加文·纽森表示，民主党“必须以火攻火”

加文·纽森正在完成他作为加州州长的最后一年任期。

Gavin Newsom is finishing up his final year as governor of California.

但最近，他一直在全国各地巡回，为中期选举前鼓舞选民。

But lately, he's been touring the country to energize voters ahead of the midterm elections.

很高兴见到你。

Good to see you.

你好啊，加文。

I say hello, Gavin.

很高兴见到你。

Nice see you.

本周，我们在南卡罗来纳州的乡村地区与他进行了会面。

This week, we caught up with him in rural South Carolina.

这是一个非凡的时刻。

It's an extraordinary moment.

他正在一个连续两次选举都投票支持特朗普总统的县为民主党拉票。

He was stumping for Democrats in a county that voted for president Trump in the last two elections.

唐纳德·特朗普知道他在中期选举中会惨败。

Donald Trump knows he's going to get crushed in the midterm election.

他知道他会惨败。

He knows he's going to get crushed.

纽森表示，这种基层工作将帮助民主党夺回权力。

Newsom says this is the kind of grassroots work that will help Democrats reclaim power.

县一级的选举很重要。

County races matter.

州级选举很重要。

State races matter.

你很重要。

You matter.

市议员很重要。

City council members matter.

市长很重要。

Mayors matter.

现在，加文·纽森尚未正式宣布参加2028年总统大选，但他繁忙的行程无疑像极了一位总统候选人，而目前他被广泛视为最具潜力的候选人之一。

Now Gavin Newsom has not officially announced that he's running for president in 2028, but his busy travel schedule certainly resembles that of a presidential hopeful, and he is, at the moment, widely considered a leading potential candidate.

他还推出了一本新回忆录，名为《急迫的年轻男子》。

He's also out with a new memoir called Young Man in a Hurry.

书中讲述了他童年时期的经历、与阅读障碍的抗争，以及他的政治崛起之路。

It tells a story of his childhood, his struggles with dyslexia, and his political rise.

请想一想。

Consider this.

加文·纽森如今是民主党中最响亮的声音之一。

Gavin Newsom is one of the loudest voices in the Democratic party right now.

他通过政策和自己那些刷屏式的全大写社交媒体帖子，积极反驳特朗普的主张。

He's pushing back on president Trump with his policies and his own viral all caps social media posts.

但这位加州州长的下一步会是什么？

But what is the California governor's next move?

来自NPR，我是艾尔莎·程。

From NPR, I'm Elsa Cheng.

这是来自NPR的‘考虑一下’。

It's consider this from NPR.

在担任加州州长的最后一年里，加文·纽森花了很多时间待在加州之外。

In his final year as governor of California, Gavin Newsom has been spending a lot of time outside of California.

就在上个月，他前往德国，参加了慕尼黑安全会议，与全球领导人会面。

In just the last month, he was in Germany meeting with global leaders at the Munich Security Conference.

之后，他又前往英国，签署了一项新的清洁能源协议。

After that, he was in The UK signing a new clean energy pact.

而在过去的几天里，他走访了美国南部，宣传自己的新回忆录《急躁的年轻男子》，同时穿插了一系列活动，为南卡罗来纳州曼宁等地的民主党地方候选人拉票。

And then over the last few days, he's been touring the American South talking about his new memoir, young man in a hurry, all while folding in a string of events to rally voters for local Democratic candidates in places like Manning, South Carolina.

我认为民主党绝不能放弃对红色州和乡村地区的关注。

I think it's really important for the Democratic party not to give up on red states and rural parts of the country.

我已经这样做了好几年了。

And I've been doing this for years now.

我曾经有一个专门专注于此的团队。

I had a pack that's exclusively focused.

密西西比、阿拉巴马、阿肯色，你知道的，我们会在这些地方待上一两天，确保支持当地的民主党事业。

Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas, where, you know, we spend a day or two in the way someplace else and, make sure we're supporting local democratic causes.

