移民打击行动出了差错。我们了解多少？

今天在明尼阿波利斯，一名移民和海关执法官员开枪射杀了一名女子。

Today in Minneapolis, an immigration and customs enforcement officer shot and killed a woman.

国土安全部称这名女子是一名暴力暴徒，曾试图驾车冲撞执法人员。

The Department of Homeland Security described the woman as a violent rioter who attempted to run over law enforcement officers.

以下是国土安全部部长克里斯蒂·诺姆。

Here's secretary of homeland security, Kristi Noem.

这表明，我们的移民与海关执法局官员和执法人员每天都在遭受袭击。

This goes to show, the assaults that our ICE officers and our law enforcement are under every single day.

这些车辆冲撞行为属于国内恐怖主义行为。

These vehicle rammings are domestic acts of terrorism.

但明尼阿波利斯市长、民主党人雅各布·弗莱表示，视频呈现的是另一番景象。

But the mayor of Minneapolis, Jacob Fry, a democrat, says the video paints a different picture.

我本人亲眼看到了汽车驶离时枪声响起的视频。

I myself saw a video of the shots being fired as the car was driving away.

我可以告诉你们，所谓这仅仅是自卫的说法，完全是胡说八道。

What I can tell you is the narrative that this was just done in self defense is a garbage narrative.

这不对。

That is not true.

把这看作是一次失控的移民打击行动。

Consider this an immigration crackdown gone wrong.

我们知道了什么？

What do we know?

来自NPR，我是玛丽·露易丝·凯利。

From NPR, I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

这是来自NPR的《考虑一下》。

It's consider this from NPR.

现在是周三东部时间晚上6点过一点，以下是我们的了解。

It is a little past 6PM eastern on Wednesday, and here's what we know.

周三早上，在明尼阿波利斯，一名37岁的女性被一名联邦移民官员开枪打死。

On Wednesday morning, in Minneapolis, a 37 year old woman was shot dead by a federal immigration officer.

关于这起枪击事件的细节存在激烈争议。

The circumstances around the shooting are hotly disputed.

国土安全部部长克里斯蒂·诺埃姆表示，这名女子袭击了联邦移民官员，并试图用车辆撞击他们。

Homeland security secretary Christy Noem said the woman attacked federal immigration officers and attempted to ram them with her vehicle.

国土安全部的一份声明称，一名移民与海关执法局官员因担心自身生命安全和公众安全而开枪自卫。

A DHS statement says an ICE officer feared for his life and for public safety and fired defensive shots.

明尼苏达州的政界人士观看了事件视频后，强烈反驳了这一说法。

Minnesota politicians who have seen the video of the incident strongly contradict this account.

我们现在连线明尼苏达公共广播电台的记者马特·塞皮克，他正在明尼阿波利斯。

Joining us from Minneapolis is reporter Matt Sepik of Minnesota Public Radio.

嗨，马特。

Hey there, Matt.

你好，玛丽·露易丝。

Hi, Mary Louise.

先说说这里的背景情况。

Start with the just the the backdrop here.

移民与海关执法局的人员已经到场。

ICE has been on the ground.

他们去年就在明尼阿波利斯。

They've been in Minneapolis last year.

今年年初又出现了。

Now again at the beginning of this year.

那么请从那时的情况更新到今天早上发生的事。

So update from there to what happened this morning.

视频显示一辆深红色的本田SUV堵住了波特兰大道。

Video shows a maroon Honda SUV blocking Portland Avenue.

这是明尼阿波利斯市中心以南的一条单行道。

This is a one way street south of Downtown Minneapolis.

联邦特工在视频中命令司机：‘女士，请下车。’

Federal agents are heard telling the driver, ma'am, get out of the car.

一名目击者拍摄的 footage 显示，一名联邦特工绕到车的右侧，再绕到车前。

The footage taken by a witness shows one federal officer walk around the right side of the car and around the front.

片刻之后，另外两名特工走向驾驶座一侧。

Moments later, two other agents walk up to the driver's side.

一人试图打开车门。

One tries to open the door.

