我们用智能手机几乎可以做任何事情——为什么不能投票呢？

特朗普总统和选举专家很少达成一致，但纸质选票是其中之一。

President Trump and election experts agree on very few things, but paper ballots are one of them.

这被称为水印。

It's called watermark.

它无法被复制，也无法作弊。

It's impossible to copy, impossible to cheat.

很难相信一张纸竟然如此精密，但它带有水印，当你看到它时，确实非常惊人。

It's actually hard to believe that a piece of paper is highly sophisticated, but it's watermarked and it's very, it's amazing actually when you see it.

你无法作弊。

You can't cheat.

投票官员还表示，纸质选票让公众能够通过实际投出的物理选票来核对结果。

Voting officials also say paper ballots give the public a way to double check results using the actual physical votes that were cast.

几年前，前新罕布什尔州国务卿比尔·加德纳是这样描述的。

Here's how former New Hampshire secretary of state Bill Gardner put it a few years ago.

看到这支铅笔了吗？

See this pencil here?

要我把它给你，看看你能不能黑掉这支铅笔吗？

Want me to give it to you and see if you can hack this pencil?

这就是本州选民投票的方式，你根本黑不了这支铅笔。

This is how people vote in this state, and you can't hack this pencil.

话虽如此，现在已经是2025年了。

That said, it is also 2025.

即使在大多数人关心美国发展方向的今天，投票率也远未达到普遍水平。

Voter turnout is nowhere near universal even at a time when most people are concerned about the direction of The United States.

例如，近80%的美国人不参加初选。

Nearly 80% of Americans don't vote in primary elections, for instance.

难道真的没有更好的办法吗？

Is there really not a better way to do this?

布拉德利·塔斯克认为有。

Bradley Tusk thinks there is.

我认为，改变并终结两极分化的唯一方法是实现真正更高的投票率，而实现这一点的唯一途径是把投票带到人们身边，带到他们生活的地方——也就是他们的手机上。

I think the only way to change and end the polarization is to have meaningfully higher turnout, and the only way to do that is to bring voting to where the people are and where they live their lives, and that's on their phones.

塔斯克曾是伊利诺伊州的副州长。

Tusk used to be deputy governor of Illinois.

他还是查克·舒默的传播总监，也是优步的首位政治顾问。

He was also Chuck Schumer's communications director, and he was Uber's first political adviser.

他深谙政治，如今也极其富有。

He's politically savvy, and he's also now incredibly rich.

想想这个。

Consider this.

有一个人想改变整个国家的投票方式。

One man wants to change how the entire country votes.

但一个充满选举怀疑论者的国家，真的准备好接受互联网投票了吗？

But is a country full of election skeptics actually ready for Internet voting?

来自NPR，我是迈尔斯·帕克斯。

From NPR, I'm Miles Parks.

NPR已经作为美国传统存在了五十多年。

NPR has been an American tradition for more than fifty years.

现在，由你来帮助传承下去。

Now it's up to you to help pass it on.

今天就捐赠，确保它的未来。

Ensure its future with a donation today.

访问 donate.npr.org。

Visit donate.npr.org.

当我们告别2025年时，我们的记者们正在回顾过去一年中报道过的最令人难忘的国际新闻。

As we say goodbye to 2025, our reporters are looking back at some of the most memorable international stories they covered in the last year.

从非洲一座从战争中复苏的城市，到坚韧的印度海龟，从获得解放的难民到叛逆的奥地利修女，这些都是去年的全球焦点。

From a city in Africa emerging from war to resilient Indian turtles, liberated refugees to defiant Austrian nuns, global favorites from the last year.

请在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台收听《世界现状》。

Listen to state of the world on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

在《我们爱过的书》这一季的收官节目中，我们将与四位在错误的地方寻找爱情的朋友共度时光。

On the season finale of books we've loved, we're hanging out with four friends looking for love in all the wrong places.

我们将与《它已经过了一分钟》的布列塔尼·卢斯一起重温特里·麦克米兰的《等待呼吸》。

We are revisiting Terry McMillan's waiting to exhale with Brittany Luce from it's been a minute.

