一个曾经边缘的理念如何成为特朗普政府的口号

上个月，一名阿富汗国民因在华盛顿特区枪杀两名国民警卫队队员而被起诉后，特朗普总统在社交媒体上写道，引用原话，只有逆向移民才能彻底解决这一局面。

Last month, after an Afghan national was charged in the shooting of two national guardsmen in Washington DC, president Trump wrote on social media, quote, only reverse migration can fully cure the situation.

几天后，在空军一号上，记者们询问总统这番话的含义。

A few days later, aboard Air Force One, reporters asked what the president meant.

他的回应是什么？

His response?

意思是，把那些在我们国家的人弄出去。

It means, get people out that are in our country.

把他们从这里赶出去。

Get them out of here.

这并非特朗普总统第一次使用'逆向移民'或有时被称为'再移民'的这个术语。

This is not the first time president Trump has used this term reverse migration or remigration as it's sometimes referred to.

去年在竞选活动中，他在社交媒体上表示要，引用原话，'把卡马拉的非法移民送回他们的祖国'，然后在括号里注明，引用原话，'也被称为再移民'。

On the campaign trail last year, he said on social media that he would, quote, return Kamala's illegal immigrants to their home countries, and then in parentheses, quote, also known as remigration.

如今，总统的驱逐议程正在全力推进中。

Today, president's the deportation agenda is well underway.

首架遣返航班已降落在关塔那摩湾。

The first deportation flight has landed at Guantanamo Bay.

这是将数百名委内瑞拉人遣返至萨尔瓦多。

It's deportations of hundreds of Venezuelans to El Salvador.

一架从美国飞往古巴的遣返航班内部情况。

Inside a deportation flight from The United States to Cuba.

本周末阻止了数百名无人陪伴移民儿童的遣返。

Touch This weekend blocked the deportation of hundreds of unaccompanied migrant children.

自国民警卫队枪击事件后，美国进一步限制了来自19个国家的移民。

Since the National Guard shooting, The US has further curtailed immigration from 19 countries.

一些极端主义专家表示，他们惊讶地看到'再迁移'一词进入美国政策，因其与白人民族主义有关联。

Some extremism experts say they are surprised to see the term remigration enter US policy because of its ties to white nationalism.

海蒂·贝里奇就职于全球反仇恨与极端主义项目。

Heidi Beirich is with the Global Project Against Hate and Extremism.

当我想到这一点时，我无法相信美国政府会使用源自白人至上主义者的术语。

When I think about this, I cannot believe that a federal government in The United States would use terms that come from white supremacists.

这种思想要成为主流总会存在某种障碍。

There's always been some sort of barrier to that being mainstreamed.

想想看，特朗普总统两届任期的标志之一就是努力阻止移民并驱逐非法身份者。

Consider this, one hallmark of both terms of president Trump has been an effort to stop immigration and to deport those without legal status.

接下来，我们将探讨特朗普政府用来描述其议程的极右翼概念。

Coming up, a look at the far right concept that the Trump administration has been using to describe its agenda.

我是NPR的Elsa Cheng。

From NPR, I'm Elsa Cheng.

今年对电视剧、电影和音乐来说是个丰收年，我们正在精选最佳中的最佳，包括K-pop恶魔猎手、《罪人》和《离职》。

It's been a great year for TV, movies, and music, and we are highlighting the best of the best, including k pop demon hunters, sinners, and severance.

我们将讨论年度最喜爱的瞬间，包括你可能错过的一些最佳流行文化。

We're talking about our favorite moments of the year, including some of the best pop culture you might have missed.

请在NPR应用或你获取播客的任何平台收听《流行文化欢乐时光》。

Listen to pop culture happy hour in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

在《等等别告诉我》节目中，知名演员们回忆他们默默无闻的日子，比如佩德罗·帕斯卡回忆当服务生时的压力。

On Wait Wait Don't Tell Me, famous actors remember their days of obscurity, like when Pedro Pascal remembered the stress of being a waiter.

以恰当方式满足所有人需求的后勤工作

The logistical labor of meeting everyone's needs in the right manner.

就是，你知道的，第一幕，水

The, you know, the act one, the water.

第二幕，饮料

Act two, the drink.

在NPR应用或任何你获取播客的地方收听《等等别告诉我》

Listen to Wait Wait on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcast.

这里是NPR的《考虑这个》节目

It's Consider This from NPR.

Odette Youssef负责报道NPR的极端主义相关新闻

Odette Youssef covers the extremism beat here at NPR.

