斯蒂芬·米勒有多大的影响力？

斯蒂芬·米勒并不是民选官员，但今天在美国，很少有人比他更有权力。

Stephen Miller isn't an elected official, but there are few people with more power in America today.

但我想感谢斯蒂芬·米勒，他就坐在观众席的那里。

But I wanna thank Stephen Miller who's right back in the audience right there.

以下是去年十月，总统特朗普在白宫对记者的讲话。

Here's president Trump speaking to reporters at the White House last October.

作为白宫政策事务副幕僚长和特朗普任职时间最长的助手之一，米勒一直是特朗普多项核心政策背后的推动力。

As the White House deputy chief of staff for policy and one of president Trump's longest serving aides, Miller's been the driving force behind many of Trump's core policies.

即使按照总统自己的标准，他也以极端观点著称。

He's known for having extreme views even by the president's own standards.

我真希望他能上台解释一下他真实的想法，但也许不是最真实的想法。

I'd love to have him come up and explain his true feelings, but maybe not his truest feelings.

那可能就有点过头了。

That might be going a little bit too far.

米勒是特朗普反移民打压政策的设计师。

Miller is the architect of Trump's anti immigrant crackdown.

他推动了限制合法移民途径，并主导了移民与海关执法局的招募与部署。

He's pushed for a narrowing of legal immigration pathways and led the push in ICE recruitment and deployment.

他最近因推动抓捕委内瑞拉领导人尼古拉斯·马杜罗的计划而成为焦点。

And he's been in the spotlight recently as a driving force behind the plan to capture Venezuela's leader Nicolas Maduro.

美国毫不掩饰地运用军事力量来保障我们在本地区的利益。

The United States is using its military to secure our interests unapologetically in our hemisphere.

本周，米勒在与CNN的一次广泛传播的采访中表示，我们生活在一个‘由实力和武力主导’的世界，并断言格陵兰应该成为美国的一部分。

In a much circulated interview this week with CNN, Miller said we live in a world, quote, governed by strength and force, and also asserted that Greenland should be part of The United States.

我们是超级大国，在特朗普总统领导下，我们将以超级大国的姿态行事。

We're a superpower, and under president Trump, we are going to conduct ourselves as a superpower.

请想一想。

Consider this.

斯蒂芬·米勒被广泛认为是将特朗普总统的意愿转化为现实、实现其美国愿景的关键人物。

Stephen Miller is largely credited with channeling president Trump's desires and making his vision of America real.

是什么驱使斯蒂芬·米勒？

What motivates Steven Miller?

来自NPR，我是莎拉·麦卡蒙。

From NPR, I'm Sarah McCammon.

这是NPR的《深入思考》。

It's consider this from NPR.

斯蒂芬·米勒是一个颇具争议的人物，我们知道总统信任他。

Stephen Miller is a polarizing character, and we know that president Trump trusts him.

那么他在政府中的影响力究竟有多大？

So how far reaching is his role in our government?

总统身边的人都知道，当一项指令来自斯蒂芬·米勒时，他们会认为这是直接来自总统的指示。

Everyone around the president knows that when a directive comes from Stephen Miller, they view it as coming from the president directly.

这是《大西洋月刊》的撰稿人阿什莉·帕克。

That's Ashley Parker, a staff writer for The Atlantic.

她的新文章名为《斯蒂芬·米勒的怒火》。

Her new article is called The Wrath of Stephen Miller.

我早些时候与她交谈过，首先问她斯蒂芬·米勒在政府中究竟有多大的权力。

I spoke to her earlier, and I started by asking her just how powerful Stephen Miller is in the administration.

他非常有权力。

He's incredibly powerful.

史蒂夫·班农和其他人开玩笑地称他为总理。

Steve Bannon and other people jokingly call him the prime minister.

我认为公众，尤其是从第一任期开始，将斯蒂芬·米勒与特朗普的强硬移民政策联系在一起。

And I think the public in general, especially from the first term, associates Stephen Miller with Trump's hardline immigration policies.

这确实如此。

And that's certainly true.

他在移民问题上有着巨大的影响力。

He has a big, big hand in immigration.

但我们这篇人物特写试图传达的一点是，移民并不是斯蒂芬·米勒唯一插手的领域——他不仅参与其中，更在从移民到国土安全、到国家街头执法、再到外交政策、贸易乃至教育的方方面面都发挥着重大作用。

But one thing we were trying to capture with this profile is that immigration is not the only thing that Stephen Miller has his hands in, and not just hands, but has a major, major role on everything from immigration to Homeland Security, to law enforcement in our nation's streets, to foreign policy, to trade and even to education.

