J frowns a little. He takes a sip of his coffee and I do too. It's cold.

他朝咖啡机示意。我把杯子推给他。他起身把两杯都加热了一下。坐回座位时，他啜了一口热好的咖啡。这样好多了。

He gestures to the coffee maker. I push my cup over to him. He gets up and warms both up. He takes a sip of the warmed up coffee as he's sitting back down. That's better.

我也喝了一口我的。大J说，那么好莱坞，你什么时候出发？明天，我说。是珍妮特做的决定，所以我就去了。这也不是真的。

I sip mine too. Big J says, so Hollywood, when you taken off? Tomorrow, I say. Janet made the decision, so I'm going to. This also is not true.

确实是她先提的，但申请那边学校的人是我。找住处的人也是我。这既是她的主意，也是我的。我说，你知道，弗吉尼亚对我从来就不太友好。当然，在场的各位除外。

It is true that she mentioned it first, but I'm the one who applied to schools out there. I'm the one who found a place to live. It's as much me as her. I say, you know, Virginia has never been particularly good to me. Present company excluded, of course.

是啊，当然。他说。然后，我的意思是，我确实理解。我知道你从未真正适应这种生活。

Yeah. Sure. He says. And then, I mean, I do understand. I know you never really took to this life.

他挥了挥手。不，我没有。嗯，洛杉矶会像回家一样，他说，指的是我出生在加州，洛杉矶外围一点的地方。我们总是直接说我是洛杉矶人。是的。

He waves a hand around. No, I haven't. Well, LA will be like a homecoming, he says, referring to how I was born in California, a ways outside Los Angeles. We'd always just said I was from LA. Yeah.

算是吧。我说，你知道，我在这里住的时间已经是那里的两倍了。大J说，没错。但弗吉尼亚对我来说始终有点陌生。我想我才是那个外来者，像个访客，就像我故事里的宇航员。

Sort of. I say, you know, I've lived here now twice as long as I'd lived there. Big J says, true. Virginia always stayed kind of foreign to me though. I guess I'm the foreign one like a visitor, like the astronaut from my story.

嗯，它并不适合所有人。是啊。不，我想不是。是的。不过嘛，好莱坞，大J说，我能想象你们俩都适合，演艺圈。

Well, it doesn't suit everyone. Yeah. No, I guess not. Yeah. But well, Hollywood, Big J says, I can see that for you both, show business.

是的，当然。我说，是的，当然。然后我试着解释我为什么来这里。尽管大J没问，我还是为这么晚不请自来道歉。我告诉他我昨晚在外面，算是个告别派对。

Yeah, sure. I say, yeah, sure. Then I try to explain why I'm here. Even though big J isn't asking, I apologize for coming so late unannounced. I tell him how I'd been out late, a kinda goodbye party.

然后我又为没邀请他参加派对道歉。接着我又为这么晚过来道歉。我不知道我怎么了，我说。你随时都欢迎来这里，孩子。我哪儿也不去。

Then I apologize again for not inviting him to the party. Then I apologize again for coming over so late. I don't know what's wrong with me, I say. You're always welcome here, kid. I ain't got nowhere to be.

你需要现金吗？他说。不，不，我说。不，先生，我不需要。为了你的旅行。

Do you need cash? He says. No, no, I say. No, sir, I do not. For your trip.

不，先生。我说。然后正好相反，大J。我想还你那次我没去捕蟹时拿的钱。他说，靠，孩子。

No, sir. I say. And then it's the opposite, Big J. I wanna pay you back for that money I took from the crabbing I didn't do. He says, shit, kid.

我不需要你的钱。那是你的钱。那是借款。我只是来还钱的。他说，不，这是给你的。

I don't need your money. It's your money. It was a loan. I'm just here to pay it back. He says, no, this is for you.

他递过来一叠100美元钞票，说就当是提前给你的结婚礼金。我把钱推回给他说，你在干什么？我拿出我的小包，告诉他我才是来给他钱的人。我拿出那400美元，一叠20元钞票，放在桌上推向他。我很感激你，他说，但你不需要担心这个。

He hands over a stack of $100 bills saying consider it in advance for your wedding. I push the money back to him and say, what are you doing? I take out my satchel and tell him I'm the one here to give him money. I take out the $400 a stack of twenties, and I put it on the table and push it towards him. I appreciate you, he says, but you don't need to worry about this.

我从来没指望拿回这笔钱，而且我要去的地方，也用不着它。你什么意思，你要去哪里？没什么，他说。忘了我说的吧。你要去哪里，大J？

I never expected this money back and where I'm going, I'm not gonna need it. What do you mean where you're going? It's nothing, he says. Forget what I said. Where are you going, Big J?

大J没有回答。我又问了一遍，他只是不停地耸肩，好像说错了话似的。我从车里、从椅子上站起来。我拿起两个咖啡杯，现在都空了，然后走到咖啡机旁。大J说，都喝完了，但如果你想再煮一壶，你知道咖啡在哪。

Big J doesn't answer. I ask again and he just keeps shrugging as if he'd misspoke. I get up out of my car, my chair. I pick up both coffee mugs, now both empty and go over to the coffee maker. Big J says, it's all drank, but you know where it's at if you wanna brew another pot.

我就说到这里。谢谢大家。

I'm gonna stop there. Thank you guys.

我？好的。那么，我们正处在难以想象的时代，我想我们很多人都在花大量时间思考，当各种危机袭来时我们该怎么办，因为它们每天都在向我们袭来。《光荣男孩》，一个关于家庭被难以想象的事件撕裂的故事。

Me? Yeah. Okay. Alright, so we're in unthinkable times and I think a lot of us are spending a lot of time trying to figure out what we do when various crises come at us because they're coming at us every day. Glorious Boys, a story about a family that is torn apart by the unthinkable.

1942年，他们住在英属印度一个叫安达曼群岛的岛屿上，当时日本人来了。安达曼群岛是日本占领领土的最西端。在这个家庭撤离的那天，母亲登上了离开的船，而她的丈夫、四岁的小儿子以及照顾这个四岁儿子的女孩被留了下来。所以她现在在加尔各答，而日本入侵安达曼群岛刚刚发生，她正是在这时得知消息的。她在一家酒店里。

1942, they were living in British India in an island called the Andaman Islands when the Japanese arrived. And, the Andaman Islands were the furthest west that the Japanese occupied territory. And this family, on the day of evacuation, the mother gets on the ship that gets out and her husband and little four year old son and the girl that was taking care of the four year old son are left behind. So she is now in Calcutta and the Japanese invasion in the Andaman Islands has just happened and this is when she learns about it. She's in a hotel.