在一位阿富汗国民被指控参与上月华盛顿特区两名国民警卫队士兵的伏击事件后，她深入研究了'再迁移'和'反向迁移'这些术语背后的理念

After an Afghan national was charged in the ambush of two national guardsmen last month in DC, she dug into the ideas behind the terms remigration and reverse migration.

她向我解释了这种曾经边缘化的理念，如今已成为特朗普政府驱逐行动的口号

She joined me to explain the once fringe idea that's become a mantra for the Trump administration's deportation efforts.

嗨，Oded。

Hi, Oded.

嘿，Elsa。

Hey, Elsa.

好的。

Okay.

那么在这个政府内部，你具体在哪里看到这些关于逆向移民或有时被称为再移民的呼吁？

So where exactly within this administration are you seeing these calls for reverse migration or or remigration as it's sometimes referred to.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Right.

特朗普总统在感恩节当天在社交媒体上发文，谈论移民政策如何损害了许多人的'收益和生活条件'。

So president Trump on Thanksgiving Day posted to social media about how immigration policies have hurt, quote, gains and living conditions for many.

他还表示，只有逆向移民才能彻底解决这种情况。

And he said only reverse migration can fully cure this situation.

但是，国务院提出的重组计划中包括了一个新的再移民办公室，国土安全部也在社交媒体上呼吁过再移民。

But, also, the state department's proposed reorganization plan included a new office of remigration, and the Department of Homeland Security has called for remigration on social media posts.

比如其中一条，艾尔莎，就简单地写着'再移民'这个词。

One of them, for example, Elsa, with simply the word remigrate.

好的。

Okay.

那么'再移民'具体是什么意思？

So what does remigrate exactly mean?

海蒂·贝里奇是这样向我解释的。

Well, here's how Heidi Beirich explained it to me.

她来自全球反仇恨与极端主义项目。

She's with the Global Project Against Hate and Extremism.

简而言之，这意味着在传统白人国家进行种族清洗或强制驱逐所有非白人群体。

Basically, what it means is ethnically cleansing or forcibly deporting from traditionally white countries everybody who's not white.

这就是他们的理念。

That's the idea.

这一观点通常被认为源自一位法国小说家，他被视为'大替代'阴谋论的始作俑者。该理论毫无根据地声称白人基督徒正被移民系统性地取代，目的是稀释欧洲或西方文化。

The idea is often attributed to a French novelist who became known as the originator of the great replacement conspiracy theory, which is this baseless claim that white Christian Europeans are being systematically replaced by immigrants in an attempt to dilute European or Western cultures.

而'再迁移'正是他提出的解决方案，其核心思想是对移民甚至移民后代进行有组织的清除。

And remigration was the solution he proposed, and the idea was that it would be a kind of organized removal of immigrants and even the children of immigrants.

埃尔莎，这些在本世纪初还是边缘思想，但如今已与一个横跨欧洲的'身份认同运动'相关联，并日益影响着欧洲和美国的政党政治。

And, Elsa, these were fringe ideas earlier this century, but they are now associated with a movement that cuts across Europe known as the identitarian movement and which has increasingly informed party politics there and here.

就在当下。

Right now.

好的。

Okay.

请详细说说这个。

So talk more about that.

比如，这些想法如今是如何成为主流的？

Like, how have these ideas become mainstream today?

这种变化主要归因于一位名叫马丁·塞尔纳的奥地利极右翼政治活动家。

So the change is largely attributed to an extreme right Austrian political activist named Martin Selner.

他曾是新纳粹分子。

He's a former neo Nazi.

现在他领导着一个名为'身份世代'的国际网络。

And now he heads up an international network called Generation Identity.

他致力于将'再移民'这类术语引入公众讨论。

And he has worked to to bring terms like remigration into popular discourse.

我就此采访了茱莉亚·埃布纳。

I spoke to Julia Ebner about this.

她领导着牛津大学的暴力极端主义实验室，并参与过身份主义团体的战略会议。

She heads the Violent Extremism Lab at the University of Oxford, and she has sat in on strategy sessions for identitarian groups.

她表示这些团体策划事件制造不确定性和恐惧，因为他们发现这样人们更容易接受其极端观点。

She says they staged events to create uncertainty and fear, because then they found that people were more open to their extreme ideas.

这个策略的核心是可控挑衅和战略性极化。

The strategy was all about controlled provocation and strategic polarization.

他们在维也纳、柏林到巴黎的街头发起媒体噱头，比如在维也纳市中心模拟恐怖袭击，或给古老雕像罩上罩袍，竭力获取最大媒体关注。

So they were launching media stunts in the streets of from Vienna to Berlin to Paris, where they tried to generate as much media attention as they could possibly get from, for example, simulating a terrorist attack in the heart of Vienna, or putting a burka on top of an old statue.

