本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
他们说，我们可以在餐桌旁一起写下这些片段。
They say fragments we can write together at the dinner table.
对我来说，在研究这本书时，我非常享受他们如此融合的方式。
And for me, that is something that I thoroughly enjoyed when I was researching this book, the way they came together.
所以他们坐在一起。
So they sit together.
他们一起工作。
They work together.
他们一起吃饭。
They eat together.
他们一起聚会。
They party together.
他们一起相爱。
They love together.
他们一起做所有事情，但总是很吵闹。
They do everything together, but it's always noisy.
总是很吵。
It's always loud.
他们认为不必达成一致，因为没有什么比意见的单一化更枯燥了。
They agree that they never have to agree because they say there's nothing more dull than the uniformity of opinion.
他们将这种模式视为共同创作。
And they see this as communal working.
例如，诺瓦利斯说，我觉得在对话中思考得更好。
So Novalis, for example, says, I think better in dialogue.
我需要别人来激发我。
I need other people to electrify me.
他们给这种模式起了个名字，叫‘simphilosophy’（共同哲学）。
And they give it a name, then they call it simphilosophy.
于是他们在很多词前加上前缀‘sim’，即 s-y-m。
So they add the prefix sim, s y m, to a lot of words.
Simphilosophy（共同哲学）、Simpoetry（共同诗歌）。
Simphilosophy, Sim, poetry.
共同工作。
Sim, working.
一切都是‘共同’的，本质上意味着一起。
Everything is sim, and essentially means together.
他们相信，两个头脑结合在一起能创造出远超单一头脑的成果。
They believe that two minds put together can just create much more than one mind.
最终它彻底失败了，但这并不重要。
It goes horribly wrong in the end, but that doesn't matter.
有一段时间，它是有效的。
For a while, it worked.
几个世纪以来，欧洲中世纪的生活意味着一个由教会和王室决定和规范的世界。
For centuries, medieval life in Europe meant a world determined and prescribed by church and royalty.
社会结构很大程度上是金字塔形的，每个人都必须服从并适应顶层人物的体系。
The social sphere was very much a pyramid, and everybody had to answer to and fit within the schemes of those on top.
随后，凭借理性的翅膀，现代个体涌现出来，审视这些体系，并以巨大代价将它们替换为更能平等分配权力与权威的新体系。
And then on wings of reason, modern selves emerged to scrutinize these systems and at great cost, swap them for others that more evenly distribute power and authority.
宇宙力量预先决定了个人在超验秩序中的角色，但就在短短几十年的动荡中，哲学与政治开始颂扬自我决定与自由意志。
Cosmic forces preordained one's role within a transcendental order, but then across quick decades of upheaval, philosophy and politics started celebrating self determination and free will.
艺术与科学相互交融，蓬勃发展。
Art and science blossomed as they wove together.
一切都再也不同了。
Nothing was ever the same.
欢迎来到《复杂性》，圣塔菲研究所的官方播客。
Welcome to Complexity, the official podcast of the Santa Fe Institute.
我是您的主持人加菲尔德。
I'm your host, Garfield.
每隔一周，我们都会带您参与我们全球网络中严谨研究者的广泛对话，他们正在开发新的框架，以解释宇宙最深层的奥秘。
And every other week, we bring you with us for far ranging conversations with our worldwide network of rigorous researchers developing new frameworks to explain the deepest mysteries of the universe.
本周，我们邀请到重返节目的嘉宾、《纽约时报》畅销书作者、七本书的作者、圣塔菲研究所米勒学者安德烈亚·沃尔夫，聊聊她最新一部细致入微的长篇著作《卓越的叛逆者：第一批浪漫主义者与自我的发明》。
This week, we engage with returning guests, New York Times bestselling author of seven books and SFI Miller Scholar Andrea Wulf about her latest lovingly detailed long work, Magnificent Rebels, The First Romantics, and The Invention of the Self.
在本期节目中，我们将探讨18世纪源于德国耶拿的哲学、科学、文学与生活方式革命的成因。
In this episode, we explore the conditions for an eighteenth century revolution in philosophy, science, literature, and lifestyle springing from Jena, Germany.
仅仅几年间，歌德、谢林、施莱格尔、黑格尔和诺瓦利斯等历史性的杰出人物汇聚一堂，共同重塑了人类思想与行动的可能性。
Over just a few years, an extraordinary confluence of history making figures such as Goethe, Schelling, Schlegel, Hegel, and Novalis helped rewrite what was possible for human thought and action.
在政治动荡的背景下，这群才华横溢的朋友、敌人与恋人，重新定义了‘自我’的含义，以及现代自我如何与它所不是的一切建立关系，并启发了后来的英国和美国浪漫主义运动。
Amidst the landscape of political revolt, this braid of brilliant friends and enemies and lovers altered what it means to be a self and how the modern self relates to everything it isn't, inspiring later British and American romantic movements.
他们主张艺术与想象力，将科学的严谨融入艺术，并赋予艺术以理性，耶拿的‘思想叛逆者’们过着大胆而反叛的生活，回望之下，仿佛超前了两个世纪。
Arguing for art and the imagination and work of science and infusing art with reason, Jena's Rebels of the Mind lived bold, iconoclastic lives that seem two hundred years ahead in retrospect.
通过仔细审视耶拿和第一批浪漫主义者，我们能学到很多，甚至可能学会如何复制他们的伟大成就，并在社会动荡面前避免自我瓦解。
We stand to learn a great deal from a careful look at Jena and the first romantics, maybe even how to replicate their great successes and avoid their self implosion in the face of social turbulence.
如果您重视我们的研究与传播工作，请在您偏好的平台订阅《复杂性》播客。
If you value our research and communication efforts, please subscribe to Complexity Podcast wherever you prefer to listen.
请在苹果播客上为我们评分和评论，或考虑通过 santafe.edu/podcastgive 进行捐赠。
Rate and review us at Apple Podcasts and or consider making a donation at santafe.edu/podcastgive.
您还可以通过 santafe.edu/engage 找到更多与我们互动的方式。
You can find numerous other ways to engage with us at santafe.edu/engage.
特别是，您或许希望庆祝 Complexity Explorer 十周年免费在线课程，由 SFI 教授 Cris Moore 主讲的《复杂系统中的计算》课程将于3月28日开课。
In particular, you may wish to celebrate ten years of free online courses at Complexity Explorer with SFI professor Cris Moore's course, computation in complex systems, starting March 28.
更多内容请见节目笔记，感谢收听。
Learn more in the show notes, and thank you for listening.
好的。
Alright.
安德里亚·沃尔夫，很高兴您再次做客《复杂性播客》。
Andrea Wulf, it's a pleasure to have you back on Complexity Podcast.
谢谢你们邀请我。
Thank you for having me.
上次我们邀请您时，我们正在讨论您为亚历山大·冯·洪堡写的传记。
So when we had you last, we were talking about your biography of Alexander von Humboldt.
在那次对话的结尾，您提到您正在写一本新书，现在这本书已经出版了。
And you teased us at the very end of that conversation with the fact that you were writing a new book, and that book is out now.
这本书叫《卓越的叛逆者》，它像是一个前传，或者说是将视角拉远，审视那些启发了洪堡思想、为浪漫主义哲学革命奠定基础的德国哲学家群体。
It's Magnificent Rebels, and it is a kind of prequel or it's a zoom out to look at the entire context of German philosophers that inspired his work and set the stage for the the revolution of romantic philosophy.
您能否先为我们描绘一下当时这些人物以及他们相聚的城市的背景？之后我们可以深入细节。
Why don't you start, I guess, maybe just by setting the scene for us with these people and the city in which they met, and then we can dive into the details.
好的。
Okay.
所以，这本书讲的是一群哲学家、思想家、科学家和作家，他们在18世纪末聚集在德国一个名叫耶拿的小镇上，这个小镇位于柏林西南约150英里处。
So, basically, it's a book about a bunch of philosophers, thinkers, scientists, writers who came together at the end of the eighteenth century in a small German town called Jena, which was a town about a 150 miles Southwest of Berlin.
他们共同彻底改变了我们看待自身与世界的方式，因为他们把“自我”置于思考的中心。
And, together, they really changed the way we think about us and the world because they put the self at the center of their thinking.
一方面，这本书探讨了诸如现代自我起源这样的宏大哲学理念，但另一方面，它也像一部肥皂剧。
Now on the one hand, it's a book about big philosophical ideas such as the beginning of the modern self, but it's also a bit of a soap opera.
它关注这些思想家如何将自己的生活当作舞台或平台，去实践这种强大而独立的自我观念。
So it's looking at these thinkers, how they also use their own life as almost as a stage or a platform to try out these ideas of this kind of strong independent self.
也许因为你一开始提到了洪堡，那我也该跟你讲讲我是怎么开始写这本书的，因为这确实源于我对“自然的发明”的探索。
And maybe because you started also with Humboldt, maybe I should start telling you a little bit how I came to write this book because that really comes out of the invention of nature.
因为洪堡在18世纪90年代中期、前往南美洲之前，曾来到耶拿。
Because Humboldt came to Jena in the in the mid seventeen nineties before he went to South America.
他与德国最著名的诗人歌德，以及当时聚集在耶拿的年轻一代思想家和哲学家们的友谊，对他思想的形成至关重要。
And his friendship with Goethe, Germany's most kind of famous poet, but also with the younger generation of these thinkers and philosophers who had assembled in Jena at that time became very important for his thinking.
当我正在耶拿做研究、漫步街头时，我看到了房屋上所有的名牌，突然意识到这些都是我在学校里学过的德国文学巨匠。
So as I was doing my research in Jena, walking through the streets, I saw all the name plaques on the houses with I suddenly realized there are all these German literary superstars, which I had had been taught in school.
这些名字在英语世界可能不太出名，但在德国却是文学界的超级巨星。
Many of the names are not very famous here in the English speaking world, but they are the literary superstars in in Germany.
于是我一个接一个地偶然发现，心想：等等。
So I I just stumbled from one to another and thought, hold on.
这只是一个非常小的城镇。
This is very small town.
在十八世纪末，它只有四千五百名居民，我忍不住想：等等。
At the end of the eighteenth century, it had four and a half thousand inhabitants, and I just thought, like, hold on.
为什么我在学校里学到的每一位人物，似乎都恰好在同一时间生活在这个小城镇里？
How can it be that everyone who I had learned about in school seemed to have, like, lived together at exactly the same time in this kind of in this little town?
那么，当时那里究竟发生了什么？
So what was go what was going on there?
于是我决定去弄清楚。
And so I wanted to find out.
然后我基本上得完成洪堡的那本书。
And then I had to finish, basically, the Humboldt book.
之后，我开始研究这本书的相关内容。
And then after that, I started doing my research about this book.
这是一个关于爱情与合作的非凡故事。
And it's just it is an extraordinary story of love affairs and working together.
也许我们可以聊聊这个，因为它让我稍微想到了SFI这里正在发生的事——那种集体合作的理念，对他们来说非常重要。
And maybe we can talk about this because it really reminds me a little bit of what's happening here at at SFI that this idea of working together as a collective, and that was very important for them.
我 definitely 想深入探讨这一点，因为这里显然有一些自我服务的成分需要澄清。
I definitely wanna get there because there is clearly a bit of self serving that needs to go on here.
但首先，我想和你一起庆祝并探索你所设定的这个历史背景。
But first, I want to celebrate and explore with you the historical frame in which you put all of this.
因为我想听你首先谈谈，在那个时代，德国实际上是由众多邦国拼凑而成的。
Because the first couple things that I wanna hear you riff on is how, at this time, Germany was really this patchwork of states.
它并没有统一，而是由许多小邦组成，比如萨克森-魏玛公国，那正是事情发生的地方。
It was not unified or, like, it was lots of it was like the Duchy Of Saxon Weimar, right, was where it was.
