"她将返回委内瑞拉，"玛丽亚·科里纳·马查多的女儿说道

委内瑞拉反对派领袖玛丽亚·卡琳娜·马查多上周戴着假发乔装打扮，穿越多个军事检查站逃离祖国。

Venezuelan opposition leader Maria Carina Machado used a wig and a disguise as she slipped through multiple military checkpoints to escape her home country last week.

她试图前往挪威领取诺贝尔和平奖，该奖项表彰她为委内瑞拉民主奋斗并挑战其威权领导人尼古拉斯·马杜罗的贡献。

She was trying to get to Norway to accept the Nobel Peace Prize that she was awarded for her work fighting for democracy in Venezuela and challenging its authoritarian leader, Nicolas Maduro.

这次行动危险而大胆，宛如惊悚片情节。

The operation was dangerous and daring, like something out of a thriller.

马查多最终抵达奥斯陆，但未能赶上颁奖典礼。

Machado made it to Oslo, but not in time for the ceremony.

周三，马查多的女儿安娜·卡琳娜·索萨代表母亲接受了诺贝尔和平奖，并谈到了她对祖国的承诺。

On Wednesday, Machado's daughter, Anna Carina Sosa, accepted the Nobel Peace Prize on her mother's behalf and talked about her commitment to her country.

这正是激励她的动力，也是激励我们所有人的动力。

This is what drives her, what drives all of us.

她渴望生活在一个自由的委内瑞拉，并且永远不会放弃这个目标。

She wants to live in a free Venezuela, and she will never give up on that purpose.

索萨演讲几小时后，母女得以团聚，马查多向欢呼的支持者们致意。

Hours after Sosa's speech, mother and daughter were reunited, and Machado greeted cheering supporters.

他们在高喊'valiente'，意思是勇敢。

They're shouting valiente, meaning courageous.

这是玛丽亚·卡琳娜·马查多自一月份以来的首次公开露面。

It was Maria Carina Machado's first public appearance since January.

根据国际观察员验证的投票记录，去年她的反对派运动以压倒性优势击败马杜罗后，她已躲藏了一年。

She spent a year in hiding after her opposition movement defeated Maduro in last year's election by a wide margin, according to voting records validated by international observers.

但马杜罗拒绝下台，并下令对反对派进行大规模镇压。

But Maduro refused to leave office, and he ordered a massive crackdown on the opposition.

想想看，前往奥斯陆领取诺贝尔和平奖的旅程，标志着玛丽亚·卡琳娜·马查多国际施压马杜罗政权运动的新阶段开始了。

Consider this, The journey to Oslo for the Nobel Peace Prize was the start of a new phase of Maria Carina Machado's international campaign to bring pressure on the Maduro regime.

马查多一直是美国在加勒比地区军事集结的支持者，尽管她同时推动委内瑞拉的民主进程。

Machado has been a supporter of The US military buildup in The Caribbean, even as she pushes for democracy in Venezuela.

NPR新闻，我是迈尔斯·帕克斯。

From NPR News, I'm Miles Parks.

NPR作为美国传统已延续五十余载。

NPR has been an American tradition for more than fifty years.

现在轮到你来帮忙传递这份精神了。

Now it's up to you to help pass it on.

请通过今日捐款确保它的未来。

Ensure its future with a donation today.

访问 donate.npr.org 进行捐赠。

Visit donate.npr.org.

还在寻找完美的节日礼物吗？

Still looking for the perfect holiday gift?

NPR商店回归了，这里有您喜爱的标志T恤、梦寐以求的Tiny Desk连帽衫，以及为节日礼物清单上每个人准备的新装备。

The NPR shop is back with the logo tee you love, the tiny desk hoodie you've been dreaming of, and new gear for everyone on your holiday gift list.

在这个节日季，送出支持独立新闻的礼物。

Give the gift that supports independent journalism this holiday season.

立即前往 shopnpr.org 选购。

Shop now at shopnpr.org.

抽时间了解新闻很重要。

Making time for the news is important.

但当你需要休息时，NPR的音乐播客《All Songs Considered》会为你提供所需。

But when you need a break, we've got you covered on All Songs Considered, NPR's music podcast.

把它想象成一个音乐发现节目，一个与朋友共度的应得逃离，以及，没错，一些严肃的音乐见解。

Think of it like a music discovery show, a well deserved escape with friends, and, yeah, some serious music insight.

