帕姆·邦迪如何重塑了司法部

帕姆·邦迪在她作为特朗普总统提名的司法部长的确认听证会上说了很多正确的话。

Pam Bondi said a lot of the right things at her confirmation hearing as president Trump's pick for attorney general.

她重申了许多此前一直被视为美国司法体系基石的原则。

She affirmed many of the principles that had up until that point been understood as the bedrock of the American justice system.

她说，政治不会影响起诉决定。

Politics would play no part in prosecutorial decisions, she said.

每个案件都将基于事实和真诚适用的法律进行起诉，

Every case will be prosecuted based on the facts and the law that is applied in good faith,

总之。

period.

总之。

Period.

她说，她的誓言将忠于宪法。

And her oath would be to the constitution, she said.

那她的客户呢？

And her client?

美国人民才是我的客户。

The people of America would be my client.

但现在有一段对话格外引人注目，因为邦迪没有直接回答那个问题。

But there's an exchange that stands out now for the question that Bondi does not answer, at least not directly.

它始于夏威夷州参议员梅赛·希罗诺——一位民主党人——的提问。

It starts with a question from Hawaii senator Maisie Hirono, a Democrat.

白宫在司法部的调查或起诉决定中将发挥什么作用？

What role will the White House have in investigative or prosecutorial decisions of the DOJ?

它是

It is the

司法部的决定，参议员。

Department of Justice's decision, senator.

当然，这个问题的背景是，特朗普曾多次表示，他拥有对司法部为所欲为的‘绝对权利’。

Now the context for this question, of course, is that Trump has said on multiple occasions that he has the, quote, absolute right to do what he wants with the Justice Department.

在竞选重返白宫期间，特朗普发出了超过一百次威胁，要起诉、监禁或以其他方式惩罚他所认为的对手。

And during his campaign to return to office, Trump issued more than a 100 threats to prosecute, imprison, or otherwise punish his perceived opponents.

希罗诺直接问到了这一点。

Hirono asked about that directly.

如果当选总统特朗普要求、暗示或暗示您作为司法部长调查他的某个政治对手，您会这样做吗？

If president-elect Trump asks, suggests, or hints that you as attorney general should investigate one of his perceived political enemies, would you do so?

希罗诺参议员，我希望您能与我见面。

Senator Hirono, I wish you had met with me.

如果您曾与我

Had you met with

见面，他们为此争论了一会儿。

me And they bicker over this for a bit.

然后，希罗诺提出了一个假设性问题。

Then Hirono asks a gift.

总统暗示、提醒或要求您作为司法部长调查他的某个政治对手？

The president suggests, hints, asks that you as attorney general should investigate one of his perceived enemies?

参议员，我确实没有听过总统说过这样的话。

Senator, I certainly have not heard the president say that.

但我可以告诉你们的是，三分之二的美国人已经对司法部失去了信心。

But what I will tell you is two thirds of Americans have lost faith in the Department of Justice.

对于这样的言论，我相信。

And at statements like that, I believe that

人们就是从不直接回答问题。

people people continue to never directly answers the question.

但在过去的一年里，这个假设已经变成了现实。

But in the year since, that hypothetical has become a reality.

去年，特朗普总统在Truth Social上发帖，敦促司法部长起诉前联邦调查局局长詹姆斯·科米、民主党参议员亚当·希夫和纽约州总检察长莱蒂西亚·詹姆斯。

In a post on Truth Social last year, president Trump urged the AG to prosecute former FBI director James Comey, Democratic senator Adam Schiff, and New York attorney general Letitia James.

几周内，邦迪领导的司法部就对科米和詹姆斯提起了起诉。

Within weeks, Bondi's Department of Justice secured indictments against both Comey and James.

这两起案件后来都被驳回了。

Both have since been thrown out.

它还对希夫展开了调查。

It also opened an investigation into Schiff.

想想这一点。

Consider this.

帕姆·邦迪将于周三再次前往国会作证。

Pam Bondi will be back testifying before Congress on Wednesday.

如今，她所领导的部门与她刚接手时已大不相同。

Now she's head of a department that is radically different from the one she stepped into.

我们将探讨她如何重塑美国的司法体系。

We'll look at how she's reoriented America's justice system.

来自NPR，我是 Elsa Cheng。

From NPR, I'm Elsa Cheng.

这是来自NPR的《Consider This》。

It's Consider This from NPR.

司法部长帕姆·邦迪周三出席众议院司法委员会听证会，预计将重点讨论司法部对爱泼斯坦文件的处理。

Attorney General Pam Bondi's appearance before the House Judiciary Committee on Wednesday is expected to focus on the DOJ's handling of the Epstein files.

但正如我们前面提到的，还有更多内容值得探讨。

But as we mentioned earlier, there is a lot more to talk about.

