特朗普司法部如何针对其 perceived 反对者

在竞选期间，特朗普总统做出了以下承诺。

On the campaign trail, here is what president Trump promised.

对于那些被伤害和背叛的人，我就是你们的报复。

And for those who have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution.

我就是你们的报复。

I am your retribution.

在他重返总统职位的第一年，特朗普总统动用了政府的多种手段，对那些他认为伤害或背叛过他的人进行报复。

In his first year back in office, president Trump has pulled many different levers of government to pursue revenge against those he sees as having wronged or betrayed him.

坦率地说，美联储里有个蠢人。

We have a a stupid person, frankly, at the Fed.

他这里指的是美联储主席杰罗姆·鲍威尔。

There he is referring to Federal Reserve chairman Jerome Powell.

华盛顿的美国检察官正在调查鲍威尔在建筑翻新项目中超预算的问题。

The US attorney in Washington is investigating Powell over building renovations that are running over budget.

那么，以下是鲍威尔周日的回应。

Well, here's how Powell responded on Sunday.

威胁要提出刑事指控，是因为美联储基于对公众利益的最佳判断来设定利率，而不是遵从总统的偏好。

The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment of what will serve the public rather than following the preferences of the president.

本周，几名明尼苏达州的联邦检察官辞职了。

This was also the week where several Minnesota federal prosecutors resigned.

司法部曾敦促他们调查的不是雷妮·麦金·古德被杀案，而是她现在的遗孀与活动团体的关联。

The DOJ had pushed them to investigate not the killing of Renee Macklin Good, but instead the woman who is now her widow for her ties to activist groups.

本周另一则与司法部相关的新闻是，五名现任民主党议员表示，联邦检察官最近联系了他们进行问询。

And then another headline tied to the justice department this week, five sitting Democratic lawmakers said that federal prosecutors recently contacted them for questioning.

去年，他们都录制了一段视频声明，敦促军人拒绝非法命令。

Last year, they had all made a statement on video urging members of the military to refuse illegal orders.

其中一位议员是密歇根州参议员艾莉莎·斯洛特金。

One of those lawmakers was Michigan senator Alyssa Slotkin.

我认为这是为了让你闭嘴。

I think it's meant to get you to shut up.

斯洛特金参议员周四接受了我的同事朱安娜·萨默斯的采访。

Senator Slotkin spoke to my colleague, Juana Summers, on Thursday.

她说，美国检察官并未说明他们是否在调查犯罪行为。

She said the US attorneys did not say if they were investigating a crime.

仅仅因为他们发起了这一行动，你就得找律师、制定策略、进行这些对话，这才是关键。

Just the mere fact that they've initiated this, that you have to get a lawyer, you have to come up with a strategy, you have to have these conversations is the point.

对吧？

Right?

恐吓才是目的。

The intimidation is the point.

想想这个。

Consider this.

本周，司法部明确表示，正以联邦起诉的威胁针对特朗普的所谓敌人。

This week, the justice department made it clear that it is targeting Trump's perceived enemies with threats of federal prosecution.

广告后，我们将更深入地审视最近的升级行动。

After the break, a closer look at the most recent escalation.

来自NPR，我是尔莎·张。

From NPR, I'm Elsa Chang.

这条信息来自Wise，一款专为全球使用资金的国际用户设计的应用。

This message comes from Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe.

您只需轻点几下，即可发送、消费和接收多达40种货币。

You can send, spend, and receive in up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps.

聪明一点。

Be smart.

下载Wise。

Get Wise.

今天就下载Wise应用，或访问wise.com。

Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com.

条款和条件适用。

Ts and cs apply.

这条信息来自NBC新闻原创播客《Here's the Scoop》。

This message comes from the NBC News original podcast, here's the scoop.

每天傍晚，跟随NBC新闻记者深入剖析当天的头条新闻，从头版要闻到时代潮流，十五分钟内轻松掌握。

Every evening, join NBC News reporters for a deep dive into the day's top stories from the front page to the zeitgeist in fifteen minutes or less.

搜索“here's the scoop”来关注我们。

Search here's the scoop to follow now.

