2025年科研经费遭受重创。这对未来意味着什么？

嘿，你好。

Hey there.

我是胡安娜·萨默斯。

It's Juana Summers.

在今天的节目开始前，让我们再多聊聊公共媒体，以及NPR的独特之处。

Before the show today, let's talk a little more about public media and what makes NPR unique.

1967年的《公共广播法》规定，地方公共媒体电台应回应其所在社区的需求。

The Public Broadcasting Act of 1967 said that local public media stations should be responsive to their communities.

直到今天，它们依然如此。

To this day, they are.

NPR的成员电台正在许多当地报纸已停止发行的城镇和地区，报道市政会议和州议会的动态。

NPR member stations are reporting from town council meetings and state houses in many towns and regions where local newspapers have stopped publishing.

当其他地方的数字付费墙不断上升时，我们免费向所有人提供新闻和信息，无论他们是否有支付能力。

And as digital paywalls rise elsewhere, we provide news and information to everyone for free regardless of their ability to pay.

这是NPR永远不会改变的承诺。

This is a commitment that will never change at NPR.

但由于联邦对公共媒体的资助已被取消，我们现在更依赖您的支持来为您带来这些内容。

But with federal funding for public media eliminated, we now rely on your support to bring you consider this more than ever.

因此，我们非常感谢已经慷慨捐款的NPR Plus支持者和其他听众。

That's why we're so grateful to NPR Plus supporters and other listeners who have already stepped up to donate.

比如来自夏威夷的伊芙琳，她说公共广播是国家的声音，同时也是每个城镇、城市和州的声音。

Listeners like Evelyn in Hawaii who says public radio is the nation's voice and at the same time, the voice of each town, city, and state.

伊芙琳，非常感谢你。

Evelyn, thank you so much.

我们非常自豪，NPR网络覆盖了超过99%的人口。

We are so proud that the NPR network reaches more than 99% of the population.

这真的很酷。

That's pretty cool.

您今天可以通过注册成为NPR Plus会员，帮助确保这项免费公共服务惠及每个人。

You can help keep this free public service available to everyone today by signing up for NPR Plus.

这是一项简单的定期捐款，能让您享受NPR播客的专属福利。

It's a simple recurring donation that gets you perks to NPR's podcasts.

请访问 +.npr.org 加入我们。

Join us at +.npr.org.

好的。

Alright.

让我们进入今天的节目。

Let's get into today's show.

弗兰·巴纳尔感到担忧。

Fran Bagnall is worried.

我们正在疯狂地流失年轻科学家。

We are bleeding young scientists like crazy.

巴纳尔是科罗拉多大学的天体物理学家。

Bagnall is an astrophysicist at the University of Colorado.

她参与朱诺号任务，研究木星，而今年过得很难。

She works on the Juno mission studying Jupiter, and this year has been tough.

像她这样的领域资金面临巨大不确定性，她说这正在把年轻科学家赶走。

Funding for fields like hers has been facing a lot of uncertainty, and she says that's driving young scientists away.

他们说我可以去欧洲，因为欧洲航天局在资助研究项目，或者去澳大利亚，因为他们正在开展，或者去中国、日本、印度。

They're saying I can go to Europe because ESA is funding research projects or I can go to Australia because they're running or I can go to China or Japan, India.

他们都在开展并扩大自己的科学研究。

They're all working in and expanding their their science research.

巴尼亚尔表示，美国不仅会失去竞争力，她还担心太空探索等领域的机遇丧失会对年轻一代产生影响。

Bagnall says that not only will The United States lose its competitive edge, she also worries about the impact the loss of opportunity in areas like space exploration will have on younger generations.

真正让孩子们兴奋的是听到关于太空研究的消息。

What really excites kids is to hear about space research.

你知道，这很酷，很有趣。

You know, that's cool and neat.

对吧？

Right?

如果你告诉别人，你可以操作火星上的机器人之类的，他们会因此兴奋，从而认真做数学作业。

You know, if you say to someone, you could operate a robot on Mars or something like that, they'll get excited and do their math homework.

我知道这可能看起来不直接相关，但事实上，太空探索对激励人们学习数学、物理，并投身技术领域有着巨大的影响。

I know it may not seem like a direct connection but it is in fact huge that space exploration inspires and motivates people to do their math homework and do their physics and move into technical areas.

请想想，美国长期以来一直是科学研究的首要之地。

Consider this, The United States has long been the preeminent place for scientific research.

但联邦资金前景不明，削减经费的真正代价是什么？

But with federal funding uncertain at best, what are the real costs of cuts?

来自NPR，我是胡安娜·萨默斯。

From NPR, I'm Juana Summers.

这是来自NPR的‘请想想’节目。

It's consider this from NPR.

