白宫持续解雇移民法官。他是其中一员。

嘿，你好。

Hey there.

我是Elsa Chang。

It's Elsa Chang.

邮件可能已经发到你的收件箱了，但在节目开始前简单说几句。

The emails have probably already hit your inbox, but real quick before we start the show.

今天是‘捐赠星期二’。

Today is Giving Tuesday.

感谢你们在这个对我们来说相当艰难的年份里支持NPR，当时我们失去了公共媒体的联邦资助。

Thank you if you have already stepped up to support NPR during a pretty difficult year for us when we saw the loss of federal funding for public media.

你们中有很多人，比如亚利桑那州的Shane说：‘大多数日子里，我早上第一件事就是听Up First或者考虑这个节目。’

There are so many of you, like Shane in Arizona, who says, quote, most days I listen to Up First and or consider this first thing in the morning.

多年来我一直享受这些内容却没有捐赠过。

I have enjoyed this content for years now without donating.

但既然我的税款不再支持它，我必须尽自己的一份力来支持独立新闻。

But as my tax dollars no longer support it, I must do my part to support independent journalism.

非常感谢Shane能意识到这一点，也感谢各位听众，无论您已经捐赠还是NPR Plus的订阅用户。

Thank you so much, Shane, for coming to that realization, and thank you listener if you've already made your gift or if you are an NPR Plus supporter.

如果尚未行动，请立即在捐赠星期二献出您的爱心并完成注册。

If not, make your Giving Tuesday gift right now and sign up.

NPR Plus是一项简单的定期捐赠计划，您不仅能享受NPR播客的专属福利，还能在收听时支持公共媒体。

NPR Plus is a simple recurring donation that gets you perks to NPR's podcasts, and you'll be supporting public media while you listen.

请访问plus.npr.org加入我们。

Join us at plus.npr.org.

现在进入今天的节目内容。

And now to today's episode.

最近对多位移民法官而言，他们的离职日听起来都出奇相似。

For several immigration judges these days, their last day on the job sounds pretty similar.

我收到了那封邮件。

I received the email.

当时我整个人愣住了，反复读了好几遍才消化这个消息。

You know, I kind of froze for a moment, read it multiple times, took it in.

我的声音在颤抖。

My voice was shaking.

我的手在颤抖。

My hands were shaking.

我的思绪纷乱。

My mind was racing.

然后，我做出了决定，没有提及任何事，直接宣布所有人退庭。

And, I I gave the decision, and I, dismissed everyone without mentioning anything.

当时我的法庭里大约有30到40名移民。

I had about, you know, 30 or 40 immigrants in my courtroom.

国土安全部的人在场。

I had DHS.

还有法庭工作人员。

I had, court staff.

我当时正在审判席上，记录在案。

I was on the bench, on the record.

我刚向所有人解释完他们的权利与责任。

I had just finished, explaining all to the group, like, their rights and responsibilities.

当时法庭上与我一起的翻译，他参与过许多场我主持的听证会，突然就开始哭了。

The interpreter who was in the courtroom with me, he had been in many hearings with me, and he just started crying.

他说，我无法相信这正在发生。

And he said, I can't believe this is happening.

这些是前移民法官：弗吉尼亚州的安娜姆·佩蒂特、俄亥俄州的塔尼娅·尼默，以及加利福尼亚州的凯拉·莉莲。

Those were former immigration judges, Anam Petit in Virginia, Tanya Neemer in Ohio, and Keira Lillian from California.

他们是今年被特朗普政府解雇的越来越多的移民法官中的几位。

They are among a growing number of immigration judges that have been fired by the Trump administration this year.

这些法官正被所谓的'驱逐法官'所取代。

Those judges are being replaced by, quote, deportation judges.

这些变更是白宫全面改革美国移民制度的持续努力的一部分。

The changes are part of an ongoing effort by the White House to overhaul The US immigration system.

这些法官对自己被解雇的原因有所猜测，但没有人被告知真正的原因。

These judges speculate as to why they were let go, but no one was given a reason for why they were actually let go.

这是莉莉安的再次发言。

Here's Lillian again.

任何曾在其职业生涯中为非法移民辩护过的人，似乎都因此留下了无法抹去的污点，导致他们被解雇。

Anyone who ever represented a noncitizen at any point in their lives, that seems to be the indelible stain that got them fired.

