参议员罗恩·约翰逊将亚历克斯·普雷蒂之死归咎于州和地方领导人

1月30日午夜。

Midnight, January 30.

那就是联邦政府资金耗尽的时间。

That is when funding for the federal government runs out.

我们以前都经历过很多次，大家都在等待和关注国会能否就一项持续决议达成一致，以确保政府资金持续流动。

We've all been here before many, many times, everyone waiting and watching for congress to come to an agreement on a continuing resolution to keep money flowing into the government.

还记得去年吗？

Remember last year?

称国会如今在白宫的帮助下未能履行职责，因为他们正朝着午夜前无法就支出协议达成一致而导致政府停摆的方向加速前进。

Saying that congress, with the help of the White House right now, is not doing its job since they are now barreling toward a shutdown if they can't agree on a spending deal by midnight tonight.

或者回想一下2021年。

Or remember back in 2021.

但时间正在流逝。

But the clock is ticking.

如果短期内的拨款法案未能获得批准，政府停摆的威胁正在迫近。

The threat of a government shutdown is looming right now if a short term spending bill isn't approved.

我们再往回看远一点。

And let's go even further back.

2018年。

2018.

再过一小时，联邦政府将部分停摆。

In just an hour, the federal government will partially shut down the

参众两院。

House Senate.

时间感觉不一样了，因为当时达成了协议。

Time feels different because there was a deal.

本周参议院的投票本应只是走个过场。

The vote in the Senate this week was supposed to be just a formality.

直到移民执法官员在明尼阿波利斯街头开枪射杀了亚历克斯·普雷特。

That was until immigration enforcement officers shot and killed Alex Prette on the streets of Minneapolis.

如果共和党人拒绝与我们合作以限制移民与海关执法局并终止暴力行为，那就是在告诉美国民众，他们选择保护移民与海关执法局，而非保护人民的安全。

If Republicans refuse to work with us to rein in ICE and to end the violence, they're telling the American people they're choosing to protect ICE over choosing to protect people's safety.

参议院少数党领袖查克·舒默周四在参议院发言，质疑为国土安全部拨出的资金，尽管他的民主党同僚支持该支出法案的其他部分。

Senate minority leader Chuck Schumer stood on the floor Thursday challenging the funding that has been set aside for the Department of Homeland Security even though his senate Democrats do support the rest of the spending package.

加利福尼亚州的民主党参议员亚当·希夫告诉NPR斯塔温斯基，移民与海关执法局的行动必须改变。

Democratic senator Adam Schiff of California told NPR Stavinsky how ICE operations must change.

除非进行大规模改革，否则我不会再多花一分钱给移民与海关执法局。

I'm not prepared to spend another dime on ICE unless there's just a massive set of reforms.

考虑到民主党对明尼苏达州移民执法行动的抵制，可能会导致政府部分停摆。

Consider this democratic resistance to the immigration enforcement operation in Minnesota could result in a partial government shutdown.

距离最后期限仅剩数小时，立法者能否达成协议？民主党人能否获得他们想要的改革？

With hours left, can lawmakers even reach a deal, and will Democrats even get the reforms they want?

来自NPR，我是陈尔莎。

From NPR, I'm Elsa Cheng.

在《哦，天哪》与斯科特·卡特节目中，聆听信徒的声音。

On Ye Gods with Scott Carter, hear from the faithful.

我告诉我那位非常虔诚的妈妈，她需要去认识耶稣。

I told my very Catholic mother that she needs to meet Jesus.

不信教的人

The faithless.

我真的不相信上帝的存在

I just so don't believe in God.

无畏的人

And the fearless.

服务他人，与人建立联系

Serve people, connect with people.

这才是我们繁荣的方式

That's how we thrive.

如果人生是一场谜团，我们就去调查

If life's a mystery, we investigate.

谁干的？

Who done it?

我祈祷幽默之神

I pray that the humor god

无论你在哪儿听播客，都要认真收听斯科特·卡特的《向众神聆听》。

Listen religiously to ye gods with Scott Carter wherever you get your podcasts.