她一走到楼梯顶，就知道了。声音从大厅里反弹上来。那些该死的混蛋。下一个就是我们了，你知道的。一枪未发就放弃了。

As soon as she reaches the top of the stairs, she knows. The voices ricochet up from the lobby. The bloody fucks. We're next, you know. Gave it up without a shot.

现在我们和他们之间只有海水了。然后，我们对……说什么呢？在楼梯平台的镜子里，一双戴眼镜的眼睛抬起来，与克莱尔自己破碎的目光相撞。但是，楼梯间正在变白。她抓住栏杆，滑倒在地。血液在她耳中轰鸣，以至于她再也听不到楼下士兵的声音了。

Nothing but water between us and them now. And then, what do we say to In the mirror on the landing, a pair of bespectacled eyes turns up and collides with Claire's own shattered gaze. But, the stairwell is going white. She clutches the balustrade, slides to the floor. Her blood pounds so loud in her ears that she can no longer hear the soldiers downstairs.

当他们爬上她所在的楼层时，她示意他们离开。大厅在旋转，领带和家伙们的脸像闪光灯一样爆开，但她让自己站起来，不知怎么地下了楼。门厅突然死寂。他们让她坐下，然后一切都徒劳了。她已经听到了所有需要知道的事情。

When they climb to her age, she motions them away. The lobby spinning, ties and chaps faces popping like flash bulbs, but she makes herself stand and somehow descends. The foyer falls dead. They make her sit down and then it's all for nothing. Has heard everything there is to know.

收音机里传来一则简讯。安达曼群岛遭突袭占领，布莱尔港的英国当局未作抵抗便投降了。谢普，她的丈夫，还有泰，她的小男孩。谢普和泰。

A single bulletin on the radio. The Andaman Islands taken, sneak attack. The British authorities in Port Blair surrendered without defense. Shep, her husband, and Ty, her little boy. Shep and Ty.

谢普和泰。他们的名字像咒语般重复着，既让她充满思念又让她恐惧不已。前台电话骤响，听筒被塞到她手中。朋友罗杰在另一端说：我正在尽力打探所有消息，坚持住。

Shep and Ty. Their names repeat like a mantra, filling her simultaneously with longing and with terror. The phone on the front desk erupts and a receiver is thrust into her hands. Her friend Roger on the other end, I'm trying to find out everything I can. Hold tight.

薇薇安马上就到。他察觉到她的沉默。克莱尔，他说，日本受日内瓦公约约束必须保护平民，让孩子与家人团聚——她无声地挂断电话。周围环境逐渐清晰，但同住者们脸上关切与揣测的面具让她感觉自己正在瓦解。谢普和泰。

Vivian will be there in a minute. He hears her silence. Claire, he says, the Japanese are bound by the Geneva Convention to protect civilians and keep children with their families and She hangs up without speaking. Her surroundings have straightened, but the masks of concern and speculation on the faces of her fellow borders make her feel as if she's disintegrating. Shep and tie.

她穿过门廊，经过花园走出前院来到萨特街，接着是免费学校，继续前行。没戴帽子，没拿阳伞，没带钱包，不知去往何处为何而去，只知道必须移动。酒店外，男女老少进行着日常晨间活动。她家人的命运，与他们无关。可每个印度小男孩都活脱脱是泰的翻版。

She walks through the door and across the garden out the forecourt to Sutter Street, then free school and keeps going. No hat, no parasol, no purse, no idea where or why, only that she must move. Outside the hotel, men and women and children go about their mornings. The fate of her family, nothing to them. And yet, every small Indian boy appears a dead ringer for Ty.

每个细心的大姐姐都像照顾他的妮拉，每个高瘦的英国男人都像谢普。他们蹒跚经过商店，拉着手推车，蹲在人行道的柴床旁。穿着卡其色、白色和淡蓝色制服，提着水桶，相互叫喊，哭泣。克莱尔保持静止任由幻觉翻涌，只允许双腿移动。

Every attentive big sister, Nyla, the girl who takes care of him. Every tall bony Englishman, Shep. They trudge past shops, pull hand carts, squat beside sidewalk, charpoys. They wear khaki, white and pale blue uniforms, carry buckets, scream at each other, weep. Claire holds herself very still as the hallucinations well, permitting only her legs to move.

此刻，幽灵们站在露台檐下或门框之中，常在远处挥手，却总是背对着她。女士，一位戴深红色头巾穿白色外套的络腮胡男子走近。需要帮助吗？拜托。她双臂疼痛，双眼悸动，无法呼吸。

Now, the specters stand in the sleeve of a terrace or the frame of a doorway, often the distance waving, but always all of them present their backs to her. Madam, a bearded man in a maroon turban and white jacket approaches. May I help? Please. Her arms ache, her eyes throb, she can't breathe.

这位善心人扶住她的手肘稳住她，触碰止住了坠落感。她环顾四周。学院街，校园大门。印度学生们仰头对她欢笑。但并非所有人都是学生。

The Samaritan takes her elbow to steady her and his touch halts the falling sensation. She looks around. College Street, a campus gate. Indian students smile up at her laughing. These are not all students though.

病人们也躺在草地上。一个户外的候诊室里挤满了死寂的婴儿、哀嚎的母亲、眼神空洞的男人和瘦弱的男孩，他们的脸庞被痛苦、疯狂和失去所摧残。年轻的锡克教徒等待着。你是医生吗？她问他。

Patients also lie on the grass. An outdoor waiting room filled with deathly still infants, keening mothers, hollow eyed men and rickety boys, faces ravaged by pain and madness and loss. The young Sikh waits. Are you a doctor? She asks him.

还不是，女士。只是个实习生。你生病了吗？她忽略了这个问题。但你在帮助他们。

Not yet, madam. Only an intern. Are you ill? She ignores the question. But you help them.

