丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯已息影，他的儿子才刚刚起步

嘿，你好。

Hey there.

我是玛丽·路易丝·凯利。

It's Mary Louise Kelly.

也许很难相信，但你们真的坚持到了现在。

It might be hard to believe, but y'all, made it.

我们快要迎来2025年的尾声了。

We are almost at the end of 2025.

今年新闻事件频发，对NPR和我们的地方电台来说也是艰难的一年。

It has been such a busy year in the news and a tough year for NPR and our local stations.

尽管公共媒体的联邦资金被削减，尽管对新闻自由的攻击持续且加剧，我们依然在这里为你服务。

But despite the loss of federal funding for public media, despite continued and escalating attacks on the free press, we are still here for you.

请记住，NPR将继续无畏无偏地报道新闻。

Consider this, and NPR will keep reporting the news without fear or favor.

我们致力于帮助你理解当天的重要新闻事件。

We're committed to helping you make sense of one of the day's major news stories.

我们现在比以往任何时候都更需要您的支持。

We do need your support now more than ever.

而现在，在年底之前，是捐赠的最佳时机。

And right now before the end of the year is the best time to make your gift.

感谢我们的NPR Plus支持者，他们帮助维持NPR的运作，也感谢所有已经伸出援手捐款的人。

Thank you to our NPR Plus supporters who help sustain NPR and everyone who has already stepped up to donate.

其中包括来自科罗拉多的明迪，她说：我相信独立新闻对健康的民主至关重要。

Now that includes Mindy in Colorado who says, I believe independent journalism is essential to a healthy democracy.

我们需要值得信赖的监督者，能够提出尖锐问题，问责掌权者，并提供不受政治压力影响的基于事实的报道。

We need trusted watchdogs that can ask hard questions, hold those in power accountable, and provide fact based reporting without political pressure.

谢谢你，明迪。

Thank you, Mindy.

我们知道，并非每个公民都能直接参与这类工作，因此我非常自豪能作为所谓的第四权力的一员，代表大家履行这一职责，我们非常感激您的支持。

Now we know not every citizen can have direct access to do this kind of work, so I'm very proud to be a member of the so called Fourth Estate here to do that work on your behalf, and we appreciate your support so much.

您可以通过今天注册NPR Plus来帮助我们继续提出尖锐的问题。

You can help us keep asking the hard questions by signing up for NPR Plus today.

这是一个简单的定期捐款，能让你获得众多NPR播客的专属福利，包括《Consider This》，同时你在收听的同时也在支持公共媒体。

It's a simple recurring donation that gets you perks to a whole bunch of NPR podcasts, including consider this, and you support public media while you listen.

你可以在 +.npr.org 加入我们。

You can join us at +.npr.org.

现在进入今天的节目。

Now to today's show.

八年前，丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯以一则简短声明悄然在电影界投下了一枚炸弹。

Eight years ago, Daniel Day Lewis quietly dropped a bomb on the film world in the form of a short statement.

声明中称：丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯将不再从事演员工作。

Daniel Day Lewis will no longer be working as an actor, it said.

这是一个私人决定，他本人及其代表都不会就此话题再作进一步评论。

This is a private decision, and neither he nor his representatives will make any further comment on this subject.

这则声明之所以令人震惊，部分原因在于戴-刘易斯对表演艺术的极致投入。

Well, the statement was shocking in part because of how dedicated Day Lewis was to his craft.

这是他在2007年接受NPR采访时的片段。

Here he is talking to NPR in 2007.

对我来说，这份工作纯粹是一种乐趣。

For me, the work is really pure pleasure.

我做这份工作是因为我喜欢，而不是因为我觉得需要惩罚自己。

I do the work because I love to do it, not because I feel the need to punish myself.

如果我想惩罚自己，我会做别的事。

I do something else if I needed to punish myself.

我非常喜欢我所做的工作。

I I love to do the work that I do.

这就像一场游戏。

It's a game.

