明尼苏达州究竟发生了什么？

自移民与海关执法局（ICE）降临明尼阿波利斯街头以来，已经快两个月了。

It's been nearly two months since ICE descended on the streets of Minneapolis.

在这段时间里，雷妮·麦金·古德遭枪杀，儿童被拘留，联邦政府逮捕无证移民的行动只会越来越大、越来越激进、越来越激烈。

In that time, Renee Macklin Good has been shot and killed, children have been detained, and the federal government's campaign to arrest undocumented immigrants has only grown bigger, more aggressive, more intense.

ICE滚出。

ICE OUT.

ICE滚出。

ICE OUT.

ICE滚出。

ICE OUT.

在此过程中，明尼苏达人一直在抗议发生在本州的这些事件，包括上周五下午，成千上万人走上街头，600家本地企业关闭以示声援。

And each step of the way, Minnesotans have protested what has been happening in their state, including Friday afternoon when thousands took to the streets and 600 local businesses closed in solidarity.

玛丽·瓦夫里斯住在明尼阿波利斯南部。

Mary Vavris lives in South Minneapolis.

每个人都全力支持这个行动，因为今天遭殃的是他们，但明天可能就轮到任何人了。

Everybody is all in on this project because, you know, it's them today, but it could be anybody next.

所以我们应该尽最大努力团结一致。

And so we should, you know, be as as strong a front as we could possibly be.

尽管联邦政府的行动在升级，37岁的塔莉亚·普莱彻表示，她和邻居们会坚持到底。

And even as the campaign from the federal government ramps up, 37 year old Talia Pletcher says she and her neighbors are in it for the long haul.

我还没听任何人讨论过，我们能维持这种状态多久？

I haven't heard anyone have that conversation of, like, how long can we, like, sustain this?

我真的认为，只要需要，我们就会一直坚持下去。

I really think we'll do this for as long as we need to.

想想看，自从ICE在明尼阿波利斯加大行动力度以来，已经发生了这么多事情。

Consider this, so much has happened since ICE began ramping up its efforts in Minneapolis.

要把握整体情况可能很难。

It can be hard to get a sense of the big picture.

接下来，两位在现场的NPR记者将为您梳理这一切。

Coming up, two NPR reporters on the ground do just that.

来自NPR，我是斯科特·特雷托。

From NPR, I'm Scott Tetreault.

这是《新鲜空气》节目的联合主持人塔尼娅·莫斯利。

This is Tanya Moseley, co host of Fresh Air.

你可能会在深夜电视节目或YouTube上看到你喜爱的演员、导演和喜剧演员，但《新鲜空气》能带你深入探索。

You'll see your favorite actors, directors, and comedians on late night TV shows or YouTube, but what you get with Fresh Air is a deep dive.

与比莉·艾利什、奎斯特洛夫、爱莉安娜·格兰德、斯蒂芬·科尔伯特等人共度一段深度对话时光，还有更多嘉宾。

Spend some quality time with people like Billie Eilish, Questlove, Ariana Grande, Stephen Colbert, and so many more.

我们会提出你在其他地方听不到的问题。

We ask questions you won't hear asked anywhere else.

收听来自NPR和WHYY的《新鲜空气》播客。

Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.

这是NPR的《就此而言》。

It's consider this from NPR.

NPR的凯特·隆斯托夫和贾斯敏·加斯特数月来一直报道特朗普政府逮捕和驱逐无证移民的行动。

NPR's Kat Lonstorff and Jasmine Garst have been covering the Trump administration's efforts to round up and deport undocumented immigrants for months.

他们已在多个城市进行了报道。

They've done it in several cities.

自两周前ICE在明尼苏达州的行动升级以来，这两人一直每天跟踪事件进展。

The pair has been tracking events daily since the ICE campaign in Minnesota intensified about two weeks ago.

他们加入我，向我分享了他们在报道这个故事过程中所了解到的情况。

They joined me to give me some perspective on what they have learned as they have reported this story.

