鲍勃·奥登科克回归

嗨，我是鲍勃·奥登科克，对于能成为柯南·奥布莱恩的朋友，我感到像巧克力碎片一样甜蜜。

Hi. My name is Bob Odenkirk, and I feel chocolate chip about being Conan O'Brien's friend.

嘿，欢迎来到《柯南·奥布莱恩需要朋友》。今天情况有点特别。我在纽约市，还给它起了个新名字。

Hey there. Welcome to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend. Slightly different situation today. I am in New York City. I made up a name for it.

我管它叫大苹果。昨天刚想出来的。现在我正和大卫·霍平坐在一起。大卫，你怎么样？我很好。

I call it the Big Apple. Just came up with it yesterday. And I'm sitting here with David Hopping. How are you, David? I'm good.

快乐在玉米地里长大，对城市完全陌生。是啊。但这让你应接不暇。他不停仰望着摩天大楼，抓着纸板行李箱说：他们是怎么建起来的？

Happy grew up in a cornfield. Completely unfamiliar with the city. Yeah. But it's overwhelming for you. He keeps looking up at the skyscrapers, clutching his cardboard suitcase and saying, How did they build them?

它们太高了。没错。总之他说这些就像带窗户的谷仓。我说放轻松大卫，你会习惯的。

They're so tall. Yeah. Anyway, he said they're like silos with windows. And I said, just take it easy, David. You'll get used to it.

这样挺好。我们还能连线洛杉矶，和我永恒的终身老友——嗯哼，我同生共死的哥们儿

And this is nice. We have a connection back to LA with my perpetual chum for life. Mhmm. My ride or die buddy

太棒了。

Hell yeah.

索娜·莫夫塞相。今天古尔利不在，他去参加一个...我想想他在干嘛？他在一个...哦就是个所有人都在翻看自己40年前旧物的节日？他是去这个吗？

Sona Mosessian. No Gourley today because he's off at a I think what is he doing? He's at a oh, a it's like a festival where everyone just looks at their old 40. Is that what he's doing?

等等。他是在...文艺复兴节之类的地方？不是？那他在哪儿？你说他在集市是什么意思？

Wait. Is he is he at, like, the Renaissance Fair? No? Where is he? What do mean he's at a fair?

他在赶集吗？

Is he at a fair?

还是你编的？抱歉，你可能对我不熟悉。我瞎编的。哦，是

Or you made them? I'm sorry. You're probably new to me. I made something up. Oh, was

对不起，我还以为...是啊。

sorry. I thought, like Yeah.

我知道，你是新来的。

I know. You're new this.

天啊，我还以为他翘班去文艺复兴节了，我...

Thought, oh my god. Did he miss work because he's at the Renaissance I'd

真想和索妮姆即兴表演。比如：欢迎光临我的冰淇淋店。等等，这是冰淇淋店？

love to do improvisation with Sonim of Sessia. Like, hey. Welcome to my ice cream shop. Wait a minute. This is an ice cream shop?

我还以为我们在舞台上。幕布落下。嘘！嘘！柯南演得不错，但那女的是谁？

I thought we were on a stage. Curtain comes down. Boo. Boo. Conan was good, but who was that lady?

不，他们会说'天，她重新定义了即兴表演'。

No. They'll be like, oh, she just redefined improv.

懂吗？

You know?

对，是的。

Yes. Yeah.

有可能。你可能会成为即兴表演界的奥本海默。

Possible. Yeah. You could be the Oppenheimer of improv.

哦，就

Oh Just

比如说，你在说什么？这不是。我们在舞台上。这不是冰淇淋店。对。

say like, what are you talking about? This is not no. We're on a stage. This is not an ice cream shop. Yeah.

观众们，她刚刚让我震惊了，老兄。

Audience, she just blew through my mind, man.

或者我可以说，你能给我列出所有口味吗？然后整个小品就偏离了轨道，因为你就像草莓、香草、巧克力、岩石路

Or I could say like, can you list all the flavors for me? And then it just derails the whole sketch because you're just like strawberry, vanilla, chocolate, rocky road

嘿。

Hey.

你很擅长这个。

You're good at this.

彩虹糖鸟。你是个很好的即兴表演者。

Rainbow sugar bird. You're good improviser.

我现在继续。现在我出局了。好吧。薄荷巧克力片

I'm now Keep going. Now I'm out. Okay. Mint chocolate chip

榛子。

Hazelnut.

榛子。对。咖啡。加咖啡

Hazelnut. Yeah. Coffee. Coffee with

巧克力碎片味。大卫的是玉米玉米口味。好吧。不错嘛，大卫。那是你...那是你在模仿我吗？

chocolate chip. David has one corn corn flavor. Okay. Good one, David. Was that your was that your impression of me?

玉米口味。我为什么说玉米口味。我要去看百老汇音乐剧《Smash》。我看了。昨晚去的。

Corn flavor. Why do I say corn flavor. I'm gonna go see the Broadway show smash. I did. I went last night.

是啊是啊。和电视剧版很像吗？还行吧。他明显话里有话。

Yeah. Yeah. And was it much like the TV show? It was Okay. There's so much he's not saying.

对了，怎么了，索娜？问我健身吗？是的，我健身。

Anyway, what's that, Sona? Do I work out? Yes. I work out.

噢我没问这个。你确实在健身...你具体怎么锻炼的？比如在外巡演时去健身房吗？

Oh, I didn't ask that. You did are you working out when you do work out? Like, do you go to the gym when you're on the roach?

最近太忙了。事情太多，作息全乱了。

I've been too busy. There's been a lot to do, and so my schedule gets thrown off.

唔，感觉你

Well, feels like you

完全可以挤出半小时

could squeeze in, like, a half hour

来锻炼，如果你真有心的话。什么？什么？

of working out if you really were serious about it. What? What?

不太容易做到。你说什么？什么？

Kinda hard to do. What's that? What's that?

那是什么？

What's that?

我不是你说的对。我得去健身房了。人们在街上遇到我时，都期待我是杰特。索娜？

I'm not You're right. I gotta I gotta get to the gym. People when they meet me on the street, they expect me to be Jet. Sona?

是啊。

Yeah.

我们有

We got

今天有个大节目。大节目。我们真的有个大鞋子。记得艾德·沙利文吗？不记得。

a big show today. Big show. We got a really big shoe. Remember Ed Sullivan? No.

好吧。我们能放些蟋蟀进去吗？

Okay. Can we put crickets in?

但等等。抱歉。我们在即兴发挥。是啊，我记得小时候看艾德·沙利文秀，我们有个大鞋子。

But wait. Sorry. We're improving. Yeah. I remember when I used to watch Ed Sullivan as a kid, and we had a big shoe.

我记得那个。是啊。非常

I remember that. Yeah. Very

记得那次你和艾德·沙利文去冰淇淋店，你点了草莓、香草、椰子、开心果、榛子、焦糖奶油、奥利奥脆片、香草弗利普、萨布哒哒哒。弗利普？哈巴达巴达布。好吧。桑德勒进来了。

Remember the time you and Ed Sullivan went to that ice cream parlor, you got strawberry, vanilla, coconut, pistachio, hazelnut, creme de caramel, Oreo crunch, vanilla flipple, sab dab dab dab. Flipple? Habada bada boo. Okay. Sandler came in.

即兴表演真烂。什么？

Suck at improv. What?

我是那个什么来着？史上最伟大的人物？

I'm the what's that? Greatest man who ever lived?

哦不，我是说你即兴表演烂透了。不客气。怎么？我可以给你提意见。

Oh, no. I said I said you suck at improv. You're welcome. What? I can give you notes.

我会给你意见的。没关系。知道吗？你真该——

I'll give you notes. It's alright. You know what? You should be

有麻烦了。什么？怎么回事？今天的嘉宾。你太差劲了。

in trouble. What? What's that? My guest today. You're the worst.

知道我最爱什么吗？发明实时跨洛杉矶通话技术的人，结果导致了这种局面。他们以为这多神奇，人们能跨海岸做手术。才怪。

Why are we you know what I love? Whoever invented the technology that allowed us to talk in real time to someone in Los Angeles, it leads to this. They think, oh, this will be amazing. People will be doing surgeries from across the coast. No.

两个白痴会互相抢话。

Two idiots two idiots are gonna be talking over each other.

怎么回事？什么情况？不。你说什么？

What's that? What's that? No. What's that?

什么来着？早知你是，但我呢？我是橡皮你是胶。今天的嘉宾是参演新片《无名之辈2》的编剧兼演员。

What's that? Knew you were, but what am I? I'm rubber. You're glue. My guest today is a writer and actor who stars in the new movie, nobody two.

他是我的老友，今天能对话意义非凡。很高兴他作客。鲍勃·奥登科克，欢迎。昨晚我在纽约看了你们排演的《拜金一族》。

He is a very old friend of mine, and it's really meaningful that I get to talk to him today. Thrilled he's with us. Bob Odenkirk, welcome. Last night I'm here in New York. I went last night to see your guys' production of Glengarry Glen Ross.