她指了指这些病人，然后不知为何改变了问题。医生们，我协助。一丝困惑笼罩了他的关切。是的。是的。

She gestures at this patient's then without knowing why redirects her question. The the doctors, I assist. A look of bewilderment clouds his concern. Yes. Yeah.

是的。就是这样。你协助，这让事情更容易承受。她瞥了一眼等待的人们。那个男人，清澈的黑眼睛，整齐卷起并收好的胡须，带着一丝豆蔻和丁香的香气，不确定地点了点头。

Yes. That's it. You assist, and that makes it easier to bear. She glances at the people waiting. The man, clear dark eyes, neatly rolled and tucked beard, a whiff of cardamom and clove, nods uncertainly.

人尽其所能。人尽其所能，她重复道。然后她抬起脸，行了个额手礼。谢谢你，医生。谢谢你。

One does what one can. One does what one can, she repeats. Then she lifts her face and salaams. Thank you, doctor. Thank you.

我要读一些未发表的作品，是我现在正在写的东西。这是我2011年到2012年间记的日记。这是我，在去边境，美墨边境旅行后写下的。这次旅行是由亚裔美国人作家工作坊赞助的。所以，这里是一群亚裔美国作家，我们是穿越边境的人们的盟友。

I'm going to read from unpublished work, something that I'm working on now. This is a diary that I kept in the 2011 to the 2012. This is a, what I wrote after a trip to the border, to the Mexican USA border. And, this trip was sponsored by the Asian American Writers Workshop. And so, here are Asian American writers and we are allies of the people crossing the border.

在这次亲眼所见的旅程中，我们参观了停尸房和避难所。我们见到了边境官员，政府官员，在边境的两边。我们也在检查站被拦下。在我们这边的边境内陆有检查站，不在边境线上，而是在我们接近边境时。然后我们也到了围栏那里，这是他们当时的叫法。

On this eyewitness journey, we visited the morgue and we visited refugios. We were we were at the border officials, government officials, it on both sides of the border. We were also stopped at checkpoints. There are checkpoints on our side of the border, inland, not at the border, but as we approached the border. Then we were also at the fence, which is what they called it at the time.

它当时不叫墙，而是叫围栏。而且，它不只是一道墙或一道围栏，而是有多层围栏，就像你必须穿过的迷宫一样。有三四层那样的围栏，沿着边境线都是如此。

The it was not called the wall. It was called the fence. And, it's it's not just one wall and not just one fence. There are layers of fencing and so, it's like a maze that you would have to go through. Three or four layers the fence like that and like that all along.

我将为你读一段易于理解的场景——我并非指理解它容易。这是边境上秩序最井然的地方之一，而且是在法庭上。此时，法庭正在进行简化程序，他们的意思是我们将每小时驱逐70人。

I'm going to read to you one of the easy to understand scenes. I I don't mean to understand it. This is one of the most orderly places at the border, and this is at a court. At this time, the the court is is doing streamlining. And what they mean is that we're gonna deport 70 people an hour.

大约10名男子排成一列蹒跚而入。他们手脚戴着镣铐，耳朵里塞着翻译耳机，大多是矮个子、棕色皮肤、黑发、结实、营养良好的男子。一位坐在栏杆外侧、看似拉丁裔的男子转过身看着我们，看着我。我点头后移开视线，但瞥见他回点了头。有三四位公设辩护律师站在戴镣铐的男子身后。

A row of about 10 men shuffled in. They were shackled hands and feet, earbuds for hearing translators, mostly short men, brown skin, black hair, sturdy, well fed. A Latino looking man seated on the outside of the railing turned around and looked at us, looked at me. I nodded and looked away, but caught his nod back. There were three or four lawyers, public defenders standing behind the shackled men.

律师会取下耳机，私下对一名男子耳语。法官是一位漂亮的白人金发女性，她问了一系列问题。“是”是正确答案，法庭建议回答“是”。我记得其中三个问题。

A lawyer would remove an earbud and talk privately into a man's ear. The judge, who was a pretty Caucasian blonde woman, asked a series of questions. Yes is the correct answer. The court recommends yes. I remember three of the questions.

你是否是美国的外国人？C，是。C，C，是。十个C和是。对于拘留105天并抵扣已服刑期，你是否同意放弃陪审团审判的权利？

Are you an alien alien to United States Of America? C, yes. C, c, yes. 10 c's and yeses. For detention of one hundred and five days with credit for time served, do you agree to waive the right to a trial by jury?

是。C。是否没有人强迫你认罪或向你做出任何承诺，除了我们在法庭上讨论的内容？C，是。我的天真深不见底，我惊骇地发现权利就像游戏筹码。

Yes. C. Has no one forced you to plead guilty or made any promises to you other than what we've talked about here in this court? C, yes, my naivete is bottomless. I'm aghast that rights are like gaming chips.

你被给予这么多筹码——时间、积分、陪审团审判——你可以交易它们，并且你发誓没有受到胁迫或压力来遵守这些规则。那群戴镣铐的男子蹒跚而出，新的一群蹒跚而入。但这次有所不同：一名男子对放弃陪审团审判回答了“不”。法官再次问他这个问题，并询问他是否理解。

You've given you're given so many chips, time, credits, jury trial, and you can trade them, and you swear that you were not coerced or pressured to play by these rules. The group of shackled men shuffled out and a new group shuffled in. But this time, there was a difference. A man answered no to waiving trial by jury. The judge asked him the question again and asked if he understood it.

一名律师取下那人的耳机并对他说话。法官正在给他一个改变主意的机会。他再次说道，不。法庭完成了简化程序。走出法庭时，许多男子仍将头转向我们这些旁观者。

A lawyer took out the man's earbud and spoke to him. The judge was giving him a chance to change his mind. He said again, no. The court finished the streamlining. Shuffling out of the courtroom, many of the men kept their heads turned toward us, the spectators.

我感觉到他们的眼神在说救命。接下来，我们去了一个类似圆形剧场的房间，就像演讲厅教室一样。一名法官在前方的桌子后发言。像我们遇到的每一位公职人员一样，他称赞该州对非法移民的待遇是人道的。简化行动尽可能人道。

I felt their eyes saying help. Next, we went to an amphitheater like room, like like a lecture hall classroom. A judge spoke from a table in front. Like every public official we met, he commended the state's treatment of illegal immigrants as humane. Operation Streamline is as humane as possible.