你现在正在做新书巡讲。

You're on book tour right now.

通常当人们打算竞选总统时，都会写一本自传。

Often when people are planning to run for president, they write an autobiography.

你的新回忆录本周上市了。

Your new memoir is out this week.

为什么现在觉得是向大家讲述你人生故事的合适时机？

Why does now feel like the right time to be telling everybody your life story?

我很感谢你提出这个问题。

Well, I appreciate the question.

你知道，他们可能会写自传，但不会写成这样的。

You know, they may write an autobiography, but not like this.

你这话是什么意思？

What do you mean?

你的书有什么不同？

What's different about yours?

这有点不一样。

This is a little different.

我的意思是，这本书相当自我批评。

I mean, this is pretty self critical.

它非常深刻地反思。

This is very deeply reflective.

而且我写这本书的时候并没有卸任。

And it's not I'm not out of office when I'm writing this.

这不是坐在摇椅上回首往事，而是一个机会，让我谈谈自己发现自我的旅程。

This is not looking back in the rocking chair, but it was an opportunity to talk about my own journey in terms of discovering who I am.

它叫《急躁的年轻男子》，一部发现之旅的回忆录。

It's it's called Young Man in a Hurry, a memoir of discovery.

我读这本书时第一次了解到的一件事是，你小时候觉得自己像个书呆子。

One of the things that I learned about you for the first time when I was reading this book was how you kind of felt like a dork growing up.

我的意思是，你在高中时被欺负过。

I mean, you were bullied in high school.

你一直在思考如何重塑自己的形象，这最终催生了你如今标志性的发型的由来。

You wondered how to remake your image, which led to the whole origin story of your now famous hairstyle.

是的。

Yeah.

你读到了这一点。

You read that.

我读到了。

I read that.

你决定跳过。

You decided Skip

那个。

that.

好吧，这正是我想问你的，因为你决定想看起来像皮尔斯·布洛斯南

Well, this is what I wanna ask you because you decided you wanted to look like Pierce Brosby

是的。

Yeah.

来自电视剧《雷明顿的交易》。

From the TV show Remington's deal.

解释为什么这能解决你青少年时期的问题。

Who explain why that was the solution to your teenage problems

当时是这样。

at the time.

你用了‘书呆子’这个词。

You used the word dork.

我姐姐也用过这个词，她说我开始打扮时看起来就像个书呆子。

It was also used by my sister who said I looked like one when I started showing

你当时并没有帮她应对高中时期的困境。

you weren't helping her luck in high school.

实际上，她说，她直接给了我钱去买牛仔裤，因为她对我高中时总穿着西装到处走感到非常尴尬。

I was actually she said, literally, she gave me she gave me money to buy jeans because she was so embarrassed I was walking around in suits in high school.

听我说，你知道，我觉得当时是这样，有人说过，我觉得是王尔德，在《男孩的生活》里，他说，你知道，人生的第一个阶段，我们都会摆出一种姿态。

Look, I I, you know, I think it was I don't you know, somebody once said, Oscar Wilde, I think he said in boys life, he said, you know, the first phase of life we all, you know, have a pose.

我想我当时就是在装样子。

And I guess I was posing.

你知道，我不清楚自己是谁。

You know, and I didn't know who I was.

我正在经历一个自我发现的过程。

I was going through a process of discovery.

真的，那里有个有趣的章节讲到发现Dippity Doo，这东西

Mean, quite literally there's a funny chapter in there about discovering dippity doo, which

就是，你知道，他们的工作。

is, you know, their job.

不管那是什么东西。

Whatever that substance is.

不管那是什么令人作呕的半透明物质

Whatever that just disgusting translucent

这种物质粘住了，这么说吧。

substance stuck, so to speak.

是的。

Yeah.

这可以说是一种蜕变。

And it was sort a metamorphosis.

