美国在加勒比地区犯下战争罪行了吗？

嘿，你好。

Hey there.

我是玛丽·路易斯·凯利。

It's Mary Louise Kelly.

节目开始前简单说几句。

A quick word before we start the show.

明天是NPR的特殊日子。

Tomorrow is a special day at NPR.

今天是'捐赠星期二'，这个全球性的慷慨日NPR每年都会庆祝，但我们从未经历过像今年这样的特殊年份。

It's Giving Tuesday, the global day of generosity that NPR celebrates every year, but we have never had a year quite like this one before.

公共媒体正在面临没有联邦资金支持的新篇章。

Public media is navigating a new chapter without federal funding.

这意味着NPR历史上首次在没有联邦支持的情况下运营。

That means NPR is now operating without federal support for the first time in our history.

这段历史已经超过五十年了。

That history is more than fifty years.

这是一个重大转变，也是巨大挑战，但只要我们齐心协力就能克服。

It's a big change and a big challenge, but it is one we can overcome together.

您依赖《Consider This》节目来理解每日重大新闻事件。

You count on Consider This to help you make sense of the day's major news stories.

我们花时间深入挖掘头条背后的故事，提供更多背景信息，让您更清晰地了解美国和全球动态。

We take the time to go beyond the headlines, provide more context so you have a better understanding of what is going on in The US and around the world.

我们衷心感谢已经捐款支持这项工作的听众，比如来自马里兰州的梅根，她说NPR播客是她的主要新闻来源。

We are so grateful to those of you who have already stepped up to donate and support this work, people like Megan from Maryland who says NPR podcasts are my main source for news.

我知道如果《Up First》或《Consider This》没报道的新闻，我大概就不需要知道。

I know that if it is not on Up First or Consider This, I probably don't need to know it.

说得好，梅根。

Well said, Megan.

如果允许的话，我还想推荐《Sources and Methods》。

I will throw in sources and methods if I may.

这是我主持的每周国家安全主题播客。

That's the weekly national security podcast I host.

如果您今年已经捐赠过，或者已经是NPR Plus的支持者，我们衷心感谢您。

If you have already given this year, if you are already an NPR Plus supporter, thank you.

如果还没有，请在今天的‘捐赠星期二’立即行动，加入我们的Plus会员计划。

If not, make your Giving Tuesday gift right now and join us on the plus side.

NPR Plus是一项简单的定期捐赠计划，您不仅能享受NPR播客的专属福利，还能在收听的同时支持公共媒体。

NPR Plus is a simple recurring donation that gets you perks to NPR's podcasts, and you'll be supporting public media while you listen.

请前往+.npr.org注册。

Sign up at +.npr.org.

现在进入周一的节目内容。

Now to Monday's episode.

共和党今年大部分时间都对特朗普总统言听计从。

Republicans have spent much of this year deferring to president Trump.

加勒比海域针对疑似毒品走私船只的打击行动会改变这种局面吗？

Could the strikes on the suspected drug smuggling boats in The Caribbean change that?

以下是最新进展。

Here's the latest.

我们了解到，9月2日美国对一艘涉嫌贩毒的船只进行了两次打击，第一次打击后，随后的第二次打击导致两名幸存者丧生。

We know that on September 2, The US carried out two strikes on an alleged drug boat, a first strike and then a subsequent strike that killed the two remaining survivors.

在周一的新闻发布会上，白宫新闻秘书卡罗琳·莱维特表示，国防部长皮特·赫格塞斯授权海军上将弗兰克·布拉德利执行第二次打击。

During a press briefing on Monday, White House press secretary Caroline Leavitt said that defense secretary Pete Heg Seth authorized navy admiral Frank Bradley to conduct the second strike.

布拉德利上将在其职权和法律范围内妥善行事，指挥此次行动以确保毒品船只被摧毁，消除对美利坚合众国的威胁。

Admiral Bradley worked well within his authority and the law directing the engagement to ensure the vote was destroyed and the threat to The United States Of America was eliminated.

