宾夕法尼亚州民主党州长乔什·夏皮罗对抵抗特朗普的立场

去年春天，深夜时分，宾夕法尼亚州州长乔什·夏皮罗被敲门声和喊叫声惊醒。

Last spring, in the middle of the night, Pennsylvania governor Josh Shapiro woke up to knocking and yelling.

一名州警告诉他，州长官邸着火了。

The governor's residence was on fire, a state trooper told him.

据ABC新闻报道，夏皮罗一家必须迅速撤离房屋。

The Shapiro's had to get out of the house and fast, as ABC News reported.

警方称，这是一起针对宾夕法尼亚州州长乔什·夏皮罗住所的纵火案，当时他和家人正在那里庆祝逾越节的第一晚。

An arrest after what police called an act of arson at Pennsylvania governor Josh Shapiro's residence where he and his family had gathered to celebrate the first night of Passover.

无人受伤，但这次袭击让夏皮罗先是感到震惊，随后下定决心。

No one was harmed, but the attack left Shapiro feeling first shaken and then resolute.

我想让人们知道，我并不害怕。

I wanted people to know that I was not afraid.

我想让人们知道，没有任何事情能阻止我履行州长的职责，也没有任何事情能阻止我实践我的信仰。

I wanted people to know that nothing was going to deter me from doing my job as governor, and nothing would deter me from practicing my faith.

我之所以这样说很重要，因为政治暴力虽然针对特定个人，但其目的却是煽动更广泛社群的恐惧。

It was important for me to say that because political violence, while targeted at one particular individual, is designed to stoke fear in a broader community.

我还想让他们知道，尽管我们无法回到州长官邸举行那场逾越节家宴，但我们还是会举行第二场家宴。

And I wanted them to see that even though we wouldn't be able to return to the governor's residence for that seder, we were still gonna do a second seder.

夏皮罗是美国最著名的犹太裔官员之一。

Shapiro was one of the

美国最著名的犹太裔官员之一。

most prominent Jewish officeholders in The US.

你知道，我的信仰贯穿于我所做的一切。

You know, my faith is just interwoven in in everything I do.

在他的新回忆录《我们守护光明之处》中，夏皮罗探讨了他的信仰以及他的政治生涯——这段生涯让他从州议员一路成长为特朗普总统第一任期内的宾夕法尼亚州总检察长。

In his new memoir, Where We Keep the Light, Shapiro explores his faith as well as his career in politics, one that has taken him from state representative to Pennsylvania attorney general during president Trump's first term in the White House.

如果有人敢针对宾夕法尼亚人，他们就得先过我这一关，包括美国总统在内。

If someone's gonna mess with a Pennsylvanian, they're gonna have to go through me, and that includes the president of The United States.

如今作为州长，夏皮罗正面临来自特朗普政府的新挑战，比如可能的移民与海关执法局（ICE）部署。

Now as governor, Shapiro faces new challenges coming from the Trump administration, like potential ICE deployments.

当唐纳德·特朗普派遣国民警卫队或移民与海关执法局进入市长或州长不希望他们出现的社区时，他立即破坏了社区中本已存在的信任。

When Donald Trump deploys, whether it's the National Guard or ICE into a community where a mayor or governor does not want them there, he immediately erodes the trust that exists in a community.

而且，他们声称要让社区更安全，但实际上却在社区中制造了危险。

And instead of making communities safer, which is what they claim they wanna do, they actually create danger in a community.

还有今年的中期选举。

And this year's midterm elections.

我们知道，这位总统曾对我们的选举撒过谎。

We know that this president has lied about our elections.

我们知道，他们又会利用阴谋论和虚假诉讼来破坏中期选举。

We know that they're gonna try and undermine the midterms again with their conspiracy theories and with their bogus lawsuits.

我们再次做好了准备。

We will be prepared again.

我们已经看到他们试图破坏法治和选举公正。

We are already seeing them try to undermine the rule of law and undermine our elections.

想想这一点。

Consider this.

宾夕法尼亚州州长乔什·夏皮罗曾被列入2024年副总统的候选名单。

Pennsylvania governor Josh Shapiro was on the shortlist for vice president in 2024.

许多人预计他将在两年后自己竞选总统。

Many expect he will run for president himself in two years.

那么，他是如何应对特朗普政府和当前的政治局势的呢？

So how is he approaching the Trump administration and the current political moment?