在《Radiolab》，我们最喜欢的就是沉迷于科学、神经科学和化学。

At Radiolab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science, neuroscience, chemistry.

但我们确实也喜欢

But but we do also like

去探索其他类型的故事。

to get into other kinds of stories.

关于执法或政治的故事。

Stories about policing or Politics.

乡村音乐。

Country music.

冰球。

Hockey.

昆虫的性别。

Sex of bugs.

无论我们关注的是科学还是非科学领域，我们都以严谨的好奇心为您提供答案。

Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science, we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers.

并希望让您以全新的视角看待这个世界。

And hopefully, make you see the world anew.

《RadioLab》，探索我们自以为已知事物边缘的冒险。

RadioLab, adventures on the edge of what we think we know.

无论您在何处收听播客。

Wherever you get your podcasts.

这是NPR的《就此而言》。

It's Consider This from NPR.

司法部再次成为新闻焦点，正在调查联邦议员、美联储主席，以及明尼苏达州职业检察官的辞职事件。

The Department of Justice is once again at the center of the news with investigations of federal lawmakers and the chairman of the Federal Reserve and resignations by career prosecutors in Minnesota.

因此，我们邀请了NPR资深政治编辑兼记者多梅尼科·蒙塔纳罗和NPR司法记者卡莉·约翰逊，谈谈过去一周发生了什么。

So we have asked NPR senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro and NPR justice correspondent Carrie Johnson to talk about what's been happening over the last week.

两位好。

Hello to both of you.

嗨。

Hey there.

你好。

Hi there.

卡莉，我们先从你开始。

Carrie, let's start with you.

感觉这一周我们一直在看到司法部和特朗普政府的升级，无论是在这一届政府使用的手段上，还是在他们敢于突破法律边界的态度上。

It feels like we have been seeing, like, an escalation for the justice department and the Trump administration this week, like, both when it comes to the tactics that this administration uses and their willingness to push the boundaries of the law.

对吧？

Right?

你认为这一切都是某个更大目标的一部分吗？

Is this all part of some bigger goal, you think?

当然。

Definitely.

过去一周发生的几乎所有事情，其实都可以在就职日当天预测到。

Virtually everything that's happened over the past week could have been predicted on inauguration day.

特朗普总统回到白宫，承诺调查他所认为的政治对手。

President Trump returned to the White House promising to investigate his perceived political enemies.

选举之后，人们担心司法部，但那里的变化比许多人担心的更加广泛和迅速。

And after the election, people were worried about DOJ, but changes there have been more sweeping and more quick than many of them feared.

最高法院在豁免案中明确指出，特朗普总统及未来的总统对其在任期间的官方行为基本享有免于起诉的豁免权。

The Supreme Court in the immunity case made clear president Trump and future presidents are largely immune from prosecution for their official actions in office.

因此，这是一支在特朗普全面掌控下的积极进取的司法部，实际上是他在竞选期间言论的最终体现。

And so this is an aggressive justice department under Trump's full command, really the culmination of statements he made on the campaign trail.

没错。

That's right.

在竞选期间，因为他作为候选人曾承诺，要打击他的敌人。

On the campaign trail because as a candidate, he promised, right, to go after his enemies.

他还承诺对移民问题采取强硬立场。

He he also promised to be tough on immigration.

多梅尼科，人们如何回应明尼苏达州发生的事情？

Domenico, how are people responding to what's been happening in Minnesota specifically?

明尼阿波利斯的情况凸显了特朗普政府的一些强硬手段。

Well, the situation in Minneapolis is really highlighting some of these aggressive tactics of the Trump administration.

本周有几家机构发布了新的民调数据。

There's new polling this week, out from a couple of outfits.

昆尼皮亚克民调发现，57%的人不赞成移民与海关执法局执行移民法律的方式。

Quinnipiac poll found that 57% disapprove of the way that ICE is enforcing immigration laws.

53%的人认为这次枪击事件并不合理，只有35%的人认为是合理的。

53% said that they don't think that the shooting was justified while only 35% say that it was.