政府出台的许多有争议的政策，要么是斯蒂芬·米勒构想的，要么是由他执行的。

And a lot of the controversial policies coming out of the administration are either being dreamed up by Stephen Miller or executed by Stephen Miller.

你采访了政府内部的几位人士，了解米勒的行事风格，你形容他是‘一个本就几乎纯粹是本我的总统身上跳动的人类本我’。

You spoke with several folks within the administration about Miller's style, and you describe him as, quote, the pulsing human id of a president who is already almost pure id.

这什么意思，阿什利？

What does that mean, Ashley?

这种风格是如何影响政府运作的？

And how does that style shape the way that the administration is functioning?

斯蒂芬·米勒非常明确的一点是，他认为自己的职责就是毫不留情且紧急地执行特朗普总统想做的事情。

So Stephen Miller, one thing he's very clear about, is that he views his job as taking what President Trump wants to do and executing it ruthlessly and urgently.

有趣的是，在某些方面，斯蒂芬和特朗普曾在公开场合开玩笑说，他的立场甚至比总统本人还要极端。

And what's interesting is there are areas where Steven and Trump has joked about this in public is far more extreme than even President Trump.

因此，斯蒂芬在幕后会非常积极地阐述自己的观点，提出论据，争取支持。

And so Steven behind the scenes will very vigorously argue his case, make his points, make his pitch.

但一旦特朗普做出了决定，他就不会像第一任期的一些人那样，告诉特朗普各种不能做的理由，或为什么这是错误的，或暗中破坏他。

But once Trump has decided something, he's not like some of the people, especially in the first term, right, who would tell Trump all the reasons he can't do it or why it's the wrong thing or try to quietly undermine him.

一旦唐纳德·特朗普决定了要做什么，斯蒂芬就会出去把它执行到位。

Once Donald Trump has decided what he wants to do, Steven is going to go out there and do it.

但你提到米勒是一个拥有非常强烈观点的人。

But you talk about Miller as somebody who has various a very strong point of view.

例如，他将政治分歧描绘成善与恶之间的生存斗争。

He casts political disagreements as this existential struggle between good and evil, for example.

我的意思是，米勒在多大程度上是在塑造或试图塑造总统的观点，而不是反映或放大特朗普的想法？

I mean, how much is Miller shaping or trying to shape the president's viewpoint versus reflecting or amplifying Trump?

嗯，again，这是两者的结合。

Well, again, it's a combination of both.

对吧？

Right?

首先，斯蒂芬·米勒不可能为一个与他大方向不一致的人工作。

For starters, Stephen Miller would not be able to work for someone with whom he was not broadly aligned.

因为人们告诉我们，他们非常欣赏米勒在政府中的一个特点，这可能看起来有点反直觉：他是个狂热分子。

Because one of the things that people told us that they really like about Stephen Miller in the administration, and this might seem a little counterintuitive, is that he's a zealot.

他们说，我们总是知道他的立场。

They said we we always know where he stands.

尽管如此，在某些情况下，尤其是在移民问题上，他的立场比特朗普总统更极端。

That said, in some instances, he is more hardline, especially on immigration than president Trump is.

在这些情况下，他依然会私下非常强烈而有力地阐述自己的观点。

And in those instances, again, he very intensely and very forcefully makes his case in private.

因此，我认为他确实在一定程度上影响了总统，因为我们知道特朗普总统常常会被他最后交谈的人或经常交谈的人所说服。

And so I do think there is some shaping of the president there just because we know president Trump is often persuaded by the last person he talked to or by people he talks to frequently.

但归根结底，他们两人之间也曾有过一些分歧。

But again, at the end of the day, there have been some disagreements between the two of them.

当出现这些分歧时，斯蒂芬·米勒仍会按照总统的意愿行事，无论这是否符合他个人的观点。

And when there are those disagreements, Stephen Miller does go out and do what the president wants regardless of his personal views.

但他们之间的分歧并不大。

But there's not that much daylight between them.

十年前，斯蒂芬·米勒是特朗普的演讲撰稿人。

A decade ago, Stephen Miller was a speechwriter for Trump.

