罗伯·莱纳热爱美国。他认为它可以变得更好。

美国人最初通过诺曼·李尔的开创性情景喜剧《全家福》认识了罗布·莱纳。

America first got to know Rob Reiner in Norman Lear's transformative sitcom, All in the Family.

妈妈，爸爸，这是迈克尔·斯蒂维克。

Mom, daddy, this is Michael Stivick.

迈克尔，这是我的母亲，邦克夫人。

Michael, this is my mother, missus Bunker.

嗨。

Hi.

你好吗？

How are you?

幸会。

How do you do?

还有我的父亲，邦克先生。

And my father, mister Bunker.

那是1971年。

It was 1971.

越南战争正在激烈进行。

The Vietnam War was raging.

民权运动仍居于核心地位，而迈克尔·斯蒂维克，也就是人们熟知的“梅特海德”，是个留着长发、穿着迷彩衬衫的左派人士。

The civil rights movement was still front and center, and Michael Stivick, better known as Meathead, was the long haired tie dye shirt wearing lefty.

这使他成为卡罗尔·奥康纳饰演的阿奇的完美对立面——阿奇是来自皇后区的白人工人阶级偏执者，对时代变迁毫无兴趣。

It made him the perfect foil to Carol O'Connor's Archie, a white working class bigot from Queens who had no interest in changing with the times.

报纸上有什么有趣的消息吗？

Anything interesting in the paper?

有。

Yeah.

越南日和平示威中有200人被捕。

200 arrested in Vietnam Day peace demonstration.

200人。

200.

他们本该把一大批人关进监狱。

They should have thrown a whole bunch of them in the can.

看看那张照片。

Look at that picture there.

他们正在向执法人员扔各种杂物和杂物，亵渎美国国旗。

Here they are, throwing all kinds of junk and debriefs at officers of the law, desecrating on the American flag.

那些和平联盟到底是什么玩意儿？

The hell are them peace leagues one anyhow?

当阿奇告诉他的女婿麦提德，如果抗议者不喜欢这场战争，他们就滚蛋时，雷纳·斯蒂维克试图向阿奇灌输他认为美国处处不足的各种观点。

And when Archie tells his son-in-law, Meathead, that if the protesters don't like the war, they can amscray, Reiner Stivic tries to school Archie about all the ways he thinks America is falling short.

那么，我们的离开能解决什么问题呢？

Well, what would our leaving solve?

我的意思是，无论有没有抗议者，这个国家仍然会有同样的问题。

I mean, with or without protesters, this country would still have the same problems.

什么问题？

What problems?

嗯，是这场战争，

Well, it's the war,

种族问题、经济问题、污染问题。

the racial problem, the economic problem, the pollution problem.

得了吧。

Come on.

如果你非要挑刺的话。

If you wanna nitpick.

多年来，莱纳的生活逐渐模仿了艺术。

Over the years, Reiner's life came to imitate art.

和他扮演的角色一样，他不断指出他认为美国可以改进的方方面面，并且真正地身体力行。

Like his alter ego, he spoke out about all the ways that he thought America could be better, and he put his money where his mouth was, quite literally.

在九十年代末，他认为需要做更多工作来支持儿童早期发展，于是推动了加州的一项倡议，对烟草征税，并将所得用于支持儿童早期教育。

In the late nineties, thinking that more needed to be done to support early childhood development, Reiner pushed an initiative in California to tax tobacco and use the proceeds to support early childhood education.

他向采访者查理·罗斯解释了这一努力。

He explained the effort to interviewer Charlie Rose.

当我想到这个点子时，我就知道这是个可行的方向。

When I hit on this, I knew this was a way to go.

这是应对犯罪、青少年怀孕、药物滥用、儿童虐待、福利依赖以及几乎所有其他方面过快发展的有效途径。

This was an answer to really having an impact on crime, teen pregnancy, drug abuse, child abuse, welfare dependency, and virtually every other side too fast for me.

第一个五年计划至今仍然存在，但这只是里纳投入资金和明星影响力支持的众多事业之一。

The first five program is still around today, but that's just one of the causes that Reiner put his money and his stardom behind.

他多年来一直努力推动同性婚姻合法化。

He worked for years to try and legalize gay marriage.

2016年，当北卡罗来纳州州长签署了一项禁止跨性别者使用与其性别认同相符的洗手间的法案时，里纳在MSNBC上抗议这一举措。

And when in 2016, North Carolina's governor signed a bill preventing transgender people from using bathrooms that match their gender identities, Reiner protested that move on MSNBC.