因此，从一个地方到另一个地方旅行非常困难，你知道的，马车、强盗和小偷，而且通信也很缓慢。
And so travel from one place to another was very difficult, you know, horse drawn carriage, highwaymen, and thieves, and communication was slow.
只能靠书信往来。
It was by letter.
但与此同时，正如你在序言中所看到的，新的、更详细的地图正在不断问世。
But at the same time, there are as you see in the prologue, there are newer and more detailed maps coming out.
本·富兰克林刚刚发明了避雷针。
Ben Franklin had just invented the lightning rod.
因此，当时正逐渐形成一种认知：现代科学正开始理解自然的规律。
So there's this growing sense of the it's happening at the time that modern science is beginning to understand the laws of nature.
牛顿光学在这段故事的背景中扮演了重要角色。
Newtonian optics plays a big piece in the sort of background of this story.
我还特别喜欢你强调的钟表和时间的精确记录，因为一种新的、更机械的思维方式正在以更精细的尺度来看待和理解事物。
And then I love the that you emphasize clocks and the keeping of time, and the a new more mechanical mentality was seeing and understanding things with greater granularity.
因此，正如你所说，生活变得更快、更可预测、也更理性了。
And so as you put it, life sped up became faster, more predictable, and more rational.
根据黑格尔的说法，启蒙运动的座右铭是‘一切皆有用’，但这同时也为我们提供了一个机会，去以诗歌和我们存在中的非理性为重心进行反拨。
According to Hegel, the motto of the enlightenment was everything is useful, but that this creates an opportunity to push back against that with an emphasis on the poetry and the irrationality of our existence.
因此，我想在这档节目中与你探讨这种张力，因为我认为我们的世界与你所描绘的这个世界在这一点上有着很多共通之处。
And so this is a tension that I wanna explore with you over the course of this show because that is one thing that I think that our world has a lot in common with the world that you're portraying here.
这里存在着一种并非绝对对立、但同样富有成效且动态的张力：一方面，科学与技术取得了成功；另一方面，人们又重新回归身体、感官、梦境这类事物。
There is this, not necessarily an antimony, but, again, a a fruitful and dynamic tension between the success of science and technology and the rebellious return into embodiment and sensuality and dreams and these kinds of things.
是的。
So yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
你把这个总结得非常好。
You summarized this really nicely.
所以对我来说，这正是这本书的核心，因为浪漫主义、浪漫科学有着如此糟糕的声誉。
So this is really, for me, at the heart of this book because romanticism, romantic science has such a bad reputation.
因此，我试图在这本书中做点什么，我想我是从洪堡开始的，即想象力和艺术在科学中的重要性，这些完全可以融为一体。
So I was trying to do something with this book to which I think I suppose I started with Humboldt, which is the importance of imagination and art in science, that this kind of can all belong together.
所以正如你所说，为了设定背景，耶拿的这些成员出生在启蒙时代，他们确实是启蒙时代的产物。
So you have so as you said, to set the scene, these the member the members of the Jena are born into the enlightenment, and they're very much children of the enlightenment.
而这也是为什么在这个世界里，科学家们将世界理解为一种全新的、神圣的钟表，尽管上帝创造了它，但我们仍能理解。
So and this is also what so this is a world where scientists understand the world as this, like, new like, this divine clock, and we can although god has created it, we can understand.
我们只需要理解自然规律，理解这些自然规律背后的数学方程式。
We only have to understand the natural laws, the mathematical kind of equations behind these natural laws.
因此，一切都变得更加机械化了。
So everything has become more mechanical.
在英国，工业化正在兴起并缓慢发展。
You have in England, you have the industrializations and slowly starting.
显微镜使科学家能够理解生命的细微之处。
Micro microscopes allow scientists to understand the minutiae of life.
你有望远镜，让我们能够理解自己在宇宙中的位置。
You have telescopes, which allows us to understand our place in the universe.
你有分类体系，植物、矿物、动物都被分类了。
You have classifications, so plants, minerals, animals are all classified.
有一种观念认为，你可以为自然强加秩序。
There's this idea of that you can impose order upon nature.
还有这样一种感觉：我们可以对自然施加控制，从天花接种到富兰克林的避雷针。
There's also the sense of we can exert control over nature from smallpox inoculations to Franklin's lightning rocks.
是的。
So right.
因此，对于耶拿学派的人、耶拿的思想家来说，问题在于，这种日益理性化的自然观导致了人与自然之间的疏离，因为自然变成了一个必须从客观视角去观察和理解的对象。
So the problem for the people from the Jena set, for the thinkers from the Jena set, is that this increasingly rational approach to nature gives produces a certain distance to nature because nature has become this thing that has to be observed and understood from a from this kind of objective perspective.
他们认为，这基本上抹去了自然的奇妙与敬畏感。
They think that that has basically erased the wonder and the awe of nature.
他们说，无论科学家如何计算、实验、观察，人类与自然之间都存在着一种情感上、直觉上，或许无法言说的联系。
And they say, no matter how much scientists calculate, experiment, observe, there is a emotional and visceral and maybe unexplainable connection between humanity and nature.
因此，他们以这种更为浪漫的方式所试图做的，正如他们所说，是将科学诗化。
So what they're trying to do with their kind of more romantic approach is to, as they say, poeticize the sciences.
年轻的诗人诺瓦利斯说，他希望将科学诗化。
The young poet Novalis says he wants to poeticize the sciences.
另一位来自耶拿学派的弗里德里希·施莱格尔说，他希望让欧几里得的几何学变得可以吟唱。
Friedrich Schlegel, who's another one from the Jena set, says he wants to make Euclid singable.
他们有一种理念，认为可以超越不同的学科界限。
There's this idea that you can transcend different disciplines.
因此，他们想要对抗这个世界日益机械化的咔嗒声。
So they want to fight this increasingly mechanical clanking of the world.
他们正在对抗这种世界的祛魅化。
So they're fighting against this kind of disenchantment of the world.
因此，他们首次使用了'浪漫'一词的新文学含义。
And they put so they're the very first to use the word romantic in its new literary meaning.
于是，他们将浪漫主义推向了国际舞台。
So they launch romanticism into the onto the international stage.
如果我们现在去问在场的每个人，什么是浪漫主义，会怎样呢？
Now if we would go around and ask everybody here is like, why what's romanticism?
我们会得到一大堆非常不同的答案。
We would get a bunch of very different answers.
有些人会联想到月光下孤独人物的绘画。
So anything will range from some people will associate paintings of lonely figures in moonlit forests.
另一些人则会说，浪漫主义者反对理性，颂扬理性。
Other others will say romanticism the romantics were against reason and celebrated rationality.
其他人可能只是说，我想到的是烛光晚餐和热烈的爱情告白。
Others will probably just say, I associate candlelit dinners and passionate love declarations.
但这并不是耶拿学派所理解的浪漫主义。
But that's not what the Jena set understood.
对他们而言，浪漫主义是一种更加复杂、更加激进且极具动态性的理念。
For them, romanticism was something much more complex, much more radical, and very dynamic.
他们将诗歌置于一切的核心，但并非我们现代意义上的诗歌，而是古希腊意义上的诗歌，即创造性和生产性的。
And they put at the center of everything poetry, but not in our modern sense, but in the ancient Greek sense, which means creative and productive.
对他们来说，浪漫诗歌可以是任何东西。
So for them, romantic poetry could be anything.
它当然可以是一首诗，但也可以是一部小说、一出戏剧，甚至是一次科学实验、一段音乐或一幅画。
It could be a poem, of course, but also a novel, a play, even a scientific experiment, a piece of music, a painting.
对他们而言，浪漫诗歌意味着它能够超越界限和主题。
For them, romantic poetry meant that it could transcend boundaries and subjects.
就像两种化学元素可以结合成一种新的化合物一样，他们相信浪漫诗歌也能将两种不同的主题融合，创造出一种全新的东西。
So, like, two chemical elements can produce a new compound chemical compound, they believed romantic poetry can put these two different subjects together and create something distinctively new.
而所有这一切的核心是想象力。
And at the center of everything was imagination.
如今，在哲学学科中，想象力并不太重要。
Now imagination had, in the discipline of philosophy, was not very important.
哲学家们对想象力一直持怀疑态度，因为想象力是主观的。
Philosophers had looked at imagination with suspicion, really, because it was revealed.
它并不能揭示真理。
It didn't show the truth.
它是一种难以把握的东西。
It was something that was not really graspable.
因此，他们将它置于一切的核心。
And so they put it at the center of everything.
而对我来说，这正是它的意义所在。
I and that is, for me, the importance.
所以，他们并没有反对理性，我认为这非常重要。
So they didn't say so they didn't turn against reason, and I think that's really important.
他们并没有反对理性，但他们说，仅靠理性不足以理解世界。
They didn't turn against reason, but they said reason alone is not enough to understand the world.
我们还需要想象力和艺术。
We also need imagination and art.
让我感到特别的是，这里存在着一种互动，当我们谈到这群人如何重新定义或帮助定义现代自我时，我们会花更多时间讨论这一点。
Part of this that it strikes me is that there's a back and forth here, and we'll spend more time on this, I guess, when we get to the way that this group of people redefined or helped to define the modern self.
但在这里，SFI 正在进行大量关于个体性基本与形式定义的工作。
But in being here, right, there's a lot of work that goes on at SFI on a fundamental and formal definition of individuality.
当我们从科学角度谈论‘个体’时，我们指的是什么？
What is what do we mean when we talk about an individual in scientific terms?
我觉得，如果我们打算在这中间建立一个类比——比如圣菲研究所和这个群体所做的事情，以及我们在这里所做的事情——那么其中一个关键点是，当你回顾像洛斯阿拉莫斯和曼哈顿计划这样的先例时， remoteness（地理位置的偏远）是关键。
And it strikes me that if we are gonna make this analogy between, you know, and Santa Fe, and between what this group was doing and what our group is doing here, that one of the things that makes this work that and you look at predecessors like Los Alamos and the Manhattan Project is remoteness.
对吗？
Right?
或者是一种封闭性。
Or it's an insularity.
所以我特别喜欢书中早期提到的一点：德国不像美国那样拥有边疆。
And so I I loved early on the book how you note Germany didn't have a frontier in the way that The United States did.
它也没有像英国那样庞大的殖民地体系。
It didn't have this massive constellation of colonies like England.
因此，德国哲学向内审视。
And so German philosophy looked inward.
它本质上是内省的。
It was inherently introspective.
而且还有一个关于小镇本身的特点，这些城镇都被山丘或山脉环绕，尤其是耶拿，是一座大学城。
And there was also this thing about the way that the town itself, all these towns are surrounded by hills or mountains, and that Jena, in particular, was a college town.
因此，这里有一种流动性。
And so there was a kind of a transience involved.
所以，我认为这种内省的特质，以及边界的概念——比如在生命起源研究中，无论是热泉模型还是深海热液喷口模型，我们讨论的都是元素聚集的孤岛。
So, yeah, I think the introspective component of this and the way that boundaries if you think about, like, origins of life research and how whether you think it's like a hot springs model or a a deep sea vent model, we're talking about islands where elements are concentrated.
因此，这种类似高压锅的模式似乎与此相关。
And so there's something about that kind of pressure cooker kind of model that seems relevant here.
是的。
Yeah.
正如你之前提到的，德国当时根本不是一个统一的国家。
I think so as you mentioned earlier before, so Germany was not a unified state at all.
它是由一千五百多个小邦国组成的拼图，从微型公国到像奥地利和普鲁士这样的大国都有。
So it was this jigsaw of 1,500 states ranging from tiny principalities to big powerful states like Austria and Prussia.
这既有优势，也有劣势。
And this had advantages and disadvantages.
一个优势是，审查制度很难实施。
One advantage is that censorship was very difficult to to enforce.
每个州都有自己的一套规则。
Every state had their own little sets of rules.
所以如果你在一个州不能出版某本书，你可以干脆去另一个州出版。
So if you were not allowed to publish something in one state, you could frankly just go to another one and publish it there.