从二年级到三年级，我记得自己开始戴上假面具， literally穿上西装。

It was a you know, I remember from sophomore to junior year, and then I started to, you know, put on a mask and quite literally put on a suit.

是的。

Yeah.

穿上衣服，你知道的，我当时在模仿别人，就像孩子那样，试图探索我是谁。

Put on you know, And, you know, I was sort of trying to emulate other people, just testing, you know, as as kids do, trying to discover who I am.

但这个过程一直持续到今天。

But, you know, that process continues to this day.

我的意思是，你的人生一直处在一种双重现实之间：和单亲妈妈一起长大，偶尔又接近那个贫困家庭。

I mean, you did live sort of a split screen reality between growing up with your single mom and then the occasional proximity to the ghetto family.

你确实承认这一点。

You do acknowledge that.

对。

Right.

你从中受益了。

That you were a beneficiary of that proximity.

所以我觉得在这本书里，你非常努力地把自己描绘成一个局外人，但你也确实承认自己也曾身处其中。

And so I felt that in this book, do take great pains to paint yourself in some aspects as an outsider, but you do also acknowledge that you've been on the inside as well.

对吧？

Right?

比如你和盖蒂家族、佩洛西家族都有亲属关系。

Like you have had these family connections to the Gettys, family connections to the Pelosi's.

而且说实话，到这个时候，州长，你已经成名了一半的人生。

And frankly, by this time, governor, you've been famous for half of your life.

所以我的问题，我最基本的问题是：普通美国人为什么应该觉得能与你产生共鸣？

So I guess my question, my basic question for you is why should ordinary Americans feel that they can relate to you?

不。

No.

不。

No.

我并不是想强加什么。

I'm not trying to force feed anything.

我只是在分享我的故事、我的生活、我母亲的生活经历，以及她与阅读和学习障碍抗争的故事。

I'm just sharing my story, my life, story of my mom's life, story of her struggles, story of my struggles as it relates to reading and learning disabilities.

你知道，我在书中描绘了一个始终在学业上挣扎、频繁转学的人的形象，而今天我依然无法朗读演讲稿，因为我根本读不了。

And, you know, I painted a picture that I painted detail in the book of someone that always struggled academically that was bouncing around different schools that does not read a speech today because I couldn't read a speech today.

我并没有暗示什么，只是想展现一些人们可能看不到的细节：紧张的手心出汗、焦虑、不安全感、努力扮演不是自己的人、犯错、从错误中学习，同时也描绘了我直到写这本书之前一无所知的家庭历史。

I'm not suggesting anything, but I'm just offering a glimpse of some of the things that people may not see of sweaty hands, of anxiety, insecurity, of trying to be someone I'm not, of making mistakes, learning from those mistakes, and and and painted a picture of also a family history that I knew nothing about until I wrote the book.

你不仅写了这本书，还大约一年前推出了一档播客。

You've not only written this book, you have launched a podcast about a year ago.

是的。

Yes.

一档名为《这就是加文·纽森》的播客。

A podcast called This is Gavin Newsom.

你一直努力邀请保守派嘉宾参与这档播客，比如已故的查理·柯克、史蒂夫·班农、本·夏皮罗。

And you've made a real effort to bring in conservative guests on this podcast like the late Charlie Kirk, like Steve Bannon, Ben Shapiro.

是的。

Yeah.

你为什么觉得邀请保守派声音参与这档播客如此重要？

Why has that been important to you to bring conservative voices on this podcast?

这就是加文·纽森。

This is Gavin Newsom.

这就是真实的我。

It's who I am.

敞开双手，而非紧握拳头。

Open open hand, not a closed fist.

我的意思是，我之前说过，你知道，我们刚在这里举办了一场集会。

I mean, I said it, you know, we just had a rally here.

我说过，离婚不是一个选择。

I said divorce is not an option.

真的不是。

It's just not.

你得

You have

作为国家，好好相处，你是这个意思吗？

to get along, you mean, as a country?