如果我们盘点2025年的赢家和输家，科学赫然在列，属于输家。

If we're taking stock of winners and losers in 2025, science is on the list of losers.

特朗普政府彻底打乱了对各类科学研究的联邦资金支持。

Trump administration upended federal funding for all kinds of scientific pursuits.

NPR的健康与科学记者罗布·斯坦和凯蒂·里德尔前来探讨这些削减的影响。

NPR health and science correspondents Rob Stein and Katie Riddle have come to talk about the implications of these cuts.

两位好。

Hi to both of you.

嘿，胡安娜。

Hey, Juana.

嗨，胡安娜。

Hi, Juana.

你好。

Hey there.

那么，如果我们能的话，先从美国科学的历史说起吧。

So let's start if we can with just a little history of science in America.

我了解到，第二次世界大战是美国对科学投入的一个转折点。

My understanding is that World War two was a turning point in this country's investment in science.

凯蒂，给我们讲一点

Katie, tell us a little bit

关于这个。

more about that.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

你知道，在二十世纪之交，科学与政府之间并没有必然的联系。

You know, at the turn of the twentieth century, there wasn't necessarily a marriage between science and government.

这种状况在二战时期，正如你所说，发生了变化。

That changed around the time, like you said, of World War two.

作为战争努力的一部分，美国大力投资科学研究，从而推动了青霉素的广泛应用和第一颗核武器的研制。

As part of the war effort, The US plowed money into scientific research, and it led to advancements like penicillin becoming widely available and the development of the first nuclear weapons.

我采访了加州大学圣巴巴拉分校的历史学家帕特里克·麦卡雷，他认为我们现有的体系很大程度上要归功于一个人——万尼瓦尔·布什。

I talked to this historian at the University of California, Santa Barbara, Patrick McCray, who gives a lot of the credit for our existing system to one man, Vannevar Bush.

他撰写了一份报告，呼吁美国大幅增加科研投入，而我们确实这样做了。

He wrote a report calling on The US to increase significantly investments, and and that is what we did.

健康、经济和国家安全。

Health, economy, and national security.

1945年之后，科学为我们提供了这三大核心利益，而令人并不意外的是，布什在报告中也正强调了科学将带来这三方面的贡献。

Those are the three main things that science provided for us after 1945, and those, not surprisingly, were the three main things that Bush argued for in his report that science would provide.

如今，美国是世界上最大的研发投资国。

Today, The US is the biggest investor in research and development in the world.

这种投资带来了巨大的突破，比如互联网的诞生和基因医学的发展。

This investment has led to tremendous breakthroughs, like the foundation of the Internet and genetic medicine.

罗布，鉴于我们今年所看到的一切，是否有人觉得国家对科学的承诺受到了质疑？

Rob, with everything we've seen this year, is there a sense that the country's commitment to science is in doubt?

是的。

Yeah.

卡迪亚和我采访的许多人都表达了深切的担忧，认为这一伟大的美国科学实验正遭受不可逆转的损害。

Many people who Kadia and I talked to for this reporting expressed grave concerns that this grand American scientific experiment is suffering irreparable damage.

以下是来自加州大学旧金山分校的布鲁斯·阿尔伯茨的说法。

Here's Bruce Alberts from the University of California, San Francisco.

他曾担任国家科学院院长十多年。

He ran the National Academy of Sciences for more than a decade.

这非常令人悲痛和不安，因为每个人都关心美国的繁荣和世界领导地位。

It's very tragic and very distressing, where everybody cares about US prosperity and US leadership in the world.

这简直就是自断手脚。

It's just, you know, shooting ourselves in the foot.

让我们现在深入一些细节。

Let's now dig into some of the details.

罗布，你一直报道美国国立卫生研究院，它是全球最大的生物医学科学公共资助机构。

Rob, you have been covering the National Institutes of Health, which is, of course, the largest public funder of biomedical science in the world.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你能的话，给我们更新一下那里的情况。

Bring us up to speed if you can about what's been happening there.

过去一年对国立卫生研究院本身的科学家，以及全球成千上万依赖NIH资助开展研究的科学家来说，都是动荡而创伤重重的一年。

It's been a tumultuous, traumatic year, not just for the scientists at the NIH itself, but also for many of the thousands of scientists around the world whose work lives and dies on NIH funding.

NIH约两万名员工中有数千人被裁撤。

The NIH staff of about 20,000 was cut by thousands.

许多留下的员工感到恐惧、愤怒和士气低落，数十亿美元用于研究疫苗、传染病、糖尿病和癌症等领域的拨款已被终止或陷入混乱。

Many of those left behind are frightened, angry, and demoralized, and billions of dollars in grants to study everything from, you know, vaccines and infectious diseases to diabetes and cancer have been terminated or thrown into chaos.

员工们是如何应对这一切的？

How are staffers coping with all of this?

