停车如何解释一切

嘿，你好。

Hey there.

我是斯科特·德特罗，在黑色星期五为您播报。

It's Scott Detreau coming to you on Black Friday.

从历史上看，这是美国人外出购物最多的一天，意味着商场和购物中心周围的大型停车场会爆满。

Historically, day when the most Americans are out doing shopping, which means that the huge parking lots around malls and shopping centers are as full as they get.

所以我们想借此机会重播一期关于停车隐性成本的节目。

So we thought we would take this opportunity to share an encore episode about the hidden costs of all that parking.

这期节目最初于2023年播出。

This episode originally aired in 2023.

由我的搭档主持人胡安娜·萨默斯主持。

It was hosted by my cohost, Juana Summers.

选错停车位真的会毁了你的一天。

The wrong parking spot can really ruin your day.

艾米·坎迪安去年八月的一个下午就深刻体会到了这一点。

Amy Kandian learned the hard way one afternoon last August.

她当时正在华盛顿特区市中心接女儿赴约，到得有点晚了。

She was picking up her daughter from an appointment in Downtown Washington DC, got there a little behind schedule.

我说，我们直接回车上去回家吧。

I said, you know, we will just go back to the car and go home.

抱歉，我迟到了。

Sorry, I was late.

然后我开始走，发现所有这些车库看起来都一样。

And then I began walking and realized all of these garages look the same.

就在那时，艾米意识到她完全不记得自己把车停哪儿了。

That's when Amy realized she had no idea where she'd parked.

她用的是现金支付，所以没有停车票或收据。

She paid cash, so she didn't have a ticket or receipt.

她的手机没有记录停车位置。

Her phone hadn't logged the location.

她确实拍了一张停车位置的照片。

She did have one photo of her parked car.

我通常这么做，这样如果我回到这个车库时迷路了，至少能知道车在车库的哪个位置。

I usually do that so that if I get lost when I get back to this garage, then I'll have an idea of where it is in that garage.

完全没想过我会连整个车库都找不到。

Not thinking that I would lose the actual garage.

于是艾米和她女儿花了三个小时，挨个车库寻找，询问停车管理员，试图找到她的车。

So for three hours, Amy and her daughter went from garage to garage, checking with parking attendants, looking for her car.

我开始崩溃了，因为我觉得自己是个糟糕的母亲。

I began to unravel because I feel like a terrible mom.

我觉得自己是个糟糕的人。

I feel like a terrible human.

谁会把自己的车弄丢啊？

And who loses their car?

最终她放弃了，打电话让丈夫来接她们。

Eventually, she gave up, had her husband come pick them up.

第二天，她开始给各个车库打电话，而她丈夫则开车到市中心继续寻找。

The next day, she started calling garages and her husband drove downtown and kept hunting.

毫无线索。

Nothing.

艾米在Facebook上发布了这段遭遇。

Amy posted about the ordeal on Facebook.

帖子被分享后，她很快开始收到消息。

The post got shared and soon she started getting messages.

来自华盛顿和世界各地的网络侦探们。

Online sleuths from Washington and all around the world.

我是说，当苏格兰的人们都在说'哦，我真担心你的车'时，

I mean, when people from Scotland are saying, oh, you know, I'm so worried about your car.

你开始怀疑，这真的发生了吗？

You start to think, is this really happening?

最终，有网友认出了那个停车场。

Eventually, someone on the internet recognized the garage.

一位名叫布兰迪的女性表示她在附近工作，可以在休息时去侦查一下。

A woman named Brandy said she worked nearby and could scout it out on her break.

她确实这么做了，还拍了那辆车的照片，我简直不敢相信。

And she did and she took a photo of the car and I just could not believe.

这几乎就像是一场游戏节目。

It it was kind of like a game show almost.

问题是，像这样丢失车辆的情况并不罕见。

The thing is losing a car like this isn't that uncommon.

当《华盛顿邮报》报道艾米·康迪安的故事时，他们称这是华盛顿特区的一种成人礼。

When the Washington Post wrote up Amy Kondian's story, they called it a rite of passage in DC.

果然，就在几个月前，几乎一模一样的事件再次上演。

And sure enough, a nearly identical saga unfolded again just a couple months ago.

一位华盛顿游客的车丢失了四天，后来通过Reddit上的众包搜索才找到。

A Washington visitor lost their car for four days before a crowdsourced Reddit search helped find it.

