随着另一笔资金截止日期临近，寻找共同点

国会即将迎来另一个周五的拨款截止日期。

Congress is approaching yet another Friday funding deadline.

本周的争议焦点是，在明尼阿波利斯发生两起美国公民被致命枪击事件后，对联邦移民官员的限制措施。

This week's sticking point, guardrails for federal immigration agents after two deadly shootings of US citizens in Minneapolis.

这关系到国土安全部的拨款。

The stakes funding for the Department of Homeland Security.

前进的道路是什么？

The path forward?

嗯，这是个数十亿美元的问题。

Well, that is the multibillion dollar question.

起初，最高层立法者似乎对找到共同点持乐观态度。

At first, top lawmakers seemed optimistic about finding common ground.

从众议院议长迈克·约翰逊到参议院民主党领袖帕蒂·默里。

From house speaker Mike Johnson to leading senate democrats like Patty Murray.

我会尽我所能，确保我们应对这一关键时刻。

I'll be doing everything I possibly can to ensure that we meet this moment.

所以我认为我们能够达成协议。

And so I think we can get to an agreement.

我当然希望这是真的。

I certainly hope that's true.

但随着周五截止日期的临近，这种乐观情绪逐渐消退。

But that optimism faded as we got closer to Friday's deadline.

他们立即否决了民主党合理可行的提案，这完全在预料之中。

Their immediate rejection of the Democrats' common sense proposals was totally predictable.

如此短的时间表将是极具挑战性的，甚至可能是不可能的。

Such a short timeline would be challenging, if not impossible.

这是参议院多数党领袖约翰·图恩的说法。

That was senate majority leader John Thune.

他说，民主党拖延了时间，然后提出了一长串根本不可行的方案；而我们也听到了参议院少数党领袖查克·舒默的回应，他称共和党的提议不足。

He says Democrats dawdled and then produced a laundry list of nonstarters, while senate minority leader Chuck Schumer, who we also heard from, called Republicans' offer insufficient.

前参议员海迪·海特坎普，这位来自北达科他州的民主党人，曾花数小时与参议员们磋商，试图解决债务上限僵局，她说，两党谈判历来都如走钢丝，尤其是在国家危机期间。

Former senator Heidi Heitkamp, a North Dakota Democrat, spent hours in rooms with senators trying to resolve a standoff over the debt ceiling, and she says bipartisan negotiations have always been a high wire act, particularly amid a national crisis.

你知道吗，当震惊过去后，大家又立刻回到了各自的立场。

You know, when the shock wears off, then all of a sudden, everybody goes back to their corners.

阿拉巴马州的共和党参议员凯蒂·布里特正在协助领导当前的谈判。

Republican senator Katie Britt of Alabama is helping lead the current negotiations.

她说自己一直在思考公众的信任问题。

She says she's thinking a lot about the public's trust.

任何人都能发现问题。

Anybody can identify a problem.

我们必须成为寻找解决方案的人。

We have to be people that are looking for solutions.

我认为，我们有责任为我们所服务的人找到前进的道路。

I think we owe it to the people we serve to actually find that pathway forward.

布里特曾与几位民主党人达成协议，推动投票结束了上一次大规模停摆，其中包括弗吉尼亚州的参议员蒂姆·凯恩。

Britt helped strike a deal with a handful of Democrats that voted to end the last big shutdown, including senator Tim Kaine of Virginia.

凯恩表示，他仍然相信两党合作是可能的，但这真的很难。

Kaine says he still believes bipartisan action is possible, but that it's really hard.

在医疗保健和移民问题上，两党立场根本上存在巨大差异。

On health care, on immigration, the parties are in fundamentally very, very different places.

凯恩表示，他参与此类谈判时抱有很高期望，但预期很低。

Kane says he goes into negotiations like this with high hopes but low expectations.

想想看，两党之间的共同点真的像表面看起来那样狭窄吗？

Consider this, is common ground between parties really as narrow as it seems?