是什么促使他在两个特朗普任期之间地位迅速上升？

What led to his ascendance between the two Trump administrations?

我的意思是，他在第一个特朗普任期内就已经非常有影响力了。

I mean, he he was still incredibly powerful in the first Trump term.

不同之处在于，当年制约特朗普总统的第一任期的那些约束机制，也同样制约了斯蒂芬·米勒。

The difference was the same guardrails that kind of constrained president Trump in that first term also constrained Stephen Miller.

国土安全部有一些人，当他做出他们认为过于极端或道德上不可接受的举动时，会拒绝执行他的指令。

There were people at the Department of Homeland Security who, when he did something that they felt was too extreme, or was morally reprehensible, would not follow through on his directive.

当时他们知道，当约翰·凯利离开该机构时，他会保护他们。

And they knew that at the time, when John Kelly was leaving that agency, he would protect them.

如今，所有这些约束机制和这些人都已不复存在。

All of those guardrails and all of those people are gone now.

第二点是，正如我们现在看到的这位更加大胆、无拘无束、不受束缚的特朗普总统一样，斯蒂芬·米勒也经历了同样的过程。

And the second thing is much like this more emboldened, unfettered, unchained president Trump we're seeing now, Stephen Miller underwent the same process.

因此，在他离开权力的四年里，他默默低调地工作，确保如果他和特朗普重返政府，他将掌握联邦官僚体系的所有杠杆和工具。

And so he basically spent his four years out of power working quietly and privately to ensure that if he and Trump came back to office, he would have all the levers and tools of the federal bureaucracy at his disposal.

在让你离开之前，阿什莉，你希望人们此时此刻对斯蒂芬·米勒及其在特朗普政府中的角色理解什么？

Before I let you go, Ashley, what is it that you want people to understand about Stephen Miller and about his role in the Trump administration at this moment?

我认为理解几点很重要。

I think it's important to understand a couple of things.

他与总统关系有多密切，他的职权范围有多广，以及他如何插手人们可能想不到的政策，比如特朗普政府对高等教育和哈佛大学的打压。

How close to the president he is, just how broad his purview is, and how he has his hand in policies that people might not expect, like the Trump administration's war against higher education and against Harvard.

对吧？

Right?

人们再次想到的还是移民问题。

People, again, they think of immigration.

他们或许会想到外交政策，但未必会想到斯蒂芬·米勒在其他众多领域所扮演的角色。

They maybe think of foreign policy, but they don't necessarily think of all the other areas where Stephen Miller is playing a role.

我认为，关于斯蒂芬·米勒，另一件重要的事是，他曾向朋友和同事透露，他确实喜欢扮演这种快乐的反叛者或搅局者角色，专门让自由派人士气炸。

And I think the other thing that's important to understand about Stephen Miller is he's confided in friends and colleagues that he does like playing this role of the gleeful contrarian or the troll who makes liberals' heads explode.

但如今，我们在电视和CNN等媒体上看到的这种刻板形象，已经变成了他真实的性格。

But at this point, the caricature that that we see on TV and interviews on CNN and elsewhere has now become his true character.

公共场合的斯蒂芬·米勒与私下里的他，在信念的强烈程度上并无区别。

There is not a real difference between public and private Stephen Miller in the intensity of his convictions.

阿什莉·帕克是《大西洋月刊》的撰稿人。

Ashley Parker is a staff writer for The Atlantic.

她的新文章名为《斯蒂芬·米勒的怒火》。

Her new article is called The Wrath of Stephen Miller.

阿什利，非常感谢你抽出时间。

Ashley, thanks so much for your time.

哦，当然。

Oh, of course.

谢谢你做这个。

Thank you for doing this.

本集由米亚·文卡特制作。

This episode was produced by Mia Venkat.

由萨拉·罗宾斯和丽贝卡·梅茨勒编辑。

It was edited by Sarah Robbins and Rebecca Metzler.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这是来自NPR的《请考虑一下》。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是莎拉·麦卡蒙。

I'm Sarah McCammon.

想听没有广告插播的这个播客吗？

Wanna hear this podcast without sponsor breaks?

亚马逊Prime会员可以通过亚马逊音乐免费收听无广告的《Consider This》，或者您也可以支持NPR的重要新闻报道，通过+.npr.org获取《Consider This Plus》。

Amazon Prime members can listen to consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music, or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this plus at +.npr.org.

网址是+.npr.org。

That's +.npr.org.