贾斯敏，凯特，谢谢你们的到来。

Jasmine, Kat, thanks for being here.

谢谢你们邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

嗨。

Hey.

谢谢你们邀请我们。

Thanks for having us.

你们两人已经就每天发生的事情撰写了大量报道。

You have both filed so many stories about what is happening day in and day out.

我们这次对话结束后，你们就要出去报道这些抗议活动了。

After we have this conversation, you're gonna go out and cover these protests.

发生的事情太多了。

There's so much happening.

我想先从这一点说起。

I wanna start with this.

你们到达明尼阿波利斯以来，有什么令你们感到惊讶的吗？

What has surprised each of you since you got to Minneapolis?

Jasmine，我先问你。

Jasmine, I'll start with you.

好的。

Sure.

过去一年里，我一直报道这些行动。

So I've been covering these operations for the last year.

我来之前对正在发生的事情已经有了一定准备。

I came pretty prepared for what was happening.

我认为让我感到惊讶的是明尼阿波利斯这场行动的规模。

I think I was surprised by the scope of the campaign in Minneapolis.

我的意思是，这里并不是像洛杉矶那样大的城市，但现场却有至少2500名特工。

I mean, it is not a city as big as Los Angeles, and there are at least 2,500 agents on the ground here.

所以是的。

So Uh-huh.

所以这个规模真的前所未有。

So the scope is really something like we haven't seen.

你知道吗，边境巡逻队的格雷格·博维诺频繁召开新闻发布会。

You know, Greg Bovino from Border Patrol, he has had very frequent press conferences.

你知道吗，周四他召开了一场新闻发布会，称政府在这里是为了保护父母们。

You know, on Thursday, he gave a press conference in which he said that the government is here to defend Ma and Pa.

他一遍又一遍地这么说。

And he said this over and over again.

父母们来这里是为了保护父母们。

Ma and Pa were here to protect Ma and Pa.

但我亲眼看到的是，父母们正在抗议。

But what I'm seeing on the ground is that Ma and Pa are protesting.

凯特，你看到了什么？

And Kat, what are you seeing?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，贾斯敏刚才关于父母的那番话真的很到位。

I mean, I think that's a really good point that Jasmine just made about Ma and Pa.

你知道，这里天气真的很冷，所以人们不一定会上街抗议。

You know, it's also really cold here, so people aren't necessarily, like, out on the streets protesting.

当然，今天他们确实上街了。

Obviously, today, they are.

但你知道，他们通过这些信号聊天群和庞大的网络，以一种地下方式紧密联系着。

But, you know, they're really connected in this kind of underground way through these signal chats, these huge networks.

人们一大早起来开车送老师去学校。

You know, people are getting up early to drive teachers to school.

他们一大早起来开车送社区里的餐厅员工去上班，送杂货，重新安排自己的日程，只为帮助邻居。

They're getting up early to drive restaurant workers in their neighborhood to their jobs, delivering groceries, reworking all their schedules just to, like, be helping their neighbors.

而且，我从这些做这些事的人那里听到，对他们来说，这就是他们的抗议方式。

And, you know, I'm hearing from all these people that are doing that stuff that for them, that is their form of protest.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为过去十年的一个重要主题是我们所有人都生活在信息孤岛中。

I think a big theme of the past decade is how much we all live in silos.

而且，贾斯敏，正如你报道的那样，特朗普曾承诺要彻底推行这些措施，而这在许多选民中很受欢迎。

And, Jasmine, as you reported, especially so much, Trump promised to basically do all of this, and it was popular with a lot of voters.

所以我在想，你们俩都在明尼阿波利斯，有没有遇到过支持移民与海关执法局（ICE）行动的人？

So I'm wondering, as you're both in Minneapolis, have either of you come across anybody who is supportive of what ICE is doing?

没有。

No.

我还没遇到过。

I have not.

很难夸大人们对这一行动的普遍敌意有多广泛。

And it's hard to overstate how wide spread the animosity towards this operation is.