美国司法部下属负责管理移民法官的机构在给NPR的一份声明中表示，如果法官表现出'系统性偏见'，那么该机构可以'采取行动以维护其系统的公正性'。

In a statement to NPR, the agency within the DOJ that oversees immigration judges says that if a judge shows, quote, systematic bias, then the agency can, quote, take action to preserve the integrity of its system.

想想这个情况。

Consider this.

约有140名移民法官已被解雇或辞职。

About a 140 immigration judges have been fired or have resigned.

与此同时，积压案件数量正在增加。

Meanwhile, the case backlog is growing.

这对身处其中的移民意味着什么？

What does it mean for immigrants caught in the middle?

接下来，我们将采访一位近期被解职的法官。

Coming up, we speak with one of the judges recently let go.

这里是NPR，我是Elsa Chang。

From NPR, I'm Elsa Chang.

嘿。

Hey.

嘿。

Hey.

我是《It's Been a Minute》的Britney Luce。

It's Britney Luce from It's Been a Minute.

您的语音信箱已满。

Your voice mailbox is full.

好吧。

Okay.

我承认。

I'll admit it.

我的也是。

So is mine.

所以我在这里给你留了这个消息。

So I'm leaving this for you here.

我想感谢你今年对NPR的支持。

I wanted to say thank you for supporting NPR this year.

如果你还没捐款，现在还不晚。

And if you haven't given yet, it's not too late.

方便时给我回个电话。

Give me a callback when you can.

请访问donate.npr.org。

Visit donate.npr.org.

今年对电视、电影和音乐来说都是精彩的一年，我们正在精选最佳中的最佳，包括K-pop恶魔猎人、罪人和《离职》。

It's been a great year for TV, movies, and music, and we are highlighting the best of the best, including K pop demon hunters, sinners, and severance.

我们将聊聊今年最爱的瞬间，包括你可能错过的一些最佳流行文化。

We're talking about our favorite moments of the year, including some of the best pop culture you might have missed.

请在NPR应用或你获取播客的任何平台收听《流行文化欢乐时光》。

Listen to pop culture happy hour in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

本周在NPR的晨间新闻播客《Up First》中，随着我们了解更多关于特朗普政府对涉嫌毒品船只致命打击的信息，两党参议员都提出了疑问。

This week on Up First, NPR's morning news podcast, as we learn more about the Trump administration's deadly strikes against alleged drug boats, senators from both parties have questions.

他们能否得到答案？

Will they get answers?

我们将持续为您更新，同时我们也在关注总统斡旋俄罗斯与乌克兰和平协议的最新进展。

We'll keep you updated, and we're following the latest efforts by the president to broker a peace deal between Russia and Ukraine.

收听《Up First》，获取开启一天所需的重要资讯。

Listen to Up First for what you need to know to start your day.

这里是NPR的《Consider This》节目。

It's Consider This from NPR.

移民法官有些特殊。

Immigration judges are a bit different.

他们在司法部的行政部门工作，而非司法分支，这意味着他们并不独立于总统。

They work inside the executive branch at the Department of Justice, not the judiciary branch, meaning they're not independent from the president.

他们代表着移民争取留在美国的最后机会。

And they represent the last chance for immigrants to argue why they should stay in The United States.

但目前美国移民法官的数量正在减少。

But now the number of immigration judges in The US is dropping.

过去两周内，特朗普政府已解雇了超过10名法官。

In the last two weeks, the Trump administration has fired more than 10 judges.

现在与我一同讨论此事的嘉宾是杰里迈亚·约翰逊。

Joining me now to talk about this is Jeremiah Johnson.

他就是其中一位在感恩节前夕刚被解雇的法官。

He's one of those judges who was recently fired just before Thanksgiving.

欢迎您，约翰逊法官。

Welcome, judge Johnson.

谢谢邀请。

Thank you for having me.

我想先了解您个人的遭遇。

So I just wanna start with what happened to you personally.

您是如何收到解雇通知的？

How were you notified of your firing?

那么，他们是否提供了任何解雇你的理由？

And and were you provided any explanation for why you're being let go?

当时我正与我的ACIJ——我的移民法官主管开会，一位法律助理经过并告诉我们有法官被解雇了。

I was actually in a meeting with my ACIJ, my supervisor immigration judge, when a legal assistant had walked by and told us that judges were being fired.