这里是《新鲜空气》的联合主持人塔尼娅·莫斯利。

This is Tanya Moseley, cohost of Fresh Air.

你可能会在深夜电视节目或YouTube上看到你喜爱的演员、导演和喜剧演员，但《新鲜空气》能带你深入探索。

You'll see your favorite actors, directors, and comedians on late night TV shows or YouTube, but what you get with Fresh Air is a deep dive.

花些高质量的时间，与比莉·艾利什、奎斯特洛夫、爱莉安娜·格兰德、斯蒂芬·科尔伯特等人深入交流。

Spend some quality time with people like Billie Eilish, Questlove, Ariana Grande, Stephen Colbert, and so many more.

我们会提出你在其他地方听不到的问题。

We ask questions you won't hear asked anywhere else.

收听来自NPR和WHYY的《新鲜空气》播客。

Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.

这是NPR的《就此而言》。

It's consider this from NPR.

与参议院的民主党同僚不同，威斯康星州的共和党参议员罗恩·约翰逊认为，国土安全部的拨款根本不应被卷入明尼苏达州移民执法行动的争端中。

Unlike his Democratic colleagues in the Senate, Wisconsin Republican Ron Johnson doesn't think that DHS funding should even be pulled into the battle over the immigration enforcement operation in Minnesota.

约翰逊表示，他确实希望对亚历克斯·普雷蒂枪击案展开调查，但不应以政府资金为代价。

Johnson says he does want an investigation into the shooting of Alex Preti, but not at the expense of government funding.

我问约翰逊参议员，他认为移民与海关执法局是否需要改革。

I asked senator Johnson if he thinks ICE even needs reforms.

我认为我们有必要加强边境安全。

Well, what I agree is that we needed to secure our border.

我认为，我们现在面临的是一场由拜登总统和民主党人造成的巨大混乱，他们开放了边境，允许数百万人涌入这个国家，而移民与海关执法局只是像过去在奥巴马政府和拜登政府时期一样，执行着一贯的执法行动，地方警察也配合这些行动。

What I believe is that, what we're dealing with right now is the enormous mess created by president Biden and Democrats who opened up our border, allowed millions of people to flood in this country, where ICE is, doing enforcement actions just like they've always done under the Obama administration and the Biden administration, where they're doing these enforcement actions and local police are cooperating.

没有暴力行为。

There there's no violence.

没有任何问题。

There's no problem.

我们只是在执行法律。

We're just enforcing the law.

明尼阿波利斯的问题在于，州长和市长都在抵制。

The problem in Minneapolis is we have a governor and a mayor who are resisting

那么你不认为移民与海关执法局需要任何改革吗？

You don't think that ICE needs any reforms then?

在移民执法人员方面，联邦政府方面不应该有任何改变。

There should be no changes on the federal government side when it comes to immigration agents.

当你提出这个问题时，当民主党人关注这一点时，他们关注的是错误的问题。

When you ask that question, when Democrats focus on that, they're focusing on the wrong problem.

这个问题的根源在于他们开放的边境、允许数百万包括罪犯在内的人员涌入这个国家，现在执法部门不得不处理这个问题。

The root cause of this problem is the border they opened up, the millions of people, including criminals that they've allowed to fund this country, and now law enforcement has to take care of that problem.

但这只是

But it's

那么，你认为需要做出哪些改变，才能让执法部门更好地应对你所识别并描述的这个问题？

So what changes do you think need to be seen for law enforcement to better take care of this problem that you have identified, that you have characterized?

第一个改变是我们巩固了边境。

The first change was we secured the border.

边境必须保持安全。

It has to remain secure.

第二个改变是，有一些人必须被逮捕，因为他们是罪犯、杀人犯、强奸犯、性犯罪者和毒品贩子，必须被监禁或驱逐。

The the second change is there are people that need to be apprehended because they're criminals, murderers, rapists, sex human drug traffickers that need to be apprehended and either jailed or deported.