震撼至极。精彩绝伦。迈克尔·麦基恩和你同台，还有比尔·伯尔。我们这是在说谁呢？

Blown away. Really fantastic. Michael McKean is in it with you, Bill Burr. Who are we talking about here?

哦，基兰·卡尔金。当然是基兰·卡尔金。

Oh, Kieran Culkin. Kieran Culkin, of course.

霍华德·奥弗舍克。我是说，真的

Howard Overshoek. I mean, really

还有约翰·皮里切利。

And John Pirichelli.

这阵容简直太棒了。我是说，你们所有人都很棒。这对我来说真的很特别，因为对于不了解的听众来说，我和鲍勃是在1988年我初次加入《周六夜现场》时认识的，我们立刻意识到你我之间有种诡异的双胞胎语言。

It is just a spectacular cast. I mean, all of you were great. It was really special for me because to anyone who doesn't know listening to this, Bob and I met in 1988 when I first came to Saturday Night Live, and immediately we realized you and I have a weird twin language.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们俩是完全左脑思维的怪人，既卡通化又傻气。所以鲍勃和我以前就躲在办公室里互相说些胡言乱语。

We're two complete left brain weirdos who are cartoonish and silly. And so Bob and I would just hide in an office and talk gibberish to each other.

哦，看吧，这就是我今天联系你制片人的原因。我当时在想，他到底想聊什么？

Oh, see, that was what that's why I called your producer about today. I was like, what does he wanna talk about?

我知道。不，不是的。其实我想聊聊你正在做的

I know. No. No. Well, I wanna get to a bunch of things you're

一些事情。本以为这次又会变成胡言乱语。你知道吗？而且我有个奇怪的习惯——我和朋友做播客时特别享受那种状态，比如大卫·克罗斯的播客之类的，就让它逐渐演变成胡言乱语。

doing there. Thought this would just be gibberish. You know? And and and I have a weird thing. I I've had so much fun doing podcasts with friends, David Cross' podcast and things, and letting it devolve into gibberish.

对。但科南，有件事让我感觉怪怪的，就是...不太想再在公开场合那样了。是的。

Right. But there's something weird, Conan, I've been feeling about, like, not wanting to do that Yeah. In public anymore.

是啊。嗯，这叫做你不想被国家强制用药。懂吗？你不想被带走。我完全理解这一点。

Yeah. Well, it's called you don't wanna be medicated by the state. You know? You don't wanna be taken away. And I understand that completely.

但昨晚你以一种美好的方式触动了我——我们曾如此享受一起犯傻的时光，聊起当年在《开心开心好节目》共事时的种种冒险。对，就是88年在芝加哥胜利花园剧院，和罗伯特·斯密格尔一起做的那个超有趣的尝试。后来有段空闲时间，我们还开车去斯普林菲尔德参观了林肯故居。

But You triggered know what for me last night in a nice way was you and I had this we just loved being weird together, and we had all these adventures we were just talking about when we were in the show Happy Happy Good Show together in Yeah. You know, back in the day Yeah. At Victory Gardens Theater, Chicago, '88, Robert Smigel, just this really fun thing that we tried to do. And then we had some time off, and you and I drove down to Springfield Right. And visited the house Lincoln's house in Springfield.

我身高正好和林肯一样，你就着迷地提议我该模仿林肯说话，而你扮他的法律合伙人赫恩登——对，就是那个留着大络腮胡的赫恩登。你最拿手的就是瞬间化身各种鲜明角色，众所周知。我们在斯普林菲尔德闲逛时，你突然说：“听我说，亚伯，我觉得你会竞选总统，而且会赢。”

And then I'm the exact height that Lincoln was, and you became obsessed with, I should talk as Lincoln, and you should talk as his law partner, Herndon. Yes. And Herndon had big mutton chops. And this is one of your specialties is you can go into these great characters, as everyone knows, and you and I walked around Springfield together. And then you were like, I tell you, Abe.

而我当时回应：“这个嘛，我不确定...”

I think you're gonna run for president. You're gonna win. Yeah. You know? And I was going like, well, I don't know.

我们到底在逗谁开心呢？其实谁都没逗，就图自己乐呵。但昨晚对我很特别，因为你现在——我是说，你获得托尼奖提名饰演大卫·马梅特经典剧作里的谢利·莱文，演得实在太棒了。

And I it was just why who are we amusing? We're amusing no one. I think we're just making ourselves happy, but I think we did that for a couple of hours. Last night was special for me because you're in this you're I mean, I'm so glad it's been acknowledged. You got a Tony nomination playing Shelley Levine in this classic David Mamet play, and you killed it.

绝对惊艳的表演。这让我突然想起1990年左右，你演过单人秀《半张脸是小丑》。那时候我们还在纠结作为编剧该不该站到台前——我们会不会太古怪了？

You absolutely killed it. And it was so because I flash back to, wait a minute, I remembered, I think in 1990 or '89 or '90, you did a one man show called Half My Face is a Clown. Yeah. And again, we were still writers trying to figure out, do we get to be in front of people? Should we be in front of people?

我去看了你的演出，有些桥段至今让我怀念。当时看着你就想：“鲍勃做到了，他真的太有趣了，太精彩了。”

Are we too weird to be in front of people? And I went and saw you do your show. There are bits in it that are still I have such fond memories. And I remember at the time watching you and thinking, Bob's doing it, and he's really funny. This is great.

昨晚我跟你说的，你其实从未割断与过去的联系，因为我总能发现某些瞬间——

I was telling you last night, it's kind of you didn't make a break with your past because I can see moments Yeah. Where you're accessing

噢，毫无疑问。我在《拜金一族》里某些肢体表现或对场景的构思方式——

Oh, there's no question. There's things in Glengarry Glen Ross that I'm doing physicalizations or to get sort of conceptualizations of a moment Yeah.

对，就是那种

Yeah. Of

一种情感或

a and of a emotion or

是啊。

Yeah.

那些可能在我半张脸上的是小丑或快乐快乐好表演或任何那些早期表演。

That are that could be in half my face is a clown or happy happy good show or any of those early show.

是的。比如，你正在做的事情，你触及的那些东西，人们会想，这真的很搞笑，但它不可能出现在百老汇满座的观众面前，你也不可能因此获得托尼奖提名。是的。不，你可以。

Yes. Like, there are things you're doing that you're accessing that people would think, well, this is really funny, but it can't belong on Broadway in front of a sold out crowd, and you can't be Tony nominated for it. Yeah. Yes. You can.

而且，我是说，显然，你通过《索尔》这部剧积累了这些惊人的技巧。是的。《索尔》。是的。《索尔》。

And, also, I mean, clearly, you built up these incredible chops Yeah. Doing Saul. Saul. Yeah. Saul.

是啊。《风骚律师》和之前的《绝命毒师》。是的。你围绕在这些大师身边，你不断磨练、磨练再磨练。我的意思是

Yeah. Better Call Saul and before that breaking bad. Yeah. And you were around these masters, and you you worked it and worked it and worked it. And it was I mean

嗯，你知道的，斯米格尔，罗伯特·斯米格尔，我们的朋友，他甚至是让我能上《周六夜现场》的原因。是的。我想我能在那待上一段时间的原因是他来看彩排。我问他，因为我一直在问这个问题：我在这角色里是不是太傻了？

Well, you know, Smigel, Robert Smigel, our friend, who's the reason I even got on Saturday Night Live. And Yep. I think the reason I was able to stay there for any length of time was he came to the dress show. And I said to him because I've been asking this question. Am I being too silly in this role?

是啊。然后他说

Yeah. And he said

对格伦，对格伦·加里。是的。

To for Glenn for Glenn Gary. Yeah.

格伦·加里。然后他说，是的，鲍勃。你是，你得冷静点。你得收敛些。我一直在等有人给我这个回答，因为那就是我的感觉。

Glenn Gary. And he said, yes, Bob. You are, and you gotta chill out. You gotta tone it down. And I've been waiting for someone to give me that response because that's what I felt.

但我们的导演——这一点他非常值得称赞——给了我们充分的自由。

But our director, who was, to his great credit, let us run free.

是啊。

Yeah.

你知道吗？我觉得他可能犹豫过。他没有...我不确定。他不想让我感到受束缚，受限制。

You know? He I think he maybe hesitated. He didn't I don't know. He didn't want me to feel hemmed in Hemmed in.

或者自我审查。对。

Or editing yourself. Yeah.

而他的态度是，不，这样很好。他非常希望这出戏能呈现幽默的版本，尽可能挖掘剧本中的喜剧元素。

And he was like, no. It's fine. It's great. And he very much wanted to do a humorous version of the play. He wanted as much comedy to come from the play as he could.