广告之后，我们将听取两位国会议员的意见，一位是共和党人，一位是民主党人，他们认为彼此的共同点比分歧更多，并且依然相信存在前进的道路。

After the break, we will hear from two congressmen, one republican, one democrat, who believe that they share more in common than what divides them, and they still believe in a path forward.

来自NPR，我是斯科特·德特拉。

From NPR, I'm Scott Detra.

这是NPR的《深思一下》。

It's consider this from NPR.

本周，最高移民官员正在国会山作证，距离为国土安全部拨款的周五截止日期仅剩几天。

Top immigration officials are testifying on Capitol Hill this week ahead of Friday's deadline to fund the Department of Homeland Security.

民主党拒绝在不改变联邦特工执行移民突袭方式的情况下为国土安全部拨款，而共和党则不愿批准他们普遍支持的移民执法行动的重大改革。

Democrats have refused to fund DHS without changes to how federal agents conduct immigration sweeps, and Republicans are reluctant to approve significant reforms to an immigration enforcement operation that they broadly support.

那么，在国土安全部周五资金耗尽之前，两党如何才能找到共同点呢？

So how can the parties find any common ground before DHS runs out of money on Friday?

我们邀请了两位议员，分别来自两党，来讨论这一切。

We've invited two lawmakers, one from each party, to talk about all of this.

来自宾夕法尼亚州的共和党国会议员布莱恩·菲茨帕特里克和来自纽约州的民主党国会议员汤姆·苏亚兹。

Republican congressman Brian Fitzpatrick of Pennsylvania and Democratic congressman Tom Suazy of New York.

他们共同担任问题解决者核心小组的联席主席。

Together, they cochair the Problem Solvers Caucus.

他们两人联名致信白宫，敦促特朗普总统抓住这一时机，考虑一项更广泛的两党移民与执法改革方案。

They both penned a letter to the White House urging president Trump to take this moment to consider a broader bipartisan fixed immigration and enforcement.

非常感谢你们两位的到来。

Thanks so much to both of you.

谢谢你们邀请我们。

Thanks for having us.

是的。

Yeah.

谢谢，斯科特。

Thanks, Scott.

让我从这一点开始。

Let me start with this.

我先请菲茨帕特里克议员发言，然后再请斯瓦齐议员发言。

I'll start with congressman Fitzpatrick then then turn to congressman Swazi.

我知道你们俩经常一起合作。

I want you you both work together a lot.

你们谈到寻找共同点，寻求解决方案。

You talk about finding common ground, getting solutions.

所以我真的很想先问问，你们在移民和移民执法方面最大的分歧点是什么。

So I actually would love to start with what the biggest area you disagree on when it comes to immigration when it comes to immigration enforcement.

因为，这能让我们了解到达成协议的可能性有多大。

Because, I mean, that tells us a lot about the possibility of a deal.

菲茨帕特里克议员，我先从你开始。

Congressman Fitzpatrick, let me start with you.

在政策层面，我们两人都同意边境必须得到保障。

In terms of policy, both of us agree that the border needs to be secure.

我们两人都同意，在境内执法时需要有人性化并展现同情心。

Both of us agree that we need to be humane and show compassion when it comes to enforcement in the interior.

我们两人都同意，必须将构成公共安全威胁的危险暴力罪犯与那些仅因越境而未犯其他罪行的无证人员区分开来。

Both of us agree that you have to separate out the dangerous violent offenders who pose a public safety threat

嗯。

Mhmm.

把那些只是非法入境但未犯其他罪行的人区分开来。

From the people that are here in this country undocumented who have committed no other crime other than crossing the border.

你知道，汤姆可能有不同意见，但据我与他的沟通来看，我们之间完全没有分歧。

You know, Tom may disagree, but, you know, in my communications with him, there's been no no distance whatsoever.

是的。

Yeah.

