美国起诉马杜罗，这对世界其他地区意味着什么？

就在几天前还看似虚构的场景中，委内瑞拉的尼古拉斯·马杜罗与其妻子西莉亚·弗洛雷斯于周一下午站在曼哈顿法庭的美国法官面前。

In a scene that would have sounded like fiction just a few days ago, Venezuela's Nicolas Maduro, along with his wife, Celia Flores, stood before a US judge in a Manhattan courtroom Monday afternoon.

现场既无录音也无影像，但美国国家公共电台的贾斯敏·加斯特见证了这一时刻。

There was no audio and no pictures, but NPR's Jasmine Garst was there to witness the moment.

临近结束时，当马杜罗正要离开，一名公众突然站起来说：'你将代表委内瑞拉人民付出代价。'

Towards the end, as Maduro was walking out, a member of the public stood up and said, You are going to pay in the name of the Venezuelan people.

马杜罗转身回应：'我是上帝的子民。'

Maduro turned around and said, I am a man of God.

马杜罗对毒品恐怖主义阴谋、可卡因进口阴谋及武器指控均表示不认罪。

Maduro pleaded not guilty to charges of narcoterrorism conspiracy, cocaine importation conspiracy, and weapons charges.

他的下一次听证会将在两个多月后举行。

His next hearing is more than two months from now.

经过数月美国对该地区船只的打击、不断变化的理由以及日益紧张的局势，这位委内瑞拉前领导人及其妻子于上周末被从加拉加斯带离。

After months of US strikes on boats in the region, shifting rationalizations, and increasing tensions, the now former head of Venezuela and his wife were extracted from Caracas over the weekend.

这次秘密行动令许多委内瑞拉人震惊不已。

The covert operation left many Venezuelans reeling.

这也让全世界都在思考接下来会发生什么。

It's also left the world wondering what comes next.

特朗普总统周日晚上在空军一号上向随行记者透露的或许不止是一个暗示——剧透警告：特朗普政府的关注点远不止委内瑞拉。

President Trump may have given more than a hint to reporters who rode with him on Air Force one Sunday night, and spoiler alert, the Trump administration is focused on more than just Venezuela.

哥伦比亚的情况也很糟糕，由一个喜欢制造可卡因并贩卖到美国的病态之人统治，但他不会在这个位置上待太久。

Colombia is very sick too, run by a sick man who likes making cocaine and selling it to The United States, and he's not gonna be doing it very long.

让我告诉你

Let me tell

总统还向记者们提起了他对格陵兰岛长期以来的兴趣。

The president also reminded reporters about his long standing interest in Greenland.

现在格陵兰岛到处都是俄罗斯和中国的船只。

Right now, Greenland is covered with Russian and Chinese ships all over the place.

从国家安全的角度考虑，我们需要格陵兰岛。

We need Greenland from the standpoint of national security.

试想一下：当尼古拉斯·马杜罗在美国面临毒品恐怖主义指控时，委内瑞拉人正在试图理解这对他们的未来意味着什么，而世界其他国家也在思考这对他们自身可能意味着什么。

Consider this, as Nicolas Maduro faces narcoterrorism charges in The US, Venezuelans try to figure out what it means for their future, and the rest of the world wonders what it can mean for theirs.

这里是NPR，我是胡安娜·萨默斯。

From NPR, I'm Juana Summers.

本信息由Wise提供，这是一款为全球用户提供国际资金服务的应用。

This message comes from Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe.

只需轻点几下，您就能在多达40种货币间进行发送、消费和收款。

You can send, spend, and receive in up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps.

明智之选。

Be smart.

选择Wise。

Get Wise.

立即下载Wise应用或访问wise.com。

Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com.

适用条款与条件。

Ts and Cs apply.

公共媒体的发展离不开您的支持，以确保您所依赖的新闻报道和节目持续繁荣。

Public media counts on your support to ensure that the reporting and programs you depend on thrive.

立即进行定期捐赠，即可独家获取超过20档NPR播客节目。

Make a recurring donation today to get special access to more than 20 NPR podcasts.

享受无广告收听、额外剧集、抢先体验等专属福利。

Perks like sponsor free listening, bonus episodes, early access, and more.

即刻登录+.npr.org，支持您喜爱的内容。

So start supporting what you love today at +.npr.org.

网飞《怪奇物语》已迎来最终季，我们将为您解析本季最震撼的精彩瞬间。

Netflix's stranger things has reached its end, and we're unpacking the biggest moments in the final season.

我们将讨论对结局的看法，我们的英雄最后一次与邪恶势力作战时发生了什么，当然还有那些糟糕的假发。

We'll talk about what we thought of the finale, what happened to our heroes when they set out to battle the forces of evil one last time, and, of course, the terrible wigs.