在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台，均可找到《我们爱过的书》的所有集数，订阅NPR的《每日一书》播客频道。

Find all episodes of books we've loved on NPR's book of the day podcast feed on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

这是NPR的《就此而言》。

It's Consider This from NPR.

布拉德利·塔斯克是一位风险投资家、政治战略家和慈善家，他决心实现在线投票，即使在选举界多数人认为这是个极糟糕的主意时也是如此。

Bradley Tusk is a venture capitalist, political strategist, and philanthropist who is hell bent on making online voting a reality, even at a time when much of the election establishment thinks this is a very bad idea.

塔斯克的组织——移动投票项目——正在推动美国民主制度的重大技术革新。

Tusk's organization, the Mobile Voting Project, is pushing a major technology makeover for American democracy.

欢迎来到本节目。

Welcome to the program.

嘿，迈尔斯。

Hey, Miles.

谢谢你的邀请。

Thanks for having me.

嗯。

Yeah.

谢谢你的到来。

Thanks for being here.

多年来，我一直推动通过智能手机举行选举。

So have been pushing for years to move towards holding elections via smartphone.

移动投票项目网站的首页写道：修复我们破碎的政治，用手机投票。

The front page of the mobile voting project website says, fix our broken politics, vote with your phone.

用手机投票究竟会如何改变一切？

How would voting with your phone actually change everything?

在我看来，我们政治面临的最大问题是两极分化。

To me, the biggest problem we face in our politics is polarization.

我们的政客很难合作、妥协并解决问题，因为他们通常只对在初选中投票的少数群体负责。

It is really hard for our politicians to work together to compromise and solve problems because they're typically answering to the small groups of people who vote in their primaries.

由于选区操纵，真正重要的选举通常是初选，而初选的投票率非常低。

Because of gerrymandering, typically the only election that really matters is the primary, and primary turnout is very low.

通常只有大约10%。

It's usually around 10%.

这些选民往往是极端派，无论是极右翼还是极左翼，或者是那些懂得在低投票率选举中操纵资金和选票的特殊利益群体。

And those voters tend to be the people of the extremes, whether it's the far right or the far left, or very special interests that know how to move money and votes in low turnout elections.

由于政客们最关心的莫过于连任，为了做到这一点，他们必须满足那10%真正参与初选的选民，这意味着他们必须完全忠于某种意识形态，而不是跨党派合作以推动事务进展。

And because politicians really want to get reelected above anything else, I mean, in order to do so, they have to satisfy that 10% who actually vote in their primaries, which means being completely pure to the ideology rather than working across the aisle to get things done.

如果投票率更高，这种情况就会容易得多。

If you had higher turnout, that would become a lot easier.

如果初选的投票率从10%提升到30%或40%，将更能代表主流民意，从而改变民选官员的根本政治激励，促使他们更倾向于合作与务实。

If turnout were 30 or 40% in a primary instead of 10, that is so much more representative of the mainstream that the underlying political incentives for our elected officials shift towards working together and getting things done.

因此，我认为改变并终结两极分化的唯一途径，是实现真正更高的投票率。

So I think the only way to change and end the polarization is to have meaningfully higher turnout.

而要实现这一点，尤其是在人们关注度较低的州和地方选举中，唯一的方法就是把投票带到人们身边——带到他们生活的地方，也就是他们的手机上。

And the only way to do that, especially for state and local elections where where people just aren't that focused, is to bring voting to where the people are and where they live their lives, and that's on their phones.

你有没有了解过选民对这一做法的看法？

Do you have any sense of how voters feel about that?

我的意思是，我只是好奇普通美国人是否会接受这种改变。

I mean, I guess I just wonder about the average American if they would be open to this sort of change.

当然。

Sure.

我们已经在不同地方多次对此进行过民意调查。

We we've polled this a bunch of times in different places.