在边境抓获的1000人中，只有七人受审并被监禁。其余人被遣返。带有孩子的人被遣返。被捕者会得到墨西哥领事馆的探视和建议。法官非常疲惫，是个身材魁梧、咳嗽不止的男人。

Out of 1,000 people caught at the border, only seven are put on trial and imprisoned. The rest are turned back. People with children are turned back. Those arrested are seen by the Mexican consulate and given advice. The judge was very tired, a large heavy coughing man.

他拿着一支看起来像未点燃的塑料香烟，不时放进嘴里又取出。另一只手打开火柴盒，但他没有点燃。厄尔说，他快死了。杰西卡·哈格多恩说，他很有莎士比亚风格。他很悲剧。

He held what looked like a plastic unlit cigarette that he put in his mouth and take out again. His other hand opened a matchbook, but he did not light up. Earl said, he's going to die soon. Jessica Hagedorn said, he's Shakespearean. He's tragic.

我喜欢他。法官忍受了我们小组对他的质疑。一位激进的拉丁裔男士问这位墨西哥裔美国法官是否在违背自己，背叛自己和同胞。法官讲述了他的故事，从他祖父移民开始。他的家族很幸运。

I like him. The judge suffered our group's questioning of him. One of the radical Latino guys asked whether the judge, a Mexican American, was going against himself, betraying yourself and his own people. The judge gave his story beginning with his grandfather's immigration. His family was fortunate.

祖父母、父母、他自己，都很幸运。他的祖父幸运地在越境更容易的时候到来。家族赚了钱，接受了教育，在战争中服役。他自己参加过越战。他曾是一名公设辩护人。

Grandparents, parents, himself, all fortunate. His grandfather fortunate to have come when the crossing was easier. The family made money, got educations, served in wars. He himself in Vietnam. He'd been a public defender.

他说，不是墨西哥裔美国人。不是这个美国人，那个美国人，而是美国人。他从疲惫中振作起来，展现出雄辩的庭审律师风采，几乎不再咳嗽。坐在我旁边的特朱·科尔恭敬地说。谢谢您与我们交谈。

Not Mexican American, he said. Not this American, that American, but American. He heaved himself up from weariness to the eloquence of the orating trial lawyer, barely coughing. Teju Cole, who was sitting next to me, spoke respectfully. Thank you for speaking with us.

我知道你本不必这么做，我们很感激。泰朱小心翼翼地询问法官每天目睹所有这些人类苦难时作何感受。法官没有表露他的情绪，只讲述了他如何处理这些情绪。他对苦难的接触有时间限制。我每天花26分钟进行快速审理。

I know you don't have to do this, and we appreciate it. Carefully, Teju got around to asking how the judge feels seeing all this human suffering every day. The judge did not reveal his feelings, only told how he handles them. He has a time limit to his exposure to suffering. I spent twenty six minutes a day streamlining.

有人注意到其中一名被快速审理的男子头发里有草屑。他们是否因为从沙漠来到法庭而迷失方向且受伤？法官说，我不能批评一个人的仪容习惯，但他们并非直接从沙漠来到法庭。他们会接受医疗检查，会得到食物。

Someone observed that one of the streamlined men had grass in his hair. Are they disoriented and wounded coming out of the desert into court? The judge said, I can't criticize a man's grooming habits, but they do not come straight from the desert to the courtroom. They are checked medically. They get fed.

他们会获得水、睡觉的地方。他们的领事馆会与他们交谈。律师会与他们沟通。有翻译人员，在进入法庭前至少有两天的准备时间。杰西卡·哈格多恩询问了那个表示不认罪的男子。

They get water, a place to sleep. Their consulate speaks to them. The lawyers speak to them. There are translators, at least two days of preparation before they come into the courtroom. Jessica Hagedorn asked after the man who pleaded no.

他会怎么样？法官说，他基本上完蛋了。他把自己害了。他本可以在拘留营待105天就了事，现在却要面临两到五年的刑期。

What's going to happen to him? The judge said, he's basically screwed. He screwed himself. He could have gotten away with one hundred and five days in detention camp. Now he's going to get two to five years.

后来有人说道，拘留营，移民监狱。我甚至没有举手请求发言认可，就直接从房间后排大声发问：那陪审团审判呢？如果他被判无罪怎么办？

Somebody said later, detention camp, immigration prison. I didn't even raise my hand to be recognized to speak. I just spoke up loud from near the back of the room. What about the jury trial? What if he's found innocent?

你们就得放了他。法官说他绝不可能被判无罪。一位法官竟然这么说。法官已经预判了，他早已认定那个人有罪。

You'd have to let him go. The judge said there's no way he will be found innocent. A judge said that. The judge prejudged. He already knows the man is guilty.

他将被判两到五年。他耐心地教育我们，回顾了整个流程：边境巡逻队抓获一群移民并进行分类。带孩子的，你们回去；无证入境被发现的，你们上法庭。

He will get two to five. Patiently educating us, he reviewed the process. The border patrol picks up a group of immigrants and sorts them out. You with the kids, you go back. You who've been seen entering the country without documents, you go to court.

在法庭上，你被提供了一份认罪协议。你可以对一项轻罪认罪，比如没有证件这种小事。而那个不认罪的人将被指控犯有重罪——非法移民。他绝不可能被判无罪，因为边境巡逻队亲眼目睹他实施了那项罪行。

At court, you're offered a plea bargain. You can plead guilty to a misdemeanor, a small thing, not having papers. That man who pleaded no will be charged with a felony, illegal immigration. No way will he be found innocent. The border patrol witnessed him committing that crime.

从他跨过边境的那一刻起，他就触犯了法律。活动人士创造了'犯罪移民'这个词，将越境行为刑事化。所以法官反问：'他为什么不认罪？他在抱希望。'

He broke the law the moment he stepped across the border. Crim migration, say the activist, who made up a word for criminalizing criminalizing the attempt to cross the border. So why did he plead no? Said the judge rhetorically. He's hoping.

