司法部公布了爱泼斯坦案的最终文件。幸存者们接下来该何去何从？

在审查了数百万份文件和数千张图片与视频后，司法部表示，对定罪性犯罪者杰弗里·爱泼斯坦的审查已经完成。

Millions of documents and thousands of images and videos later, the justice department says their review into convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein is done.

这项审查结束了。

This review is is over.

我的意思是，我们审查了超过六百万份文件、数千段视频以及数以万计的图片。

I mean, we reviewed over 6,000,000 pieces of paper, thousands of videos, thousand tens of thousands of images.

这是副司法部长托德·布兰奇周日对美国广播公司新闻的发言。

That's deputy attorney general Todd Blanche speaking to ABC News on Sunday.

去年十一月，国会通过了《爱泼斯坦文件透明法案》，该法案从法律上要求司法部发布所有经过敏感信息（涉及受害者）遮蔽的文件。

Last November, congress passed the Epstein Files Transparency Act, which legally required the DOJ to release all the files with redactions for sensitive information related to victims.

但实际情况并非如此。

That is not exactly what happened.

此次发布的文件中包含了裸体女性或可能为未成年女孩的照片，以及受害者的姓名。

This release included pictures of nude women or possibly girls and the names of victims.

随后，司法部一名女发言人告诉《纽约时报》，该部门正在回应受害者的关切，并进行额外的遮蔽处理。

A DOJ spokeswoman subsequently told the New York Times the department was addressing victim concerns and making additional redactions.

布兰奇表示，周五的发布意味着该部门现已合规。

And Blanche said that Friday's release means the department is now in compliance.

在CNN上，他驳回了要求进一步起诉的呼声。

On CNN, he dismissed calls for additional prosecutions.

有很多可怕的照片，似乎是艾泼斯坦或他身边的人拍摄的，但这并不足以让我们起诉某人。

There's a lot of horrible photographs that appear to be taken by mister Epstein or or people around him, but that doesn't allow us necessarily to prosecute somebody.

受害者希望得到补偿，我们也希望如此。

The victims want to be made whole, and and so we we want that.

但这并不意味着我们可以凭空捏造证据，或凭空构建一个根本不存在的案件。

But that doesn't mean we can just create evidence or that we can just kind of, come up with a case that doesn't that that isn't there.

请考虑一下。

Consider this.

艾泼斯坦的幸存者们要求公开所有文件。

Survivors of Epstein's abuse have demanded the release of all files.

那么，他们接下来该怎么办？

So where do they go from here?

来自NPR，我是斯科特·德特拉。

From NPR, I'm Scott Detra.

本广告由Wise提供，Wise是为全球使用货币的国际人士打造的应用。

This message comes from Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe.

您只需轻点几下，即可发送、消费和接收多达40种货币。

You can send, spend, and receive in up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps.

聪明一点。

Be smart.

下载Wise应用。

Get Wise.

今天就下载Wise应用，或访问wise.com。

Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com.

条款和条件适用。

Ts and cs apply.

本广告由TED Talks Daily提供，这是TED推出的播客。

This message comes from TED Talks Daily, the podcast from TED.

想知道如何自我介绍才能真正获得聘用，或者为什么人们开始说话像ChatGPT吗？

Curious how to introduce yourself so you actually get hired or why people are starting to sound like chat GPT?

关于这个，有一场TED演讲。

There's a TED Talk for that.

在你收听播客的任何平台收听《TED Talks Daily》。

Listen to TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts.

你最喜欢的NPR播客还能怎么变得更好？

How could your favorite NPR podcast get any better?

如果它有额外内容，比如更长的访谈和零广告插播呢？

Well, what if it had bonus features such as extended interviews and zero sponsor breaks?

有一个非常简单的方法，能把这个幻想变成现实。

There is a remarkably easy way to turn that fantasy into reality.

它叫做NPR Plus。

It's called NPR Plus.

你可以享受超过25个NPR播客的专属福利，同时支持制作它们的团队。

You get perks across more than 25 NPR podcasts while supporting the teams that make them.

通过访问 +.npr.org 让优秀的播客变得更出色。

Make great podcasts even greater by visiting +.npr.org.

这是来自NPR的《考虑一下》。

It's consider this from NPR.

安妮·法默是众多在法庭上就杰弗里·爱泼斯坦和吉斯莱恩·马克斯韦尔作证的人之一。

Annie Farmer is one of many people who testified in court about Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell.