我们两人之间并没有分歧，我认为很多民主党人和共和党人其实都能轻易达成一致，正如布莱恩所说，实现边境安全、改革破碎的庇护体系，并为自特朗普总统上任以来已在此居住超过九年的许多人提供合法身份。

We don't we don't disagree between the two of us, and I think there are a lot of Democrats and a lot of Republicans could could easily come, to a way forward to, as Brian said, to secure the border, to fix the broken asylum system, to legalize a bunch of people that have been here for more than nine years since President Trump first came into office.

问题是，如今最积极参与政治、最具激情的政治人士往往处于极端边缘。

The problem is is that the people that are most involved in politics these days, most passionate politics are often off at the extreme edges.

因此，我们必须在这样一个充满敌意的环境中努力工作，说：听好了，我们共同点远多于分歧，让我们试着推动这一点。

So we have to do the hard work of functioning in what is a toxic environment to say, listen, we share more in common than what divides us, let's try and push that through.

我想从国会当前的议题开始，也就是这份似乎将在周五到期的拨款法案。

I wanna start with the current issue before congress with the current funding bill that seems to expire on Friday.

你们两位似乎基本达成一致，认为这里存在一条前进的道路。

So the two of you seem to be mostly on the same page and saying there is a path forward here.

显然，国会整体并不一定认同这一点，我想知道你们认为最大的挑战是什么，是短期协议，还是长期协议。

I think it's clear to everybody that congress as a whole is not necessarily on that page, and I'm wondering what you think the biggest challenge is, whether it's a short term deal, whether it's a longer term deal.

最大的障碍是什么？

What is the biggest sticking point?

是关于ICE和边境巡逻队在美国境内行动的任何限制吗？

Is it is it the idea of any sort of restrictions on ICE and border patrol operating within The US?

你觉得是其他问题吗？

Do you think it's something else?

我们确实需要对ICE目前的运作方式加以限制。

Well, we certainly need to have restrictions on the way that ICE is operating now.

我认为，在亚历克斯·佩蒂被杀之后，我们已经真正达到了一个临界点。

I think that, we've really just hit a tipping point, after Alex Petty was killed.

我一直认为，总统说得对，我们必须保障边境安全。

And, you know, I've long said that, you know, the president's right, we have to secure the border.

总统说得对，我们必须驱逐暴力罪犯。

President's right, we have to deport violent criminals.

总统说得对，我们必须打击暴力贩毒集团。

The president's right, we have to go after violent cartels.

但他却把在这方面取得的任何成果都浪费在了这些突袭行动上，而我认为这些行动在许多方面都是非法且不道德的。

But he's squandering any success he's had in that respect on these raids that are taking place that are really, have been, I believe, illegal and immoral in many ways.

这些行动经济上不明智，社会上具有破坏性，道德上也是错误的。

They're economically unwise, they're socially destructive, and they're morally wrong.

我认为大多数美国人倾向于这样的立场：我们要打击帮派，但不想针对园丁。

I think most Americans are leaning in the position We want to go after the gangs, we don't want to go after the gardeners.

所以，菲茨帕特里克议员，萨扎议员刚才说的这些，您认为众议院中有多少共和党人会基本同意他的观点？

So representative Fitzpatrick, everything that representative Suazi just said, how many Republicans in the house do you think would by and large agree with what he said?

信不信由你，多数人会同意。

Believe it or not, the majority.

你知道，不幸的是，政治因素妨碍了这些人的立场。

You know, the the challenge, unfortunately, is politics gets in the way for a lot of these people.

我们不可能在一周内就解决需要改革的移民与海关执法局所有问题。

We're not going to get to an agreement on all the things that need to be fixed with ICE in a week.

一周内是不可能实现的。

It's not going to happen in a week.

这需要时间。

It's going to take time.

这需要大量的对话，就像弗洛伊德事件之后那样。

It's going to take a lot of conversations, just like we had post George Floyd.

但在移民与海关执法局的问题上，我们都应该同意：是时候揭开面具了。

But in terms of ICE, we should all agree that the mask should come off.