希望是最后破灭的东西。是的，我知道那个人在希望什么。他将有12名男女组成的陪审团听取他的陈述，他能说的不止是'是'或'否'。

Hope is the last to die. Yes. I know what that man was hoping. He will have 12 men and women hearing him out. He can have more to say than yes or no.

他将有机会讲述完整的故事：妻子离世、父亲病重、孩子挨饿。这些遭遇会让倾听者心软，从而帮助他。而被快速处理的人则被关押在CCA（美国矫正公司）运营的私营监狱里。我从电影《见证人》中见过那些监狱的样子。

He'll get to tell his whole story. His wife gone, his father ill, his children hungry. The list the listener's heart will melt, and they'll help him. The streamlined people are locked up in private prisons run by CAA, Corrections Corporation of America. I know what those jails look like from the movie, The Witness.

要留意那些混杂在商店、办公室和仓储设施中的匿名、无标识、不起眼的建筑——它们就是监狱。我们继续质疑法官的判决、法律适用和命令执行。为什么他不能成为激进派法官？他三次指着我们重申：

Be on the lookout for anonymous, unmarked, nondescript buildings camouflaged among shops, offices, storage facilities. They are jails. We kept up our questioning of the judge, his sentencing, his applying the law, his following orders. Why can't he be an activist judge? Thrice, he pointed at us and reiterated.

'如果你不满意，就去改变它。这取决于你们。'他不断解释自己并不制定法律，'我们（民众）才制定法律。我不能放走一个却不放走所有人。'

If you don't like it, you change it. It's up to you. He kept explaining he that he doesn't make the law. We do. I can't let one go and not let all go.

你们可能不信，但我已经是最宽容的法官了。有人问及NAFTA是否让情况更糟，法官表示：'不，NAFTA没有影响。当我们想要某样东西时，边境通行是多么开放、自由和高效。'

You may not believe it, but I am the easiest judge. Somebody asked about NAFTA, whether it made things worse. The judge said, no. NAFTA makes no difference. How open and free and efficient the crossing is, said the judge, when we want something.

我们运输野生火鸡、灰狼、金钱、金钱、西红柿和蔬菜。他夹着香烟的手来回摆动，表示许多事物和生物来来往往，但我们却找不到运送人的方法。我们想要灰狼。我们运输灰狼。我们无法运输人。

We transport wild turkeys and gray wolves and money and money and tomatoes and vegetables. His cigarette hand moved back and forth indicating many things and creatures passing back and forth, but we can't find a way to transport people. We want gray wolves. We transport gray wolves. We can't transport people.

法官对每一个'但是'都有答案，对每件事都有答案，对每一个论点都有答案，所有漏洞都被堵上了。所以，当我准备前往边境时，我在想我能做什么？我能给这些人带来什么？然后，我听到了一个故事，听说当人们试图从墨西哥越境进入美国时，他们会穿越沙漠，有时会渡过河流。当情况变得非常糟糕，当他们处于极度困境时，会有一个人出现在他们面前。

The judge had an answer for every but, an answer for everything, for every argument, all loopholes sewn up. So, as I prepared to go to the border, I thought about what can I do? What can I bring to these people? And so, I heard a story and I heard that when people are trying to cross the border from Mexico into The US, they go through desert and sometimes they go across the river. And when things get really bad, when they are in extremis, there is a man that appears to them.

这个人对他们说他会提供帮助。他给他们水。他给他们食物。他还告诉他们该走哪条路，并给他们一些关于到达美国后去哪里的建议。然后他说，当你的生活顺利，当你实现了你想要的目标，当你返回墨西哥时，去圣安娜德瓜达卢佩教堂，在那里，表示感谢并告诉他们你所经历的一切。

And this man says to them that he will help. He gives them water. He gives them food. And he also tells them what path to take and he gives them some ideas about where to go when they arrive in The US. And then he says, when when your life goes well and you have and you have accomplished what you want and and when you return to Mexico, go to the the Santa Ana de Guadalupe Church and there, give thanks and and tell them what has what you have been through.

好的。我听说有些人确实完成了那段旅程并返回，去了那个教堂。当他们到那里时，他们看到了那个帮助过他们的人的画像。他名叫托里比奥·罗莫，在教会与国家的战争期间被杀。那是在二十世纪二十年代。

Okay. So, I have heard that some people have actually made that journey and returned and went to that church. And when they went there, they saw a picture of that man that helped them. And, and he was, his name was Toribio Romo and was killed during a war between the church and the state. That was in the nineteen twenties.

现在，他是圣托里比奥·罗莫。所以，当我发现这一点后，我去了国际大道，去了一些天主教堂，找到了圣托里比奥·罗莫的圣卡。我还找到了一些带有这位圣人的徽章。我还听说托里比奥·罗莫的遗骨正在中央谷地巡游，并来到了我的家乡斯托克顿。于是，我收集了圣卡和徽章，把它们带到边境，分发给可能遇到的任何移民，并把它们留在避难所，供人们取用。

And, and he is now Saint Toribio Romo. So, when I found this out, I went to International Boulevard and I went to some Catholic churches and I found holy cards for Saint Toribio Romo. I also found some medals with that saint. I also heard that the bones of Toribio Romo were traveling through the Central Valley and they came to my hometown Stockton. And so, I collected holy cards and I collected medals and I took them to the border and I passed them out to any immigrants I might meet and I left them at the refugios for so for so people to pick up.

他们确实取走了，因为当我在镇上闲逛时，我看到我放置圣卡的地方已经空了。后来，我回家后，碰巧在CVS商店购物，你知道，就是买些我们在CVS买的东西。我发现了一支献给托里比奥·罗莫神父、圣托里比奥·罗莫的蜡烛。CVS商店在销售这些。你知道，这是个好消息。

And they did pick them up because when wandering around town, I I saw that where I had put the holy cards had disappeared. Then, when I got home, I happened to be shopping at the CVS store for, you know, things that we get at CVS store. And I found a candle to the father Terribio Romo, to Saint Terribio Romo. CVS store is selling these. You know, this is good news.

我们能得到CVS商店的支持，这难道不是非常好的消息吗？所以我想给你读一下祷文。哦，你知道，托里比奥·罗莫现在被称为移民的圣人，移民的守护圣徒。这是向移民守护圣徒的祈祷文。这被称为移民祈祷文。

Isn't that really great news that this that we are getting support from CVS stores? And so I want to read to you the prayer. Oh, you know, Toribio Romo is now called the saint of immigrants, the saint of immigration. And this is the prayer for to the saint of immigration. This is called prayer for the immigrant.

