截至目前，特朗普总统在肯尼迪中心的计划尚不明确。

去年我做了一次采访，一直让我记忆深刻。

There's an interview I did last year that stuck in my mind.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

那是我和法国钢琴家让-伊夫·蒂博戴的对话，他来到NPR的小型演奏台演出，场地比他平时习惯的要小得多。

It was with French pianist Jean Yves Thibaudet, who had stopped by NPR's tiny desk for performance at a much smaller venue than he was used to.

你是在肯尼迪中心演出间隙举办这场音乐会的。

You're you're doing this concert in between shows at the Kennedy Center.

我跟他聊了聊他的最新专辑。

I talked to him about his newest album.

他演奏了阿拉姆·哈恰图良的一首钢琴协奏曲，这位多产的亚美尼亚作曲家在苏联统治时期依然创作并演奏音乐。

He plays a piano concerto by Aram, a prolific Armenian composer who wrote and played music while under Soviet rule.

那是一个对艺术家来说充满危险的年代和地方。

It was a time and a place that could be treacherous for artists.

作品的命运随着政权的好恶而起落。

Work fell in and out of favor depending on the whims of the regime.

我认为，除非你当时生活在那个时代，否则我们根本无法理解那些作曲家所经历的苦难。

I think unless you were living there in those era, we just cannot understand what those composers had to go through.

有时他们必须按照特定的风格创作，否则就会被黑名单除名。

Sometimes they had to write things in a certain genre, otherwise, they would be blacklisted.

我问蒂博代，像卡恰图良这样在专制政府下工作的作曲家，能否告诉我们音乐与政治之间的关系。

I asked Thibodet whether composers like Katchtorian, working under an authoritarian government, could tell us anything about the relationship between music and politics.

音乐和政治永远不应该混在一起。

Music and politics should never get together.

我认为音乐是少数几样东西之一——也许艺术整体上都应该是，绝对不应涉及政治。

I think music is one of the few things that is and art maybe in general, that should absolutely not touch politics.

我的意思是，音乐是唯一具有国际性的艺术形式。

I mean, music is the only thing that is international.

音乐没有语言障碍。

There's no language barrier.

它应该只为人类带来和平、幸福与美。

It should just bring peace, should just bring happiness and and beauty to humankind.

就在那次采访数小时后，特朗普总统宣布他将接管肯尼迪中心——华盛顿的国家表演艺术场所。

Hours after that interview, president Trump announced that he was taking control of the Kennedy Center, the national venue for performing arts in Washington.

他撤换了董事会成员，新董事会任命他为主席。

He purged the board, and the new board made him chairman.

事实上，政治正直冲着蒂博代正在演出的音乐厅而来。

Politics was, in fact, running headlong into art at the very concert hall where Thibodet was performing.

我们终止了这种觉醒式政治节目，正在将肯尼迪中心恢复为全国乃至全球首屈一指的表演艺术场所。

We ended the woke political programming, and we're restoring the Kennedy Center as the premier venue for performing arts anywhere in the country, anywhere in the world.

在特朗普的变革之后，众多艺术家开始取消原定在肯尼迪中心的演出，尤其是在特朗普将自己的名字加到建筑外立面之后。

In the wake of Trump's changes, a host of artists began to cancel scheduled Kennedy Center performances, especially after Trump added his name to the facade.

政府表示，是艺术家们在拒绝演出时玩弄政治。

The administration says it is the artists who are playing politics when they refuse to perform.

特朗普总统还说过这样的话。

President Trump also said this.

他们会说特朗普让这件事政治化了，但我觉得如果我们把它变成我们自己的那种政治，情况会好转。

They'll say Trump made it political, but I think if we make it our kind of political, we'll go up.

想想这个。

Consider this.

特朗普现在表示，他将关闭肯尼迪中心，将其重建为一个‘崭新而壮观的娱乐综合体’。

Trump now says he is shutting down the Kennedy Center to rebuild it as a, quote, new and spectacular entertainment complex.

当一位总统围绕自己对伟大美国艺术的愿景，并以自己为中心来重塑一个国家文化机构时，这意味著什么？

What does it mean when a president remakes a national cultural institution around his own vision of great American art and around himself.

来自NPR，我是斯科特·德特罗。

From NPR, I'm Scott Dettrow.

这是来自NPR的报道。

It's considered this from NPR.

特朗普总统希望关闭肯尼迪中心两年。

President Trump wants to close the Kennedy Center for two years.

他说，这样做的原因是为了进行一次大规模翻新。

The reason, he says, has to do with a massive renovation.

我不是把它拆掉。

I'm not ripping it down.

我会 reuse 这些钢材。

I'll be using the steel.

所以我们保留了结构。

So we're using the structure.

我们使用了一些大理石，也有一些大理石会被拆除。

We're using some of the marble, and some of the marble comes down.

