州长蒂姆·沃尔兹对特朗普缓和移民打击力度的计划持怀疑态度

明尼苏达州的紧张局势正在加剧。

Tensions are high in Minnesota.

可耻。

Shame.

可耻。

Shame.

可耻。

Shame.

但联邦政府计划何时撤回联邦官员并降低局势紧张程度？

But where do plans stand for the federal government to draw back federal officers from the state and deescalate?

周四被问及此事时，特朗普总统表示

When asked about this on Thursday, president Trump said

关于明尼苏达州。

of Minnesota.

保护我们的国家安全。

Keep our country safe.

我们会尽一切努力保障我们的国家安全部署。

We'll do whatever we can to keep our country safe.

所以你们不撤回吗？

So you're not pulling back?

不。

No.

不。

No.

完全不会。

Not at all.

这发生在周四白宫边境事务主管汤姆·霍曼发表上述言论数小时后。

Which came hours after White House border czar Tom Homan said this Thursday.

我目前的主要任务是根据我与你们州和地方领导人的良好沟通进行撤军。

My main focus now is drawdown based upon the great conversations I've had with your state and local leaders.

霍曼还表示，这取决于地方领导人接下来的行动。

Homan also said it depends on what local leaders do next.

我们不会放弃总统在移民执法方面的使命。

We are not surrendering the president's mission in immigration enforcement.

让我们把这一点说清楚。

Let's make that clear.

当我们看到这种合作发生时，重新部署就会随之进行。

As we see that cooperation happen, then the redeployment will will happen.

请考虑一下。

Consider this.

明尼苏达州州长对政府关于缓和移民打击的诸多说法持怀疑态度。

Minnesota's governor is skeptical about many things the administration is saying about deescalating its immigration crackdown.

我知道我面对的是谁。

I know who I'm dealing with.

我知道他们不会信守承诺。

I know that they're not going to keep their word.

接下来，我们将与民主党籍明尼苏达州州长蒂姆·沃尔斯对话。

Coming up, we speak with Democratic Minnesota governor Tim Walls.

来自NPR，我是胡安娜·萨默斯。

From NPR, I'm Juana Summers.

公共媒体依赖您的支持，以确保您所依赖的报道和节目持续繁荣。

Public media counts on your support to ensure that the reporting and programs you depend on thrive.

今天成为定期捐赠者，即可获得访问20多个NPR播客的专属权限。

Make a recurring donation today to get special access to more than 20 NPR podcasts.

专属福利包括无广告收听、独家剧集、提前访问等。

Perks like sponsor free listening, bonus episodes, early access, and more.

所以，今天就前往 +.npr.org 支持您喜爱的内容吧。

So start supporting what you love today at +.npr.org.

情人节即将到来，为您的NPR爱好者挑选的完美礼物，就在NPR商店等着您。

Valentine's Day is coming up, and the perfect gift for the NPR lover in your life is waiting at the NPR shop.

从适合悠闲早晨的毛衣和马克杯，到我们的小演播室连帽衫，每位NPR粉丝都能找到心仪之选。

From cozy sweaters and mugs made for slow mornings to our tiny desk hoodie, there's something for every NPR fan.

每笔购买都在支持公共媒体和您热爱的新闻报道。

Each purchase supports public media and the journalism you love.

在 shopnpr.org 找到一份有意义的礼物。

Find something meaningful at shopnpr.org.

买房很难。

It is hard to get a house.

凑齐首付款，太艰难了。

Getting that down payment together, Brutal.

你为了凑够买房的首付款，被派往吉布提了吗？

You shipped off to Djibouti to afford a down payment for a house?

是的，先生。

Yes, sir.

百分之百。

100%.

资金短缺，房价高昂。

Unplanted money, the high price of housing.

特朗普政府正试图如何应对这一问题？会有效吗？

What the Trump administration is trying to do about it, and will it work?

请在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台收听。

Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

这是来自NPR的《考虑一下》。

It's consider this from NPR.

今天早些时候，我与明尼苏达州州长蒂姆·沃尔斯在州议会大厦会面，讨论了该州的移民执法问题。

Earlier today, I sat down with governor Tim Walls at the Minnesota state capitol to talk about ICE enforcement in his state.

