Epstein 文件如何颠覆英国政治

2026年对英国首相斯塔默来说并不顺利。

2026 has not been great for UK prime minister Kirstarmer.

你可以在新年过后几天他接受BBC的这次采访中已经听出端倪。

You can hear it already in this interview with the BBC a few days after the New Year.

你看起来非常愉快，有些人可能会惊讶于你如此乐观，毕竟你经历了一段非常艰难的时期。

You seem very cheerful, and some people might be almost surprised that you're optimistic because you've had a very torrid time.

我的意思是，我本来以为你的新年决心可能是到2027年还能坐在这个位置上。

I mean, I thought your resolution might be that you're still sitting in that seat by 2027.

好吧，到2027年我依然会坐在这里。

Well, I will be sitting in this seat by 2027.

如果这次长篇采访效果不错，我们明年一月也可以再做一次。

And if this long form interview works, we can try it again in January as well.

在斯塔默的一位亲密政治盟友的照片被曝光——这些照片来自美国司法部最新公布的杰弗里·爱泼斯坦文件，照片中他穿着内衣——之前，斯塔默的支持率就已经很低了。

Starmer's approval rating was already poor before one of his close political allies showed up in his underwear in photographs released in the latest batch of the US Department of Justice's Jeffrey Epstein files.

随之而来的丑闻已经导致斯塔默的首席幕僚和通讯总监离职，这场风波甚至可能最终让他失去首相职位。

The ensuing scandal has pushed out Keir Starmer's chief of staff and his communications director, and it may yet cost Starmer his premiership as well.

在美国，人们对 Epstein 文件的反应有所不同。

Here in The US, the reaction to the Epstein files has been different.

我认为现在是时候让国家关注其他事情了。

I think it's really time for the country to get onto something else.

你知道，到目前为止，这些文件里没有提到我，只是说这是一场针对我的阴谋。

You know, now that, nothing came out about me other than it was a conspiracy against me.

这是上周特朗普总统说的话。

That's president Trump last week.

确实，到目前为止公布的文件中没有涉及特朗普与 Epstein 的虐待行为。

It is true that nothing released in the documents so far implicates Trump and Epstein's abuse.

也没有任何内容反驳特朗普长期以来的说法，即他二十多年前就与 Epstein 翻脸了。

And nothing refutes Trump's long standing claim that he had a falling out with Epstein twenty odd years ago.

但文件中确实出现了许多政界、商界和学术界的重要人物，包括一些特朗普的盟友。

But plenty of influential figures in politics, business, and academia do appear in the documents, including some of Trump's allies.

比如他的商务部长霍华德·卢特尼克。

Take his commerce secretary, Howard Lutnick.

去年，他告诉《纽约邮报》，在2005年他们成为邻居后，他曾和埃普斯坦一起喝过一次咖啡。

Last year, he told the New York Post that he met Epstein for coffee once in 2005 after they became neighbors.

我和我妻子决定，我再也不会和那个令人作呕的人同处一室。

My wife and I decided that I will never be in the room with that disgusting person ever again.

所以，无论是社交、商务还是慈善活动，我都从未和他单独待过。

So I was never in the room with him socially, for business, or even philanthropy.

只要那个家伙在场，我就不会去，因为他太恶心了。

If that guy was there, I wasn't going because he's gross.

新公布的文件显示，事实上，两人此后仍保持联系，甚至暗示他们曾在埃普斯坦的私人岛屿上会面。

The new files show that, in fact, the men continued to correspond and even suggest that they met on Epstein's private island.

美国商务部一名发言人告诉《今日美国》报，拉特尼克与埃普斯坦的互动仅限于有其妻子在场的情况下，且从未被指控有任何不当行为。

A commerce department spokesperson told USA Today that Lutnick had, quote, limited interactions with mister Epstein in the presence of his wife and has never been accused of wrongdoing.

肯塔基州的共和党众议员托马斯·马西本周末对CNN表示，拉特尼克应该向对岸学习。

Republican representative Thomas Massey of Kentucky told CNN this weekend that Lutnick should take a lesson from across the pond.

他应该直接辞职。

He should just resign.

我的意思是，英国已经有三个人在政界辞职了。

I mean, there are three people in Great Britain that have resigned in politics.

英国驻美国的大使。

The ambassador from Great Britain to The United States.

那位王子因为比我们所知的霍华德·卢特尼克所撒的谎更小的事就失去了头衔。

The prince lost his title for for less than what we've seen Howard Lutnick lie about.

想想这一点。

Consider this.

与美国政治不同，艾泼斯坦文件的公布在英国产生了实际影响。

In contrast to American politics, the release of the Epstein files has had real consequences in The UK.