这已成为特朗普在移民问题上的一个真正难题，而移民原本是他的一项优势。

And this has become the real problem for Trump on something that had been an advantage with immigration.

人们可能支持遣返非法居留的罪犯，但几个月来他们一直表示，认为本届政府在遣返问题上的做法过于极端或过于严苛，这已经拖累了特朗普在移民问题上的整体支持率。

You know, people may be in favor of deporting criminals who are in the country illegally, but they've also been saying for months that they see this administration's approach as going too far or acting too harshly when it comes to deportations, and that's been dragging down Trump's numbers overall on immigration.

明尼苏达州，我只是说，这只是本周故事的一部分。

Well, Minnesota, I mean, it's just one part of the story this week.

对吧？

Right?

比如，国会中的民主党人表示，他们因一段敦促军人无视非法命令的视频而遭到调查。

Like, Democrats in congress say that they are being investigated over a video urging military members to disregard illegal orders.

这些调查与我们之前讨论的内容有什么关联？

How do those investigations fit into what we've been talking about?

是的。

Yes.

本周，几位民主党人告诉我们，他们收到了联邦调查局官员的联系，希望对他们进行面谈。

Several Democrats this week told us they've heard from the FBI and agents who wanna interview them.

他们表示，这侵犯了他们的第一修正案权利，也可能侵犯了他们作为议员履行职责时的权利。

They say this is an infringement on their First Amendment rights and potentially their rights as lawmakers as they try to do their jobs.

其中一位是亚利桑那州的参议员马克·凯利，他甚至已起诉五角大楼，因为五角大楼威胁要因他在那段视频中的言论削减他的军衔和福利。

One of them, senator Mark Kelly of Arizona, has gone so far as to sue the Pentagon, which has been threatening to reduce his rank and benefits over what he said in that video.

是的。

Yeah.

从纯粹的政治角度来看，我必须说，共和党人真的希望提升像马克·凯利（亚利桑那州参议员）或艾莉莎·斯洛特金（密歇根州参议员）这样的人的知名度吗？

And I have to say from a raw politics perspective, I mean, do Republicans really wanna elevate the profiles of people like Mark Kelly, the senator from Arizona, or Alyssa Slotkin, the senator from Michigan?

他们是民主党党内较为温和的两位成员。

They're two of the more moderate members of the Democratic caucus.

谈论的是一位宇航员，前中央情报局分析员。

Talking about an astronaut, a former CIA analyst.

我的意思是，他们作为2028年的候选人，形象相当不错。

I mean, they'd cut pretty good profiles for twenty twenty eight candidates.

我敢说，如果不是特朗普政府如此针对他们，尤其是凯利，他本不会像现在这样成为2028年讨论的焦点人物。

And I'd venture to say that if not for how the Trump administration has gone after them, Kelly in particular would not likely be somebody who's as much part of the twenty twenty eight conversation as he is now.

而且，从政治角度来看，这些人物也不属于共和党通常希望突出的民主党派系。

And it's also just not the wing of the Democratic party that politically you would think the Republicans would wanna highlight.

所以也许他们是在自损利益。

So maybe they're shooting themselves in the foot.

这周还有更多情况。

Well, there was more this week.

司法部正在调查杰罗姆·鲍威尔，正如我们所说，他是美联储主席。

The Department of Justice is investigating Jerome Powell, as we said, the chairman of the Federal Reserve.

然后我们看到，联邦调查局搜查了一位《华盛顿邮报》记者的家。

And then we saw that the FBI searched the home of a Washington Post journalist.

卡莉，你能解释一下这些方面到底发生了什么吗？

Carrie, can you just explain what's been happening on those fronts?

是的。

Yeah.

真是风起云涌。

A real whirlwind.

周日晚上，美联储主席杰罗姆·鲍威尔发布了一段视频，解释称自己似乎因在国会山就美联储大楼翻修事宜所作的证词而面临刑事调查。

On Sunday night, Jerome Powell, the Fed chairman, made a video explaining that he seemed to be under criminal investigation for testimony he gave on Capitol Hill about renovations to the Fed's buildings.