所以这相对容易。
So it was relatively easy.
另一个重大区别是，正如你所说，德国不像西班牙、法国和英国那样具有全球影响力，也没有未开发的西部地区。
And the other big difference is, as you say, is that Germany doesn't have doesn't have this kind of global reach as Spain, France, and England, and it doesn't have the unexplored West.
所以我认为，这实际上解放了想象力。
So what it does, I think, is it actually frees up the imagination.
因此，德国人不得不旅行。
So Germans had to travel.
他们并不是乘船去殖民地之类的地方旅行。
They didn't travel on on ships to the colonies or something like that.
他们基本上是在脑海中旅行，沿着书籍的字里行间旅行。
They basically traveled in their minds and along the letters of books.
这有点像儿童心理学家有时说的，孩子需要稍微感到无聊，才能学会运用自己的想象力。
It's a bit like sometimes child psychologists say that children need to be a bit bored in order to be to learn to use their imagination.
我认为情况有点类似。
And I think it's a bit like this.
因此，这是一种向内的关注。
So there's this inward looking.
与此同时，你完全可以凭借想象力成长。
The same time, it really you can you can just grow through your imagination.
由于缺乏审查制度或审查难以执行，新思想和论点在德意志各邦之间传播得相当容易。
And because of the lack censorship or the difficulty of enforcing censorship, new ideas and arguments traveled quite easily through the German states.
于是就有了耶拿，这是一个位于小公国中的小镇。
So then you have Jena, which is it's a it's a small town in a very small duchy.
它是一座大学城。
It is a university town.
在四千五百名居民中，有九百人，几乎是九百人，是学生。
So of the four and a half thousand inhabitants, 900, almost 900 are students.
因此，从经济上看，这座城市完全由其大学主导。
So it's very much dominated by its university in terms of its economy.
所以这里有很多酒馆，比如装订商。
So you have lots of taverns, for example, bookbinders.
有一座大型图书馆。
There's a big library.
有阅读协会。
There is reading societies.
因此，整个城镇都围绕着其大学的地位展开服务。
So it's very much the whole town caters its university kind of status.
但它也具备一些特殊的环境条件。
But it also has a very particular set of circumstances.
由于复杂的继承法，原本由萨克森控制的耶拿大学，现在由四位不同的萨克森公爵共同管理，却无人真正掌权。
So through complicated inheritance law, the University of Jena, which was once controlled by Saxony, was now controlled by four different Saxon dukes with no one really in charge.
所以没人真正去管他们。
So everybody no one is really dealing with them.
他们把这事给忘了。
They forget about it.
于是，这个地方就吸引了思想开明的学者，也吸引了那些在家乡因与当局发生冲突而陷入麻烦的教授和思想家。
So what happens is it becomes this place that attracts liberally thinking thinkers, but also professors and thinkers who had been in trouble with the authorities in their home state.
比如弗里德里希·席勒，他是德国最著名的剧作家，因革命性剧作《强盗》而声名鹊起。
So you have, for example, Friedrich Schiller, who is Germany's most famous playwright and who had become famous through his revolutionary play, The Robbers.
后来，他被家乡的统治者囚禁了。
He was then imprisoned by the ruler of his home state.
于是他来到耶拿，因为这里是一个被当局遗忘的地方。
So he came to Jena because it was this place forgotten by the authority.
普通教授收入不高，因此著名教授不会来这里，因为他们可以在比如哥廷根等地赚到更多钱。
Small professors were didn't get a lot of money, so the famous professors would not go there because they would get much more money in, say, gutting.
所以它吸引了这些具有革命思想的思想家。
So so it attracts these revolutionary thinkers.
他们越多，就越能吸引其他人。
The more of them are there, the more people are attracted.
于是它就成了一个温床。
So it becomes this hotbed.
所以，很高兴你提到监禁这个问题。
So, actually, I'm glad you brought up imprisonment here.
对吧？
Right?
因为我真的很喜欢这本书中的一点，而我们几乎完全没有提到过，那就是少数几位女性在这其中所扮演的重要角色和影响力，我会把名字念错。
Because one of the things I really like about this book, and we have we've hardly mentioned them at all, is the prominence and the influence that a handful of women played in this among them, and I'm gonna butcher the pronunciation.
非常抱歉。
I'm so sorry.
但这个名字非同寻常。
But this name is extraordinary.
卡罗琳·米夏埃利斯·布默·施莱格尔·谢林，你称她为这个群体的心脏，当你开始讲述这个故事时，你从她怀胎入狱、带着女儿一起坐牢说起，而她怀的孩子是与一名法国革命士兵一夜情的结果，她入狱是因为同情革命。
Carolyn Michaelis Boomer Schlegel Schelling, who you called, you know, like, beating heart of this group who when you start the story, you start with her pregnant in prison with her daughter in prison with her, and she's pregnant from a one night stand, a French revolutionary soldier, and she's in prison for being a revolutionary sympathizer.
而且她已经是个寡妇了。
And and she's a widow already.
当你观察这些人物及其故事时，会有一种感觉，很难不将他们与西方上世纪六十年代发生的革命相比较。
And there's this sense that you get like, when you look at it's hard being in this generation, not comparing these figures and their stories to the revolution that happened in the West in the, like, the nineteen sixties.
对吧？
Right?
而这场革命的本质在于，除非你有东西可以反抗，否则你不会去反抗。
And the nature of the revolution is one that it's like you're not going to rebel unless you have something to rebel against.
我想进一步深入这一点，因为尽管你说在耶拿，审查相对较少，人们被允许自由思考。
So I'd like to deepen this a bit because even though you say that, yeah, in Jena, there was relatively little censorship and people were allowed to think freely.
但所有这些人实际上都曾以某种方式受到压迫或压制。
All of these people had been oppressed or censored in some way.
他们中的每一个人都或多或少地聚集在一起，为的是表达某种东西。
Like, all of them had had come together in in part as a way of articulating something.
因此，是的，尤其是在法国大革命余波的背景下，这一切都有一种挣扎或渴望超越现状的意味。
And so, like, yes, the the strain, especially with the backdrop of the aftermath of the French revolution going on here, like, all of this stuff has a kind of straining against or a yearning for something more, for something beyond.
是的。
Yeah.
所以他们都出生在法国大革命之前。
So they they are all born before the French revolution.
他们成长在一个统治者可以决定臣民生活每个细节的世界里。
So they are brought up in a world where rulers basically can decide about every detail in their subject's life.
所以哲学家会因为他们的思想而遭到审查。
So they can philosophers get censored for their ideas.
作家会因为他们的思想而被禁止写作。
Writers are banned from writing for their ideas.
教授会因为他们的思想而丢掉工作。
Professors lose their jobs because of their ideas.
统治者可以决定谁可以和谁结婚。
Rulers can decide who can marry whom.
他们有时还能决定臣民的职业。
They can decide sometimes the profession of their subjects.
他们可以把臣民当作雇佣兵卖给其他国家。
They can sell their subjects as mercenaries to other nations.
所以他们出生的世界是一个专制、不平等和控制的世界。
So the world they were born into was a world of despotism, inequality, and control.
然后，1789年法国大革命爆发了。
And then happens the French Revolution in 1789.
轰然一声。
Boom.
这就像一场巨大的地震式事件，席卷欧洲，无人能幸免。
Like, this this kind of gigantic big earthquake of an event that doesn't leave anyone unaffected in Europe.
我认为法国大革命，当然还有美国革命，但美国实在太遥远了，因此对这些人来说，法国大革命重要得多。
And I I think the French Revolution and, of course, also the American Revolution, but the America is just so far away, so the French Revolution is much more important for them.
当法国革命者宣布人人平等——让我们别忘了，这承诺了一种基于权力与自由的新社会秩序的可能性，它证明了哲学已走出高深莫测的象牙塔，走进了普通人的思想，它证明了思想和言论比武器、国王和王后更强大。
The when the French revolutionaries declare everybody equal or every man equal, let's, you know, not forget that, it promises the possibility of a new social order based on the idea of power and freedom, and it proves that so, basically, philosophy leaves the ivory tower of rarefied thought and arrives in the minds of ordinary people, and it is the proof that ideas and words mightier than weapons and kings and queens.
我认为，这种强大的时刻，我们绝不能低估。
And I think that is something that we cannot underestimate, that kind of powerful moment.
因此，耶拿学派的思想家、哲学家和作家们意识到，他们的笔比枪炮和剑刃更加锋利，并且他们开始运用这种力量。
So the thinkers, the philosophers, the writers of the Jena set, they realize that their pens are sharper weapons than guns and swords, and they use them.
他们第一次感受到：我可以通过自己的文字改变世界。
And they feel for the first time, I can change the world with my writings.
所以，我认为这是一个极其重要的时刻，因为在那之前，只有身披闪亮铠甲的骑士才能改变什么，而你的思想却无法改变任何事。
So that and I think that is it's such a powerful moment because before, it was it was the knight in the shining armor who could change something, but not your thoughts couldn't change anything.
因此，他们密切关注着边境之外的法国，目睹一个国家如何从‘国家’的理念中诞生。
So they were watching what's they were watching the over the border to France, seeing how a state was arising out of the idea of a state.
因此，他们所有人都深受法国大革命的影响，你之前提到了卡罗琳娜。
So they are all of them very much influenced by the French Revolution, and you mentioned Carolina earlier.
让我再重复一下她的姓氏。
Let me give her surnames again.
卡罗琳娜·米夏埃利斯，一位既继承父亲姓氏，也随过三位丈夫姓氏的女性。
Carolina Michaelis, a woman who carried the name of her father, but also of her three husbands.
她确实是耶拿学派的灵魂人物。
And she's really the soul of the Jena set.
在前往耶拿之前，她住在美因茨，而美因茨在1792年和1793年成为革命思想的温床。
And she so she before Jena, she lives in Mainz, which was in 1792 and '93 became the hotbed of revolutionary thought.
因此出现了美因茨共和国，这是第一个德国共和国，但仅持续了四个月。
So there there's the Mainz Republic, which is the first German republic, only only four months.
她当时就在那里。
So she's there.
她与法国革命者交往密切。
She's hanging out with the French revolutionaries.
她被关进了监狱。
She gets imprisoned.
她与一名18岁的法国士兵一夜风流后生下了一个孩子。
She has a child after a one night stand with an 18 year old French soldier.
她当时29岁。
She's 29.
她的行为在当时极为出格，因为那时你甚至不被允许独自与一个男人待在房间里。
And she's we just quite scandalous behavior when you're you're not really even allowed to be with a man on your own in a room.
尽管面临这些障碍，她依然坚持下去。
And despite all these obstacles, she continues.
所以她被称为革命妓女，但她却说：等等。
So she she's called a revolutionary whore, but she says, hold on.
为什么我的一生要因为一个如果我是男人就会被忽略的小小错误而毁掉？
Why should my life be destroyed by a simple mistake that would have meant nothing had I been a man?
但因为社会的压迫，她根本无法在这些城市中生存？
But because of society, she can't re she can I mean, literally, these cities are not allowing her to live there?
这时，年轻的作家奥古斯特·威廉·施莱格尔出现了，并娶了她。
So along comes the young writer, August Wilhelm Schlegel and marries her.
她并不爱他。
She doesn't love him.
但他们成为了非常亲密的朋友。
They become very close friends.
他们达成了一种开放婚姻的协议。
They come to an arrangement of an open marriage.
他给她起了一个新名字，给了她一个新的开始，并带她去了耶拿。
He gives her a new name and a new beginning, and he takes her to Jena.
她有着极其独立的思想。
And she is fiercely independently minded.
她创造了朋友们聚会的物理空间，但她远不止是一个缪斯。
She creates the physical space where the friends meet, but she's much more than a muse.
因为我认为，我们往往认为十八、十九世纪举办文学沙龙的女性只是缪斯。
And because I think we have a tendency to think women in in the eighteenth and nineteenth century who have these literary salons, They are just the muse.
