特朗普的外交政策是否回到了过去？

我们将使美国再次伟大。

We will make America great again.

这个口号在我们的政治生态中已经存在了十年，但人们一直不清楚特朗普总统所指的是美国历史上的哪个时期。

That phrase has been in our political ecosystem for ten years now, but it's never been entirely clear what time period in American history president Trump was referencing.

是上世纪八十年代吗？

Is it the nineteen eighties?

也许是上世纪五十年代？

Maybe the nineteen fifties?

再往前呢？

What about further back?

比如说十九世纪九十年代。

Say the eighteen nineties.

当我们进入特朗普第二任期的第二年时，是否正在出现一个十九世纪的总统任期？

As we enter the second year of Trump's second term, is a nineteenth century presidency emerging?

有关税。

There's tariffs.

总统宣布，我们与之贸易的每个国家的商品都将被征收进口税。

The president announced goods from every nation we trade with will be subject to import taxes.

这呼应了摩洛哥在CBS上解释的1890年关税法案。

Which echoed the tariff act of 1890 as Morocco explained on CBS.

1890年的麦金莱关税将税率提高到了高达50%。

The 1890 McKinley tariff raised rates as high as 50%.

在十九世纪末，铁路行业赚取了数十亿美元，并与政治权势人物关系密切。

In the late nineteenth century, the railroad industry raked in billions of dollars and cozied up to political power brokers.

这是一段NBC制作的教育影片，解释了那个时代最大的丑闻之一。

Here's an NBC educational film explaining one of the biggest scandals of the era.

其中一起丑闻涉及一家名为信贷动员公司的铁路公司，1872年，其股东欺骗公司，盗取了数百万美元。

One involved a railroad company called Credit Mobilier, where in 1872, stockholders cheated their own company out of millions of dollars.

这些股东中包括美国国会议员以及格兰特总统自己的副总统斯凯勒·科尔法克斯。

Among the stockholders were members of the United States Congress and Grant's own vice president, Skyler Colfax.

如今，人工智能是价值数十亿美元的产业，其领导者们正在向现任政府捐款并寻求特权。

Now AI is the billion dollar industry, and its leaders are donating money and courting favors with the current administration.

亚马逊由杰夫·贝索斯领导，向特朗普的就职基金捐赠了100万美元。

Amazon, led by Jeff Bezos, is donating $1,000,000 to Trump's inauguration fund.

由马克·扎克伯格领导的Meta也向该基金捐赠了100万美元。

Meta, led by Mark Zuckerberg, is also giving a million dollars to the fund.

OpenAI首席执行官萨姆·阿尔特曼也个人捐赠了100万美元。

And OpenAI CEO Sam Altman is also making a personal donation of $1,000,000.

还有外交政策。

And then there's foreign policy.

正如Ted Ed所展示的，从1867年到1899年，美国收购了多个领土，包括夏威夷群岛，尽管当地原住民提出了抗议。

As laid out here on Ted Ed, from 1867 to 1899, The United States acquired several territories, including the Hawaiian Islands despite protests from the native population.

这一年，美西战争爆发。

Year, the Spanish American war began.

由于将夏威夷视为战略军事基地，威廉·麦金莱总统宣布其为美国领土。

Seeing Hawaii as a strategic military base, president William McKinley declared it a US territory.

如今在2026年，美国推翻了委内瑞拉的领导人，特朗普总统宣布

Now in 2026, The US has removed the leader of Venezuela, and president Trump has declared

我们将继续管理国家，直到能够实现安全、妥善且审慎的权力交接。

We're going to run the country until such time as we can do a safe, proper, and judicious transition.

特朗普刚说完这句话，他的首席顾问斯蒂芬·米勒又抛出了另一个领土议题。

Shortly after Trump said that, his top aide, Stephen Miller, threw another territory into the mix.

美国应该把格陵兰岛纳入美国版图。

The United States should have Greenland as part of The United States.

请考虑一下这一点。

Consider this.

我们或许生活在二十一世纪，但特朗普总统的政策却越来越像十九世纪的政策。

We may be living in the twenty first century, but president Trump's policies increasingly echo those of the nineteenth century.

来自NPR，我是斯科特·德特罗。

From NPR, I'm Scott Dettrow.

本信息由Wise提供，Wise是为全球使用货币的国际人士设计的应用程序。

This message comes from Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe.