我要实话实说。

I'm a keep it real.

我完全不知道这个故事讲的是什么。

I have no idea what the story is about.

每周二你都可以在任何播客平台上收听《All Songs Considered》的新剧集。

Here are new episodes of All Songs Considered every Tuesday wherever you get podcasts.

这里是NPR的《Consider This》节目。

It's Consider This from NPR.

我是迈尔斯·帕克斯。

I'm Miles Parks.

本周，没有人比委内瑞拉反对派领袖兼活动家玛丽亚·卡琳娜·马查多的孩子们更以个人视角关注她从祖国委内瑞拉的危险逃亡。

No one was watching Venezuelan opposition leader and activist Maria Carina Machado's perilous escape from her home country of Venezuela this week through a more personal lens than her children.

她的女儿安娜·卡琳娜·索萨已有两年多未见母亲，直到她们在奥斯陆重逢。

Her daughter Anna Carina Sosa hadn't seen her in more than two years before they were reunited in Oslo.

离开委内瑞拉风险极高，目前尚不清楚马查多能否在不被捕的情况下获准回国。

Leaving Venezuela was extremely risky, and it's unclear if Machado will be allowed to return without facing arrest.

关于本周戏剧性事件及委内瑞拉的未来走向，我们请到了安娜·卡琳娜·索萨女士。

For more on this week's dramatic events and on the future of Venezuela, we have with us Anna Carina Sosa.

欢迎您。

Welcome.

谢谢，迈尔斯。

Thank you, Miles.

这是我的荣幸。

It is my pleasure.

请多跟我们分享些与母亲重逢时的细节。

So tell us a little bit more about this moment where you were reunited with your mother.

当时是怎样的情景？

What was that like?

迈尔斯，说实话这两年我一直在想那一刻，感觉像过了十年，因为我母亲的生命时刻面临威胁。

Miles, I've been thinking about that moment for the last two years, which felt like ten, to be honest, because my mother faces constant threats to her life.

风险非常真实，我多年来一直梦想着这一刻，直到我们终于见到她。

The risk was very real, and I had been dreaming about this moment for what it seems like years until we had finally seen her.

所以在这个背景下，还有诺贝尔和平奖的因素。

So it in the backdrop, there was a Nobel Peace Prize.

但对我们来说，这真的只是一个在感觉很久之后终于能拥抱母亲的时刻。

But for us, it was truly just a moment to embrace our mother after what it felt a very long time.

我很好奇。

I'm curious.

在你成长过程中，是否有某个时刻让你意识到母亲的工作既可能改变你们的关系，又可能让她陷入危险？我觉得这对孩子来说是很可怕的事情。

Was there a moment as you were growing up when you realized that your mother's work was going to both, you know, potentially change your relationship with her and also potentially put her in danger, which is a very scary thing, I feel like, for a child to understand?

我确实认为有一个关键转折点。

I do think there was one pivotal moment.

那时我12岁。

I was 12 years old.

那是2004年在加拉加斯，我母亲正被指控参与监狱暴动和恐怖主义活动。

This was 2004 in Caracas, and my mother was being accused of of prison and terrorism.

她不得不面对一位检察官出庭，我们很清楚这位检察官完全受查韦斯政权控制。

And she had to appear in front of a prosecutor, which we knew very well was controlled by the Chavista regime.

当时乌戈·查韦斯是总统。

Hugo Chavez was the president back then.

尽管所有人都劝告母亲不要向这个腐败的检察官自首，但她仍坚持要主动投案。

And my mother, despite being advised not to present herself in front of this corrupt prosecutor, she explained she was gonna hand herself in.

这是我生命中第一次，她无法保证一切会好起来。

And it was the first time in my life that she could not guarantee that things were gonna be okay.

对于一个12岁的孩子来说，这实在令人不安。

And as a child of 12 years old at that point that was very unsettling.

她握住我的手，直视我的眼睛，用我从未见过的坚定语气解释说，她这么做是为了我，也为了我两个弟弟里卡多和恩里克的未来，她要我承诺在她不在时照顾他们。

And she held my hand, looked me in the eye and with a conviction I had not witnessed before, explained she was doing this for me and for the future of my two younger brothers, Ricardo and Enrique, and she made me promise that I was gonna take care of them in her absence.

那一刻我眼里噙着泪水，只想哀求她不要这么做。

I think at that point, I mean, I had tears in my eye obviously, and all I wanted to do was beg her.

