委内瑞拉视角

数月来，全球大部分注意力都集中在委内瑞拉。

For months now, much of the world's attention has been on Venezuela.

九月，特朗普政府发起了一系列打击行动，目标是美国官员所称的加勒比海和太平洋小型船只上的毒品恐怖分子。

In September, the Trump administration began a series of strikes targeting what US officials call narco terrorists in small vessels in the Caribbean Sea and Pacific Ocean.

委内瑞拉在毒品问题和向我国输送全球最恶劣罪犯方面表现极差。

Venezuela has been very bad both in terms of drugs and sending some of the worst criminals anywhere in the world into our country.

这些打击行动仍在持续进行。

Those strikes are ongoing.

截至目前已造成80多人死亡。

They've killed more than 80 people so far.

随后在十月，委内瑞拉反对派领袖玛丽亚·卡琳娜·马查多被授予诺贝尔和平奖。

Then in October, Venezuelan opposition leader Maria Carina Machado was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.

委员会称她为拒绝保持沉默的勇敢自由捍卫者。

The committee called her a courageous defender of freedom who refused to stay silent.

自去年委内瑞拉总统尼古拉斯·马杜罗在国际社会普遍认为存在舞弊的选举中宣布获胜以来，她一直处于藏匿状态。

She has been in hiding since last year when Venezuela's president Nicolas Maduro claimed victory in election widely seen by the international community as fraudulent.

尽管面临骚扰、逮捕和酷刑的风险，全国各地的公民仍坚守在投票站进行监督。

Despite the risk of harassment, arrest, and torture, citizens across the country held watch over the polling stations.

他们确保在政权销毁选票并谎报结果之前，将最终票数记录在案。

They made sure the final tallies were documented before the regime could destroy ballots and lie about the outcome.

这是诺贝尔委员会主席尤尔根·瓦特纳·弗里德纳斯在宣布奖项时的发言。

That is the Nobel committee chair, Jurgen Vatna Friednas, when announcing the prize.

马查多预计将于周三亲自在奥斯陆领取她的奖项。

Machado is expected to receive her award in person on Wednesday in Oslo.

如果她这样做，可能就无法再回到自己的国家。

And if she does, she might not be let back into her country.

支持特朗普政府在该地区行动的Machado表示，马杜罗政权的终结已迫在眉睫。

Machado, who supports the Trump administration's campaign in the region, says the end of the Maduro regime is imminent.

这是她在十月份接受NPR采访时的情况。

Here she is speaking to NPR in October.

当你面对一个犯罪结构时，没有自由就没有和平，没有力量就没有自由。

You cannot have peace without freedom, and you cannot have freedom without strength when you are facing a criminal structure.

想想这个。

Consider this.

当全世界都在关注奥斯陆和玛丽亚·卡琳娜·马查多的诺贝尔和平奖时，我们想了解她国家内部的看法。

While the world is focused on Oslo and Maria Carina Machado's Nobel Peace Prize, we wanted to get the view from inside her country.

接下来，我们将与一位驻委内瑞拉的记者谈谈那里的日常生活状况。

Coming up, we speak with a journalist in Venezuela about what daily life is like there.

我是NPR的斯科特·德特罗。

From NPR, I'm Scott Dettrow.

本周《Up First》节目中，'可负担性'成为政坛最新流行词。

This week on Up First, affordability is the latest buzzword in politics.

因此特朗普总统正在巡回宣传他的经济政绩。

So president Trump is hitting the road to tout his economic record.

他的核心信息是：经济正在蓬勃发展。

His message, the economy is thriving.

但美国民众会买账吗？

But will Americans buy it?

我们将在本周的《Up First》节目中为您带来最新资讯，该节目现已获得金球奖最佳播客提名。

We'll bring you the latest this week on Up First, now a Golden Globe nominee for best podcast.

您可以通过NPR应用程序或任何播客平台收听。

Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

这个季节你会找到许多优秀的节日电影，这些电影总能传递温暖与欢乐。

'Tis the season you'll find plenty of good holiday movies, films that can be counted upon to deliver warmth and cheer.