您只需轻点几下，即可发送、消费和接收多达40种货币。

You can send, spend, and receive in up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps.

聪明一点。

Be smart.

使用Wise。

Get Wise.

立即下载Wise应用或访问wise.com。

Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com.

条款和条件适用。

Ts and cs apply.

你是否考虑在新的一年里做出一些改变？

Are you thinking about making any changes in the new year?

《生活工具箱》播客来帮您了。

The Life Kit podcast is here to help.

每期节目，我们都会提供经过研究验证的策略和专家建议，涵盖从备餐、增强人际关系到偿还信用卡债务等各种主题。

In each episode, we have research backed strategies and expert advice on everything from meal prep to strengthening relationships to paying down your credit card debt.

让您的决心真正落实。

Make your resolutions stick.

在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台收听《Life Kit》播客。

Listen to the Life Kit podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

基因组学先驱罗伯特·格林表示，许多父母希望为健康的新生儿进行DNA筛查，以检测可能在日后才显现的疾病。

Genomics pioneer Robert Green says many parents want their healthy newborns DNA screened for diseases that may or may not show up later in life.

有一种观点认为，知识就是力量，许多家庭希望了解一切信息，无论是否可治疗。

There is an argument that knowledge is power, and many families would like to know everything, whether it's treatable or not.

关于揭示婴儿DNA秘密的争论。

The debate over revealing the secrets in babies' DNA.

在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台收听《TED Radio Hour》。

Listen to the TED Radio Hour on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

这是来自NPR的《Consider This》。

It's consider this from NPR.

委内瑞拉总统尼古拉斯·马杜罗的下台，以及特朗普政府重新呼吁将格陵兰并入美国，表明特朗普政府可能正在改变世界秩序。

The ousting of Venezuelan president Nicolas Maduro, plus the Trump administration's renewed calls for Greenland to become part of The United States, signaled the Trump administration may be changing the world order.

与我一起深入讨论这一问题的是迈克尔·弗罗曼。

Joining me to discuss this further is Michael Froman.

他是外交关系委员会主席，并曾担任奥巴马总统的贸易代表。

He is the president of the council on foreign relations and served as president Obama's trade representative.

我想从美国军队进入委内瑞拉并逮捕其总统说起。

I wanna start with the US military going into Venezuela and seizing its president.

你的反应是什么？

What was your response?

你当时想到了什么？

What did you think about?

首先，我不认为人们应该为马杜罗感到太多惋惜，他是一位残酷的领导人，据称在其任内腐败且涉嫌犯罪。

Well, first, I I don't think that, there's any great tears to be shed over over Maduro, who was a a ruthless leader and and alleged to be quite corrupt and criminal in his activity.

然而，直接介入并推翻一个政府，显然与总统最初关于政权更迭和不干涉他国内政的立场相悖。

You know, however, going in and decapitating a government certainly seemed at odds with the President's initial views on regime change and getting involved in the internal affairs of other countries.

我们现在的情况是，我们似乎已经实施了政权更迭，但至少到目前为止，并未真正改变政权——马杜罗政府的其他成员，包括国防部长、内政部长和副总统（现为代理总统），仍然牢牢掌控着权力。

We now have a situation where we've sort of done regime change without, at least so far, changing the regime and that we've got the rest of the Maduro government including the Defense Minister, the Interior Minister, the Vice President, who's now Acting President, very much maintaining control.

从国际视角来看，正如你所说，这让人回想起美国曾公然宣称将使用武力或其他手段来扩张或确保资源获取的时期。

You know, think from an international perspective, as you said, this harkens back to a period of time when when The US would just declare that it it was gonna use force or other means to to expand or to secure access to resources.

我认为一个关键问题是，其他国家会如何解读这一举动？

I think one of the big questions is how do other countries interpret this?

你提到过我们经常听到的一个说法——基于规则的国际秩序。

You've talked about a phrase we've heard a lot, the rules based international order.

这是拜登政府非常关注的一个议题。

This is something the Biden administration was was very focused on.

欧洲的美国盟友也经常谈论这一点。

This is something American allies in in Europe talk a lot about.

其理念是存在一套规则和标准，各国都必须遵守。

The idea that that there is a set rules and standards, and countries have to follow them.