这是民权拼图中最后一块正在被放上的部分。

It's the last, piece of the civil rights puzzle that's being put into place.

LGBT群体是唯一一个在法律面前未被平等对待的群体。

It's the the the, LGBT community is the only community that is not looked at equally under the law.

现在，阿奇·潘克可能会把这一切都称为吹毛求疵。

Now Archie Punker might have called all of this nitpicking.

但本周早些时候，里纳的朋友、演员兼坚定的保守派詹姆斯·伍兹在接受福克斯新闻采访时表达了不同的看法。

But speaking to Fox News earlier this week, Reiner's friend, the actor, and diehard conservative James Woods had a different view.

当人们问我：‘你觉得他的政治观点怎么样？’

When people would say to me, well, what do you think of his politics?

我会说，我认为罗布·雷纳是个伟大的爱国者。

I would say, I think Rob Reiner is a great patriot.

我是否同意他关于如何践行这种爱国精神、来庆祝我们共同热爱的美国的某些或许多观点？

Do I agree with some of or many of his ideas on how that patriotism should be enacted to celebrate the America that we both love?

不，我不同意。

No.

但他也不认同我的观点，但他同样尊重我的爱国情怀。

But he doesn't agree with me either, but he also respects my patriotism.

请想一想。

Consider this.

罗布·雷纳一生都在努力纠正他所看到的美国的不足之处。

Rob Reiner spent his life trying to fix what he saw as America's shortcomings.

在他去世前不久的一次采访中，他解释了自己为何对美国能够变得更好充满乐观。

In an interview shortly before his death, he explained why he was optimistic that America could be better.

来自NPR，我是斯科特·德特雷尔。

From NPR, I'm Scott Detrelle.

在《TED广播秀》中，克里斯塔·蒂珀特二十多年来一直帮助听众应对变化。

On the TED Radio Hour, for over two decades, Krista Tippett has been helping her listeners get through change.

但当她自己经历人生危机时，一件意想不到的事情发生了。

But she was going through her own life crisis when something unexpected happened.

我64岁时坠入爱河，这是最棒的事。

I fell in love at 64, and it's the greatest thing ever.

找到你的幸福。

Finding your bliss.

请在NPR应用或您收听播客的平台收听《TED广播秀》。

Listen to the TED Radio Hour on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

在《Wait Wait Don't Tell Me》节目中，著名演员们回忆起他们默默无闻的日子，比如佩德罗·帕斯卡回忆当服务员时的压力。

On Wait Wait Don't Tell Me, famous actors remember their days of obscurity, like when Pedro Pascal remembered the stress of being a waiter.

满足每个人需求的后勤工作。

The logistical labor of meeting everyone's needs in the right manner.

就是，你知道的，第一幕，水。

The, you know, the act one, the water.

第二幕，喝的东西。

Act two, the drink.

在NPR应用或你收听播客的任何平台收听《Wait Wait》。

Listen to Wait Wait in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcast.

每周五在《All Songs Considered》爱上新音乐。

Fall in love with new music every Friday at All Songs Considered.

这是NPR的音乐推荐播客。

That's NPR's music recommendation podcast.

每周五，我们整个节目都在分享本周最棒的新发行作品。

Fridays are where we spend our whole show sharing all the greatest new releases of the week.

让寻找新音乐重新成为你生活的一部分。

Make the hunt for new music a part of your life again.

每周五从《All Songs Considered》获取新音乐，可在你收听播客的任何平台收听。

Tap into new music Friday from All Songs Considered, available wherever you get your podcasts.

这是来自NPR的《就此而言》。

It's Consider This from NPR.

过去一周，人们纷纷悼念罗布·莱纳。

It's been a week of tributes to Rob Reiner.

这位演员兼导演于周日被发现与妻子米歇尔·辛格·莱纳一同去世。

The actor and director was found dead on Sunday along with his wife, Michelle Singer Reiner.

他们的儿子已被指控谋杀二人。

Their son has been charged with their murders.

这些悼念活动主要聚焦于莱纳的表演、他执导的电影，以及他的政治 activism。

And those tributes, they have centered on Reiner's acting, the movies he's directed, but also on his political activism.

在他去世前不久，他曾与记者托德·珀德姆讨论过这一话题。

It's something he talked to the journalist Todd Purdum about shortly before he died.

珀德姆本周在《纽约时报》上撰文回顾了这次访谈，并现在加入我们的节目。

Purdum wrote about that interview in the New York Times this week and joins us now.

