詹姆斯·L·布鲁克斯

我今天的嘉宾是一位获得过奥斯卡奖的导演和编剧，他创作了《金色池塘》、《玛丽·泰勒·摩尔秀》和《新闻广播》等影视作品。

My guest today is an Academy Award winning director and screenwriter behind such films and TV shows as terms of endearment, the Mary Tyler Moore Show, and broadcast news.

他的最新电影《埃拉·麦凯》目前正在影院上映。

His latest movie, Ella McKay, is in theaters now.

我很高兴他今天能来到这里。

I'm thrilled he's here today.

詹姆斯·L.

James L.

布鲁克斯，欢迎你。

Brooks, welcome.

你可能不记得了，但我还是要提前感谢你，因为你曾经帮我大力推销那些花。

You're not gonna remember this, but I'm gonna thank you upfront because you did me a

卖花这件事真是帮了大忙。

huge selling those flowers.

这就是歌剧

That's how the opera

我当时在卖花。

I was selling flowers.

我当时失明了。

I was blind.

你买了一朵花，然后为我支付了手术费用。

You bought one and then paid for my operation.

哦，等等。

Oh, wait.

那是一部查理·卓别林的电影。

That's a Charlie Chaplin movie.

你为我做了一件了不起的事，而你不会记得这件事，就像你为我做的其他许多好事一样。

Now you did a great thing for me, and you won't remember this in addition to other many great things, that you've done for me.

当我还在《辛普森一家》当编剧时，他们突然宣布一个完全不为人知的人将接替戴维·莱特曼。

When I was a writer on the Simpsons and out of nowhere, they announced this complete unknown was going to be taking over for David Letterman.

他的名字叫康南·奥布莱恩。

His name is Conan O'Brien.

没人知道该如何反应。

No one knew how to react.

这太疯狂了。

This is insane.

不知怎么的，他们只是在随便找些引语，结果居然找到了你。

And somehow, they they were just looking for any quote, and they got to you somehow.

他们说：‘《辛普森一家》、詹姆斯·L·布鲁克斯，你觉得这事儿怎么样？’

And they said, well, Simpsons, James l Brooks, what do you think of this?

而你说：‘我一见到康南·奥布莱恩，就知道他有一天会接替大卫·莱特曼主持深夜节目。’

And you said, the moment I met Conan O'Brien, I knew that he would one day replace David Letterman as the host of late night.

这真是个特别好笑的笑话，但谢天谢地，媒体根本没有幽默感。

Now that's a really funny joke, but thank god the media had no sense of irony.

很多我

So happens with a lot of things that I

希望是笑话的事情。

hope are jokes.

是的。

Yeah.

有那么多文章都说，当然，詹姆斯·L·布鲁克斯站出来为他辩护，说从我见到他的那一刻起，他就与众不同，我想我靠那句话撑了好几个月。

So many articles that were like, of course, James l Brooks came to his defense and said, from the moment I met him, he was the only one, and I think I survived off that quote for a couple of months.

我觉得我

I think what I

实际上说的是，他不行。

actually said was he can't.

我们和他有合同。

We have him under contract.

你知道吗，其实真有人这么做过。

You know, someone did, actually.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不是你。

It wasn't you.

不。

No.

其实我记得有人来找我，因为你当时还在合约期内。

There was actually, I remember somebody coming to me because because you were under contract.

当这个疯狂的事情发生时，我正在《辛普森一家》工作，突然间，我得到了消息：是的，孩子，就是你了。

I was under contract at the Simpsons when this insane thing happened and out of the blue I mean, I got the word that, yeah, kid, you're it.

当我正在华纳兄弟唱片室的地下室参加剧本重写会议时，接到了一通电话。

When I was at a rewrite session in the basement of the record room at Warner Brothers, A phone call came through.

有人对我说：‘康纳，有人找你。’

Someone said, it's for you, Conan.

我接过电话，是我经纪人加文·波隆，他说：‘你有十二点半的安排。’

I took the phone, and it was my agent, Gavin Polone, and he said, you got 12:30.

我用一种泄气的语气说，因为我早就知道等着我的是什么，我说：‘我知道了。’

And I said, in a deflated tone, because I knew what I was in for, I said, I knew it.

因为我害怕。

And because I was scared.

然后，哇。

And then Wow.

剧情发展下去，我当时还和《辛普森一家》签有合约，还要再干几年。

The drama unfolded, which was, I was under contract at the Simpsons for another couple years.

我记得福克斯有个人说：等一下。

And I remembered someone at Fox said, now hold on a second.

你知道，他得花钱才能解除合约。

You know, he's gotta buy his way out of his contract.

当时我开的是一辆福特Taurus，我至今仍引以为傲。

I was driving a Ford Taurus at the time, which I still own proudly.

哦，天哪。

Oh, man.

是啊。

Yeah.

他们说你得花钱买断合同。

And they said you gotta buy your way out.

但这不是你。

And it wasn't you.

这不是理查德·萨凯。

It wasn't Richard Sakai.

而是福克斯的一位人士说，嘿。

It was some guy at Fox who was like, hey.

等等。

Wait a minute.

但他们有没有来找过你，问你对这个有什么看法？

But did they come to you ever and say, what do you think of this?