此时，司机开始在结冰的路面上倒车。

At this point, the driver begins to reverse on the icy street.

当一名警官抓住车门时，司机开始驾车离开现场，随后一名站在SUV前方的警官似乎向车内开了三枪。

As the officer hangs on the door, the driver begins to drive away from the scene, and then an officer in front of the SUV appears to fire into the car three times.

司机被送往医院后宣告死亡。

The driver was pronounced dead at a hospital.

今天下午的新闻发布会上，明尼阿波利斯警察局局长布莱恩·奥哈拉特将死者描述为一名37岁的白人女性。

At a news conference this afternoon, Minneapolis police chief Brian O'Harratt described the deceased as a 37 year old white woman.

他表示，她并未涉及任何移民执法行动。

He said that she was not the subject of any immigration actions.

这一事件发生之际，国土安全部正在明尼阿波利斯-圣保罗地区加强移民执法，据该部门称，已部署了2000名特工。

This incident comes as the Department of Homeland Security is stepping up immigration enforcement in the Minneapolis Saint Paul area with what the department says is 2,000 agents.

国土安全部部长克里斯蒂·诺姆昨天访问了该地区。

Homeland Security secretary Kristi Noem visited the area yesterday.

好的。

Okay.

那么，特朗普政府怎么说？

And then what is the Trump administration?

他们对今天早上发生的事情有何说法？

What is their account of what happened this morning?

因为到目前为止，他们称这次枪击是正当的。

Because so far, they've said the shooting was justified.

政府官员立即试图掌控舆论走向。

Administration officials immediately tried to take control of the narrative.

在社交媒体上，国土安全部称这名女子是‘暴力暴徒’，并‘将车辆作为武器’。

On social media, DHS called the woman a, quote, violent rioter who, quote, weaponized her vehicle.

该机构称，移民与海关执法局特工是出于自卫开枪。

The agency says the ICE agent fired in self defense.

总统还在其网站上发帖称，这名女子显然是职业煽动者。

The president also posted on his website saying the woman was obviously a professional agitator.

国土安全部部长克里斯蒂·诺埃姆今天在德克萨斯州的一场新闻发布会上就此事接受了记者的采访。

DHS secretary Christy Noem spoke to reporters about the incident during a news conference today in Texas.

这表明，我们的移民与海关执法局官员和执法部门每天都在遭受袭击。

This goes to show, the assaults that our ICE officers and our law enforcement are under every single day.

这些车辆冲撞行为属于国内恐怖主义行为。

These vehicle rammings are domestic acts of terrorism.

我们正在与司法部合作，将此类行为按恐怖主义罪名起诉。

We're working with the Department of Justice to prosecute them as such.

我们将继续保护我们的移民与海关执法局官员，并与其他执法机构合作。

We will continue to protect our ICE officers, and in cooperation with other law enforcement agencies as well.

然而，明尼阿波利斯市长雅各布·弗莱在自己的新闻发布会上明显非常愤怒。

However, Minneapolis mayor Jacob Fry was clearly angry during his own news conference.

今天，他称移民与海关执法局官员的行为鲁莽，并表示诺埃姆对事件的描述与事实不符。

Today, he called the ICE officers' actions reckless and said, Noam's versions of a version of events is not what happened.

在看过自己的视频后，我想直接向大家说明一下。

Having seen the video of myself, I wanna tell everybody directly.

那就是

That is

此外，弗莱用另一个脏话表示，ICE应该离开明尼阿波利斯。

And using another expletive, Fry said ICE should get out of Minneapolis.

他还补充说，特朗普政府正试图制造混乱，当ICE在这里开始执法行动时，他和城市领导人就担心会出现这样的结果。

He added that the Trump administration is trying to sow chaos and that he and city leaders had feared exactly this outcome when ICE started its enforcement push here.

让我们来谈谈其他利益相关方的反应，以便理清我们已知和未知的信息。

Let me ask about reaction from other stakeholders as we try to sort through what we know and what we don't.

你提到明尼阿波利斯警察局局长布莱恩·奥哈拉与市长一同出席了新闻发布会。

You mentioned Minneapolis police chief Brian O'Hara joined the mayor at the press conference.