请在NPR应用或你获取播客的任何平台收听《流行文化欢乐时光》。

Listen to pop culture happy hour in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

这里是NPR的《Consider This》节目。

It's Consider This from NPR.

我们将审视美国在委内瑞拉的行为如何被海外看待，首先从马杜罗政权的盟友俄罗斯开始。

We're taking a look at how The US's actions in Venezuela are being viewed abroad, starting off with Russia, an ally of the Maduro regime.

NPR的查尔斯·梅恩斯在莫斯科，他将为我们解读俄罗斯对此事的立场。

NPR's Charles Maines is in Moscow and is here to talk about Russia's stance on all of this.

你好。

Hi there.

你好。

Hi there.

查尔斯，我们先从莫斯科对美国袭击及逮捕尼古拉斯·马杜罗的正式回应说起。

Charles, let's start with Moscow's formal response to The US attacks and the arrest of Nicolas Maduro.

他们怎么说？

What are they saying?

我们尚未听到俄罗斯总统弗拉基米尔·普京的回应，至少目前还没有。

Well, we haven't heard from Russian president Vladimir Putin, at least not yet.

这里正值东正教圣诞节期间，普京今天没有就委内瑞拉发表评论，而是通过电话给孩子们颁发礼物。

It's just about Orthodox Christmas here, and instead of commenting on Venezuela, Putin today was awarding gifts to kids, by phone.

俄罗斯外交部已发表声明，称特朗普政府对委内瑞拉采取行动的借口毫无根据。

Now his foreign ministry has issued a statement calling the Trump administration's pretext for attacking Venezuela unfounded.

他们要求美国释放马杜罗，称这是对委内瑞拉主权不可接受的侵犯。

They're demanding Maduro's release from US custody, saying it was an unacceptable assault on Venezuela's sovereignty.

莫斯科方面正在表达愤怒，但这只是口头表态。在针对马杜罗政权长达数月的施压行动中，俄罗斯并未采取更强硬的措施挑战特朗普政府。

So Moscow is expressing outrage, but it's just that, an expression, words, you know, put Russia stop short of challenging the Trump administration more forcefully amid this months long, pressure campaign against the Maduro regime.

事实上，据报道克里姆林宫去年秋天拒绝了马杜罗提出的直接军事援助请求。

In fact, the Kremlin reportedly rebuffed a request by Maduro for, direct military assistance in the fall.

原因似乎是莫斯科希望维持与特朗普的良好关系，试图影响其在乌克兰和平协议上的立场。

And the reason, it seems, was Moscow's desire to main maintain good relations with Trump as it tried to sway him over any peace deal for Ukraine.

当然还有一个事实：由于那场战争，莫斯科现在没有太多军事装备可以外援，即使是对盟友也是如此。

And, of course, there's also the fact that because of that war, Moscow doesn't have that much military equipment to hand out, not even to its friends.

说到盟友，查尔斯，请为我们回顾一下俄罗斯与委内瑞拉关系的本质。

And speaking of friends, Charles, remind us of the nature of the relationship between Russia and Venezuela.

冷战期间两国关系并不密切，但随着委内瑞拉革命带来马杜罗的前任乌戈·查韦斯在世纪之交掌权，情况发生了变化——顺便说句，那时普京也刚入主克里姆林宫。

Well, they weren't that close during the Cold War, but that changed with the revolution in Venezuela that brought Maduro's predecessor, Yugo Chavez, to power near the turn of the millennium, a time, by the way, when Vladimir Putin also happened to show up in the Kremlin.

因此在很短时间内，委内瑞拉就成为俄罗斯在拉丁美洲最重要的贸易伙伴和军事盟友。

So in pretty short order, Venezuela becomes Russia's most important trading partner and military ally in Latin America.

石油一直是这一关系的核心，但共同的外交政策目标同样重要，特别是在对抗美国全球影响力方面。

Oil was always the center of that, but so too were shared foreign policy goals, particularly when it came to countering US influence on the global stage.

我们刚才讨论了官方反应。

So we've talked about the official response.

但俄罗斯民众呢？

But what about the Russian people?

他们对美国在委内瑞拉的行动有何反应？

What has been their response to US actions in Venezuela?

是的。

Yeah.

要知道，这是俄罗斯近期在盟友问题上遭遇的一系列外交挫折的最新一例，尤其是国内的民族主义者对此反应激烈。

You know, this is the latest in a string of recent foreign policy setbacks for Russia concerning its allies, and nationalists in particular here have been angry and loud about it.

2024年叙利亚阿萨德政权垮台时，

There was the collapse of the Assad regime in Syria in 2024.

记得吗，独裁者巴沙尔·阿萨德随后逃往了俄罗斯。

If you remember, the dictator Bashar al Assad fled to Russia in the aftermath.

今年夏天美国还对伊朗这个盟友发动了空袭，当然，特朗普也持续对伊朗政权发出威胁。

There were these US airstrikes against Iran, another ally over the summer, and, of course, Trump continues to threaten the Iranian regime.