没有。

No.

我记得有人告诉我，你知道，因为你知道，你很快就成了团队中的明星。

I remember hearing that somebody told me you know, because, you know, you you were you were quickly a star of the staff.

我的意思是，这事儿发生得太快了，简直疯狂，根本没人料到。

I mean, you I mean, that was that nobody it was it was insane how quickly that happened.

然后有人就说，他从14岁起就一直想要这个。

And and and then somebody said, he's wanted exactly this since he was 14.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

我记得我离开《周六夜现场》后，人在纽约，接到了迈克·里斯和阿尔·让的电话，他们说：听说你有空？

But I remember I I left SNL, and I'm in New York, and I get a call from Mike Reese and Al Jean, and they say, we hear you're available.

你愿意来加入《辛普森一家》吗？

Would you wanna join us at the Simpsons?

那应该是1991年。

And this is '19, '91, I think.

他们说，吉姆·布鲁克斯要来听所有新一季的创意提案。

They said, Jim Brooks is coming in to hear all the pitches for the new season.

于是我开始向你推销点子，而你一直在笑。

And I started pitching you ideas, and you were laughing.

你有着那标志性的、令人难忘的笑声，我高兴极了。

You have that amazing iconic laugh, and I was overjoyed.

然后你答应了其中两个点子，接着阿尔·让说：‘跟他们说说单轨列车的事。’

And then I had you said yes to two of them, and then Al Jean said, tell them about the monorail.

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

我当时就直接提出了这个点子。

I just pitched it then.

哇。

Wow.

我说，这是我第一次进入这个会议室。

And I said, this is my first time in

这个房间。

the room.

这是《辛普森一家》最经典的剧集之一。

And that's one of the classic Simpsons shows.

嗯，我刚刚有两个点子被采纳了，而我内心有一部分，我不知道，是天主教爱尔兰裔的，别太过分了。

Well, I had just had two ideas accepted, and my there's a big part of my, I don't know, Catholic Irish Catholic, don't push it.

你只能这样了。

Just you got to.

这会惹他生气的，因为太奇怪了。

This is gonna anger him because it's weird.

我向你提出了单轨列车的点子，你笑得特别开心。

And I pitched you monorail, and you laughed really hard.

直到今天，向你提案并看到你高兴，仍然是我演艺生涯中最棒的日子之一。

And that was my one of my great days in show business to this day was pitching to you and having you be happy.

哦，天啊。

Oh, man.

听到你那标志性的笑声，而我当时并不知道，我小时候在电视上早就听过这个笑声了。

And hearing that famous laugh, a laugh that unbeknownst to me I had heard on television growing up.

你那标志性的笑声，你自己在看《玛丽·泰勒·摩尔秀》或《出租车》的时候能听到吗？

That famous laugh of you that you can do you hear it yourself when you watch Mary Tyler Moore Show or Taxi?

你

Do you

听得到自己吗？

hear yourself?

我听得到。

I do.

是啊。

It's yeah.

做。

Do.

最近它确实有一种回声感，但没有。

There's a there's a there's a sort of an echo quality that's attached to it recently, but no.

是的。

Yeah.

我听得到。

I do.

我的意思是，太糟糕了。

I I mean, and terrible.

你知道，我曾经在看喜剧电影时，别人因为我的笑声太大而转过头来。

I you know, I've had people turn around during watching a comedy movie, and my laugh bothered them so much.

他们因为我在看喜剧时笑出声，就回头给我白眼。

They turned around giving me dirty looks for laughing at a comedy.

是的。

Yeah.

你还记得德尼罗在电影院里那个著名场景吗？

It is remember De Niro, that famous scene in the movie theater?

凯特·菲儿，他在那里非常烦人地大笑。

Kate Kate Fear, where he's being incredibly obnoxious and laughing.

我的意思是，你有着一段疯狂的职业生涯。

I mean, you have had an insane career.

你取得了如此辉煌的成功，我想从头开始聊起，你最早是出演《我的三个儿子》或《安迪·格里菲斯秀》这类节目。

You've been so spectacularly successful, and I thought I'd start at the beginning, which is you've done all these iconic shows, revolutionary shows, movies, and you start out working on shows like My Three Sons or Andy Griffith Show.

我在想，我妈妈，那辆车。

And I was wondering My mother, the car.

我妈妈，那辆车。

My mother, the car.

一辆著名的车。

A famous the car.

一辆著名的我

A famous I

如果你记得，讲的是一个男人，他母亲去世后，化身为一辆会说话的车。

I if you recall, it's about man whose mother dies and comes back as a talking car.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这不是我的主意。

Wasn't my idea.

我希望是。

I wish it was.

雪莉·范戴克是主角吗？

Is Sherry Van Dyke the star?

谁是那个谁是

Who was the who was

我觉得是主角。

the I think it star.

是的。

Yes.

嗯。

Yeah.

我想可能是杰里·范戴克是这部剧的主角。

Think I it was Jerry Van Dyke maybe was the star of it.

而且它是个著名的失败之作。

And it's it was a famous bomb.

我不知道你有没有听说过，但它是个著名的失败之作。

I don't if you have they or told you, but it's a famous bomb.

