联邦移民执法的未来应该是什么样子？

国土安全部（DHS）正处于停摆状态，其持续时间长短可能会影响机场运营、灾害应对和网络安全。

The Department of Homeland Security or DHS is in a shutdown, which depending on how long it lasts may impact airport operations, disaster response, and cybersecurity.

尽管由于国会就特朗普政府的移民 crackdown 陷入僵局而导致停摆，我们的移民执法行动仍将继续。

What won't stop our immigration enforcement operations even though the shutdown happened because of a congressional deadlock over the Trump administration's immigration crackdown.

为了恢复对移民与海关执法局和边境巡逻队的信任，他们必须承认错误，对行动准则保持诚实和坦率，并承诺改革。

To restore trust in ICE and border patrol, they must admit their mistakes, be honest and forthright with their rules of engagement, and pledge to reform.

这是共和党参议员兰德·保罗上周在参议院国土安全委员会听证会上的发言。

That's Republican senator Rand Paul during a Senate Homeland Security Committee hearing last week.

代理移民与海关执法局局长托德·莱昂斯在那次听证会上作证。

Acting immigration and customs enforcement director Todd Lyons testified during that hearing.

关于每一项执法行动，我们当然都会回顾。

In regards to every law enforcement operation, of course, we go back.

我们会总结经验教训。

We look at lessons learned.

我们总是会回过头来审视。

We always look back.

你知道，最后这件事的责任在我。

You know, at the end, the ownership of that is mine.

上个月，移民官员在明尼阿波利斯开枪打死两名美国公民后，移民与海关执法局受到了严厉审查。

ICE has faced intense scrutiny after immigration agents shot and killed two US citizens in Minneapolis last month.

我已向遇难者家属表达慰问，并请求亲自会见他们，代表涉事的执法人员表达我的哀悼。

I did give my condolences to the family and requested to meet them personally to give my condolences on behalf of the officers and agents involved.

民主党人拒绝批准拨款，除非实施新的限制措施，例如要求移民官员佩戴执法记录仪，并在突袭行动中携带司法搜查令。

Democrats have refused to approve funding until new restrictions are put in place, like requiring immigration agents to wear body cameras and to carry judicial warrants for raids.

大多数共和党人迄今为止希望减少改革，从而导致了僵局。

Most Republicans have so far wanted fewer reforms leading to the deadlock.

但在明尼苏达州，情况正在发生变化。

But in Minnesota, things are changing.

早上好。

Good morning.

我是汤姆·霍曼，特朗普总统的边境事务主管。

I'm Tom Homan, border czar of president Trump.

就在几天前，边境事务主管汤姆·霍曼宣布了明尼阿波利斯移民突击行动的结束。

Just days ago, border czar Tom Homan announced the end of the immigration surge in Minneapolis.

我很高兴地报告，这次突击行动取得了我们此行所期望的成果。

I'm very pleased to report that this surge operation have yielded the successful results we have came here for.

我已提出建议，特朗普总统也同意，终止这次突击行动。

I have proposed, and president Trump has concurred, that this surge operation conclude.

但这次行动真的成功了吗？

But was that operation a success?

请想想，在联邦移民执法备受关注的当下，它的未来应该是什么样子？

Consider this, With federal immigration enforcement under the microscope, what should its future look like?

来自NPR，我是艾米莉·翁格。

From NPR, I'm Emily Kwong.

这是NPR的《就此而言》。

It's Consider This from NPR.

当国会议员和全国各地的人们都在思考移民执法应如何开展时，我们联系了奥巴马政府时期的前国土安全部部长珍妮特·纳波利塔诺，探讨ICE的过去与未来。

As lawmakers and people around the country grapple with what immigration enforcement should look like, we have called up Janet Napolitano, former DHS secretary under president Obama, to talk about the future and the past of ICE.

在宣布结束明尼苏达州的移民打击行动时，边境事务主管汤姆·霍曼称这是一次成功。

In announcing the end of the immigration crackdown in Minnesota, border czar Tom Homan said it was a success.