有趣的是，在2020年之前，民主党人、独立人士和共和党人的结果非常一致，大约75%的人表示，如果安全，我们就应该采用这种方式。

And what's interesting is before 2020, the results were very consistent across Democrats, independents, and Republicans, where about 75% said, if it is secure, we should have this.

2020年之后，独立人士和民主党人的支持率仍维持在七成多，但共和党人的支持率却跌至四成左右，因为特朗普错误地声称2020年大选被窃取，这种说法在许多共和党人中产生了共鸣。

After 2020, we stayed in the mid seventies with independents and Democrats, but then fell into the forties with republicans because Trump falsely arguing that he was, you know, the election was stolen from him in 2020, but that did resonate with a lot of republicans.

有一些特定人群在投票时面临更多困难，他们尤其支持这种做法。

There are individual groups of people for whom voting tends to be harder, and they are particularly supportive.

这可能包括农村地区的人群、派驻海外的军人、残障人士、Z世代，以及民权团体中的广泛支持，因为许多领袖认为移动投票是目前最有效的反选民压制工具。

So that could be people in rural areas, deployed military, people with disabilities, Gen z, with a lot of support in the civil rights community because a lot of leaders think that mobile voting is the best anti voter suppression tool out there.

所以，确实存在一些特定的人群。

So there are specific groups of people.

但总体而言，当我问一些群体，比如‘你们有多少人参加了最近的州参议院初选？’

But overall, you know, when I ask groups like, hey, who voted in their last state senate primary?

如果他们诚实的话，几乎没有人会举手。

If they're being honest, almost no one raises their hands.

然后我说，好吧，如果你们可以在等咖啡的时候、坐公交车的时候，或者任何方便的时候投票，有多少人会考虑这样做？

And then when I say, okay, if you could do it while you're waiting for your coffee or you're sitting on the bus or whatever it is, how many of you would then consider doing it?

然后几乎所有人都举起了手。

And then pretty much everyone raises their hands.

所以，即使投票率从10%提升到35%，也会彻底改变选民的构成和潜在的政治激励机制。

So even if we went from 10% turnout to 35, it would radically change the composition of the electorate and the underlying political incentives.

因此，我认为在一个我们已经用手机进行银行交易、医疗保健的世界里，这是非常可行的。

And so I think that that's very feasible in a world where we already do our banking on our phones, our health care on our phones.

我只是觉得我们已经习惯了这种方式，所以过渡起来不会很难。

I just think we're we're so used to it that it wouldn't be a hard transition.

我只想问一下，到目前为止，你为这个项目投入了多少钱？

Can I just ask how much money have you put into at this point, this project?

到目前为止，我已经为此项目投入了超过2000万美元。

I've put over $20,000,000 of my own money to this so far.

哇。

Wow.

我应该说清楚。

I should be clear.

这完全是慈善行为。

This is totally philanthropic.

这绝不是任何形式的商业行为。

This is not in any way, shape, or form a business.

我花这笔钱是为了希望能改善民主。

I'm spending it to hopefully try to fix democracy.

我还想再提一点，以防不清楚：移动投票并不是要取代任何其他投票方式。

One other point that I just should make just in case it's not clear, mobile voting is not meant to replace any form of voting.

我们应该尽可能提供所有可能的投票方式。

We should just have every form available possible.

而且，是的，二十年后，会不会移动投票基本上成为每个人使用的方式？

And, yeah, in twenty years, could it be that, you know, mobile voting is basically what everyone uses?

当然。

Sure.

而且，我觉得当你谈到你们所做的这项民意调查时，关键在于如果它是安全的，如果人们觉得它是安全的。

Well, and I think when you were talking about the polling that you all have done on this, I think the key phrase is if it's secure, if people feel like it's secure.

对吧？

Right?

我知道你们刚刚宣布了一项重大进展，或者你们称之为互联网投票技术的一个里程碑。

I know that you guys just announced a pretty major development or something that you guys are calling a milestone in Internet voting technology.

你能解释一下你们推出的这个新东西吗？

Can you explain this this new thing that you rolled out?

当然。

Yeah.

当然可以。

Absolutely.