她不是。
She's not.
她是这个群体的智力核心。
She's at the intellectual heart of this group.
她是一位敏锐的批评家，剖析诗歌和哲学论著。
So she's a razor sharp critic who dissects poems and poetry and philosophical treatises.
她以丈夫的名义撰写评论。
She writes reviews in her husband's name.
她是他们文学杂志的编辑，她与丈夫一起翻译了莎士比亚的十六部戏剧，这些是首批德语韵体译本，至今仍是德国的标准版本。
She is the editor of their literary magazine, and she translates together with her husband 16 Shakespeare's plays as these are the first German verse translations, which are to this day the standard edition in Germany.
她的名字没有出现在封面上。
Her name is not on the cover.
因此，她像许多女性一样被历史抹去了，但她实际上非常重要。
So she's been written out of history as so many women, but he she's really important.
他们聚集在施莱格尔的家中。
And they meet in the Schlegel's house.
那里有卡罗琳娜和她的丈夫奥古斯特·威廉，还有他的弟弟弗里德里希·施莱格尔，一个脾气暴躁的年轻人。
So there's Carolina and her husband, August Wilhelm, and then there's his younger brother, Friedrich Schlegel, is a very hot tempered young man.
他们中的大多数人都是二十多岁，非常年轻。
And most of these most of them are all, like, in their twenties, so they are very young.
弗里德里希·施莱格尔是一位文学评论家，他的笔锋锐利如法国断头台，他经常批评他人，惹恼了很多人。
And and Friedrich Schlegel is a literary critic with a pen as sharp as a French guillotine, and he, like, basically pisses off so many people because he just criticizes them.
与其他评论家不同，他在评论上署上了自己的名字。
And unlike other reviewers, he puts his name on the reviews.
他和情人住在耶拿的同一所房子里。
And he lives in the same house in Jena with his lover.
她是德国最著名的启蒙哲学家之一摩西·门德尔松的女儿。
Is the daughter of one of Germany's most famous enlightenment philosophers, Moses Mendelssohn.
她也已经结婚了。
She is she's also married.
她遇见了弗里德里希。
She meets Friedrich.
她离婚了，这在当时非常罕见，之后便与情人弗里德里希同居，住在她丈夫哥哥的家里。
She gets a divorce, which is very unusual at that time, and then lives with her lover, with Friedrich, unmarried in the house of his older brother.
因此，耶拿的施莱格尔之家对我来说，堪称德国第一个公社，他们所有人都彼此同居。
So the Schlegel House in Jena become for me, it's really Germany's first commune, and they're all and they're all sleeping with each other.
接着你还有洪堡兄弟。
So there there is this and then you have the Humboldts.
你有威廉·冯·洪堡，他是亚历山大·冯·洪堡的哥哥，和他的妻子卡罗琳娜一起生活——这位卡罗琳娜同样极具独立精神，她和情人住在耶拿的家中，但无人在意。
So you have Wilhelm von Humboldt, who's Alexander von Humboldt's older brother with his wife, another very fiercely independently minded Carolina who lives they live with her lover in their house in Jena, and no one cares.
他参加所有类型的晚宴和各种聚会。
He goes to all the kind of dinner parties and everything.
然后还有歌德，他和自己的情人同居，这位情人也是他孩子的母亲，两人在家中未婚生活了二十年。
And then you have Goethe who lives with his lover, who's also the mother of his children, unmarried for twenty years in his house.
所以这是一个非常开明的空间。
So it's this very open minded space.
我找到一个统计数据，简直让我震惊：当时在耶拿，四分之一的孩子都是非婚生的。
And I found a statistic which absolutely blew my mind that a quarter of all children at that time in Jena were born out of wedlock.
四分之一。
A quarter.
所以这是一个流动的地方，人们来来往往，留下的是充满丑闻的破碎心碎和孩子。
So it is a transient place, and people come and go and leave behind kind of trails of scandalous broken hearts and children behind.
所以刚才你提到几个关键点，首先是卡罗琳娜，是的。
So in speaking just a moment ago, you made a couple key points about, first of all, that Carolina yeah.
就让我们也称她为卡罗琳娜吧。
Just let her let if we call her Carolina as well.
那时，她被称为卡罗琳娜·施莱格尔。
At that moment, she's called Carolina Schlegel.
所以也许那就是
So maybe that's
卡罗琳娜·施莱格尔以她丈夫的名义发表作品。
Carolina Schlegel is publishing under her husband's name.
接着你有席勒，他发表极具煽动性的评论，这让他与这个圈子的其他成员发生冲突，因为他公然且恶毒地批评了他们的一些作品。
And then you've got Schiller who's stepping out in front of his incendiary reviews, and that gets him into trouble with the other members of this scene when he is somehow just blatantly and viciously critical of some of their work.
然后你还有我们还没提到但至关重要的人物，他在哲学上探讨了‘自我’与‘非我’、‘我’与‘非我’的概念。
And then you've got who haven't really spoken about yet, but is a key figure in the way that he philosophizes the e and this self and non self thing or the I and the non I.
所以，是的，我想更深入地探讨现代自我的形成。
And so, yeah, I wanna go a little deeper into the formulation of the modern self.
但在这个过程中，我想再和你多聊一会儿关于界限的问题，因为在审查盛行的世界里，无论是否远离权力控制，歌德和席勒都谈到，他们匿名发表的上千条尖锐讽刺评论，反而让他们能更精准、更有力地攻击批评者。
But in so doing, again, I wanna linger with you a moment on on boundaries because, like, in a world of censorship and with or without distance from controlling powers, like, Goethe and Schiller talk about how the concealed authorship of their over a thousand vicious zingers about critics, the Zenian, allowed them to aim sharper and hit harder.
但随后，当费希特身为教授、站在讲台上批评兄弟会时，却遭到一群兄弟会成员长达五个月的恶意骚扰，正是在那时，歌德提醒他，这恰恰证明了‘非我’的存在。
But then, like, Fichte, when he is a professor and he's on stage and he critiques the fraternities and then is tormented for five months by vicious mobs of frat boys, at which point was it Goethe reminds him that this is, like, proof of the non ish.
这很有趣，因为这里有一种张力，而这正是我想和你探讨的，即自我的主张——比如，当威廉·施莱格尔说‘我的目标是自由地生活’时，但你也注意到他同时也渴望成名。
So it's it's funny because there's this tension, and this is where I wanna go with you, but I wanna go in in terms of, like, the assertion of the self and how when you have, for instance, where Wilhelm Schlegel says, my goal is to live free, but then you note he also wanted to be famous.
因此，这涉及到对认可或声望的需求。
And so there is this thing about the need for credit or recognition.
我非常喜欢刘易斯·海德的《公共之物》，这本书探讨了现代美国知识产权法的起源，其中花了大量篇幅讨论同一时期欧洲的情况，并指出像本杰明·富兰克林这样的人物，常常匿名发表小册子，作为对公共领域的贡献。
I love Lewis Hyde's book Common as Air, which explores the origins of modern United States intellectual property law, which spends a lot of time in Europe around the same time and points out how figures like Ben Franklin were often publishing their pamphlets anonymously as a contribution to the commons.
所以，这似乎涉及对认可的需求，但同时也存在对匿名性的纯粹实际需求。
And so it's like something about recognition for credit, but then also for the pure practical demand of anonymity at the same time.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我认为，这显然是富兰克林之后的下一代人。
So I think it because this is obviously the next generation after someone like like Franklin.
那我就从费希特开始说起。
So they let me start with Ficht.
费希特于1794年来到耶拿。
So Ficht arrives in Jena in 1794.
他是一位哲学教授，也是耶拿最受欢迎的教授。
He's a philosophy philosophy professor, and he is the most popular professor in Jena.
耶拿一半的学生都来听他的课。
Half of Jena's students come to his lectures.
礼堂里座无虚席。
Their auditorium is packed.
学生们甚至爬在梯子上往里张望。
They're standing on ladders looking in.
人群甚至蔓延到走廊里，所有人都想聆听这种关于自我的新哲学。
They kind of spill out into the corridors, and they all wanna hear this new philosophy of the self.
他基本上告诉我们，最令人兴奋和激动的力量就是自由意志与自我决定。
So basically says gives us the most exciting and thrilling of all powers, the free will and self determination.
因此他说，一切现实的源泉都是自我。
So he says, the source of all reality is the self.
这对我们来说可能听起来并不特别激动人心，但在当时，这却是完全新颖且革命性的，因为那时大多数人仍相信世界建立在神圣而绝对的真理之上。
And that might not sound very exciting for us, but at that moment, it was something completely new and revolutionary because this is still the time when most people believe that the world is based on divine and absolute truth.
自然法则，我们可以理解，但无法塑造它们。
Natural laws, we can understand them, but we can't shape them.
因此，费希特说，自我设定自身的存在。
So, Fichte says, the self posits its own being.
换句话说，自我将自身带入现实。
So, basically, the self brings itself into reality.
不仅如此，通过这一强大的初始行为，自我还在我们的意识中创造了外部世界，即非我。他所说的自我与非我，本质上是在宣称：自我是一切的主体，这是一个非常有力的观点。
And not only that through this powerful initial act, it also brings into existence, at least in our mind, the external world, the non So he says the ich and the non And what he basically, what he's doing with that is that he's saying that self is the agent of everything, and that's a very powerful idea.
这显然也受到了法国大革命思想的启发。
And it's obviously also an idea that is sparked on the ideas of the French Revolution.
因此，费希特的思想在耶拿激起了广泛热情，也通过他的著作在德意志各邦传播开来。
So this excites basically everybody in Jena, but also through his publications everywhere in the German states.
有些人对此感到恐惧，认为自由意志会摧毁世界；而耶拿的年轻人则对这些思想无比兴奋。
Some people are terrified by it because they think free will is gonna bring down the world, and others, the younger generation in Jena, absolutely thrilled by these ideas.
于是，他们将这种哲学付诸实践，活出它。
So what they do is they take this philosophy and they live it.
我认为，这正是他们没有为公共利益做事的地方。
And this is, I think, where they're not doing something for the common good.
这个理念也在于为自己做点什么。
The idea is also to do something for yourself.
但这并不是我们今天所理解的自私。
And this is not a selfishness as we understand it today.
因此，对我来说，这本书另一个关键部分在于自由意志和自我决定的激动人心的可能性，与自私的陷阱之间的张力。
So for me, another kind of essential part of this book is this tension between the thrilling possibilities of free will and self determination against the kind of pitfalls of selfishness.
这种张力是这本书的核心，我认为其背后支撑着两个根本性的问题。
And so this tension is at the heart of this book, and I think underlying underpinning this are two essential questions.
作为个体，我是谁？作为社群或社会的一员，我又是谁？
Who am I as an individual, and who am I as a member of a community or society?
我如何才能过一种既实现梦想、同时又成为一个道德高尚的人的生活？
How can I live a life that in which I fulfill my dreams but be at the same time a morally good person?
我如何调和个人自由与社会要求之间的关系？
How can I reconcile my personal liberties with the demands of society?
如果你看看疫情，这就是当时发生情况的完美例证。
And if you look at the pandemic, this is a perfect example of what happened there.
于是，我们有数百万人遵守了封锁规定，因为我们相信这是为了更大的利益而该做的事。
So you have millions of us who followed lockdown rules because we believe that it's the right thing to do for the greater good.
但也有少数人说：等等。
And then you have a few who say, like, hold on.
我的个人自由更重要。
My personal liberty is much more important.
因此，当这种‘我’、这种自我被置于其哲学的核心时，人们就必须面对这种被重新激发的自我所带来的危险。
So the moment that puts the ich, the self, at the nexus of his philosophy, people had to deal with the perils of this kind of newly emboldened self.
但这并不是一种对自我的自恋式颂扬。
But this was not a narcissistic kind of celebration of the self.
他的本意是真正解放自我，以期创造一个更美好的社会。
This was they he liberated the self really with the intention of creating a better society.