以下是我们的部分对话，您可以在NPR的YouTube频道和npr.org上观看完整采访视频。

Here is some of our conversation, and you can watch full video of the interview on NPR's YouTube channel and at npr.org.

我想先从宏观角度开始，为那些不身处明尼苏达州的人们做个介绍。

I just wanna start big picture for people who are not in Minnesota as you and I are.

目前贵州的‘地铁突击行动’进展如何？这与您最近几天与总统及政府官员交谈时所听到的情况一致吗？

What is the status of Operation Metro Surge in your state right now, and does that align with what you have been hearing from the president, administration officials that you have been speaking with in recent days?

我认为自从我周一与总统交谈以来，情况没有太大变化。

I would say since my conversation on Monday with the President, I don't think there's been a lot of change.

地面上的行动减少了，但我没有收到任何迹象表明人数有所下降。

There's less smoke on the ground, but I have no indication that the numbers have come down.

我想说，过去一两天里的事态发展让我感到担忧。

I will say I'm concerned over the last day or so the developments.

当汤姆·霍尔曼谈论部署，并将明尼苏达州称为战场时，这并无助益。

It's not helpful when Tom Holman talks about deployments and he referred to the state of Minnesota as a theater.

这些词语通常用于战争和对外国的军事部署中。

That's words that are used in wars and in deployments to foreign countries.

而就在昨晚，当总统被问及是否在撤军时，他回答说没有。

And again, the last night when the President was asked if he was drawing down, he said no.

我相信这一点。

I believe it.

我相信他说的这部分内容。

I believe that part about what he said.

因此，就目前而言，感觉像是暂停了，但这里的人们之间的紧张情绪和怀疑情绪依然很高。

So as far as it goes, it feels like there is a pause, but the tension amongst people here and the skepticism amongst people here is high.

我一再重申，我们希望找到一条与他们共同前进的道路，而这只能基于事实来实现。

And I have reiterated time and time again that we want to find a way forward with this and can only do that factually with them.

但我们需要某种行动。

But we need some type of action.

让我问你一个问题。

Let me ask you this.

这位总统和政府一直在不断改变主意和信息。

This is a president and administration that is constantly changing its mind and its message.

本周早些时候，你听到总统说他想稍微缓和一下局势。

Earlier this week, you heard the president say he wanted to deescalate a little.

正如你指出的，你刚刚听到总统说，不撤回。

And as you point out, you just heard the president say, you know, no pullback.

当你不知道下一步会发生什么，不知道他们会转向哪个方向时，你如何带领你的州带领明尼苏达州的民众？

How do you lead your state to lead the people here in Minnesota when you don't know what's coming next, you don't know what direction they're gonna turn?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为你应该坚守我们的价值观。

Well, I think you stay grounded in our values.

我们坚守关爱邻里的信念。

We stay grounded in, caring for our neighbors.

我们坚守正义重要的信念。

We stay grounded in that justice matters.

我们坚守在面对这一切时保持和平，并鼓励人们继续拍照，记录下这里发生的一切。

We stay grounded in staying peaceful in the face of this and grounded in encouraging people to continue to take pictures, dictate what was here.

我这么说过，而且我甚至认为总统本人也不会不同意这一点。

And I said it and I don't even think the president himself would disagree with this.

他们并未改变大规模驱逐的目标。

They have not changed their goal of mass deportations.

他们或许会稍微调整策略，但这并不改变其根本使命——在社区中制造巨大的恐惧与混乱。

They may try and change their tactics a little bit, but it doesn't change the underlying mission here, which is to cause great fear and chaos in communities.

坦白说，这种方式在真正针对他们所说的最恶劣分子方面非常低效。

And to be very honest, very ineffective in actually targeting what they say is the worst of the worst.

我敢肯定，我们五岁的小儿子利亚姆，就是他们所说的最恶劣分子。

I'm pretty sure Liam, our little five year old, was the worst of the worst.