感谢您做客《所有事物都被考虑》。

Thanks for being on All Things Considered.

谢谢你邀请我，斯科特。

Thanks for asking me, Scott.

你是什么时候和罗布·雷纳进行这次对话的？

When did you have this conversation with Rob Reiner?

实际上，是在11月4日选举日，他在布伦特伍德的家中，他在这里生活了很多年，而他的导师诺曼·勒尔也曾住在这里。

Actually, on November 4, election day in his home in Brentwood, where he had lived for many years and where before him, his mentor Norman Lear had lived.

我想，对于某些年纪较大的人来说，当我让你解释诺曼·勒尔时，他们可能会感到不自在，但已经过去很久了。

I think people over a certain age might squirm when I ask you to contextualize Norman Lear, but it's been a while.

对于那些不太熟悉他作为传奇电视制作人角色的人，提醒我们一下他是谁，以及他和雷纳的关系。

For those who aren't as deeply familiar with just his role as a legendary TV producer, remind us who he was and and and his relationship with Reiner.

是的。

Yes.

诺曼·勒尔拥有非凡的美国人生。

Norman Lear had an extraordinary American life.

他活到了101岁。

He lived to be a 101 years old.

但在20世纪70年代，他是那个时代主导性电视剧的开创者。

But in the nineteen seventies, he was the progenitor of the dominant television series of that decade.

他曾一度拥有同时播出的十部最受欢迎剧集中的五部，而突破性的剧集是《全家福》，讲述了一户住在皇后区的家庭，父亲是一位有偏见的白人装卸工，经常与他的女婿——一位支持麦戈文的自由派人士迈克尔·斯蒂维克——发生争执。

He had, at one point, five of the top 10 shows on the air, and the breakthrough show was all in the family, the story of a family in Queens with a bigoted white loading dock worker father who sparred all the time with his son-in-law, a liberal pro McGovern voter named Michael Stivick.

而当时23岁的罗布·莱纳，正是凭借这部剧一举成名。

And at the age of 23, that was Rob Reiner's breakthrough role.

这部剧集反映了全美无数家庭正在经历的真实对话与争论。

And this is a show that tapped into real life conversations and arguments that so many families across the country were having were playing out on that TV show.

是的。

Yes.

它为情景喜剧注入了新的时代内涵。

And it brought the situation comedy of age.

它探讨的是当时国家生活中重要而紧迫的问题，而不是烤糊的蛋糕、做错的作业或爸爸的车被撞了这类琐事。

It it it dealt with issues that were of moment and current import in national life, not with burned cakes and, messed up homework and who dead at dad's car.

它真正开启了成人情景喜剧的先河。

It was really the, beginning of adult sitcom entertainment.

罗布·莱纳参与该剧，有时还担任编剧，这对剧集的氛围至关重要。

And, Rob Reiner's participation in the show and his he also participated at times as a writer, was a crucial part of the of the dynamic.

请告诉我一些莱尔在政治方面参与的项目。

Tell me a little bit about the the projects that Lear was involved in on the political side.

在二十世纪七十年代，他凭借《全家福》《莫德》《杰斐逊一家》《好时光》《一天一部》等开创性的情景喜剧赚取了巨额财富，但他对七十年代末八十年代初宗教右翼的崛起深感忧虑，于是创立了公共利益组织‘美国人之道’，旨在为进步派和自由派夺回‘爱国主义’与国旗的象征意义。

Well, so after he made his fortune in the nineteen seventies with shows like not only All in the Family, but Maude, The Jeffersons, Good Times, One Day at a Time, all these path breaking sitcoms, He was very alarmed by the rise of the religious right at the end of the nineteen seventies and the beginning of the nineteen eighties, and he founded a public interest organization called People for the American Way to sort of take back patriotism and the flag for progressives and liberals.

最终，这个组织在阻止罗伯特·博克出任最高法院大法官的提名中发挥了关键作用。

And, ultimately, that organization was instrumental in defeating the nomination of Robert Bork to the Supreme Court.

诺曼，直到生命的尽头，他始终保持着公民 activism，并成为罗布的榜样。

And, Norman, you know, to the end of his life, kept up civic activism as became a model for Rob.

他告诉你，他从莱尔身上学到了什么？

What did he tell you that he learned from Lear?

他学到，娱乐界人士也可以在公共生活中发挥作用，尤其是只要他做好充分准备，并且他决心始终如此。

He learned that an entertainment person could have a role in public life, especially if he did his homework, and he was determined always to do that.