我们会深入探讨原因。

We'll dig into why.

来自NPR，我是斯科特·德特罗克斯。

From NPR, I'm Scott Detreaux.

这条信息来自Wise，一款为全球使用资金的国际人士设计的应用。

This message comes from Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe.

你可以通过几次简单的点击，发送、花费和接收多达40种货币。

You can send, spend, and receive in up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps.

聪明一点。

Be smart.

使用Wise。

Get Wise.

立即下载Wise应用或访问wise.com。

Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com.

条款和条件适用。

Ts and cs apply.

本广告由TED Talks Daily提供，这是TED的播客。

This message comes from TED Talks Daily, the podcast from TED.

你好奇如何自我介绍才能真正获得录用，或者为什么人们开始听起来像ChatGPT吗？

Curious how to introduce yourself so you actually get hired or why people are starting to sound like chat GPT?

总有一场TED演讲能解答这个问题。

There's a TED Talk for that.

在您收听播客的任何平台收听《TED Talks Daily》。

Listen to TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

This is Ira Glass.

在《This American Life》中，我们寻找那些出人意料、 elsewhere 听不到的故事。

On This American Life, we look for stories that are surprising that you won't hear anywhere else.

比如，这位去过月球的宇航员。

Like, for example, this one astronaut who went to the moon.

你知道他对什么不感兴趣吗？

You know what he's not into?

太空。

Space.

在失重状态下漂浮很酷吗？

Was it cool to float around weightless?

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

这是美国生活。

This is American life.

出人意料的故事。

Unexpected stories.

无论你在哪听播客。

Wherever you get your podcasts.

这是来自NPR的考虑一下。

It's consider this from NPR.

Epstein文件中的揭露已经让安德鲁王子变成了前安德鲁王子。

Revelations in the Epstein files had already made prince Andrew the former prince Andrew.

本周，他的哥哥查尔斯国王对有关安德鲁的指控表达了深切关注，并表示王室准备支持任何针对此事的警方调查。

This week, his brother king Charles expressed his profound concern over allegations about Andrew and said the palace was ready to, quote, support any police investigation into the matter.

最新一批文件还迫使前英国驻美大使彼得·门德尔森辞去了英国上议院议员和工党成员的职务。

The latest batch of documents has also forced one time ambassador to The US, Peter Mendelson, to resign from Britain's House of Lords and from the Labour Party.

这一连串后果正在威胁英国执政政府的稳定。

The fallout is threatening Britain's ruling government.

那么，这里究竟发生了什么？为什么乍一看，这些揭露在英国引发的后果比在美国更严重？

So what is going on here, and why at first glance are the revelations leading to more consequences in The UK than The US?

我带着这些问题请教了爱德华·卢斯。

I took these questions to Edward Luce.

他是《金融时报》的首席美国评论员。

He's the chief US commentator for the Financial Times.

让我们先从这位前英国驻美大使彼得·门德尔森说起。

Let's start with that former British ambassador to The US, Peter Mendelson.

在这些爆料之前，他在政治和工党内部扮演了怎样的角色？

Remind us what his role in politics and within the Labour Party was before these revelations.

多年来，他一直是英国左翼阵营中一位颇具传奇色彩的人物。

Well, he's been a a sort of storied figure on The UK left for decades.

他是托尼·布莱尔新工党第三条道路政治的共同设计者，与克林顿家族关系密切。

He was the co architect with Tony Blair of Tony Blair's new labor third wave politics, post ties with the Clintons.

因此，他被视为英国工党最伟大的人物之一，但同时也是现代英国政治中最具争议的人物之一，因为他的道德操守备受质疑。

And so he's he's considered to be one of the great figures of the British labor party, but he's also one of the most controversial figures of modern British politics because of his questionable ethics.

他已经被解雇过三次了。

Three times now, he's been fired.

关于道德操守问题，这批最新文件中有一些特别引人注目、登上头条的内容。

On topic of questionable ethics, there's a few things that really jumped out and made headlines in this latest trove of files.

究竟是什么具体原因导致他被逐出上议院，并对斯塔默政府施加了日益加剧的压力？

What specifically led to his ouster from the house of lords and this kind of escalating pressure on Starmer's government?

原来，在2008年全球金融危机高峰期，当时担任戈登·布朗领导的英国工党政府要职的曼德尔森，曾与爱泼斯坦保持联系，实际上向爱泼斯坦泄露了戈登·布朗政府内部关于多项影响市场的敏感信息。

So it turns out that in 2008, during the peak of the global financial crisis, Mandelson, who was then serving the British labor government led by Gordon Brown, was in contact with Epstein and, in fact, passing on to Epstein privileged insider information from within Gordon Brown's government about a number of market moving, market sensitive things.