他多次强调这点。不过我认为罗伯特是对的。所以当斯米格尔看完演出打电话和我沟通后，我就稍微收敛了些。因为显然在剧终时，雪莉需要赢得观众的共情。

He said that multiple times. So but I think Robert was right. So after Smigel saw the show and called me and we talked, then I just kinda dialed it in more. Because, obviously, at the end of that play, Shelly asks for your empathy. Yes.

你

You

明白吧？是的。

know? Yep.

如果表演过于荒诞——我有时确实接近这个边缘——就很难让观众对这个角色的毁灭，自我毁灭产生共鸣。所以罗伯特帮我调整了这个度。另外，能让我在剧中如此放得开的原因之一，是剧场的规模。

And if you've been too ridiculous and I get close to it, it's hard to say that to the audience and now feel, some degree of impact for this guy's, you know, destruction, self destruction. Right. And and so Robert helped me dial that in. And I think I I I I'll tell you one of the things that helps me to be as fun and big as I am in this play is the size of the room. Yeah.

要知道，我们演出的可是个大型剧场，而这部剧主要是人物对话。

Like, that is a big room we're in with a play of people talking.

与《索尔》不同，《无名之辈》系列电影里没有镜头紧贴你脸部三英寸的情况。所以没错，确实需要一定程度的夸张表现和放大表演。但我觉得无论谁想到这个点子——虽然不知道具体怎么实现的——尤其是你和比尔·伯尔，你们扮演的角色简直像是猛犸象公司为你们量身定制的。至少给我的感觉是这样。

Unlike Saul, there's not or the Nobody movies, there's not a camera three inches from your face. And so Right. Some amount of Yeah. Of projecting and being big, but I just thought whoever had the idea, I don't know how it happened, but and particularly you and Bill Burr, you're both playing these characters that you feel like Mammoth wrote them for you. That's how it felt to me.

我特别开心能看到你在百老汇这么大的舞台上表演。幕布升起时全场掌声雷动。你那场戏——开场戏里你爆发出的能量简直像核能般惊人。我当时就在想，鲍勃是怎么记住所有台词的？

And I was so happy because I was watching you on this huge stage on Broadway. Everyone applause when the curtain comes up. You have this scene. Your opening scene is incredible nuclear energy from you. And I I'm just thinking, how did Bob remember all this?

是啊。说真的，我到现在都觉得不可思议。

Yeah. I mean, that's what I'm I'm I'm just amazed by it.

没错。其实这是我在拍《索尔》时练出来的本事。这部剧教会了我如何记台词。当时我别无选择，而且害怕得要命。

Yeah. Well, I I I got good at that doing Saul. I mean, Saul taught me how to learn a script. Yeah. And I had no choice, and I was so scared.

柯南，我因为压力太大连声音都变了...《索尔》开拍第一周时。雷·希霍恩特别棒，那段时间我们形影不离，她真的帮我度过了最初的适应期。后来我就摸索出了方法——关键还是剧本本身。只要剧本够好，就算有猛犸象喜欢的那种重复台词...

And Conan, I love my voice out of sort of stress Yeah. The first week of Saul. And Ray Seahorn was so great, and we spent so much time together, she and I, and and she really helped me through those early weeks. And yeah. So I I I learned that the ways to do that, which is essentially I mean, if it's well written, if the thing is well written even with the repetition that Mammut likes to

运用方式

use, that

也会让人觉得是角色在思绪中磕绊前行的真实表现。嗯...即便是那些重复的台词，也是在推进故事。每个情节都环环相扣。

feels like people slipping and tripping over their thoughts. And Mhmm. Even even with that, it's a story. It builds. It has one thing goes to the next.

就连那些语言上的绊顿和重复，无论是因紧张还是兴奋，都能让人感觉合情合理。背后都有情感逻辑支撑。

Even the trips in there, the vocal and the the words that repeat themselves feel like they make sense, whether the person's nervous or excited or whatever. That's why there's a reason. There's an emotional reason.

确实。

Right.

没错。所以柯南，这其实挺奇妙的。我拿到《索尔》剧本时——其实《绝命毒师》时期就开始这么做了——会像编剧一样解构它。就像有人对你说'重写这个场景'。这就是我作为演员的准备工作。

Right. And so so it's really kind of it's weird, Conan. The first thing I did with the Saw script and really with the Breaking Bad script was I just deconstructed it like a writer. Like, if we were going if someone had said to you, rewrite this. And, you know, that's what I did as an actor.

就像在问，他到底想表达什么？他的潜台词是什么？他正走向哪个死胡同？然后他又折返重来。这一切都源于写作。

Was like, what is he trying to say? What is his subtext? What is he where is he going down a dead end? And then he goes back and starts again. And so it all comes from writing.

我在这方面变得擅长了，而且大脑还形成了一种奇特的记忆肌肉训练——你的记忆力会变得越来越好。

And I got good at that, and I got and there is also a kind of a a weird muscle training that your brain it gets better at memorization.

其实还有音乐的成分。对，当我观看时...喜剧中我们都能感受到那种韵律。有时候我们冒出些想法，正因为你我热爱音乐，一直渴望演奏和创作音乐。

Well, also, there's it's music. Yeah. When I as when I'm watching and and the thing is, in comedy, we know there's a music to it. Yeah. And sometimes we have these ideas and thoughts, and it's just because you and I love music, and we've always been kinda fascinated with wanting to play music and do music.

所以很多喜剧演员都想成为摇滚明星。早期就有人评估我们的天赋说：你该试试喜剧。这些表演自带韵律，如果你能捕捉到——比如《拜金一族》和《猛犸象》里的节奏模式——只要能在脑中听见这种音乐，显然你们都深有体会。

And then it's that thing that so many comedians, we wanna be a rock star. Right. Right. And early on in our lives, people assessed our skills and said, you should try comedy. And it was there's a music to this stuff, and there's a music to and if you tune into that, I would think that would help because the patterns in Glengarry Glen Ross and Mammoth is just it is if you can hear the music in your head, and I can tell that you guys all are hearing that.

没错。这完全可以看作是一种声乐表演，本质就是声乐演绎。

Yeah. And it is a it's a you could it could be a vocal performance. That's what it is. It's a vocal performance.

确实。我初学时常对着录音机哼唱来帮助记忆。虽然唱得不算悦耳，但那种抒情节奏和隐约的旋律确实有助于背诵。

Yeah. It and sometimes when I was learning it, actually, I would sing it into my little recorder to help memorize it. And you and while you're singing it, it's not a it's not the most melodic thing you've ever heard. Yeah. But it it's got a it's got this, like, lyrical rhythm and and kind of, like, melody that you find that helps you to memorize it.

说到这个，基尔南是最让我联想到这种吟唱式台词处理的人。顺便说，他既没看过电影也没看过话剧版，所以他的表演...

Yeah. Yeah. And I also would say Kieran, of all the people, is the one I most think about when I think about that kind of a sing song version of his words and how he does it. By the way, Kieran never saw the film, never saw the play. So his performance

根本就是偷懒。你把他捧太高了，谁都知道基尔南从不做准备

is lazy. Purely It's just late you're giving you're putting him up on a pedestal, but Kieran is famously just doesn't prepare

他只是犯困而已，性质不一样

Well, he's sleepy. It's not the same.

有次我在播客里聊到他在《继承之战》的角色，我说：难道只有我觉得你演的角色根本坐不住吗？连一分钟都坐不了。他回答：不，你说得对。

I also love I said to him once, it was on this podcast that I was talking about him on Succession, his character on Succession, and I noticed that I said, am I wrong, or is your character just completely unable to sit? He can't sit on a he can't sit for a minute. Yeah. And he was like, no. No.

不，就是这样。就是这样。他，你知道的，虽然不是全部，但我注意到他总是不停地扭动。哦，是的。而且他非常善于运用自己的身体语言。

No. That's it. That's it. He, you know, not the not that it's all of it, but I noticed a lot that he's constantly squirming Oh, yeah. And constantly and he uses his body so well.

昨晚的演出中有一个特别滑稽的瞬间，他试图逃离某人。他冲向门口，终于到了门边，那人说了句话让他停下，他就那样瘫软下来。我是说，那简直像巴斯特·基顿、查理·卓别林的表演风格，真的很有趣。

And last night in the play, there's a really funny moment where he's trying to get away from someone. He's headed for the door. And then finally, he gets to the door, and the person says something that stops him, and he just slumps. And it's I mean, it's like a Buster Keaton, Charlie Chaplin thing. It's really funny.

你知道，我们这部剧笑点很多。是的，其中很大功劳要归功于比尔·伯尔，因为在比尔和迈克尔的第一场戏里。对，我的戏份上来时也有笑点，但那是种绝望的幽默。

We you know, there's we get so many laughs with this thing. Yeah. And and a lot of it, I give a lot of credit to Bill Burr because in that first scene with Bill and Michael. Yeah. So my scene comes on, and there's laughs in there, but it's desperate.