来自NPR，我是斯科特·德特罗。

From NPR, I'm Scott Dettrow.

本期NPR政治播客。

This week on the NPR Politics Podcast.

几个月来，总统的移民策略已完全显露出来。

For months, the president's immigration strategy has been on full display.

现在，一些共和党人很难为它辩护。

Now some Republicans are having a hard time defending it.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这很好地反映了政治在这场风波中的走向。

I think that's a good, weather vain for where the politics are headed in all of this.

本周在NPR政治播客中，MAGA联盟出现裂痕。

Cracks in the MAGA coalition this week on the NPR politics podcast.

请在NPR应用程序或您收听播客的任何平台收听。

Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

我是玛丽·路易丝·凯利。

I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

世界新闻每小时都在变化。

World news is changing by the hour.

在《消息来源与方法》——NPR的国家安全播客中，我们放宽视角，解析不断变化的联盟、全球热点，以及伊朗、委内瑞拉、格陵兰等地真正发生的事情。

On sources and methods, NPR's national security podcast, we zoom out to explain shifting alliances, global flashpoints, and what's really happening in places like Iran, Venezuela, Greenland.

我们的实地记者串联线索，帮助您理解正在我们脚下悄然改变的世界秩序。

Our reporters on the ground connect the dots to help you understand a world order changing beneath our feet.

请在NPR应用程序或您收听播客的任何平台收听《消息来源与方法》。

Listen to sources and methods on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

这是来自NPR的《请考虑一下》。

It's consider this from NPR.

随着特朗普政府以前所未有的方式动用联邦政府的力量，通常是州长们——尤其是民主党州长——在试图抵制。

As the Trump administration applies the forces of the federal government in ways that have never been tried before, it is often state governors, specifically democratic governors, trying to push back.

宾夕法尼亚州州长乔什·夏皮罗花了很多时间思考如何应对移民与海关执法局的部署以及对选民登记信息的要求等事项。

Pennsylvania's governor, Josh Shapiro, has spent a lot of time thinking about how to respond to ICE deployments and demands for voter registration information among other things.

上周，我们在他位于宾夕法尼亚州阿宾顿的家乡见面时，曾就此进行过讨论。

We talked about it when we sat down together in his hometown of Abington, Pennsylvania last week.

另外需要说明的是，我们在亚历克斯·普雷蒂在街头被一名或多名联邦特工开枪打死之前就已进行了这次对话。

And a note, we talked before Alex Preti was shot and killed in the street when one or more federal agents opened fire.

我们来谈谈移民与海关执法局以及明尼苏达州目前正在发生的事情。

Let's talk about ICE and what's happening in Minnesota right now.

明尼苏达州只是过去一年左右在多个不同地点发生的系列事件中的最新一例。

Minnesota is just the latest example of a series of different locations over the last year or so.

你怎么看待这条界限？

How do you think about that line?

当我们在明尼阿波利斯看到移民与海关执法局及其他联邦特工的行动时，你认为这究竟是合法与否的问题，还是仅仅关乎你喜不喜欢？

Is this legal versus do I like this or not like this when it comes to what we're seeing play out with ICE and with other federal agents in Minneapolis?

嗯，

Well,

首先，如果你想拥有安全的社区，就必须在执法部门和他们服务保护的民众之间建立信任。

first off, if you wanna have safe communities, you've gotta build trust between law enforcement and the people that they serve and protect.

我作为州长承诺招聘2000名警察，并投入数亿美元用于暴力预防计划，以增进社区与执法部门之间的信任。

I made a commitment as governor to hire 2,000 police officers and invest hundreds of millions of dollars in violence prevention initiatives to create more trust between the community and law enforcement.

这已经取得了成效。

And it's working.

我们几乎已经招聘了全部2000人。

We've nearly hired all 2,000.

我想我们现在有1900人。

I think we're at 1,900.

我们会超过这个数字。

We'll surpass that number.

宾夕法尼亚州的暴力犯罪率下降了12%。

Violent crime is down 12% in Pennsylvania.

宾夕法尼亚州的致命枪支暴力事件下降了43%。

Fatal gun violence is down 43% in Pennsylvania.

我们正在做的事情是有效的。

What we're doing is working.

当唐纳德·特朗普派遣国民警卫队或移民与海关执法局进入市长或州长不希望他们出现的社区时，他立即破坏了社区中已有的信任。

When Donald Trump deploys, whether it's the National Guard or ICE, into a community where a mayor or governor does not want them there, he immediately erodes the trust that exists in a community.