圣父啊，您派遣您的儿子在我们中间宣告天国，祂顺从您的旨意并完成您托付的使命，我们通过圣托里比奥·罗莫的转祷，请求您关怀和保护那些不得不离家的家人，因为外面的世界试图压倒他们，愿我们的家人保护他们远离一切邪恶，并让他们在信仰中保持坚定，以便能早日回到我们的家园，通过我们的主耶稣基督使灵魂和身体都得到加强。阿门。你知道这段祈祷中让我触动的是，他们在为那些离家的人祈求保护，并期盼他们归来的时刻。所以这段祈祷其实是在说他们会北上抢走我们的工作并且永远留下。他们只是...你知道，他们不应该仅仅被称为移民。

Holy father, you who sent your son to proclaim the kingdom of heaven among us, he who is obedient to your wishes and carries out the mission that you have entrusted, we ask through the intercession of Santa of Santo Toribio Romo for the caring and protecting of our family who have had to leave the house since the world outside looks to overcome them and our families protect them from all evil and that they remain firm in faith so they can soon return to our home, strengthened in the soul and body through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen. You know what strikes me in that prayer is they're praying for the protection of those leaving home and looking forward when to when they're coming back. So this prayer is a saying they're gonna come north and take our jobs and and stay forever. They're just oh, you know, they should not be just called immigrants.

他们应该被称为难民。我的意思是，我认识的每个移民都是作为难民来的，这包括我的父母。所以那些提供帮助的地方被称为避难所（refugios）。因此这段祈祷是为他们能来到这个救生艇获得一些帮助，然后带回给家乡的人们。好吧。

They should be called refugees. I mean, every immigrant I know came as a refugee, and that includes my parents. And so and and and those places that that are helping out are called refugios. So they so the prayer is for them to come to this lifeboat and get some help and then bring it back to to the people back home. Okay.

所以我有一根火柴。我们要点燃这个吗？在这个大厅里允许点火吗？

So You know, I have a match. Should we light this? If are we allowed to light in this in this hall?

我不知道。米歇尔，我们可以点这个吗？

I don't know. Michelle, can we light this?

我们可以吗，米歇尔，我们可以点蜡烛吗？好吧。是的。我们不一定非要...不，不用了。

Can we Michelle, can we light the candle? Okay. Yeah. We don't have to do. No, no.

我来提问。

I will questions.

好的。好的。是的，我们还有一些完全没看过的问题。所以是的，我

Okay. Okay. Yeah, well, we have questions that we haven't looked at at all. So yeah, I

读这些有点太快了。

can't read these a little too fast.

这些都是很好的问题，但这更多是时间问题。实际上，我认为这很棒，我们先进行这个，然后或许可以转向观众提问。孩子们在你们所有的书中都扮演着至关重要且充满活力的角色。可以说我多愁善感，但我相信孩子们是纯粹的天才。但随后学校介入，进行规训和惩罚，直到他们的创造能力被扼杀，使他们成为优秀、有用、有生产力的社会成员。

These are great questions, but it is it is more an issue of time. Actually, I I think this is a great we'll we'll do this, and then maybe we can turn to the audience. So children play a vital and vibrant role in all of your books. Call me sentimental, but I believe children are pure geniuses. But then school comes in to discipline and to punish until their creative capacity is smothered, making them good, functional, productive members of society.

然而在此之前，孩子们以天马行空的想象力和创造力玩耍。他们见证。但他们所看到的与我或任何其他成年人所看到的完全不同。他们以真实、智慧以及天真的纯真说话。有时，那种真实、智慧和天真的纯真也会切入残酷。

Before that though, children play with sprawling imagination and creativity. They witness. But what they see and what I or any other adult see are totally different things. They speak with truth and wisdom and naive innocence. Sometimes that truth and wisdom and naive innocence cuts into cruelty.

你是如何在你的小说中运用儿童的？你决定将一个角色设定为儿童而非成年人，其中的考量是什么？童年的经验不足为一个潜在角色提供了什么？你认为在当今的社会和地缘政治气候下，这一点是否正在改变？那个光辉的男孩。

How do you use children in your fiction? What goes into your decision to make a character a child as opposed to an adult? And what does the inexperience of childhood offer for a potential character? Do you see that changing in today's socio and geopolitical climate? The glorious boy.

是的，关于这个问题我有两点想法。其一与“调谐”（attunement）的重要性有关，这是父母与年幼孩子在最初阶段建立的联系。它是让孩子感到安全、与世界连接以及情感安全的部分原因。

Yeah, I think I have two thoughts on that. One has to do with the importance of attunement, which is the connection between parents and young children in the very beginning. It's part of what makes a child feel secure and connected to the world and emotionally secure.

而且，我

And, I

认为这种调谐在家庭中经常被打破，并且我认为我们今天看到的许多问题都可以追溯到很早以前的调谐问题，这不仅与父母的关系有关，还与境况、贫困、成瘾等许多我们在故事中写到的问题有关。所以我认为儿童如此重要的原因之一是，他们，你知道，童年时的经历会影响他们长大后成为什么样的人，以及我们拥有什么样的社会。至于写作，我认为我有时在作品中使用儿童的原因之一，我想皮特也能认同这一点，就是迈克尔·翁达杰所说的“孤儿状态”及其价值。从罗尔德·达尔到狄更斯，再到希腊人和罗马人，文学作品中如此频繁地描绘孤儿是有原因的。翁达杰在他的上一本书《战时灯火》中写道，孤儿状态对回忆录来说尤其重要。

think very often that attunement is broken in families and I think a lot of what we're seeing today is, can be traced back to problems with attunement very early on, having to do not just with the relationship with parents, but the circumstances, poverty, addiction, a lot of the issues that, you know, we write about in our stories. So I think that one of the reasons children are so important is that they, you know, what happens to them as a child affects who they grow up to be and what kind of a society we have. As far as writing, I think that one of the reasons that I sometimes use children in my work, and I think Pete can identify with this too, is what Michael Andocci calls the orphan state and the value of the orphan state. There's a reason that orphans are so often depicted in literature from Roald Dahl to Dickens to the Greeks and the Romans. Ondaci, in his last book, Warlight wrote, the orphan state is essential for memoir in particular.