而糟糕的节日电影也有它们独特的趣味。

And bad holiday movies, they can be fun in their own way.

所以我们正在讨论有史以来最差的节日电影是哪部。

So we're debating what's the worst holiday movie of all time.

没错，我们也会聊聊《真爱至上》。

And, yes, we'll be talking about love actually.

您可以通过NPR应用程序或任何播客平台收听《流行文化欢乐时光》。

Listen to pop culture happy hour in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

是我的错觉，还是你也觉得现在的婚礼越来越夸张了？

Is it just me, or do you think that weddings are getting a little out of control?

我采访过一位当过13次伴娘的女性。

I interviewed a woman who had been a bridesmaid in 13 weddings.

她花费了太多钱，欠下了大量信用卡债务，以至于轮到她结婚时，他们选择了私奔。

She had spent so much money and gotten into so much credit card debt that when it was her turn to say I do, they eloped.

一场婚礼究竟值多少钱？

How much is a wedding actually worth?

请在NPR应用或你获取播客的任何平台收听《It's Been a Minute》播客。

Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

这里是NPR的《考虑一下》栏目。

It's consider this from NPR.

当前有超过3100万人生活在委内瑞拉。

More than 31,000,000 people live in Venezuela.

此刻，当全世界如此关注这个国家时，我们想更深入了解，在这片动荡中生活的数百万委内瑞拉人民的真实生活状况。

And right now, with so much of the world focused on the country, we want to get a better sense of what life is like for the millions of Venezuelans living in it in the midst of all of this upheaval.

为此，我采访了委内瑞拉记者托尼·弗兰吉。

To do that, I spoke with Venezuelan journalist Tony Frangie.

他负责《委内瑞拉周刊》这份通讯。

He heads the newsletter, Venezuela Weekly.

让我先从诺贝尔奖说起。

Let me just start with the Nobel Prize.

你认为加拉加斯的人们会有多关注明天的颁奖典礼？

How much do you think people in Caracas will be following the presentation tomorrow will be

会谈论和思考这件事吗？

talking and thinking about that?

我认为尽管由于国家现状这不是一个公开话题，但这在当地是非常重要的讨论话题，许多委内瑞拉人都在关注玛丽亚·科里娜是否真能如她所说离开委内瑞拉前往奥斯陆领奖。

I think it's a very important topic of conversation here even though it's not a very public one because of the state of affairs in the country, but many Venezuelans are expected to see if Maria Corina actually managed to leave Venezuela for Oslo, as she said.

我认为这是人们关注颁奖新闻的主要原因之一，同时这些对我们来说都是重大新闻，许多人将其视为2024年7月之后国内委内瑞拉人持续抗争和民主斗争的结果。

I think that's one of the main reasons people are watching and following the news of the prize, but also the fact that these these are very big news for us, and and many people see them as the result of the struggle and the democratic fight that many Venezuelans have been enduring for the last year in the country after the July of 2024.

你提到很多私下讨论但不太公开，能否具体描述下这种情况？

When you talk about a lot of conversation, but not too public about it, give me a sense of what that looks like.

是指私下闲聊吗？

Is that just a side conversation?

只是在手机上私下讨论，而不在社交媒体上公开谈论吗？

Is that just on your phone, but not in public on social media?

比如，理解这种现象及其原因的最佳方式是什么？

Like like, what's the best way to understand that and why?

选举结束后，反对派成功证明官方结果与投票站机器显示的不符，政府随即加大了对公民社会的打压力度。

So after the elections happened and the opposition managed to prove that their official results were not the one show by the polling station machines, The government proceeded with a bigger crackdown on civil society.

自那以后，政治话题对许多委内瑞拉人来说基本成了公共场所、社交媒体等可被监听场合的禁忌。

And since then, politics have been mostly off the table for many Venezuelans in public places, in social media, in in places that can be heard and seen.

因此这更多变成了家庭内部或私人圈子的讨论。

So it has become more or less a within family or within private circles.

嗯。

Mhmm.

事实上，有报道称广播记者因报道诺贝尔和平奖相关新闻而遭解雇。

In fact, there's reports of journalists of radio journalists who were fired from their jobs because they reported of the Nobel Peace Prize.