他还说了什么？

What else did he say?

他说，联邦调查局和明尼苏达州刑事调查局正在调查此事，并补充说，大多数执法机构都会训练其执法人员避免陷入此类必须使用致命武力的境地。

He says the FBI and Minnesota's Bureau of Criminal Apprehension are investigating and added that most law enforcement agencies train their officers to avoid situations like this where they have to use deadly force.

另外，明尼苏达州州长有没有发表意见？

And just quickly, Minnesota's governor, has he weighed in?

是的。

Yeah.

明尼苏达州州长蒂姆·沃尔兹（Tim Walz）也是一位民主党人，他表示正在准备调动明尼苏达州国民警卫队。

Governor Tim Walls, also a democrat, said he is preparing to mobilize Minnesota's national guard.

沃尔兹称，政府的行动危险且炒作过度，对公共安全构成威胁。

Walls called the administration's operations dangerous and sensationalized and a threat to public safety.

我们所看到的是，这种旨在制造恐惧、头条新闻和冲突的治理所带来的后果。

What we're seeing is the consequences of governance designed to generate fear, headlines, and conflict.

这是以真人秀的方式进行治理。

It's governing by reality TV.

而今天，这种鲁莽行为夺走了一条生命。

And today, that recklessness cost someone their life.

来自明尼苏达公共广播电台的马特·塞皮克发回报道。

Reporting there from Matt Cepic with Minnesota Public Radio.

谢谢。

Thank you.

不客气。

You're welcome.

我们还联系到了明尼阿波利斯警察局局长布莱恩·奥哈拉。

We've also reached Minneapolis police chief Brian O'Hara.

欢迎。

Welcome.

嗨。

Hi.

晚上好。

Good evening.

谢谢您邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

你好，局长。

Hi, chief.

这位37岁的女性在医院被宣布死亡。

So the 37 year old woman was pronounced dead at the hospital.

今天下午我在新闻发布会上看到，您称她为白人女性，并非任何移民行动的对象。

I was watching I saw at a news conference this afternoon, you described her as white as not the subject of any immigration actions.

我们这样理解对吗？

Do we have that all right?

因此，我们在现场最初获得的信息保持不变：这是一位中年白人女性，不是任何预先计划的执法行动的目标，她的车辆挡住了道路，随后移民官员与她发生了接触。

So that the information that we had preliminary at the scene remains the same, that this is middle aged white woman who was not the target of a preplanned law enforcement activity, that this is a woman who was her vehicle was blocking the roadway, and then the immigration agents got into an encounter with her.

她不是任何预先计划的执法行动的目标。

She's not the target of any preplanned law enforcement activity.

感谢您澄清这一点。

Thank you for clarifying.

有争议的是她为何被开枪射击。

What what is in dispute is why she was shot.

国土安全部发言人特里西亚·麦克劳克林曾公开表示：'一名ICE官员因担心自己、其他执法人员以及公众的安全，开枪进行自卫。'

Department of Department of Homeland Security spokeswoman Tricia McLaughlin is on record saying, and I quote, an ICE officer fearing for his life, the lives of his fellow law enforcement, and the safety of the public fired defensive shots, end quote.

自卫射击。

Defensive shots.

根据你的判断，这是否属于自卫行为？

Was this an act as far as you can tell of self defense?

我认为，在这个国家，我们期望执法部门进行彻底且专业的调查，调查应依据证据得出合乎逻辑的结论。

Well, I think, you know, very clearly in this country, we expect law enforcement to conduct a full and professional investigation, and that investigation should follow the evidence to its logical conclusion.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因此，就像其他执法使用武力的情况一样，这种情况可能是合法的。

And so, you know, while it is possible, like any other time law enforcement uses force, What's possible, it could be, lawful.

我们应该让调查顺利进行，直至得出合乎逻辑的结论。

We should allow the investigation to run its course to its logical conclusion.

所以你是说要等待调查结果。

So you're saying wait for the investigation.

据我所知，网上流传着一些关于这次枪击事件的视频。

There are videos, as I'm sure you know, videos of the shooting that are circulating online.