当时我并不知道具体是谁被解雇了。嗯。

I wasn't told of who at that exact time Mhmm.

或者说，起初不是我，但后来我回到办公室，打开邮箱，发现我就是被解雇的法官之一。

Or, wasn't myself, but then I ended up down in my chambers later on, turned on my email, found out that I was one of the judges who had been fired.

所以我通过邮件收到了通知。

So I was notified via email.

之后不久，我甚至还没来得及打印那封信，就被系统锁定了。

And shortly thereafter, without the even the ability to print that letter, I was locked out of the system.

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

那封邮件有解释为什么解雇你吗？

And did that email explain why you're being fired?

根据宪法第二条，司法部长决定解除我的职务。

Pursuant to article two of the constitution, the attorney general had decided to remove me from my position.

这是给出的唯一解释。

That was the only explanation given.

而且连一句谢谢也没有。

And no thank you either.

NPR最近分析了截至11月初被解雇的约70名法官的职业背景。

Well, NPR recently analyzed the professional background of some 70 judges who were fired through early November.

我们发现，仅有移民辩护工作经验的法官被解雇的比例远高于仅有国土安全部工作经验的法官。

And we found that judges who only had work experience defending immigrants were fired at a much greater rate than those who only had experience working for the Department of Homeland Security.

我很好奇你如何看待这些数据？

I'm curious what do you make of that data?

在我看来，被解雇的移民法官都具备移民法相关经验。

It appears to me that the immigration judges who are being fired have experience in immigration law.

他们是专业的法官，精通移民法律和政策。

They're professional judges, experts in immigration law and policy.

过去的招聘趋势确实更倾向于国土安全部的检察官等人。嗯。

There were hiring trends in the past that favored Department of Homeland Security prosecutors and others Mhmm.

相较于那些从事驱逐辩护的人，所以也许招聘时机与此有关。

Over those with removal defense, so maybe the timing of the hiring may had something to do with that.

但我知道我被解雇那天，我的一些同事也有国土安全部的工作背景。

But I do know when I was fired on the day I was fired, colleagues of mine also had a background in Department of Homeland Security.

所以你会在所有法官——专业法官中看到这种情况，他们背景各异。

So you see this among all judges, professional judges, different backgrounds.

这种趋势让我感到不安，但我不确定这是否就是原因，因为司法部长没有给出理由，只是表示这是她的解职决定。

And so that trend gives me pause, but I'm not certain that's the reason because the attorney general gave no reason, just indicated that it was in her decision to remove.

需要说明的是，针对我刚才引用的NPR报道，司法部回应称'不会基于过往经历以任何方式针对或优先考虑移民法官的人事决定'。

Well, we should note that in response to that NPR reporting I just cited, the Department of Justice told us, quote, it does not target or prioritize immigration judges for any personnel decision one way or the other based on prior experience.

那么我想问你，这与你所见所闻——与你刚才描述的情况相符吗？

So let me ask you, does that square with what you're seeing, what you're you've just described?

我认为你看到的是，有经验的移民法官正成为目标或被解雇。

What I think you're seeing is that immigration judges with experience are being targeted or being fired.

是指移民辩护还是移民起诉方面的经验？

Experience as to either immigration defense or immigration prosecution?

不是。

No.

是作为移民法官本身的经验。

As immigration judges themselves.

首先，你会看到那些在法官席上经历两年试用期的人被解雇。

First, you saw people being fired who had two years probation on the bench.

现在你又看到其他在法律领域有经验的法官——就在我们被解雇的同一天，国土安全部还在发布招聘驱逐法官的广告。

Now you're seeing other judges who have experience in the law in the same day that we were fired, you have ads promoted by the Department of Homeland Security for deportation judges.

所以我认为你看到的是对法官群体本身、对整个法院系统的攻击。

So what I think you're seeing is an attack on judges themselves, the court system themselves.

我正想问你，你认为这些离职会带来什么代价？因为今年年初时大约有700名移民法官。

I was just gonna ask you what you think the cost of these departures will be because there were about 700 immigration judges at the start of this year.

而根据移民法官工会和NPR的报道，自那以来已有约140名法官被解雇或辞职。

And since then, about a 140 of them have been fired or have resigned according to the immigration judges union and NPR reporting.

