联邦特工是否享有“绝对豁免权”？

明尼阿波利斯全城爆发了抗议活动。

Protests have erupted all across Minneapolis.

这是在上周一名移民和海关执法局官员在一辆车内开枪打死了一名37岁女性之后发生的。

This is after an immigration and customs enforcement officer fatally shot a 37 year old woman in her car last week.

一些抗议者在面对海关与边境保护局官员时吹响了哨子。

Some protesters have blown whistles as they confront ICE officers.

联邦特工回应称，逮捕了一些示威者，对其他人进行扑倒并施放催泪瓦斯。

Federal agents have responded by arresting some demonstrators, tackling, and tear gassing others.

目前，超过2000名联邦移民官员已被部署在双子城地区，本周还将有数百人抵达。

More than 2,000 federal immigration agents are now deployed in the Twin Cities area with hundreds more expected this week.

与此同时，白宫继续谴责这些抗议活动。

Meanwhile, the White House has continued to condemn the protests.

整个周末，你都看到煽动者和暴力的美国公民涌上明尼阿波利斯的街头抗议。

All weekend long, you had agitators and violent American citizens out in the streets of Minneapolis protesting.

他们到底在抗议什么？

Protesting what exactly?

周一，白宫新闻秘书卡罗琳·利维特进一步为乔纳森·罗斯辩护。

Speaking on Monday, White House press secretary Caroline Leavitt also went on to defend Jonathan Ross.

这名男子就是ICE官员，他在与移民官员对峙时开枪射杀了雷妮·麦金林·古德。

That's the ICE officer who shot and killed Renee Macklin Good during a confrontation with immigration agents.

本届政府将全力支持ICE的勇敢男女，包括明尼阿波利斯那位绝对有理由使用自卫的官员。

And this administration will continue to stand wholeheartedly by the brave men and women of ICE, including that officer in Minneapolis who was absolutely justified in using self defense.

请想一想。

Consider this.

上周致命枪击事件后，问责机制应该是什么样子？

After last week's fatal shooting, what does accountability look like?

联邦特工能否被起诉？

Can a federal agent be prosecuted?

我们向一位法律学者提出了这个问题。

Well, we put that question to a legal scholar.

来自NPR，我是艾尔莎·张。

From NPR, I'm Elsa Chang.

这条信息来自Wise，一款专为全球使用货币的国际人士设计的应用。

This message comes from Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe.

您只需轻点几下，即可发送、消费和接收多达40种货币。

You can send, spend, and receive in up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps.

聪明一点。

Be smart.

选择Wise。

Get wise.

立即下载Wise应用或访问wise.com。

Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com.

条款与条件

Ts and cs

民主、环境灾难，空气中弥漫着混乱的腐臭味。

democracy, environmental disaster, the sour stench of chaos in the air.

我是WNYC《On the Media》节目的主持人布鲁克·格拉德斯通。

I'm Brooke Gladstone, host of WNYC's On the Media.

想了解那些将我们带到今天的叙事背后的原因和意义，以及如何在事态恶化前加以阻止吗？

Want to understand the reasons and the meanings of the narratives that led us here and maybe how to head them off at the past?

这正是《On the Media》的专长。

That's on the media specialty.

无论你在哪个平台收听播客，都来听听吧。

Take a listen wherever you get your podcasts.

今年，在NPR的《ThruLine》节目中，生命、自由与对幸福的追求。

This year on NPR's ThruLine, life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness.

几个世纪以来，美国的追求改变了世界。

For centuries, America's pursuit has changed the world.

如今，二百五十年过去了，我们是谁？

Now two hundred fifty years later, who are we?

我们将走向何方？

Where are we headed?

每周二加入我们，收听全新系列节目《美国的追求》于《ThruLine》。

Join us every Tuesday for a brand new series, America in Pursuit on Throughline.

请在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台收听。

Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

这是来自NPR的《考虑一下》。

It's consider this from NPR.

上周，一名移民和海关执法局官员在明尼阿波利斯开枪打死了一名37岁的女性，目前联邦调查正在进行中。

A federal investigation is underway after an immigration and customs enforcement officer fatally shot a 37 year old woman in Minneapolis last week.

与此同时，明尼苏达州正在收集自己关于这起枪击案的证据，因为联邦调查局将州调查机构拒之门外，并拒绝分享联邦证据。

Meanwhile, the state of Minnesota is gathering its own evidence about the shooting after the FBI shut the state's investigative agency out of the case and declined to share federal evidence.