像我一样出名。

Famous as me.

我从来不知道这件事。

I never I never knew that.

没有。

No.

我小时候。

When I was growing up

我觉得它有点中庸。

I I think of it as a sort of moderate.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我在这里。

I'm here

来告诉你们。

to tell you.

我来这里是为了告诉您，先生。

I'm here to tell you, sir.

炸弹。

Bomb.

那是个著名的，是的。

It was a famous Yeah.

就是这样。

There you go.

标志性的炸弹。

Iconic bomb.

你做的每一件事都很有标志性。

Everything you do is iconic.

但这次是这样，我一直在看这些早期的节目，心想，好吧。

But this was and I was I was looking at these early shows and thinking, okay.

当然，你后来还出演了《米拉盖拉·摩尔》、《出租车》和《罗达》。

You go on to do, of course, Miragella Moore and Taxi and Rhoda.

所有这些作品都让你成为我心目中七十年代和八十年代电视界最顶尖、最杰出的演员之一，还有《辛普森一家》。

All these just like, you are, I think, the best of the very best of nineteen seventies and eighties television, Simpsons.

然后你出演了《金色池塘》，这部电影直到今天，我和妻子已经看了几百遍，总是恳求任何人和我们一起再看一遍，因为它太棒了，还有《广播新闻》，你的履历简直疯狂，感觉像是在骗人。

And then you do terms of endearment, which to this day is a movie my wife and I watch hundreds of times and beg anyone to watch with us again because it's so amazing and broadcast news, and it's just it's predict your your resume is madness and feels like a fraud.

你这是编出来的吧。

Like, you've made this up.

这一定是人工智能的发明。

This is an invention of AI.

你在《安迪·格里菲斯秀》中学到了什么？

What were you learning on The Andy Griffith Show?

你在那些早期节目中学到了什么？

What were you learning on those early shows?

他们教会了你什么？

What did they teach you?

我认为我从中学到的最大教训是：我或许能挺过来。因为我从纽约一份我很喜欢的新闻撰稿工作来到加州，那是在其中一个电视网工作。

That that I might survive is is is the big lesson I think I got out of it because I came out of here to I came out to California from a job I really liked as a news writer in New York, for one of the networks.

事情一直不太顺利，我不断地出错。

Things had been you know, I had messing up pretty continually.

然后我得到了这份工作，而我没有大学文凭——但这份工作本该要求你有大学文凭，当时我在CBS当引座员。

And then think I got this job without being a college graduate that you're supposed to be a college graduate, which is was an usher at CBS.

做这份工作本该有大学文凭，因为它就像一个实习岗位。

You're supposed to be a college graduate for that job because it was a Like an internship.

必须一步步往上爬。

Had to on the ladder.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

因为我的姐姐认识那个协助招聘引座员的人，所以我得到了这份工作。

And because my sister knew the person who assisted the person who hired the ushers, I got the job.

当我回过头来看时，这真的太荒谬了，因为如果没有发生那件事，一切都不会发生。

And and it's so nuts when I mean, when you look back, because nothing would've happened unless that happened

嗯。

Yeah.

事情就是这么发展的。

The way the way it worked out.

因为想想运气在其中所起的作用，总是觉得很不可思议。

Because then I mean, it's always nuts to think how luck plays a part.

然后，当那些承担更好职位的人（尽管在整体体系中只是小职位）去度假时，引座员团队就会顶替他们的临时工作。

And then the usher staff filled in for sort of minor jobs when the when the person who had the the better job, the minor job, though, the scheme of things, went on vacation.

我替CBS新闻的一位抄写员兼前台助理顶班，而他再也没有从假期回来。

And I filled in for somebody who was a copy boy desk assistant at CBS News, and and he didn't come back from vacation.

那就是我的转机。

And and it was just that was the break.

他是在海上失踪了吗？

Was he lost at sea?

真奇怪。

Weird.

听起来太不祥了。

It sounds so ominous.

嗯，他去世了。

Well, he died.

是的。

Yeah.

你后来做了什么？

What did you do

对他？

to him?

你做了什么很清楚。

It's clear what you did.

那就是你与魔鬼交易的开始。

That's where your deal with the devil starts.

这段非同寻常的职业生涯。

This unprecedented career.

所以你开始这种写作，然后在某个时刻，你必须说，好吧。

So you start that kind of writing, and then at some point, you have to say, alright.

电视写作是一个可能性。

Television writing is a possibility.

我从未看过。

I never saw it.

我从未把它当作一种可能性。

I I never saw it as a possibility.

我我从来没有想过这会是一个可能。

I I I never saw it as a possibility.

我以前在一家电台工作时认识的一个人，后来去了这里一家独立纪录片公司，他给了我一份工作。

Somebody I I worked with when I had a job at a radio station, ended up in a doc independent documentary house here, and he offered me a job.

我接受了，这意味着我离开了人生中第一份稳定的工作——CBS新闻部的职位。

And I took it, which was leaving the first secure thing I had in my life, which was a job at CBS in the news division.

然后我来到这里，六个月后就被解雇了。

And then I came out and I was laid out laid off six months after I got here.

这并不是说我一直想当作家。

It's not like I always wanted to write.