正如世界所了解到的，雷妮和亚历克斯不仅不是最坏的人，他们可能是最好的人。

And as the world has found out, not only are Renee and Alex not the worst of the worst, they might be the best of the best.

我们听到了边境事务的汤姆·霍曼在这里州发表讲话。

We heard Borders Art Tom Homan, who is here in your state.

他发言时似乎暗示，他希望得到你和其他地方领导人的合作。

He spoke and he seemed to suggest that he wanted to see cooperation from you and other local leaders.

他提出希望看到的是，明尼阿波利斯-圣保罗地区抗议者和活动人士的干扰减少。

And one of the things that he suggested he wanted to see is a reduction in interference from protesters and activists on the ground here in the Twin Cities.

我们正在讲话，我想指出的是，今天明尼苏达州在全国范围内举行了总罢工，你们是否愿意就示威活动达成任何协议？

We're speaking, I just wanna note, on a day when there was a general strike here in Minnesota across the country, are there any agreements on demonstrations that you're willing to make?

我不会在第一修正案上做出妥协。

I'm not going to compromise on the First Amendment.

我不会允许汤姆·霍曼将人民和平表达对政府不满的宪法权利歪曲为不当行为。

I'm not going to allow Tom Holman to characterize what are constitutionally protected rights of peaceful expression of grievance against the government.

这是我们民主制度的基石。

It's foundational to our democracy.

他们正试图通过和平抗议来扭曲现实。

They are trying to twist reality here with peaceful protest.

他们曾对亚历克斯这么做，以后还会回去翻你的幼儿园年鉴之类的东西，试图诋毁你。

They tried to do it with Alex and they will go back, you know, they will dig up your kindergarten yearbook or whatever to try and discredit you.

听我说，这个问题其实没什么好争论的。

Look, I think there's really little debate in this.

如果没有那段视频，亚历克斯和丽娜都会被认定为恐怖分子。

Had there been no video of that, Alex and Renee would both be deemed terrorists.

他们的家人现在可能已经被拘押了，而这些谎言还会继续被散布。

Their families would probably be detained by now and they would continue to spout these lies.

克里斯蒂·诺姆仍在继续为他们辩护。

Christy Noem continues to go on and try and defend.

不过，我得承认她这一点。

Now I will give her this.

她现在可能是一名律师之类的。

She may be as a lawyer or something now.

我不知道。

I don't know.

她说她只是在执行命令。

She's saying she's just taking marching orders.

我提醒大家，这算不上什么辩护。

I remind everyone, that's no defense.

在执行他们所做的事情时，这算不上什么辩护。

That's no defense in carrying out what they've done.

我要指出，政府不仅指责了抗议者和观察员。

I'll note that the administration has not only faulted protesters and observers.

总检察长潘·邦迪上周写了一封信，她 personally 批评你称联邦执法机构为特朗普时代的盖世太保。

Attorney general Pan Bondi wrote a letter last week, she criticized you personally for calling federal law enforcement, and I'm quoting here, Trump's modern day Gestapo.

你如何回应她对你的言辞以及其他州官员言论的指责，说这些言论在她看来还不够？

How do you respond to her accusation that your rhetoric and remarks from other state officials aren't doing enough in her words?

这些是她用来支持那些冒着生命危险保护美国人并维护法治的男男女女的说法吗？

These are her words to support the men and women who are risking their lives to protect Americans and uphold the rule of law?

我从未说过任何不同于和平抗议的话。

Well, I've never said anything other than to be peacefully protesting.

我会坚持我的说法。

And I'll stand by my words.

我必须使用英语来描述我所看到的情况。

I have to use the English language to describe what I'm seeing.

在美国，我几乎找不到与我们所见相似的描述。

And in America, there are very little analogous descriptions I can give to what we're seeing.

所以我只能用我词汇库中的词语来描述我所看到的，我认为每个在周六早上醒来并目睹这一切的人，都会得出同样的结论。

So I'm using what I have in my vocabulary to describe what I see and I think everybody who woke up Saturday morning and witnessed that probably would come up to the same conclusion.

听好了，总检察长并不是一个严肃的人。

Look, the Attorney General is not a serious person.