他不想被右翼嘲笑，认为自己对关心的问题一知半解、缺乏调研。

He didn't wanna be mocked by the right with, half baked views and hadn't done his homework on the issues that he cared about.

我认为这一点触动了很多人。

I think that's something that that that struck a lot of people.

当你达到一定成功水平时，很容易只是支个票，或者在麦克风前、社交媒体上发几条声明。

It's very easy when you're at a certain level of success to write a check and maybe, make a statement or two into a microphone or on social media.

罗布·莱纳远远超越了这些。

Rob Reiner went so far beyond that.

他深度参与了他想推动的各种政治倡议。

He got deeply involved in the various political initiatives that he wanted to work on.

是的。

Yes.

他和诺曼一样写了大量支票，但他还深入参与了具体的实际工作。

He wrote plenty of checks as Norman also did, but he got very involved in the brass tacks fieldwork.

1998年，他是加州一项 ballot initiative 的核心人物，该倡议对烟草行业征税，以资助幼儿教育项目。

In 1998, he was the leading light of a California ballot initiative that would tax the tobacco industry to finance early childhood education programs.

该措施通过后，他成为全州首个专注于儿童生命最初五年教育项目的负责人。

And when the measure passed, he then became the first head of the statewide program that was focusing on the first five years of life and education for children.

几年后，当加州选民通过了一项禁止同性婚姻的公投法案时，罗布认为这是民权的最后一道前线。

Few years later, when California voters passed a ballot measure that outlawed gay marriage, Rob felt that that was the last frontier of civil rights.

他参与了美国平等权利基金会的创立，该基金会资助了最终促使最高法院认可同性婚姻的诉讼案。

He was involved in the founding of the American Foundation for Equal Rights, which financed the court case that ultimately led to the Supreme Court's embrace of gay marriage.

我肯定过去一周你一直在思考这个问题。

I'm sure you've been thinking about this over the past week.

你有没有想过，他最具持久影响力的具体领域是哪一个或哪两个？

Do you have a thought of of what one particular area or two really kind of would be his most lasting area of influence?

我认为你必须说，同性婚姻的胜利是最重要的成就，尽管最高法院内部现在有一些力量暗示这一判决应该被重新审视。

Well, I think you really have to say the successful fight for gay marriage, although there are some forces on the Supreme Court itself that have now suggested that decision should be revisited.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但你必须说，这是美国历史上一项非凡的成就。

But you you have to say that that is a remarkable achievement in American history.

当他发起这场斗争时，他打的第一个电话就是给诺曼·勒尔，诺曼立即捐出了10万美元作为启动资金来支持这场斗争。

And, when he got that battle going, the one of the first calls he made was to Norman Lear who kicked in the of $100,000 of seed money to help support the fight.

上个月你和他交谈时，你们聊了多少关于当前国家氛围的话题？

When you talked to him last month, how much did you talk about the current mood of the country?

实际上，聊了不少，斯科特。

Quite a bit, actually, Scott.

他对这个问题进行了反思。

He he was reflective about it.

让我印象深刻并铭记于心的是，以事后的视角来看，他依然保持着乐观。

And one of the things that struck me and that I'll take away from the conversation, in the poignancy of hindsight, is how optimistic he remains.

他承认，我们似乎正处在一个黑暗且倒退的时代，但正如马丁·路德·金所说，在美国历史的长河中，道德的弧线终将趋向正义。

He acknowledged that we're seemingly in a dark and backward moving time, but that in the arc of American history, as Martin Luther King said, you know, the moral arc of the universe does eventually bend toward justice.

他对于美国的最终未来，以及他所说的长达二百五十年的民主共和国实验，显得非常充满希望。

And he seemed very hopeful about the ultimate future of The United States and of our experiment with, you know, two hundred fifty years of a democratic republic, as he put it.

你对此怎么看？

What did you make of that?

我的意思是，如果你持有罗布·莱纳那样的世界观，2025年并不是一个充满乐观的年份。

I mean, if you are somebody who had Rob Reiner's worldview, 2025 was not really a year for optimism.

不。

No.

我认为他承认了这一点。

And I think he acknowledged that.

但我觉得，就像之前的诺曼一样，他坚信必须在能找到光明的地方去寻找光明。

But I think, like Norman before him, he believed very strongly that you had to look to the light where you could find it.

你必须寻找希望的微光，以及那些可能性的微光。

You had to look for the glimmers of hope and for the, you know, glimmers of, possibility.