鲍威尔基本表示，这是一场烟雾弹，特朗普总统想借此将他赶下台，因为美联储在利率问题上的行动速度没有达到特朗普的期望。

Powell basically said this was a smokescreen that president Trump wants to get rid of him because the Fed wasn't moving as quickly as Trump wanted on interest rates.

几天后，联邦调查局特工一大早就来到《华盛顿邮报》记者的家中。

And then a few days later, FBI agents showed up in the morning at the home of a Washington Post reporter.

他们拿走了两台笔记本电脑、一部手机和一只智能手表。

They took two laptops, a phone, and a smartwatch.

司法部表示，这与一项针对被指控保留政府机密的联邦承包商的调查有关。

The justice department says this is tied to an investigation of a federal contractor who's been accused of retaining government secrets.

但搜查记者的家是一个惊人的举动，以往的政府都避免这样做，而且这也可能违反了联邦隐私法。

But to search a reporter's home is a stunning step, one that past administrations had avoided and one that also may run afoul of a federal privacy law.

我的意思是，报复似乎已成为特朗普第二任期的一个主要主题。

I mean, it seems like retribution is a major theme now in Trump's second term.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

这是一个巨大的驱动力。

It's a huge motivating factor.

我的意思是，别忘了，他多年来一直受到针对他的调查的困扰，一直承诺要进行报复。

I mean, remember, he's been smarting from investigations that were going into him for years, and he's been promising, quote, unquote, retribution.

现在这一切正在成真。

And that's coming to fruition now.

你知道，这在第二任期中真的变成了一种政治纲领，成为保守派不满情绪的燃料。

You know, it's really become a sort of political platform in the second term, fuel for conservative grievance.

他针对了无数被视作政治敌人的对象，无论是曾公开批评他的前官员、记者、大学、律师事务所，等等，不一而足。

He's gone after any number of perceived political enemies, whether it's former officials who've spoken out against him, journalists, universities, law firms, you name it.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，卡莉，司法部内部的人对这些反弹有何反应？

Well, Carrie, how are people inside the justice department responding to some of this backlash?

他们对针对杰罗姆·鲍威尔的调查或那段关于民主党议员的视频没有多说什么，但他们为明尼苏达州的移民行动进行了辩护。

They're not saying much about the investigation of Jerome Powell or the one of Democratic lawmakers on the video, but they are defending the immigration efforts in Minnesota.

副司法部长托德·布兰奇表示，联邦移民官员在明尼阿波利斯混乱的环境中冒着生命危险，必须做出瞬间决策。

The deputy attorney general Todd Blanche says federal immigration officers are risking their lives in Minneapolis under chaotic conditions, and they have to make split second decisions.

他说，他看不到任何理由对雷妮·麦金利·古德的死亡展开民权调查。

He says he sees no reason to open a civil rights investigation into Renee Macklin Good's death.

相反，司法部似乎想调查古德的遗孀及其与活动团体的任何关联。

Instead, DOJ seems to wanna investigate Good's widow and any ties she has to activist groups.

这种调查方向似乎并未得到司法部一些职业检察官的认可。

And that suggested direction of the investigation does not seem to have gone over well with some of the career prosecutors in the DOJ.

对吧？

Right?

那么，那里最新的情况是什么？

Like, what's the latest there?

明尼苏达州联邦检察官办公室出现了严重动荡。

Major unrest in the US attorney's office in Minnesota.

多名检察官辞职。

Several prosecutors quit.

这些辞职是自特朗普上台以来在全国范围内发生的一系列事件的一部分，包括田纳西州、华盛顿特区、弗吉尼亚州，当然还有去年纽约发生的撤销对前纽约市市长埃里克·亚当斯起诉的事件。

These resignations are part of a broader pattern that's been happening across the country since Trump took office in Tennessee, DC, Virginia, and, of course, what happened in last year in New York with the dropping of the case against Former New York City mayor Eric Adams.

在所有这些案例中，职业检察官的职业道德都受到了考验。

In all of these instances, the ethics of career prosecutors are being put to the test.

只要总统命令司法部针对他的批评者，这种情况就很可能继续发生。

And so long as the president commands the justice department to target his critics, it's likely to keep happening.