尽管上周致命枪击事件的细节仍存在争议，但人们对相关法律的理解也存在分歧。

As the facts of last week's deadly shooting remain disputed, there's also disagreement about what the law is.

以下是副总统J.D.万斯上周四在白宫的讲话。

Here's vice president JD Vance speaking from the White House last Thursday.

这里的先例非常简单。

The precedent here is very simple.

你有一个联邦执法人员正在执行联邦执法行动。

You have a federal law enforcement official engaging in federal law enforcement action.

这是一个联邦问题。

That's a federal issue.

那个人享有绝对豁免权。

That guy is protected by absolute immunity.

他当时正在履行职责。

He was doing his job.

不过，一些法律专家对绝对豁免权这一观点提出了异议。

Well, some legal experts have pushed back on that point about absolute immunity.

戴维·科尔是乔治城大学的法学教授，也曾任美国公民自由联盟的国家法律总监。

David Cole is a law professor at Georgetown University and the former national legal director at the American Civil Liberties Union.

欢迎。

Welcome.

谢谢邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢您参与我们的节目。

Well, thanks for being with us.

我想先谈谈副总统的那些言论。

I wanna start with the vice president's comments there.

联邦特工在执行职务时犯下罪行，是否享有所谓的绝对豁免权？

Do federal agents have so called absolute immunity at the federal level for crimes they commit while on duty?

绝对没有。

Absolutely not.

副总统上过法学院，理应更清楚这一点。

And the vice president should know better, having gone to law school.

没有人凌驾于法律之上。

No one is above the law.

联邦特工进入一个州，开始犯下罪行，包括杀人。

Federal agents go into a state and start committing crimes, including murdering people.

他们和普通人一样，需对州政府承担责任，当然有一些例外情况。

They are liable to the state to the same extent as everyone else with, some exceptions.

但他们并不享有绝对豁免权。

But they are not absolutely immune.

好的。

Okay.

那么，与此同时，既然联邦政府声称正在调查此案，我们能否提一下托德·布兰奇——司法部副部长——已经说过的一些话？

Well, the meantime, as the federal government investigates this case as they say they're doing, can we just bring up some words that Todd Blanche, the Justice Department's Deputy Attorney General, has already said?

他说：‘目前没有依据开展刑事民权调查。’

He said, quote, there is currently no basis for a criminal civil rights investigation.

所以我有点困惑。

So I'm just a little confused.

如果他们已经得出结论，认为没有依据开展刑事民权调查，那这项联邦调查又处于什么位置？

Where does that leave this federal investigation if they've already concluded there's no basis for a criminal civil rights investigation?

我认为这确实是个大问题。

Well, I think this is a real problem.

当政府在调查自己，而且政府高层——不仅托德·布兰奇，还包括特朗普总统——已经明确表示不希望对这个人追究责任，无论怎样都支持他时，这样的调查不可能是公正的。

When the government is investigating itself, and when the top level of the government has made clear, not just Todd Blanche but President Trump, that they don't want any accountability for this individual, they are backing this individual no matter what, you can't have a legitimate investigation.

当高层人士在调查结束前就断言‘这里根本没出错’，谁还会相信政府自我调查的结果？

Who's gonna trust the results of the government investigating itself when the top, folks have all said before the investigation is concluded, nothing wrong happened here.

当我们谈论州法律时，联邦特工可能因违反州法律而被起诉。

And when we're talking about state law, a federal agent can be prosecuted for violating state law.

对吗？

Correct?

当然。

Absolutely.

那么在这一层面上发生了什么？

So what is happening on that level?

如果联邦政府说他们在进行调查，那么关于潜在的州法律违规行为呢？

If the federal government is saying they're doing an investigation, what about potential violations of state law?

州政府有权进行调查。

Well, the state has the, prerogative to investigate.

通常情况下，联邦政府会配合这项调查，但州政府有权调查，有权起诉，而该官员唯一的豁免权是，如果他能证明自己的行为是履行联邦职责所必需且适当的。

Ordinarily, the federal government would cooperate in that investigation, but the state has the right to investigate, the state has the right to prosecute, and the only immunity that the officer would have is if he could demonstrate that his actions were necessary and proper to carrying out his federal function.

而且，依我们从视频中看到的事实来看，要说这些行为是必要的，我认为这很难成立。

And, you know, I think that would be hard on the facts that we have seen on on video to say this was necessary.

假设在此案中最终不会对雷妮·麦金林·古德提起任何刑事指控，那么在民事法律下有哪些救济途径？

Assuming that no criminal charges are eventually filed relating to this case of Renee Macklin Goode, what recourse would be available under civil law?