作为人类。

As human beings.

这真的让人精疲力尽。

It's just exhausting.

对于有人批评你邀请这样的嘉宾是在向右翼献媚，你怎么看？

Make of the criticism that bringing guests like that onto your podcast is just pandering to the right?

嗯，我觉得这种说法是公平的。

Well, I I think it's fair.

这意味着，正因如此，你不必听。

It means and that's why you don't have to listen.

我的意思是，我刚开始做这个播客时， literally 没有任何下载量，也没有一个听众。

I mean, I, you know, I started the podcast with quite literally not one download and not one listener.

我邀请查理·柯克是因为我想理解是什么驱使着他。

And I brought on Charlie Kirk because I wanna understand what motivated him.

我想了解他为何能建立起一个如此成功的组织，激励了大量年轻人，尤其是那些民主党的支持者转向特朗普阵营的年轻人。

I wanna understand why he had built such a successful organization that powered young men, particularly young men who the Democratic party have lost to Donald Trump's side.

我认为理解这一点很重要。

And I, you know, I thought it was important to understand that.

有些人觉得这很冒犯，

And, you know, some people thought it was offensive,

但仅仅因为你在节目中邀请了像他这样的人，

but just because someone like him on you.

是的。

Yeah.

但你知道，仅仅因为我们不想关注，并不意味着这些问题就会消失。

But it you know, just because you you know, just because we don't wanna focus on doesn't mean they go away.

所以，这就是我的本性。

And so it's just it's my it's who I am.

你知道，我嫁进了一个庞大的共和党家庭，我非常爱我的共和党岳父。

You know, I I married into a big republican family, and I love my republican father-in-law.

好的。

Okay.

这就是为什么我身处这个红色州的乡村地区。

And and and and and that's why I'm here in a rural part of a red state.

好的。

Okay.

我想了解你的政治立场，因为我想弄清楚你在这里的整体策略。

I wanna understand who you are politically because I'm trying to understand your overall strategy here.

一方面，你邀请了像已故的查理·柯克、史蒂夫·班农这样的人上你的播客。

On one hand, you are bringing people like the late Charlie Kirk, like Steve Bannon onto your podcast.

另一方面，你却在嘲笑特朗普总统。

On the other hand, you're trolling president Trump Yeah.

在X平台上。

On x.

是的。

Yeah.

你嘲笑他的写作风格。

You mock his writing style.

你嘲笑他的外表。

You mock his body.

你在销售MAGA品牌

You are selling MAGA branded

护膝。

knee pads.

身体直播。

Body streaming.

让我再确认一下。

I don't let me double check that.

你们所有这些MAGA品牌护膝，就是为了迎合特朗普的卑躬屈膝吗？

All you these MAGA branded knee pads are there for all your groveling to Trump needs?

我认为，对于大学、律师事务所，以及大型企业领袖和主流媒体公司来说，也是如此。

I think guys for the universities, the law firms, that's for major corporate leaders as well as major media companies.

是的。

Yes.

这些深层次的回应是为他们准备的。

Those deep answer for them.

好吧。

Okay.

你如何调和你在播客中与这些保守派进行的倾听会，与那些幼稚的嘲讽之间的矛盾？

How do you square those playground insults with the listening sessions that you're having with these conservatives on the podcast?

因为我觉得你可以两者兼得。

Because I think you can be both and.

但如果你是

But what if you're

把人当作你真正相信的东西来利用吗？

using people as to what you sincerely believe?

比如，为什么不直接呈现一个加文·纽森？

Like, why not present just one Gavin Newsom?

所有平台都保持一致的语气。

I I One consistent tone across all platforms.

我是这样的。

I am.

一致的语气是什么？

What's the consistent tone?

我就是我。

I'm who I am.

我始终如一地做自己。

I'm consistently me.

我对别人感兴趣。

I'm interested in other people.

我对让他们运作起来的原因感兴趣。

I'm interested in what makes them work.