但重新开放时，它将焕然一新，非常漂亮。

But when it's open, it'll be brand new and really beautiful.

它将达到最高水准。

It'll be at the highest level.

总统改造完成后，肯尼迪中心在物理和艺术上会是什么样子？

So what will the Kennedy Center look like physically and artistically after the president is finished with it?

《大西洋》杂志的大卫·格雷厄姆一直在思考这个问题，我们邀请他来谈谈。

David Graham of The Atlantic has been thinking about this, and we invited him on to talk about it.

当得知肯尼迪中心可能关闭长达两年时，你的第一反应是什么？

What was your first reaction to this latest twist that the Kennedy Center may close for up to two years?

这既令人惊讶，又有点不出所料。

It was both surprising and little unsurprising.

我们已经看到特朗普多次试图改变肯尼迪中心并掌控它。

We've seen so many moves from Trump sort of to change the Kennedy Center and to take control of it.

现在对任何事情都很难感到惊讶了，但关闭两年似乎确实非常剧烈。

It's hard to be surprised by anything now, but yet to close for two years seems really dramatic.

关于此事，几乎没有提前预警，他也未给出太多解释。

There was not a lot of warning about this, and he didn't offer a great deal of explanation.

是的。

Yeah.

让我们再听一听特朗普对这一公告原因的表述。

Let's just listen to a little bit more of what Trump is saying about the reasons for this announcement.

这是他昨天对记者的讲话。

This is him speaking to reporters yesterday.

它已经破败不堪了。

It's rundown.

它年久失修。

It's dilapidated.

它有点危险。

It's sort of dangerous.

东西会从天花板上掉下来。

People things fall out, fall out of ceilings.

你见过的。

You've seen it.

我的意思是，近年来我经常在那里做节目。

I mean, I've been doing a lot of shows there in recent years.

我不能说我是这样看待这个场地的。

I can't say that's how I see the venue.

对你来说，情况是这样的吗？

Is that true in any way to you?

你知道，肯尼迪中心在建筑上并不适合所有人，但我从未见过它如此破败。

You know, the the architecturally, the Kennedy Center is not for everyone, but I have never known it to be that dilapidated.

就在六年前，该中心还进行了一次大规模扩建。

And just six years ago, the center had a a major expansion.

特朗普没有提供任何相关文件，他亲自挑选的董事会也没有给我们任何我们可以考虑和采纳的报告。

Trump And hasn't provided any documentation for this, and and his handpicked board hasn't given us any report on this that we could consider and and take up.

他是否有权在没有外部董事会或国会批准的情况下直接拆毁这个机构？

Does he have the power to just knock down this institution without an okay from an outside board or congress?

他没有权力把它拆掉。

He doesn't have the power to knock it down.

他可能想做的其他事情很难说，因为他们根本没有告诉我们他究竟想做什么，只是说要把它变得最美、最好。

What else he might wanna do is a little bit hard to say because they haven't, you know, they haven't told us what exactly he wants to do except to make it the most beautiful and the best.

我认为这里并没有什么明确的计划，而这正是我们所看到的。

I don't think there's a lot of plan here, and I think that's what we're seeing.

过去几个月，我们一直听他谈论他将要做什么。

We have heard him talk about what what he will do for the last few months.

而且，就在今年秋天，他还说我们会进行翻新，但会全程保持开放。

And and, you know, as recently as this fall, he was saying, we're gonna have a renovation, but we're gonna be open the full time.

不会有任何干扰。

There will be no disruption.

然后他把自己的名字挂上了，但我认为他意识到这些事情根本行不通，而且负责此事的人缺乏管理艺术中心的经验，这对他毫无帮助。

Then he put his name on it, but I think he's seeing these things just aren't working, and he has people in charge of it who don't have experience administering an arts center, which doesn't help him.

据你所知，你认为他的真实动机是什么？

As best as you can tell, what do you think his real motivations are here?

是因为大家都取消了以我命名的场地，所以我要把我的球拿走回家吗？

Is this I'm taking my ball and going home because everybody is canceling on the venue every named after myself.

我的意思是，你认为到底发生了什么？

Like, what what do you think is going on?

我认为对他来说，管理肯尼迪中心已经变得非常困难。

I think it's become very hard for him to run the Kennedy Center.

他原本有个愿景，认为如果按照他的民粹主义理念重塑中心，不再邀请他所说的那些‘觉醒’表演者，门票销量就会上升。

And he had this vision that if he kind of remade it in his populist vision and stopped booking the woke performers who he said that they had had, then ticket sales would go up.

但实际情况是他正在失去员工。

And instead what's happened is he's losing staff.

那里的大部分高层官员都已经离开了。

Most of the top officials there have left.

他正在失去表演者。

He's losing performers.