而现在，这些庇护城市以及弗莱市长和沃尔茨州长等人正在抵制这些行动，这导致了悲剧的发生。

And that right now is what these sanctuary cities and people like mayor Fry and governor Walts are resisting and that have led to the tragedy.

如果当时没有组织性地抵制这些执法行动，明尼阿波利斯的那两名人员本应还活着。

Had there not been an organized effort to resist those law enforcement actions, those two individuals in Minneapolis should still be alive.

特朗普总统曾试图改组明尼阿波利斯联邦移民执法的领导层。

President Trump has tried to shake up the leadership for the federal immigration crackdown in Minneapolis.

他已将边境巡逻官员格雷格·博维诺替换为移民事务特使汤姆·霍曼。

He's replaced the border patrol official Greg Bovino with border czar Tom Homan.

霍曼今天表示，他将‘解决’那里的问题。

Homan said today that he is going to, quote, fix the situation there.

你认为通过这次领导层变动，有可能解决明尼阿波利斯的问题吗？

Do you believe it is possible to fix the situation in Minneapolis with this change in leadership?

如果沃尔茨州长和弗莱市长能配合ICE，而不是抵制他们，不把执法人员推向危险境地制造这种‘烈士’，是的，我认为这个问题是可以解决的。

If if governor Walz and and mayor Fry would cooperate with ICE rather than resist them, rather than send people into harm's way to create these types of martyrs, yeah, I think it could be fixed.

再说一遍，我个人只想针对罪犯。

Again, I I personally I wanna target the criminals.

你知道的。

You know?

我不，我不，我不希望，我理解。

I I don't I don't I don't want I understand.

移民局不应该针对那些正当工作、为社会做贡献的人，但确实有很多罪犯。

ICE ICE targeting other people who are peer working and and contributing to society, but there are a lot of criminals.

有很多被放进来的人是罪犯，必须将他们逮捕、监禁并驱逐。

There are a lot of criminals that have been let in that need to be apprehended and jailed and deported.

好的。

Okay.

你总是把责任推给明尼阿波利斯的市长和明尼苏达州的州长。

You keep shifting blame to the mayor in Minneapolis and the governor in Minnesota.

你能具体告诉我，你需要他们做什么才能真正解决明尼阿波利斯的问题吗？

Can you tell me specifically what you need to see from the well, what do you need to see from them that's specifically to fix the situation in Minneapolis?

像其他州长和市长那样做。

Do what other governors and mayors have done.

与移民和海关执法局合作。

Cooperate with ICE.

当联邦执法部门执行完全合法的执法行动时，与他们合作。

Cooperate with federal law enforcement when they're carrying out completely legal enforcement actions.

配合他们。

Cooperate with them.

不要抵抗。

Don't resist.

不要让您的市民身处危险之中，去抵抗或抗议他们。

Don't send to your citizens that are harm way harm's way to to resist them and protest against them.

配合。

Cooperate.

当你逮捕非法移民时，应将他们扣押待遣。

When you when you arrest in illegal immigrant, hold them for detention.

所以

So that

我只是觉得这不能接受。

I just think that can't stand.

supposed

Supposed

如果他们看到

to do if they see

联邦移民官员在没有自卫、没有迫在眉睫的危险的情况下，比如致命开枪时，州和地方官员该怎么做？

federal what are state and local officials supposed to do if they see federal immigration agents doing unlawful actions such as fatally shooting people when it's not in self defense, when there is no imminent danger in that situation.

联邦特工面前根本没有武器挥舞。

There's no weapon being wielded right in the face of the federal agent.

他们开放边境、不合作，才造成了这种悲剧的局面。

Their open borders, their lack of cooperation created this circumstance for that tragedy.

所以他们本应在一开始就配合。

So they should have cooperated on the front end.

目前，将对事件的具体经过进行彻底调查，我只是想说，我对那些时刻面临威胁的移民与海关执法局官员深表同情。

Right now, there will be a thorough investigation in terms of exactly what happened, and I'm just saying I've got a great deal sympathy for those ICE officers who are under constant threat.