她说，当她16岁时，他们对她进行了性侵，她也一直积极呼吁司法部公开所有与杰弗里·爱泼斯坦相关的文件。

She says they sexually abused her when she was 16 years old, and she's also been a leading voice in calling on the Department of Justice to release all records related to Jeffrey Epstein.

如今这些文件已经公开，我们想听听安妮·法默的看法，《考虑一下》。

Now that they're out, we wanted to hear from Annie Farmer Things considered.

谢谢你们邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

你一直公开主张公开所有文件。

You've been vocal about wanting all the documents released.

你的妹妹玛丽亚是此案最早的举报人之一。

Your sister Maria was one of the first whistleblowers in this case.

她早在1996年就向联邦调查局提交了投诉。

She made a complaint to the FBI way back in 1996.

这份投诉几十年来既未被确认，也未被调查。

It's a complaint that went unacknowledged and uninvestigated for decades.

我想知道，这次最新的、可能是最终的文件公开让你有什么感受？

I'm wondering how does this latest maybe final release make you feel?

我感到非常难过。

I'm feeling really upset.

这个周末，当我整理文件时，人们不断发给我各种材料，我才意识到，涉及受害者姓名泄露、正如你提到的，还有少女或年轻女性的裸照，这些违法事件有多少起。

I this weekend, as I was sorting through files and people were sending me things, just became aware of how many violations of the law there were in terms of victims names coming out, as you mentioned, nude photos of girls or young women.

这真的令人作呕。

It's really disgusting.

嗯。

Mhmm.

听我说。

Look.

一方面，有压力要求公开这些文件。

On one hand, there's pressure to get these documents public.

但与此同时，法律明确要求文件必须完全进行脱敏处理，而这一点并没有做到。

And at the same time, the law made clear files needed to be fully redacted, and and that didn't happen.

这些姓名和图片本不该被公布。

The names and images should never have been released.

你怎么看待这一点？

What do you make of that?

老实说，到这个地步，很难不怀疑这在某种程度上是故意的。

Honestly, at this point, it's hard not to wonder if this is intentional in some way.

这感觉像是蓄意的无能。

It feels like weaponized incompetence.

如果你看到一些文件，比如一份包含50个名字的名单，只有一个被遮盖了，那就根本无法解释为什么会处理得如此糟糕。

If if you see some of these documents where there will be a list of 50 names and one is redacted, you know, there's just no explanation for how it could have been done so poorly.

他们早就掌握了受害者的姓名。

They've had victims names for a very long time.

我不认为这只是为了急于公开这些信息。

I don't think this is just about rushing to to get this information out.

感觉他们希望我们放弃透明度，而他们处理此事的方式极其成问题。

It feels like they want us to give up on transparency, and it's extremely problematic how they've gone about doing this.

我的意思是，互联网现在如此

I mean, the Internet is such

在这个时候已经成为一种被武器化的地方。

a weaponized place at this point.

你有没有和其他处于你这种境地、一直公开谈论此事的人交流过，当名字和照片被广泛传播时，现在该怎么做？

Have you had conversations with other people who've been in your position, who've been vocal about this, about what to do at this point when when names and pictures are are are are are being circulated?

我认为很多人都感到不知所措，因为这种情况超出了我们任何人曾经担心的范围。

I think a lot of people are feeling a bit at a loss of, you know, how to best proceed because it is beyond what any of us had worried about.

但我明确的一点是，我们仍然相信透明度很重要，我们不会放弃要求相关部门遵守规定。

But what I I do feel clear about is the fact that we still believe transparency is important, and we're not giving up on demanding that the lobby followed.

我们现在讨论的是一件非常严重的问题。

What we're talking about right now is a huge concern.

从更大的角度来看，关于这次泄露的信息和新曝光的内容。

In the bigger picture in terms of the information released, the new revelations in this in this trove.

在你看来，这些信息的价值是什么？

What to you was the value of this?

你认为有什么重要的发现吗？

Do you think anything important has been learned?

你认为在事件的规模和范围方面，有什么重要的事情被进一步凸显了吗？

Do you think anything important has been underscored in terms of the the scope of what what went on?

是的。

Yes.

我觉得有几点。

I think a couple things.

第一，受害者们早已发声，并且点名了相关人员。

One, that victims have been speaking out for a long time and have been, you know, naming names.

而且，长期以来有明确的证据表明这些报告一直非常一致。

And that, you know, there's clear evidence of very consistent reports over time.