美国城市里确实有大量的停车场。

There really are just tons of garages in American cities.

其中很多都是由同一家公司经营的。

A lot of them are owned by the same companies.

这有点像星巴克。

It's kinda like Starbucks.

它们到处都是，有些甚至就在马路对面。

It's like they're all over the place and some are across the street from each other.

你知道吗？

You know?

很容易就会在里面迷路。

It's easy to sort of get lost in them.

想想看。

Consider this.

停车已成为生活中如此普遍的存在，以至于你可能忽略了它对我们生活空间的塑造程度。

Parking is such a fact of life that you can overlook how much it shapes the places we live.

停车位是美国许多城市中最大的单一土地利用形式。

Parking is the largest single land use in many American cities.

如果我们从零开始设计社会，我们还会把汽车停放空间置于现在这样的重要地位吗？

If we were designing society from scratch, would we have placed car storage on the pedestal that it now occupies?

接下来，我们将聆听一位作家的观点，他认为美国的停车管理方式正在耗费我们的时间、金钱和住房资源。

Coming up, we'll hear from a writer who argues that the way America handles parking is costing us time, money, and housing.

我是NPR的胡安娜·萨默斯。

From NPR, I'm Juana Summers.

关注新闻固然重要，但当你需要放松时，我们的《All Songs Considered》——NPR的音乐播客节目能为你提供休憩空间。

Making time for the news is important, but when you need a break, we've got you covered on All Songs Considered, NPR's music podcast.

把它想象成一个音乐发现节目，一次与朋友共度的应得逃离，当然，还有一些深刻的音乐见解。

Think of it like a music discovery show, a well deserved escape with friends, and, yeah, some serious music insight.

我实话实说。

I'm a keep it real.

我完全不知道这个故事讲的是什么。

I have no idea what the story is about.

每周二，《All Songs Considered》都会在各大播客平台更新节目。

There are new episodes of All Songs Considered every Tuesday wherever you get podcasts.

与其让算法给你推送平庸的播客推荐，不如订阅NPR的播客俱乐部通讯。

Instead of letting an algorithm throw mediocre podcast recommendations at you, sign up for NPR's pod club newsletter.

我们筛选数小时的音频，只为发掘那些能让你在公共场合惊叹、落泪或开怀大笑的精彩节目。

We comb through hours of audio to find the gems, the episodes that will make you gasp, cry, or crack up in a public place.

每周我们都会将这些精选内容发送至您的邮箱，并告诉您它们为何值得一听。

Then every week, we send those pics to your inbox and tell you why they're worth your time.

立即订阅，请访问npr.org/podclub。

Subscribe now at npr.org/podclub.

拉丁音乐从未如此风靡，但在拉丁裔群体中它一直占据重要地位。

Latin music has never been bigger, but it's always been big on all Latino.

十五年来，我们持续通过音乐视角颂扬拉丁文化，跨越地域界限。

Fifteen years in, we continue celebrating Latinidad through a music lens, transcending borders through.

深入了解来自La Cultura的艺术家们，并将新鲜拉丁音乐佳作加入您的播放列表。

Get to know artists from La Cultura on a deeper level, and throw some new Latin music wrecks into your rotation.

在NPR应用或任何您获取播客的平台收听Alt Latino节目。

Listen to Alt Latino in NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

这里是NPR的《Consider This》节目。

It's Consider This from NPR.

停车往往会引发强烈情绪，无论是在社区会议上，还是在《宋飞正传》里记录的关于路边车位的争执中。

Parking tends to bring out strong emotions, whether it's in a neighborhood meeting or a fight over a curb spot as documented on Seinfeld.

嘿，你在干什么？

Hey, what are you doing?

我想我在停车。

I think I'm parking my car.

你不能那么做。

You can't do that.

你不能就这样从银行那边溜进来。

You can't just sneak in from the bank like that.

我没有溜进来。

I'm not sneaking.

亨利·格雷巴表示这并不奇怪，当你思考停车实际上有多重要时。

Henry Grebar says that's not surprising when you think about how profound parking actually is.

停车无非是连接我们日常驾驶行为与生活本身的纽带——无论你最初开车是为了做什么。

Parking is nothing less than the link between driving, which we all do every day, and life itself, whatever you came into the car to do in the first place.

他一直在从哲学和实践角度思考停车问题，为他的新书做准备。

He's been thinking a lot about parking philosophically and practically for his new book.