移民法庭系统是否已达到崩溃临界点？

Is the immigration court system at a breaking point?

还没到崩溃点。

Not at a breaking point.

我会说是一个警戒点。

I would say a warning point.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我对未来仍保持乐观，因为法律规定驱逐程序必须由移民法官执行。

I do remain optimistic in the future because it is in the law that removal proceedings shall be conducted by immigration judges.

移民法官仍在任。

Immigration judges are still on the bench.

我认为国会需要向部门提出这些问题。

I think congress needs to be asking those points to the department.

我认为美国纳税人也应该提出这些疑问。

I think the American taxpayer, should also be asking those questions.

目前积压了大量需要审理的案件。

There are currently a very large backlog of cases that need to be heard.

数百万件案子。

Millions of cases.

那么，我想问，有哪些可能的解决方案能帮助处理这些积压案件？

So, I mean, what are some possible solutions that could help get through that backlog?

建立一个独立的移民法庭，增加人员配备，加大对移民法庭的投入。

Creating an independent immigration court, hiring more, investing in immigration courts.

目前的情况是，几乎是在通过雇佣临时移民法官或重新调配军事人员来缩减开支，尽管国家移民法官协会和移民法官们很感谢这些援助。

Right now, you're seeing a divesture almost hiring temporary immigration judges or reallocating military personnel while the NIJ and immigration judges appreciate the help.

我们希望确保这些人具备资质，并接受适当的培训和积累经验。

We wanna make sure that those people are qualified and receive the proper training and experience.

因此我认为前进的道路是有的，那就是对移民法庭进行投资，但目前我们并未看到这样的举措。

So I think there is a way forward, and that's with investment in the immigration courts, and we're not seeing that right now.

但请允许我提出质疑，考虑到如此庞大的案件积压，为何特朗普政府解雇法官并聘用新人的做法不值得一试？

But if I may push back, I mean, given this massive backlog of cases, why isn't the Trump administration's approach this approach of firing judges and hiring new ones worth trying?

嗯，他们并没有在招聘。

Well, they're not hiring.

我们看到了一些临时的移民法官，而政府还降低了聘用这些移民法官的标准。

We saw a number of temporary immigration judges, and the administration also then has lowered the standards for hiring those immigration judges.

移民法官的数量并未得到补充。

There has not been a replacement of the number of immigration judges.

所以我认为你并没有看到对移民法院的投资。

So I don't think you see the investment in immigration courts.

不仅仅是这届政府如此。

It's not just this in administration.

这是对该系统长期以来的忽视，需要纠正。

It has been an ongoing neglect of the system, that needs to be righted.

那么，回到你被解雇的问题，你手头所有的移民案件会怎么处理？

Well, to return to your own firing, what happens to all of the immigration cases that were on your desk?

它们会被立即重新分配吗？

They just get instantly reassigned?

据我所知，这些案件会被重新分配。

They are reassigned is my understanding.

当时我被系统拒之门外，所以我没有任何信息可以提供。

I was shut out the system at that time, so I I don't have any input.

但我知道被解雇当天早上，我正在审理之前由另一位被解雇的移民法官处理的案件。

But I do know the morning that I was fired, I was hearing cases, previously heard by another immigration judge who had been fired.

哦，就是审理这类案件。

Oh, hearing those type cases.

所以多米诺骨牌效应还在继续。

So the domino effect continues.

你的案件现在被重新分配给已经不堪重负的法官们了。

Yours your cases have been reassigned to now even more overburdened judges.

而且我不仅负责旧金山的案件量。

And I was handling not only my docket in San Francisco.

我还被分配了拘留案件，所以工作量翻倍了。

I had been assigned a detained docket, so I was doubling up my docket.

因此，我每天都要审理来自亚利桑那州的拘留人员案件，包括本周本应作出裁决的国家安全案件，但这些案件要么无法得到审理，要么无法由原审法官按时裁决。

So every day, I was hearing cases from, Arizona of persons being detained, including national security cases that were ready for decisions, this week, but are not going to be heard or not going to be decided on time by the judge that heard the case.

所以我认为，这种做法是行不通的。

So I see, the approach is not working.