如果你身处执法部门，突然间所有人都反对你正在做的事情，涌到你面前，你会有什么感受？

How how would you like to be in law enforcement and everybody all of a sudden, you've got people who are opposed to what you're trying to do, showing up.

你不知道他们是否携带武器，也不知道他们是不是只是在拍摄摄像机。

You don't know whether they're armed, whether they're just vanishing cameras.

你完全不清楚。

You don't know.

你必须时刻保持高度警觉，正是这种状态导致了那场悲剧。

You're gonna be on hair trigger alert, and that's what caused that tragedy.

无论何时，执法官员使用致命武力都有明确的法律限制。

There are still legal requirements for when any law enforcement officer can use lethal force.

不能仅仅因为不确定对方是否携带武器就开枪。

It's not just if they don't know if the person is armed or not.

最后一个问题是。

Last question.

我们回到联邦支出法案上。

Going back to the federal spending package.

民主党至少至少希望将国土安全部的拨款从整个支出法案中分离出来，以维持政府运转。

Democrats, at least, at the very least, they just want to split DHS funding from the rest of the spending package to keep the government open.

你同意这个想法吗？

Do you agree with that idea?

那么他们永远不会为国土安全部拨款。

Then they will never fund DHS.

所以这只是一个策略。

So it's a ploy.

我的意思是，他们确实会这么做。

I mean, they'll they'll do it.

他们会说服像你这样的人，觉得他们只是非常理性。

They'll convince some people like you that, oh, they're they're just being very reasonable.

这是一种他们想要像削减警察经费一样削减国土安全部经费的方式，后果将不堪设想。

This is a way that they can defund DHS just like they wanna defund the police, to disastrous consequences.

所以现在我无法支持这一努力。

So now I I can't support that effort.

感谢来自威斯康星州的共和党参议员罗恩·约翰逊加入我们。

Republican senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin, thank you very much for joining us.

祝你今天愉快。

Have a good day.

保重。

Take care.

刚才那位是威斯康星州的共和党参议员罗恩·约翰逊。

That was Ron Johnson, Republican senator of Wisconsin.

本集由布里安娜·斯科特制作。

This episode was produced by Brianna Scott.

本集由克里斯托弗·因塔利亚塔和凯尔西·斯内尔剪辑。

It was edited by Christopher Intagliata and Kelsey Snell.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·严吉根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这是来自NPR的节目。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是陈尔莎。

I'm Elsa Cheng.

我是玛丽·路易丝·凯利。

I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

世界新闻每小时都在变化。

World news is changing by the hour.

在《来源与方法》——NPR的国家安全播客中，我们放宽视角，解析不断变化的联盟、全球热点，以及伊朗、委内瑞拉、格陵兰等地真正发生的事情。

On sources and methods, NPR's national security podcast, we zoom out to explain shifting alliances, global flashpoints, and what's really happening in places like Iran, Venezuela, Greenland.

我们的现场记者串联起线索，帮助你理解脚下正在改变的世界秩序。

Our reporters on the ground connect the dots to help you understand a world order changing beneath our feet.

请在NPR应用程序或您收听播客的任何平台收听《来源与方法》。

Listen to sources and methods on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

委内瑞拉、伊朗、格陵兰。

Venezuela, Iran, Greenland.

世界大事瞬息万变。

World events move quickly.

通过NPR的《世界现状》来理清这些事件。

Make sense of them with state of the world from NPR.

我们每天工作日都会在短短几分钟内为您带来全球实地报道。

We bring you on the ground reporting from around the globe in just a few minutes every weekday.

请在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台收听《世界现状》。

Listen to State of the World on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

想在没有广告中断的情况下收听这个播客吗？

Wanna hear this podcast without sponsor breaks?

亚马逊Prime会员可以通过亚马逊音乐无广告收听《考虑一下》，或者您也可以支持NPR的重要新闻报道，通过+.npr.org获取《考虑一下》Plus版。

Amazon Prime members can listen to consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music, or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this plus at +.npr.org.

网址是+.npr.org。

That's +.npr.org.