而史蒂芬·米勒和特朗普白宫其他人的观点是，这纯属虚假。

And the argument you hear from Stephen Miller and others in the Trump White House is that's bogus.

这不过是一层伪装，从未真正存在过，外交政策讲求的是实力、权力，是美国夺取它想要的东西。

That that's a veneer that's never been true, and foreign policy is about strength, and it's about power, it's about The US seizing what it wants.

如果美国未来的外交政策如此，世界会变成什么样？

What happens to the world if that's US foreign policy going forward?

所以，毫无疑问，权力一直是国际关系中的一个要素。

So the I mean, certainly, power has always been an element of international relations.

但二战后，美国决定可以通过让其他国家接受一套基本上由我们设计、并长期符合我们利益的规则来实现全球领导力并更有效地发挥其影响力。

But post Second World War, The US decided that it could exert global leadership and it could exert its power most effectively by getting other countries to buy into a set of rules that more or less we designed and that served our interests very well for a long period of time.

有时这涉及我们限制自己单边行动的能力，但无疑阻止了其他国家这样做，或试图阻止这种情况。

Now sometimes that involved us constraining our own capacity to act unilaterally, but it certainly prevented other countries from doing that or it tried to prevent that.

任何基于规则的体系都不完美。

No rules based system is perfect.

在国际法律体系中，我认为如果大多数国家在大多数时候遵守大多数规则，这已被视为一种成功。

In the international legal system, I think if most countries follow most of the rules most of the time, it has been deemed a success.

但米勒的观点难道没有道理吗？也许一直以来都是对的？

But does Miller have a point though that that might have been right all along?

美国及其盟友一直认为，直接与俄罗斯和乌克兰开战不符合他们的利益。

The US and its allies have not seen it in their interest to to go to war with Russia and Ukraine directly.

没有人阻止美国逮捕马杜罗。

No one stopped The United States from seizing Maduro.

然后米勒问，如果美国吞并了格陵兰，谁来阻止它？

And then Miller's saying, who's gonna stop America if if it seizes Greenland?

我认为斯蒂芬·米勒说得对，权力很重要，如何运用权力也很重要。

So I I think Stephen Miller is right that the power matters and how you exercise power matters.

我认为，八十年来，我们成功地利用权力和美国的领导力，塑造了一个几乎被所有其他国家接受的体系，这个体系总体上维护了世界和平。

I think the the question is we have been successful for eighty years in using our power and US leadership to shape a system that all of the other countries bought into more or less and that one kept the peace broadly in the world.

这一届政府的做法是：我们把这套体系放在一边，回到你所提到的更早的时期——那时关键在于硬实力，以及你如何运用它，还有其他国家是否能对此提出挑战。

What this administration has done is said, look, we're going to put that to the side and we're going to go back in many respects to, as you suggested, an earlier period where what mattered was your hard power and how you exercised it and whether any other country could stand up to you in doing so.

我们确实拥有世界上最大的军队，并且军费开支超过接下来几个国家的总和。

And we do have the largest military in the world and we do spend more on our military than the next several countries combined.

我们面临着真正的挑战，包括中国正在实施大规模的军事现代化计划和军事力量扩充。

We have real challenges out there, including China that is engaged in a major military modernization plan and a major military modernization build out.

但我们仍然是世界上主导性的军事强国。

But we are still the the dominant military power in the world.

问题是，我们该如何运用这种军事力量？

And the question is, how do we use that military power?

我的意思是，你正在非常理性且战略性地谈论这个问题，但到目前为止，我们难道没有大量证据表明，许多决策只是出于我想为美国增添些什么的意愿吗？

I mean, you're speaking about this very rationally and strategically, but don't we have a lot of evidence at this point that a lot of the decision making is just, I would like to add to The United States.

我想以某种方式在特朗普政府和特朗普总统本人身上留下自己的印记。

I would like to leave my mark in one way or another with with the Trump White House and president Trump specifically.

看起来他确实公开说过，这正是他采取这些行动的部分原因。

Like, it seems like he's talked out loud about that being kind of what part of the reasons he's taking these actions.

好吧，你看。

Well, look.