而我们今天对它的理解则完全是另一个故事，因为我们显然生活在一个极度痴迷于自我的社会中，在这里，我们不断围绕自我旋转，自我实现已成为信条，还出现了一整个被称为‘我这一代’的世代。
What we've made of that today is a completely different story because we obviously live in a society that's completely obsessed with the self, where we rotate ourself, where self fulfillment has become the mantra, where there's a whole generation called the me generation.
展开剩余字幕（还有 344 条）
但这并不是他的本意。
But that is not what he intended.
因此，他在耶拿的首次讲座系列中提到，自由总是伴随着责任。
So he said in his first lecture series in Jena, he said that freedom always comes with our with obligations.
所以自由伴随着我们的道德义务。
So freedom comes with our moral duty.
自由使我们超越了原始的本能。
So freedom elevates us over our base instincts.
自由赋予我们选择如何行动和如何表现的权利。
Freedom gives us the choice how to act and how behave.
但自由并不意味着我们可以为所欲为，置他人于不顾。
But freedom does not mean we can do whatever we want and cast aside other people.
而这种平衡，我们今天仍在小心翼翼地维持，这同样也是他们生活与困境的核心。
So and it's this balancing act that we still tiptoe along along today, which was also at the heart of their lives and problems.
因此，他们努力过一种感到自我决定的生活，我认为这对女性尤其重要。
So they are trying to live a life where they feel their self determined, and I think it's very important for the women.
有很多女性掌握了自己的命运，摆脱了社会的束缚和不幸的婚姻。
There are a lot of women who take their own destiny in their hands and free themselves from the constraints of society, from unhappy marriages.
但与此同时，这也是一种平衡，你很容易变得自私自利。
But at the same time, it is this balancing act, and you can very easily become a selfish bastard.
这其中有一种悲剧性的成分。
There's a tragic component to this.
我想再多花点时间谈谈你讲的诺瓦利斯的故事。
I wanna linger for a little bit on the story that you tell about Novalis.
对吧？
Right?
因为诺瓦利斯爱上了诗人索菲·冯·洪堡。
Because Novalis falls for this poet Sophie von Humboldt.
当她作为少女去世时，很多这样的人——尤其是女性——都非常年轻。
And when she dies as a teenager, a lot of these people are, like the the the a lot of the women, especially, are very young.
年轻。
Young.
是的。
Yeah.
但他对索菲的爱在今天看来有些令人不安，因为她才12岁。
But his love of Sophie is a little bit uncomfortable today because she's 12.
是的。
Yeah.
他爱上了她。
He falls in love with her.
她15岁时去世了。
She dies at 15.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
当她去世后，他从一种浪漫诗意的感性状态——正如你之前所说，他认为科学必须被诗化——转变为一种对死亡的炼金术式反派执念，沉迷于进入实验室，试图寻找一种物质基础，以摆脱肉体的束缚。
And then when she dies, he goes from this sort of romantic poetic sensibility, like you said earlier, in which he's he's arguing that the sciences must be poeticized into, like, a kind of alchemical supervillain fixation with death and with going into a laboratory and trying to find, like, a a material substrate by which he can escape the body.
因此，这里又涉及一个问题：自由作为责任的前提，与自由本身作为终极目标之间的界限是多么脆弱、有时又多么模糊；而美国人尤其容易将正确的自由概念与这种无差别的自由混为一谈，这是一种常见的模式。
And so there's, again, this thing about just how thin and sometimes blurry the line is between liberty as a precondition for responsibility and liberty as an end to itself in a way that Americans, in particular, tend to conflate liberty in the proper formulation with this sort of indiscriminate freedom, and that this is a common pattern.
我们曾邀请劳伦斯·冈萨雷斯做客节目，讨论了人们在应对创伤时，朝圣与逃避之间的区别。
We had Laurence Gonzales on the show, and we talked about the difference between pilgrimage and escapism in one's response to trauma.
所以我不明白为什么我总觉得有必要反复纠结这些特定话题，但它们似乎确实与你提到的席勒关于效用与美的关系的论述有关，也与我们在这档节目中多次探讨过的‘有用知识’与‘无用知识’之间的区别，以及艺术在社会中的角色相关。
So I don't know why I feel the need to, like, linger on these particular topics, but it does seem related to when you talk about Schiller and his comments on the the relationship between utility and beauty or the way that on this show, we've talked a lot about the difference between our understanding of, like, useful and useless knowledge or the role of art in society.
然而，如果我们讨论历史上对缪斯的理解，就会发现缪斯并不真正关心你个人，它更关心的是诗意愿景在世界中的具体实现，而人们往往因此被摧毁。
And yet, if we're gonna talk about the way that, again, muses are understood throughout history that the muse doesn't really, like, care about you personally so much as it cares about the instantiation of poetic vision in the world, and people are destroyed.
于是你有了诺瓦利斯28岁去世，和吉姆·莫里森一样，加入了27岁俱乐部。
And so you got Novalis dying at 28, much life forever 27 club with Jim Morrison.
是的。
Yeah.
贝兹。
Baez.
他成为了年轻浪漫主义的典范。
He becomes the epitome of the young romantic.
好的。
Okay.
你把很多不同的东西混为一谈了。
You've conflated lots of different things.
是的。
Yes.
但让我们先
But let's let's
我们先谈谈诺瓦利斯吧。
let's go to Novalis first.
对。
Yeah.
然后也许再讨论席勒关于效用、艺术与美的观点，我认为这非常重要。
And then maybe talk about Schiller and his kind of utility and art and beauty, which I think is very important.
我认为诺瓦利斯是一个非常有趣的人物。
So Novalis is a really interesting character, I think.
有些人可能听说过他。
Some people might have heard about him.
佩内洛普·菲茨杰拉德写过一部非常著名的小说《蓝花》，他就是这部小说的主人公。
There's a very famous novel by Penelope Fitzgerald called The Blue Flower, where he is the main figure.
但在德国他非常有名，在这里却几乎无人知晓。
But he's super famous in Germany, but very unknown here.
他是这个群体中唯一出身贵族家庭的人，但他们非常贫穷。
He was he's the only one who comes from an aristocratic family in this group, but they are very poor.
所以他不得不工作，实际上是这个群体中唯一真正有工作的人。
So he has to he's actually the only one who really has a job.
他是一名矿业监察员。
He's a mining inspector.
他和父亲一起在盐矿工作。
He works in with his father in the salt mines.
他与弗里德里希·施莱格尔一起学习，两人成为非常亲密的朋友。
He studies together with Friedrich Schlegel, and they become very close friends.
他们在莱比锡学习，而他的家族庄园离耶拿只有30英里。
They study in Leipzig, and then his family estate is only 30 miles away from Jena.
因此，尽管他不住在耶拿，却经常去那里。
So although he doesn't live in Jena, he's there very regularly.
他在索菲·冯·洪堡12岁时爱上了她，当她13岁时，两人秘密订婚。
He is he falls in love with Sophie von Humboldt when she's 12, and he they get they secretly get engaged when she's 13.
随后，她在耶拿经历了几次极其痛苦的手术，最终在15岁时去世。
And then she goes through some very harrowing surgeries in Jena, and she eventually dies when she's 15.
因此，诺瓦利斯悲痛欲绝，但这种悲痛却演变成一种对死亡的奇特执念。
So Novalis is completely distraught, but it becomes this kind of rather strange obsession with death.
于是他决定想要死去，但并不想自杀。
So he decides that he wants to die, but he doesn't wanna kill himself.
他深入研究了费希特的‘自我’哲学。
He takes Fichte's ich philosophies, which he has studied very intensely.
因此，有大约500页手稿是诺瓦利斯亲手写下的，内容全是关于费希特的哲学。
So there are about 500 manuscript pages handwritten like, written by Novalis all about Fichte's ish philosophy.
于是他说，如果自我如此强大，那么我应该有足够的意志力，仅仅通过想象自己死去就能让自己死亡。
So he says, if the self is so strong, surely, I should have enough willpower to kill myself just by thinking myself dead.
所以这或许有点疯狂，但我认为这是对费希特观点的合乎逻辑的延伸。
So slightly crazy maybe, but it is I think it is the logical continuation of what Fisht is saying.
因为他所说的是，如果我的意志能移动我的身体、移动我的四肢，那么也许当我强烈意念自己时，我能长出一条被截肢的胳膊。
So because what he's saying is that if my will can move my body, can move my limbs, so maybe if if I will myself, I can grow an an arm that was amputated.
我能把它重新长出来。
I can grow that back.
所以这是第一步。
So that's the first step.
然后下一步是，我可以让自己死去。
And then the next step is I can kill myself.
只有这样，才算真正追随她于爱中。
That only that counts as following her in love.
因此，在她去世后，她变成了一种神秘的人物，与真实的索菲亚已几乎没有关联。
So she becomes in her death, she becomes this kind of magical figure, which has nothing much to do anymore with the real Sophie.
他写了一本日记，记录自己的内心活动，一旦突然感到快乐，就会责备自己，因为这显然说明他的意志力还不够坚定。
And he writes this diary where he observes his self, and then he gets he tells himself off if he has suddenly some fun, because then obviously his willpower is not strong enough.
不用说，他并没有靠意志力成功自杀。
Needless to say, he does not manage to kill himself by willpower.
但他写下了我认为最美丽的浪漫诗篇之一——一组名为《夜之颂》的诗，他不断玩味生死、光明与黑暗等对立概念。
But he writes, I think, one of the most beautiful romantic poems, or it's a cycle of poems called Hymns to the Night, where he really plays with the he always plays with opposites, so with death and life, with sun and darkness.
而且，他是一名采矿监察员。
And and he uses his so he's a mining inspector.
因此，他将自己科学工作中的深入地下，变成了一种深刻的隐喻。
So he uses this his scientific work, the going into the earth becomes, like, his big metaphor.
你进入其中。
You go inside.
你深入内部。
You go deep inside.
你进入黑暗之中。
You go into the darkness.
在那之前，黑暗总是被视为可怕的东西。
You go to so before darkness was always something terrible.
在文学和诗歌中，它本是如此，但他却歌颂它。
It's something in literature and poetry, but he celebrates it.
它成为他作品中一个非常重要的隐喻。
It becomes a very important metaphor in his work.
他后来在矿业学院工作，亚历山大·冯·洪堡也曾在那里学习过一段时间。
So he's and he so he start he works at the mining studies at the mining academy in where Alexander von Humboldt also studied a little bit previously.
他在实验室里，对他而言，他试图寻找一种能够超越身心界限的途径。
And he is in his lab, and he tries for him, it's really he tries to find something where he can transcend the boundaries between body and mind.
他称之为我的魔法唯心主义。
And he calls it my magical idealism.
他是将这种理念推向极致的人，但某种程度上，他们都试图超越界限，将不同学科融合在一起。
And he's the one who takes it to an extreme, but in a way, they all try to transcend boundaries and bring different disciplines together.
对他们来说，最重要的是将艺术与科学结合起来。
The most important for them is bringing together the arts and the science.
艺术、美和想象力对他们所有人来说都变得非常重要。
The arts, beauty, imagination becomes very important for all of them.
然后这或许让我转向席勒了。
And then maybe that leads me over to Schiller now.
席勒最初像许多其他德国人一样大力支持法国大革命，但后来对恐怖统治感到失望。
So Schiller, who was originally a great supporter of the French Revolution, like so many other Germans, becomes disillusioned with Reign of Terror.
当1793年和1794年法国有15000颗头颅落地时，他对此产生了疏离，并开始思考法国大革命。
So as 15,000 heads roll in France in 1793 and 1794, he turns away from this, and he begin and he thinks about the French Revolution.
他提出一个观点，认为正是由于理性与启蒙，法国大革命才得以发生。
And he comes up with an argument where he says that because of reason, because of the enlightenment, the French Revolution could happen.