这本书名为《铺就的天堂：停车如何解释世界》。

It's called Paved Paradise, How Parking Explains the World.

书中提出一个观点：美国的停车系统已经失灵，如果我们能解决这个问题，就能连带解决许多其他问题，尤其是国家的住房短缺问题。

And it is an argument that parking is broken in The US and that if we fixed it, we could fix a lot of other problems too, especially the nation's housing shortage.

这就是我与亨利·格雷巴对话的起点。

That's where my conversation with Henry Grebar starts.

你知道吗，我在读你的书时，立刻被一个事实震惊：按面积计算，这个国家为每辆车提供的住房空间比为人提供的还要多。

You know, one of the things that immediately jumped off the page for me when I was reading your book is the fact that by square footage, there is more housing for each car in this country than there is housing for each person.

坦白说，这个说法让我觉得非常成问题。

And on its face, I have to say that statement feels incredibly problematic.

但事实真是如此吗？

But is it?

当你仔细思考后，我觉得这并不那么令人惊讶。

I don't think it's that surprising when you start to think about it.

我是说，数量确实更多。

I mean, there are more.

在这个国家，我们建造的三车位车库比一居室公寓还要多。

We build more three car garages in this country than we build one bedroom apartments.

几乎每个行政区域都要求在任何建筑类型中配备停车位，无论是学校、公寓楼、办公楼还是餐厅，法律都规定了最低停车位数量。

Almost every jurisdiction in this country requires parking as a part of every single building type, whether you're building a school, an apartment building, or an office, or a restaurant, the law requires a certain number of parking spaces.

因此，全国每个行政区都设有停车位最低标准，而对住房却常设上限。

So we have parking minimums in every jurisdiction in this country, whereas for housing, we often have maximums.

我们会规定这块地皮上只能建一套住房。

We say on this plot, you can only put one unit of housing.

或者只能建两套住房。

You can only put two units of housing.

所以最终出现停车位过剩而住房短缺的局面并不意外。

So the fact that we've ended up with a surplus of parking and a shortage of housing is no surprise.

事实上，这正是制度设计的结果。

In fact, it's by design.

你在书中指出的另一个例子让我非常着迷，那就是如果帝国大厦按照现代美国城市的最低停车位要求建造，它的地面停车场将占据整整12个街区。

Another thing that you pointed out in the book, an example that I just found fascinating, is that if the Empire State Building had been built to the minimum parking requirements of a modern American city, its surface parking lot would include 12 whole blocks.

我真的觉得停车位要求与建筑密度之间的这种关系非常有趣。

And that I I really find that relationship between parking requirements and density fascinating.

你能再多谈谈这一点吗？

Can you talk about that a bit more?

当然。

Sure.

如果读者能从这本书中记住一件事，我希望是：停车位占用了大量空间，而且建设成本非常高昂。

If there's one thing that people take away from this book, I hope it's that parking takes up a lot of space, and it is very expensive to build.

我曾与一位规划师交谈，他是这样向我描述的。

I talked to a planner who described it to me like this.

每个来到规划部门的人都有自己的项目，就像一座冰雕。

Everybody comes to the planning department, and they have this project, and it's like an ice sculpture.

而当我们为了确保足够停车位而不断削减后，最终得到的就只剩下一块冰块了。

And by the time we're done whittling it down to make sure there's enough parking, what you wind up with is an ice cube.

我认为这精辟地概括了美国建筑在停车规定前后的区别：停车规定前的建筑装饰精美、富有特色且占满整个地块，而停车规定后的建筑基本上看起来就像是被停车位包围的快餐厅。

And I think that neatly summarizes the distinction between pre parking American architecture, which is ornate and interesting and fills the whole lot, and post parking American architecture, which basically looks like a fast food restaurant surrounded by parking spaces.

你在书中列举了许多例子，但有一个特别能说明停车问题如何阻碍开发，比如经济适用房项目。

You walk through a number of examples on your book, but there's one that really flushes out how concerns about parking can block development of, say, an affordable housing development.

你能跟我们讲讲加利福尼亚州索拉纳海滩的'珍珠'项目吗？

Can you tell us about The Pearl in Solana Beach, California?

好的。

Yeah.

我几年前在《洛杉矶时报》上读到过这个案例。

So I read about this in the LA Times a couple years ago.

圣地亚哥郊区索拉纳海滩的一位经济适用房开发商试图为10个家庭建造一个项目。

An affordable housing developer in Solana Beach, a suburb of San Diego, was trying to build a project for 10 families.