我们都应该同意需要24小时全天候使用执法记录仪。

We should all agree on the need for body cameras 20, you know, twenty four seven.

不过，我认为白宫在‘摘下面具’这个问题上并不认同，这感觉像是

Well, I don't think the White House agrees on the mask question though, and that that feels like a

一个相当隐秘的事。

pretty secret.

我仅代表我个人发言，我也在向你们传达我与国会众多同事交流时听到的意见，他们也同意这一点。

I'm speaking on my I'm speaking on my own behalf, and I and I'm I'm also telling you the conversations that I have with many many of my colleagues on the floor, they agree with that.

你们两人说的都是我认为绝大多数美国人会认同的观点。

You are both saying things that I think you've you've pulled the majority of Americans would agree with.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

但我们生活在一个这样的世界里：选区划分，实际上，各选区正朝着相反的方向发展，双方都变得越来越极端，我们必须改革这种选区重划。

But we are living in a world where you know that the the district if anything, congressional districts are going the opposite direction as both sides get more and more We gotta fix that redistricting.

我们面临的最大问题之一。

Of the biggest problems we have.

我们必须

We gotta

解决这个问题。

fix that.

当然。

Sure.

你已经看到移民、移民和海关执法变得让许多美国人感到恐惧。

And you have seen immigration and ICE and border patrol enforcement become something that has terrified a lot of Americans.

它已经成为我们长期以来见过的最严重的政治危机之一。

It's become some of the biggest political crises we've seen in a long time.

所以我想问的是，考虑到我们当前所处的世界现实，你们两位认为在国会中，针对这个你们都关心的问题，未来的出路是什么？

So I guess my question is, given the reality of the world we are facing right now, what do you both think the path forward is in this congress for this issue that you both clearly care about?

问题。

Question.

我认为，就目前摆在我们面前的国土安全部拨款这一移民问题而言，我们应当采取非常短期的持续决议延期，并且每次都附带一项改革。

I think that for the immigration issue with DHS funding, which is the issue right before us right now, we do very, very short term CR extensions that are always coupled with one reform.

对吧？

Right?

那么，我们大家都能达成一致的最简单改革是什么？

So what's easiest reform that we can all agree on?

比如说，收容营，对吧？

Let's say body camps, right?

那么，我们是否可以先将国土安全部的拨款延长两周，并加上这一项改革？

So how about we do a two week extension of DHS funding and we add that one reform?

如果我们之后还想再延长两周或一个月，就再增加一项我们都同意的改革。

And then if we want another two week or another month extension, we add another reform that we all agree to.

这样，至少我们可以逐步取得进展，最终达到我们需要的目标。

That way, at least incrementally, we make that progress and we get to where we need to be.

这是来自宾夕法尼亚州的共和党国会议员布莱恩·菲茨帕特里克和来自纽约州的民主党国会议员汤姆·斯瓦齐。

That is Republican congressman Brian Fitzpatrick of Pennsylvania and Democratic congressman Tom Swazy of New York.

他们是解决问题核心小组的联合主席。

They are co chairs of the Problem Solvers Caucus.

谢谢你们和我们交谈。

Thanks for talking to us.

好的。

Yep.

谢谢。

Thank you.

是的。

Yeah.

谢谢。

Thanks.

本集由杰森·富勒和埃琳娜·伯内特制作，由克里斯托弗·因塔利亚塔、萨米·亚尼根、凯尔西·斯内尔和纳迪亚·兰西剪辑。

This episode was produced by Jason Fuller and Elena Burnett and edited by Christopher Intaliata, Sami Yanigan, Kelsey Snell, and Nadia Lansi.

本集还特别采访了萨姆·格林格雷斯。

It featured additional reporting by Sam Gringless.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这是来自NPR的《就此而言》。

It's Consider This from NPR.

我是斯科特·迪特罗。

I'm Scott Detreau.