但不清楚的是，当时采取了哪些调查措施。

But what is not clear is what was done to investigate.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为，我们看到在2006年时，联邦调查人员已经试图构建一个非常有力的案件。

You know, I think we see that there was a very strong case in, you know, 2006 that was, you know, the feds were trying to put together.

而我们知道，显然，由于那份优厚的交易，事情并没有按照任何人预期的方式发展。

And we know, obviously, with that sweetheart deal, it didn't unfold the way anyone believes it should have.

但即便在那之后，你仍能看到有人分享信息的记录，而如此长时间却什么都没做，我认为这极其成问题。

But even after that, you know, you can see records of people sharing information, and that nothing was done for so long, I think is is extremely problematic.

你还能清楚地看到，爱泼斯坦与掌握权力的人、政府中的权贵之间有着多么深厚的联系，你能明显看出这张权力网络是如何保护他的。

And you also see just how deep ties were that Epstein had to people in positions of power, wealthy people in people in government, you know, you you can just see clearly how that web of power protected him.

鉴于这一切，你如何回应司法部官员称目前不太可能对任何人提出额外指控的说法？

Given all this, what is your response to Department of Justice officials saying that additional charges for anyone are unlikely at this point?

我认为，知道像弗吉尼亚·罗伯茨·舒弗雷这样的受害者早在2011年就提供了关于这些罪行范围的详细信息，这实在令人不安。

I think that it is really disturbing to know that, for example, you can see Virginia Roberts Shufray was providing detailed information about the scopes of these crimes in 2011.

你知道，有几份证词中包含了她所举报的其他人的姓名。

You know, there's depositions that include names of other individuals that she reported.

所以当他们说，没有足够信息来提起指控时，我只是想问，你们对这些信息做了什么？

So when they say, you know, the information's not there to to pursue charges, I I just I would say, you know, what did you do with this information?

能提供证据证明调查显示不应提起指控吗？

Where's the evidence of the investigation that shows charges are not warranted?

我认为这一点并不清楚。

That I think is it's not clear.

面对如此多的文件，而且它们如此混乱，很难理清究竟采取了哪些后续行动。

It's very hard, you know, with so many files and them being so disorganized to see the trail of, you know, what was done to follow-up on things.

但到目前为止，我认为我们对‘为什么’还有更多疑问。

But so far, I think we have a lot more questions about why.

去年夏天，你曾接受《晨间新闻》的采访，当时你告诉我的同事莱拉·法德尔一些话，我想再问你一遍。

You talked to Morning Edition about this last summer, and you told my colleague, Leila Faddle, something that I wanted to ask you again about.

你说，这个故事——你自己的故事——在公众视野中的演变，让你感到失去了控制，觉得自己没有被考虑或纳入其中。

You said that the evolution of this story, your story in public has left you feeling out of control, like you're not being considered or included.

我想知道，过去六个月里，这种感觉有没有发生任何变化或演变？

And I'm wondering, has that feeling changed or evolved at all for you over the past six months?

你知道，我觉得在某些时候，我个人能够主动揭露这些罪行，向他人解释它们，并指出政府的疏忽，这让我感到很有主动权。

You know, I think there have been times when, personally, I have felt a lot of agency in being able to highlight these, you know, crimes to explain them to others and to highlight the negligence of the government.

对吧？

Right?

但我觉得，像现在这样的时刻，我的个人信息——比如出生日期、电话号码之类的——被泄露，确实让我感到完全失控。

But I think, you know, a moment like this, again, you know, my my own personal information, you know, being date of birth, phone number, things like that leaking out, certainly makes me feel out of control.

但我真的为那些人感到更加难过。

But I really feel so much worse for those.

你知道，我有勇气选择站出来。

You know, I had a decision to come forward.

我知道，有很多人因为各种正当的原因选择不站出来。

And I know there's so many for lots of good reasons that chose not to come forward.

一想到因为这件事的处理方式，他们现在感到如此失控，我就觉得胃里翻江倒海。

And it I feel really sick to my stomach just thinking about the fact that because of the way this was handled, they feel so out of control right now.

是的。

Yeah.

在某些情况下，由于他们的处境，可能会感到非常不安全。

And in some cases, you know, may feel very unsafe because of their circumstances.

所以，我，嗯，现在真的在思考那些女性。

And so, I'm, yeah, I'm just really thinking about those women now.