但由于其中充斥着过多的功利性和理性思维，我们已经失去了对情感、情绪与美的重视。
But because there's so much utility and rational thought behind it, we've lost the importance of feelings and emotions and beauty.
因此对他们而言，艺术与美并非仅仅是审美愉悦、装饰性或点缀性的存在。
So for them, art and beauty is not something that's aesthetically pleasing and decorative and ornamental.
这具有深刻的政治意义。
It's something deeply political.
因此，席勒认为法国人道德上还不够成熟，无法应对法国大革命赋予他们的自由。
So Schiller believes that the French were not mature enough, morally mature enough to deal with the freedom that the French Revolution gave them.
他说，所有的理性、所有的思想、所有的知识，都无法使人成为道德高尚的人。
And he says, all this reason, all this rational thought, all this knowledge that cannot make you a morally good person.
唯一能使人道德高尚的，是美与艺术。
The only thing that can make you morally good is beauty and art.
因此，他称艺术为自由的女儿。
So art, he calls the daughter of freedom.
这变得非常具有政治性。
So that becomes very political.
你或许不认同他关于法国人道德上不够成熟的观点，但我觉得有趣的是，当时艺术与想象力正处于一切的核心。
You might not agree with him that the French were not morally mature enough, but the what I find interesting about this is that this is a time when art and imagination was at the center of everything.
而今天，我们已经将它从科学中——尤其是常规科学中——排挤出去，几乎不被允许存在。
And today, we have pushed it out of the sciences so much, kind of the normal sciences, that it it's not really allowed.
但如果你在这里与科学家们交谈，大多数人会说，想象力实际上在他们的工作中极其重要，只是这一点不会写进同行评审的文章里。
But if you talk to scientists here, most of them will say that imagination is actually incredibly important in their work, but it's not something you put into a peer reviewed article.
这就引出了一个我认为政治上比较敏感的问题，因为我刚刚听了一场关于道德与美学思考之间关系的对话，过去一百年里，德国深刻地领悟到：高雅的审美并不必然导向道德行为。
And so this leads me into kind of a politically sensitive question, I guess, because I was just listening to another conversation on this relationship between moral aesthetic thinking and how over the last hundred years, Germany had a really intense lesson in how a refined aesthetic does not necessarily lead one to moral behavior.
对吧？
Right?
因此，有趣的是，当你观察那些在美國更广为人知、受到启发的人物时。
And so, interestingly, you look at people that were kind of more famously inspired, at least in The United States.
在英国，你有玛丽·雪莱、拜伦，以及英国浪漫主义作家们，而雪莱创作了被公认为第一部科幻作品的《弗兰肯斯坦》，开篇明确提及了洪堡和歌德进行的动物解剖实验。
In England, you got, like, Mary Shelley and Byron and the British romantics, and Shelley having written what is famously considered, like, the first work of science for Frankenstein, which starts with an explicit nod to the experiments that Humboldt and Goethe were doing experimenting on the animal dissections.
是的，还有伽伐尼电流、解剖青蛙、电击它们的不同部位，观察肌肉是否抽搐等等。
And, yes, galvanism and pulling frogs apart and electrocuting different parts of them to see if muscle twitches and so on.
我觉得我们已经从多个角度探讨了这个问题，但这里存在一个悖论：还原论与涌现之间、解剖与知识统一之间的矛盾——正如你所说，亚历山大·冯·洪堡的使命似乎只能是分割，而非整合。
And I feel like we've been exploring this from a number of different angles, but there is this paradox in the relationship between reductionism and emergence or between dissection and the unification of knowledge and the this awkward reality that much like the role of imaginative flights in the formulation of scientific hypotheses, there is this role of as you say, believed Alexander von Humboldt could never create only to divide.
然而，他却非常擅长连接思想，洞察事物之间的链条。
And yet he's really good at connecting ideas and seeing chains of things.
但要形成链条，你就需要有单独的环节。
But in order to have chains of things, you need to have individual links.
所以这并不真实。
And so this is not real.
这些方面彼此并不矛盾，但我希望你能结合另一个重要思想家的观点来进一步思考——正如你提到的，那就是黑格尔。
These things aren't in tension with one another, but kinda I wanna give you that to refine in light of the fact that another one of these big thinkers, as you mentioned, was Hegel.
你有黑格尔的辩证法，即正题、反题、合题这一模式，它成为理解历史以及思想展开与演化的极其有影响力的方式。
And you've got the Hegelian dialectic and this thesis antithesis synthesis thing going on that becomes an enormously influential mode of thinking about history and the unfoldment and evolution of ideas.
所以我就只是，是的。
And so I just yeah.
我非常想听听你的看法。
I'd love to hear you
展开说说这一点。
pull that one.
我们不妨先谈谈谢林，因为对我来说，他更重要。
Let's first maybe talk about Schelling because I think he's, for me, more important.
他们很棒。
They're great.
我根本不是黑格尔专家，你可能已经注意到，他在书的末尾才出现。
I'm not a Hegel scholar at all, and you might have noticed that he only comes at the very end of the book.
所以谢林非常重要。
So Schelling is very important.
所以谢林于1798年来到耶拿，但那时他已经很有名了。
So Schelling comes to Jena in 1798, but he's already famous.
他当时只有23岁。
He's only 23.
他成为了大学里最年轻的教授。
He becomes the youngest professor at the university.
他最初受到费希特的‘我’哲学的启发，但后来逐渐偏离了这一思想。
He was originally inspired by Fichte's ich philosophy, but then moves away from this.
他认为自我与自然是同一的。
And he says that the self and nature is identical.
因此，他没有像几个世纪以来哲学家们那样将世界划分为心灵与物质，而是认为，事实上，包括生命与非生命在内的整个世界都受相同的底层原则支配。
So instead of dividing the world into mind and matter as philosophers have done for centuries, he says that, in fact, everything, the living and the nonliving world are ruled by the same underlying principles.
与牛顿将物质视为本质上惰性、或笛卡尔将动物视为机器不同，他拒绝了这些机械论的自然观，而这后来对洪堡来说变得极为重要。
So unlike Newton who had declared matter as essentially inert or Descartes who had declared animals to be machines, he rejects these mechanical models of nature, which is then something that becomes very important for Humboldt, of course.
因此，他谈论谢林将自然视为一个活的有机体，并指出，因为我们与自然同一，这意味着两件事。
So he talks about Schelling talks about nature as this living organism, and he says that because we are identical with nature, that means two things.
第一，我们可以通过近乎潜移默化的方式理解自然的运作，因为我们本身就是自然的一部分。
One thing is that we can understand the workings of nature almost by osmosis because we are part of nature.
第二，他说，这意味着无论我们是在攀登山峰，还是漫步森林，置身自然之中时，我们都能找到自我。
And the other thing is that he says, it means that whenever we are out in nature, be it scrambling up a mountain or walking through forest, we can find ourselves.
这种一体性的哲学成为浪漫主义的核心，即你进入自然，就能找到自己。
And this philosophy of oneness becomes the heartbeat of romanticism, this this idea that you go into nature and you find yourself.
你会感受到某种东西。
You feel something.
因此，在此之前——我认为总是很有意思去了解之前的情况，以真正认识到这有多么非凡。
So before and I think it's always interesting to see what was before to actually realize how extraordinary this was.
如果你看看18世纪早期的旅行记录，会发现当时的旅行者坐在马车里，透过车窗眺望掠过的风景，用他们艺术史或建筑学的知识来描述它。
If you look at travel accounts from the early eighteenth century, you have the learner traveler who looks through the window of his carriage and looks at the landscape that passes like a painting, and he will describe it through the prism of his art historical knowledge or architectural knowledge.
而浪漫主义者则突然开始攀登山峰，住在洞穴里，在森林中过夜，对着月亮嚎叫。
And then you have the romantics who suddenly scramble mountains, stay in caves, spend the night in forest, and howl at the moon.
因此，他们认为自己是通过个人的感受，而非学术知识的滤镜来描述自然。
And so they think that they they describe nature through their own lens, through their feelings, rather than through the prism of their learning.
我认为这对下一代浪漫主义者来说也变得非常重要。
And I think that becomes very important also then for the next generation of romantics.
一方面，是英国的浪漫主义者，比如塞缪尔·泰勒·柯勒律治；另一方面，在美国则是拉尔夫·沃尔多·爱默生，他深受来自耶拿思想的深刻影响。
One is the British romantics where you have Samuel Taylor Coleridge, and then here in America, Emerson, Ralph Waldo Emerson, who's deeply deeply inspired by the ideas that are coming out of Jena.
尽管今天许多人并不出名，但在当时，他们都学习德语以理解这些思想。
And though many of them are not very known today, back then, they were all learning German to understand them.
比如你有罗厄。
So you have Roe, for example.
你还有爱默生。
You have Emerson.
你有惠特曼。
You have Whitman.
他们都在读梅尔维尔。
They're all reading Melville.
他们都在阅读这些思想。
They're all reading these ideas.
爱默生著名的《论自然》一文深受谢林关于自我与自然统一思想的影响，柯尔律治也是如此。
And Emerson's famous essay on nature is deeply influenced by Schelling's ideas of the unity between self and nature, and the same with Coleridge.
柯尔律治对这些思想着迷到前往德国会见他的偶像，却花光了钱，这让历史学家非常头疼，因为他最终没能见到他们。
Coleridge is so obsessed with these ideas that he travels to Germany to meet his heroes, runs out of money, which is very annoying for the historian because it means he didn't meet them.
但他带着一箱哲学书籍回到了英国。
But he returns to England with a trunk full of philosophical books.
他阅读了所有东西。
He reads everything.
他对谢林的思想印象深刻，逐页翻译，然后假装那是他自己的创作。
He is so impressed by Schelling's ideas that he translates page by page and then pretends that in his own writing.
因此，他被指控抄袭，因为那整整六十页完全是剽窃自谢林的。
So he's then accused of plagiarism because they're literally 60 pages, which is just stolen from Schelling.
哦，美好的旧时光啊。
Oh, the good old days.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
但他最终还是被揭发了。
But he was found out too.
所以这些思想从耶拿传播开来，但其intellectual reign非常短暂。
So these ideas are they spread out of Jena, and and it is a very short intellectual reign.
这仅仅是一个美好的、漫长的十年。
It's just a good tech a good long decade.
但这些思想一直伴随着我们。
But these ideas stay with us.
当你看洪堡时，比如，他刚到耶拿时，本质上是启蒙运动的孩子，一个相信实证数据和科学测量的科学家。
And so when you look at Humboldt, for example, who arrived in Jena really very much as a child of the enlightenment, as a scientist who believed in empirical data and scientific measurements.
而他离开耶拿时却说，歌德给了他观察世界的新感官。
And he leaves Jena, and he says that Goethe has given him new organs to see the world.
正是凭借这些新感官，他前往了南美洲。
And it's with these new organs that he travels to South America.
这意味着，一方面，他是一位带着42件科学仪器穿越南美洲的科学家，但同时，他也会谈论自己的情感和对自然的美妙感受。
And what it means is that he is, on the one hand, a scientist who schleps his 42 scientific instruments through South America, but at the same time, he will also talk about his feelings and his wonderful nature.
而这，就是他带去的东西。
And, and that's what he brought.
这就是他在耶拿学到的：自我在自然中的重要性。
That's what he learned in Jena, this importance of yourself in nature.
所以，因为你一开始提到了这一点，而我有特权深入探讨，我想看看这种思维方式如何为本机构普遍存在的思想提供了基础。
So because you brought it up at the very beginning of this conversation, and I have a dispensation to go here, I wanna look at how this kind of thinking forms a substrate for the kind of thinking that pervades this institution.
而我钟爱的一种方式，就是那本精装版第164页。
And in one of the ways I love on it's the hardcover one sixty four.
你提到了浪漫主义。
You mentioned that romanticism.
对吧？
Right?
我想读一下这段简短的文字。
I wanna just read this short passage.