真的吗？

Really?

从某种程度上说，由于政府的镇压，委内瑞拉人普遍存在恐惧感，加上严重的自我审查，迫使许多这类话题的讨论转向更私密的空间。

So in a way, there's a lot of sense of fear due to repression and a lot of self censorship in Venezuelans that has forced many of these conversations and topics to more private and intimate spaces.

我想稍后再讨论选举问题，但关于谈话内容、审查制度和自我审查这个话题——当涉及到所有这些美国军事压力时，人们实际在说什么、想什么和讨论什么？

I wanna talk about the election in a moment, but on this topic of what conversation is like and and and censorship and self censorship, what is being said or thought and talked about when it comes to all of this US military pressure?

这是核心话题还是边缘话题？

Is that front and center, or is that also an on the margins conversation?

这尤其属于边缘话题，因为政府由于美国不断提出的质疑，当然还有海岸边的军舰，已经处于高度偏执状态。

It's especially on the margins because the government also has a heightened sense of paranoia due to the constant US airing questions and, of course, the warships in the coast.

所以我们看到的是人们低声表达观点与普遍对现状的否认感交织在一起。

So, what we've seen is a mix between people whispering their opinions or what they think, and more or less a generalized sense of denial with the situation.

对许多委内瑞拉人来说，唯一的解决办法就是继续按现状生活，特别是在通货膨胀加剧、节假日期间经济状况日益恶化的情况下。

For many Venezuelans, the only solution is to keep forward with their lives as as it is, especially with rising inflation, especially with a increasingly worse economic situation during the holiday seasons.

所以有时候人们很难想象一个据称处于战争边缘的国家，居然还能举办圣诞集市、万圣节派对，有新店开张，人们照常去那里购买圣诞用品。

So sometimes people wouldn't wouldn't think that a country that is supposedly in the brink of war, can find, I don't know, Christmas fairs or Halloween parties or new stores opening up and people just going to buy stuff there for Christmas.

但现实就是如此，因为对许多人来说，唯一的解决办法就是继续日常生活，假装什么都没发生——我感觉很多委内瑞拉人除非真的发生什么，否则不会把这当回事。

But it's what's happening because for many, the only solution is to just keep on with with their daily lives and and try to to act as nothing is happening because I feel that many Venezuelans won't really consider this to be a bluff until something actually happens.

这已经是持续二十五年的政治动荡了。

It's been twenty five years of constant political upheaval.

所以对很多人来说，这只是漫长清单上的又一个例行事项罢了。

So for many, it's just, you know, another check-in the long list.

是啊。

Yeah.

你有没有看到任何为军事冲突做准备的实质迹象？

Do you see any physical signs of preparations for any sort of military conflict?

不算太多。

Not as much.

政府已经调拨了部分物资支援前线。

The government has moved certain assets to the cause.

他们已将击落飞机的设备调往军事基地。

They have moved machinery to take down planes to military bases.

民兵组织也有一定程度的动员行动。

There has a medium there has been a mobilization of the militia.

但除此之外，这座城市或多或少仍然保持着更高的军事化程度，或许警察也更多了，但委内瑞拉的生活大体上还是一如既往。

But beyond that, the city more or less remains perhaps more militarized, perhaps with more policemen, but more or less life remains the same in Venezuela.

目前，我们几乎每周都会遭遇来自美国的F18或B2飞机入侵，这已经变成了另一种常态。

At this point, we're having practically weekly incursions of f 18 or b two planes from The US, and it's just become, like, another normal thing.

事实上今天就有一次入侵，但人们照常生活，因为这种情况已经持续了好几个月，每周都会发生。

We actually had one today, and people are just going on with their lives because it's it has already become a weekly thing for more than a few months.

嗯。

Mhmm.

要知道，美国国家公共电台一直试图从委内瑞拉进行报道，但始终未能获得入境许可。

You know, NPR has has been trying to report from Venezuela, but but has not been granted permission to enter the country.

关于当今委内瑞拉的生活，你觉得听众最应该了解的一件事是什么？你希望让更多人知道什么？

What is one thing about life in Venezuela today that you feel like people listening to this should know that that you wish you could tell more people about?