在长达十年的时间里，这个项目基本上因当地居民以停车位不足为由反对而遭到破坏，尽管开发商愿意自费重建场地所有停车位，并为居民提供少量额外停车空间。

And what happened over the course of a decade was this project was basically wrecked on the objections of local neighbors about a parking shortage, despite the fact that the developer was going to rebuild all the parking on the site at great expense and provide a little additional parking as well for the residents.

这个项目向我展示了停车问题如何成为美国政治中的'高压线'。

And what this project shows me is the way that parking has become this kind of third rail in American politics.

对吧？

Right?

你不能在社区会议上站起来说‘我们不希望穷人住在这个社区’，这是不被接受的。

It's it's not acceptable to get up at a community meeting and say, we don't want any poor people to live in the neighborhood.

但如果你像索拉纳海滩那次会议一样，站起来说‘我们担心停车位不足’，这就成了一个正当理由。

But if you get up at a community meeting like this one in Solana Beach and you say, we are concerned about the parking supply, well, that's a legitimate excuse.

我们应该指出，你在书中写到的某些人确实明确表达了这些观点。

I mean, we should point out that some of the people that you write about in this book, they did say these things explicitly.

有人说：‘我们这个社区不需要更多元化。’

One said, we don't need more diversity in this neighborhood.

‘街那头已经有墨西哥人住的公寓了。’

We already have the Mexican apartments down the street.

在我看来，他们谈论的内容其实与停车问题关系不大。

And it sounds to me like what they're talking about doesn't have a whole lot to do with parking at all.

这实质上是种族和阶级问题。

It's about race and class.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为人们反对在自己社区建设经济适用房有多种原因。

I think people have many reasons that they object to affordable housing in their neighborhood.

但我觉得索拉纳海滩项目有趣之处在于，尽管反对该项目的邻居们存在偏见，真正导致项目失败的却是提供停车位的要求以及因停车位减少引发的诉讼。

But what I think of what is interesting about the Solana Beach project was despite the prejudices of the neighbors who objected to this project, what actually made the project fail was the requirement to provide parking and the lawsuit brought over the lost parking spaces.

而且索拉纳海滩并非个例。

And Solana Beach is not alone.

我的意思是，美国每个郊区、每个城市社区都有类似的项目——一个因居民担心停车问题而被搁置、拖延、成本增加或缩减单元数量的经济适用房项目。

I mean, every suburb in America, every city neighborhood has a project like this, an affordable housing project that's been held up or slowed down or made more expensive or reduced to fewer units because neighbors are concerned about parking.

相关研究显示，停车位会使每套新建住房的成本增加3万至6万美元。

There have been studies of this, and parking adds between 30 and $60,000 onto the cost of every new unit of housing that's created.

这对我们建设新住房——尤其是利润空间本就微薄的经济适用房——构成了巨大阻碍，因为每个美元都需要精打细算。

So that is a massive drag on our ability to create new housing, especially affordable housing, where the bottom line on these projects is pretty thin, and you really need to make every dollar count.

我们也应该指出。

And we should just point out too.

我是说，索拉纳海滩项目，它从未实现过。

I mean, the Solana Beach project, it never happened.

它从未建成。

It never got built.

没错。

That's right.

这就是索拉纳海滩项目的悲剧。

That's the tragedy of the Solana Beach project.

十年间为真实存在的低收入租户付出的努力，他们曾被市政府承诺提供住房，却因邻居们过分担忧停车问题而永远无法建成。

Ten years of work for real people, low income tenants who had been promised housing by the city, and it never got built because neighbors were too concerned about parking.

你认为一个拥有更好停车条件的国家会是什么样子？

What do you think that a world, that a country with better parking would look like?

这对一个人行走于世的方式、体验社区的方式、与邻居及周围人相处的方式意味着什么？

And what would it mean to the way that a person walks through the world, the way that they experience their communities, the way that they relate to their neighbors and the people around them?

你创造的停车位越多，开车的人就越多。

The more parking you create, the more people drive.

开车的人越多，就需要建设更多的停车位。

And the more people drive, the more parking you need to create.

我们已经陷入了这种恶性循环，城市环境因此遭到破坏，人们除了开车别无选择。

We have created this kind of vicious cycle of this sort of ruined urban environment in which it's impossible to do anything but drive.