我一直在写，但从未想过能以此为职业。

I always wrote with no notion that I could do it as a profession.

我从未认真地想过这一点。

Never honestly never occurred to me.

我的目标主要是活下去。

I mean, it was my ambition was primarily to survive.

我的意思是，没错。

I mean, that Yeah.

就是这样。

That was it.

我们这些纪录片制作人个个都邋里邋遢的，那年除夕夜我去参加了一个派对。

And we were we were grubby lot as as documentary makers, and I went to a a party on New Year's Eve.

我们当时正一副邋遢样，这时一个穿着燕尾服的高大英俊的男人走了进来，那是艾伦·伯恩。

And and we were there being grubby, and a and a tall, handsome man walks in in a tuxedo, and it's Alan Byrne.

他当时有五档正在播出的喜剧节目。

And he was he had five shows that he had created, comedy shows on the air at that time.

他问我。

And he said asked me.

他问：‘你做什么工作？’

He said, what do what do you do?

我说：‘我想写东西。’

And I said, well, I I wanna write.

他给我找了一份工作。

And he got me a job.

他就只知道这些。

That's what he knew.

他没有读过任何东西，也没做别的。

He didn't read anything or anything else.

他就是这么一个善良的人。

He was just he was just that sweet a guy.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以我们啊。

And so we yeah.

于是他给我安排了一个任务，然后，你知道的，事情就开始顺利了。

So he got me an assignment, and then, you know, things started to work.

你知道吗，有些这些早期的节目，比如《安迪·格里菲斯秀》，我至今觉得最好的剧集依然充满魔力，因为那是角色喜剧。

You know, it's interesting that some of these shows, these early shows like Andy Griffith Show, the best episodes are still magical to me, and it's because it's character comedy.

我在想，某个时候你一定意识到，这并不是快速堆砌笑料。

And I'm thinking at some point, you must have learned it's it's not rapid fire jokes.

你职业生涯的一个标志就是以这种方式为角色写作。

One of the hallmarks of your career has been writing that way within characters.

我想是的。

I guess.

等等。

Wait a minute.

我这是基于

I'm basing this off of

嘿。

Hey.

你活着就会学到东西。

You you live and learn.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I'm saying?

等一下。

Wait a minute.

一分钟。

A minute.

有人把这家伙说的话记下来。

Somebody write down what that guy said.

等一下。

Wait a minute.

我刚去找尤达，对他说：尤达，我听说没有‘尝试’这回事。

I just came to Yoda and said, Yoda, I heard there is no try.

只有去做。

There's just do.

你什么意思？

What mean you?

谁说的？

Who say?

你跟谁说话？

Who you talk to?

随便吧，我想。

Whatever, I guess.

现在就是这种感觉。

That's what it feels like right now.

好吧。

Okay.

别管那个了。

Forget that.

我还是回到讲笑话吧。

I'm going back to just jokes.

你知道吗，你人生中一个巨大的转折点是《玛丽·泰勒·摩尔秀》，你创作了这个节目，还做了提案

You know, it's funny because huge turning point in your life, Mary Tyler Moore Show, a show that you create, and you did the pitch

和艾伦·伯恩斯一起。

With Alan Burns.

嗯。

Yeah.

和艾伦·伯恩斯一起。

With Alan Burns.

但你当时是向谁提案的？玛丽·泰勒·摩尔在场吗？

But did you who'd you pitch it to, and was Mary Tyler Moore in the room when you pitched it?

我之前做过一档节目，《222房间》，没错。

I had I had, done a show, Room 222 Yep.

那就是《爱》那档节目。

Which was Love that show.

艾伦和我是在那档节目里认识的。

Alan and I met on that show.

格兰特·廷克尔，嗯。

And Grant Tinker, was the Mhmm.

他是福克斯的副总裁，也是玛丽·泰勒·摩尔的丈夫，每次提到他的名字，他都是我遇见过的最好的老板。

Was the vice president at Fox and was married to Mary Tyler Moore and was every time you mention his name was the best boss that ever happened.

是的。

Yeah.

他救了我们的命。

Saved he saved our rear ends.

他，我的意思是，他对于支持编剧来说太棒了。

He he I mean, he he was amazing in his supportive writers.

简直太棒了。

Just crazy great.

我们，我的意思是，我们都喜欢他。

We all I mean, we all loved him.

他是个神奇的人。

He was a magic man.

我们向CBS推销了《海上莫里森》。

We we pitched to CBS for the Maritime Morrison.

我们推销了一个糟糕的点子。

We pitched a bad idea.

我的意思是，我们最初的想法是个糟糕的点子。

I mean, our first idea was a bad idea.

还有我父亲，那辆车。

And My father, the car.

所以你们提了一个糟糕的点子。

So you pitch a bad idea.

那场提案会简直太棒了，因为现场摆成了一个半圆形。

And, it was it was an amazing pitch session because there were, like, a semicircle.

就像你拍一部糟糕的科幻电影那样，围着一圈椅子，坐满了人。

Like, you do it for a psych like, a bad science fiction movie, a semicircle of chairs with all these people in it.

当时负责节目制作的负责人就在中间，这可是真事。

And the the head of program this is a true story.