他们非但没有让社区更安全——而这正是他们声称想要实现的目标——

And instead of making communities safer, which is what they claim they wanna do Mhmm.

反而在社区中制造了危险。

They actually create danger in a community.

你从雷妮·古德的死亡事件中就看到了这一点。

You saw that with the loss of life of Renee Good.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，在我看来，这关乎社区安全和公共安全，首要的就是这一点，而这位总统正在破坏这种信任。

And so to me, this is about community safety, public safety, first and foremost, and this president is eroding that trust.

从我作为州长的角度来看，我能做些什么？

From my vantage point as a governor, what can I do?

第一，如果他们违法部署军队，我会将他们告上法庭以阻止他们。

Number one, where they deploy troops against the law, I will take them to court to stop them.

我一直非常明确地表示，不会让总统将宾夕法尼亚州国民警卫队调离我的指挥，并将其用于其他目的。

I've been very vocal about not letting the president take the Pennsylvania National Guard away from my command and deploy it for other purposes.

到目前为止，我们在这方面取得了成功。

And so far, we've been successful at that.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

其次，我们拥有强大的执法力量，显然包括宾夕法尼亚州警察，还有我们密切协调的市警察部门。

Second, we have strong law enforcement, obviously, through Pennsylvania State Police, but also with our municipal police departments that we coordinate closely with.

我们不希望移民海关执法局的介入破坏这种信任。

We do not want ICE coming in eroding that trust.

我认为你在移民海关执法局看到的是被派往社区的人员侵犯个人宪法权利的现象。

I think what you're seeing with ICE are people who are being dispatched to a community violating the constitutional rights of individuals.

你看到的ICE行为，是那些破坏信任、让社区变得更不安全的人。

What you see with ICE are people who are harming that trust and making communities less safe.

夏皮罗也在思考特朗普政府与各州政府之间可能发生的另一场对峙——今年秋天的选举。

Shapiro is also thinking about another potential looming confrontation between the Trump administration and state governments, this fall's election.

你提到过你们进行过这类桌面推演对话。

You mentioned you mentioned having those kind of tabletop conversations.

这让我想起，你们的一位同行，格雷琴·惠特默州长，最近在接受我的同事西本斯基采访时说过的话。

That reminds me of something that one of your peers, governor Gretchen Whitmer told, one of my colleagues, Siebenski, in a recent interview.

她说，民主派官员们今年正在就中期选举进行讨论，基于我们过去所见、以及国土安全部和总统等人发表的言论，确实存在真正的担忧。

She said that government that that democratic officials are having conversations about this year's midterm elections and that there's real concern based on based on what we've seen in the past, what sort of statements we've seen from the Department of Homeland Security from the president and others.

人们对选举公正性、选举干预和恐吓行为深感忧虑。

There's real concerns about election integrity and election interference and intimidation.

你是否参与了这些讨论？

Are you part of those conversations?

关于这一点，你能告诉我们些什么？

What can you tell us about that?

我是。

I am.

当然，我不会透露我与其他州长的私人沟通，顺便说一句，我对惠特默州长极为尊重。

And and without obviously divulging my private communications with other governors and by the way, have immense respect for governor Whitmer.

我认为她是全美最出色的州长之一，也是我非常好的朋友。

Think she's one of the finest governors in the country and a really good friend.

我们知道，这位总统曾对我们的选举撒过谎。

We know that this president has lied about our elections.

是的。

Mhmm.

他把我告上了法庭。

He took me to court.

他和他的盟友一共起诉了我43次，试图推翻2020年的选举结果。

He and his allies took me to court 43 different times to try and overturn the twenty twenty election.

顺便说一句，我43胜0负，他们则是0胜43负。

By the way, I went 43 and o, they went o in '43.

我们举行了一次自由、公平、安全且可靠的选举。

We had a free and fair, safe, and secure election.

在宾夕法尼亚州，我们有过多次选举，有时民主党获胜，有时共和党获胜。

We've had elections here in Pennsylvania where sometimes Democrats win, sometimes Republicans win.

有时特朗普赢了，有时特朗普输了。

Sometimes Trump wins, and sometimes Trump loses.