为了了解邦迪在上任一年多来对司法部的所作所为，我联系了卡罗尔·莱尼格。

For a look at what Bondi has done with the justice department just over a year into the job, I called up Carol Lenig.

她是《MS Now》的普利策奖得主记者，也是《不公：政治与恐惧如何摧毁美国司法部》一书的合著者。

She's a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist at MS Now and coauthor of the book Injustice, How Politics and Fear Vanquished America's Justice Department.

你能提醒我们一下，特朗普和邦迪的关系最初是如何形成的，在她被任命为司法部长之前？

So can you just remind us of how the relationship between Trump and Bondi came to be in the first place before her appointment as attorney general?

因为他们的渊源可不浅。

Because they go back a bit.

是的。

Yeah?

确实如此。

They do.

她曾是佛罗里达州的总检察长，是唐纳德·特朗普在该州的坚定支持者，而佛罗里达无疑是一个红色州。

She was the attorney general in Florida, a very large supporter of Donald Trump's, in that state, which is definitely a red state.

除了作为共和党总检察长的支持外，她与特朗普之间还存在一段颇具争议的关系，这在她担任总检察长期间引发了对她的审视——她的办公室曾对一所由特朗普资助的大学展开调查，探究其是否恰当地使用了资金和税收减免资格，并向学生提供了应得的服务。

And they had a, in addition to her support as a Republican attorney general, they had a little bit of a controversial relationship in this respect that brought scrutiny on Pam Bondi when she was the attorney general because her office had launched an investigation into a Trump funded university and whether or not it was appropriately, using its money and its tax deferred status and delivering what it was supposed to be delivering to students.

她还收到了来自一个与特朗普协调的委员会的大额捐款，随后这项调查就终止了，这让许多人质疑政治因素和捐款是否在驱动她办公室的决策。

And she received a large contribution from a Trump, coordinated committee, and then the investigation ended, which caused a lot of people to question whether or not politics and donations were driving her office's decisions.

没错。

Right.

那你认为总统特朗普最终为何选择她担任司法部长？

And what's your perception of why president Trump eventually chose her to become attorney general?

当时有好几位候选人正在考虑之中。

You know, there were quite a few candidates on the block being considered.

唐纳德·特朗普在第二届总统任期内挑选内阁成员时，首要标准就是忠诚、顺从和绝对服从他的命令。

One of Donald Trump's number one priorities in his litmus test for choosing cabinet secretaries in his second presidency was loyalty, fealty, absolute obedience to his commands.

邦迪显然通过了这项考验，甚至在她愿意向他承诺的事项上超出了他的期望。

And Bondi had apparently met that test and exceeded his his wishes in terms of what she was willing to promise him.

她在首次公开向司法部员工介绍总统时，确实兑现了这一点——当时她欢迎总统来到司法部总部的大礼堂。

And she did very much deliver that in her first very public introduction of the president to her Department of Justice employees when she welcomed him to the great hall at the Department of Justice headquarters.

她基本上说：‘我很高兴并深感荣幸向大家介绍我们的新总统，同时也将按照这位总统的指示开展工作’——这是任何一位司法部长都从未说过的话。

She basically said, you know, I am delighted and honored to introduce you to our new president and also, to work at the direction of this president, which no attorney general had ever said.

这让很多人惊得合不拢嘴。

It caused a lot of mouths to sort of fall open.

让我们逐条谈谈这种看法：邦迪正在直接执行总统的指示。

Well, let's talk about that piece by piece, this perception that Bondi is executing an agenda directly from the president's instructions.

例如，邦迪和司法部因提起针对特朗普视为政治敌人的个人，或曾给他造成政治伤害的人的案件而受到审查。

For example, Bondi and the DOJ have come under scrutiny for several cases brought against individuals whom Trump perceives as as political enemies or who have done him some sort of political harm.

你能先提醒我们，这些主要案件围绕哪些人展开？你认为这些案件在多大程度上是特朗普明确指示的结果？

Can you remind us first who those major cases center around, and how much do you believe those cases are the result of president Trump's explicit direction?

我认为，唐纳德·特朗普的指示与帕姆·邦迪领导下的司法部行动之间最明显的联系，就是对前联邦调查局局长吉姆·科米的起诉，以及紧随其后对纽约州总检察长莱蒂蒂亚·詹姆斯的起诉。

I think the most clear connective tissue, Elsa, between Donald Trump's instructions and the Department of Justice's actions under Pam Bondi are that that watershed moment of the indictment of former FBI director Jim Comey, and very fast on the heels of that, the indictment of New York attorney general Letitia James.

是的。

Right.

两位对特朗普非常直言不讳的批评者。

Two very vocal critics of Trump.

是的。

Yes.

非常直言不讳。

Very vocal.

而且这两个人都是唐纳德·特朗普真正怀有敌意的对象。

And two people that Donald Trump, you know, had a real vendetta against.