一名移民与海关执法局官员似乎向一辆行驶中的车辆前窗开枪。

An ICE officer appears to be shooting into the front window of a moving vehicle.

您看过这些视频了吗，警长？

Have have you seen these videos, chief?

您怎么看这些视频？

What do you make of them?

我知道网上有好几个视频。

I know there's several, videos that are online.

我至少看过其中一个视频，我知道它让社区里的很多人感到非常震惊。

I have seen at least one of those videos, and I know it has been very alarming to a lot of people in the community.

这是一场悲剧。

This is a tragedy.

我认为无论如何都无法回避这一点。

I think there's there's no there's no ways about this.

只要有人失去生命，那就是一场悲剧。

Anytime a person's life is lost, it is tragic.

在执法领域，我们当然期望我们的警员接受培训，尽一切努力缓和局势，避免使用武力，尽可能避免造成人员伤亡。

And, certainly, in law enforcement, you know, we expect our officers to be training and trying to do everything they can to deescalate situations and avoid the use of force and certainly avoid the use the loss of human life whenever possible.

我想问问关于ICE在你们城市的活动情况。

I do wanna ask just about the the ICE footprint in your city.

明尼阿波利斯的官员和州官员，包括州长，都已经发声，市长曾强烈表示ICE应该离开。

Officials in Minneapolis and state officials, the governor, and if Minnesota have been weighing in, the mayor had strong words saying ICE should get out.

我想为你播放一段录音。

I wanna play for you.

我们刚刚采访了明尼苏达州参议员蒂娜·史密斯，一位民主党人。

We just interviewed Minnesota senator Tina Smith, a Democrat.

她在一个小时前在我们的节目中发表了这段话。

She said this on our air, just within the last hour.

当地执法部门根本不知道那些ICE特工就在那里。

The local law enforcement had no idea that those ICE agents were even there.

因此，我认为这些特工正在加剧我社区的公共安全问题，而不是改善公共安全。

And so what I see is that these agents are contributing to worsening public safety in my community rather than improving public safety.

布莱恩·奥哈拉，你对此有何回应？

Brian O'Hara, would you respond to that?

ICE 在帮助还是阻碍您的警员维护城市安全？

Has ICE been helping or hindering your officers in trying to keep your city safe?

嗯，是的。

Well, it's yeah.

在接到有关执法部门遭遇枪击的初步报警后，我很快就赶到了现场。

I responded to that scene myself very shortly after the initial call came in that there were shots fired involving law enforcement.

我看到那里有几十甚至可能上百名联邦特工。

And I saw really dozens and dozens, you know, if if not maybe a few 100 federal agents ultimately at that scene.

因此，我一直以来担心的并不是联邦执法是否发生，而是这种执法行动的具体方式。

And so, you know, the thing that I have been concerned about this entire time, again, is not so much whether or not federal law enforcement is happening, but truly the manner how this enforcement action is being conducted.

我们应当尽一切努力确保，这是我们的职业责任。

We should be doing everything in our power to ensure, our professional responsibility.

好的。

Okay.

也就是说，我们要关注警员在街头执行执法行动的方式，我认为这是一种职业责任。

And that is that, you know, we are paying attention to the manner in which our officers are are performing enforcement actions on the street, and I think that's a professional responsibility.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

明尼阿波利斯警察局局长布莱恩·奥哈拉。

Brian O'Hara as Minneapolis police chief.

谢谢。

Thank you.

本集由迈克尔·莱维特、丹尼尔·奥夫曼和凯伦·扎莫拉制作，音频工程由泰德·米班完成。

This episode was produced by Michael Levitt, Daniel Offman, and Karen Zamora with audio engineering by Ted Meebane.

本集由切丽尔·科利、艾哈迈德·达曼、让内特·伍兹和考特尼·多宁编辑。

It was edited by Cheryl Corley, Ahmad Daman, Jeanette Woods, and Courtney Dorning.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

本节目由NPR出品。

It's considered this from NPR.

我是玛丽·露易丝·凯利。

I'm Mary Louise Kelly.