我们知道，他们又会用阴谋论和虚假诉讼来破坏中期选举。

We know that they're gonna try and undermine the midterms again with their conspiracy theories and with their bogus lawsuits.

我们再次做好了准备。

We will be prepared again.

我们已经看到他们试图破坏法治和我们的选举。

We are already seeing them try to undermine the rule of law and undermine our elections.

让我解释一下。

Let me explain.

他们最近要求——我应该说最近要求——获取所有宾夕法尼亚州选民的私人信息，大约900万登记选民。

They asked recently demanded, I should say recently, all of the private voter information for Pennsylvanians, about 9,000,000 or so registered Pennsylvania voters.

顺便说一下，不仅仅是斯科特·德特罗以及你注册的政党、投票次数，这些信息都是公开的。

And by the way, not just Scott Dettrow and what party you're registered for and how many times you voted, that's publicly available.

但斯科特所有州政府有法律责任保护的私人信息，我们拒绝提供，因为我相信他们会用这些信息做不轨之事。

But all of Scott's private information that the state has a legal responsibility to protect, we refuse to turn that over because I believe they're gonna use it for nefarious purposes.

是的。

Mhmm.

我们还被司法部起诉，要求强制我们提供这些信息。

And we were sued by the Department of Justice to compel us to provide that information.

我们至今仍未提供。

We still haven't.

我们将继续在法庭上斗争，以保护宾夕法尼亚州公民的私人信息。

We're gonna continue to battle in court to protect the private information of the citizens of Pennsylvania.

这只是其中一个例子，说明我认为他们正在为加剧破坏中期选举做准备。

That's just one example of how I believe they're preparing to ramp up to trying to undermine the midterms.

我认为这些中期选举至关重要。

And I think these midterms are incredibly important.

而且它们对你来说很重要。

And and They're important to you.

你也在选票上。

You're on the ballot.

是的，我在选票上。

I am on the ballot.

我认为这比我的个人情况更为广泛。

I I think it is broader than me.

而且我看到了。

And I look.

我希望宾夕法尼亚州善良的人民能让我继续留在这个职位上，能为他们服务我感到非常荣幸。

I hope the good people of Pennsylvania return me to this position, which I just feel honored to serve them in.

但我认为现在有些人——我相信你也听说过——他们无法承受新闻带来的压力，我这么说完全是出于尊重，他们只想关掉新闻。

But I think right now you have people who and I'm sure you've heard this too, who can't I mean this with the most respect, who can't handle the news, who just wanna shut it off.

他们想蒙上被子，想要退缩。

And they wanna pull the covers over and they wanna retreat.

我想对他们说的是，现在是参与的时候，而不是退缩。

And what I would say to them is now is a time to engage, not to retreat.

我们参与的最好方式就是运用我们的力量。

And the best way we can engage is by using our power.

有时候，我们的力量体现在在线与人互动上。

Sometimes our power is engaging with people online.

但对我们所有人来说，我们拥有的力量就是投票权。

But for all of us, the power we have is the power to vote.

因此，无论你有幸生活在像宾夕法尼亚这样的摇摆州，还是身处我们州内这四个摇摆选区之一，甚至如果你住在那八十比二十的稳固选区，请踊跃出来投票，以创纪录的参与度表达我们的立场：我们不接受这个政府的混乱、残酷与腐败。

And so whether you're privileged to live in a swing state like Pennsylvania or be in one of these swing districts of which we've got four of them here in our Commonwealth, or even if you're in one of these eighty twenty districts, Show up and vote in record numbers, and that will send a message that we do not accept the chaos and the cruelty and the corruption of this administration.

你目前正在竞选州长。

You're running for governor right now.

你正在寻求连任。

You're running for reelection.

这是一本人们在考虑两年后竞选总统时会写的书。

This is the type of book that people write when they're thinking about running for president in two years.

你现在是如何看待2028年的？

How are you thinking about 2028 at this moment in time?

我写这本书是因为我认为我们的政治未能回应这个时代，也没有满足众多政治人物所代表的人民的需求。

I wrote this book because I think our politics are not meeting the moment or the needs of the people that a whole bunch of politicians represent.

我这话是什么意思？

What do I mean by that?

我走遍这个州，甚至越来越多地走遍全国，我看到的都是善良。

I travel across this Commonwealth and and more and more across the country, and I just see goodness.

是的。

Mhmm.

我看到人们每天都在自己的社区中带来光明，解决问题。

I see people who are bringing light in their communities every single day, solving problems.