做个普通人，别这么做，就做我的妈妈。

To be normal, to not do it, to just be my mother.

我内心突然被点燃，意识到至少应该告诉自己我支持她，让她知道我们会没事的，她应该继续下去。

Something inside of me just lit up and realized I had to at least tell myself that I supported her and made and let her know that we were going to be okay and that she should continue.

我想知道你是否有所预感，或者能否多谈谈未来会发生什么——你母亲会回到委内瑞拉吗？你对她的工作前景有什么看法？

I'm wondering if you have any sense or if you can talk a little bit more about what's going to happen in the future on whether your mother is going to return to Venezuela, or do you have any sense of what the future of her work is?

嗯。

Yeah.

我毫不怀疑她会回到委内瑞拉。

I mean, I have absolutely no doubt that she's going to return to Venezuela.

我母亲从未违背过承诺。

My mother has never broken a promise.

坦白说，有时候我自私地希望她作为母亲不要这么固执。

Sometimes I'm very frank, I wish she wasn't so stern as a daughter, selfishly.

但她有着如此坚定的信念和无与伦比的勇气。

But she has so much conviction and so much courage.

但她一定会做到的。

But she will do it.

这一点毫无疑问。

There is absolutely no doubt.

从我记事起，她生命中的每一天都在为解放委内瑞拉而奋斗，即使现在身处奥斯陆，这一点也从未改变。

And everything she has done since as long as I can remember, every day of her life has been in favor of liberating Venezuela, and that has not changed because she's here in Oslo.

你从她那里或你自己认为，你母亲多年来奋斗的自由委内瑞拉能否仅靠委内瑞拉人的行动实现？还是需要外部干预？

Do you have a sense from her or or or in your own thoughts about whether that liberation, the free Venezuela that your mother's been working for for so many years can come just from Venezuelans actions, or is there outside intervention that's needed?

我的意思是，你看。

I mean, look.

委内瑞拉人民已经通过公民组织、和平手段、在恶劣条件下坚持民主进程，向世界证明了人民要求变革的意志，我们已竭尽所能。

Venezuelans have done everything there is in our power through civic organization, through peaceful means, through going to democratic process in terrible conditions, and then proving it to the world that the will of the people demand change.

我们亲眼目睹并经历了经济崩溃80%的惨状。

We have seen and lived an economy that has collapsed by 80%.

这些不仅仅是数字，而是实实在在的生计。

I mean, these are not just numbers, these are livelihoods.

你会看到母亲们在垃圾堆里翻找食物来喂养她们的孩子。

You see mothers scouting in the trash to feed their children.

这是一个饱受饥饿折磨、遭受屈辱的社会，但我们依然屹立不倒，毫不动摇。

This has been a society that has been starved, that's been humiliated, and we still stand unbroken, unshaken.

但当然，我们需要来自国外的压力。

But of course, we need pressure from abroad.

当然，我们需要一个国际联盟。

Of course, we need an international coalition.

委内瑞拉政权得到了全球最恶劣的国家和组织的支持。

The Venezuelan regime counts with support from the most criminal states and organizations around the world.

因此我们当然需要世界各民主政府团结一致，与委内瑞拉人民站在一起。

So of course we need the democratic governments of the world to stand united and stand with the people of Venezuela.

当然我们希望这一切能有条不紊地进行，因为我们值得这样的对待，这也是我们一直要求的。

Now it is of course our wish to that this happens in an orderly manner because we deserve it and we have demanded that.

我们真心相信事情会朝着这个方向发展。

And we truly believe that it will be the case.

你上次见到母亲已经是两年前的事了。

So it was two years since you last saw your mother.

当你谈到她返回委内瑞拉的想法时，对于她离开后你多久能再见到她，你有什么预感吗？

And as you talk about her the idea of her returning to Venezuela, do you have any sense on how long it will be before you can see her again after she leaves?

作为女儿，这确实是我内心挣扎的事情。

It's something that, of course, as as a daughter, I struggle with.

因为即使在我们相见之前，我也知道她很可能无法离开委内瑞拉。

Because even before we saw each other and I knew there was always a big possibility she wasn't going to be able to get out of Venezuela.