这也令人惊讶，因为他在这方面如此出色。

It was also surprising because he was so good at it.

丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯赢得了创纪录的三项最佳男主角奥斯卡奖，他真正融入了每一个角色，无论是林肯总统

Day Lewis won a record three best actor Oscars, and he really inhabited each role, whether it was president Lincoln

为了让我们拥有这一刻，已经有人流血牺牲。

Blood's been spilled to afford us this moment.

现在。

Now.

现在。

Now.

现在。

Now.

或者当他扮演一个无情的石油勘探者时。

Or whether he was playing a ruthless oil prospector.

有时候，我看着别人，却看不到任何值得喜欢的地方。

There are times when I I look at people and I see nothing worth liking.

或者也许，是这些角色在占据着他。

Or maybe it's that the characters were inhabiting him.

你从零开始。

You start from scratch.

你从一无所有开始。

You begin with nothing.

你把自己尽可能地还原成一个空容器，它可能会被一些有用的东西填满，也可能不会。

You reduce yourself as far as possible to the state of an an empty vessel, which may or may not fill with something that's gonna be useful.

戴斯·刘易斯将其描述为一种沉默的默契。

Day Lewis described it as a silent partnership.

还有什么比毫无顾忌地探索自己内心最阴暗的角落和潜意识更令人自由的呢？

What could be more liberating than to explore with impunity the the darker recesses of one's imagination and and psyche.

我想，这一直对我很有吸引力。

And I I suppose that has always appealed to me.

我通常最感兴趣的是那些与我自身生活截然不同的人生。

And I always am most often intrigued by by lives that seem very far removed from my own.

好吧，尽管已经退休，但丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯在十月出演了一部新电影。

Well, retirement notwithstanding, in October, Daniel Day Lewis appeared in a new movie.

他扮演一个从自己曾经熟悉的世界中抽身，却又被拉回其中的人。

He plays a man who withdraws from the world he once knew and then finds himself pulled back.

请想一想，丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯回归银幕，出演了他儿子执导的电影，讲述的是未竟之事和我们传承下来的东西。

Consider this, Daniel Day Lewis is back in a film directed by his son about unfinished business and about what we passed down.

来自NPR，我是玛丽·露易丝·凯利。

From NPR, I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

人工智能数据中心消耗大量电力，而你可能正在为此买单。

AI data centers use a lot of electricity, and you may be paying for it.

我认为，普通人最终为世界上最有权势的行业提供补贴几乎是不可避免的。

I think it's almost inevitable that ordinary people are gonna end up subsidizing the wealthiest industry in the world.

在最新一期的《星球金钱》播客中，探讨了数据中心如何影响你的电费。

On the latest Planet Money podcast, how data centers might be hijacking your electric bill.

请在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台收听。

Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

这是来自NPR的《请考虑一下》。

It's consider this from NPR.

二十年来，一名男子一直住在英格兰北部的森林里。

For twenty years, a man has been living in the woods in the North Of England.

他拥有生存所需的一切：遮风挡雨的屋顶、罐头食品和成堆的木柴。

He's got everything he needs to survive, roof over his head, cans of food, piles of firewood.

他很孤立。

He's isolated.

他希望保持这样。

He wants to keep it that way.

除了一个人，吉姆，没人知道他在哪儿。

No one knows where he is except for one guy, Jim.

有一天，吉姆不请自来，决心带他回家。

And one day, Jim shows up unannounced, determined to bring him home.

我怎么了？

How did I what?

没有你，我怎么撑过来的？

How did I manage without you?

嗯。

Yeah.

我不会假装我从不想到它，但这就是全部了，吉姆。

I won't pretend I don't think about it from time to time, but this is it, Jim.

这是我的生活。

This is my life.

一定要这样吗？

Does it have to be?

丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯在电影《Animony》中饰演隐居的雷·斯托克，该片由他的儿子罗南·戴-刘易斯执导。

Daniel Day Lewis stars as the reclusive Ray Stoker in the movie Animony, which was directed by his son, Ronan Day Lewis.

父与子于十月来到我们在纽约的演播室。

Father and son joined us in October in our New York studios.

以下是他们的对话。

Here's that conversation.

让我们直接进入故事。

Let's jump straight into the story.

丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯，你的角色雷，正如我所说，已经隐居了二十年，然后突然间，由出色的肖恩·宾饰演的吉姆走进了你的小屋。

Daniel Day Lewis, your character Ray, as I mentioned, has been off the grid for two decades, and then suddenly, this guy Jim, played by the absolutely terrific Sean Bean, walks through the door of your cabin.

我知道你不想透露太多剧情转折，但接下来会发生什么？

I know you don't wanna give too many twists away, but what happens next?

嗯，吉姆，正如我们在故事开头所看到的，他与妻子内萨一起踏上了这次使命。

Well, Jim, as we discover him at the very beginning of the story, embarks on this mission in agreement with his wife, Nessa.

嗯。

Mhmm.

吉姆是我的兄弟，他和内萨一起抚养了一个男孩，这个男孩现在陷入了极大的麻烦，而他们之间有某种联系。

Jem is my brother, and he has raised a boy with Nessa who is currently in a great deal of trouble and there's a connection there.

因此，当他启程来找我时，正如你所说，他的目的是试图找到某种方式，说服我从这个地方回去。

And so when he sets out on the journey to find me, it's with the idea of, as you said, of trying to find some way of convincing me to to come back from this this place.

我之前没意识到你们是兄弟，直到有一个精彩的场景——你们俩在水槽边刷牙，一起漱口吐水。

I didn't realize you two were brothers until there's a great scene where the two of you, you're at the sink, and you're brushing your teeth, and you're rinsing and spitting together.

那一刻我突然想，好吧。

And I suddenly thought, okay.

这两个人要么是室友，要么是兄弟。

These two either were roommates or they're brothers.

他们曾经共用过

They've shared a

水槽。

sink.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

所以我们已经知道，这是一部关于兄弟的电影。

So we've already gotten this is a movie about brothers.

罗南，这当然也是一部关于父子以及我们传承什么的电影。

Ronan, it's also, of course, about fathers and sons and what we pass on.

你在这里想探索什么呢？

What were you trying to explore here?

对。

Yeah.

这很有趣，因为父子之间的那种威胁感悄然浮现了。

It was interesting because the the kind of father son threat of it crept up on us.

我们逐渐意识到，布莱恩必须成为一个真实的人，而不仅仅是兄弟故事边缘的一个注脚。

We kind of realized that Brian had to become a real person and not just this kind of footnote on the periphery of the brother's story.

我认为，当我们第一次创作了他独自在房间里的场景时，这真正打开了他的视角，让人感受到对父母过去生活之谜的深深着迷。

And I think when we first created a scene of him alone in his room, it really opened up his perspective and this sense of the kind of fascination with the mystery of the past life of your of your parent.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，过了不知多久，我们才意识到，两个男人在棚屋里，光靠他们俩，实在不行，我们无法……

You know, after I don't know how long it was before we realized that two fellas in a shed, like, just couldn't we couldn't It

那太野蛮了。

was it was feral.

就那样。

With that.

我当时在想，希望某个时候能有个女人出现。

I was thinking, I hope a woman will come in at some point.

对。

Right.

嗯。

Yeah.

挑战是什么，罗南，呃，好吧。

What what is the challenge, Ronan, of of okay.

这是你的导演处女作，我想象执导自己的父母一定总是很有挑战性。

This is your featured directorial debut, and I imagine it would always be a challenge to direct one's own parent.

而且，顺便说一句，你父亲可是鼎鼎大名的丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯。

And, oh, by the way, your your father is is freaking Daniel Day Lewis.

那感觉怎么样？

What was that like?