绝望感。没错。然后比尔·伯尔和迈克尔·麦基恩上场，笑点就炸了。对，剧本里写好的。马默斯写的这些笑话

Desperation. Yeah. And then you get Bill Burr and Michael McKeon, and great laughs Yep. Written in. Mammoth wrote these jokes

是啊。

Yeah.

而且这些家伙每个梗都接得完美，更不用说沿途发现的其他亮点。观众因为比尔的关系——尤其知道他是喜剧演员——会觉得'哦，这挺搞笑的'。

In. And these guys are nailing every single one, not to mention, you know, finding other moments along the way. And the audience, because it's Bill, especially, know, like, oh, well, he's a comic. I I think this is pretty damn funny. Well, that's

绝对好笑。

definitely funny.

我可以放心笑了。对。从那刻起，观众就期待我们提供喜剧元素。这过程太有趣了，我觉得不可能有比这更好笑的版本了。但同时我们也抓住了剧本的核心。

I'm allowed to laugh. Yeah. And so from that point on, they're looking for us to provide some comedy. And it's it's been so much fun, and I I don't think you'd ever see a funnier version of this play. But at the same time, I think we're we're getting at the core of what it's about.

没错。懂我意思吗？我们并没有因为挖掘幽默而丢失故事的精髓。

Yeah. You know? Yeah. I don't think we're dropping the the meat of it just because we're finding all the humor within it.

是啊。说来有趣，刚才聊到音乐什么的，我突然想起二十出头刚认识你时，你常表演一个叫'摇滚客'的角色。对，他是个重金属摇滚手。那形象太...具体情节我忘了，但他总会突然来句'不行'之类的。

Yeah. It's funny because just as we were talking about music and stuff, I'm remembering one of the first things I heard you do when we were first meeting each other and we're we're in our early twenties was used to do this character called Rocker. And he was a he was a heavy metal rocker. Yeah. And it was that it was such it was so he was he I forget what he did, but he'd be like no.

他会这样，因为他唱歌的方式有点像他说话，有点像Axl Rose的唱腔，我一直希望你能走摇滚路线。然后他就会说，摇滚乐。我就特别开心。

He'd be like, because he sang sort of like he talked sort of like Axl Rose sings, and I always wanted you to do rocker. And he'd be like, rock and roll. And and I just delight.

每次我看到这样的人——前几天在雷迪奇村，我看到一个走在街上的家伙，他看起来就像个老派英国摇滚乐手。我满脑子都在想，他一整天都在念叨：摇滚乐啊老兄。整天如此。这是他脑子里唯一的念头。

Well, every time I see a guy the other day, I saw a guy walking down the street in Redditch Village, and he had he just looked like an old English rocker. And all I could think in his mind, all day long, he's just saying, rock and roll, man. All day long. That's the only thing going through his head.

你还模仿过一个人

You also did a guy

以前常模仿老年人。哦对。我老了。

used to do old people. Oh, yes. I'm old.

我老了。我老了。现在我们都在变老。开车兜风。已经不好笑了，我就是老了。

I'm old. I'm old. And now we're getting old. Drive around. So funny anymore, I'm is old.

我老了。是啊。有太多小细节我们可以深入挖掘。

I'm old. Yeah. There are so many little things that we would go into.

对人们太刻薄了。没错。但喜剧应该带点

So mean to people. Yeah. But comedy should have a little bit of

我有个段子是开车时——大卫你见过我表演——我在车里开着车，周围全是人。就像在曼哈顿坐优步，到处都是人。我就会说：比他强。比他强。

I do a thing where I'll be driving around. David, you've seen me do oh, I'm I'm in a car and I'm driving around, and they're just people. Like, you're in Manhattan and you're in an Uber, people are all over the place. And I'll be like, better than him. Better than him.

我在车里时，就像有个家伙总在确认自己比所有人都强。要是有人比他强，看到推婴儿车的，我就会说：比那个

I'll be in a car, like and it's a guy who just is constantly making sure that he's better than everyone. And someone better than him. And then they're pushing a baby carriage, I'll go like, better than the

小孩强。强

kid. Better

对，没错。没错。还是很好。比好还要好，而且，简直了，你懂吗？

than yep. Yep. Still good. Better than better than and and, like, literally. You know?

要是别人断章取义听到，你会像个怪物。

If anyone else heard it out of context, you'd be a monster.

不。不。还有太多

No. No. There's so

我做了很多事，那是我对怪物的诠释。有时候你会想，他是怪物，还是他在扮演我希望他是在诠释一个怪物。我觉得我是。但谁会坐在车里说比

much stuff I do, which is my take on a monster. And then sometimes you can think, is he a monster, or is he doing his I hope he's doing his take on a monster. And I think I am. But who sits in a car and goes better than

比他强。

Better than him.

而唯一只有你get到的点就是味噌汤马。我以前有个角色叫味噌汤马，就是一匹只会说'味噌味噌汤'的马。每次你都会笑。其他编剧则会吼：'你他妈能闭嘴吗？味噌。'

And the one one thing I did that only you tuned into was the miso soup horse. I used to go one of my characters was the miso soup horse, and it was a horse that just went, miso miso soup. And you would laugh. And, like, every other writer was like, would you fucking shut up? Miso.

味噌汤。然后鲍勃就会发出他那标志性大笑，我就想：至少节目结束后他会是我朋友。我看着你带着《无名小卒》出道。如果有人告诉我：'听着，你会遇到这个叫鲍勃·奥登科克的人，未来人会来告诉你——'

Miso soup. And Bob would get that have that great laugh, and I'd be like, well, at least he'll be my friend when this is all over. I got to watch you came out with nobody. And one thing I would not have guessed, if you had told me, okay. I meet this guy, Bob Odenkirk, and future man came to me and said, let me tell you about Bob in the future.

'他将来会登上百老汇，会获得托尼奖提名'，我大概会说：'嗯，合理，这些我都信。'

He's gonna be on Broadway. He's gonna be Tony nominated. I'd like, yeah. That tracks. I I can see all of that happening.

'他会和大卫·克罗斯一起做档叫《Mr.Show》的喜剧小品秀，成为无数人的启蒙'，我会说：'没错，合理。''他会成为动作明星'，我肯定说：'未来人，虽然我喜欢你，但你脑子绝对长瘤子了。'

He's gonna have a sketch comedy show that becomes the formative sketch comedy show for a lot of people along with David Cross called mister Show. I'd say, yep. Tracks. He's going to be an action star. I would say, you know, I like you, future man, but clearly, you have a brain tumor.

知道为什么吗？《无名小卒》上映时我就想：'天，我必须...'因为你提前给我透露过。当时你说：'柯南，有部作品想让你看看，有件关于我职业生涯的事...你会...'你还说：'我现在做的事可能会让你大吃一惊。'

Because you know? And when nobody came out, I was like, oh, I gotta because you told me about nobody before it came out. And he said, Conan, there's something I want you to see. There's something I career. Want you to You're gonna and you said, there's something I'm doing now that I think is gonna surprise you.

我当时就想，随便吧。我根本听不懂你在说什么，而且也没人出来。好吧。后来它上映时，我就觉得，天啊，他太擅长这个了。那场公交车戏真的触动到我——你被痛揍一顿然后扔下车的场景。

And I was like, whatever. I didn't know what you were talking about, and nobody came out. Fine. And when it came out, I was just, oh, he's he's so good at this. And the bus scene was this thing that really got me where you get beat up and thrown off the bus.

对。然后我记得你...不知道你是不是解下皮带绑着什么。对对对。

Yes. And then I think you I don't know if you take a belt off and you tie it around. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

又回到公交车上。没错。我当时就觉得，这挖掘出了鲍勃骨子里的东西。那种愤怒。

Back on on the bus. Yeah. And I thought, this is tapping into something that's always in Bob. Yeah. Rage.

有种愤怒。有种决绝。我们都在SNL当过底层小角色。是啊。总有种格格不入的感觉，或者担心自己待不久。

There's a rage. There's a determination. We were all, at one point, low men on the totem pole at SNL. Yeah. And there was a and feeling like we don't belong or maybe feeling like we're not gonna last.

我心里憋着股劲儿。

A chip on my shoulder.

没错。还有巧克力脆片。但我看到那段表演时就在想...最神奇的是，这个角色找上你时，你早已是公认的演技派了。所以你能完美驾驭，打得酣畅淋漓，充满愤怒...我看了《无名之辈2》特别喜欢。

Yeah. And chocolate chip. And and but I see it, and then I think you know? But what's amazing is you this role came along when you're completely established as a great actor. So you've got that part, and then you're kicking ass, and there's a rage, and the the I saw nobody two and really loved saw it.

我也看了。对了...

I saw it. Yeah. How did

你怎么看到的？

you see it?

因为他们肯定把片子保护得

Because I'm sure they've been very protective of

特别严。他们发了个链接给我，我试了无数次都看不了，点开要输一堆验证码。

it. Oh, they are really protective. They sent me a link. I was trying and trying and trying and trying to watch the link. It wasn't letting me and clicking on it, and there's all these codes you have to put in.