你是说，你认为特朗普政府近期解雇大量法官的行为，只会加剧本就严重的案件积压问题吗？

Are you saying that you believe the Trump administration's recent firing of so many judges is only exacerbating the already big problem of backlogs of cases?

是的。

Yes.

但能否请你用非常人性化的语言告诉我们，当移民案件积压如山、数以百万计时，对那些案件因等待法官审理而逐渐被搁置的个人意味着什么？

But can you just put in very human terms for us, when there is a massive backlog of immigration cases of millions of immigration cases, what does that mean for the individual whose case is just withering away waiting for a judge to consider it?

他们陷入了法律上的悬而未决状态，这不仅影响法庭程序，也让他们的个人生活陷入停滞。

They're left in in legal limbo, which isn't which not just before the courts, but their personal lives are placed on hold.

这些人中，大多数案件涉及寻求在美国庇护的难民，他们无法获得最终裁决结果。

These are people, most of them, cases are involved asylum, people seeking refuge here in The United States, and they have no finality in that decision.

而且家庭被迫分离。

And families are separated.

人们渴望继续他们的生活并重新安顿下来。

People are wanna move on with their lives and resettle.

他们无论如何都需要一个决定。

And they need a decision one way or the other.

是的。

And Yeah.

法治需要并应当给予他们这个决定，这也是他们来此寻求的。

The rule of law needs to have and to give them that decision, and that's why they came here, for that decision.

因此这些人被困在等待中。

And so these people are stuck waiting.

其中一些人从一开始就已经等待了很多很多年。

Some of them have been waiting many, many years to begin with.

没错。

I'm Right.

我正在审理八年前从前任移民法官那里接手的案件，它们终于排到审理日程，却又不得不重新安排。

Hearing cases that I accepted from a previous immigration judge eight years ago, and they are finally getting around to being heard and then have to be reset.

这位是杰里米亚·约翰逊，全国移民法官协会的执行副总裁。

That is Jeremiah Johnson, the executive vice president of the National Association of Immigration Judges.

非常感谢您今天参与我们的节目。

Thank you very much for joining us today.

谢谢。

Thank you.

本期节目由丹尼尔·奥夫曼和卡伦·萨莫拉制作，吉米娜·布斯提略和阿努沙·拉瑟进行了补充报道。

This episode was produced by Daniel Offman and Karen Zamora with additional reporting by Jimena Bustillo and Anusha Lather.

由克里斯托弗·因塔利亚塔和考特尼·多尔尼负责编辑。

It was edited by Christopher Intagliata and Courtney Dorney.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这里是NPR的《考虑一下》节目。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是艾尔莎·张。

I'm Elsa Chang.

在《等等，别告诉我》节目中，知名演员们回忆他们默默无闻的日子，比如佩德罗·帕斯卡尔曾讲述当服务生时的压力。

On Wait Wait Don't Tell Me, famous actors remember their days of obscurity, like when Pedro Pascal remembered the stress of being a waiter.

那种按正确方式满足每个人需求的繁琐工作，你知道的，第一幕是水，

The logistical labor of meeting everyone's needs in the right manner with the, you know, the act one, the water.

第二幕是饮料。

Act two, the drink.

请在NPR应用或任何你获取播客的地方收听《等等，别告诉我》。

Listen to Wait Wait on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcast.

特朗普政府一直在悄悄解雇大量美国移民法官，尤其是那些在担任律师期间为移民辩护的法官。

The Trump administration has been quietly dismissing scores of the country's immigration judges, and especially those judges who defended immigrants during their days as lawyers.

我当时就抱着会被解雇的预期，觉得无能为力。

I was operating under the assumption that I would be fired and that there was nothing that I could do.

这都属于重塑谁能来美国、谁能成为美国人的庞大计划的一部分。

It's all part of this huge project to reshape who can come to America and who can become American.

以上内容来自NPR的《代码转换》栏目。

That's on Code Switch from NPR.

想听没有广告插播的这期播客吗？

Wanna hear this podcast without sponsor breaks?

亚马逊Prime会员可以通过Amazon Music无广告收听《考虑这个》节目，或者您也可以支持NPR的重要新闻报道，并在+.npr.org获取《考虑这个+》会员服务。

Amazon Prime members can listen to consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music, or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this plus at +.npr.org.

网址是+.npr.org。

That's +.npr.org.