然后我们看穿了这一点，他们把心里话说了出来。

And then I think we saw through this and they said the quiet part out loud.

我明白我的职责是，我必须再次强调，在一个正常的世界里，我的职责是以一种沉稳、有政治家风范的方式应对此事。

I understand my job is to I need to and again, dealing with what would be a normal world, my job is to approach this measured to be a statesman.

但我并不天真。

But I'm not naive.

我打交道的不是这样的人。

That's not who I'm dealing with.

这些人根本不是那样的。

That is not who these folks are.

所以对美国，我只想说，我会继续发声。

So to America, would just say I'm going to continue to speak up.

我会继续表达我的愤怒与厌恶，并期望帕姆·邦迪能成为正义的独立声音，而不是随波逐流。

I'm going to continue to express my anger and disgust and my expectations that Pam Bondi be an independent voice for justice and not take their march.

你看，总统早就暗示了这里正在发生的事。

Look, the president telegraphed what was happening here.

这关乎报复。

This was about retribution.

这意味着对明尼苏达人民的报复。

And that means retribution to the people of Minnesota.

这是对我们做事方式的报复。

It's retribution to the way we do things.

我认为明尼苏达州的许多人对此心知肚明。

And I think many people here in Minnesota knows this.

他们无法忍受这个州对移民的包容态度。

They cannot stand that this state honors immigration.

不过，我还是想跟你探讨一下当前的政治环境和我们最近看到的言论。

I do want to push you though on the political environment, the rhetoric that we're seeing lately.

我清楚地注意到，你和我正在这个州进行这场对话，而这里曾发生过州议员梅丽莎·霍特曼——另一位民主党议员——的事件。

It is not lost on me that you and I are having this conversation in a state where we saw state representative Melissa Hortman, another democratic lawmaker.

伊尔汗·奥马尔。

Ilhan Omar.

梅丽莎·霍特曼被杀害了。

Melissa Hortman was killed.

这周国会议员伊尔汗·奥马尔发生了什么事？

What happened with Ilhan Omar, congresswoman, this week?

是的

Yeah.

你有没有觉得自己有责任帮助降低我们所听到的这种言论的激烈程度？

Do you feel at all that you have a responsibility to help bring the temperature of the rhetoric Yes.

我们正在听到的，还有

That we're hearing and

这就是我为什么一直强调和平。

That's why I talk about peacefulness all the time.

这就是我为什么确保我们始终在法律框架内行事。

That's why I talk to make sure that we're staying within the bounds of the law.

我不会说，‘你们在把人推倒在地、把枪抵在他们头上时，能不能温和一点。’

I'm not going to say, gee, you guys should just be a little softer here when you push someone to the ground and put a gun near their head.

我会找到能够表达我内心愤怒的言辞。

I'm going to find the words that express the outrage that I'm feeling.

是的，我一直在思考这个问题，而且我必须对你坦诚相告。

Yes, I think about it and I got to be candid with you.

我可能做得还不错，没有说出内心真正对这些人的想法，试图去找到那种平衡。

I'm probably doing a pretty good job of not speaking what's truly on my heart about these people to try and find that.

而这正是政治的一部分。

And that is part of politics.

这是你推动事情进展的方式。

That is part of how you get things done.

但在这个时刻，这件事已经超越了政治，成为了一个根本性的道德问题。

But in this moment, this has this has transcended politics to be a fundamental moral issue.

所以如果你问我，我会不会向专制主义妥协？

So if you're asking me, am I going to compromise with authoritarianism?

不会。

Nope.

我会不会在公民自由被侵蚀的问题上妥协？

Am I going to compromise on an erosion of civil liberties?

不会。

Nope.

因此，我将坚决拒绝这种双方都对此负责的说法。

So I'm gonna go ahead and reject that both sides are responsible for this.

有一方明显是造成这一情况的根源。

There's one clear side that's doing this.

昨天，在《综合考量》节目中，我的同事采访了威斯康星州共和党参议员罗恩·约翰逊，他提到了你。

Yesterday, on All Things Considered, my colleague spoke with Wisconsin Republican Senator Ron Johnson, and he invoked you.