明尼阿波利斯的人们对这件事并不高兴。

People in Minneapolis are not happy about this.

是的。

Yeah.

我前几天还跟一个优步司机聊过，他是个移民，三十年前从利比里亚来的。

I mean, I was talking to an Uber driver the other day who was an immigrant, by the way, came from Liberia some thirty years ago.

但他告诉我，在这一切发生之前、在选举之前，他是支持特朗普的。

But he was telling me that, you know, before all of this, before the election, he was pro Trump.

他说，我喜欢特朗普说的话。

He said, you know, I like what he was saying.

他说话直来直去，就是那种风格。

He said it straight, that kind of thing.

所以我问他，如果你能重新投票，你还会选特朗普吗？

So I asked him, you know, would you go back and vote for Trump, you know, again if you could?

他说，不会。

And he said, no.

绝对不。

Absolutely not.

他讨厌这座城市现在发生的一切。

He hates what's happening in the city right now.

凯特，这正是你我之前多次讨论过的话题，涉及很多不同的故事。

Kat, this is something you and I have talked a lot about with a lot of different stories.

你接触了这么多人，有些对话会萦绕在你心头，持续数周、数月，甚至数年。

You talk to so many people, and there's conversations that stick with you weeks, months, even years later.

而你就身处其中，所以也许很难说清楚。

And you're right in the middle of it, so maybe it's hard to say.

但到目前为止，什么让你印象最深？

But at this point in time, what's sticking with you?

有一位女性，我觉得我会久久记住她。

There is one woman who I really think is gonna stick with me for a while.

这位女性今年27岁。

This woman who's 27.

她是美国公民。

She is a US citizen.

她有两个年幼的孩子。

She has two young kids.

他们也是美国公民。

They're also US citizens.

公民。

Citizens.

她的丈夫是无证移民，来自墨西哥。

Her husband is undocumented and from Mexico.

我去她家拜访过他们，他们一家人现在都待在家里，不敢出门。

And I met with her in her home, and they're all together as a family not leaving their house right now.

这种情况非常普遍。

This is really common.

你经常会从遇到的人那里听到这样的故事。

You hear this a lot from people that you meet.

你知道吗，她会出去做零售工作，然后回来，因为她需要为家人赚钱。

And, you know, she leaves to go to a retail job and comes back because she needs to earn money for the family.

但你知道，她丈夫从不出门。

But, you know, her husband doesn't leave.

她八岁的儿子原本去上学，但最近他们把他接回家，现在他上网课。

Her eight year old son was going to school, but recently they pulled him out and he's online schooling right now.

她告诉我，她四岁的女儿——这个孩子是美国公民——从去年十一月底或十二月初起就没出过门。

And she told me that her four year old daughter, this is a four year old who is a US citizen, has not left the house since late November or early December.

这都快两年没出过门了。

That's almost two the house.

从来没出过门。

Has not left the house.

没在后院玩过，也没遛过家里的狗。

Not playing in the backyard, not walking the family dog.

她从来没出过门。

She has not left the house.

贾斯敏，你本周的报道非常有力，有时甚至令人震撼，我想知道什么最让你印象深刻？

Jasmine, your reporting this week has been really powerful and and really at times visceral, and I'm wondering what what's sticking with you?

对我来说，最让我难忘的是这个由志愿者组成的地下网络。

To me, what's really sticking to with me is this underground network of volunteers.

即使按明尼阿波利斯的标准来看，这里也冷得厉害。

It is really cold here even by Minneapolis standards.

前几天，我去到一个社区，那里正在清真寺举行祈祷活动。

And the other day, I, went to this neighborhood where there was, it was it was prayer, at a mosque.

我站在这些志愿者中间，他们迎着呼啸的寒风，保护着想要祈祷的邻居们。

And, I stood with these volunteers who were standing in in the blustering wind, to protect their neighbors who wanted to pray.