首先我想说，如果你看到一个国家的棒球场座无虚席，人们还在采购圣诞礼物，这并不意味着该国没有陷入危机，也不代表民众不关心政治。

Well, I would say, firstly, that if you see a country with baseball stadiums full of people and people doing Christmas shopping, it doesn't mean that that country is not in crisis or that that country is not following politics.

相反，在那些经历危机、政治冲突甚至战争的国家里，人们依然在努力维持正常的生活轨迹。

But rather that countries with crisis, with political conflicts, even with war, people there, they try to continue their lives as it is.

这两件事可以共存，尽管看起来可能很怪异。

And it's it's two things that can coexist despite how bizarre it can look.

另一方面，我认为人们应该更多倾听委内瑞拉人的声音。

And on the other hand, I would say that people should sometimes give more voice to Venezuelans and listen to Venezuelans.

我觉得美国媒体过于聚焦外国分析人士对委内瑞拉的评论。

I feel US media has focused itself mostly on foreign analysts on the country.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而委内瑞拉人自己的声音却鲜有表达空间。

And there hasn't been much much space for voices of Venezuelans.

我认为这很重要，因为正如我所说，许多委内瑞拉人正在自我噤声或自我审查。

And I think that's important, especially because, as I said, many Venezuelans are self silencing themselves or doing self censorship.

这无疑导致了报道中的偏见。

And that is definitely generating a bias in their reporting.

所以我想说，他们应该认识到委内瑞拉人的观点比他们想象的更为多元，而且很多时候会与美国许多人认为应该发生或正在发生的事情相冲突。

So I would say that they should consider that Venezuelans' opinions are more varied and and diverse than they think, and definitely, many times, will clash with what many in The US think should happen or think is happening in Venezuela.

我们很高兴能和你探讨这个话题。

Well, we were really happy to talk to you about it.

感谢你抽出时间。

Thank you for taking the time.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

以上是来自加拉加斯的的.

That is Venezuelan journalist Tony Frangie joining us from Caracas.

谢谢。

Thank you.

本期节目由Karen Zamora和Matt Ozog制作，音频工程由Ted Nibane负责。

This episode was produced by Karen Zamora and Matt Ozog with audio engineering by Ted Nibane.

剪辑由Courtney Dorning完成。

It was edited by Courtney Dorning.

我们的执行制片人是Sammy Yenigan。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这里是NPR的《Consider This》节目。

It's Consider This from NPR.

我是斯科特·德特拉。

I'm Scott Dettra.

常规保险能很好地应对日常标准风险，

Regular insurance is great for your standard day to day risks,

但对于那些一代人一遇的灾难，牙买加等国家已做好了其他准备。

but for those once in a generation catastrophes, countries like Jamaica have made other preparations.

我们都意识到飓风不可避免，不能坐以待毙。

We all realize that hurricanes are inevitable, and we can't just sit here and hope.

我们必须未雨绸缪。

We had to be proactive.

请听《金钱星球》讲述：牙买加如何用一场赌注挺过该国史上最严重的飓风。

On Planet Money, how Jamaica weathered the worst hurricane in the country's history with a bet.

《金钱星球》节目，请通过NPR收听

Planet Money, listen on the NPR

应用或任何你获取播客的地方。

app or wherever you get your podcasts.

《Wildcard》让大牌访谈变得像与朋友聊天般轻松。

Wildcard is where big name interviews feel like conversations with a friend.

我是说，真不敢相信我有多幸运。

I mean, I can't believe how lucky I've been.

你没用正确的方式道别，麦康纳。

You didn't say goodbye the right way, McConaughey.

她对我说，我不认为你是普林斯顿的料。

She told me, I don't think you're Princeton material.

要说我有什么特点，那就是开放吧，我想。

I'm nothing if not open, I guess.

我是瑞秋·马丁。

I'm Rachel Martin.

在NPR应用、YouTube或任何你获取内容的地方观看或收听《Wildcard》

Watch or listen to Wildcard on the NPR app, YouTube, or wherever you get your

播客节目。

podcasts.