但即便我允许自己怀抱希望、梦想，为即将见到她而兴奋，我内心某处也始终恐惧着那个明知终将再次分离的时刻——以及其中蕴含的所有风险。

But even as I allowed myself to hope, to dream, to be excited about seeing her, part of me was also dreading the moment that I knew I was going to have to part ways again with all the risks that it implied.

迈尔斯，我希望并真心相信这个时间不会太久，因为过渡进程已经启动。

I hope and I really believe, Miles, that it's not going to be too long because the transition has already been set in motion.

这不是会不会发生的问题，而是何时发生的问题。

This is not a matter of if, but when.

我们知道委内瑞拉很快就会真正获得自由。

And we know Venezuela will be free really soon.

这已经在发生了。

It's already happening.

我真心希望并相信，这一天不会太远。

I really hope and believe and have faith that it'll be not long before it does.

当你说'已经在进行中'时，能否详细解释一下你的意思？

When you say it's already in motion, can you explain that a little bit more what you mean by that?

委内瑞拉人民通过总统选举用选票赶走了他们。

Well, the Venezuelan people went to presidential elections and voted them out.

他们已经失去了人民的支持——不仅因为他们本就极不得人心，我们感受得到也知道这点，只是此前未能证实。

They have lost the support of the people, not only before they were hugely unpopular and we felt it, we knew it, but we hadn't proved it.

而现在我们证实了这一点。

And now we have proven it.

所以变革已在推进，因为人民已经发声，因为世界都知道他们失去了权力，委内瑞拉人民不再需要他们，他们已彻底丧失合法性与公信力，人们终于看清了他们的真面目。

So it is in motion because the people have spoken, because the world knows that they have lost power, that the Venezuelan people does not want them, and they have lost all legitimacy and credibility, and they are known for what they are finally.

现在美国国内正在激烈讨论，美国政府应该以多大力度介入这一局势。

There's so much talk right now here in The US about how heavy handed the US government should be in intervening in this situation.

我想从你的角度来看，美国明确介入委内瑞拉政府更迭是否存在风险？

And I guess I wonder from your perspective, is there a risk from The United States being really clearly involved in a changing of the government in Venezuela?

听着。

Look.

我们现在听到的言论和委内瑞拉政权喜欢宣扬的说法是这关乎政权更迭，并试图挑起美国民众的分裂，而事实上委内瑞拉人民已经授权了政权更迭。

The rhetoric we hear now and the narrative that that the the regime in Venezuela likes to put out is that this is about regime change, and tries to evoke this division in the American public, when in fact the Venezuelan people have already mandated the regime change.

所以我恳请美国人民倾听我们委内瑞拉人的声音，而不是被政权及其支持利益集团散布的言论所影响。

So it's something that I urge the American people to listen to what, to us, to Venezuelans, and not to the narrative that has been, you know, spread out by the regime, and and the different interest groups that support them.

美国政府可能采取或不采取什么行动，我无法置评。

What the US government might or might not do, I cannot comment on.

这不由我们决定。

And it is not up to us.

也不取决于我们。

It does not depend on us.

重点应该放在由我们发起、为我们人民争取权益的斗争上。

And the focus should be on the struggle for our people that have been driven by by us and for us.

这位是安娜·卡琳娜·索萨，委内瑞拉政治家兼活动家玛丽亚·卡琳娜·马查多的女儿。

That's Anna Carina Sosa, the daughter of Maria Carina Machado, Venezuelan politician and activist.

非常感谢您今天接受我们的采访。

Thank you so much for talking with us today.

谢谢邀请我，迈尔斯。

Thank you for for having me, Miles.

本期节目由艾弗里·基特利和丹尼尔·奥夫曼制作。

This episode was produced by Avery Keatley and Daniel Offman.

由莎拉·罗宾斯编辑。

It was edited by Sarah Robbins.

我们的执行制作人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这里是NPR的《Consider This》节目。

Consider this from NPR.

我是迈尔斯·帕克斯。

I'm Miles Parks.

你关心世界上正在发生的事情。

You care about what's happening in the world.

通过NPR的《世界现状》播客保持信息畅通。

Stay informed with NPR's state of the world podcast.

只需几分钟，我们带你了解全球各地的故事。

In just a few minutes, we take you to stories around the globe.

你可能会听到世界冲突的最新进展，或是了解全球事件对你咖啡价格的影响。

You might hear the latest developments in world conflicts or about what global events mean for the price of your coffee.

请收听NPR的《世界现状》播客。

Listen to the State of the World podcast from NPR.