这简直就像要闯进五角大楼一样。我感觉自己像是在试图获取核武器。不过长话短说，在精通网络和电脑的年轻人帮助下，我终于成功登入了。

And it's like getting into the Pentagon. I think I'm I feel like I'm trying to access nuclear weapons. But, anyway, long story short, I finally get in. A lot of help from young people who know how the Internet works and how computers work.

是啊，他们连字母表都认得全。

Yeah. And they know the whole alphabet.

哦，这话够损的。就因为我是只猿猴？我不认识字母表？一只爱尔兰猿猴？鲍勃看我的眼神，就像在看1870年移民漫画里那个脏兮兮的红胡子爱尔兰巨人，活像只大猩猩。

Oh, that was low. Just because I'm an ape? I don't know the alpha. An Irish ape? When Bob sees me, he sees me, and he sees one of those immigrant cartoons of a of a dirty Irishman from 1870 who looks like a giant gorilla but has, like, red mutton chops.

所以我做播客才紧张，就怕你让我笑足一小时。观众眼里的鲍勃只会是个喋喋不休的傻乐话痨——不，你现在就是个胡言乱语的蠢货。你管这叫高级词汇乱炖？

This is why I was nervous about the podcast is because I thought you'd just make me laugh for an hour. We're gonna talk I would that's all that people would see as Bob as a gibbering, giddy. No. You've you've Gibbling fool. You're you're a big word gibbling?

现在正式收录了。'胡言乱语者'，你就是个活标本。说真的，

It is now. Like gibbling. It's a gibbling. You're a gibbling Honestly,

柯南，你那些无厘头段子总能让我笑到崩溃。最难忘是你模仿《异星兄弟》里那个外星人

you Conan, you make me laugh so hard, and it's such silly stuff. And I I have I have to say the thing that I'll never forget laughing so hard at is the impersonation of the alien from the movie

啊！《敌人矿场》！对对对，还有

Oh. Enemy mine. Enemy mine. Yes. And and

凌晨两点那会儿。可能是泰国菜吃多了，导致

and just 2AM. I probably ate too much, you know, Thai food, so I had some kind

血糖飙升

of sugar rush.

凌晨两三点钟

2AM, 3AM.

卢·高斯塞尔·朱尼尔也参演了这部电影，还有

Lou Gossett Junior's in the movie along with

这和丹尼斯·奎德毫无关系。

This had nothing to do with the Dennis Quaid.

以及丹尼斯·奎德。

And Dennis Quaid.

这和谁主持节目完全无关？不，一点关系都没有

This had nothing to do with who was hosting the show? No. It wasn't anything to do

完全无关。

the show at all.

事实上，这部电影甚至不是近期的。对。然后你开始模仿那个外星人

I In fact, the movie wasn't even recent. Yeah. And you started doing the alien The

怀孕的卢·高斯塞尔。卢·高斯塞尔·朱尼尔。他饰演的外星人最初看似邪恶，但后来你发现他的种族可以生育后代，这个情节在影片后期才揭晓。

pregnant Lou Gossett. Lou Gossett. Junior. And he's an alien who you've seen as evil, but then you realize that his species can have a baby, which comes late in the thing.

这是真的。因为我从没想过这部电影。

This is real. Because I never thought of movie.

这是真的。然后有个情节是他从凶残的怪物——不是终结者，但类似铁血战士那样的存在——突然转变了。就像在铁血战士结尾，那个怪物开始抚摸自己隆起的孕肚，露出母性的表情，这让我震惊不已。当时我们还有工作要做，但我和你笑得前仰后合，因为我在模仿揉肚子的动作

This is real. And then there's this part where he's become he's gone from, like, vicious monster, and and he's gone from, like, the, you know, the the the monster in terminators not terminator, but predator to suddenly, it's it's as if at the end of predator, the the the monster is like, and rubbing its very pregnant belly and making very maternal faces, and it blew my brain. And all I could do was I mean, we had work to do. Yeah. And you and I are howling because I'm rubbing my belly and

我在模仿孕妇的样子。

I'm making with child.

我怀孕了。而且这句话可能根本不在电影里。我怀孕了。因为外星人不会知道这种说法。

I'm with child. And which may not even be I I don't think it's even in the movie. I'm with child. Because no alien would know that saying.

电影里有这句台词。那会

Was in the movie. That would

是...我不知道。但无论如何，对《敌我意识》的粉丝们，我很抱歉。

be the I don't know. But anyway, to fans of enemy mind, I'm sorry.

然后人们会说，这句台词，我觉得我们可能有点过了。我们得调整下'我怀孕了'这句。

That in and then people being like, this one line, I think we might be pushing it. We gotta tweak I'm with child.

他需要

Does he need to

一直说这个吗？他说了12次。

keep saying that? He says it 12 times.

是啊。这个凶狠的外星人明明很酷，却说着：我在做凯格尔运动。我有涂防妊娠纹的乳霜。要吃两颗人类头骨。

Yeah. Mean, vicious this really cool vicious alien is like, I'm doing kegels. I'm I have a cream I rub for stretch for marks. Two. I have to eat two human skulls.

打嗝。我想说的重点是，这些无名电影真的很有趣。我超爱第二部。或者说《狂暴》？嗯，我想说的是

Burp. The point I wanna make about which is really fun is I love the nobody movies. I love the second one. Or the rage? Well, I'd like

在讨论

Talking about

当你

When you

能触及愤怒吗？

access rage?

但你知道吗？你有能力触及那个。这是你的新

But you know what? You're able to access that. It's your new

我父亲给我的唯一礼物。是真的吗？某种程度上。是的。

The only gift my father gave me. Is that true? At some level. Yeah.

你有一个非常

You had a very

嗯，我爸爸很有趣，但不像我这样。他的有趣在于他擅长一句话逗乐，像是俏皮话。

Well, my dad was funny, but not in the way I am. He was funny in a he he was good with a line, like a jokey line.

但你和他关系复杂。

But you had a complicated relationship with him.

嗯，我们关系疏远。更像是从不给我写信也从不回信的笔友。不。说真的，他能在两秒内从零飙到八十。对吧。

Well, we had a distant relationship. It was more like a pen pal who never wrote to me and never wrote back. No. Seriously, he was able to go from zero to 80 in, like, two seconds. Right.

我觉得我也能做到，这其实对演戏和各种事情都有帮助。对吧。有点像——我曾对伟大的记者大卫·卡尔说过，他来看《风骚律师》时，看了一场戏。后来他对我说，我不知道你是怎么做到的。我说，我知道我怎么做到的。

And I think I can do that, and it actually lends itself to acting and all kinds of things. Right. It's kind of a I I said to David Carr, the great journalist, once he he had come to see Better Call Saul, and he was watching a scene. And afterwards, he said to me, I I don't know how you do that. I said, I know how I do it.

他说，哦，是吗？你怎么做到的？我说，我的情感界限很模糊。

He goes, oh, yeah? How do you do it? I go, I have poor emotional boundaries.

你很诚实，但也很有趣。

You're being honest, but it's funny too.

是啊。但这某种程度上是真的，实际上对并非所有演员，但很多演员来说，他们难免会在某种程度上流露出可能过于激烈的情绪反应。

Yeah. But it's kinda true, and it is actually kinda true of not all actors, but a lot of actors who are able to, can't help but slip between sort of emotional responses that are maybe a little too intense.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你可以说这是他们在展示一项绝妙的技能，它震撼人心、出人意料，能抓住你的注意力，让你沉浸其中。当然在现实生活中，这可能非常糟糕，不健康，确实是心理健康状况不佳的表现。

And you could say that that's a wonderful skill that they're putting on display, and it's shocking and surprising, and it grabs you, and it involves you, and it and then, of course, in real life, it can be very bad and and not healthy and and really be a sign of poor health, mental health.

但我得从那个话题转到2021年的事。我记得当时我在哪儿，突然有人进来说鲍勃·奥登科克心脏病发作了。虽然我常听说这个圈子里认识的人生病之类的消息，但这次我真实地感到：我认识鲍勃。这真的令人不安又可怕。最初我无法确认，你是不是已经不在了？

But Well, I have to go from that to this, which is in 2021. I remember where I was, but I suddenly someone came in the room and they said Bob Odenkirk had a heart attack. And, I mean, I'm always hearing about people I know tangentially through this business who've fallen sick or something, But I had a real response of, I know Bob. This is this is really upsetting and horrifying. And initially, I couldn't get a read on, are you gone?

我开始听说情况真的很严重。是的。然后我认识你弟弟比尔，他超搞笑的。比尔，爱你。

I started to hear this is really serious. Yeah. And then I know your brother, Bill Yeah. Who's hilarious. And Bill, love you.