所以他们的策略是通过有计划的挑衅，逐步推动奥弗顿窗口的移动。

So the idea was to really to provoke strategically and step by step to move the Overton window.

艾尔莎，奥弗顿窗口指的是公众认为可接受的政策主张范围。

The Overton window, Elsa, refers to the range of policy ideas that the public considers acceptable.

长期以来，'再移民'主张都处于这个窗口之外，但现在情况不同了。

Remigration for a long time fell outside that window, but that's no longer true.

确实不再如此。

No longer true.

我是说，这些思想与欧洲如此紧密关联，这很有趣。

I mean, is interesting that these ideas are so strongly associated with Europe.

那么，它们是如何在美国这里扎根的呢？

Like like, how did they take root here in The US then?

这是个个人故事。

So a personal story.

几年前，我曾采访过一位负责中西部地区招募工作的人，他当时为一个名为"Identity Europa"的组织工作，那是美国本土的身份认同主义团体。

Years ago, I was interviewing someone who was in charge of recruitment in the Midwest for a group called Identity Europa, which at the time was The US based identitarian group.

我记得当时问他，如果不使用暴力，他认为美国如何能变成一个白人国家？

And I remember asking him how did he think The US would become a white nation if not with violence?

他说他认为人们会主动迁移回去。

And he said he thought people would just remigrate.

我想那是我第一次听到这个词，当时觉得非常荒谬。

I think that was the first time I heard the term, and it sounded ridiculous to me.

你想啊，数百万已经扎根的人怎么会心甘情愿地背井离乡？

You know, why would millions of people who had put down stakes just willingly uproot?

是啊。

Yeah.

然而几年后，'回迁计划'真的被付诸实施了。

Well, years later, remigration has been operationalized.

我们已经在洛杉矶、芝加哥、夏洛特、新奥尔良等地的移民行动中看到了这种情况。

We are seeing it with immigration operations in LA, Chicago, Charlotte, New Orleans, and so on.

我曾从芝加哥做过相关报道，你知道的，那些骚乱、催泪瓦斯、胡椒弹枪、军事风格的突袭和殴打，这些在平时不会出现的场景都发生在那些行动中。

I did some reporting from Chicago about, you know, the disorder, the tear gas, the pepper guns, military style raids, and beatings, that occurred in that operation in places that didn't normally see those things.

因此很明显，驱逐民众的过程是充满暴力的。

And so it has been clear that the removal of people is violent.

但是奥德特，当你询问白宫官员为何使用被白人至上主义者采用的术语时，他们是怎么回应的？

But what are you hearing, Odette, from White House officials when they are being asked why they are using terms that are adopted by White nationalists?

当我向白宫、国土安全部和国务院询问时，他们都拒绝承认或不愿承认这项政策理念源自欧洲极端主义。

The White House, the Department of Homeland Security, and the State Department all rejected or didn't acknowledge the European extremist roots of this policy idea when I asked them about it.

但我想补充另一个重要背景：这届政府一直在使用诸如'西方价值观'、'西方文明'等术语，并指责欧洲盟友让自己陷入'文明自杀'或'文明消亡'的危机。

But I think it's important also to add the context of other terms that this administration has been using, you know, talking about Western values, Western civilization, chiding European allies for, making themselves vulnerable to civilizational suicide or civilizational erasure.

贝里克指出，这些措辞完全符合身份认同运动及更广泛的白人民族主义运动的言论特征。

Bayrick says this is language that sits firmly within the rhetoric of the identitarian and broader white nationalist movement.

这里是NPR的奥德特·优素福为您报道。

That is NPR's Odette, Youssef.

非常感谢你，奥德特。

Thank you so much, Odette.

谢谢。

Thank you.

本期节目由凯瑟琳·芬克和布里安娜·斯科特制作。

This episode was produced by Katherine Fink and Brianna Scott.

由安德鲁·萨斯曼、贾斯汀·肯南和考特尼·多宁编辑。

It was edited by Andrew Sussman, Justine Kennan, and Courtney Dorning.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·耶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这里是NPR的《考虑一下》。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是艾尔莎·张。

I'm Elsa Chang.

想听无广告版的这个播客吗？

Wanna hear this podcast without sponsor breaks?

亚马逊Prime会员可通过亚马逊音乐收听无广告版的《*考虑一下*》，您也可以支持NPR的重要新闻报道，并通过npr.org/+获取《考虑一下》Plus版。

Amazon Prime members can listen to consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music, or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this plus at +.npr.org.

网址是npr.org/+。

That's +.npr.org.