我不想居高临下地跟人说话，也不忽略他们。

I don't wanna I don't talk down or past people.

我相信我们所有人都希望被保护、被连接、被尊重。

I believe all of us wanna be protected, connected, respected.

我们所有人都需要被爱，也需要去爱。

All of us need to be loved and and and need to love.

对我来说，这是普遍的。

To me, that's universal.

但你不觉得你对特朗普总统说话时是在居高临下吗？

But you don't think you're talking down to president Trump on

在你的前账号上？

your ex account?

我是在给特朗普总统照镜子，以牙还牙，反击这个霸凌者。

I'm putting well, I'm putting a mirror up to to president Trump, and I'm fighting fire with fire, and I'm punching a bully back in the in the mouth.

同时，我也是那个走上停机坪迎接他来洛杉矶的人，以便他能支持那些因野火而流离失所的人们。

And at the same time, I'm the same guy walked out on the tarmac to welcome him into LA so that he can support the people that were torn asunder because of those wildfires.

我是那个进入椭圆形办公室、成为九十年来首位与他对话的民主党人，并试图做同样事情的人。

I was the one who was in the Oval Office, the first Democrat for ninety minutes trying to do the same.

这就是我。

That's who I am.

那我只想问你一下。

Well, I'm just gonna ask you.

你是否会竞选总统？

Are you gonna run for president or not?

我老实说不知道。

I honestly don't know.

但我明白，我可能犯了个错误，因为当时被问了一个不同的问题。

I but, you know, I I made a probably a mistake where I was asked a different question.

嗯。

Mhmm.

有人问我，说你有没有考虑过这件事？

Someone asked me, said, have you ever thought about it?

我一时脱口而出，说有。

And I got caught by saying, yes.

我确实想过，但只是短暂地，非常短暂地。

I thought about it, but briefly, but briefly.

所以我不确定。

So I don't know.

是什么让你对这个想法退缩？

What makes you back away from the thought?

只是去想想这件事。

Just to think about it.

你知道的，这需要谦逊。

It's, you know, there's humility.

我的意思是，这本书讲的全是谦逊。

I mean, this whole book is about humility.

它讲的是恩典。

It's about grace.

它讲的是，嘿。

It's about, hey.

我仍然是那个候选人。

I'm still that candidate.

被广泛认为是下一任总统的领先潜在候选人之一，是的。

Widely considered one of the leading potential candidates Yes.

我们走着瞧吧。

We'll see.

下一任总统，所以你目前所做的，似乎有些成效，是的。

For president in the next So two whatever you're doing right now, something seems to be working Yeah.

至少目前是这样。

At least right now.

你觉得那会是什么？

What do you think that might be?

就是信念。

Just conviction.

就是放手。

Just letting it go.

让它去吧，只是把一切都摊开来说。

Let it it's just putting all out there.

判好坏球。

Calling balls and strikes.

我要跑110码短跑。

And I'm gonna run the 110 yard dash.

我作为州长有个任期截止日期，我们拭目以待。

I gotta sell by date as governor, and we'll see what happens.

但在这个时刻，我不会当旁观者，我会尽我所能直面挑战。

But I'm not I'm not going to be a bystander at this moment, and I'm just doing everything I can to meet it head on.

有些人会接受它，而另一些人则会拒绝它，这没关系。

And some people embrace it, and others will reject it, and that's okay.

加利福尼亚州州长加文·纽森，非常感谢您抽出时间。

California governor Gavin Newsom, thank you very much for your time.

很高兴与您交谈。

It was a pleasure.

谢谢您的到来。

Thanks for coming out.

本集由贾纳基·梅塔和康纳·多诺万制作。

This episode was produced by Janaki Mehta and Connor Donovan.

本集由克里斯托弗·因蒂利亚塔剪辑。

It was edited by Christopher Inteliata.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这是来自NPR的《深思》。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是张尔莎。

I'm Elsa Chang.