节目负责人当时在场，我们的第一个想法是，她刚离了婚，正从离婚中走出来。

The head the head of programming in the middle of it, and we our first idea was that she'd be divorced and coming off a divorce.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那个家伙真的说，人们不喜欢三样东西。

And the the guy actually said, there are three things people don't like.

关于离婚的故事。

Stories about divorce.

我发誓他真的这么说，因为我们剧中有个罗达角色，你知道的，罗达·摩根斯特恩。

I swear to god he said this because we had a Rhoda character in it, you know, Rhoda Morgenstern.

关于离婚、犹太人和胡子的故事。

Stories about divorce, Jews, and mustaches.

我简直没法相信，你根本编不出这种事。

I cannot make it you couldn't make this up.

对吧？

Right?

天啊。

Oh my god.

他说这话的时候，正看着我——一个留着胡子的犹太人。

He's looking at me, a Jew with a mustache as he says it.

那真的在时间和空间中发生了。

That really happened in time and space.

好吧。

Okay.

那真的发生了。

That actually happened.

是的。

Yes.

那家伙说这话时正看着我的脸。

The guy was looking at my face saying that.

所以格兰特进去了，而我们根本不知道。

So Grant Grant went in, and and and and and we never knew it.

他只是说：等我一下。

He just said, wait for me.

他出来了。

He came out.

他看起来有点生气，而他刚刚用了自己那点分量来救了我们的命。

He looked a little angry, and he had he had just, you know, used the weight that he had to save our asses.

难以置信。

Unbelievable.

所以你做了这个节目，这很有趣。

So you do this show, and it's interesting.

回顾过去，人们说，《玛丽·泰勒·摩尔秀》是革命性的。

In retrospect, people say, Mary Tyler Moore's show was revolutionary.

她是单身。

She's single.

这是一个以这位女性为主角的节目。

It's a show based about this woman.

她有工作。

She has a career.

她并没有

She she doesn't have

她没有方向盘。

a She has no steering wheel.

她没有方向盘。

She has no steering wheel.

她有个爱说俏皮话的，但没有爱说俏皮话的孩子。

She has a wisecracking there's no wisecracking kid.

没有，你知道，她

There's no, you know She

留着胡子。

has a mustache.

她留着胡子。

She has a mustache.

她秘密地是犹太人。

She's secretly Jewish.

莫恩斯坦。

Mornstein.

但人们现在谈论它具有革命性，而你在制作时从未这样看待过。

But people talk about it now being revolutionary, and you never saw it that way while you were making it.

你只是在制作一档节目。

You were just making a show.

对吗？

Correct?

在某个时刻，我们知道我们正在正确的时间制作了正确的节目，因为那正是当时女性普遍经历的事情。

And and at a certain point, we knew that we were making the right show at the right time because it was just sort of what was happening to to women in general then.

所以是时机，你知道的，那种你无法自己创造的东西，恰好对了。

So it was the timing, you know, the thing that you you can't create yourself, just was right.

对。

Right.

巧合的是，那正是电视史上唯一一次新任电视总裁上任的时期，他上任后的第一件事就是取消了一批排名前20的节目，因为那些都是田园牧歌式的《裙摆边缘》《比佛利山庄》之类的节目。

And and coincidentally, it was a time when the only time in the history of television when a new president of television came over, and the first thing he did was cancel a bunch of top 20 shows because they were all those bucolic petticoat junction, know, Beverly Hillsdale shows.

而他在这些节目大获成功时取消了它们。

And he canceled them when they were enormously successful shows.

以前从未发生过

It's never happened before

之后也再没发生过。

or since.

你今天很难想象，当时CBS可能有九部剧集位列前20名，他们简直在西部剧上大获全胜。

It wouldn't you can imagine today, I think, at the time, CBS had maybe nine of the top, you know, 20 shows or they were just killing it with westerns.

公司总裁曾听闻一个传言，说他妻子对这种田园牧歌式的喜剧感到羞耻，觉得它很无聊。

And the president of the company said, I've always heard this rumor that it was wife who was embarrassed by this bucolic comedy and and thought that it was lame.

我不知道这是否属实，但他上任了。

I don't know if that's true, but, he came in.

他说，把所有这些剧都取消了吧，你能想象吗？

He said, let's get rid of all of these, which can you imagine?

那些都是极其成功、收视率最高的剧集。

Enormously successful, highest rated shows.

是啊。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

然后取消了

And got rid of

全部取消，彻底重塑了CBS的定位。

all of them and put a new complete new stamp on what CBS was all about.

但我一直觉得

But I've always been

半年前，嗯。

And a half year earlier Mhmm.

他推出了首批节目之一，那就是《全家福》，在他打造新CBS的过程中。

He had one of the first shows to come out of that was All in the Family as as as he built a new CBS.

然后在最后一刻，我们原本处在《玛丽·泰勒·摩尔秀》的死亡时段，但他把我们调整到《全家福》之后，否则我不认为我们能成功。

And then at the last minute, were we in a death time period with the Mary Tyler Moore Show, and he changed us and put us behind on the family, or else I I don't think we it would've happened.

对。

Right.

我觉得我们会迷失方向。

I think we would've been lost.