这被认为违反了多项法律，是多年来英国遭遇的最重大的政治丑闻之一。

So this is considered to be in breach of several laws and and one of the biggest political scandals in many years to have hit Britain.

这与基尔斯塔默有何关联？可以说，他当时已经承受巨大压力，民调支持率低迷。

And how does that tie to Kirstjarmur, who it's fair to say was under tremendous pressure already, low in the public opinion polls?

可以说，他的政府在这件事之前就已经岌岌可危了吗？

Is it fair to say his government was already kind of teetering on the edge before this?

基尔斯塔德几个月来一直麻烦不断。

Kirst Ahmad's been in trouble for many, many months.

他的政党在民调中的支持率远低于奈杰尔·法拉奇的亲MAGA改革党。

His party's opinion poll is rating way below Nigel Farage's pro MAGA reform party in the opinion polls.

他拥有压倒性多数席位，却似乎毫无作为。

He's got a massive majority and yet seems to be going nowhere with it.

尽管知道曼德尔森曾与杰弗里·爱泼斯坦有某种关联，他仍任命曼德尔森为英国驻外大使，这又给了反对者攻击他政府的另一个把柄。

And his appointment of Mandelson as Britain's ambassador, in spite of knowing of at least some of Mandelson's former association with Jeffrey Epstein, is just another stick with which to beat his government.

这显示出判断力的缺失。

It shows lack of judgment.

这暴露出斯塔默尽管拥有如此庞大的多数席位，却未能兑现他此前承诺的掌控力。

It shows the sort of failure to take control that Starmer with such a big majority so recently had been promising to deliver.

因此，这可能是他首相生涯的终结。

So so it's it's it's potentially the end of his prime ministership.

你认为这会多快发生？

How quickly do you think that would come?

我们今天周一下午谈话时，已经有一些知名的工党人物呼吁他辞职，但他的政府中仍有更多人至少目前仍支持他。

As we talk Monday afternoon, you've had a couple high profile labor figures calling for him to resign, but but a lot more people in his government sticking with him at least for now.

然后你提到了戈登·布朗，上周末我看到了相关消息。

And then you mentioned Gordon Brown I saw over the weekend.

他多次攻击柯尔斯塔穆尔，这在我看来有些不同寻常。

He was taking several shots at at Kirstjarmur, which seemed unusual to me.

是的。

Yes.

他确实这么做了。

He did.

我的意思是，戈登·布朗非常愤怒。

I mean, Gordon Brown is furious.

他觉得自己被门德尔森背叛了。

He feels betrayed by Mendelson.

我认为，就像英国更广泛的劳工运动中的其他人一样，对一个看似正在失败的政府感到担忧。

And I think probably as concerned as anybody else in the broader labor movement in Britain about a government that appears to be failing.

根据工党的规则，要罢免一位领导人或首相是相当困难的。

So it's quite hard under the labor party's rules to remove a leader, a prime minister.

保守党要这么做则容易得多。

Much easier for conservatives to do it.

如果你还记得利兹·特拉斯，那位著名的仅执政49天的首相，但看起来他现在正在动摇。

If you remember Liz Truss, the famous forty nine day premiership, but it looks like he's wobbling.

我应该补充一点，上周末他失去了他的首席战略家兼幕僚长摩根·麦克斯威尼。

And I should add that he lost over the weekend his chief strategist and chief of staff, Morgan McSweeney.

他已经离职了，因此他现在不再有战略顾问。

He has gone, so he no longer has a strategist.

正如俗话所说，水中已经有了血腥味。

There is blood in the water as the cliche goes.

是的。

Yeah.

我想在那之后做个宏观回顾，但我想先请你简要更新一下关于前安德鲁王子的情况。

I wanna zoom out after this, but I did wanna get a quick update from you on on the former prince Andrew.

我的意思是，这件事已经持续太久了。

I mean, this has been going on for so long.

他已经被羞辱了又羞辱，次数多到甚至有一部关于他与杰弗里·爱泼斯坦丑闻的电影已经制作并上映了。

He's been disgraced and disgraced again so many times that a movie has been made, produced, and released about his disgrace tied to Jeffrey Epstein.

但过去一周，他似乎还被进一步边缘化了，不是吗？

And yet there was still there was still more way to be marginalized over the past week, wasn't there?

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，安德鲁已经变成了一种全国性的耻辱和尴尬的象征，甚至成了个笑话。

I mean, Andrew has become a sort of national sort of symbol of shame and embarrassment and a bit of a joke.

人们称他为‘前王子安德鲁’。

People refer to him as the Andrew formerly known as Prince.