特别向比尔·奥登科克致敬。我联系上比尔后，他告诉我：我们认为他会没事，但当时情况很糟。结果发现你完全失去意识了。

And shout out to Bill Odenkirk. And I got in touch with Bill, and he told me, we think he's gonna be okay, but it was bad. And I turned out that you were completely out. You were out.

对，对。发生得很诡异。当时一条通往'寡妇制造者'的血管完全堵塞了，我就昏过去了。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a weird thing that happened. And so one of the tributaries to the Widowmaker got completely blocked, and I went out.

在拍戏中途？不是。我们在休息期间。嗯。当时正值疫情期间拍摄，所以我们和剧组是分开的。

In the middle of a scene? Or No. We were in in a break. Mhmm. And it was during COVID shooting, so we were separate from the crew.

嗯。幸好我没回房车。要是回去了，我现在就不会在这儿了——因为他们敲门后不会打扰你，会等上一个小时。对吧。

Mhmm. And luckily, I didn't go to my trailer. If I'd gone to my trailer, I wouldn't be here because no they don't bother you when they knock. They wait for up to an hour. Right.

你懂吗？谁会花一小时自慰啊？

You know? Who takes an hour to masturbate?

你知道，我心脏病发作的时候，其实只是在自慰。那就是我当时在做的事。对，我所有的心脏病发作都是在自慰时发生的。但是

You know, when I've had my heart attacks, it was just masturbating. It was that's that's what I was doing. Yeah. All my heart attacks happen while masturbating. But

我当时就坐在，你知道的，我们之前坐的位置。雷和帕特里克就在旁边。这个故事我已经讲过太多遍了。是啊。

I I sat, you know, where we were sitting. Ray and Patrick were right there. I've told this story too many times. Yeah.

不过没关系。

But it's okay.

然后事情发生了，我倒下了。我的脸色立刻变得灰白，情况越来越糟。当身体停止运转时，就会变成这样，哦，什么都不重要了。

And this thing happened, and I went down. I turned gray right away and did worse. What your body does when it stops going, oh, nothing matters anymore.

是啊。哇哦。

Yeah. Wow.

对，我当时已经不省人事了。雷托着我的头不让它磕到水泥地上，他们开始尖叫，但因为新冠疫情人们都离得很远。后来工作人员告诉我，他们还以为那是在大笑。我们以为，哦，他们是在为什么事放声大笑。

Yeah. And I was just gone. And Ray held my head up off the cement, and they started screaming, but people were far away because of COVID. So the crew later told me, you know, we thought that they were laughing. They we thought, oh, they're laughing very loudly at something.

过了几秒才意识到人们是在尖叫。幸运的是我们在片场，我们的医疗官罗莎·埃斯特拉达在场，她从办公室冲出来。她在军队服役过两期。哇。她立刻专业地进行了心肺复苏，做得非常好，把我的肋骨都压断了。

It took a few seconds to realize people were screaming. And, luckily, we were at the studio, and our medical officer was there, Rosa Estrada, and she came out of her office. She'd done two tours with the army. Wow. She immediately did CPR properly, really well, broke my ribs.

当时节目的医疗官，那个医护人员也在场，但他有点吓呆了。是啊。他当时非常惊慌

And, the medical officer, of the show, the medic, was there too, but he kind of froze up. Yeah. He was very freaked out

是啊。

Yeah.

后来他还向我道歉了。对。不过之后他也帮忙了，他们轮流上阵。关键是他们有十五分钟都没拿到AED除颤器。但因为心肺复苏做得很好，加上他们还有那个呼吸面罩，

And later apologized to me. Yeah. But he then also helped out, and they all switched off. Essentially, they weren't able to get an AED for fifteen minutes. So because CPR was done so well and because they also had that breathing mask,

你知道，

you know,

那两件事，加上我为'无名之辈'做的训练，使得通往心脏的其他静脉变得更大，可以说是扩张了。没错，比正常情况下看到的要粗壮，因为我进行了大量训练。这意味着血液能够——

Those two things, as well as my training for nobody, which made some of the other veins to my heart larger, sort of enlarged. Right. Like, bigger than you would normally see because I did so much training. That meant that blood was able to get You're

将含氧血液输送到你的对。输送到你的大脑。

getting oxygenated blood to your Yes. To your brain.

还有我的心脏。是的。因为心脏会立刻开始死亡。对吧？它会开始形成疤痕并死亡。

And my heart. Yeah. Because the heart starts to die right away. Right? It starts to scar up and die.

但由于那些其他静脉持续向心脏供血，心脏没有形成疤痕。所以我的心脏几乎没有留下任何——

But because those other veins were feeding blood through my heart, the heart didn't scar up. So my heart has almost no scarring at

疤痕。太棒了。是的。

all Fantastic. Yeah.

整整十五分钟人们就这样抢救。然后他们用了AED（自动体外除颤器），电击了三次才起作用，这很罕见。是的。超级可怕，这也是恐惧和那种真实感的来源——整件事都令人毛骨悚然。实际上，扮演拉洛的托尼·道尔顿和他好友当时都在场。

For fifteen minutes of just people doing this. And then they had the AED, and it took three hits for the AED to work, which is a lot. Yeah. It's kind of super scary, and that's where some of the fear and the the real well, everything about it was really scary. And in fact, Tony Dalton, who played Lalo and his good friend, he was there.

所有人围在一起，他说：'我见过一个人在机场因心脏病发作死去，和你完全一样的情况。我又看到了这一幕，心想：完了，这人没救了。'

They were all there. Everybody gathered around, and, he said, I saw a guy die from a heart attack. He at an at an airport, and you same exact thing is what you I saw it again. I'm like, well, he's dead. This guy's over.

那三次AED电击也把大家吓坏了，因为那个设备会说话。它说：'未检测到心跳。远离患者身体。十、九、八、七...'倒数到一后就会放电，你的身体会被震得弹离地面。

And, so it was the three AED hits that also super freak people out because that AED device does a thing. It talks. It says, no heartbeat detected. Step away from the body. Ten, nine, eight, seven, down to one, and then it shoots, and then your body jumps off the ground.

然后会有个缓冲时间，接着它又说：'未检测到心跳。'他们还会检查你，再次要求'远离患者身体'——因为不能靠近，碰到就会被电击。所以需要三次电击这个事实让所有人都觉得可能——

And then there's, like, some recoup moment, and then it goes, no heartbeat detected. And and so they they also check you, then it's a step away from the body because you can't be near it, right? You can't be touching it, or you'll get shocked. And so the fact that that had to be done three times made everyone feel that this thing was maybe

就是在工作。是啊。

just working. Yeah.

是啊。当时我们离消防站特别远。我要讲这个故事了。我已经讲过太多次了。抱歉。

Yeah. And so then we were very far from the fire station. I'm gonna tell this story. I've told it too many times. I apologize.

直接跳到下一个片段吧。

Just go to the next clip.

之前没人听过。这是第一次。我们是第一次听，我是说，

No one heard the other times. This is the first time. We're the first time I mean,

人们真的会听病毒录音。救护车赶到那里花了几分钟。

people really listen to virus. Minutes for the ambulance to get there.

是啊。

Yeah.

天啊。然后呢，医院确实很远。他们把我送到了阿尔伯克基一家很棒的医院，长老会医院。第二天凌晨五点，我想他们给我实施了昏迷。你知道吗？

Jesus. And then well, they were far. And and then they took me to a great hospital, Presbyterian in Albuquerque. And then at 5AM in the next morning, I think they put me in a coma. You know?

我觉得他们让我进入了停滞状态。凌晨五点，他们从这里进去，现在连疤痕都看不到了。通过手腕？对，他们伸进去，把东西推出来，清理干净，放了两根支架。老天。

I think they put me in a stasis state. Then at 5AM, they went in through here, which you can't even see that scar anymore. Through your wrist? And, yeah, they went in, pushed it out, cleaned it out, put in two stents. Jesus.

他们只用了一把硬毛刷。

They used just a bristle brush.

他们是去五金店买的吗？而且他们他妈的根本不消毒。他们在不同手术之间都不清洗工具。

Did they go to the hardware store? And they don't clean it fucking hardware. They don't clean it between procedures.

我告诉他们，你知道的，这东西在架子上放了几个月。上面都积灰了。你们洗过吗？冲洗过吗？什么都没有。

I told them, you know, it's just sitting on the shelf for months. There's dust on it. Did you wash it? Did you rinse it? Nothing.

他们把它放在手套箱里。

They keep it in their glove compartment.

他们说我们当时很着急。是啊。我说，好吧，你们是在担心我。而他们说不是。我们还有其他项目。

They said we were in a hurry. Yeah. I said, well, you were worried about me. And they no. We had other projects.

他们给我们打电话。

They call us.

有个马桶需要修理。你是这么说的

There's toilet that needed work. You say that

你看。当时所有人确实都吓坏了，而且都有充分的理由。

you Look. Everybody was really scared for for all legitimate reasons.