你是一名持证治疗师。

You're a licensed therapist.

是的。

Yes.

我想知道你的专业训练是如何帮助你应对这一切的。

I'm wondering how your training has helped you navigate all of this.

我认为，这对我能够从更宏观的角度看待自己对这些事的反应至关重要。

Well, I think it's been really crucial for me in being able to sort of put into perspective my own reactions to some of this.

你知道，这个故事中存在着多层次的创伤。

You know, there's there's so many levels of trauma in this story.

这当然不仅仅是最初与爱泼斯坦和麦克斯韦相关的事情。

And it's certainly not just what happened, you know, initially with Epstein and Maxwell.

真正重要的是理解，这些机构所发生的事情，可能同样具有创伤性，甚至更具创伤性。

It's really understanding that what's happened with these institutions, it can be just as traumatizing, if not more traumatizing.

因此，我认为在幸存者之间进行这些对话，能够借鉴并分享这些信息，使之正常化，是非常有帮助的。

And so having those conversations, I think, amongst survivors, being able to draw on that and bring, some of that information and normalize that, I think has been very helpful.

鉴于你的专业背景和个人经历，我想知道，在这一切以非常公开的方式展开时，你对其他处于类似境遇的幸存者有什么建议。

Given your professional background, given your personal experience in this, I'm wondering what your advice is to to to other survivors in your situation as this all plays out in a very public way.

我认为人们必须明白，治愈和正义是两回事，这里的正义指的是政府或司法系统能带来什么。

I think that it's really important for people to understand that, you know, there is a difference between healing and justice in the sense of, you know, what can come from, you know, the government or from our our justice system.

对吧？

Right?

真正的治愈往往在于找到让你感到安全的地方，而这种安全常常来自于与他人的联结。

That really healing oftentimes is about finding your places where you feel safe, and and oftentimes that's in community with others.

因此，知道有人愿意支持你，只要你经历过这些，能够说出真相、表达出来并找到属于你的群体，是迈向你应得的治愈的重要一步。

And so knowing that, you know, there are people that want to support you if you've been through this, being able to name it and speak it and find your people is such an important step towards finding the healing that you deserve.

那是安妮·法默。

That's Annie Farmer.

非常感谢你和我们交谈。

Thank you so much for talking to us.

谢谢。

Thank you.

本集由贾纳基·梅塔和凯伦·扎莫拉制作。

This episode was produced by Janaki Mehta and Karen Zamora.

由萨拉·汉德尔剪辑。

It was edited by Sarah Handel.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这是NPR的《就此而言》。

It's Consider This from NPR.

我是斯科特·迪特鲁。

I'm Scott Detreau.

今年的格莱美奖见证了巴德·邦尼和肯德里克·拉马尔的历史性获奖、奢华的表演以及偶尔的混乱，这是一个反映美国当下时刻的演讲之夜。

This year's Grammys featured historic wins for Bad Bunny and Kendrick Lamar, lavish performances, and occasional chaos, and it was a night of speeches that reflected this moment in America.

请在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台收听流行文化欢乐时光的回顾。

Listen to a recap on pop culture happy hour in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

在《星球金钱》节目中，我们已经探讨过许多话题。

On Planet Money, we have covered a lot of topics.

比如，你试着在互联网上搜索某个主题，然后在后面加上‘星球金钱’。

Like, just try searching something on the Internet and adding Planet Money to the end of it.

关税价格，星球金钱，那是一期节目。

Tariff prices, Planet Money, that's an episode.

停车标志之争，星球金钱，这也是其中一期。

Stop sign war, Planet Money, that too.

阿拉斯加比目鱼大赛，星球金钱。

Alaska halibut derby, planet money.

只要你能问出来，我们大概已经回答过了。

If you can ask it, we have probably answered it.

《Planet Money》请在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台收听。

Planet Money, listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

你有没有过这样的感觉：不管睡了多少小时，还是觉得疲惫？

Do you ever feel like no matter how many hours of sleep you got, you're still fatigued?

我们必须能够区分睡眠与其他各种休息方式。

We have to be able to differentiate sleep from the different ways that we can rest.

在《Life Kid》播客中，探讨了七种休息方式以及为何每一种都对过上充实健康的生活至关重要。

On the Life Kid Podcast, the seven types of rest and why each one is important to living a full, healthy life.

请在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台收听《Life Kid》播客。

Listen to the Life Kid Podcast in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.