我想你说过没人会，当然了，你可能会告诉我。

I think you said no one and, again, you'll tell me.

我从来没说过那话。

I never said that.

任何打算制作一部革命性电视节目的人，都不会这么做。

Anyone who sets out to make a revolutionary TV show isn't going to.

嗯。

Yeah.

我的意思是，嗯。

I mean yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我觉得《教室222》这部剧，因为它是第一部由黑人主演的剧集，也是第一部拥有两位主要黑人角色的剧集。

I mean, I think I think with room room two twenty two, because it was, I think, the second show to have a black lead, the first show to have two main black characters.

你知道的？

You know?

所以，你知道，那种感觉真的很棒。

So that was you know, that that felt good.

你清楚自己在做这件事。

You knew you were doing it.

你知道这件事正在发生。

You knew it was happening.

但这个，你知道，绝对没料到会这样。

And but this, you know, certainly didn't see it coming.

我记得看《教室222》时注意到，这些角色和以往高中学生形象很不一样——通常我们看到的高中学生都是穿着字母运动衫的男孩，感觉特别像奥兹·纳尔森、里基·纳尔森那种风格。

I remember at Room 222 seeing that and noticing the difference that these did seem as you know, usually when high school students were served up to us, it was, you know, guys in Letterman sweaters, and it was it it felt very much like Ozzy Nelson, Ricky Nelson kind of stuff.

但这部剧里的人物，却像是我身边认识的人。

And this felt like people I knew.

我当时还没上高中。

I wasn't in high school.

我想是1969年，所以这部剧播出时我才六岁左右。

I think it's 1969, so I was about six years old when that show came out.

但我记得当时觉得，这些角色就像我生活中见到的人，感觉很真实。

But I remembered thinking, these feel like people I see in my life, and they feel authentic.

我甚至可能都不知道‘真实’这个词，但对我来说，它就是很真实。

I I didn't even probably I didn't know the word authentic, but it felt real to me.

这部剧的导演兼制片人吉恩·雷诺兹，当我们为他工作时，他总是不断把我送回高中，反复让我回去。

The director producer of the show, Gene Reynolds, who was you know, when we were working for him, and he kept on sending he kept on sending me back to the high school, kept on sending me back.

我已经完成了调研。

I'd I'd finished research.

我去见他。

I'd go to him.

我说，是的。

I said, yeah.

我明白了。

I got it.

不。

No.

你不懂。

You don't.

回去。

Go back.

我在教室里坐了一阵子，后来有一位老师出现了。

And I sat in classes for a while, and there was a teacher who showed up.

你知道吗？

You know?

我按照他的要求在高中里待着，你知道吗？

And and I and I was hanging at this high school at his insistence and you know?

你遇到麻烦时就这么做。

Do that now when you're in trouble.

你知道吗？

You know?

我正在拍一部电视剧。

I'm working on a TV show.

我不认为你在拍，先生。

I don't think you are, sir.

跟我们一起来。

Come with us.

我以为下雨了。

I thought it was raining.

所以我才穿这件外套。

That's why I'm wearing this coat.

你为什么有这么多糖果？

Why do you have all that candy?

那又是另一个故事了。

Now that's a different story.

我血糖偏低。

I have low blood sugar.

我觉得一个巨大的，你知道的，这也挺有趣的。

I think a huge you know, it's interesting too.

那是电视行业真正有领导力的时代，你知道的，像格兰特·廷克这样的人是谁？

This was an era when you feel like there was real leadership in television, real you know, people like Grant Tinker Who?

谁？对。

Who Yeah.

他们有品位，愿意冒险，而不仅仅是为了追随最新的潮流。

Had taste and would go out on a limb, and they weren't just trying to follow the latest trend.

当我上大学并在幽默杂志《疯狂杂志》工作时，我几乎整天都在那里。

When I was in college and working on the humor magazine, the Lampoon, I was there all the time.

我几乎住在那栋楼里，因为我对喜剧着了迷。

I practically lived in that building because I was obsessed with comedy.

有一天晚上，有人敲门，我打开了门。

And one night, there was a knock at the door, and I opened the door.

穿着双排扣西装的是格兰特·廷克尔，他正和布兰登·塔塔科夫站在一起。

And there, in a double breasted suit, is Grant Tinker, and he was standing with Brandon Tartakoff.

哇。

Wow.

他们当时在哈佛参加某个活动，看到了这栋楼，心想：哦，肯定有一些有趣的作家从这里出来。

And they were doing some event at Harvard, and they saw this building, and they knew, oh, you know, some funny writers are coming out of that place.

他们只是想来看看，于是敲了敲门。

And they just wanted to see it, so they knocked on the door.

我开了门，他们请求参观一下。

And I opened the door, and they asked for a tour.

我当时大概19岁，带着他们参观了整栋楼，展示了所有地方，回答了他们所有问题，还鼓起勇气在途中说了几个俏皮话。

I was 19, I think, and I just led them around the building and showed them everything and answered all their questions and worked up the nerve to make a couple of quips along the way.

当他们走出门时，我记得布兰登，格兰特·廷克尔看起来就像《赌城风云》里走出来的人。

And then, as they walked out the door, you know, I remembered Brandon, Grant Tinker looked like someone out of Guys and Dolls.