最近司法部发布了多达三百万页的文件，安德鲁的名字在其中随处可见。

The recent Department of Justice, you know, 3,000,000 page release, Andrew's name is all over that.

因此，尽管他已被剥夺了头衔、王室地位，以及随之而来的金钱和财产，但看起来他还有更大的落差要面对。

And so even though he's been deprived of his title and his, you know, royal standing and indeed the money that comes with it and the property that comes with it, it looks like he's got further to fall.

你在美國一直關注這件事。

You've paid attention to this in The US.

你在英國也一直關注這件事。

You've paid attention to this in The UK.

你認為，為什麼目前在英國似乎比在美國產生了更多後果？

Why do you think it is that there seem to be more consequences right now, at least, in Britain than in America?

我認為主要差異在於，總統唐納德·特朗普似乎對與 Epstein 檔案相關的進一步揭露或調查毫無興趣。

I I think the big difference is probably the fact that the president Donald Trump, you know, seems to have no interest in further revelations or inquiries related to the Epstein files.

為了保住自己的職位，基爾斯塔瑪不得不支持倫敦大都會警察局對彼得·曼德爾森展開強有力的刑事調查，以確保自己的政治生存。

Kirstjarma has been forced in order to try and defend his job into supporting strong London Metropolitan Police criminal investigations into Peter Mandelson for his own political survival.

而我認為，特朗普的直覺恰恰相反——他希望翻過這頁，結束 Epstein 丑聞，據他的批評者稱，這是為了他自己的政治生存。

Whereas, I think it appears that president Trump's instincts are quite the opposite, that he wants to move on from turn the page from the Epstein scandal, allegedly, according to Trump's critics, for his own political survival.

因此，他們的立場正在背道而馳。

So their instincts are diverging.

这是《金融时报》的美国版主编兼专栏作家爱德华·卢斯。

That's Edward Luce, US national editor and columnist for the Financial Times.

感谢您和我们讨论这个话题。

Thanks for talking about this with us.

非常荣幸。

It's a pleasure.

谢谢。

Thank you.

另外请注意，彼得·曼德尔森尚未回应NPR的问询，也未就他与杰弗里·爱泼斯坦之间疑似邮件往来发表评论。

And just to note, Peter Mandelson has not responded to NPR's inquiries and has not commented on the apparent emails between him and Jeffrey Epstein.

凯尔·斯塔莫尔表示，他后悔任命曼德尔森为大使，但他并不打算辞职；而前安德鲁王子则一贯否认所有不当行为。

Kear Starmor says he regrets appointing Mandelson as ambassador, but he's not planning to step down, and the former prince Andrew consistently denies all wrongdoing.

本集节目由乔丹·玛丽·史密斯和康纳·多诺万制作，音频工程由汉娜·格洛韦娜负责。

This episode was produced by Jordan Marie Smith and Connor Donovan with audio engineering by Hannah Glovena.

本集由帕特里克·贾伦·瓦塔纳南和迈克尔·列文编辑。

It was edited by Patrick Jaren Watananan and Michael Levin.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这是来自NPR的Consider This。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是斯科特·德特罗。

I'm Scott Detrow.

你最喜欢的NPR播客还能怎么更好呢？

How could your favorite NPR podcast get any better?

如果它能提供额外内容，比如延长版访谈和零广告中断，那会怎样？

Well, what if it had bonus features such as extended interviews and zero sponsor breaks?

有一个非常简单的方法，能把这个幻想变成现实。

There is a remarkably easy way to turn that fantasy into reality.

它叫做NPR Plus。

It's called NPR Plus.

你可以享受超过25个NPR播客的专属福利，同时支持制作它们的团队。

You get perks across more than 25 NPR podcasts while supporting the teams that make them.

通过访问 +.npr.org，让优秀的播客变得更出色。

Make great podcasts even greater by visiting +.npr.org.

在NPR的《Throughline》播客中，讲述了一位前奴隶主如何对抗并击败三K党。

On the Throughline podcast from NPR, the former slaveholder who took on the KKK and won.

随着时间推移，他变得越来越、越来越、越来越激进。

He became more and more and more militant as time went on.

在NPR应用中，或在您收听播客的任何平台收听《Throughline》。

Listen to Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

想在没有广告的情况下收听这个播客吗？

Wanna hear this podcast without sponsor breaks?

亚马逊Prime会员可以通过亚马逊音乐收听无广告的《Consider This》，或者您也可以通过访问 +.npr.org 支持NPR的重要新闻报道，并获取《Consider This Plus》。

Amazon Prime members can listen to Consider This sponsor free through Amazon Music, or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this plus at +.npr.org.

那就是 +.npr.org。

That's +.npr.org.