这种所谓的'双重打击'战术最初由《华盛顿邮报》报道。

The so called double tap attack was first reported by the Washington Post.

我对此一无所知。

I don't know anything about it.

他说他并没有那样说过，我百分之百相信这一点。

He said he said he did not say that, and I believe I'm 100%.

这是特朗普周日对记者发表的言论。

That's Trump speaking to reporters on Sunday.

当被问及是否希望进行第二次打击时，总统表示

When asked if he would have wanted a second strike, the president said

我们会调查此事。

We'll look into it.

但是，不，我不会想要那样，不会进行第二次打击。

But, no, I wouldn't have wanted that, not a second strike.

第一次打击已经非常致命了。

The first strike was very lethal.

部长哈格塞夫在X平台上发文称，加勒比海行动‘既符合美国法律也符合国际法’。

The secretary Hagsef posted on x that the campaign in The Caribbean is, quote, lawful under both US and international law.

参议院军事委员会共和党成员马克·韦恩·穆伦为哈格塞夫辩护。

Senator Mark Wayne Mullen, Republican on the Armed Services Committee, defended Hegsef.

以下是穆伦参议员在CNN的发言。

Here's senator Mullen on CNN.

这些人不关心我们亲友的生命。

These individuals don't care about the lives of our friends and families.

为什么我们要在乎在国际水域消灭他们？

Why do we care if we take them out in international water?

这是一场战争，因为他们已对我们的街道宣战，总统和赫格塞斯部长正在做我们该做的事——主动出击对抗敌人。

It is a war because they have declared war on our streets, and the president and secretary Hegseth is doing exactly what we should be doing, being proactive against our enemies.

但其他立法者要求得到答案。

But other lawmakers want answers.

内布拉斯加州的共和党众议员唐·培根告诉ABC新闻。

Republican congressman Don Bacon of Nebraska told ABC News.

我们应当查明真相。

We should get to the truth.

我不认为他会愚蠢到做出这种决定，说杀掉所有人、杀死幸存者，因为这明显违反了战争法。

I don't think he would be foolish enough to make this decision to say kill everybody, kill the survivors, because that's a clear violation of the law of war.

亚利桑那州民主党参议员马克·凯利。

Senator Mark Kelly, Democrat from Arizona.

他是参议院军事委员会中与培根对应的成员。

He is Bacon's counterpart on the Senate Armed Services Committee.

他表示委员会将对军方官员进行调查并要求他们宣誓作证。

He said the committee will investigate military officials and put them under oath.

这是参议员凯利在CNN上的发言。

Here's senator Kelly speaking on CNN.

如果报道内容属实，我对指挥链中任何人越界的行为深感忧虑，那是一条他们绝不该跨越的界限。

If what has been reported is act accurate, I've got serious concerns about anybody in that, you know, chain of command stepping over a line that they should never step over.

想想这个。

Consider this.

随着特朗普总统对委内瑞拉施压升级，国会议员们也在加紧质疑其国防部长的行为是否合法。

As president Trump has ramped up pressure on Venezuela, members of congress are ramping up questions on whether his defense secretary's actions are legal.

美国是否在加勒比海地区犯下战争罪行？

Is The US committing war crimes in The Caribbean?

这里是NPR的玛丽·路易斯·凯利为您报道。

From NPR, I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

我想快速确认一下。

So I just wanna check-in really quick.

你还好吗？还是正遭受睡眠不足、账单堆积或政治宣传的困扰？

Are you okay, or are you suffering from sleep deprivation, a stack of bills, or political propaganda?

如果是这样，你可能陷入了为人父母的困境。

If so, you may be stuck in the parent trap.

在《It's Been a Minute》播客中，我们将深入探讨现代育儿的焦虑，以及这种焦虑如何影响到我们每个人——即使你没有孩子。

On the It's Been a Minute podcast, we're diving headfirst into the anxieties of modern parenting and how that trickles out to all of us even if you don't have children.

来寻找一些慰藉吧。

Come find some relief.