然而就像在委内瑞拉一样，莫斯科基本上选择了袖手旁观。

And yet, like in Venezuela, Moscow's basically stood aside.

与此同时，美国对委内瑞拉的这次袭击、马杜罗的被捕，看起来就像是克里姆林宫2022年对乌克兰军事行动的一个更自信版本。

Meanwhile, this US attack on Venezuela, the capture of Maduro, you know, sure looks like a more confident version of the military operation the Kremlin launched against Ukraine in 2022.

所以这里确实存在某种嫉妒心理。

So so there's some envy here.

这是普京前演讲稿撰写人、现流亡批评人士阿巴斯·甘亚莫夫向我提出的观点。

A point raised to me by Abbas Ganyamov, a former speechwriter for Putin who's now a critic in exile.

特朗普对马杜罗做的事，其实普京本该对泽连斯基做的。

What Trump did to Maduro, actually, Putin should have done to Zelenskyy.

特朗普仅用半小时就解决了问题。

Trump solved the problem within just half an hour.

普京至今仍在人员伤亡、资金消耗和制裁中承受巨大痛苦，且离成功还遥遥无期。

Putin is still going through painful and big expenses in people, in money, in sanctions, and he is far from being successful.

所以这里确实提出了一些尖锐的问题。

So there's some hard questions here being asked.

这对普京的形象最终会造成多大的损害？

How damaging is this ultimately to Putin's image?

普京在国内虽无人挑战，但这无助于维护他作为全球舞台上即便不被尊重至少也被畏惧的领导人形象。

Well, Putin is unchallenged at home, but it doesn't exactly serve his image as a leader who is, if not respected, then at least feared on the global stage.

这也损害了普京在盟友中的声誉——坦白说其中许多是专制者——他们可能在想自己是否会是特朗普名单上的下一个目标。

You know, it also dents Putin's reputation among allies, many of them autocrats, frankly, who may be wondering if they're next on Trump's list.

另一方面，特朗普为其在委内瑞拉行动辩护的理由，与普京入侵乌克兰的借口惊人地一致。

On the other hand, Trump's rationale for his actions in Venezuela, you know, they sound awfully in tune with Putin's own justification for the invasion of Ukraine.

可以说，这正当化了俄罗斯在维护其势力范围时'强权即公理'的做法。

And arguably, that legitimizes Russia's might makes right approach when it comes to securing its own backyard.

因此所有这些都可能产生双面效果。

So all of this can really cut both ways.

这里是NPR驻莫斯科记者查尔斯·梅恩斯。

NPR's Charles Maines in Moscow.

谢谢。

Thanks.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

NPR的米歇尔·凯勒曼在以色列报道，美国在委内瑞拉的军事行动受到欢迎，人们希望这能成为对伊朗施加压力的另一个支点——伊朗已经因经济问题面临街头抗议。

NPR's Michelle Kellerman is in Israel, where The US military operation in Venezuela was welcomed with the hope that this could be another pressure point on Iran, which is already facing street protests over the economy.

伊朗及其代理人真主党与尼古拉斯·马杜罗政府有着深厚联系。

Iran and one of its proxies, Hezbollah, had deep ties with Nicolas Maduro's government.

NPR的米歇尔·卡拉曼报道了此事对中东地区的潜在影响。

NPR's Michelle Kalaman reports on the potential impact on The Middle East.

赖希曼大学教授梅尔·贾维丹法尔一直紧盯着社交媒体，从他现在居住的特拉维夫关注着出生地伊朗的抗议运动。

Reichman University professor Mayer Javedanfar has been glued to social media, watching the protest movement in Iran, where he was born, from Tel Aviv, where he lives now.

我们在其住所附近的咖啡馆见面。

We meet in a cafe near his home.

对伊朗裔以色列人来说，这是个非常特殊的时期。

It's a very special time to be Iranian Israeli.

我在德黑兰的伊朗同胞们正冒着生命危险走上街头，为争取民主而斗争。

My Iranian compatriots in Tehran are risking their life and going to the streets to fight to have to have democracy.

与此同时，我和许多以色列同胞每周都去抗议，以维护我们正受到现任政府威胁的自由民主制度。

And meanwhile, me and my many of my Israeli compatriots are going every week to protest to maintain our liberal democracy, which is under threat from the current government.

尽管他对总理本杰明·内塔尼亚胡的国内政策持批评态度，贾韦丹法尔支持以色列对伊朗的强硬立场。

But while he's a critic of prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu's domestic policies, Javedanfar backs Israel's tough position on Iran.

他认为在委内瑞拉的军事行动可能会给伊朗政权施加更大压力。

And he thinks the operation in Venezuela could add more pressure on the Iranian regime.