他们是否对他怀有敌意，这还是个疑问。

Whether they had one against him is is an open question.

当他发了一条推文时，这条推文可能是无意中泄露的私人信息，但内容基本上是说：帕姆，我们必须起诉这些人。

And when he sent a tweet, which may or may not have been intentionally, private and a mistake to make public, when he sent a tweet basically saying, Pam, we've got to indict these people.

我们必须起诉这些人。

We've got to prosecute these people.

他们是罪犯。

They're criminals.

没过多久，弗吉尼亚州的大陪审团就开始了听证。

It didn't take very many more days before presentations were made to grand juries in Virginia.

关于这一点，埃爾莎，真正令人震惊的是那些职业检察官。

The real shocker about that, Elsa, is career prosecutors.

我们回到你刚才播放的那段帕姆·邦迪的发言，是的。

To go back to what Pam Bondi said in the clip that you just played Yeah.

所有决定都将基于事实和法律。

All the decisions will be based on the facts and the law.

嗯，对。

Uh-huh.

职业检察官和政治任命官员多次警告邦迪的司法部，事实和法律并不支持对这两个人提起指控。

Career prosecutors and political appointees repeatedly warned Bondi's justice department that the facts and the law did not back up indicting either of those people.

事实上，在莱蒂西亚·詹姆斯的案件中，大陪审团两次拒绝根据这些事实对她提起指控。

And indeed, grand juries in the case of Leticia James twice refused to indict her on those facts.

作为一名长期研究司法部的人，看到国家最高司法官员似乎听从总统的指示，决定起诉谁、如何起诉，这让你感到多么令人担忧？

As someone who has studied the justice department for so long, how concerning is it to you to watch the nation's top justice official seemingly take orders from the president about who to prosecute and how?

作为一名记者，而不是作为美国公民，但作为记者，目睹这一切发生简直令人震惊。

As a reporter and not as a citizen of The United States, but as a reporter, it's gobsmacking to watch this happen.

我从未见过司法部如此迅速地向总统的意愿低头的情况。

I've never seen a situation where a justice department so quickly bends at the knee to the president's whims.

但这就是目前正在发生的事情。

But that's what's happening right now.

一位总统正在像君主一样行事，而司法部的成员则像他的廷臣一样，试图实现他的意愿。

A president is acting as a king, and members of the Department of Justice are acting as basically his courtiers, you know, trying to accomplish his his wishes.

这一点的证据在于，每当政治任命官员和职业官员挺身而出，指出事实和法律并不支持这一行动时，他们就会被解雇。

The proof of that is underscored by the number of political appointees and career officials who are fired when they stand up and say, the facts and the law do not justify this action.

那么，你明天听证会上会特别关注什么？

So what will you be watching for specifically in tomorrow's hearing?

我认为关键在于，司法部和帕姆·邦迪在美国拥有巨大的权力范围，司法部和邦迪的决定触及了当前许多争议性问题的核心。

I think what's so key is that the Department of Justice and Pam Bondi have an enormous territory in America, and the Justice Department and Bondi's decisions are at the heart of so many things that are controversial at the moment.

一方面，你有爱泼斯坦的案子。

You know, on the one hand, you've got Epstein.

另一方面，你有对唐纳德·特朗普政治对手的起诉。

On the other hand, you have the prosecutions of political enemies of Donald Trump.

但在美国的腹地，司法部和邦迪本人已做出决定，将抗议移民突袭的人定性为国内恐怖分子。

But in the heartland of America, the Department of Justice and Bondi herself have made decisions declaring that people that protest immigration raids even are domestic terrorists.

明尼苏达州两名美国人遭枪击，实际上是司法部和国土安全部联手严厉打击抗议者的结果。

And the shooting of two Americans in Minnesota is really the result of the Department of Justice and the DHS working together to come down hard on those protesters.

这甚至让共和党人感到不安和忧虑，因为他们的选民开始质疑：司法部究竟在做什么？

That is really causing heartburn and consternation for even Republicans who see their voters questioning, what is the Department of Justice doing here?

卡罗尔·莱尼格是MS Now的资深调查记者，也是《不公：政治与恐惧如何摧毁了美国司法部》一书的合著者。

Carol Lenig is senior investigative correspondent at MS Now and coauthor of the book injustice, how politics and fear vanquished America's justice department.

非常感谢您今天加入我们，卡罗尔。

Thank you so much for joining us today, Carol.

谢谢你，艾尔莎。

Thank you, Elsa.

本集由杰弗里·皮埃尔和康纳·多诺万制作。

This episode was produced by Jeffrey Pierre and Connor Donovan.

由克里斯托弗·因塔利亚塔和科特尼·多宁编辑。

It was edited by Christopher Intagliata and Courtney Dorning.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这是来自NPR的报道。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是Elsa Chang。

I'm Elsa Chang.