就在过去几周，我们看到贝拉·弗莱克、勒内·弗莱明和菲利普·格拉斯相继退出了演出，而且他的观众也在流失。

We've seen just in the last few weeks, Bela Fleck and Renee Fleming and Philip Glass pulling out of things, and he's losing audiences.

《华盛顿邮报》报道了门票销售的大幅下滑。

The Washington Post reports huge declines in ticket sales.

我觉得这个愿景根本行不通，而他也没有其他太多办法了。

I think just the vision hasn't worked, and he doesn't have a whole lot else up his sleeve.

所以关闭中心是一种掩盖问题的方式。

So closing is a way to kind of cover that up.

几周前，我开车经过宾夕法尼亚大道，接着沿着国家广场行驶，路过了一家‘特朗普和平研究所’。

A few weeks ago, I was driving down Pennsylvania Avenue, and then I was driving down along the mall, and I passed the Trump Institute for Peace.

我经过了特朗普肯尼迪中心。

I passed the Trump Kennedy Center.

我经过了林肯纪念堂，而特朗普现在想在河对岸直接面对林肯纪念堂的地方建造一座巨大的凯旋门。

I passed the Lincoln Memorial where Trump now wants to build this big triumphal arch across the river directly facing it.

当一位在任领导人对文化历史中心实施这种国家控制，并将自己置于中心位置时，你认为会发生什么？

What do you think happens when a sitting leader imposes this kind of state control on cultural historical centers and puts himself at the center of it?

我还要补充一点，在史密森尼学会，我们看到有人声称展览文字正在被修改，以弱化特朗普的弹劾事件，甚至删除他认为对美国不利的历史内容。

I would add to that list in the Smithsonian where we see claims that, you know, exhibit text is being rewritten to deemphasize Trump's impeachments, for example, and to take out parts of history that he thinks are negative for The US.

你知道，这些正是我们在其他国家个人专制政权中看到的现象——国家领导人拥有绝对权力。

You know, these are the sorts of things that we see in personalist authoritarian regimes in other countries where the head of state is singular.

他们掌握着全部权力。

They have all the power.

存在一点个人崇拜的色彩，而他似乎有意复制这种模式。

There's a little bit of cult of personality, and he seems interested in replicating that.

当我们看到特朗普过去与独裁者交谈时，他常常钦佩他们及其国家的某些方面，而现在，他似乎正将这种做法引入美国。

When we've seen Trump, you know, talking to dictators in the past, he's often admired things about them and about their countries, and now he seems to be importing that kind of practice to The US as well.

让我们回到肯尼迪中心本身。

Let's bring it back to the Kennedy Center itself.

这个机构成立于1971年。

This is an institution that opened in 1971.

我知道很多人会说华盛顿并不是全国的文化中心，但在华盛顿，它确实意义重大，它是国家表演艺术中心。

I mean, I know a lot of people will say that Washington is not the cultural center of the country, but but in Washington, it is a big deal, and it is the National Performing Arts Center.

如果这个机构关闭两年或更长时间，我们会失去什么？

What do you think is lost if this institution is closed for two years of or more?

你可以看看菲利普·格拉斯撤回交响乐的例子。

You can just look at the the example of Philip Glass pulling the symphony out.

菲利普·格拉斯是这个国家最顶尖的作曲家之一。

Philip Glass is one of the premier composers in this country.

这是一部新作品，对白宫来说，这直接是一种损失。

This is a new work, and and that's a loss directly there for the White House.

你知道，住在华盛顿地区的人们都明白，肯尼迪中心对于各种表演艺术——无论是歌剧、交响乐、民谣、爵士乐，还是各种全球音乐——都多么重要。

You know, people who live around the Washington area understand how much the Kennedy Center is an important site for performing arts of all varieties, whether it's opera or symphony or folk or jazz or, you know, various global music.

这确实让首都留下了一个巨大的空缺。

It really does leave a hole in in the capital.

如果华盛顿在许多方面都是如此璀璨的明珠，拥有众多博物馆和艺术资源，却让这样一个顶尖的表演艺术中心停摆两年，那将是一个巨大的损失。

And if Washington is is such a jewel in many ways, museums and in arts, and to not have a premier performing arts center for two years, it's a big loss.

大卫·格雷厄姆，《大西洋》杂志的撰稿人。

David Graham, staff writer at the Atlantic.

非常感谢。

Thanks so much.

谢谢。

Thank you.

本集由亨利·拉森和康纳·多诺万制作，音频工程由泰德·尼贝负责。

This episode was produced by Henry Larson and Connor Donovan with audio engineering by Ted Niebe.

由莎拉·汉德尔剪辑。

It was edited by Sarah Handel.

执行制片人是萨米·颜根。

Executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这是NPR的《就此而言》。

It's Consider This from NPR.

我是斯科特·德特罗。

I'm Scott Dettrow.