所以，你身上缺失的是什么？那些你变得谨慎和犹豫的事情，几乎会不经意地来到你身边。那是一种孤儿的状态——独自面对世界，带着新鲜的意识、脆弱感和认知。我认为，那种既连接又疏离的孩子的双重性，对文学作家来说是一个极其强大的概念，因为我认为这正是我们世界的基础：我们是连接着的还是分离的？这影响着我们如何看待彼此、如何看待世界以及如何行事。这些是我对孩子们的一些思考。

So what is missing in you and the things that you have grown cautious and hesitant about will come almost casually toward you. It's that state of, that an orphan has of being alone in the world with fresh awareness and vulnerability and recognition. And I think that that, that duality of a child that's connected and a child that's disconnected is an incredibly powerful idea for literary writers to reckon with because I think that's, it's at the base of so much of our world is are we connected or are we disconnected? And it affects how we see each other and how we see the world and how we behave. That's a few of my thoughts about children.

我之前没有意识到文学中孤儿状态这个概念或这个想法，但它完全说得通。我敢肯定，它的下一个迭代就像是迪士尼电影，似乎总是有一个被孤立的嗯主角。我从未想过这个问题。比如，为什么我在我的故事中写了很多孩子？

I had not been aware of that concept or that that idea of the orphan state in literature, but it totally makes sense. I'm sure the addition of next iteration of that is, like, Disney films, which seem to always have an orphaned Mhmm. Protagonist. I had never thought about this question. Like, why do I write a lot of kids in my stories?

你的很多故事里都有他们。

You they're they're in a lot of your stories.

我最初的想法是，嗯，我写这些故事的时候，我生活中有孩子。所以我只是写了我生活中的人。但我认为，这实际上与文学创作的过程，特别是小说创作，有着非常核心的联系。还有这个孤儿状态的想法，这个关于天真或纯真在哪里破裂的想法？所以故事中总有一个转折点，角色要么面对他们的天真或无知，无论那是什么，改变他们的世界观并实现转变。

And I and I first thought was, well, I had kids in my life while I was writing them. So I just wrote about the people that were in my life. But I think there is something actually really core to the process of writing literature, writing fiction in particular. And this orphan state idea, this idea of, like, where does the break of innocence or naivete happen? So there's always some, like, breaking moment in a story where the character can either confront their innocence or ignorance, whatever that is, and change their worldview and become transformed.

或者他们可以加倍坚持他们旧的世界观，停留在无知/天真的状态。所以那个关键点对我来说是一个非常有趣的关键点，而且我认为在写关于孩子的故事时，这一点更加突出，非常明显，因为你可以理解一个天真的孩子获得认知的时刻。但我认为，我写的所有故事，以及可能大多数被创作和探索的故事，都包含这个概念。

Or they can double down on their old worldview and remain in ignorance slash innocence. So that that that crux is a very interesting crux for me both and I think with kids, it's with writing about kids, it's much more, like salient. It's very, very present because you can understand an innocent child with moment of awareness. But I think with all stories that I write and probably most stories that are written and explored, they have that concept in them.

我想也许和孩子有关，并且选择无知或选择天真是可以原谅的，对吧？而作为成年人，这就有点不那么容易被原谅了。是的。但是，我不确定。

I think maybe there's something about, like, children and it being forgivable, right, to to choose the ignorance or to choose innocence. Whereas as adults, it's a little less forgivable. Yeah. The the But I don't know.

作为读者，体验是不同的，对吧？你感觉我们…我们留下的东西是不同的。

The experience is different as a as a reader. Right? You you feel we have we're left with something different.

我刚刚成为祖母。因此我特别能感受到孩子们刚刚来到这个世界，一切对他们都是崭新的。我看到孩子们拥有如此多的能力和天赋，他们在尝试一切事物，实践各种艺术。他们唱歌跳舞，拿起任何乐器都会尝试。他们打鼓，尝试运动，只要你给他们颜料，他们就会画画和写字。

I just became a grandmother. And so I am so aware of the of the children having just come into the world and everything is new. And I see that a the children have so much ability and talent and they're experimenting with everything and they practice all the arts. They are singing and dancing and any instrument they pick up, they try it. They drum and and they and they try they try sports, and as soon as and if you give them paint, they are painting and they are writing.

一旦他们掌握语言，他们就开始写作，并且表达自己的想法。我不知道这种能力从何而来。哦，我的小孙子用婴儿的声音问：无穷大是哪个数字？我试着解释，说那是永远、永远、永远。

As soon as they get language, they are writing, And they're saying something. I don't know where this comes from. The Oh, my little grandson at the age of in a baby voice. What number is infinity? And, oh, well, I tried to explain, and I was saying, well, it it's forever and forever and forever.

然后他说：直到你死去。哇。然后我的孙女，她正在学习语言，已经学会阅读了。这里有一首小诗。

And then he said, Until you die. Wow. And then and then my granddaughter, she she's learning language. She's learned to read. And and and that and here's here's here's the a poem.

让我看看：女孩上大学获得知识，男孩去木星变得更愚蠢。

Let's see. Girls go to college and get knowledge. Boys go to Jupiter and get stupider.

然后

And

所以，我一直从事教育工作，从小学、初中、大学到研究生院，整个教育体系我都教过。我看到的是孩子们拥有很多天赋和创造力，但这种能力却变得越来越狭窄。举个例子，我认识一个生物学研究生，他说：我想学习科学，现在却成了瓦胡岛海岸某一种虾的专家。

so okay, I have been a teacher all the way from I have from I've been I have taught grammar school, middle school, college, graduate school. I've done the whole thing. And what I have seen is that the children have lots of talent, lots of creativity, and it gets narrower and narrower and narrower, and okay, here's an example. I know a graduate student in biology. He said, I wanted to learn science, and now I'm an expert on one shrimp off the coast of Oahu.