那么，我想知道的是，多梅尼科，我们已经看到特朗普以前采取过激进的做法，当时法院曾介入，或者公众舆论转向反对他。

Well, what I wanna know, Domenico, is I mean, we've seen Trump take an aggressive approach before, and courts have stepped in or public sentiment has turned against him.

所以我想知道，你在这段时间注意到特朗普的反应有什么不同吗？

So I'm wondering what are you noticing about how Trump is responding in this moment?

我的意思是，特朗普试图集中权力并试探权力的边界，我一直认为这可能会定义他的第二任期，而这些边界现在主要由法院来决定。

Well, I mean, Trump trying to centralize power and finding out what the guardrails are is something that I always thought might define the second term, and those are really being determined now mostly by the courts.

你知道，政治也可以提供一些制约。

You know, politics can also provide some guardrails.

你知道，如果某件事不受欢迎，政客们通常会试图退让。

You know, if something's unpopular, politicians usually try and dial it back.

我们在特朗普第一任期的儿童分离政策上就看到过这种情况，但这并不是特朗普的风格。

We saw that in Trump's first term with child separation policies, but it's not really Trump's style.

而且，显然，在他的第二任期，由于任期受限，如果他认为共和党今年无论如何都会失去众议院，那么看到他更加肆无忌惮也不会令人惊讶。

And, obviously, here in the second term with him term limited, wouldn't be surprising to see him be even more unrestrained, especially if he thinks that Republicans are gonna lose the house this year anyway.

这是NPR的多梅尼科·蒙塔尼亚罗和凯莉·约翰逊。

That is NPR's Domenico Montagnaro and Carrie Johnson.

谢谢你们两位。

Thank you to both of you.

不客气。

You're welcome.

我的荣幸。

My pleasure.

本集由梅根·林和凯伦·扎莫拉制作。

This episode was produced by Megan Lim and Karen Zamora.

本集由凯尔西·斯内尔、约翰·凯奇姆和帕特里克·贾雷南恩编辑。

It was edited by Kelsey Snell, John Ketchum, and Patrick Jaren Watananen.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

感谢我们的《Consider This Plus》听众，你们支持NPR记者的工作，帮助维持公共广播的活力。

And thank you to our Consider This Plus listeners who support the work of NPR journalists and help keep public radio strong.

支持者还能在没有广告插播的情况下收听每一集，并解锁《考虑一下》的附加剧集。

Supporters also hear every episode without messages from sponsors and unlock bonus episodes of Consider This.

了解更多，请访问 plus.npr.org。

Learn more at plus.npr.org.

这是来自NPR的《考虑一下》。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是Elsa Chang。

I'm Elsa Chang.

眼下发生了许多事情：经济不平等加剧、民主受到威胁、环境灾难频发，空气中弥漫着混乱的腐臭气息。

There's a lot going on right now, mounting economic inequality, threats to democracy, environmental disaster, the sour stench of chaos in the air.

我是WNYC《媒体观察》节目的主持人Brooke Gladstone。

I'm Brooke Gladstone, host of WNYC's On the Media.

你想了解是什么原因和叙事导致了今天的局面，并可能如何在事态恶化前加以阻止吗？

Want to understand the reasons and the meanings of the narratives that led us here and maybe how to head them off at the past?

这正是《媒体观察》的专长。

That's On the Media specialty.

在您收听播客的任何平台都可以收听。

Take a listen wherever you get your podcasts.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

This is Ira Glass.

在《This American Life》中，我们喜欢的是一个好谜题。

On This American Life, one that we like is a good mystery.

有时是关于重大的事情，但大多数时候，小谜题才是最好的。

Sometimes about really big things, but most times, the little mysteries are the best.

我们的失物招领处现在堆满了裤子。

Our lost and found is currently filled with pants.

我不知道，我从没见过这种情况。

I don't know what I I I've never seen this happen.

这是真的吗？

This is true?

这是真的。

This is true.

每周都有各种规模的谜团。

Mysteries of every size each week.

《This American Life》，在你收听播客的任何平台。

This American Life, wherever you get your podcasts.