尽管‘浪漫’这个词的含义可能有些模糊，但这个群体喜欢的正是这个概念的庞杂性。
Though the meaning of the term romantic may have been confusing, it was the unwieldiness of the concept that the group liked.
他们的定义从来不是为了成为字典里一个规整的条目。
Their definition was never meant to be a neat entry in a dictionary.
浪漫诗歌是无拘无束的、动态的、充满生机的，并且永远在变化。
Romantic poetry was unruly, dynamic, alive, and forever changing.
它是一个活的有机体。
It was a living organism.
它本质上是不完整和未完成的。
It was inherently incomplete and unfinished.
正因为它是不完整的，歌德解释说，这为观者或读者的想象力留下了空间。
And because it was incomplete, Goethe explained, it left room for the imagination of the viewer or reader.
这是复杂系统思维的基础，事实上，当人们不断问我们‘复杂性科学到底是什么’时，他们抱怨的正是这一点。
This is foundational to complex systems thinking and, in fact, is the thing that people are always complaining about when they ask we're constantly having to answer to questions about what is complexity science.
对吧？
Right?
复杂性科学根植于诸如哥德尔的不完备定理、戴维·沃尔夫的‘无免费午餐’理论，以及海森堡的不确定性原理——这些都必须先被理解，我们才能讨论有界理性与经济学概念；而这本书的大部分内容正是将有机体作为一种模型来探讨。所以，当你像我们邀请西蒙·迪多时，他谈到人们通过多种思维体系得出对‘什么是令人满意的解释’的不同理解，而这些体系彼此制衡。
And, well, complexity science is rooted in things like Godel's incompleteness theorem or David Wulf's work on no free lunch or the, Heisenberg's uncertainty as something that had to happen before we can think about bounded rationality and economics terms or that much of this book is about the organism as a kind of model of the And so, you know, when, like, we had Simon Dido on, and he's talking about there being multiple systems of thought by which people arrive at different ideas of what constitutes a satisfactory explanation and how these all hold one another in check.
我特别喜欢这一点，因为它与我一直从艺术中欣赏的审美价值相关——那种强调混乱、未完成，注重过程而非成品的艺术。
And I just I love this because it's related to something that I've always valued aesthetically in artwork, which is art that emphasizes, like, messy, unfinished emphasis on process over pro product.
你指出，许多这类人都是以片段形式写作的。
And you make the point that, like, a lot of these people are writing in fragments.
他们将原始、不完整和混乱的元素融入其中，他们的作品启发了肖邦的前奏曲或乔伊斯的《芬尼根的守灵夜》。
They're drawing the the raw and incomplete and and chaotic into it, and that their work was inspirational to, like, Chopin's Preludes or Finnegan's Wake by Joyce.
对吧？
Right?
我想再说一件事，说完就交给你。
That I wanna I wanna just one more thing I wanna say here and then toss it back to you.
你这里有段关于肖邦的罗伯特·舒曼的精彩文字。
You have this lovely passage from Robert Schuman about Chopin.
他说，肖邦的前奏曲是草图、练习曲的开端，或者说甚至是废墟，像一只孤鹰的翅膀，色彩斑斓却混乱狂野。
He says his preludes are sketches, beginnings of etudes, or so to speak, even ruins, a single eagle wing, all colorful and in wild confusion.
这正是让人对圣塔菲研究所感到抓狂的地方，但其实这根本不是缺陷。
This is something that drives people insane about SFI, and yet it's like, it's not a bug.
而是一种特色。
It's a feature.
不是。
No.
这是一种对不确定性的颂扬。
It's a I it's a celebration of the uncertainty.
这是一种对未完成状态的颂扬。
It's a celebration of the unfinished.
因此，他们例如会庆祝谢林。
And they so they celebrate, for example, both Schelling.
基本上，每年他们都会重写自己的哲学观点并出版一本新书。
Basically, every year, they rewrite their philosophical idea and publish a new book.
所以当你阅读时，你会想，天哪。
And so when you read them, you think, oh my gosh.
又改了。
Change it again.
但他们正是在庆祝这一点。
But that's they celebrate it.
他们庆祝这种短暂性，庆祝这种变化。
They celebrate that this is ephemeral, that this is changing.
对他们来说，这证明了他们确实处于思想的前沿。
It's for them a proof that they are really at the cutting edge of thinking.
他们在学生面前发展自己的思想。
They develop their ideas in front of their students.
所以这并不是要写一部关于他们自我的 definitive 作品之类的东西。
So this is not about writing the definitive work on their self or something like that.
每年都会有一些内容被添加、删除、修改、移动或调整。
This is every year, something gets added, taken away, changed, moved, shifted.
因此，这种变动和不确定性正是其核心部分。
So this shifting, this uncertainty is very much part of it.
然后还有碎片化的文本。
And then there are fragments.
他们将碎片化文本发展成了一种文学体裁。
So the fragments is something that they create this as a literary genre.
他们创办了一份名为《雅典娜神殿》的文学杂志，由卡罗琳娜担任编辑，他们的碎片化文本就发表在这上面。
They have a literary magazine called Athenaeum and with where Carolina is the editor, and that's where they publish their fragments.
一个碎片可以只有一行，但也可能长达两页。
And and a fragment can be one line, but it can also be two pages.
但这种方式让他们能够以常常幽默的方式探讨众多不同的主题。
But what it does is it allows them to talk about so many different things in a quite often funny way also.
它让他们能够将各种学科融合在一起，也让他们可以放肆地表达，有时写出一些极具革命性的东西，而这些内容正如他们所说，隐藏在成千上万的碎片之中。
It's it allows them to bring all the different disciplines together, and it allows them to be naughty, and it allows them to write something sometimes something quite revolutionary, and it kind of is hidden, as they say, in all the other thousands of fragments.
所以审查制度根本发现不了。
So the censorship is not gonna find it.
因此，这种方式有很多优势。
So there there are lots of advantages of it.
写给哲学家看，你就不会被抓到。
Write for philosophers, you won't get caught.
他们说，碎片可以我们在饭桌上一起写。
And they say fragments we can write together at the dinner table.
对我来说，当我研究这本书时，我非常享受他们聚在一起的方式。
And for me, that is something that I thoroughly enjoyed when I was researching this book, the way they came together.
所以他们会坐在一起。
So they sit together.
他们会一起工作。
They work together.
他们一起吃饭。
They eat together.
他们一起聚会。
They party together.
他们一起相爱。
They love together.
他们一起做所有事情，但总是很吵闹。
They do everything together, but it's always noisy.
总是很喧闹。
It's always loud.
他们认为从来不需要达成一致，因为他们说，观点的单一性再无更无聊的了。
They agree that they never have to agree because they say there's nothing more dull than the uniformity of opinion.
他们将这视为共同工作。
And they see this as communal working.
所以，诺瓦利斯就说，我觉得在对话中思考得更好。
So Novalis, for example, says, I think better in dialogue.
我需要别人来激发我。
I need other people to electrify me.
他们给这种做法起了个名字，称之为‘共哲学’。
And they give it a name, then they they call it symphilosophy.
所以他们在很多词前加上前缀‘sym’，即 s-y-m。
So they add the prefix sym, s y m, to a lot of words.
共哲学、共诗歌、共工作，一切都是‘共’，本质上意思是‘一起’。
Sim philosophy, sim poetry, sim working, everything is sim, and essentially means together.
他们相信，两个头脑结合在一起能创造出远超单一头脑的成果。
They believe that two minds put together can just create much more than one mind.
最终这一切会彻底失败，但这并不重要。
It goes horribly wrong in the end, but that doesn't matter.
在工作期间，比如他们的文学杂志就成了他们的集体艺术作品。
For a while at work, then their so for example, their literary magazine becomes their communal work of art.
所以这真正体现了我们聚在一起的理念。
So this is really this idea that we come together.
我们做点什么。
We do something.
我们来自不同的学科。
We come from different disciplines.
我们把它们融合在一起，创造出新的东西。
We and we bring it together, and we create something new.
所以因为你去了那里，而我本来就想问你，事情确实搞砸了。
So because you went there, and I wanted to ask you this anyway, it does go horribly wrong.
中心无法维系。
The center cannot hold.
对吧？
Right?
之前你谈到书中所说的，自由意志与自私之间、自我决定与自恋之间、同理心与正义感之间，只有一条细微的界限。
And when earlier you were talking about what in the book you call a thin line between free will and selfishness, between self determination and narcissism, between empathy and righteousness.
一方面，歌德的母亲，歌德夫人，在法兰克福被法国军队围攻时，却猛地打开窗户，大声弹奏钢琴。
On the one hand, you've got Goethe's mother, Frau Goethe, flinging open the windows and playing her piano loudly while Frankfurt is under siege by the French.
这就像一个美丽的片段，展现了现代自我、艺术与美对政治背景压迫的反抗。
This, like, this beautiful vignette of the rebellion of the modern self and of art and of beauty against the oppression of the political background.
这成为了前景。
That becomes the foreground.
另一方面，你有席勒那首坦率地说带有厌女倾向的诗，尽管我在阅读时，作为一位父母，不禁联想到自己，令人遗憾。
And then on the other hand, you've got Schiller's, frankly, misogynistic poem, although one I read thinking about myself as a parent, unfortunately.
但那位著名的妻子，每天早上第一件事就是起床看评论，看看自己是否被提及，而与此同时，育儿室里却传来大声的哭声。
But the famous wife where the mother first thing that she does in the morning is she gets up and she reads the reviews to see if she's in them while, quote, loud crying can be heard in the nursery, end quote.
所以，是的，我想知道，基于你对这个时期和这个地方的深入历史研究，再回看六七十年代，接着是八十年代。
And so, yeah, I would like to know, based on your close historical study of this place and this time, and then you look again at, like, the sixties and seventies followed by the eighties.
对吧？
Right?
在这一切的配方和执行中，你看到了什么导致了这场悲剧性肥皂剧结局的因素？
What is it that you see in the recipe, the execution of all of this that led to the tragic soap opera conclusion here?
还有没有可能，其他由独特个体组成的大胆集合？
And is there any way, you know, that other bold assemblages of singular minds?
是的。
Yes.
替朋友问的。
Asking for a friend.
所以，是的，事情彻底搞砸了。
So, yeah, it goes horribly wrong.
我认为这并不令人惊讶，因为如果你把一群年轻、叛逆的男女聚在一起，他们宣称自我是世界的最高主宰，最终出现自负、自我中心和内斗，或许并不意外。
And may I think it's not surprising because if you put together a bunch of young, rebellious women and men who declare the self to be the supreme ruler of the world, it's maybe not surprising that you end up with inflated egos and self absorption and infighting.
所以我认为，这种情况几乎是不可避免的。
So I think that it was almost inevitable that this happened.
他们每个人都有很强的主见。
They're all so strong minded.
再加入爱情和性，事情就彻底失控了，因为你总会看到离婚。
And then throw into the mix love and sex, and then it just goes horribly wrong because you have you have divorces.
比如，卡罗琳娜·施莱格尔爱上了比她小十二岁的谢林，最终她离婚了。
You so you have, for example, Carolina Carolina Schlegel, who then falls in love with Schelling, who's twelve years younger, and she gets divorced in the end.
有趣的是，奥古斯特·威廉·施莱格尔、谢林和卡罗琳娜实际上并没有彼此疏远。
Interestingly, August William Schlegel, Schelling, and Carolina, they actually don't fall out with each other.
弗里德里希·施莱格尔对此更加生气，我认为首先是因为他曾经爱过卡罗琳娜，所以也许他对自己没能成功而感到懊恼。
Friedrich Schlegel gets much more upset about it, and I think it's first of all, he used to be in love with Carolina, so maybe he's a bit upset that he didn't do it.
其次，我担心如果群体内部的关系发生变化，整个团体就会崩溃，这几乎是一种自我实现的预言。
And secondly, I think there's this worry that if the dynamics in the group change, the group is gonna collapse, and it's almost like a self fulfilling prophecy.