所以我想问问你，他对明尼苏达州当前局势所说的话。

So I'd like to ask you about something that he said speaking about the situation here in Minnesota.

有些人必须被逮捕，因为他们是罪犯、杀人犯、强奸犯、性犯罪者和毒品贩子，必须被拘禁或驱逐。

There are people that need to be apprehended because they're criminals, murderers, rapists, sex human drug traffickers that need to be apprehended and either jailed or deported.

而目前，这些庇护城市以及弗莱市长和沃尔茨州长等人正在抵制这些行动，这正是导致悲剧的原因。

And that right now is what these sanctuary cities and people like Mayor Fry and Governor Walts are resisting and that have led to the tragedy.

如果当时没有有组织地抵制这些执法行动，明尼阿波利斯的那两个人本应还活着。

Had there not been an organized effort to resist those law enforcement actions, those two individuals in Minneapolis should still be alive.

沃尔茨州长，你对此有何回应？

Governor Waltz, how would you respond to that?

这是错误的，我确实对此有了解。

Well, that's false, and I I do have history of knowing this.

约翰逊参议员是个傻瓜。

Senator Johnson is a fool.

他错了。

He's wrong.

明尼苏达州不是庇护州。

Minnesota is not a sanctuary state.

明尼苏达州的暴力犯罪率位居全美倒数百分之十。

Minnesota is a bottom 10 state for violent crime.

你们有一位美国参议员，又一次，他难道没看视频吗？

You've got a United States senator that once again, does does did he not watch the videos?

他难道没看到那里发生了什么吗？

Did did he not see what happened there?

我为明尼苏达州人民不会退缩、任人踩在脖子上而感到无比自豪。

And I'm just incredibly proud that Minnesotans are not gonna stand back and take the boot to their neck.

他们不会袖手旁观，也不会对自身的责任屈服。

They're not gonna stand back and capitulate on their responsibilities.

我敢肯定，参议员约翰逊在每一次投票中都站在了历史的错误一边。

And I'm pretty sure that Senator Johnson's been on the wrong side of history on every single vote he's taken.

所以我要说，我们威斯康星州的民众与你们有着深厚的共鸣。

So I will say this, the folks of Wisconsin we have deep affinity with.

我可以告诉民众和这个政府，如果他们在威斯康星州也采取同样的做法，将会得到和明尼苏达州完全相似的结果。

I can tell folks and tell this administration if they try the same thing in Wisconsin, they'll get very similar results they're getting in Minnesota.

因此，我并不太看重参议员约翰逊。

So I don't really put much stock into senator Johnson.

我的意思是，我们所有人都清楚，这个州近年来经历了许多，尤其是2020年乔治·弗洛伊德被杀事件。

I mean, it's not lost on any of us that this is a state that has been through a lot in recent years from the killing of George Floyd in 2020.

你们的州现在又成为了一个涉及暴力的新焦点。

Your state's now another flashpoint involving violence.

你提到过，我最近也听你谈到过，明尼阿波利斯社区所遭受的道德伤害。

You've talked about, I've heard you talk about in recent days, the moral outrage done to the Minneapolis community.

州长，您打算如何帮助这里的人们从他们所经历的创伤中恢复？

Governor, how do you intend to help people here heal from the trauma that they are experiencing?

是的，关键是我们的人民会自己做到。

Yeah, well, the thing is our people will do it.

我们是富有韧性的人民。

We are resilient people.

为了澄清一点，总统之所以稍微让步，随后又退缩，是因为街头那些无名无姓的领导者组织了大规模的和平抗议活动。

And just to be clear, the president bending a little bit and then of course backtracking now, the reason that he is bending is because of the faceless, nameless leadership that's on the streets that is organizing peaceful protests at a scale.

您亲眼看到了。

You saw it.

同样地，这也是我们为乔治·弗洛伊德寻求正义的原因——执法必须建立在信任之上。

The same thing is why we needed justice with George Floyd, that policing has to be about trust.

因此，明尼苏达人已经经历过这一切。

So Minnesotans have been through this.

但您说得对。

But you're right.