他指出，伊朗支持的黎巴嫩激进组织真主党通过从委内瑞拉到欧洲的毒品交易获利，这意味着近年来他们对伊朗援助的依赖有所减少。

He says the Iranian backed Lebanese militant group Hezbollah made money in the drug trade from Venezuela to Europe, which meant it relied a bit less on Iranian handouts in recent years.

这种情况将会结束。

That's gonna go.

-1,

I don't think

.

the Americans are gonna stand for it.

这意味着真主党现在将更加依赖伊朗的收入来源。

So that means that Hezbollah is now going to become even more dependent on Iran for its income.

我认为这对伊朗经济来说是一个非常危险的时期。

And I think this comes at a very precarious time for Iran's economy.

而伊朗的抗议运动完全与经济问题有关。

And the protest movement in Iran is all about the economy.

伊朗经济已经病入膏肓。

The Iranian economy is so maligned.

它已经病得如此严重。

It is so sick.

通货膨胀问题让经济彻底瘫痪，即使当前抗议活动结束，问题也无法解决。

It is so bedridden with the problem of inflation that even if the current protests end, it's not going to solve it.

流亡海外的伊朗人担心在世界关注委内瑞拉时，国内抗议者会遭到镇压。

Iranians in exile are worried about crackdown on protesters while the world is focusing on Venezuela.

特朗普总统警告伊朗，如果伊朗杀害和平抗议者，美国已'子弹上膛，随时准备行动'。

President Trump has warned Iran that The US is, quote, locked and loaded if the Iranians kill peaceful protesters.

以色列总理本杰明·内塔尼亚胡刚从与特朗普的会晤归来，他表示认为伊朗人民正在将命运掌握在自己手中。

Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu just back from a meeting with Trump says he thinks the Iranian people are taking their fate in their own hands.

他的发言人沙什·贝德罗西安表示，内塔尼亚胡对在委内瑞拉针对马杜罗的行动也感到满意。

His spokesperson, Shash Bedrosian, says Netanyahu was also pleased with the operation to aus Maduro in Venezuela.

外交部实际上已表示，委内瑞拉已经破坏了该地区的稳定，充当真主党恐怖分子的基地，并设有伊朗武器生产设施。

The foreign ministry has actually said that Venezuela has destabilized the region there, serving as a base for Hezbollah terror operatives, and hosting Iranian weapons production facilities.

但她不愿透露以色列是否已从特朗普政府或马杜罗政权的残余势力那里获得任何保证，表示他们将与伊朗断绝关系。

But she wouldn't say if Israel has been given any assurances from the Trump administration or from the remnants of the Maduro regime that they will break ranks with Iran.

国务卿马可·鲁比奥也不愿描述他与委内瑞拉人关于此事的对话，但他告诉NBC的《会见新闻界》节目，美国期望委内瑞拉停止与真主党和伊朗的亲密关系。

Secretary of state Marco Rubio also wouldn't describe his conversations about this with the Venezuelans, but he told NBC's Meet the Press that The US expects Venezuela to stop cozying up to Hezbollah and Iran.

你不能把委内瑞拉变成伊朗、俄罗斯、真主党、中国以及控制该国的古巴情报人员的行动中心。

You can't turn Venezuela into the operating hub for Iran, for Russia, for Hezbollah, for China, for the for the Cuban intelligence agents that control that country.

这种情况不能再继续下去了。

That cannot continue.

真主党、哈马斯和伊朗等谴责美国在委内瑞拉的军事行动以及他们所谓的绑架马杜罗总统的行为。

Hezbollah, Hamas, and Iran are among those condemning The US military action in Venezuela and what they call a kidnapping of president Maduro.

真主党声明指责美国采取"霸权、傲慢及海盗式"的世界政策以支持其代理人以色列。

Hezbollah's statement accused The US of, quote, a hegemonic, arrogant, and piracy driven approach to the world in support of its protege, Israel.

美国驻以色列大使迈克·赫卡比表示，推翻马杜罗对远隔半个地球的中东地区是好消息。

The US ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, says taking down Maduro is good news for The Middle East, half a world away.

NPR新闻台特拉维夫记者米歇尔·凯勒曼报道。

Michelle Kellerman, NPR News Tel Aviv.

本期节目由梅根·林、丹尼尔·奥夫曼和迈克尔·莱维特制作，音频工程由泰德·米班和蒂芙尼·维拉卡斯特罗负责。

This episode was produced by Megan Lim, Daniel Offman, and Michael Levitt with audio engineering by Ted Mibane and Tiffany Veracastro.

编辑工作由迪迪·斯坎基、詹姆斯·海德和考特尼·多林完成。

It was edited by Didi Skanky, James Haider, and Courtney Doring.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·耶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这里是NPR的《Consider This》节目。

It's Consider This from NPR.

我是胡安娜·萨默斯。

I'm Juana Summers.