有趣的是，我认为值得思考的是，谁被归咎了责任？
Interesting is, I think, is that who gets blamed?
总是女性。
Always the women.
于是卡罗琳娜就成了那个罪魁祸首，她因为自私地爱上了谢林而破坏了这个团体。
So it's Carolina who's the terrible one who, like, breaks this group apart by selfishly falling in love with Schelling.
人们并不责怪谢林。
It's not Schelling, they blame.
责怪的是她。
It's her.
所以我不知道能对此做些什么。
So I don't know what you can do against it.
我觉得这只是自然而然发生的。
I think it's it just happens.
我认为，当你把一群非常聪明的人关在同一个房间里时，这种情况就会发生。
If I think it happens if you put a group of very smart people together in one room.
情况会变得不同，他们不是仅仅在合作工作。
It goes diff and they're not working just working together.
他们是生活在一起。
They're living together.
所以这相当令人窒息。
So it's quite claustrophobic.
所以我不知道，比如在这里，人们晚上会回家。
So I don't know so here, for example, people go home in the evenings.
他们飞来待上一周、两周，有时甚至两个月，但之后又会离开。
They fly in for a week or two or sometimes two months, but they leave again.
所以我认为这种流动性让情况没那么压抑，也许吧。
So I think there's a fluidity that makes it not as claustrophobic, maybe.
如果我顺便提一下凯特琳·麦谢坐在我的肩膀上提出的星际节日问题，他们刚刚为旅行者号的金唱片整理了内页说明，并链接了去年星际节日的所有小组讨论。
If I just to to toss Caitlin McShay sitting on my shoulder interplanetary festival question into this, there was they just put together the liner notes for Voyager's golden record with, like, links to all of the panel discussions from last year's Interplanetary Festival.
在小组讨论中，我记得有一个关于人类表现极限的话题，谈到了将人们安置在长期太空任务中所面临的心理挑战有多么巨大。
And one of the things that came up on the panel, I think it was on the limits to human performance, was just how insanely challenging psychological problem of putting people together on a long duration space mission really is.
这让我觉得，你的观点是——
And it strikes me that this this is a like, your point is
这不仅仅是技术问题。
It's not just the technology.
这是人的问题。
It's the it's the people.
是的。
Yeah.
所以确实是这样。
So that's yeah.
而且在这里顺便提一下，关于容器的压力，有个有趣的现象，我们甚至还没谈到这一点。
And that's in passing here, again, there is this funny thing about the pressure of a container, and we didn't even get to this point.
你知道，杰娜被入侵了。
You know, Jena's invaded.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
拿破仑。
Napoleon.
但对我来说，重要的可能不是它持续了多久，而是它带来了什么。
But don't you think, for me, the important thing is maybe not that it lasted, but that what came out of it.
也许这值得庆祝。
And maybe that's something to celebrate.
我们之前聊过不确定性，一些未完成的事情。
We were talking earlier about uncertainty, something unfinished.
从某种意义上说，这是一回事。
And in a way, that is the same thing.
它从未完成过。
It's it was never finished.
它未完成，但那很棒。
It was unfinished, but that was great.
想象一下，如果他们都留在那里，活到了九十岁。
Imagine they'd all stayed there and gotten, like, 90 years old.
那可能会非常无聊。
It would have been probably really boring.
所以，一群年轻聪明的人聚在一起，做点什么，然后砰地一下，这种感觉非常令人兴奋。
So there's something very exciting about a group of young, smart people coming together, doing something, boom.
然后他们就像台球一样散开。
Then they go out like a pool table.
球都朝着不同的方向弹开。
The the balls go all in different directions.
但有些东西变了，而这已经足够了。
And but something changed, and that's just enough.
我们为什么需要让他们所有人都一直待在一起呢？
Why do we need to have them all together for the rest of them?
再稍微提一下黑暗和非理性的作用。
Just to nod again to the role of darkness and of the irrationality.
我喜欢你引用弗里德里希·荷尔德林的《许佩里翁》中的话，他说：诗歌是所有科学知识的开端与终结。
I love you you quote Friedrich Hooverland's Hyperion, where he says, poetry is the beginning and the end of all scientific knowledge.
所以，当然，到了某个时刻，一切终究要回归到那种状态。
And so, yeah, of course, at some point, it's all gotta dissolve back into that.
所以我们的对话现在正逐渐消融进非理性之中。
So that's where our conversation is now, dissolving into irrationality.
为了延续这种氛围，我非常想听听你谈谈，你的灵感源自何处，你的好奇心指向哪里。
I would love in keeping with that, I'd love to just hear you riff on where your inspiration is living, where your curiosity is pointed.
写完这本书之后，你留下了什么？它又将带你走向何方？
What are you left with after writing this book, and where is it moving you?
这本书确实与《洪堡》一书是一对。
This book really is a pair with the Humboldt book.
某种程度上，它们是相辅相成的。
In a way, together.
我本该先写《伟大的叛逆者》，然后再写《洪堡》。
I should have probably written The Magnificent Rebels first and then Humboldt.
事情从来不会按这样的顺序发生。
It never works like this.
所以对我来说，我从这本书中领悟到的东西，最初源于洪堡，但如今变得更加强烈了——那就是想象力的重要性，以及艺术与科学的融合。
So for me, I think what I've taken out from this is something that started with Humboldt but has become even more now is this the importance of imagination and the bringing together the arts and the sciences.
当你关注气候变化时，我认为这一点至关重要。
And it's something that I think is incredibly important when you look at climate change.
如果我们仅仅依赖科学家、政治家或地球工程师，我们无法摆脱这个困境。
It's that sense that we cannot get us out of this mess if we just rely on scientists and politicians or geoengineers.
我们需要诗人、作家、音乐家和艺术家。
We need poets and writers and musicians and artists.
这并不意味着我在反对统计学、数学或科学预测，因为这就像那些浪漫主义科学家一样。
And that does not mean that I'm saying anything against statistics or mathematics or scientific projections because that's just like with the romantic scientists.
理性与科学固然重要，但我们需要伴随它们的其他东西，我认为那就是想象力。
Reason, science is important, but we need something else that comes with it, and I think that is imagination.
几年前，BBC播出了一部名为《蓝色星球》的纪录片，由大卫·艾登堡主持。
A few years ago, there was a BBC documentary, Blue Planet, with David Edinburgh.
是的。
Yeah.
其中有一集展示了一只信天翁用塑料喂养幼鸟，场面极其骇人。
And there was one episode where a albatross fed its chick with plastic, and it was such a horrendous scene.
英国出台了法律，要求消费者为塑料袋付费，这并不意味着塑料袋完全消失了，但确实减少了塑料袋的使用。
The law in England so they changed that you have to pay for plastic bags now, which is doesn't mean that there are no plastic bags anymore, but there are definitely less plastic bags.
我们之前并非不知道塑料有多糟糕，但那个画面带来的视觉冲击，有时是数字无法传达的。
It's not that we didn't know how bad plastic was before, but it was that visual impact of this scene, which sometimes numbers just can't do.
所以你需要别的东西。
So you need something else.
我认为，这两本书带给我最重要的启示之一，就是想象力的重要性。
And I think, for me, that is one of the very important things that have come out of both of those books, the importance of imagination.
我想，如果我们今天把自己看作一个自私的物种，正在毁灭这颗星球，那么回到‘自由自我’的原始理念，这种自由始终伴随着道德责任。
And I suppose also that if we look at us as being a selfish species today who's destroying this planet, if you go back to the original idea of the free self, this freedom always comes with your moral duty.
因此，时常提醒自己对更广大社群所肩负的道德责任，是很有益的。
So it's quite good to remind yourself of that moral duty to you have to the greater community.
鉴于您目前所处的特殊地位——作为一位不从事正式定量理论研究、却获得认可、受人尊敬并受邀参与对话的人，我想以一个问题结束：您能否进一步展开谈谈，关于‘两种文化’这一反复出现的问题，您对听众有何看法？
So given privilege of your position here as someone not working on formal quantitative theory who has been recognized and honored and invited into the mix, I guess I'd like to end it by just letting you expand on that a bit and offer to listeners your thoughts about something that comes up again and again in the problem there being two cultures.
对吧？
Right?
在艺术与科学的关系中，许多试图融合或统一这两个领域的尝试，往往陷入一方或另一方将其视为‘传教’工作的困境。
And the way that it seems most art science relationships go wrong, it seems as though a lot of attempts at synthesizing or unifying these different domains are fraught with one side or the other thinking that it's almost like missionary work.
我认为，包括我在内的许多艺术家都会认同，艺术在讨论诗歌如何推动政治变革等方面，扮演着极其重要的角色。
And I think most artists, myself included, would agree that art is a hugely important part when you talk about, for instance, the role that these people recognized in the way that poetry figures into political change.
但，如何才能转变我们对这个问题的思维，使科学与人文学科真正相互学习，而不是仅仅试图殖民或把对方的思想翻译成自己的语言呢？
But, yeah, how might we shift our thinking around this in a way so that the sciences and the humanities are actually learning from one another rather than merely trying to colonize or translate each other's thinking into their own language?
我不知道。
I don't know.
这是个直接的答案。
It's my it's a straight answer.
我是个历史学家。
So I'm a historian.
所以，我努力做的，就是在这两本书中展示我所尝试的，尤其是在《辉煌的叛逆者》中，去呈现一个历史时刻——一个过去曾成功运作的时刻，那时并没有竞争，我只是想以此作为启发：看看歌德这样的人，他是德国最负盛名的诗人，同时也是一位研究光学、植物学和比较解剖学的科学家。
So what I try to do is to show what I've tried to do with both of these books, but maybe more even with Magnificent Rebels, to show a historical moment, a moment in the past where it worked, where it was not a competition, and just offer that as an inspiration that look at someone like Goethe, who was Germany's most celebrated poet, but he was also a scientist who worked on optics, on botany, on comparative anatomy.
两者之间并不互相削弱。
And one didn't take anything away from the other.
恰恰相反。
Quite the opposite.
彼此相互启发。
One informed the other.
所以，如果你看看歌德的《浮士德》，就会发现它深深受到当时最新科学发现的启发。
So if you look at Goethe's Faust, for example, it's deeply inspired by the latest scientific discoveries.
这一切都交织在一起。
It's all woven into it.
拿他的小说《亲和力》来说。
Take his novel elective affinity.
他借用了一个化学术语，但讲的是两对情侣如何像化学中的亲和力一样互换伴侣。
So he's taking a term from chemistry, but it is about two couples which kind of change their partners just as the elective affinities in chemistry.
所以我认为，有时回望过去，能让我们看到一个曾经奏效的时刻——这并不意味着我们必须完全照搬，但至少能让我们看到科学家、艺术家和诗人如何协同合作，创造出非凡的作品。
So I think just sometimes looking back can give us a window into a moment where something worked and gives us an doesn't mean that it has to work one to one like this, but I think it's just a moment where we can see that scientists and artists and poets can be all working together and produce something pretty
惊人。
amazing.
惊人。
Amazing.
加油，团队。
Go Go team.
团队。
Team.
我们来做了吧。
Let's Let's do do it.
它。
It.
安德里亚，谢谢你。
Andrea, thank you.
这两本书都如此启发人心、美妙动人，感谢你写就它们，也感谢你抽出时间。
Both of these books have just been such illuminating and beautiful reads, and thank you for writing them, and thanks for your time.
谢谢。
Thank you.
感谢你的收听。
Thank you for listening.
复杂性由圣塔菲研究所制作，这是一家位于新墨西哥州高沙漠地区的非营利性复杂系统科学中心。
Complexity is produced by the Santa Fe Institute, a nonprofit hub for complex systems science located in the High Desert Of New Mexico.
如需获取更多信息，包括文字稿、研究链接和教育资源，或支持我们的科学与传播工作，请访问 santafe.edu/podcast。
For more information, including transcripts, research links, and educational resources, or to support our science and communication efforts, visit santafe.edu/podcast.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。