你觉得这算成功吗？

Do you see it as a success?

不算。

No.

我认为这是一次过度扩张的不幸案例。

I think it was an unfortunate example of overreach.

说实话，我很遗憾这么说，因为我认识很多ICE特工，他们工作非常努力，也非常敬业。

Actually, I'm sorry to say because I know a lot of ICE agents, and they work very hard, and they're very dedicated.

但他们被领导的方式、这次行动的执行方式、边境巡逻队涌入ICE后不同的运作节奏、行动规模，以及我们在大量视频中看到的滥用行为，这根本不是一次规范的执法行动。

But the way they were led, the way they conducted this operation, the influx of border patrol into ICE and their different operational tempo, the size of the operation, the abuses that we saw on lots of videos, this was not a model law enforcement operation.

你觉得他们在领导方式上出了什么问题？

What do you think went wrong in terms of how they were led?

我认为问题始于白宫下达的每天逮捕3000人的指令，以及领导层——不仅来自白宫，也来自部门高层——所使用的措辞和表达方式。

I think it begins with the direction from the White House to somehow do 3,000 arrests per day and the kind of the verbiage, the wording used by the leadership by not only from the White House, but from the leadership of the department.

这削弱了专业执法机构，特别是联邦执法机构本应履行的职责和行为准则，还污名化了整个社区、其民选领导人、公民以及移民群体。

It just deemphasized what professional law enforcement, federal law enforcement should do and how they should act, demonized an entire community, its elected leaders, its citizens, its immigrant population.

而且，你知道，他们还为自己在抗议事件中的行为找借口，没有采取措施缓和局势。

And then, you know, they garb how they conducted themselves, how they didn't deescalate in protest situations.

如果他们真的在开展移民执法行动，本可以采取很多更好的做法。

There are lots of things that could have been done so much better if they were really doing an immigration enforcement initiative.

你希望明尼苏达州当时采取什么不同的做法？

What do you wish had been done instead in Minnesota?

首先，我不会派将近三千名联邦特工进入一个警察部门只有六百名警员、开车二十分钟就能横穿全城的城市。

Well, number one, I wouldn't have sent in almost three thousand federal agents into a city where the police department only has 600 officers, into a city that you could drive across in twenty minutes.

所以，仅仅是这支庞大队伍的规模、对社区的过度渗透，以及与州和地方执法部门缺乏协调，就已经问题重重。

So that just the size of the force and the saturation of the community and the lack of coordination with state and local law enforcement.

我担心这会对未来联邦、州和地方执法部门之间的协调产生连锁负面影响。

I'm afraid this will have spillover effects to federal, state, local law enforcement coordination in many other contexts moving forward.

移民活动人士曾批评奥巴马总统为‘驱逐之王’。

Immigration activists have criticized president Obama as the quote deporter in chief.

在两届任期内，奥巴马政府驱逐了超过300万人。

Over two terms, the Obama administration deported more than 3,000,000 people.

因此，对于看到300万这个数字，并将其与最近在明尼阿波利斯、洛杉矶、芝加哥和华盛顿特区的移民局逮捕行动进行比较的人们来说，区别在哪里？

So for people looking at that number 3,000,000 and then comparing it to the recent ICE arrests in Minneapolis, LA, Chicago, and DC, what is the difference?

没错。

Right.

是的，当奥巴马总统被戏称为——尽管他本人很不乐意——‘驱逐之王’时，我正担任部长。

So yes, I was secretary when president Obama was nicknamed much to his chagrin, I think the deporter in chief.

但这里有一些不同之处。

But here are some differences.

首先，我们重点关注那些有犯罪记录的人、对公共安全构成已知威胁的人，以及最近越境的人，这样他们还没在境内安顿下来就被遣返。

One is we focused on those with criminal convictions, those who were known threats to public safety, and those who were recent border crossers so that they were deported before they'd entered the country and had already settled here.