在NPR应用或任何你获取播客的地方收听《It's Been a Minute》播客。

Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

有没有什么问题是你懒得去谷歌搜索的？

Do you have a question you just don't feel like googling?

我们是伊恩和迈克，《How to Do Everything》的主持人。

We're Ian and Mike, hosts of How to Do Everything.

我们可以帮你解答所有最紧迫的问题，比如：我可以用洗碗机做千层面吗？

We can help answer all of your most pressing questions like, can I cook lasagna in my dishwasher?

飞艇停在哪里？

Where do you park your blimp?

或者那个永恒的经典问题：那是什么味道？

Or the timeless classic, what's that smell?

我哦。

I oh.

请在NPR应用或你获取播客的任何地方收听《如何搞定一切》播客。

Listen to the to do everything podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

这里是NPR的报道。

It's considered this from NPR.

国会的职责是对行政部门的各个角落进行监督，无论是财政部、卫生与公众服务部还是国防部。

Congress is charged with providing oversight to all the nooks and crannies of the executive branch, whether that's the treasury department or health and human services or the defense department.

近日，多位国会议员表示，他们计划对特朗普政府所称的在加勒比地区打击毒品恐怖主义的行动进行更严格的监督。

And in recent days, several members of congress have said they're planning more aggressive oversight of what the Trump administration says is a fight against narcoterrorism in The Caribbean.

提出质疑的国会议员之一，是弗吉尼亚州的民主党参议员蒂姆·凯恩。

One of the members of congress asking questions, democratic senator Tim Caine of Virginia.

参议员，欢迎您。

Senator, welcome.

玛丽·路易斯，很高兴今天能和你交谈。

Mary Louise, glad to talk today.

关于第二次袭击导致两名最初幸存者死亡的详细情况，你了解得有多清楚？

How clear are you on details of what exactly happened with the second strike killing two people who had initially survived?

玛丽·路易斯，这件事非常扑朔迷离。

Mary Louise, it's very murky.

我认为在这里，我身处在两个最相关的委员会中，即军事委员会和外交关系委员会。

I think up here, the I'm on the two most relevant committees, armed services and foreign relations.

我们对有关第二次袭击导致这些幸存者死亡的报道感到非常、非常不安，这是一个两党共同关注的问题。

And we're very, very troubled and it's a bipartisan concern about the reporting of the second strike that killed these survivors.

因此，还有许多许多未解之谜。

And so there are many, many unanswered questions.

有这些袭击的视频吗？

Is a video of these strikes.

听起来你还没有看过。

It sounds like you haven't seen it.

我还没有看过那段视频。

I have not seen the video.

没错。

That's correct.

你要求观看视频了吗？

You've asked to see it?

我已经提出了一系列问题，但至今未得到答复。

I've asked a whole series of questions that I have not gotten answers to.

我在9月10日的信中提出了一系列问题，但大部分问题都未获解答。

I asked a series of questions in a letter dated September 10, and most of my questions have not been answered.

如果9月2日的第一波和第二波袭击确如《华盛顿邮报》报道、美国国家公共电台等媒体证实的那样，这行为是否违法？

If this September 2, if the first and second strikes happened as the Washington Post has reported it, as NPR and others have confirmed, would it be illegal?

这算不算战争罪？

Would it be a war crime?

关于合法性问题，玛丽莉丝，让我们先从第一波袭击说起。

Well, on the legality, Marylees, let's start with the first strike.

自这些空袭开始以来，我一直坚持认为它们没有法律授权。

I have maintained since these strikes began that there's no legal authorization for them.

我已审阅了法律顾问办公室的机密意见书，其中阐述了法律依据，但由于其机密性，我无法讨论具体内容。

And I have reviewed the Office of Legal Counsel classified opinion setting out a legal rationale because it's classified, I can't discuss its contents.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但我可以说，我完全无法被说服这次行动有任何合法性。

But I can say I found it completely unpersuasive that this this mission is lawful at all.

现在谈谈第二次空袭。

But on to the second strike.