这真的很艰难。

It's been rough.

西尔维娅·乔在国家癌症研究所负责资助工作。

Sylvia Jo manages grants at the National Cancer Institute.

她告诉我，她收到了一些匿名的内部邮件，仅仅因为研究内容可能涉及多样性、公平性和包容性（DEI）这样的字眼，就终止了研究项目。

She told me about getting anonymous internal emails terminating research just because it might mention something that sounds like diversity, equity, and inclusion, you know, DEI.

她并不是代表该机构发言。

She's not speaking on behalf of the agency.

我们称之为来自上方的无人机式袭击。

What we call drone attacks coming from above.

你知道的，没有名字，没有邮箱地址。

You know, no names, no email addresses.

我们根本不知道有哪个具体的人对此负责。

There's no human accountable human being that we know of.

所以这种从上而下的攻击，简直太疯狂了。

So to have this just, like, attack from above, it's just crazy.

这真的彻底摧毁了人的精神。

And it's just absolutely soul crushing.

所以这就是我最终决定离开的原因。

So that's why I eventually made the decision to leave.

我真的，你知道，再也受不了了。

I just, you know, can't can't take it anymore.

她将在下个月离开NIH，那时她已工作了十八年。

She's leaving the NIH next month after eighteen years.

我必须说，听到她把这描述为摧毁灵魂，真的令人震惊。

I have to say it's really striking to hear her describe this as soul crushing.

你有没有也从其他人那里听到过类似的说法？

Is that something that you're hearing from other people as well?

哦，绝对有。

Oh, absolutely.

我问过弗朗西斯·柯林斯博士这个问题。

I asked doctor Francis Collins about this.

他曾在民主党与共和党执政期间领导国立卫生研究院长达十二年。

He ran the NIH for a dozen years through Democratic and Republican administrations.

今年所做的一切基本上就是快速行动、打破常规，却对可能带来的后果毫无兴趣。

What was done this year was basically move fast and break things without a whole lot of interest in what the consequences might be.

我觉得这令人心碎。

I just find it heartbreaking.

这是一种相当普遍的看法。

And that's a pretty widely held view.

卡迪亚，你今年还报道过其他联邦机构。

Cadia, you've covered other federal agencies this year.

在本届政府下，科学还曾在哪些领域受到干扰？

Where else has science been disrupted under this administration?

罗布所描述的这种混乱和动荡，几乎遍及所有从事科学研究的联邦机构。

The chaos and tumult that Rob is describing, that has been widespread across nearly every federal agency that is engaged in science.

国家科学基金会、国家海洋和大气管理局（NOAA）、NASA，甚至退伍军人事务部，都经历了研究受阻、重大科研项目因人员冻结和资金不确定性而陷入停滞的局面。

The National Science Foundation, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration or NOAA or NASA, even the Department of Veterans Affairs has seen studies disrupted and major research projects put into limbo with staffing freezes and ongoing funding uncertainty.

仅国家科学基金会一家，就取消了1500多项资助，其中许多涉及多元化、公平与包容（DEI）项目。

At NSF alone, there were more than 1,500 grants canceled, many of them projects related to DEI.

这代表了超过10亿美元的资金被取消。

That represents more than $1,000,000,000 in funding.

所以，罗布，特朗普政府官员对这一切有何说法？

So, Rob, what do Trump administration officials have to say about all of this?

他们表示，包括食品药品监督管理局、疾病控制与预防中心，甚至国立卫生研究院（NIH）在内的国家科学机构，迫切需要彻底改革。

They say the nation's scientific institutions, including medical and public health agencies like the Food and Drug Administration, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and, yes, even the NIH desperately need shaking up.

我与杰·巴塔查亚博士讨论过这个问题。

I talked about this with doctor Jay Bhattacharya.

他是国立卫生研究院的院长。

He's the NIH director.

他告诉我，他知道士气受到了影响，但他认为自己已经扭转了局面，并重新激发了NIH的活力。

He told me he knows morale suffered, but argues he's turned that around and is reinvigorating the NIH.

国立卫生研究院已经发生了一些变化，我认为这些变化早已 overdue。

Some changes have happened at the NIH, which I think were long overdue.

改变国立卫生研究院的文化，以资助更具创新性的科学，减少我们在资助科研项目时的保守倾向。

Changes to change the culture of the NIH to fund more innovative science, be less risk averse in the portfolio of scientific projects we fund.

因为自2010年以来，美国的预期寿命一直停滞不前。

Because life expectancy in this country has been flatlined since 2010.

我们所拥有的研究想法——确实有很多了不起的创新，但这些创新并未转化为美国人更好的健康状况。

The research ideas that we've had, I mean, there are a lot of amazing innovations, but they have not translated over to better health for Americans.