但还有另一种循环。

But there's another cycle.

良性循环是创造停车位更少的空间，停车位不在商店前面而是在后面，住宅间距更近，街道更适宜步行。

There is a virtuous cycle in which you create spaces with less parking, with parking that's not in front of the store, but behind it, where residences are a little closer together, where streets are more walkable.

在这样的环境中，人们就有可能减少开车。

And in an environment like this, it becomes possible not to drive so much.

改革者们并不是说数百万美国家庭需要完全放弃汽车。

And reformers, they're not saying that millions of American households need to go car free.

我想他们是明白这一点的。

I think they get it.

美国是一个幅员辽阔的国家。

America's a big country.

很多事情你确实需要开车。

You need to drive for a lot of things.

与此同时，在美国大都市区，包括城市和郊区，一半的出行距离都在三英里以内。

At the same time, half of all trips in big US metro areas, cities and suburbs together, half of all trips are under three miles.

这样的距离其实并不一定需要汽车。

So that's a distance that doesn't necessarily require a car.

只是我们构建的环境使得其他出行方式变得危险、不便且困难。

It just happens to be that we've built this environment in which it's dangerous and unpleasant and difficult to get somewhere any other way.

停车位的支持者常说：看那些步行便利、公共交通发达的地区，往往房价也高得离谱。

One thing that defenders of parking say is, look, the areas that are super walkable and have really good public transit, well, they also tend to be really expensive.

要么非常富有，要么特别幸运的人才能住得起那些地方。

You've gotta be either really rich or really lucky to live there.

如果在步行基础设施完善前就取消社区停车位，等于在惩罚那些别无选择只能开车的人。

So if you just start getting rid of parking in a neighborhood before you've built that walking infrastructure, you're gonna be punishing people who do not have the choice not to drive.

你对这种观点有何回应？

What do you say to that argument?

是的。

Yeah.

我对这种批评非常敏感。

I'm very sensitive to that critique.

我认为过去几十年我们看到的一个现象是，这些停车位紧张的社区——在五六十年代曾被规划要拆除的——如今却成了美国最昂贵的居住地之一。

I think that's one thing that we've seen in the last couple decades is that these sort of parking challenged neighborhoods, which were slated for demolition in the nineteen fifties and sixties, have become some of the most expensive places to live in America.

现在你可能会说，这更说明我们需要确保这些社区仍有充足的停车位，以保证负担不起居住成本的人仍能开车前往。

Now you could say that's all the more reason why we need to ensure that those neighborhoods still have plentiful parking, to ensure that people who can't afford to live there can still drive there.

但对我来说，在昂贵的步行友好社区提供免费停车位，似乎是个相当糟糕的安慰奖。

But to me, free parking in an expensive walkable neighborhood seems like a pretty lousy consolation prize.

我认为重点应该放在创建更多类似这样的社区上。

I think the focus ought to be on creating more neighborhoods like those neighborhoods.

为什么它们的供应如此有限？

Why are they in such limited supply?

这才是我们应该自问的问题。

That's the question we should be asking ourselves.

答案在于，每个建设新社区的人都面临着必须提供成千上万个停车位的义务。

And the answer is because everybody who's building a new neighborhood is confronted with the obligation to provide thousands and thousands of parking spaces.

我们实际上已经不可能再建造更多像威克公园、圣莫尼卡、格林堡那样的社区了。

We have effectively made it impossible to build more neighborhoods like Wicker Park, like Santa Monica, like Fort Greene.

而这些地方恰好是全国最昂贵的社区之一，这绝非巧合。

And it's no coincidence that those are the some of the most expensive neighborhoods in the country.

部分原因就在于它们极为稀缺。

It's in part because they're so rare.

亨利·格雷巴尔。

Henry Grebar.

他的新书名为《铺就的天堂：停车如何解释世界》。

His new book is paved paradise, how parking explains the world.

这里是NPR的《深思熟虑》栏目。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是胡安娜·萨默斯。

I'm Juana Summers.

想听没有赞助商插播的这期播客吗？

Wanna hear this podcast without sponsor breaks?

亚马逊Prime会员可以通过Amazon Music无广告收听《Consider This》，或者您也可以通过支持NPR的重要新闻报道，在+.npr.org获取《Consider This Plus》会员专享内容。

Amazon Prime members can listen to consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music, or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this plus at +.npr.org.

网址是+.npr.org。

That's +.npr.org.