我在书中提到了一些这样的人。

I write about a number of the people in this book.

我写了这本书，当然，这本书的写作过程被一场纵火袭击严重打断，那次事件不仅让我们看到了极致的黑暗，也看到了非凡的光明。

And I wrote this book, which, of course, was interrupted in many ways by the arson attack where we saw not only extreme darkness, but extraordinary light.

是的

Yeah.

我写这本书就是为了回应这一点。

And I wrote this book to speak to that.

我认为这一点非常重要，我希望人们能读到这本书，认识到我们的政治家需要更好地倾听人民的声音，向人们在日常社区中树立的伟大榜样学习。

And I think it is important, I hope people will read this, to to recognize that, our politicians need to do a better job of listening to the people and and learning from the great example that people set in their communities every day.

至于未来，你谈到民主党的核心与灵魂，它将会是什么样子。

As for the future, you talk about the the the sort of heart and soul of the Democratic Party and what's that gonna look like.

我想在塑造这一点上发出自己的声音。

I wanna have a voice in shaping that.

对。

Yeah.

我想

I wanna

作为宾夕法尼亚州州长，我想在塑造这一点上发出自己的声音。

have a voice in shaping that as governor of Pennsylvania.

我很感激能有机会和你这样的人讨论这个问题。

I'm grateful for the chance to talk to someone like you about that.

但我认为没有人能忽视眼前的短期问题。

But I don't think anyone can look past the immediate term here.

今年，我作为州长面临的所有挑战，以及宾夕法尼亚州和其他领导人在其管辖范围内所面对的挑战，最重要的是这些中期选举。

This year, all of the challenges I have as governor, just Pennsylvania and other leaders have in their jurisdictions, but most importantly, these midterm elections.

而这正是我将专注的全部。

And that's all I'm gonna focus on.

我认为每个人都应该专注于这一点。

That's all I think anyone should be focused on.

乔什·萨皮罗，宾夕法尼亚州州长，非常感谢您与我们交谈。

Josh Sapiro, governor of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, thank you so much for talking to us.

很高兴能与您交流。

Good to be with you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

本集由泰勒·巴特莱姆制作，音频工程由贝基·布朗负责。

This episode was produced by Tyler Bartlam with audio engineering from Becky Brown.

本集由莎拉·汉德尔编辑。

It was edited by Sarah Handel.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

让我们从美国国家公共电台的角度来思考这个问题。

Let's consider this from NPR.

我是斯科特·德特罗。

I'm Scott Dettrow.

《消息来源与方法》是美国国家公共电台的国家安全播客。

Sources and Methods is NPR's national security podcast.

当世界新闻每小时都在变化时，我们帮助您跳出细节，理解不断变化的联盟、全球热点，以及伊朗、委内瑞拉、格陵兰等地真正发生的事情。

When world news changes by the hour, we help you zoom out to understand shifting alliances, global flashpoints, and what is really happening in places like Iran, Venezuela, Greenland.

我们的现场记者将各条线索串联起来，解释正在我们脚下悄然改变的世界秩序。

Our reporters on the ground connect the dots to explain a world order changing beneath our feet.

在NPR应用或任何您收听播客的平台收听《Sources and Methods》。

Listen to sources and methods on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

在NPR的《Wildcard》播客中，奥普拉谈独处的艺术。

On NPR's wildcard podcast, Oprah on the art of being alone.

你擅长

Are you good at

独处吗？

being alone?

天啊。

Oh my god.

我可是这方面的高手。

I'm a master at it.

给我讲讲更多。

Tell me more.

我非常珍惜独处的时光。

I cherish it.

我沉醉其中。

I revel in it.

我迫不及待地想独处。

I can't wait to be alone.

请在NPR应用或YouTube上的NPR Wildcard频道观看或收听这段对话。

Watch or listen to that wildcard conversation on the NPR app or on YouTube at NPR Wildcard.

想在没有广告中断的情况下收听这个播客吗？

Wanna hear this podcast without sponsor breaks?

亚马逊Prime会员可以通过亚马逊音乐免费收听《Consider This》无广告版，或者您也可以支持NPR的重要新闻报道，通过访问+.npr.org获取《Consider This》Plus版。

Amazon Prime members can listen to consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music, or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this plus at +.npr.org.

网址是+.npr.org。

That's +.npr.org.