这些情况占了我们遣返人数的绝大多数，而不是所有人。

And that comprised the vast majority of our numbers, not everybody.

我们确实进行了这些全国性的大规模行动等等。

We did, you know, these are these are large operations nationally, etcetera.

因此，有些移民被逮捕时并没有严重犯罪记录，等等，但我们的重点始终放在这些优先事项上。

So there were immigrants picked up who didn't have serious convictions and what have you, but the focus was on those priorities.

培训方式也不同。

The training was different.

在培训中，我们强调优先事项的概念。

In the training, we focused on the notion of priorities.

我们关注宪法权利和公民权利。

We focused on constitutional rights, civil rights.

我们还注重如何化解冲突和应对抗议场面。

We focused on the way to deescalate and to deal with protest situations.

据我了解，现在的培训对所有这些方面的重视程度都降低了。

And as I understand it, the current training has a reduced emphasis on all of those things.

目前，抗议者甚至呼吁解散移民与海关执法局（ICE），但最近，几位竞选公职的国会进步派人士也呼吁解散ICE或国土安全部。

Right now, there are calls to even dismantle ICE from protesters, but recently, several progressives in congress are running for office have called for dismantling ICE or DHS.

你怎么看待这些呼声？

What do you make of those calls?

是的

Yeah.

我不同意。

I I I disagree.

移民执法是我们国家主权的重要组成部分，这在很多方面都很重要。

Immigration enforcement is an important parcel of, you know, our national sovereignty, and it's important for a number of reasons.

但由于这项工作难度大，人们意见分歧，而且这个国家所有非法移民的情况各不相同，因此需要判断力、裁量权和专业性。

But because it's tough, because people are divided, and because all immigrants in this country who are illegal are not the same, it requires judgment, discretion, and professionalism.

不幸的是，我们最近在正在进行的行动中并未看到这些品质。

And, unfortunately, we didn't we have not seen that recently in the operations that are being conducted.

国土安全部目前处于关闭状态。

The Department of Homeland Security is shut down for the moment.

你对国土安全部长期关闭有任何担忧吗？

Do you have any concerns about a prolonged shutdown to DHS?

有。

Yes.

我非常担心国土安全部长期停摆。

I have a a real concern about prolonged shutdown of DHS.

由于国会已在那项宏伟的拨款法案中为移民与海关执法局和海关与边境保护局提供了资金，他们将继续开展行动。

Now because congress gave ICE and CBP all this money in the big beautiful bill, they're gonna continue their operations.

停摆实际上不会影响他们，但国土安全部超过90%的员工在停摆期间仍必须继续工作。

The shutdown is not really going to affect them, but the vast majority of DHS, over 90% of the employees, will still have to work during a shutdown.

特勤局仍需继续工作。

The Secret Service still has to work.

海岸警卫队仍需继续工作。

The Coast Guard still has to work.

运输安全管理局仍需工作，但他们将无法拿到工资。

TSA still has to work, and they won't be getting paid.

我可以告诉你，普通的运输安全管理局员工都是月光族。

And I can tell you, the average TSA worker lives paycheck to paycheck.

他们的工资并不高。

They don't get paid a lot.

所以当他们开始错过工资时，这对部门员工造成了真正的伤害。

So when they start missing paychecks, that's real harm to the employees of the department.

这对士气也造成了极大的打击。

And it's terrible for morale as well.

这是前国土安全部部长珍妮特·纳波利塔诺。

That's Janet Napolitano, the former secretary of the Department of Homeland Security.

非常感谢你和我交谈。

Thank you so much for talking to me.

谢谢。

Thank you.

本集由亨利·拉森和凯·麦克纳米制作。

This episode was produced by Henry Larson and Kai McNamee.

由莎拉·罗宾斯剪辑。

It was edited by Sarah Robbins.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·颜根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这是来自NPR的《就此而言》。

It's Consider This from NPR.

我是艾米莉·奎ong。

I'm Emily Kwong.