暂且不论第一次空袭，这些任务是有法律授权的。

Set aside the first strike, these missions are legally authorized.

第二次空袭中，如果你们追击袭击幸存者并杀害他们，这明显违反了国防部《战争法手册》和国际公约中关于对待受伤战斗人员的规定。

The second strike, if you go after survivors of an attack and you kill them, that is a clear violation of both DOD law of war manual and international conventions about the treatment of wounded combatants.

因此，如果报道属实——即根据国防部长的命令，对第一次袭击的幸存者实施了致命打击——若报道属实，那么根据美国法律和国际法，这都属于战争罪。

And so if the reporting is correct that on orders from the secretary of defense, a strike was made to kill the survivors of this first attack, if that reporting is correct, it's a war crime under both American law and international law.

为了尽可能明确表述，尽管我们承认掌握的数据有限。

And just to be as clear as we can be with as as we're acknowledging, limited data.

我们还没有看到实际发生情况的视频。

We haven't seen this video of what actually happened.

但关键在于这是一次二次打击。

But the the importance of it being a second strike.

我的意思是，如果美国已经做出决定下达命令攻击这艘船，杀死船上所有人，那么二次打击的细节就在于他们幸存了下来。

I mean, if The US is has made a decision, an order has been given, attack this boat, kill everybody on it, The detail of the second strike is because they survived.

按照规则，难道不应该将他们作为战俘吗？

You're supposed to, what, take them prisoner of war?

给他们一个为自己辩护的机会？

Give them give them some opportunity to plead their case?

是的。

Yes.

按规定你应该将他们俘虏，然后再做决定。

You're supposed to you're supposed to take them prisoner, and then you decide.

我是说，这里还有另一个许多人关注的事实。

I mean, here's another fact that a lot of folks have focused on.

后续的一次袭击中确实有幸存者，一名哥伦比亚人和一名厄瓜多尔人。

There was a subsequent strike where there were survivors, one Colombian and one Ecuadorian.

政府将他们接走后，又送回了哥伦比亚或厄瓜多尔。

The administration picked them up and then returned them to Colombia or Ecuador.

如果他们真是毒贩，为什么没有被逮捕？

If they were narco traffickers, why weren't they arrested?

为什么没有对他们进行审判或施压以追查上线？

Why weren't they put on trial or pressured to reveal their higher ups?

为什么要把他们送回哥伦比亚和厄瓜多尔？

Why were they sent back to Colombia and Ecuador?

难道就这样释放他们回到平民中吗？

Were they released back into the civilian population?

后续袭击中的这一事实，让人严重质疑我们打击的到底是战斗人员，还是那些被指控为毒贩但实际上并非如此的人。

That fact on a subsequent strike raises real questions about whether we're even striking combatants or whether we're striking people claiming that they're narcotraffickers when they're actually not.

因此，政府再次为这些空袭辩护，称其合法。

So again, the administration is defending these strikes as they are legal.

国防部长皮特·赫格斯在X平台上发文表示，引用他的原话，'这些空袭的目的是阻止致命毒品流通、摧毁贩毒船只，并消灭那些毒害美国人民的毒枭恐怖分子'。

The defense secretary Pete Hegseth has said the intent of these strikes, I'm quoting a a post he he put up on x, the intent of the strikes is to stop lethal drugs, destroy narco boats, and kill the narco terrorists who are poisoning the American people.

凯恩参议员，这有什么问题吗？

Senator Kane, what's wrong with that?

如果你将此理由提交国会并让国会投票决定我们应为此开战，那将是个绝佳的理由。

That would be a great rationale if you presented it to congress and let congress vote that we should be at war to do just that.

我们的宪法明确规定，战争应由国会发起。

Our constitution makes very plain that war is initiated by congress.

一旦战争启动，总统、国防部长及其他人员作为总司令负责执行战争行动。

Once initiated, the president, secretary of defense, and others are the commander in chief that implement the initiation of war.

但战争并非由总统单方面决定。

But war is not for the president to decide.