那么我们的创造力发生了什么？我们变得专业化，因为必须如此，于是我们舍弃了其他一切。我刚读到关于创造者的文章，说我们保持童真。我想，这就是秘诀吧。

So so what happens to us, our creativity, we become specialized because we have to and we cut out everything else. So I just read something about create people who create. They said we we we stay childish. So, I guess that's the secret.

其实挺好的。我们准备了这些很棒的问题。我想跳过我的阅读部分，我们将以一个问题结束，可以吗？好的。这个问题来自观众。

Actually okay. So we have we have these great questions. I think I'm gonna skip my reading, and I'm gonna we're gonna end on one question, if that's okay. Okay. So this comes from the audience.

在这个注意力持续时间缩短、人们花更少时间阅读长篇散文的世界里，作为作者，您对未来读者有什么期望？需要我再读一遍吗？

In this world of shortening attention spans and less time spent reading long form prose, what are your hopes as an author for future readers? Shall I read it again?

是的。

Yeah.

好的。实际上我本来就打算以一个关于希望的问题结束。那么，在这个注意力持续时间缩短、人们花更少时间阅读长篇散文的世界里，作为作者，您对未来读者有什么期望？这是个很好的问题。

Okay. So in this, I actually was going to end it with a question on hope. So, in this world of shortening attention spans and less time spent reading long form prose, what are your hopes as an author for future readers? It's a great question.

这确实是个很好的问题。我想快速插一句，因为我有个...请讲。也许可以给个简单的回答。我认为这有点像对什么是好读物的民主化。所以我喜欢文学小说这类作品。

It's a really good question. I'm just gonna jump in real quick because I have a Please. Maybe a a simple answer to it. I think it's kind of like a democratization of what is good to read. And so I love, like, literary fiction.

那是我喜欢消费的内容。但是，同人小说可能是很多人能够阅读并投入的东西。这是一个他们已经了解的世界，可以直接融入其中。完全没有所谓的门槛限制，就是直接发布出来。

That's, like, what I love to consume. But, you know, fan fiction is maybe, like, something that a lot of people can read and get into. They it's a world they already understand and they can just tap into it. There is no, like, gatekeeping at all. It's just posted.

所以这大概就是我的答案。就像是接受现在发布出来的各种广泛的书面内容。

So I think that's kind of my answer. It's like accepting the whole wide breadth of, written stuff that's being put out there.

我只是希望它保持人性。我的意思是，我担心的是AI写作如此之多，以至于人们会习惯阅读AI输出的内容，并且无法区分AI生成和人类生成的作品。这是我对未来最大的担忧。与其说是注意力持续时间和长度的问题，不如说是作品质量和深度的问题。我不知道，你知道，我们可以继续尽我们所能写出最好的作品，继续努力激发热情、兴趣和与读者之间的联系，但有时确实感觉有一股完全超出我们控制的海啸即将来临。

I just hope it remains human. Mean, my fear is with AI writing so much that people will get used to reading what AI puts out and they will not know the difference between AI generated and human generated. That's my big fear in terms of what's out. It's less about the attention span and the length and more about the quality of the work and the depth of the work. And I don't know, you know, we can keep writing the best that we can and we can keep, you know, trying to crank up enthusiasm and interest and connection with the readers that we can reach, but it does sometimes feel like there's just a tsunami coming that is completely out of our control.

但你知道，我认为如果你阅读ChatGPT写的东西，它和在座任何人写的都相当不同。

But you know, I think that if you read things that ChatGPT writes, right, it's quite different than what anyone on this stage writes.

现在是。现在是。我说的是下周、下个月、明年。这也许——

It is now. It is now. I'm talking about next week, next month, next year. This maybe the

希望它能保持那样，我们的艺术能继续关注句子、关注人类情感并触及一些特别的东西。

hope is that it remains that way and that our art can remain something that cares about the sentence and cares about human emotion and touches something special.

你知道，我不确定注意力持续时间是否在变短。我注意到，嗯，再次，我的孙子孙女们现在开始阅读，他们在看厚厚的书。我看到他们能坐在那里很长时间。关于屏幕时间有很多争论，父母们非常努力地限制他们的屏幕时间。我孙子刚对我说，我会想念你的，因为你让我看电视。

You know, I don't know that attention span is getting shorter. I notice that, well, again, having my grandchildren beginning to read now, they they're looking at thick books. They are the the I I see them sit there for a long time. There is a there's a lot of argument about screen time, and the parents work very hard to limit their screen time. And my grandson just said to me, I'm going to miss you because you let me watch television.

所以，我看到他看电视，但他也读书。我认为，作为对短注意力持续时间或许多视觉内容吸引我们注意力的反应，注意到现在图像小说很流行。它们正在赢得普利策奖。是的。

And and so but I see that he watches television, but he also reads books. And I think in in reaction to short attention span or what we or or to a lot of visual the visual taking our attention. Notice that graphic novels are big right now. They are winning Pulitzer Prizes. Are.

它们是伟大的文学作品。对于那些我们一时想不出词语的图像或想法、愿景，它们画出一幅画。正是这种视觉与文学的融合，产生了伟大的作品。另一件事是，注意到诗歌非常短。

And they are great literary work. And for those for images or ideas, visions that we can't think of the words for right away, they draw a picture. And and just that melding of of of the visual and the and the literary. It's it's produced great work. Another thing, notice that poems are very short.

最近我写了很多俳句。实际上，我们很快就要举办一个俳句派对，就在下次PMLA会议上。十七个音节。而且，我一直在向大家，包括我的学生，介绍伟大的中国诗歌传统。

And, lately, I've been doing a lot of haiku. In fact, we're having a haiku party pretty soon. Just, it's coming at the next PMLA meeting. And 17 syllables. And also, I've been telling everybody, including my students, about great Chinese traditions.

有四言诗、七言诗、五言诗。所以我们已经有了适合短注意力跨度的文学作品。俳句。

There's such a thing as the four word poem. There's seven word poems. There's five word poems. And so we've we've already we've got the literature to go with short attention spans. Haiku.

哦，哦，打火机。好的。那么，我想就此打住，你可以点燃它了。感谢大家的到来。

Oh, oh, the lighter. Yes. Okay. Well, I I think on on that note, you know, you can light it. And thank you all for coming.

谢谢Commonwealth。也感谢各位小组成员。

Thank you, Commonwealth. And thank you, panel.