而且要明确的是，如果它不安全，当然我们就不能使用。

And to be clear, if it's not secure, of course, we shouldn't have it.

我也不希望有这种系统。

I wouldn't want it either.

所以它的运作方式是，我以自己为例。

So the way it works is I'll I'll use myself as the example here.

我下载纽约市选举委员会的应用程序。

I download the New York City Board of Elections app.

他们首先会问：有没有一位名叫布拉德利·塔斯克的人住在纽约市？

The first thing they would say is, okay, is there someone named Bradley Tusk who lives in New York City?

我会输入我社保号码的后四位和我的地址。

I would enter the last four digits of my social and my address.

现在我们确认了，确实有一位名叫布拉德利·塔斯克的选民住在纽约市，但我是布拉德利·塔斯克本人吗？

And now we've established, okay, there is a voter named Bradley Tusk in New York City, but am I Bradley Tusk?

所以第一步是多因素身份验证。

So the first thing is multifactor authentication.

这就像你忘记谷歌密码时，他们会给你发送一个验证码，你把它输入到应用里。

So that's just like when you forget your Google password, they send you a code, you put it into the app.

第二件事是生物识别验证。

The second thing is biometric screening.

所以要对你的面部进行扫描。

So take a scan of your face.

现在我们已经确认了我确实是本人。

Now we've established I'm really me.

选票会显示在我的屏幕上。

The ballot appears on my screen.

每当我完成并准备提交时，会发生三件事。

Whenever I'm done and I'm ready to submit, three things happen.

第一，我的选票会被加密。

First, my ballot is encrypted.

第二，它会被匿名化。

Second, it's anonymized.

第三，我会收到一个追踪码，就像联邦快递包裹一样。

And third, I get a tracking code like if it were a FedEx package.

然后它会被传回选举委员会，他们会将其与网络物理隔离，也就是说，将其断开联网。

It then goes back to the Board of Elections and they air gap it, which means they just take it offline.

一旦我的选票不再连接互联网，他们就会对其进行解密。

And once my ballot is not connected to the Internet, then they decrypt it.

我的选票会被打印成纸质副本。

A paper copy of my ballot gets printed out.

这份纸质选票会与其他所有选票混合在一起，然后进行扫描和计票。

That gets mixed in with all the other ballots, and that's what's scanned and tabulated.

我可以查看我的选票状态，因为追踪码会显示它已被接收、打印、计票等，因此您能对结果充满信心。

I can see where my ballot stands because the tracking code will show me that it was received, printed, tabulated, and so on, and so you can have confidence in the results.

我知道你们与一家名为‘自由公正’的公司合作，该公司被认为是可信的选举技术供应商。

I know you all did work with a company free and fair who's considered a credible election technology vendor.

但本周我确实与普林斯顿大学的安德鲁·阿佩尔教授进行了交谈。

But I I did talk this week with professor Andrew Appel of Princeton University.

他是这群计算机科学家和专家中的一员，我想你们对此并不陌生。

He's part of this group of computer scientists and experts who I think you're familiar with.

这些人多年来一直对你们的工作持怀疑态度。

These are people who have been pretty skeptical of your work for years.

他告诉我们，这个项目所发布的内容实际上并没有证明它比以往任何一次都更接近大规模应用的条件。

And what he told us was that what the project published essentially does not actually prove everything that this this thing is ready for prime time any more than any other previous time.

我们来听一小段这段话。

Let's just listen to a little bit of of this.

2018年，国家科学院、工程院和医学研究院发布的报告——我也是该报告的合著者之一——指出，截至2018年，互联网投票无法通过任何现有技术确保安全。

The report from the National Academies of Science, Engineering, and Medicine published in 2018, and I was one of the coauthors of that report, said that as of 2018, Internet voting was not securable by any currently known technology.

它并没有说将来永远不可能实现。

Didn't say it would never ever be possible.

到2025年，仍然没有任何已知技术能够实现这一点。

It's still true in 2025 that there's no currently known technology that will do it.

所以他仔细阅读了你们发布的所有内容。

So he read everything that you all have published.