我国宪法的制定者们——在乔治·华盛顿任总统时期——就已做出这一决定，玛丽·路易丝。

The framers of our constitution decided that, Mary Louise, when George Washington was president.

他们甚至不希望乔治·华盛顿单方面让国家陷入战争，当然也不会希望唐纳德·特朗普这么做。

They didn't even want George Washington to unilaterally take the nation to war, and they certainly wouldn't want Donald Trump doing it either.

我想谈谈你计划重新提出的《战争权力决议》。

I wanna talk about the war powers resolution that, you are planning to reintroduce.

这将要求国会批准在加勒比海地区的军事行动。

This would require congressional approval for military force in The Caribbean.

你今年秋天确实尝试推动过这项决议。

You did try to get that through this fall.

你无法获得足够多同事的支持。

You couldn't get enough of your colleagues to support it.

现在有什么变化？

What has changed?

路易丝市长，这里有两项独立的决议。

Mayor Louise, there's there's two separate resolutions.

它们之间密切相关。

They're very closely related.

一项涉及加勒比海和太平洋国际水域的船只撞击问题。

One deals with boat strikes in international waters in The Caribbean and The Pacific.

你说得对。

And you're right.

我们提交了那份决议。

We filed that.

亚当·希夫是主要提案人。

Adam Schiff was the lead sponsor.

我是他的联合提案人。

I was his co sponsor.

我们获得了两位共和党人的投票。

We got two republican votes.

我们至少需要四票。

We needed at least four.

随后我主导了一项类似决议：未经国会授权，不得对委内瑞拉发动战争。我们获得了两位共和党人支持，但至少需要四票。

I then led a similar resolution, no war in Venezuela or against Venezuela without We congressional got two republicans, we needed at least four.

尽管这两项决议都针对后续诸多事态发展进行了投票表决。

Both of those resolutions though were voted on for a lot of the subsequent developments.

因此在委内瑞拉局势中，军队在委内瑞拉周边集结，总统关闭领空，并宣布已授权秘密行动。

So with the Venezuela situation, the amassing of troops around Venezuela, the president closing the airspace, announcing that he's authorized covert operations.

事态已急剧升级。

This has escalated dramatically.

同样地，加勒比海和太平洋地区的袭击事件，包括关于第二次袭击的揭露、南方司令部指挥官的提前退役，以及英国决定停止与我们共享情报。

And similarly, the strikes in The Caribbean and Pacific, including with the revelation about about the the second strike, the the retirement, the early retirement of the Southcom commander, the decision by The UK to stop sharing intelligence with us.

国会需要在此事上行使控制权。

Congress needs to assert control here.

弗吉尼亚州民主党人蒂姆·凯恩，如你所闻，他是参议院军事委员会和外交关系委员会的参议员。

Virginia Democrat Tim Kaine, as you heard, he sits on the Senate Armed Services and Foreign Affairs Committee senator.

谢谢。

Thank you.

不客气。

You bet.

本期节目由文森特·阿科维诺和凯伦·萨莫拉制作。

This episode was produced by Vincent Acovino and Karen Zamora.

由帕特里克·贾伦·瓦塔纳南和考特妮·多南编辑。

It was edited by Patrick Jaren Watananen and Courtney Dornan.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·耶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这里是《考虑一下》。

It's Consider This.

来自NPR，我是玛丽·路易斯·凯莉。

From NPR, I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

《Wildcard》让大牌访谈变得像朋友间的对话。

Wildcard is where big name interviews feel like conversations with a friend.

说真的，我都不敢相信自己有多幸运。

I mean, I can't believe how lucky I've been.

你告别的方式不对，马修。

You didn't say goodbye the right way, McConaughey.

她告诉我，我觉得你不是普林斯顿的料。

She told me, I don't think you're Princeton material.

要说我有什么特点，大概就是坦率吧。

I'm nothing if not open, I guess.

我是瑞秋·马丁。

I'm Rachel Martin.

请在NPR应用、YouTube或你获取播客的任何平台观看或收听《Wildcard》。

Watch or listen to Wildcard on the NPR app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.