他对白宫或卫生与公共服务部长罗伯特·F·肯尼迪 Jr. 将国立卫生研究院政治化的说法感到不满。

And he chafes at suggestions that the White House or Health and Human Services secretary Robert f Kennedy junior have politicized the NIH.

肯尼迪部长从未要求我干预任何科研项目的评审，让我必须让研究结果朝某个方向倾斜。

Secretary Kennedy has not asked me to put my thumb on the scales of any scientific project to say, you must have the scientific project come out this way or that way.

我认为那会是一条红线。

I think that would be a red line.

我从未从肯尼迪部长或总统那里看到过这种行为。

I have not seen that from secretary Kennedy or the president.

帕拉塔查里亚博士认为，美国仍然是全球生物医学的灯塔。

Doctor Paratacharya argues The US remains a biomedical beacon for the rest of the world.

我认为未来是光明的。

I think the future is bright.

我的意思是，地球上仍然没有比这里更好的地方来做生物医学研究。

I mean, there's still no better place on Earth to do biomedical science.

如果你是这个国家的年轻科学家，这里仍然是地球上做科研最顶尖的地方。

If you're a young scientist in this country, this is still by far the very best place on Earth to do science.

这就是NIH高层的观点。

So that's the view from the top at NIH.

但我很好奇，你从年轻科学家那里听到了什么？

But I wonder, what are you hearing from young scientists?

他们是否同意这里仍然是最好的地方？

Do they agree that this is still the best place to be?

我接触的很多科学家并不这么认为。

A lot of the scientists I talk to do not.

我与一位名叫布兰登·考文垂的年轻科学家交谈过，他并不确定。

I I spoke with one young scientist named Brandon Coventry, and he's not sure.

他是NIH资助的获得者，但其中一部分资金最近被撤销了。

He is a recipient of grant funding from NIH, some of it which was recently revoked.

他从小在伊利诺伊州的一个小镇长大。

He grew up here in a small town in Illinois.

现在他在威斯康星大学麦迪逊分校。

He's now at the University of Wisconsin Madison.

他研究可能帮助帕金森病和癫痫患者治疗的方法。

He researches treatments that could help people with diseases like Parkinson's and epilepsy.

考文垂正处于职业生涯的关键阶段。

Coventry is at a pivotal place in his career.

他希望创办自己的实验室，获得一个终身教职职位，并真正安定下来。

He's looking to start his own lab, take a tenure track position somewhere, and really put down roots.

他说，在目睹了今年发生的一切后，他不再相信美国会是一个可持续从事科研的地方。

He says after watching what's happened this year, he does not trust that The United States is going to be a sustainable place to do this.

我们已经失去了这种管道和对管道的确定性，而这种确定性长期以来一直是无论哪个政府执政时的基石。

And we've lost that sort of pipeline and certainty of the pipeline that's really been a staple irregardless of what administration has been in office.

这还是第一次，这种情况完全乱了套。

Like, this is the first time where that's just been out of whack.

所以，凯蒂，他现在在做什么？

So, Katie, what's he doing?

是的。

Yeah.

他正在考虑离开美国，可能去加拿大或其他地方。

He's considering leaving the country possibly for Canada or somewhere else.

他说，这种想离开的念头，他也从许多同龄人那里听到了。

He says this desire to leave is something that he hears from many of his peers as well.

我认为，对我们许多人来说，这是一种使命，是为了让世界变得更美好，我们都希望能在自己的祖国实现这一点。

I I think for many of us, this is a calling to make the world a better place, and we would love to do that in our homes.

但我们还是会去那些能够让我们实现这一目标的地方。

But we're gonna go to places where we can do that.

科文特里表示，即使未来某届政府重新打开资金阀门，要重建他对这个体系的信任，光靠这一点是不够的。

Coventry says even if the money spigot is turned back on in in a future administration, it's going to take more than that to rebuild his faith in the system.

而且，一个更大的问题是，这种使美国成为全球最大科学强国的伟大协议的信任，是否已经破裂到无法修复的地步。

And, you know, one of the bigger question is whether the trust in this grand bargain that made America the greatest scientific powerhouse has been fractured beyond repair.

NPR健康与科学记者罗布·斯坦和阿卡迪亚·里德尔。

NPR Health and Science Correspondents Rob Stein and Acadia Riddle.

感谢两位。

Thanks to both of you.

当然。

You bet.

谢谢，胡安娜。

Thanks, Juana.

本集由迈克尔·洛维特制作，音频工程由佐伊·范根霍文负责。

This episode was produced by Michael Lovett with audio engineering by Zoe Vangenhoven.

本集由莎拉·汉德尔、斯科特·亨斯利和阿米娜·汗编辑。

It was edited by Sarah Handel, Scott Hensley, and Amina Khan.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这是来自NPR的《深思》。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是胡安娜·萨默斯。

I'm Juana Summers.