他穿着一套细条纹西装。

He had, like, a pinstripe suit.

你知道吗？

You know?

但我带他们参观了整个地方，然后我送他们到前门，我记得布兰登·塔塔科夫说：‘康纳，你真是个有趣的人。’

But I led them around, and then I, you know, took them to the front door, and I remember Brennan Tartakoff just saying like, well, Conan, you're a funny guy.

我想我靠这句话得意了好多年。

I think I lived off that for a decade.

你后来有没有在进入电视行业后告诉过他们这件事？

Did you ever tell them that after you had arrived in television?

我不记得有告诉过他们。

I don't think so.

我的意思是，我跟罗伯特·斯迈尔一起做过一个试播集，后来又和布兰登·塔塔科夫做了一个试播集。

I mean, I did a pilot with with Robert Smile when I did a a pilot with Brennan Tartakoff.

我不确定我是否在那几次奇妙的会面中抓住了机会。

I don't know that I took the chance in our one or two Amazing.

这些会面的对象都是真正有才华、有品位、有洞察力的人，我觉得现在这样的人太少了。

Meetings with And these were people with real talent and taste and sensibility, and I think that's in short supply these days.

现在有太多人感到恐惧，不仅在电视行业，电影行业也是如此。

So many people are running scared in not just television, but film.

这些人纷纷躲藏起来，我不知道我们是否还能再见到他们那样的人。

These people are running for cover that it's I don't know if we'll see they're like again.

那些人是数据。

People that Data.

数据。

Data.

对。

Yeah.

那是什么？

What's that?

那就是数据。

It was data.

那都是你知道的，这些都发生在数据出现之前。

It was all you know, that these are this is before data.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

嗯。

Yeah.

意思是，他们有自己的东西，但非常原始。

Mean, they had their thing, but it was very rudimentary.

不。

No.

现在我们有了真正的计算机，告诉我们我们不喜欢犹太人、胡子或离婚。

Now we have actual computers that tell us we don't like Jews, mustaches, or divorce.

结果证明他们是对的。

Turns out they were right.

我不明白我们为什么那么抗拒。

I don't know why we fought it so hard.

我对玛丽·泰勒·摩尔非常好奇，因为她在我生活中扮演了重要角色。

I'm very curious about Mary Tyler Moore because she, she played a big part in my life.

因为当我刚接手深夜秀时，出于我至今仍不明白的原因，人们质疑我：这个孩子不行。

Because when I first got my late night show, for reasons I still didn't understand, and I was under fire for this this kid doesn't have it.

他是谁？

Who is he?

他看起来很笨拙。

He seems awkward.

玛丽·泰勒·摩尔是我的第二位嘉宾。

Mary Tyler Moore was my second guest.

她是第二期节目的第一位嘉宾，之后经常回来，是一位极其出色的脱口秀嘉宾。

She was the guest on the first guest on the second show, and then came back routinely and was an incredible talk show guest.

当然，我简直不敢相信，我竟然坐在这里，和一个曾经通过电视出现在我面前的人交谈——当年我在马萨诸塞州布鲁克莱恩的厨房里，看着黑白电视里的《迪克·范·戴克秀》，吃着母亲放在碗里的火腿片。

And, of course, I couldn't believe that I was sitting here talking to someone who was coming through my television, Dick Van Dyke show, on a black and white TV in my kitchen in Brookline, Mass, and I'm eating bologna strips my mother put in a bowl, and I'm watching this person.

什么？

What?

是的。

Yeah.

我正在受惩罚。

I was being punished.

我当时吃的是战时配给，但那在当时已经是一顿大餐了。

I was on war rations, but that was a big meal back then.

但我的感觉是，她正看着我，叫着我的名字，这至今仍让我觉得不真实。

But, I mean, it was a big it was a it was a big I I had this feeling of she is making eye contact with me and using my first name, and it still seems unreal to me.

在那档节目里和她合作感觉怎么样？

What was working with her like on that show?

我正试着表达清楚，因为她在节目中做了一件非凡的事，她是节目的大明星。

I'm I'm trying to phrase this so that I can really there's there was an extraordinary thing she did, the the great star of the show.

嗯。

Mhmm.

她运用了自己所有的影响力，却不去彰显权力，而是让整个团队成为一个整体，让每个人都感受到这种氛围。

And she she used all the power she had not to have the power and to be and to make it a company and to make everybody, you know, feel like that.

一个整体。

An ensemble.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，从来不需要担心玛丽会怎么想。

So it was never like, you know, we had to worry what would Mary think.

我的意思是，我们会进行一次彩排。

I mean, you know, we'd have a run through.

我们会试着修正任何需要改进的地方，而她从不来办公室。

We'd try and fix whatever, you know, needed fixing, and and she never came to the office.

我们当时在第七年，我记得我一生中最棒的事是，他们说：趁我们领先的时候退出吧。

We were on we and at seven years, we got I remember the best thing I did in my life is they were saying, let's let's go out while we're ahead.

让我们在第六年就收手吧。

Let's call it a go let's call it a go at six.

我说的是七年。

And I said seven.