他们的年龄在69岁到81岁之间。

And their age ranges were 69 to 81.

我认为，明尼阿波利斯的故事就是邻里之间相互组织、彼此守护的故事。

And I think the story of Minneapolis is the story of of neighbors organizing to protect neighbors.

我问了其中一位志愿者。

And I asked one of them.

我问她：你知道吗，你为什么站在这里受冻？

I asked her, you know, why are are are you standing out here in the cold?

你为什么选择出来这里？

Why why did you choose to come out here?

她说：我觉得我没有别的选择。

And she said, I don't feel like I have a choice.

我觉得这唯一的选择。

I feel like this is my only choice.

你知道吗，我想以这个作为结尾。

You know, I wanna end with this.

在这次对话中，我们试图把握大局，但我们都是一个故事、一个故事地讲述。

We're we're trying in this conversation to get a a sense of the big picture here, but we all tell the story piece by piece, story by story.

有时候，一些背景信息就在其中丢失了。

And at times, some context gets lost there.

我很好奇，Jasmine，你觉得在你报道的单个故事中，有什么样的动态是很难传达出来的？

I'm curious, like, Jasmine, what to you is a dynamic that you're seeing that's hard to convey in a single story that you file?

我认为正在发生的事情正在不断升级。

I think the escalating nature of what is happening.

确实在升级。

It is escalating.

我的意思是，过去一年里，我一直在各个城市跟进这件事。

I mean, I have been covering this from city to city for the last year.

我觉得，你知道，人们很容易认为这些行动只是从一个城市到另一个城市、从一个州到另一个州地移动。

And I think, you know, it's it's easy to see this as, you know, these operations travel from city to city, state to state.

总是差不多的样子。

It's always kind of the same.

其实不是这样的。

It's not.

他们的手段越来越强硬。

They are getting heavier handed.

你知道，我们现在看到了一份泄露的备忘录，显示特工可以在没有司法授权的情况下进入民众家中。

You know, we are now seeing, you know, a memo that was leaked, that agents can, go into people's homes without a judicial warrant.

我们现在看到有2500名特工被部署到这座城市。

We are now seeing 2,500 agents, deployed into the city.

现在有人在讨论《叛乱法案》。

There is now talk of the Insurrection Act.

更直白地说，就在离你不远的另一座城市，有些孩子正躲在自己家里。

And, you know, to put it more bluntly, you know, in a city not so far away from you, there are children who are hiding in their homes.

所以，这并不是一种静态的情况。

And so, I mean, this isn't a static situation.

作为一名过去一年一直报道此事的记者，我觉得这种情况正在恶化。

This is a situation which, as a reporter who's been covering this for the last year, feels like it is devolving.

这是NPR的贾斯敏·加斯特和卡特·隆斯多夫。

That was NPR's Jasmine Garst and Kat Lonsdorf.

她们一直报道明尼苏达州持续进行的联邦移民行动及其引发的反弹。

They've both been covering the ongoing federal immigration operation and backlash to it in Minnesota.

感谢你们两位。

Thanks to both of you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

本集由迈克尔·莱维特制作，音频工程由蒂芙尼·维拉·卡斯特罗负责。

This episode was produced by Michael Levitt with audio engineering by Tiffany Vera Castro.

本集由考特尼·多宁和埃里克·韦斯特维尔特编辑。

It was edited by Courtney Dorning and Eric Westervelt.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

感谢我们的Consider This Plus听众，你们支持NPR记者的工作，帮助维持公共广播的活力。

Thank you to our Consider This Plus listeners who support the work of NPR journalists and help keep public radio strong.

支持者还能在无广告干扰的情况下收听每一集，并解锁Consider This的独家附加集。

Supporters also hear every episode without messages from sponsors, and they unlock bonus episodes of Consider This.

了解更多请访问 +.npr.org。

You can learn more at +.npr.org.

这是来自NPR的Consider This。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是斯科特·德特罗克斯。

I'm Scott Detreaux.