没错。

Yep.

我超级幸运，柯南。心肺复苏做得非常好。是的。三个人轮流操作，因为如果你做得标准的话，一个人最多坚持不了两分半到三分钟就会筋疲力尽。

I'm super lucky, Conan. CPR was done really well. Yeah. Three people switched off because you can't do it for if you're doing it well, you can't do it for more than two and a half minutes, three minutes because you're exhausted.

对。

Right.

所以需要有人接替。当时有三个人轮换。天啊。还有那个AED除颤器——现在每个摄影棚都配备了，但当时整个片场所有摄影楼里一台都没有。而我们的罗莎汽车后备箱里刚好有台她准备还给朋友的设备。

So you need someone to hand it off to. So there's three people who switched off. Jesus. And then this AED device, which every studio there has now, but at the time, there was none in any of the studio buildings on the whole lot. But our Rosa had one in the trunk of her car that she'd been trying to return to her friend.

她借了那样东西，试图归还时朋友不在家，否则它就不会出现在她车里了。

She had borrowed it, and she had tried to return it, and her friend wasn't home, or it wouldn't have been in her car.

刚到

Just in

而且她的车停在那里——你知道那些停车场有多大——她不得不跑过去取。太多巧合让我们如此幸运。我有朋友们告诉我的故事，雷、帕特里克、文斯，我能看出他们亲历现场后有多震惊。我不断让他们复述，因为我完全失忆了。一片空白。

And and her car was parked, you know, as those lots are huge, and she had to run and go get it. So it just so many things happened that we're lucky. I I have the stories that my friends told me, Ray, of course, Patrick, Vince, the degree to which I could see how shaken they were from having been there. I kept asking them to tell me the story because I had no memory at all. Nothing.

就是突然醒来，一周后出院。我最初的记忆是出院面谈时和医生说话。我在医院住了一周，第二天凌晨1点就醒了但昏昏沉沉，对住院过程毫无记忆。

It was just a blank. It was just wake up, and I'm leaving the hospital a week later. That's my first memory is talking to the doctor on my exit interview. So I was there for a week. I was awake the next day at 01:00, but groggy, but I don't have any memory of any of the hospital at all.

我对事发当天——整个拍摄日也毫无印象。这场意外给我的诡异馈赠是：接下来几周我出现严重记忆障碍。起初连身在何处都不知道，但完全不感到害怕。

And and I don't have any memory of the day, the whole day that we shot. So we had shot all day. One of the gifts that it gave me, this is so weird, is for the next couple weeks, I had memory challenges and a lot at first. Like, I didn't know where I was. I would would not but not be scared at all.

每次醒来都会惊叹，说真的柯南，就像重新认识世界——这地方太他妈美妙了。

I would wake up and be like, wow. I mean, honestly, Conan, it was like, if I it's like, look at this world. Yeah. This place is fucking amazing.

可这里是纽约的SiriusXM电台，实在谈不上美妙。你说的是青草阳光那些？是啊，生命啊蝴蝶啊什么的。

Well, this is SiriusXM in New York, and it really isn't. And so, I mean, you know, you're talking about a blade of grass, sunlight. Yeah. You know? Just life, butterflies.

但严肃地说——纽约可没这些。

But serious like I said, New York. No.

不，我们才不在乎——

No. Our I don't care if

哪怕你刚从死亡昏迷中苏醒。

you just came out of a death coma.

确实如此，这发生在我的记忆每天逐渐恢复一点的时候。但我醒来时并不像平常那样——通常我会带着入睡前的恐惧、担忧或关于你的心事醒来。

It really was and this happened when my memory came back a little a little bit more every day. But I didn't wake up the way we no. I do normally, which is whatever I went to bed afraid of, scared about Mhmm. Concerned about With you.

立刻。

Right away.

就在那里。更不用说我的大脑自然回归的默认状态：我该担心什么？我该担心什么？是的。

Right there. Not to mention my own brain's natural fallback position. What should I be worried about? What should I be worried about? Yeah.

简直像在逐项检查清单。我觉得这是我从母亲那里继承的习惯：这个人过得怎样？那个人情况如何？我能为这个人做些什么？

Literally going down the list. I think this is something I got from my mom. How is this person doing? How is that person doing? What can I do to help this person?

我能为生活中关心的某人做些什么？现在我应该担心谁？是的。你知道吗？我该担心些什么？

What can I do to help somebody in my life who I'm concerned about? And just who should I be worried about right now? Yeah. You know? And what should I be worried about?

而那时我完全没有这些念头。世界是个美好的地方，有我爱的人围绕着我，还有一份让我难以置信的神奇工作。这种状态持续了数月，好几个月。

And I just didn't have any of that. The world was a wonderful place. I had people I loved around me. I had a job that I can't believe a magically wonderful job that I get to do. That carried with me for months, for months.

我有个问题。

Here's the question I have.

因为我注意到这个。你知道，911时我住在纽约。是的。之后纽约每个人都表现出最好的一面，那真是美好的景象。

Because I've noticed this. You know, I lived in New York on 09:11. Yeah. And everybody was on their best behavior after 09:11 in New York City, and it was just a beautiful thing. Yeah.

比如你去餐厅，人们会说'你们得出去消费，要让城市运转起来'。你去任何地方，服务员来点单时，你会问他们过得怎样、住在哪里，然后邀请他们坐下加入聊天。这种现象随处可见。

You know, you're you'd go to a restaurant, people said, you've gotta go out. You've gotta keep the city going. You'd you'd go places, and the person would come over to take your order, you'd ask them how they're doing, where do they live, and then you'd make them sit down, and they'd join. I mean, it was just this happening. Yeah.

我想这种状态持续了五、六周。之后人们又开始争吵，我当时就想'啊，我明白了，这就是人类的本性回归'。你现在还能感受到那种感恩之情吗？那种'我正在受苦'的感觉？

And it I think it lasted five, six weeks. Yeah. And then people started bickering, and and I and I just thought, oh, I see. This is what humans revert. Are you able to still access the gratitude, the feeling of I'm suffering?

很好。

Good.

是的。我是说，我觉得我必须努力。但随着记忆逐渐恢复，这变得尤为明显——因为最初你担心的当然是：'也许我无法完全恢复记忆，那样我就没法演戏了'。

Yes. I am. I mean, I think I have to make an effort. But it definitely especially as my memory came back because, of course, the first thing you're concerned is, well, hey. Maybe I'm not gonna get it all back, and then I can't act and stuff.

没错。

Right.

但我每天都能一点点找回记忆，我能感觉到自己会好起来的。明白吗？但我必须记住这种状态，必须记住它的价值。这应该成为你日常生活的一部分。

But I, you know, I was getting it back a little at a time every day, and I could sense that I'll get I'll be okay. You know? But I've gotta remember what this state is like. I've gotta remember the value of this. This is this should be a part of your day every day.

是的。你每天都应该感受这种状态。无论如何，你都应该让自己达到这种境界，因为这也是真实的。我们的世界确实充满忧虑、危险和需要关注的事，但你也应该尽可能经常回归这种心境。

Yes. You should feel this every day. At some point, somehow, you should get yourself here because this is true too. It's true that our world is filled with concern and worry and danger and things you should pay attention and be concerned about. But this also should be something you touch base with as often as you can.

是啊。我多年前就意识到，谦逊、感恩这些词常被挂在嘴边，但它们不是终点，而是像仰卧起坐或拉伸训练——必须每天或隔天练习，不是说'我有感恩心了'就能一劳永逸。

Yeah. I've I've said I've realized this a bunch of years ago that humility, gratitude, these words get thrown around a lot, but it's not something you achieve. It's stomach crunches. You know, you've gotta, or stretching. Yeah.

必须持续练习，因为人性使然，现代媒体更是如此——打开任何设备或电视，我们就被设计成不断接收坏消息。所以你说得对。单就事业而言，你就有太多值得感恩的事。听说有人为你的自传写推荐语——我很喜欢那本书，所以也写了评语。

You gotta do it every day, or every other day, or it doesn't, there's no like, I feel gratitude, check that off. Gotta just keep going back at it because human nature and also modern media isn't I mean, you pick up any device, you turn on the TV, and we are programmed to receive bad news all the time. So yeah, you're absolutely right. But I mean, talk about, you do have a lot to be grateful for in addition to your career, but just if you were looking at your career, would say, I said this, I heard that people were giving blurbs for your book, your autobiography, which I really loved. And so I wrote on it.

我实在想不出还有谁的职业轨迹比鲍勃·奥登科克更迷人、更难以预测。这话发自真心，因为我认识你的时候——你只有一件夹克，那件皮夹克和眼镜，整个人充满锐气。

I'm hard pressed to think of anyone who's had a more fascinating, unpredictable, like, career arc than Bob Odenkirk. And I meant it because I knew you, like, when you were you know, you had one jacket. Yeah. You had that leather jacket and your glasses, and you were very intense.