所以那就是我刚买了一艘船。

So that was the that was the I just bought a boat.

最好的词。

The best word.

这才是绝佳的动机。

That's the great motivator.

买艘船，你就会再做三个CC。

Buy a boat, and you'll do three more cc's.

而且我从不买，我从不相信趁早收手。

Also, I'd never buy I never believe get out while you're ahead.

不。

No.

如果我买艘船，它会叫‘SS一路沉到底’。

I I if I buy a boat, it's gonna be called the SS Ride It To The Bottom.

但你想要七，我知道她确实在最后一集留了张纸条，或者我认为她留了纸条。

But so so you wanted seven, and I know she did have a note, or I believe she had a note on the final episode.

是的。

Yes.

她很少有几次

One of the few times that she

从来没有。

Never.

第一次。

The first time.

唯一一次。

The only time.

七年。

Seven years.

从未做过。

Never did it.

她从未来过我们的办公室说些什么。

Never came to our office to to to to say something.

这太疯狂了。

It was nuts.

这太疯狂了。

It was nuts.

全国都为我们最后一场拍摄停了下来。

The nation stopped for our final shot.

简直像疯了一样。

It was like crazy.

你做不到。

You can't.

你知道的，那规模真的太疯狂了。

There's I I I you know, it's it was crazy the extent of it.

你还记得当时的收视率或数字是多少吗？

Do you remember the share or the number that it got?

因为那个时代已经过去了。

Because that's an era that has passed.

你知道的。

You know?

超级碗不会再有那样的收视份额了。

The Super Bowl wouldn't get the share of the number.

我不是最后一个。

I'm not the last.

收视率是52%，我总是

Number is 52%, I always

听说是51。

heard it was 51.

是52。

It was 52.

忘了爱荷华州。

Forgetting Iowa.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

不可思议。

Incredible.

所以她当时有一张便条，写在最后一集上，

And so she had but she had a note on the last episode,

是什么？

which was?

大家都已经告别过了，但我们还没为她告别。

That everybody had said their farewell, and we hadn't done it for her.

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

而且我真的，我真的无法想象，我也说不清楚，但后来我们还是做了。

And and I don't I don't can't imagine I I don't I can't explain it, but then we did it.

这是我和我参与过的最棒的时刻之一。

And and it's one of the best moments I've ever been part of.

是大家一起慢慢离开的那个场景吗？

Is it the shuffling out together?

不是。

No.

哦，那个是在片场拍的。

Oh, that was that was on the set.

那很棒。

That was great.

我们当时在排练，他们可以聚在一起拥抱，大家都在道别，

We were we were running it, and they could get into a group hug at They're all saying goodbye,

结束了。

it's over.

他们抱成一团。

They're in a group hug.

他们都在互相拥抱。

They're all hugging each other.

我想有六个人在互相拥抱，而且他们都哭了。

Six, I think, six people hugging each other, and they're crying.

他们说在拥抱的时候有人带了纸巾。

And they said there was something where who had Kleenex in the hug.

在化妆时，我们说不行。

And in dress, we said, no.

不行。

No.

纸巾放在桌子上。

The Kleenex is on the table.

所以互相拥抱的这群人会走向桌子。

So the group hugging each other will shuffle over to the table.

是的。

Yes.

哦，这真是，我记得

Oh, it's such a I mean, I remember

那是离开的方式。

was the way to go out.

那就是离开的方式。

It was just it was just the way to go out.

还有一个著名的片段，玛丽要举办一个派对。

And there was a famous episode where the lights Mary's gonna have a party.

她的派对总是搞砸。

Her parties always go badly.

她说约翰尼·卡森要来参加派对。

She says that Johnny Carson's coming to the party.

当然，约翰尼·卡森是电视界最大的明星。

Of course, Johnny Carson's the biggest star in television.

我们都很兴奋他能来。

We are excited that he's gonna show up.

我们只知道他会参加节目，于是我们就制作了这个节目，因为我们听说他会来。

And all we knew was that he was he would do the show, and then we made that show because we heard that he'd do it.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你们制作这个节目是因为约翰尼·卡森说他会来，但这根本是不可能的。

So so So you made the show because Johnny Carson said he'd do it, which was an impossibility.

他从不做这种事。

He didn't do things.

这和现在不一样，现在每个人无处不在。

It's not like today where everybody's everywhere.

当时你根本不敢相信，美国最著名的人——那个除了《今夜秀》什么都不做的人——居然会现身，而且灯还灭了。

It just was you couldn't believe that the most famous man in America is gonna and who doesn't do anything other than The Tonight Show is gonna show up, and the lights go out.

玛丽的公寓突然停电，然后约翰尼·卡森在黑暗中登场，你只能听到他的声音。

Mary's apartment loses its lights, and then Johnny Carson enters in the dark, and you hear him.

而且你根本看不到他。

And it was You never saw him.

相信。

Believe.

那就是唯一的事。

That was the only thing.

是的。

Yes.

而且你请到了约翰尼·卡森，还敢说

And it was you got Johnny Carson and had the balls to say

太棒了。

That's great.

是的。

Yeah.

你永远都不会。

You're never gonna.

而且你听到了他的声音。

And you heard him.