嗯。

Yeah.

我一直以一种低压力、轻松有趣的方式来思考这件事，因为剧本的创作方式就是我们围坐在厨房餐桌旁一起打磨的。

I mean, I'd sort of been thinking of it in such a kind of low stakes playful way for so long because of the way the the script came together, which was just like us at the kitchen table working on it.

嗯。

Yeah.

你们一起写了剧本。

Y'all wrote the screenplay together.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

我们一起写了剧本。

We wrote the script together.

但我想，当我们第一次到片场时，我确实感受到了这件事的分量。

So but there was a moment, I think, when we first got on set where it did hit me just the the gravity of it.

但过渡到那种状态感觉还挺容易的。

But it it felt pretty easy to transition into that.

丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯，这是你时隔七八年来的第一部电影吗？

Daniel Day Lewis, this is your first movie in, what, seven or eight years?

是的。

Yes.

是的。

It is.

是的。

Yes.

那你儿子是不是费了好大劲才让你复出？

And did your son have to twist your arm to unretire?

不是。

No.

我的情况可能在外人看来像是这样，但事实上，恰恰相反，我之所以决定工作，是因为我非常希望和罗南合作，而我知道自己将要暂时转向其他事情。

I mean, it may seem like that from the outside, but, no, if if anything, I think it was really my wish to work with Ronan knowing that I'd decided to to work at something else for an unknown period of time.

我知道罗南会继续拍电影，内心其实有一种预期的失落感。

The the there was a kind of anticipatory sadness in me knowing that Ronan would make films.

我当时想，我们能不能一起创作点什么，纯粹为了享受合作的快乐。

And I I I thought, I wonder if we can cook something up just for the pure pleasure of working together.

那么我们来谈谈这个谜团吧。

So let's go to the mystery.

我想，创伤这个词更准确。

The trauma, I guess, is a better word.

这部电影的核心创伤，与北爱尔兰有关。

The trauma at the center of this film, which has to do with Northern Ireland.

雷：是的。

Ray Yes.

你的角色丹尼尔是一名前英国士兵。

Your character, Daniel, is a former English soldier.

他曾在那里作战。

He fought there.

他背负着在那里发生、并由他参与的那些往事的遗产。

He carries the legacy of things that happened there that he did.

我很好奇为什么选择北爱尔兰。

I wondered why Northern Ireland.

已经有很多电影和剧集探讨过‘麻烦’了。

There have been so many films, so many dramas that have explored The Troubles.

是什么让你们两人对重新审视这段历史产生了兴趣？

What intrigued the two of you about wanting to revisit that history?

是的。

Yeah.

不是。

No.

这确实没错。

That's certainly true.

我的意思是，但迄今为止，关于麻烦的故事大多是从另一边的角度讲述的。

I mean but, largely, the perspective of stories told about the troubles have been from the other side of the fence.

你知道，我从小对英国和爱尔兰都有着深厚的情感联系。

You know, I I grew up with sort of deep attachment to both Britain and to Ireland.

我拥有双重国籍。

I have dual citizenship.

我有很多亲密的朋友，他们分别站在那场可怕争论的双方。

I have close friends who were on both sides of that terrible argument.

是的。

Yeah.

就像我爸爸说的，他与爱尔兰的联系，以及他七岁到十三岁期间在那里长大，我们在学校里学到了关于动荡的历史。

Like, as my dad was saying, his connection to Ireland, and then also having grown up there from from seven to 13, we learned about the troubles in school.

从那以后，它在我的想象中一直占据着重要位置。

And I think since then, it's really loomed large in my imagination.

我认为，这部电影从一种近乎全知的视角来审视战争和人类的流血冲突，这一点对我来说也很重要。

And I think it was also important to me that the film is looking at war and human bloodshed from almost like an omniscient perspective.

而且，罗南，我注意到你出生于1998年。

Well, and I was just looking, Ronan, you were born in 1998.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

So Yeah.