这有点像关于控制委内瑞拉的评论，但实际上是让现有政府继续存在，而专注于美国非常关心的少数几个问题，比如石油，而不是民主或委内瑞拉的经济改革等。

A little bit like the the comment about running Venezuela, but basically doing it leaving the the current government in in place and really focusing on a few issues that The US cares a lot about, like oil, not so much on democracy or on economic reform in Venezuela, etcetera.

我认为我们可以对格陵兰采取同样的做法。

I I think one could take that same approach to Greenland.

我认为北极安全确实存在严重问题，我们应当在北极圈内更加积极地参与，尤其是在极地冰盖因气候变化而融化的情况下。

I think there are really serious issues of Arctic security, and we ought to be more engaged in the Arctic Circle, particularly with climate change as the polar ice caps are melting.

这将变成一条更具可行性的贸易航线。

That becomes a much more viable trade route.

我们应当在该地区更加积极地参与，因为丹麦人和格陵兰人非常乐意与我们合作。

And we should be more engaged up there for our own national security and the Danes and the Greenlanders are very happy to cooperate with us.

而且已经存在一个框架，我们之间甚至就如何进一步加强在该领域的合作达成了共识。

And there's even a framework, there's even agreement between us as to how could further build out our cooperation in that area.

但我认为总统是对的。

But I think the president is right.

我们可能确实需要更积极地与格陵兰和丹麦接触，确保我们在格陵兰具备应对北极安全需求的能力。

We probably do need to engage much more actively with Greenland and Denmark and ensure that we've got the capacity on Greenland to address our Arctic security needs.

基于特朗普总统及其高级顾问在进入第二任期前的言论，这些事有让你感到惊讶吗？

Has any of this surprised you based on on what president Trump and his top advisers talked about heading into their second term?

有。

Yes.

我感觉，很多人在第二任期开始前都预期总统会采取孤立主义立场。

I'd say there's a lot of expectation coming into the second term that the president was going to be an isolationist.

但他显然不是孤立主义者。

And he's clearly not an isolationist.

他从第一天起就深度参与国际事务。

He has been deeply engaged internationally from day one.

我们看到的是，无论是委内瑞拉的政权更迭，还是总统谈判达成的停火计划中即将在加沙展开的国家建设，都涉及美国的积极参与以及总统的亲自介入。

And what we've seen is whether it's regime change in Venezuela or the state building that that is slated to go on in in Gaza around the the ceasefire plan that the president negotiated, that this is very much involves active US participation and active personal participation by the president.

这是外交关系委员会主席迈克尔·弗罗曼。

That's Michael Froman, the president of the council on foreign relations.

非常感谢您与我们交谈。

Thank you so much for talking to us.

谢谢邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

本集由泰勒·巴特兰制作，音频工程由蒂芬妮·维拉·卡斯特罗负责。

This episode was produced by Tyler Bartlam with audio engineering from Tiffany Vera Castro.

本集由考特尼·多宁编辑。

It was edited by Courtney Dorning.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这是来自NPR的节目。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是斯科特·德特罗。

I'm Scott Dettrow.

你有没有想过离开美国，到一个新地方重新开始？

Have you ever thought about leaving The US, starting over somewhere new?

嗯，我有这个想法。

Well, I have.

根据一项民意调查，百分之四十的年轻女性表示，如果有机会，她们会永久移居其他国家。

And according to one poll, forty percent of young women said they'd move to another country permanently if they had the chance.

但为什么呢？

But why?

从哪里开始呢？

Where to start?

请在NPR应用程式或您收听播客的平台收听《It's Been a Minute》播客。

Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

天主教在叙事美学方面，无人能及。

The Catholic church in terms of storytelling aesthetics, they got everyone beat.

我是杰西·索恩。

I'm Jesse Thorne.

在《 Bullseye 》节目中，《利刃出鞘》系列电影的导演莱恩·约翰逊谈到了为什么最新一部电影设定在一座天主教大教堂，而不是南加州的大型教堂。

On Bullseye, Ryan Johnson, director of the Knives Out films, talks about why the latest one is set in a Catholic cathedral, not a SoCal mega church.

我成长过程中去的那些教堂，你知道，大多数都像陶艺店一样。

The churches I grew up in, you know, most of them look like pottery barns.

这就是《 Bullseye 》。

That's Bullseye.

你可以在 NPR 应用程序、maximumfund.org 或你收听播客的任何平台找到我们。

Find us in the NPR app, maximumfund.org, or wherever you get your podcasts.