他似乎比以往任何时候都更坚定地继续这场斗争。

And he seemed more determined than ever to keep up that fight.

他并没有表现出退缩的迹象。

He was not sounding retreat.

是的。

Yeah.

自从周日以来，你有没有再想起那次对话中的其他内容？

Is there anything else from that conversation that you've been thinking about since Sunday?

他有多温暖，他曾经多么温暖，作为一个人，他有多么包容。

Well, just how warm he is, how warm he was, how how embracing he was as a personality.

你知道，近年来他瘦了不少，但他是个高大魁梧的人。

You know, he he seemed to have lost a a good deal of weight in recent years, but he was a great big bear of a man.

他还问了我很多关于我孩子的事，他们都在做什么。

And, you know, he asked me a lot about my children, what they were doing.

他整个人都充满了温暖。

He's he's just suffused with a great deal of warmth.

我也常常想起，坐在那间温暖的房子里，正如所说，那房子以前是诺曼·勒尔的，上世纪三十年代曾属于亨利·方达，而亨利·方达的玫瑰园至今仍在。

And it was also, I will think very much, I'm kind of haunted by sitting in that warm house, which had, as said, belonged to Norman Lear before that and and had at one point belonged to Henry Fonda in the nineteen thirties, and Henry Fonda's rose garden is still there.

所以我想起上周末在那里发生的悲剧，以及那所房子如何被摧毁，不再是他家人的避风港。

So I I think of the, you know, the tragedy that unfolded there last weekend and and the way that that that house has, you know, been exploded as a as a refuge for his family.

是的。

Yeah.

关于如何定义罗布·莱纳的艺术遗产，已经有很多讨论了。

There have been so many conversations about framing Rob Reiner's, artistic legacy.

你有没有感觉，他会如何定义自己的政治遗产？他会如何总结自己的一生？

Do you have any sense what he would have framed his political legacy as, how he would have summed it up?

你知道，他过去经常被引用。

Well, you know, he's been quoted a lot.

这周我看到了很多引述，说他最基本的理念是黄金法则。

I've seen a lot of quotes this week that he his fundamental belief was in the golden rule.

己所不欲，勿施于人。

Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.

只要你这么做，对他来说就足够了。

And if if you did that, that was enough for him.

我认为这就是他努力践行的生活方式。

And I think that's what he tried to live out.

你知道吗？

You know?

他真的努力做到言行一致，在这方面身体力行。

He he really did try to put his money where his mouth was in that regard.

我认为要施怜悯，行善事，谦卑地与你的神同行。

And I think show mercy, do kindness, walk humbly with your god.

我认为这些是他的人生信条。

I think those were kind of his watch words.

这位是记者兼作家托德·珀德姆，他正在撰写一本关于诺曼·李尔的书。

That is journalist and writer Todd Purdum who's working on a book about Norman Lear.

他最近的一本书是《德西·阿纳兹：电视的缔造者》。

His most recent book is Desi Arnaz, the man who invented television.

非常感谢您与我们交谈。

Thank you so much for talking to us.

谢谢你们邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

本集由埃琳娜·伯内特制作。

This episode was produced by Elena Burnett.

本集由考特尼·多宁编辑。

It was edited by Courtney Dorning.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这是来自NPR的《请思考》。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是斯科特·德特鲁。

I'm Scott Dettreau.

人工智能专家阿尔文·格雷林在硅谷和中国科技界工作了三十多年。

AI expert Alvin Graylin has worked in Silicon Valley and China's tech scene for over three decades.

他认为，谈论人工智能军备竞赛是一个巨大的错误。

Talk of an AI arms race, he thinks it's a big mistake.

当我听到那些在美国决策层极具影响力的人这样说时，我觉得这有点无知，而且非常可怕。

When I hear this from people who are very influential in the decision making in America, it feels a little bit ignorant and very scary.

关于2026年及以后的人工智能理念。

Ideas about AI in 2026 and beyond.

请在NPR应用程序或您收听播客的平台收听《TED播客汇》。

Listen to the TED Radio Hour on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

想听没有广告插播的这个播客吗？

Wanna hear this podcast without sponsor breaks?

亚马逊Prime会员可以通过亚马逊音乐免费收听无广告的《Consider This》，或者您也可以支持NPR的重要新闻报道，通过+.npr.org获取《Consider This》Plus版。

Amazon Prime members can listen to consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music, or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this plus at +.npr.org.

网址是+.npr.org。

That's +.npr.org.