当时我很自豪能把全部家当塞进一个包里。

I was really proud of myself that I could put everything I owned in one bag.

没错。记得有次去你公寓，和我们所有人住的地方一样超级小——站着不动就能摸到四面墙。你只有棕色皮夹克、牛仔裤、运动鞋和眼镜，这就是你的全部家当。

Yes. Well, I remember going to your apartment. We went to your apartment once, and it was super small, as all of our And apartments just, you could touch all the walls. You didn't have to move. But you had, I can remember, your brown leather jacket, your jeans, your sneakers, your glasses, and I think that's everything you had.

我们曾是流浪汉。但现在我看着你，就像在看那些编排精妙的打斗场景，这些在《无名之辈》里表现得非常出色。

And we were hobos. And but I look at you now, and I was like I was watching the choreographed fight scenes, which are so great in Nobody

做这个很有趣。我要告诉你，这最接近喜剧编剧室的氛围。是的。在我参与过的任何特技打斗中都是如此。他们觉得这最像我们凌晨两点会做的事。首先，你得训练打斗动作。

It's fun to do. And I'm gonna tell you, it's the closest to a comedy writer's room Yes. Is doing a stunt fight in any of the stunt fights I've done. They they it's the most like, oh, this is what we did at 2AM. First of all, you train the fight.

你编排打斗场面。而且我确实为所有这些打斗贡献了想法。

You choreograph the fight. And I did contribute to all these fights.

是啊。

And Yeah.

事实上，公交车上那场打斗，很多部分是我提议开头的，就是他撞到头。嗯。他在前三招里就撞到了头。我撞到我撞到了头。我失手了。

In fact, the bus fight, so much of that, I pitched to start, which is he he bangs his head. Mhmm. He he I've hit my head on the first in the first three moves. I hit I hit my head. I miss.

我必须失手，出拳却打空了。

I have to miss somebody, punch and miss.

因为你的角色也有一段时间不在状态。对吧。

Because you're also, your character has been out of it for a little bit. Right.

是的。而且随着打斗进行我必须逐渐衰弱。我必须变得更慢更弱，而不是更强。然后我被扔出公交车，又回去了。对。

Yeah. And I have to degrade as the fight goes. I have to get slower and weaker, not stronger. And and I get thrown out of the bus, and I go back in. Yeah.

我有机会离开。我可以走掉，但我没有。

I have an opportunity to leave. I could walk away, and I don't.

好的。我不会剧透，但在《无名之辈2》里——我觉得这不算剧透因为我也看过预告片——由于电影里会揭晓的原因，情节发展很自然，但你们最终到了一个类似游乐园的地方。有趣的是，你在那里和家人在一起。所以所有打斗都发生在这个环境中。

Okay. And I'm not gonna give anything away, but in Nobody Too, one and I don't think I'm giving anything away because I've also seen the trailer. For reasons that'll become clear when you see the movie, it's organic, but you end up at kind of like an amusement park kind of place. And what's fun is that that's where you are, you're with your family. And so all the fights are happening in this environment.

我是说，有个场景你把打地鼠游戏融入了尚格·云顿的打斗戏里。这其实有两层意义。一是打斗编排非常出色，观赏性极强。

I mean, there's a scene that you incorporate whack a mole Yes. Into a Jean Claude Van Damme fight scene. And it's so it's two things. It's really good fight choreography. It's really fun to watch.

看着特别解气，因为对我来说打斗戏最关键的元素就是——你得真心讨厌那个挨揍的混蛋。对。不过还有...

It's satisfying because the biggest, most important element to me of a fight scene is you really wanna hate the dick who's getting beaten up. Yeah. You and But part of

那段戏在预告片里也有，

that was and it's in the trailer,

所以我

so I

觉得这不算剧透。当那家伙从背后猛击女孩头部时，我说能不能把动作设计得收敛些？就连真正动手的演员都会自我怀疑——我干嘛要这样？太蠢了。真是个混账行为，根本没必要。

don't think this is a spoiler. When the guy whacks the girl in the back of the head, I said, can you make that just as small as like, he even the guy who let's say the real guy who does that is like, why did I do that? That was dumb. What an asshole. I didn't need to do that.

就像，他压根没考虑过。他根本没在思考。他就是

Like, he didn't even think about it. He wasn't thinking. He just

对着她后脑勺来了一下。

her on the back of the head.

就像，赶紧滚蛋吧你们。对啊。而且这是最微不足道的事。连他自己可能都觉得不该那么做。那真是混蛋行为。

Like, get out of here, you guys. Yeah. And it's the smallest thing. Even he probably thinks I shouldn't have done that. That was a dick move.

但他也...那并不是...我没伤到任何人。没人受伤。她的帽子就这样飞了。可你会觉得，妈的。不行。

But he also it wasn't I didn't hurt anyone. Nobody got hurt. Her hat went like this. That was But you go, fuck. No.

你知道，因为生活中确实会发生这种小事，而你对此无能为力。

You know, because little things like that do happen in your life, and you can't do anything about them.

你必须远离他们。我知道。但最妙的是那是你女儿。没错。我认为真正聪明之处在于它触动了某种本能。

You have to walk away from them. I know. But what was so smart about that is it's your daughter. Yeah. And I think what's really smart about that is it taps into something.

如果你有孩子，不管他们多大。可能是小宝宝，也可能是25岁。如果有人欺负你的孩子，推搡你的孩子，或对孩子做任何事，这会唤醒你内心的某种东西，你会想杀了那个人。所以你想离开，这是小事一桩，你在试图缓和局面。

If you have kids, I don't care how old your kids are. They can be little. They can be, 25. If someone's mean to your kid, or shoves your kid, or does anything to your kid, it awakens something in you, you wanna kill that person. And so you're trying to leave, it's a small thing, You're deescalating.

对，我们经常这么说。让我们冷静下来。你显然，就像，我不想惹麻烦。我要走了。

Right. We use a lot. Let's deescalate. You've clearly, like, I don't wanna have any trouble. I you're leaving.

他打了你女儿一巴掌，这真是个关键瞬间，因为你正往外走，你妻子说了句话。然后我就离开了。你离开时，你知道，这是你的机会。

He swats your daughter, and it's just this great moment because you're walking out, and your wife says And I leave. You leave as, you know, like, it's your opportunity.

我可以离开。

I could leave.

你可以离开。然后你妻子看到你眼中的神情——我在SNL时见过这种眼神，当他们没采用你的小品时。你能看出他不会善罢甘休。那可是你女儿。于是你转身回去大闹一场，而且用的全是游戏厅里的道具，特别有趣。

You could leave. And then your wife says sees there's a look in your eye, which is I've seen that look back at SNL when they didn't put your sketch on. And and you you're I'm gonna try and let and you can see he's not gonna let this go. They just it's your daughter. And you go back in and clean house, and it's but using all the stuff that's in an arcade, which is really fun.

就是这样

That so

那个被抓娃娃机击中的家伙，这些特技演员太棒了。

guy who gets it with the claw, and I've got a these stunt actors are so great.

是啊。没错。对。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

你看到他演得多真实了吗？看到了。还有那一拳。注意他挨打时的反应，首先他不是简单躲开，而是像这样...对。

Do you see how real he makes that? Yes. And the punch. If you watch how he takes that punch, first of all, there's a thing about, like, he doesn't just clear off. He, like, goes Yeah.

他看起来像是有点实力的。他不是来挨打的。他是个爷们。他一脸懵，刚才发生了什么？对吧。

He's like like like he's got some strength. He's not just here to take a punch. He's a guy. He's like, what just happened? Right.

你知道的，那些家伙真的太厉害了。

You know, like, he those guys are so good.

做这件事真的像我想象中那么有趣吗？

Is it as much fun to do that as I think it is?

是的。

It is.

哦，确实。该死的。

Oh, it is. Damn it.

你会笑到肚子疼。该死的。导演一喊停，所有人都笑翻了。

You laugh your ass off. Damn it. They say cut, everyone laughs.

然后他说，我他妈简直不敢相信。好吧。我得跟你掰扯个事，因为你上过播客。

And he goes, I can't fucking believe that. Alright. I gotta I gotta call you on something because you you were on the pod.

你上过

You were

播客。让我说一句。你现在上播客让我觉得我也算圈内人了，因为你的角色谢利·莱文总是打断别人，我现在对你就是这样，但这很重要。《无人获奖》首映后没人关注时，我邀请你上节目。我超爱那次。

on the pod. Let me say one thing. You were on the pod for now I feel like I'm in because your character, Shelley Levine, talks over people, and I'm doing that to you right now, but it's because it's important. After when nobody won came when the first nobody came out, I had you on. I loved it.

我们做了次超棒的访谈，结束时我说如果你再拍续集，必须让我参演。你当时说，好啊好啊。

We had a great interview, and I said at the end, if you ever make another one, you gotta put me in it. You went, yeah. Yeah.