谈谈谁可以就涉及此案的任何联邦执法人员提起民事诉讼。

Talk about who could file a civil complaint against any of the federal agents involved in this case.

她的遗属可以根据一种名为‘比文斯’的法律原则起诉该警员，该原则允许个人在有限情况下就联邦执法人员侵犯其宪法权利的行为提起诉讼，而第四修正案所禁止的不合理使用武力已被认定为可据此对警员提起民事诉讼的合法依据。

Well, her survivors could sue the officer under a doctrine called Bivens that allows individuals to sue federal agents for violations of their constitutional rights in limited circumstances, but violations of the fourth amendment, which is what a unjustified use of force is, have been recognized as a permissible ground for bringing a civil lawsuit against the officer.

你还可以根据《联邦侵权索赔法》对联邦政府本身就该行为提起诉讼。

And you can also bring an action under the Federal Tort Claims Act against the federal government itself for the action.

好的。

Okay.

展望未来，当联邦政府和州官员都在调查雷妮·麦克莱恩·古德之死时，你会关注哪些方面？

Well as we're looking ahead, as both the federal government and state officials are looking into the killing of Renee MacLean Goode, What are you gonna be watching for?

你知道，每当有警察杀人事件被录像并广泛传播时，最重要的是要公平公正地处理此事。

You know, I think whenever you've got a police killing that is caught on video, widely shared, what's most important is that it be dealt with fairly and justly.

因为如果人们看到政府官员可以毫无问责地杀害公民，就会丧失对执法系统的信任。

Because if people see that government officials are able to kill citizens without accountability, you lose trust in the law enforcement system.

当我们失去对执法机构的信任时，就会发生非常非常糟糕的事情。

And when we lose trust in law enforcement, very very bad things, happen.

一方面，人们可能会走上街头，自己实施暴力，因为他们对政府未能追究其官员的责任感到极度愤怒。

One is that people can take the streets and can engage in violence themselves because they are so outraged at the government for failing to hold its own officials accountable.

而且你在世界各地都能看到这种情况。

And you see that, you know, across the world.

但除此之外，当人们失去对执法机构的信任时，他们就更不愿意配合执法。

But short of that, when they lose faith in law enforcement, they are less likely to cooperate with enforcement.

他们更不愿意担任陪审员、证人，更不愿意报警或与警察互动。

They're less likely to serve as jurors, as witnesses, to call the police, to engage with officers.

而法律的执行在很大程度上依赖于我们的配合，而不是警棍和枪支。

And the enforcement of law is largely dependent on our cooperation, not on the the baton and the gun.

大卫·科尔是乔治城大学的法学教授。

David Cole is a law professor at Georgetown University.

非常感谢。

Thank you very much.

谢谢。

Thank you.

本集由凯瑟琳·芬克制作。

This episode was produced by Katherine Fink.

本集由克里斯托弗·因蒂利亚塔剪辑，执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

It was edited by Christopher Inteliata, and our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这是NPR的《就此而言》。

It's Consider This from NPR.

我是尔莎·张。

I'm Elsa Chang.

在《Radiolab》，我们最享受的就是沉迷于科学、神经科学和化学。

At Radiolab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science, neuroscience, chemistry.

但我们也会讲述其他类型的故事。

But but we do also like to get into other kinds of stories.

关于执法或政治的故事。

Stories about policing or Politics.

乡村音乐。

Country music.

冰球。

Hockey.

昆虫的性别。

Sex of bugs.

无论我们关注的是科学还是非科学，我们都以严谨的好奇心为您寻找答案。

Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science, we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers.

并希望让您以全新的视角看待这个世界。

And hopefully, make you see the world anew.

Radiolab，探索我们自以为已知事物的边缘之旅。

Radiolab, adventures on the edge of what we think we know.

无论您在何处收听播客。

Wherever you get your podcasts.

如今，许多人担心人工智能可能是一场泡沫。

There is a lot of fear these days that AI could be a bubble.

所以，是尼克，对吧？

So, Nick, is it?

我不知道。

I don't know.

对。

Right.

很难判断，但经济学家说，有一些线索可能在一定程度上帮助我们预测泡沫。

It is hard to tell, but there are some clues that economists say might kind of sort of help us predict bubbles.

在《Planet Money》播客中，泡沫检测的黑暗艺术。

On the Planet Money podcast, the dark art of bubble detection.

在NPR应用或你收听播客的任何平台收听。

Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.