我们失去了梅丽莎和马克这样的真正璀璨之星，参议员及其妻子也遭到袭击，我们已经经历了太多。

The murder of one of our true shining stars in Melissa and Mark, the attempt on a senator and his wife, we have been through a lot.

在每一起事件中，我们的痛苦都被嘲笑、被轻视。

And in each one of those cases, we're mocked, downplayed.

我们的州正在哀悼。

Our state's grieving.

我和他们一起哀悼。

I'm grieving with them.

但我想我们明白，这超越了我们个人。

But I think what we understand is this is bigger than us.

我想对您的听众说，这种事情在各地都会发生。

And I would just, to your listeners, say this happens everywhere.

维持民主远比试图重新获得民主要容易得多。

It's much easier to hold a democracy than to try and get one back.

我再重复一遍：我们站在历史的正确一边。

And I'm just going to state it that again, I'll ahead and we are on the right side of history.

明尼苏达州州长蒂姆·沃尔斯，非常感谢您接受我们的采访。

Minnesota Governor Tim Walls, thank you so much for sitting down with us.

感谢您讲述这个故事。

Thank you for telling the story.

本集由梅根·林、马特·奥祖和凯伦·扎莫拉制作，音频工程由安迪·哈瑟完成。

This episode was produced by Megan Lim, Matt Ozug, and Karen Zamora with audio engineering by Andy Huthur.

本集由阿什利·布朗和威廉·特鲁普剪辑。

It was edited by Ashley Brown and William Troup.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

感谢我们的《考虑此》Plus 订阅听众，你们支持 NPR 记者的报道，帮助维持公共广播的活力。

And thanks to our Consider This Plus listeners who support the work of NPR journalists and help keep public radio strong.

支持者还能在无广告干扰的情况下收听每一集，并解锁《考虑此》的独家附加集。

Supporters also hear every episode without messages from sponsors and unlock bonus episodes of Consider This.

了解更多，请访问 +.npr.org。

Learn more at +.npr.org.

这是来自NPR的《Consider This》。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是胡安娜·萨默斯。

I'm Juana Summers.

《消息来源与方法》是NPR的国家安全播客。

Sources and methods is NPR's national security podcast.

当世界新闻每小时都在变化时，

When world news changes by

我们帮助你跳出细节，

the hour, we help you zoom out

理解不断变化的联盟、全球热点，以及伊朗、委内瑞拉、格陵兰等地真正发生的事情。

to understand shifting alliances, global flash points, and what is really happening in places like Iran, Venezuela, Greenland.

我们的现场记者串联线索，解释脚下正在改变的世界秩序。

Our reporters on the ground connect the dots to explain a world order changing beneath our feet.

请在NPR应用程序或您收听播客的任何平台收听《消息来源与方法》。

Listen to sources and methods on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

在《哦我的上帝》与斯科特·卡特一起，聆听信徒的心声。

On Ye Gods with Scott Carter, hear from the faithful.

我

I

我告诉我那位非常虔诚的妈妈，她需要去认识耶稣。

told my very Catholic mother that she needs to meet Jesus.

不信教的人。

The faithless.

我真的完全不相信上帝。

I just so don't believe in God.

无畏的人。

And the fearless.

服务他人，与人建立联系。

Serve people, connect with people.

这才是我们蓬勃发展的方式。

That's how we thrive.

如果人生是一场谜题，我们就要去调查。

If life's a mystery, we investigate.

谁干的？

Who done it?

我祈祷幽默之神

I pray that the humor god

无论你在哪儿听播客，都要虔诚地收听《与斯科特·卡特共听诸神》。

Listen religiously to ye gods with Scott Carter wherever you get your podcasts.

想在没有广告中断的情况下收听这个播客吗？

Wanna hear this podcast without sponsor breaks?

亚马逊Prime会员可以通过亚马逊音乐免费收听本节目，或者你也可以支持NPR的重要新闻报道，通过+.npr.org获取《考虑此》Plus版。

Amazon Prime members can listen to consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music, or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this plus at +.npr.org.

网址是+.npr.org。

That's +.npr.org.