你一定对《耶稣受难日协议》之前、动荡还很激烈的时候没有任何直接记忆了。

You must have no direct memory of before the Good Friday Accord, before the you know, when the troubles were were very much live.

是的。

Yeah.

反过来，这些年来，我花了相当多的时间在北爱尔兰，特别是在贝尔法斯特，那是冲突最严重的时期。

And conversely, over the years, I I spent quite a lot of time in the North Of Ireland, specifically in Belfast during the troubles when they're at the very worst.

那感觉是一个非常不同、非常危险的地方。

And it felt like a very, very different and a very threatening place.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你说的是，亲自到那里实地体验，才可能开始真正理解这个故事。

So you're talking about, you know, it matters to have spent time on the ground there to to remotely begin to understand the story.

让我们回到我们最初谈起的那座林中小屋，你的角色在那里远离公众视线多年，最终重新出现。

Let's go back to where we started on the cabin in the woods where your character has spent a long time away from the public before finally reemerging.

丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯，我注意到你本人也在做类似的事情——多年来一直远离公众视野。

It is not lost on me, Daniel Day Lewis, that you're doing something of the same thing, having stayed out of the public eye for years.

你是在借鉴某些个人经历吗？

Are you drawing on something personal there?

你以方法派演员著称。

You're known as a method actor.

不。

No.

很高兴你问了我这个问题。

I'm so so glad you asked me that question.

我很高兴有机会回应，因为我觉得我的名字很少被人提及时会附上‘隐居者’或‘避世者’这样的标签。

I'm delighted to have a chance to respond to it because I I I think my name is sort of rarely mentioned that that the word reclusive or recluse isn't attached to it.

我并不是一个隐居者。

And and I am not a recluse.

我只是不生活在镜头的焦点下。

I just don't live in the eye of the camera.

你知道的吗？

You know?

我的意思是，如果你不在公众视野中出现，人们就会觉得你某种程度上退出了普通日常生活。

I mean, if you're not visible publicly, you're you're deemed to be somehow, retired from ordinary everyday life.

你经常看到‘打破沉默’这个说法。

You very often see that phrase, break silence.

对。

Right.

但它的意思只是，我其实一直在和人交谈。

But all it means is that, you know, I talk to people all the time.

我只是没有对着麦克风说话而已。

I'm just not talking into a microphone Right.

一直都在。

All time.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

我和朋友、家人交谈，在不同的地方以不同的方式工作。

Talking to friends and family and working in different ways in different places.

所以生活继续，这绝对不是隐居者的生活。

So life goes on, and this is absolutely not the life of a recluse.

所以

So

让我向你们两位表示感谢。

Well, let me say thank you to both of you.

这真是一次绝对愉快的交流。

This has been an absolute pleasure.

非常感谢你们，我们也很高兴。

Thank you so us too.

是的。

Yeah.

谢谢你们邀请我们。

Thanks for having us.

太好了。

Great.

这是一位完全不隐居的演员，丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯。

Well, it's the very much not reclusive actor, Daniel Day Lewis.

好的。

Alright.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

还有他的儿子、导演罗南·戴-刘易斯，于十月在我们纽约分社与我们交谈，介绍了他们的电影《Animony》。

And his son, the director Ronan Day Lewis, speaking with us in October from our New York bureau about their movie Animony.

这部电影由焦点影业主导发行，我们应注明，焦点影业是NPR的财务赞助方。

It's out through Focus Features, which we should note is a financial sponsor of NPR.

本集由凯瑟琳·芬克和康纳·多诺万制作，音频工程由吉米·基利负责。

This episode was produced by Katherine Fink and Connor Donovan with audio engineering by Jimmy Kealy.

本集由帕特里克·贾伦·瓦塔南恩剪辑。

It was edited by Patrick Jaren Watananen.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这是来自NPR的考虑。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是玛丽·露易丝·凯利。

I'm Mary Louise Kelly.