他写了一篇博客文章，列出了他发现的诸多问题。

He wrote a blog post laying out a bunch of issues that he saw with it.

你看过那篇博客文章吗？你有什么回应吗？

Have you seen the blog post, and do you any response

对此？

to that?

我觉得他很多地方都理解错了。

And and and I I just think he got a lot of it wrong.

他指出了三个他认为技术存在不足的具体领域。

He pointed out three specific areas where he thought the technology fell short.

第一个是选票核对，也就是选民回过头查看自己选票的PDF，以确保这是他们原本的意愿。

The first was ballot checks, and that is voters going back and looking at a PDF of their ballot to ensure that it's what they intended to do.

我们已经构建了一个系统来实现这一点。

We've built a system to do that.

我们会给你一个代码，你把它输入到另一个设备中，就会显示你的选票PDF。

We give you a code, you put it into a different device, a PDF of your ballot comes up.

他的第二个观点是缺乏争议解决机制。

His second point was the lack of a dispute resolution protocol.

而我们所构建的技术中没有包含这一点的原因是，每个司法管辖区对于如何处理这个问题都有完全不同的看法。

And the reason why that's not in the tech that we have built is every jurisdiction has totally different views as to how they want to handle that.

因此，任何特定城市、县或州希望采用的任何方法，都可以由其合作的供应商集成到系统中。

So whatever approach any specific city, county, state wants to use, that could then be built by whatever vendor they're working with into the system.

他的第三个观点是恶意软件的风险。

And then his third point was just the risk of malware.

他说得对，这种风险确实存在，无论你何时上网、使用手机还是使用iPad，风险都始终存在。

And he's right, that is a risk that exists every time that you go on the Internet, every time you use your phone, every time you use your iPad, no matter what.

投票站的问题层出不穷。

Things go wrong at polling places all of the time.

志愿者没有按时到场。

The volunteers don't show up.

有人触发了火警。

Someone posts a fire alarm.

而在邮寄选票方面，卡车会迷路，选票会丢失，箱子也会丢失。

And then with mail in ballots, trucks get lost, ballots get lost, crates get lost.

所以，你知道，说移动投票必须达到绝对完美的标准，而我们今天实际的投票方式远达不到这个标准，这毫无道理。

So, you know, to say that you need this absolute standard of perfection for mobile voting when the real ways that we vote today are far below that doesn't make sense.

让城市自行选择是否参与，它们甚至完全可以不参与。

Let cities opt into it if they want to, so they don't even have to.

如果它们选择参与，这将只是多种投票方式中的一种。

If they choose to, it would be one of several forms of voting.

而且，它只适用于最基层的市政选举，看看哪些方式有效，再逐步推进。

And, it would only apply to the most, you know, local municipal elections and see what works and go from there.

既然技术已经存在、已经开发出来、我为此付费、而且免费提供，我们却拒绝利用这一机会，固守现状，这完全说不通。

To deny ourselves that opportunity and to keep the system the way it is, when the technology exists, it's built, I pay for it, it's free, I'm giving it away, just doesn't make any sense.

如果你什么都不做，只是坐在这里解释为什么一切都不可能成功、为什么一切都不可能改变，那你就是在彻底放弃这个国家，而我绝不愿意这样做。

If you don't do something and you just sit here and explain why nothing can ever work and nothing can ever change, you are throwing in the towel on this country completely, and I'm not willing to do that.

那是布拉德利·塔斯克。

That's Bradley Tusk.

他负责移动投票项目。

He runs the Mobile Voting Project.

非常感谢您今天与我们交谈。

Thank you so much for talking with us today.

嗯。

Yeah.

谢谢您邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

本集由艾弗里·基特利制作。

This episode was produced by Avery Keatley.

本集由莎拉·罗宾斯和本·斯韦兹编辑。

It was edited by Sarah Robbins and Ben Swayze.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这是来自NPR的《Consider This》。

It's Consider This from NPR.

我是迈尔斯·帕克斯。

I'm Miles Parks.